tonight's lead, breaking news from washington. we are awaiting a live briefing on today's dramatic car chase and shooting on capitol hill. that briefing expected to include updates from the secret service, d.c. police, and capitol hill police, talking about the incident today that started at the white house and ended in gunfire on capitol hill. a tv crew captured part of that chase. >> oh. [ gunfire ] >> the suspect in the car, a woman, was shot and killed by police a few minutes later. for witnesses the violence shattered a quiet day in the nation's capital. >> police surrounded the vehicle, had their guns drawn,

had the passenger's door open, telling the person to get out. at that point the sedan slammed in reverse, smacked the cruiser behind it, did a 180, and peeled off on the south side of the capitol and disappeared around there. a couple minutes later we heard a bang on the opposite side of the capitol. >> after the gunfire people working on capitol hill heard this public announcement. >> capitol police. there is a report of gunfire on capitol hill. if you are in an office building, shelter in place. close, lock, and november away from doors and windows. if you are outside of an office building, seek cover away from the area. >> one capitol hill police officer was hurt. apparently when he was struck by the suspect's car. he was airlifted to the hospital. officials say there was a young child in the car with the woman during the police chase. no word on that child's condition. joining me now is nbc's luke russert, who was on capitol hill

when all this occurred. nbc's investigative correspondent michael isikoff. and eugene o'donnell, professor of law and police study at john jay college of criminal justice. michael, as we await this briefing, what do we know about this woman, and how did it all start? >> well, first of all, we have not -- we are not using her name right now because -- until police say so. we're not going to report her name. but she is a 34-year-old woman who lived in connecticut. and police are searching her home. what possible motivation she had at this point we don't know. obviously, there are going to be questions about whether there was any kind of mental health problems in her background just as there was with the washington navy yard shooter. but i think what's significant at this point, which nbc news was the first to report here, is she did not fire any shots in

this incident. all the shots came from law enforcement. she did not have a gun. >> she was unarmed? >> she was unarmed. now, that doesn't mean that the police who fired the shots were unjustified in doing -- >> hold on one minute, michael. let's go live to the press briefing. we'll come back to you, michael. ? . >> at an outer perimeter checkpoint of the white house at 15th street and e street northwest. the vehicle then fled east on pennsylvania avenue. there were multiple crime scenes as a result of the vehicle fleeing. there were multiple shots fired at several different locations. this case is under investigation by the metropolitan police department with assistance from the u.s. capitol police, secret service, federal bureau of investigation. that's all i have, but i'll take a few questions. >> excuse me, sir. is there any way this could have been an accident, whether or not she didn't know where she was going -- >> this incident is under

investigation. but at this point an unauthorized vehicle attempted to gain access at a very outer perimeter checkpoint. i'll stress that. this was an outer perimeter checkpoint of the white house. beyond that checkpoint there are multiple other checkpoints that someone would have to go through. but there is this unauthorized vehicle approached the checkpoint. our officers acted appropriately. the vehicle then fled and in fleeing struck one of our officers as it departed that initial scene. >> what is the ethnicity of the deceased? >> i don't think that's being released at this point. >> [ inaudible ]. >> that is also under investigation. but uniformed division officers and capitol police officers. >> where were the shots fired? were the shots fired at the white house? >> there were no shots fired at the white house. these other locations is where shots were fired. and that -- again, it's all under investigation. >> when were the shots fired --

>> -- the officer that was struck? >> i'll let the chief of capitol police talk about that. i'll turn it over at this point to the -- >> can you identify yourself again? >> ed donovan from secret service. chief? >> good evening. kim dine, chief of the united states capitol police. you've already heard the preliminary information regarding what happened at the white house. subsequent to that, our officers attempted to make a stop at garfield circle. the vehicle eluded them and continued on up behind us up 1st and constitution avenue. it appears our officer in an attempt to pursue the vehicle struck a barricade. ultimately, the vehicle stopped at 2nd and maryland northeast. where we were able to capture the suspect. >> do you have the status of the officer that's injured? >> i personally spoke with the officer and he's doing well. he's a 23-year veteran of the united states capitol police, and he's doing very well.

thank you for having. >> is he at the hospital or -- how seriously injured is he? >> he was at the hospital when i spoke with him, but he's going to be fine. >> how was he injured? >> i don't have his specific injuries. >> how was he injured? >> his vehicle apparently struck the barricade behind us. it appears all around the capitol the security worked exceptionally well. we did have a very brief lockdown of the capitol, and we were able to kind of lock things down and clear the event extremely quickly. keeping everybody safe. notifying everybody of what was going on. and we actually cleared the scene rather quickly. as you know, we had a briefing probably within the hour of what was going on. we obviously are investigating the incident. we -- i mean multiple law enforcement agencies. and this appears to be an isolated singular matter.

at in point no nexus to terrorism. thank you. >> can you rule out terrorism? >> pardon me? >> how can you rule out terrorism? >> from the facts and circumstances we have thus far it appears there's no relation -- >> is the deceased of somali descent? >> are you asking me or telling me? >> somali descent? an african-american suspect. >> we're actually not talking about the suspect at this time. >> [ inaudible ]. >> we are not releasing any information on the suspect at this -- >> how did she get past -- >> what is the motive in. >> can you talk about the child in the car and where the child is now? >> my understanding is there was a 1-year-old child in the car. i believe, actually, one of our officers initially rescued the child and took the child to initial medical care in the vicinity here. and then the child was taken to the hospital.

>> [ inaudible ]. >> pardon me? >> the barricades, did she get through them or -- >> we're obviously still investigating that. let me turn it over to chief lanier from the metropolitan police department. >> was the child a boy or a girl? >> i do not have that information. >> was the suspect armed -- >> let me try to answer a couple of questions real quick. i'll tell you up front there are certain questions we're not going to answer. we're not going to answer any questions about the suspect at this point. all the information that we're giving su preliminary. there is some video that has been released. we'd caution you that that video only captures the incident -- a small part of this incident. there is things that were not captured on video before and after, obviously. as of right now we do know that there were shots fired in at least two locations during this pursuit. the pursuit was from 15th and e down to 100 block of maryland avenue. so the pursuit went several blocks and involved both united states secret service and united

states capitol police. right now the suspect in the vehicle we do know was struck by gunfire and at this point has been pronounced. the suspect has been pronounced at this point. the child is approximately a year old and is in good condition. and in protective custody. right now it is all very preliminary. we don't know which officers fired, how many rounds were fired. i will say that both at the white house and at the capitol the security perimeters worked. they did exactly what they were supposed to do, and they stopped a suspect from breaching the security perimeters both in a vehicle -- in a vehicle at both locations. i would say both of the -- united states secret service and capitol police officers from what i have seen so far in this investigation acted heroically in trying to stop this suspect from entering the security perimeters at both locations. we have two officers that are injured, one from capitol and one from secret service. fortunately, both of them will

be okay. but two officers injured just doing their job. so i will take a few questions, but i'm not going to answer any questions about the investigation as pertains to evidence or pertains to the suspect at this point. >> [ inaudible ]. >> the suspect, the last gunfire was in the 100 block of maryland avenue, and the suspect was pronounced sometime later. >> chief, do you think this could have been an accident, or do you think it was intentional? >> all the information that we have right now is this does not appear to be in any way an accident. this was a lengthy pursuit. there were multiple vehicles that were rammed. there was officers that were struck and two security perimeters that were attempted to be breached. so it does not appear in any way this is an accident. >> [ inaudible ]. >> we don't know that yet. i'm sorry? >> why aren't you releasing more information about her? >> we're not going to release any information about the suspect or anybody else. first of all, we would make next of kin notifications before we release that information. >> was she armed?

>> we're not going to comment on any information regarding evidence at this point. >> -- from the white house that this person traveled to get to maryland avenue. where was the car going? where were the different places the shots were fired? >> i can tell you there was two places where shots were fired we're aware of at this point. this is still preliminary. the pursuit started at 15th and e street, came down pennsylvania avenue. at some point entered garr fils circle. there were shots fired after the suspect vehicle rammed into a secret service vehicle. and then the vehicle continued on 1st street to constitution avenue, up constitution, around the barriers, and then onto the 100 block of maryland avenue, where the vehicle crashed and additional shots were fired there. >> -- around the barrier? >> we're not sure yet exactly. there was exact made with the barriers we know at least one vehicle, we don't know if there was other vehicles, but we know the barriers did go up and we know at least one vehicle did

strike the barriers. we really won't know that yet until we finish the reconstruction. >> [ inaudible ]. >> right now the preliminary information is that both agencies had officers that fired. i'll take two more questions and then we're done. >> who's the lead of the investigation? >> the metropolitan police department will be investigating this case. we are getting support from fbi, capitol police, and secret service. >> any verbal exchange with the suspect? >> i can't comment on that at this point. i'll take one more question. >> how did it it ultimately end? she crashed? >> the crash in the 100 block of maryland avenue, and at that point, this is very close to the security booth, security officers from the capitol, there was another round of gunfire at that point. so that's where the pursuit terminated. >> how can terrorism be ruled out? it's so preliminary. >> all we're giving you right now is just the facts we know of what has happened. i'm not ruling anything out at this point. i can tell you i'm pretty confident this is not an accident. all right. thank you. >> well, what i said was it does not appear to be. and i just want to reiterate the

heroic work of the united states capitol police officers at multiple locations in addition to rescuing the child out of the vehicle. at this location and at 2nd and maryland northeast our officers kept the perimeter secure and responded quickly and heroically and locked the scenes down. thank you very much. >> any more briefings? >> well, you've just seen a live briefing by representatives, spokesman for the secret service as well as the capitol hill police, and of course chief lanier of the metro police in washington, d.c. let's go back to our panel, michael isikoff and luke russert and eugene o'donnell. mike, you were telling us about -- we've heard now from the three levels of law enforcement. it's an ongoing investigation. there seems to be no terrorism

at least at this point. they're seeing no connection to terrorism. and there's a 1-year-old child, as you were talking when the briefing started. 1-year-old child in the car. they are not identifying any relations between the child and the suspect. am i right, michael? >> well, they didn't in the briefing and they did make pains to point out the police did rescue the 1-year-old child from the vehicle and provided medical care. i think there was -- they kind of -- they did provide some information about where the shots are fired. they said at two locations, one garfield circle, which is in front of the capitol, and then later a few blocks away on maryland avenue. but as we indicated before, although they didn't exactly specify this, all the shots

appear to have come from law enforcement, not the woman involved. chief lanier of the washington police department made a point of saying that the officers involved acted heroically to protect both the white house and the capitol. so clearly from the standpoint of law enforcement agencies at this point, the shots fired were entirely justified. the point i was going to make just before the briefing started is as one law ebb enforcement source said to me, she may not have had a gun but she was using the qucar as a weapon. so i think that's going to be a big factor in the inevitable investigations into what happened here. >> let me go to you, uj yoen o'donnell. what did you hear in this briefing? >> a little bit of confusion, i have to say. this is what you would expect unfortunately in this situation. you've got so many different agencies with different roles, different protocols, different missions. and you know, one of the worst fears you'd have in a situation like this is trying to get everyone on the same page. even in the news conference you could tell people were kind of

crossing each other and commenting. so i think this is one case where you want to not jump to conclusions. you want to take a deep breath, see how the facts come in. >> now, there seem to be questions about there was no shots fired from the suspect but both chief lanier of metro police as well as the spokesman for capitol hill police stressed that there was a long pursuit. and going to michael isikoff's comment that someone gave him that they're saying it was the vehicle itself could have been used as a weapon. so this may or may not be a factor as they investigate the fact that this suspect may have been unarmed. >> the portion of this that we seem to be able to see on the video does suggest the car's being aimed at officers. even the most restrained police departments, when you have no choice, will authorize deadly force. it adoes appear from that news conference there's a secondary event where there's additional shooting. >> let me go to you, luke

russert. you were actually on capitol hill when this happened. give us a sense of what happened, how people were responding. you hear gunfire in this kind of world that we live in today, no one -- not knowing anything other than hearing gunfire, what happened, luke, and what was going on in the minds of the people there on the hill? >> it was a harrowing experience, reverend al. around 2:20 p.m. i was in my office and the window overlooks the west front of the capitol. that's where the president is inaugurated. where all this happened. i heard four loud booms. i then saw capitol police draw their weapons and start running toward the noises they heard. then they instructed tourists who were on the grounds of the capitol where this incident had occurred to get down on their stomachs and stay down. and then instructed them to evacuate, to run away from the incident towards independence avenue. so i was able to see a few dozen tourists, men, women, and children all sprinting to get out of harm's way.

when we first originally heard the gunshots, we didn't know if it was a shootout, if someone had shot at the police. we at that time did not know it was actually law enforcement doing it now. the capitol went into lockdown mode. something significant happened. the action that was going on on the house floor, you can say the people's business, the business of government came to a halt. at 2:30 members of congress actually had to shelter in place on the house floor, and some staffers in the speaker's lobby were pushed on the house floor because it's a windowless area that's more secure. so the capitol police did all this. congress was basically delayed on the house side for an hour. until this became a less tense situation. and i will say one thing that i've been up here for a while that i've never seen at all is a helicopter landed on the west front on the mall for folks who visited d.c. that was the medevac police helicopter which took this officer out. that was also something which i think rattled some folks. it showed the degree of

seriousness of this situation. but now it's back to normal. the road behind me is -- one walks to go from the house to the senate, vice versa. that's now back open to pedestrian traffic. and you saw the barrier system worked. there is not a fence around the capitol, reverend al. this is basically officers respond quickly if there's an issue. in this case they did. and the perimeter system seems to have worked. >> all right, luke russert, michael isikoff, and eugene o'donnell, thanks for your time tonight. we'll be right back. i get out a. except when it's too cold. like the last three weekends. asthma doesn't affect my job... you missed the meeting again last week! it doesn't affect my family. your coughing woke me up again. i wish you'd take me to the park. i don't use my rescue inhaler a lot... depends on what you mean by a lot. coping with asthma isn't controlling it. test your level of control at asthma.com, then talk to your doctor. there may be more you could do for your asthma.

is that really how low politics has gotten in this country? apparently so. joining me now is cynthia tucker. thanks for coming on the show tonight. >> good to be here, reverend. >> blaming the president for violent rhetoric? i mean, what is this congressman talking about, cynthia? >> well, his hashtag was disgusting. he's disgusting. you know, president obama so rarely shows any anger.

there are many democrats who wish he would in fact show some rhetoric that's a bit more inflammatory. but he hasn't. about the strongest thing he's said is he's exasperated. as are we all, by the way. so what violent rhetoric was griffin talking about? here we have a woman who apparently was troubled. we have no -- nothing that suggests there is any connection between what she did and what is going on at the capitol. but griffin couldn't resist taking a pot shot at the president. >> and then let me show you what he later issued. he issued this statement later. "no one but the shooter is to blame. but as i have been saying for days, we all need to choose our words wisely because violent rhetoric only coarsens our

culture, creates an atmosphere of insist, and is not helpful. i tweeted out of emotion but agree that the timing was not helpful." not exactly an apology. first of all, the man called names, #disgusting, and now he talks about he just spoke out of emotion and what it's doing to our culture. you have what we don't know what the attack was, and he immediate ly blames it on the president, senator schumer, and congresswoman former speaker pelosi, not even knowing what he's talking about, not even knowing in it was some, god forbid, terrorist attack. it would have been those. it could have been those were the ones that were being targeted. >> absolutely. and reverend, i wish he would take this message of insicivili

because to his colleagues in the house of representatives because that's where all this incivility is coming from. they call the president the most awful names, the vilest things. among that little group of tea party-driven representatives, if -- you know, they go out and practic practically persuade their voters that the president is satan's own, you know, handmaiden. and so i wish he would take that message of incivility back to them. but reverend, griffin's message wasn't even the most appalling thing i heard from republicans. the most appalling was a representative from texas who attacked a park service ranger because a memorial was shut down. >> we're going to talk about that. >> now, who shut that down? he did. >> yep. we're going to talk about that.

thank you, cynthia tucker, for your time this evening. >> good to be here, rev. >> and coming up, just as she said, a republican congressman caught on tape confronting and blaming an innocent park ranger for the shutdown. it's as low as it gets. and is speaker boehner caving? some big news tonight. he's talking about a looming default. stay with us. (vo) you are a business pro. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro.

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...it never leaves home sweet home. there's a deep, rich, enduring color for everything. including where you come from. benjamin moore. for everything that matters. republicans have shown they aren't too great at governing. but one thing they are good at, blaming other people for things they've done. just watch texas congressman randy nogerbauer blame a park ranger for keeping people from the world war ii memorial. >> how do you look at them and say how do you -- deny them

access? i don't get that. >> it's difficult. >> well, it should be difficult. >> it is difficult. i'm sorry, sir. >> the park service should be ashamed of themselves. >> i'm not ashamed. >> well, you should be. >> ask those questions of the people who aren't passing a budget. that's who you need to ask these questions too. >> this woman is doing her job just like me. i'm a 30-year veteran. i'm out of work. >> the reason you are is because mr. reid -- >> no. it's because the government won't do its job and pass a bungt. >> she should be ashamed because she's doing her job? even though the congressman isn't doing his? these republican lawmakers don't care about their work. they just care about blaming other people for their shutdown. kentucky senators mitch mcconnell and rand paul were even caught whispering about that. >> do you have a second? >> i'm all wired up here. >> i just don't see an end. i just go over and over again, we're willing to compromise. we're willing to negotiate. i think -- i don't think they poll tested we won't negotiate.

i think it's awful for them to say that over and over again. >> yeah, i do too. and i just came back from a two-hour meeting with them and that was -- that was basically the same view privately as it was publicly. >> i think if we keep saying we wanted to defund it, we fought for, that but now we're willing to compromise, i think they can't -- we're going to -- i think -- well, i know we don't want to be here but we're going to win this. >> wow. millions of people are hurting because of this shutdown, but they think they're winning? i'm glad they have their talking points in order. and today president obama told them to knock it off. >> so i want everybody to understand this. there are enough republicans and democrats in the house of representatives today that if the speaker of the house john boehner simply let the bill get on the floor for an up or down vote, every congressman could vote their conscience, the shutdown would end today.

take a vote. stop this farce. and end this shutdown right now. >> the american people agree. stop this farce. and here's a tip. don't blame park rangers for your dirty work. joining me now, a former governor, ed rendell, democrat of pennsylvania, and goldie taylor. thank you both for being here. >> thank you. >> governor, blaming a park ranger for a closed memorial. i mean-v you ever seen anything like this? >> no. it's the most hypocritical thing i've seen in politics, and politics is a hypocritical business, as you know, rev. but i've never seen anything -- i've never seen anything that reaches this dimension. perhaps the only other thing i can think of is when they voted against stimulus and then showed up to take credit for the ribbon cuttings for stimulus projects. but this is disgraceful. that park ranger was doing the best she could. and you know, these guys should

be back to work. and this idea that i heard michele bachmann and the others say, that nobody's getting hurt. what about the head start kids? what about the wick families? you know, they're just ignoring stuff. it's really disgraceful. >> but to be clear, governor, the park is closed because of their shutdown. the park ranger -- >> sure. >> -- is only doing the job that they forced them to do because they voted to shut down the park, shut down the federal government, which includes the park. how do you cause something and then go to the people that have to guard what you caused and act like they did it? i mean, it's amazing. >> it's ridiculous. it's like the person who shoots his mother and father and then asks the court for mercy because he's an orphan. it's ridiculous. >> now, goldie, a lot of republican congress members, including steve king from iowa, have been doing photo ops at this world war ii memorial they

closed, and today a protester called steve king of iowa out on his hypocrisy. take a look at this. >> pass the budget, congressman. >> coming here on the dpthe -- >> pass the budget, congressman. why are you making -- >> their children and -- >> why have you come down here for a political opportunity, for a camera shot, sir? the real patriots are the veterans who came down here. put your tail between your legs, go back up on the hill, and do your work! >> goldie, what kind of shape would we be in if the republicans spent as much time doing their work as they were doing photo ops? >> you know, those members of congress have no business at our war memorials or anywhere else today. where they belong is their butts in their seats on the house floor voting to reopen this government. that's where they belong.

photo ops and all of those kinds of things, and i even saw them give capitol hill police officers a standing ovation today, which they so richly deserve. but what they deserve even more than that is a paycheck. so to believe that these people are out here grandstanding, putting out press releases, raising money on this government shutdown is some of the most diabolical things that we've seen in a very, very long time come from this capitol hill. and that is saying a lot. >> let me go back to another point with this, governor. senator rand paul was caught on tape just after going on tv talking about how he avoided responsibility and how republicans will "win this." let's watch how he did that. >> i just did cnn and i just go over and over again, we're willing to compromise. >> we've been offering some compromises. >> we're also willing to compromise. >> if we keep saying we wanted to defund, it we fought for, that but now we're willing to compromise on this. >> we lost on defunding.

i fought for defunding but we lost. the president wants 100%, though. and should he not need to negotiate to get somewhere in the middle in order to get a compromise? >> we're willing to negotiate. >> i can't understand why a compromise or negotiation would be bad. >> governor, he's talking about overturning a law he's voted on. that was a law that was a central issue in the campaign last year that was upheld by the supreme court. talking about a law. i mean, do you think he can get away with this with the american people? >> no. and i can't believe he's that dumb to think he can. look, the american people understand that the affordable health care act has nothing to do with a budget resolution. that's clear. it's clear in all the polls. and they can talk all they want. nobody thinks the president should compromise on the affordable health care act. whether they like it or not, they don't think this type of blackmail extortion is correct and proper. and that's where these guys don't seem to get it. they're never going to win

because they've chosen the wrong way to go about doing this. let's pass the bill. let's pass the clean cr. let's get the government back working. and then you can try to amend obama care all you want. but the two things aren't tied together. and until they understand that they're going to keep making fools of themselves. >> now, let me ask you this, goldie. "the new york times" reported stayed that speaker boehner won't let the nation default. he quote -- this is a quote. "he has told colleagues that he is determined to prevent a federal default and is willing to pass a measure through a combination of republican and democratic votes." so he'd be willing to use democrats to pass a bill to raise the debt ceiling, but he won't do that for the shutdown. goldie, what do you make of this? is boehner cracking here? >> well, i think he understands just how catastrophic, you know, not -- us breaching the debt ceiling would absolutely be. and i think he also understands

the level of resolve that harry reid, nancy pelosi, and this president have shown over recent days. he understands that and he's going to break the hastert rule. he bought to break that rule right now. he ought to get some moral courage and put republicans and democrats together on the floor of the house tonight and reopen this government. he can show that courage right now. and then we can talk about how to tweak and make the affordable care act better later. the fact of the matter is this law has been vetted by the supreme court. it has been vetted by the american people. it has been vetted by both houses of congress. and it is the law of the land. >> i see you're nodding your head, governor, and a little amen i even heard. >> absolutely. goldie is so right. and the irony of this all is that the act is rolling out. its implementation is rolling out. and americans are flocking by the millions to sign up. and that ought to be a message to the republicans as well. but look, goldie's right. it is time for us to act as a country. country first, partisan politics

second. let's do this. it's not that hard. >> governor ed rendell and goldie taylor, thank you both for your time. >> thank you, reverend sharpton. >> straight ahead, more reports of cancer patients unable to get the help they need because of the gop shutdown. that's next. so ally bank really has no hidden fees on savings accounts? no hidden fees. it's just that i'm worried about you know "hidden things." ok, why's that? well uhhh... hey daddy, what's your job? daddy's a uhh florist. are you really a florist? dad, why are there shovels in the trunk? there's no shovels in my trunk. i see shovels... you don't see no shovels. just am. well, it's true. at ally there are no hidden fees. not one. that's nice. no hidden fees, no worries. ally bank. your money needs an ally. he was a matted messiley in a small cage. ng day. so that was our first task, was getting him to wellness.

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office. people like leo finn, a father of three. won't get access to a last-chance treatment for his cancer. because of the government shutdown. >> this could be the miracle drug. you know, this could be the one that, you know, saved me, that i was going to be able to walk my daughter down the aisle. i'm just mad that the government can walk away from people and we don't matter. it is what it seems. >> that's the gop agenda right now. people don't matter. this shutdown has even stopped therapy dogs at the n.i.h. from comforting children suffering from cancer. we're seeing this kind of pain all over the country. >> this is going to be very, very hard on us. >> families coming in were in shock. many have to work or go to school during the day. so to them head start was not a luxury, it was a necessity. >> even if we end up getting reimbursed for the time off, it's too late. we need money now. >> something like seven-month-old harper's $300

emergency room visit this weekend for an ear infection could be a financial disaster. >> without this food pantry i wouldn't have anything to eat. they're not thinking about us. the people that really needs it. >> outside the gop bubble people are hurting. but for the right-wing extremists the shutdown is cause for celebration. >> we're really very energized today. we're very strong. this is about the happiest i've seen members in a long time. >> most americans realize the government shutdown has no impact on their daily life. >> it's not going to be the end of their life even if you're under assistance from the federal government. i believe no one is going to starve in arkansas because of the sthutdown. >> each day that passes the damage from this shutdown gets worse and worse. republicans better open their eyes and see what's happening. joining me now is e.j. dionne and crystal ball. thank you both for being here.

e.j., conservatives in washington act as if people aren't getting hurt. are they so out of touch or how do you explain it? >> well, i think for some conservatives there's just this deep ideological sense that government doesn't do much good anyway, so we're not going to miss it. well, people in the wick program, women, infants, and children, 9 million mothers and babies, basically are going to start losing benefits in about a week if this shuts down. people who use head start programs. those are going to slowly shut down. which is bad for a lot of reasons including for working poor people. but if they're not worried about that, what about the small business administration and various kinds of help to small businesses that won't go on? the government touches us sometimes in very direct ways that we know about. but also touches the economy in a lot of other ways. not paying 2 million people is not good for the economy. >> you know, crystal, there's a

woman who's the wife of a fallen new mexico firefighter. she isn't able to get her husband's death benefits because of the shutdown. watch this. >> heidi not only lost her husband. she also gave birth to their daughter. >> now the federal government shutdown has frozen her late husband's federal benefits. >> i had a meeting set for benefits tomorrow. >> heidi was supposed to finalize her late husband's federal benefits. but the meeting set for tomorrow has been canceled. she's told it could be as much as four weeks before token's benefits arrive. >> four weeks would be critical. >> i mean, this is the widow of someone who gave his life helping others. >> it's heartbreaking. >> protecting others. >> and i think because a lot of republicans, they aren't in touch with these people and because a lot of the people who are suffering most as usual are those who have the least voice in our democracy, who have the least power, and so their voices

aren't heard particularly by the republican party. but i think there were a lot of folks on the republican side of the aisle who thought this shutdown was going to show the american people how irrelevant the federal government was, how much waste there was, how much you could live without it. and i think it's had the exact opposite effect. the longer the shutdown goes on, the more people realize how important the federal government is and what good work it does do. >> you know, e.j., it's not just individuals that are hurting. reuters reports that more and more manufacturers are reporting problems with delays and furloughs. >> in fact, we forget how much government money flows into the private sector, and so people have jobs in the private sector that are supported largely or at least in part by government dollars. and i think it's worth noting that this shutdown is not

popular with the vast majority of americans. there are plenty of americans who aren't pro-government liberals who just don't like the idea of government disappearing, who are fully aware of what the government contributes to the economy as a whole and often to their own lives and their communities. >> yeah. and you know, let me tell you something along those lines that's of concern, krystal. tropical storm karen, which is forming near the gulf of mexico, may make landfall this weekend. fema and the national hurricane center have both been affected by the shutdown. this is just another reminder of where government is important. >> that's exactly right. and the longer that the shutdown goes on, the more examples that we're going to have like that. and i think as e.j. was pointing out, people already realize and were already very much against shutting the government down. and let's not forget what this is over. it's over the affordable care act. it's over obama care. it's over providing health insurance to millions of americans who desperately need it. that is what they're trying to

prevent. and to do so they're willing to take the whole government hostage and threaten the very constitutional balance on which our democracy rests. >> isn't that the whole point, e.j.? we're talking about the whole government shutting down because people are going to be insured that wasn't insured by a bill that was already made law and upheld by the supreme court. i mean, when you think of what we're going through all of this danger and potential danger, for something that's already been debated, already been voted, and that's helping people that had not been helped, it's ludicrous. >> the government's being shut down to take health insurance away from about 25 million people, maybe a little more. and i think it was very interesting that the shutdown coincided with opening day for the exchanges. and one of the things opening day showed -- they had some problems. but the fact is a whole lot of

americans really want to take advantage of the affordable care act. and i think it shows they really want to shut this down before americans take advantage of it because they'll never want it to go away. and they've acknowledged that. and they've already missed the deadline, and it's now starting to take effect. >> but when you see, krystal, the tape we showed of mcconnell and paul talking and they're being overheard in the mike where they're kind of like plotting on the talking points and saying we can win this, it seems all like brinkmanship, like it's no consideration at all for what it's doing for the country, what it's going to do for the economy, and what it's doing to real ordinary people that i've been showing tonight. >> it's incredibly cynical. and you can see how cynical and ridiculous their strategy is by the fact that one of their last gambits before they shut down the government was to try to demand that health care

subsidies to their own staffers be taken away. and this is something that boehner be working behind the scenes to get. and now he's going to shut down the government over something he fought to get. i mean, that's how cynical they are here and how just transparently vacuous their strategy has been. >> and maybe republican staff members will join a union because i just found that astonishing, that they were going to pull that health insurance out from them, their subsidies. >> krystal ball, e.j. dionne, thank you both for your time. >> thanks for having me. >> good to be with you. >> and remember, you can catch krystal on "the cycle," weekdays at 3:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. still ahead, new information about today's deadly car chase and shooting on capitol hill. stay with us.

we're back with more on today's breaking news. law enforcement sources have identified the woman shot and killed in that chase through washington, d.c. today. her name is miriam carey, a 34-year-old dentalal hygienist from stamford, connecticut. we're also learning she was the subject of an extensive police

and fbi investigation in connecticut. but still no word on her motive. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] build anything with the new toyota tundra. toyota. let's go places. with the new toyota tundra. if yand you're talking toevere rheuyour rheumatologistike me, about trying or adding a biologic. this is humira, adalimumab. this is humira working to help relieve my pain. this is humira helping me through the twists and turns.

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the government shutdown continues. i want to talk for a minute about political courage. as of today 19 republicans in congress are now pushing to fund the government without strings attached, without making it about the president's health care law. the hope is that others will join them and that they'll become unlikely allies with democrats. so we'll have members of different parties working together to open our government. in my new book "the rejected stone" i write about the need for all of us to be aware of where we are going, not who we're going with.

>> being open to unlikely allies talks about how i learned and watched others learn that something your goal will attract people that you don't normally walk the same path with. and you must always be more committed to the end goal than to those that travel along the way. if you have a destination, you may find some fellow travelers who may be different than you, may come from a totally different perspective than you, but for a while could travel the same road. always keep your eye on the prize. don't worry about who's going to walk with you on the path. >> i'm really excited about the book. if you'd like to read an excerpt from "the rejected stone," please go to our facebook page, facebook.com/politicsnation. on the page you will also find details about the book signing i'll be doing in new york city next week. it will be this tuesday, october 8th. the day the book comes out.

i will be at barnes & noble's on 5th avenue at 12:00 noon. that's 45th street and 5th avenue. i'm looking forward to seeing all of "politics nation." thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. violence in a stalled city. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews up in boston. we're going to get to the growing anger over the government shutdown in just a minute. the growing anger at ted cruz. the back room republican fight over whether to make this an even bigger battle over the debt ceiling. and the stunts that republicans are pulling to make the gullible out there believe that it's the democrats who closed down the government.