that couldn't go to good colleges, kids going to drop out of school. reagan didn't have the experience. he would have ended up like tip. that was the difference. >> for more of the interview. check out the last word's facebook page. i'm alex wagner in for lawrence o'donnell. catch my show "now" week days on msnbc at noon eastern. violence in a stalled city. let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews up in boston. we're going to get to the growing anger over the government shutdown in just a minute. the growing anger at ted cruz. the back room republican fight over whether to make this an even bigger battle over the debt ceiling. and the stunts that republicans are pulling to make the gullible out there believe that it's the democrats who closed down the government.

but let me start tonight with this. the government shutdown was shattered just hours ago by the death of a woman who just minutes before that had crashed her car into the white house gate. a city already tensed up with a compound of unpaid salaries required essential services and an uncertain future was shaken by the crash at the white house gates. a televised car chase, the violent death of a woman driver, a young child in that vehicle witnessing the horrible end. [ gunfire ] the death will no doubt become an iconic tragedy in this period of government shutdown, driven by the hatred of the president's affordable care act and the compulsion of his critics on the hard right to punish him politically. whatever mix of causes drove the woman to this day, the event is now a vivid tragedy played out in the streets of the nation's capital. we get the latest now from nbc

news justice correspondent pete williams. pete, give us a sense of this. what do we know? >> well, we don't know the motive. we don't know why this woman, identified as 34-year-old miriam carey of stamford, connecticut, a dental hygienist, why she came to washington in the first place and why she did what she did. police say that this all started about a quarter after 2:00. this car hit a security barrier at one of the checkpoints that ring the white house. now, this is not right by the white house. it's one of the very outer perimeters. and for some reason she then drove off at a very high speed, pursued by uniformed officers of the secret service. and in fact, the secret service says when she hit one of the barriers at the gate, at the white house gate there, at 15th and e street, the secret service tried to stop her using these little portable gates, i guess you could say, that they put out in front of a car to keep them from going. and a witness said she simply floored the engine, ran over the gate. the officer of the secret

service, uniformed officer, was flipped up onto the hood of her car and then rolled off as she kept going up pennsylvania avenue, blasting through red lights, reaching at one point a speed of more than 80 miles an hour, they say, and then for some reason heading toward the u.s. capitol, the one part of the city that had the heaviest police presence on the streets. capitol police stopped her car. that's the video you were just looking at. at the foot of the capitol on the house side. but as you saw, she backed up and sped away. and then they opened fire again. but she kept going. continued to speed on the streets near the capitol and then a little bit later crashing the car outside a senate office building when police again opened fire and she was pronounced dead a short time later at the scene. now, she did have a 1-year-old child in the car and a capitol policeman was also injured when the policeman hit a barrier in the chaos of the chase. now, tonight state and federal investigators are searching this woman's home in stamford, connecticut. there's -- we can see members of a bomb squad going in and out. we don't know what they're finding. they have no idea why she came

here, why she went to the white house, why she never stopped despite repeated efforts to get her to stop, and what her problem was. some officials tonight say that she had some history of mental issues, but they're still trying to find out what the motive was here, chris. >> do we know -- let's ask about the shooting of the suspect, i guess you'd call her. what was that about? were they afraid, the police officers, do we know, that she would drive recklessly, that she would commit murder perhaps with her car? what was the reason for shooting and killing her? >> because she wouldn't stop repeatedly. i mean, she had already injured a capitol policeman, or rather a secret service agent up at the white house. you can see there she kept going. they of course didn't know what was in the car. they didn't know why she was, if you'll pardon the expression, so hell-bent on getting up to the

capitol. so that's the training that they have. and they were very alarmed that despite repeated, you know, oral statements to her to stop and then firing a been at her she kept going. so they had no idea what her intent was. they didn't know if she was armed. they tell us now they're satisfied that she did not have a gun. so the only shots that were fired today were fired by the capitol police and secret service. >> so is this a metropolitan police matter or a federal matter? is it just a local crime incident? is that how it's being handled? >> i think ultimately -- of course there are not going to be any charges filed here. but the -- it's basically the metro police investigating it, but you've got the fbi involved because there are -- you know, she's from another state. there's a search at her house there. so there's a federal involvement here, fbi, etf and -- but this is important to point out here. you were talking about the shutdown. every law enforcement officer

you've seen in the video is working without pay. all the federal police, with the exception of the washington, d.c. police, i'm not sure what the situation is for all of them, it's probably the same, but certainly as far as the federal officials that are involved they're considered essential personnel. they're all still on the job, but they're not being paid during the furlough. >> just to finish that up, isn't it true, my producer and i were talking to tsa people, a friend of mine is a tsa guy, said that's the same situation they're all in. they have to show up, and they don't get paid. >> that's right. everybody in the federal system who carries a gun or has a badge. they're all considered essential for the protection of life and property. they're except from the shutdown. they must come to work. but they're not getting paid. and it remains to be seen whether they will be paid when this is all over. but then when they come back they will face almost certain furloughs as the government has to tighten up for the sequester. >> what a potentially dangerous

situation. thanks so much. nbc's pete williams, u.s. -- actually nbc's justice correspondent. u.s. congressman jared polis was in his office on capitol hill when the shots were being fired. congressman, thank you for joining us for this unusual horror to talk about. what did you see in what did you hear? >> you know, chris, it's a tough day. here we are in the government shutdown just waiting to schedule a vote to reopen it. alarm bells went off. there's an emergency intercom in the capitol. it said we were going into lockdown. we were instructed to lock our office doors. luckily our staff was accounted for. there were a couple people, constituents from colorado meeting with us at that time. they were locked in with us. and we were on lockdown for about half an hour, not knowing what was going on or whether there was a live shooter here at the capitol. >> anyway, are you confident we have a capitol right now that's able to handle emergency situations like this? the employees, there's 12,000 of them i believe up there at a minimum, able to get out of these buildings in any tricky situation like this if they have to evacuate or would they get stuck in there? >> well, the protocol when

there's a shooter, and that was again what we thought at the time, or somebody who was trying to do harm, is for us to be secure in our building. that's a different protocol than there would be for an evacuation or a bomb threat. so there are different safety protocols for different kinds of threats. we have chemical hoods available for ourselves and our staff. breathing masks. again, clearly our institutions of government are always a target for this sort of thing. there is a lot of security. but depending on what the threat is there's different protocols. >> thank you so much for joining us. congressman jared polis. by the way, a current member of congress who understands the administration of the capitol called me just about an hour ago and said this whole exercise showed him how dangerous it is on the other end, getting the young staffers out of the building if we have to. anyway, thank you, congressman jared polis of colorado. coming up, back to the big story this week, it's pretty messy too. the government shutdown. republicans are at each other's throats now. it's getting to be intramural with them, admitting they have no exit strategy politically except, well, ted cruz doesn't

seem to want to have an exit strategy. he just has a trouble strategy. and then gop leaders getting caught on tape to their embarrassment talking the politics of this thing and not in a particularly public-spirited way. also the shutdown fight may be only the beginning. i think so. many republicans want to take the battle all the way to the debt ceiling and jeopardize this country's financial standing. the entire economy will be held hostage in the process. but it's not clear that speaker boehner is one of the wild men. and let's talk about the political stunts that are being pulled even today and certainly yesterday. we're going to show you here, texas republican randy neugebauer. here he goes. >> how do you look at them and deny them access? >> it's difficult. >> billion, it should be difficult. >> it is difficult. >> park should have should be ashamed of themselves. >> i'm an shamed. >> well, you should be. >> who are you prouder of, the park service people with those campaign hats on or a clownish

congressman trying to use it for his own tackling dummy? unbelievable. anyway, this whole question, photo ops going on display. republicans trying in the last few days to convince americans, at least the gullible who don't read the papers, that they're not ones who shut down the government in the first place. i said before, it's like hostage takers releasing one hostage at a time. they're the bad guys, even if they try to release a hostage. finally, ways on "the colbert report" last night. a little comic relief. >> are you implying there has to be some compromise in politics? >> yes. like in life. >> reagan never did. >> he did so. that's what the book's about. >> he did not. i don't care what the book's about. i don't care what kind of harry potter fantasy you've written here. >> he's the best. this is "hardball." the place for politics.

in the race to be virginia's next governor republican candidate ken cuccinelli's embracing the man behind the government shutdown, believe it or not, texas party firebrand

ted cruz. the texas senator will be in virginia this weekend for a pair of appearances alongside cuccinelli, who's already trailing democrat terry mcauliffe in the polls. virginia's home to more than 300,000 federal employees and retirees. i wonder how they'll react to cuccinelli cozying up to cruz. we'll be right back.

♪ for a store near you go to benjaminmoore.com/bayarea.

for a store near you go to benjaminmoore.com/bayarea. the capitol on lockdown this afternoon. an already tense political climate became more so. i've said before the democrats fall in love, republicans fall in line. but during this entire shutdown fight it's been the republicans who have been the ones in disarray. there's growing anger and disillusionment with senator 2ed cruz, who republicans increasingly see as more interested in helping himself

than in helping their party. in politico today senate republicans vented anonymously following a closed-door luncheon at which cruz was reportedly pelted with hostile questions. one senator said, "it was very evident to everyone in the room that cruz doesn't have a strategy. he never had a strategy. and could never answer a question about what the end game was. i just wish the 35 house members that have bought the snake oil that was sold could witness what was witnessed today at lunch." well, even grover norquist, founder of the club for growth, described ted cruz's behavior this way. "he pushed house republicans into traffic and wandered away. cruz appears to be losing his hold on the gop." in a moment, new york democratic senator charles schumer.

join meg now is republican strategist john feehery. this is a strange situation. you're having people talking out of school. here's more evidence that cruz is actually -- let's take a look at this. anyway, more evidence cruz is alienating fellow republicans comes in this quote in the politico article. "cruz was asked point blank if he would renounce attacks waged on gop senate incumbents by the senate conservatives fund, an outside group that has aligned itself closely with the texas senator cruz." anyway, here's cruz's response. "i will not," according to one of the attendees. isn't it extraordinary for a member of a republican or any caucus to tell his fellow members of the caucus i'm not only not going to protect you from these characters, i'm neutral, i don't care if they knock your buddies off? >> yeah, chris, it's a mess. i think that ted cruz has a lot of explaining to do. what i hear on the internet is people are rhino if they don't agree with ted cruz. that means republican in name only. but if you're the one spending all of your time attacking republicans, who's the real rino? that's my question. >> good point. by the way, remember reagan's 11th commandment? this guy sort of flaunts that baby. >> yeah. i think members in the senate especially but also the house, this strategy has just not

worked out. and i commend john boehner for trying to keep his troops together. and ultimately i hope we do get a strategy to get out of this mess. i hope we get a budget deal because we need a budget deal and i think the president has to negotiate to get a budget deal. that will get us out of this mess. but let's not kid ourselves. ted cruz got us in this mess, and it's really shocking that he did not -- he was not able to stand up to his members and explain what the end game strategy was. >> let's talk politics the way you might as a top staffer before. and it's not out of the question this could happen. because it may have to happen for your party. do you think somebody's good, somebody between cruz and boehner, some republican, a trusted person who doesn't have a big mouth, could go to both of them and say look, two weeks from now we'd better kill this, we've got to get somewhere? so mr. cruz, senator, we're just asking can i go to the speaker and say you're not going to shoot to kill anybody that goes with boehner if he opens up the house to a majority vote? then he brings up a clean cr and gets it to boehner, boehner doesn't feel confident he won't be attacked directly by cruz, cruz will lay down his gun for a

couple days and this thing gets done. is there any chance they'll agree to a cease-fire between cruz and boehner? and i don't think john boehner has to go on bended knee to ted cruz. john boehner, what he has to do is work through this problem, come up with a solution and most importantly we've got to get the presidential to start negotiating. we've got to get a deal. this is not just about this short-term budget deal. it's also about the debt limit -- >> okay. let's go -- let's talk about a deal. i agree. let's talk about a deal. let's forget the cr and go to the real fight, which is going to be over the debt ceiling. what can he give them besides dismembering health care? is there something on the outside he could say look, we're going to deal with the corporate tax reform? we're going to deal with entitlement reform, we're going to do something, but i just can't give you the health care, i'll give you something else? is there an outside the circle deal here? >> well, let's assume, chris, that obama care, repealing obama care is off the table, that's

not going to happen. let's say if there are ways within obama care to fix it or improve it a bit, and then let's talk about entitlement reform and some sort of tax reform and something on the sequester that keeps the sequester going, keeps government spending at about a 2009 level, which is a huge victory for republicans. i think you could get a deal like that. >> i don't think obama will cut the deal if it has anything to do were obama care. so we're still looking for the solution. thank you. by the way, somebody put in the prompter here senator john feehery. so accept the title, senator. joining me now is the real democratic and the real senator chuck schumer of new york. senator, a little levity doesn't hurt today. i've got to tell you. >> you bet. we need it. >> we need it. it's a grim day. this poor woman, whatever her condition-s dead. we know that. two police officers doing their job are injured. a young child. horrifically had to witness this thing. a 1-year-old who's going to have memories forever. and it is going to be an iconic event that may have nothing to do with the shutdown. but talk about your city right now. what is the mood of washington? >> well, it's pretty blue and pretty grim after what happened today.

the one silver lining -- it's not a silver lining but the one good thing that happened is our police officers, capitol hill police, were dedicated. now, remember, they're working, they're not furloughed because they're needed for our security but they're not being paid. and it didn't diminish their professionalism or dedication to do their job one jot. we all admire that. >> i do. let me ask you about the republican side. looking across the aisle and watching or hearing, i'm sure you've heard the buzz out of the republican caucus, the lunch the other day, where there was a lot of crossfire, friendly fire you might call it that's been aimed at cruz. he doesn't seem to have a strategy figured out about how to -- >> no. >> -- end something he started. >> no. you know, he doesn't have a strategy when he goes to the republican caucuses. he doesn't have a strategy when he goes -- when he speaks publicly here on the senate floor. and i will tell you, i have a good number of republican friends, close friends across the aisle. when he talks to them privately, he doesn't have a strategy. he's been totally motivated by the tea party.

the tea party always wanted to shut the government down. and they did. and unfortunately, they used very strong-arm tactics, particularly in the house, and scared people. one of the leading, more reform-minded people who was trying to round up votes among the moderates, and now we seem to have more than enough votes to pass opening up the government, but while he was rounding up the votes tea party forces would go to the people he was going to and say if you do this we're giving you a primary. so ted cruz doesn't have a strategy. they have a bludgeon and they have this desire, fanatical desire to end obama care, but they don't have a strategy of how to do it. >> republican congressman marvin stutzman of indiana gave perhaps the most revealing quote about why congress is paralyzed. he says that for republicans it's about saving face. they need some sort of consolation prize for what they've been doing. let's listen. >> we're not going to be disrespected. and so that's where we're at

today. where we have to get something out of this, and i don't know what that even is. >> yeah. it was -- that was amazing. >> his war room's working. he picked up on stutzman's comments and referenced them in his speech already this morning. let's listen to his reaction to stutzman's strategizing here. >> if you're being disrespected, it's because of that attitude you've got. that you deserve to get something for doing your job. >> and then came the stutzman walkback a little while later. stutzman's office put out a statement that reads in part, "yesterday i carelessly misrepresented the ongoing budget debate and speaker boehner's work on behalf of the american people." i don't know. but i guess he was trying to say in a tongue-twisted way, senator, we've got to get something for all this grief, or what? what are they talking about? >> well, here they hurt millions of innocent people without a strategy, with just strong-arm tactics, and now they say they need to be respected. the reason they're not respected by most republicans, every

democrat, and 80% of americans is because of what they've been doing. it hasn't been that other people have disrespected them. they brought the disrespect on themselves. the way out of this -- and i don't agree with john -- senator feehery over there. a large part of this blame is on speaker boehner himself. he has let these hard right people who he knows has no strategy, who he knows have no experience, who he knows are rather fanatical, run the show. and as long ease lets them run the show he's going to have a miserable speakership and they will not stop demands. the only way to deal with a bully is stand up to them. he's got a lot of people in his caucus praying that he will. ted cruz is probably one of the least popular republicans among republicans here in washington. and if he thinks that's going to get him to be president, it won't. it's just the way things work. if you don't -- if you show you can't govern, if you show you

can't get along even with some of your conservative colleagues, even the most rabid tea party person is not going to nominate him for president. i really believe that. >> you are a gutsy guy. let me ask you a simple question. how do you know people will follow you when you try to lead? or do you have to take the chance and lead and hope they follow you? what comes first here? >> it's a combination. you talk to your colleagues and you see what's really motivating them. and a lot of times they wish you would lead but they're not guaranteeing you they'd follow. then you have to take the gamble lead and usually they do follow. on the other hand, if you're just on the wrong course you should know that too. so you don't just go out willy-nilly. that's what cruz did. he didn't talk to probably three or four of his people. but you find out where your colleagues are. and if you detect oh, gee, i wish they'd take the bullet for me, go forward, you go. and more cases than not people follow. >> thanks so much. senator chuck schumer of new york. this is "hardball," the place for politics. >> by the way, that's what

boehner should do. please, please speaker boehner, rise to the occasion. we need you now to do that. >> thank you, senator.

these are certainly tense times, especially today, but i think i lightened things up last night at least on the great "the colbert report" where i talked about my new book "tipping the gipper: when politics actually worked." here it is. >> you're implying there has to be some compromise. >> yes. >> in politics. >> like in life. >> no. >> that's why we have a congress. because we have a vote. and it has to be 218 in the house or 60 in the senate. and then we go with that vote. that's how it works. is this too complicated? >> yes. i believe in standing on your principles. >> which means don't compromise. >> reagan never did. >> he did so! that's what the book's about. >> he did not. i don't care what the book's about. i don't care. i don't care what kind of "harry potter" fantasy you've written here. >> if reagan were in the white

house right now, do you think we'd be at this impasse? >> no. because reagan had one great strength that jimmy carter didn't have and maybe obama doesn't have yet. he can scare the hell out of the other guy. and he did it with the patco strike. >> are you saying obama doesn't scare people? we haven't done enough to make people afraid of barack obama? we've tried. >> he's so much fun. up next the fight over the shutdown maybe the first volley and only that in a much wider war as some republicans want to hold the economy itself hostage over the debt limit. they want to make us a deadbeat country. and that's ahead. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. 

isn't the economic news just wonderful? welcome back to "hardball." look at the dow dropping right now. as washington recovers from a frightening but at least contained incident this afternoon at the white house and outside the capitol which has left one woman killed and two officers injured we continue on an issue that has consumed not just the city but the entire country.

yesterday the president met with business leaders from the country's largest banks in a clear show of force to get the gop to remember that these executives are the country's economic gatekeepers and still wield enormous clout in politics, particularly with moderate republican congress people. they do not want to see a default, by the way. today the president continued his assault on the republicans. >> the united states is the center of the world economy. so if we screw up everybody gets screwed up. the whole world will have problems. that's why nobody's thought ever to threaten that we won't pay our bills. it would be the height of irresponsibility. that's why i will repeat, there will be no negotiation over this. the american people are not pawns in some political game. you don't get to demand ransom for doing your most basic job.

>> and good for him. and just hours before the president spoke the department of treasury published a frightening report on the realities of a government default. the report states "political brinkmanship that engenders even the prospect of a default can be disruptive to financial markets. a default would be unprecedented and has the potential to be catastrophic. credit markets could freeze. the value of the dollar could plummet. u.s. interest rates could skyrocket. the negative spillovers could reverberate around the world. and there might be a financial crisis and recession that could echo the events of 2008 or worse. well, the message may have finally hit home to gop leadership. "the new york times" is reporting that "speaker john a. boehner has told colleagues that he is determined to prevent a federal default and is willing to pass a measure through a combination of republican and democratic votes according to multiple republicans." has the republican party totally alienated its business allies and with the economy hanging in

the balance can boehner take on cruz and live to tell about it? steve latourette's a former republican congressman in ohio. he served as a key ally to speaker john boehner up until he left office last year due to his disgust, he said, with party extremes m. we also have joshua green here, senior national correspondent at bloomberg business week. congressman latourette i've got to ask but john boehner. i'm getting two signals from him. one is we're really not going to fight to the edge on the c.r., we're going to go to the debt ceiling and that's where we're going to make our big fight over obama care, and then the story from the "new york times" is at that point he will not risk default. which is it? he is going to risk default over obama care or not? >> well, it's a little bit of both. i guess unwittingly they've sort of taken the government shutdown and it's going to bleed into the need to raise the debt limit. so i think you'll have both issues dealt with at the same time.

in john boehner's heart he's not going to let this country default. but i was listening to john feehery a little earlier. the president needs to get a little bit off his high horse. he voted against raising the debt limit when he was in the senate. and there are some things, specific things that he could give up, wouldn't cost him anything, that would allow boehner to save face so we can get this thing done. >> give me some examples. can you think of them? >> yeah, sure i can. the medical device tax. 76 senators voted to repeal the medical device tax. the keystone pipeline, which everybody in town knows the president's going to give up on eventually. the president laid out chain cpi on the entitlements. those are three things that john boehner can go -- that's a big win if you couple that with the fact that under sequester spending we're already spending much less, about half a trillion less than was projected. so you know, republicans need to take the win and go home and the president needs to do what president reagan did -- i mean, you were there, and you know president reagan presided over the biggest tax increase in american history to make that deal with tip o'neill. and the president needs to give a little. >> yeah.

well, he needed to reduce the deficit back in '82, and he and o'neill got together. let me go to josh green. do you think that list makes sense? keystone. that would drive the environmentalists and a lot of democratic progressives crazy. the medical device thing would cost the obama care program about $30 billion. what else? i forgot the other one. the dealing with the debt ceiling -- i mean sorry, dealing with the cost of living, adjusting that downward in effect. is that too much of a giveaway for the president? >> i think he can give away some of those things. the key is what are republicans willing to give up? the thing that stanched every deal the last few years is republicans have endless lists of what they'd like but they're not willing to give either loophole closings or tax increases in return. until they get to the point they're willing to offer some of that up, they need to give obama something in order to get these nice things in return. and so far i don't see any sign that that's imminent.

>> let me ask you, congressman, a logic question. if default is terrible for the united states, why does the president have to beg for it? why does he have to give up anything to get the country to be patriotic, especially republicans who say often they're the most patriotic? why should he pay for that? >> well, he shouldn't pay for it. but you know, the fact of the matter -- >> you're saying -- you're giving a christmas list of stuff he's got to lay on the republican table -- >> oh, no, no, no. >> -- gee whiz -- i'm sorry, explain it. >> that's for reopening the government. the debt ceiling should be a no-brainer. because the consequences if you look at the chart of what happens if our credit rating is degraded at all, it costs trillions of dollars in extra cost of money. so that's just stupid among other things. but to reopen the government we do have a budget dispute going on here. >> when your party's willing -- look, if you stop threatening the debt ceiling this whole game is over because the debt ceiling is the key to everything. but the thing is the guy setting the table for you guys now, ted cruz of texas, is talking about the debt ceiling.

>> well, listen, ted cruz, you know, i compared him to a trained monkey the other day and i got a lot of phone calls from monkeys that were pissed off that i made that comparison. listen, he is not calling the tune. house republicans, 35 of them, have sort of rallied around him. but i will tell you that the hastert rule that always gets misinterpret -- it's the majority of the majority. boehner can move forward if there's 233 rends with 120 republicans and ignore these outliers, and i think he signaled today, if the "new york times" is right, that he's willing to do it. >> so he's willing to go with roughly half the caucus. by the way, this monkey thing is always a bad thing to call anybody an animal. but there is sort of using the movie reference, josh, a "planet of the apes" aspect to this. when you deal with some of these republican outliers, they don't believe in climate change. they don't believe in evolution. they really don't seem to believe in economics. they'll say i got my economics by raising a family, i don't listen to economists.

this sort of troglodyte know-nothingism is -- >> now they're messing with basic economic health of the country. i spoke with businessmen for whom this shutdown is kind of the last straw because if you look back at the last three years we've had the austerity imposed by sequestration. we had the near default on the debt last time, 2011, that killed consumer confidence. now you have a shutdown and you have the possibility of another default. this is providing a huge headwind to the recovery. it's hurting economic growth. and frankly it's driving away customers that a lot of these small businessmen depend on. and they don't understand why the government is shut down and what republicans are exactly holding out for. i'm not sure republicans know either. >> we thought during the campaign that mitt romney was a typical republican. he talked about the 47%. he was a wealthy guy from the business world. now your party seems more

populist, at least at the roots, against big business, against the mitt romneys of the world. who is your party's leader? is it business or is it the populist right wing? >> well, the populist right wing makes up about 38% of primary voters. and so they're a group of people paying attention to it. but make no mistake, john boehner's the leader of the party. mitt romney became a flawed k7bd not because he wasn't conservative enough but because he had to be on a stage with michele bachmann and say if we gave you a deal where you got $10 of spending cuts for $1 in revenue increases would you take it, when he said no the election was over. >> well said. you are an expert, sir. you ought to give more commentary on programs like this. i think you got the heart of the matter here. it's really daffy behavior against reasonable conservative behavior. thank you, steve latourette for coming and josh green, thank you for your expertise. up next, stunt men as in publicity stunts. the republicans are using phony manufactured confected outrage to try to convince americans it wasn't them who led to the shutdown, it was the democrats.

who's going to believe that who reads the newspaper? anyway, this is "hardball," the place for politics. angie's list saves me a lot of time. after reading all the reviews i know i'm making the right choice. online or on the phone, we help you hire right the first time. with honest reviews on over 720 local services. keeping up with these two is more than a full time job, and i don't have time for unreliable companies. angie's list definitely saves me time and money. for over 18 years we've helped people take care of the things that matter most. join today.

you tell us what you want to pay, and we give you a range of coverages to choose from. who is she? that's flobot. she's this new robot we're trying out, mostly for, like, small stuff. wow! look at her go! she's pretty good. she's pretty good. hey, flobot, great job. oops. [ powers down ] uh-oh, flobot is broken. the "name your price" tool, only from progressive. call or click today. rand paul and mitch mcconnell caught in a candid exchange about how democrats haven't poll tested their public comments on the government shutdown. >> do you have a second? >> i'm all wired up here.

>> i just did cnn. and i just go over and over again, we're willing to compromise, we're willing to negotiate. i think -- i don't think they poll tested we won't negotiate. i think it's awful for them to say that over and over again. >> yeah, i do too. and i just came back from that two-hour meeting with them, and that was -- that was basically the same view privately as it was publicly. >> i think if we keep saying we wanted to defund it, we fought for, that but now we're willing to compromise on this, i think they can't -- we're going to -- i think -- well, i know we don't want to be here, but we're going to win this, i think. >> back room chatter. anyway, a lot of dugout noise there. republicans are on message while democrats haven't properly poll tested their position? senators, you're not supposed to be talking like that. you're supposed to be with us, not in that back room. we'll be right back after this.

welcome back to "hardball." the world war ii memorial has become the go-to backdrop for republicans to grandstand and bash the president over a shutdown that they, in fact, instigated. yesterday, it reached absurd levels when texas congressman randy neugebauer, who, by the way, is a birther, confronted a park ranger about the closed memorial. take a look at what happens when he asks her how she could turn away the public. >> how do you look at them and say, how do you not have access? i don't get that. >> it's difficult. >> well, it should be difficult. >> it's very difficult. i'm sorry, sir. >> park services should be ashamed. >> i'm not ashamed. >> you should be. >> you know, that's why congress has about an 8% reputation right now, 8% job approval, off a babts like that showing off at

the expense of somebody working for the united states government. nagabauer was then confronted by a furloughed federal worker. >> more or less, costs you money to come here. >> this woman is doing her job, just like me. i'm a 30-year federal veteran. i'm out of work. >> the reason you are, is because mr. reid -- >> no, because the government won't do its job and pass a budget. >> well, perhaps the most shameless thing about this whole encounter is that nagabauer just the day before proudly boasted to a texas radio station about his role in the government shutdown. the very thing that is causing the memorial closing. >> how long are you prepared to leave the government shut down? >> as long as it takes, chad, because this is an important issue. >> well, karen finney is the host of "disrupt" on msnbc on weekends at 4:00 and richard

wolffe is vice president and executive editor of msnbc.com. karen finney, it's rare that we catch a pall in the act of total bs. he's out there bluffing his way into the poor face of a hardworking, somebody with a campaign hat on. by the way, i always work those people who work for the park service. i don't like everybody who works for the government, but certainly them. and why would he make fun of somebody in uniform, especially, so he could get a cheap shot on the news? >> well, but i think, chris, i mean, we've seen this time and again. this is part of the ongoing demonization of the federal government and federal workers. when you listen to how conservatives talk about the government and government workers, it's always very negative, and without even thinking about -- i mean, they are the government. they have young people working for them, who are also being harmed in this. and i think he should have been ashamed at the way he talked to

that woman. and bravo to her for standing up to him and bravo to the other guy for actually stepping in and saying, wait a second, you're the person who did this. i mean, people are not buying this argument, but republicans are very good at trying to create a shiny object over here to distract us from what the real issue is. >> and talk about class. this woman who's a park ranger, it's a great job, she's doing a great job, apparently. look how she handled it. she said, it is difficult, she agreed with the congressman, it is difficult to turn people away, i'm sorry we do it. and then he kept at her, using her as a tackling dummy and then he said, you should be ashamed. and she said the greatest thing in the world, "i'm not ashamed to be doing my job." >> good for her. >> anyway, richard, who's got the class in that situation? the elected birther, by the way. let's start with the fact that he thinks the president is the from kenya somewhere. he's not exactly a great american, this guy who he thinks he's in charge of saying who is the great americans. >> i would humbly suggest that he's not actually a good politician either. you don't punch down, you know, you find your equal. pick on someone your own size, you know.

>> or bigger. >> we're talking about park rangers as well, not some faceless bureaucrat. someone who's out there trying to help tourists, people getting around the nation's capital. you know, there's a bigger problem than just basic manners and having respect for people trying to do their job, whoever their employer is. the bigger problem for people like this congressman is that they say they want to run government, but they're perfectly happy to shut it down. that's a basic contradiction. if you want to run government, if you want to look like you're ready to govern, then you don't shut things down so people can't go about their day-to-day business or even be tourists in the nation's capital. >> but richard, i think the point is that they don't want to run government. they don't care about blowing up government. they are happy to have it look perfectly dysfunctional. and what democrats need to do, speaking very politically, there's an important opportunity here to remind people that this is what happens when the republicans are in control. they get this kind of dysfunction. make them own this level of dysfunction and make their brand

own it for generations to come. i mean, the last time we had republicans controlling the house, you had tom delay and the culture of corruption and "k" street and the time before that, you had newt gingrich and what did we do? we shut down the government. there needs to be longer term, deeper consequences in the way people view the ability of republicans to lead this country. >> well, tom delay was acquitted. let's go on here. congressman steven king made it over to the memorial today -- there must have been a clown car for the carpool today. they were all going over there. and he accused the president in having a hand in personally shutting down the memorial out of spite. let's watch. >> what the park service did, and i believe this order came right out of the oval office, they rented barricades, they called people off of furlough, they brought forklifts in to haul the barricades in and set them up to barricade this memorial and there's no rational reason for it. i believe this is the act of the commander in chief of our armed forces, which is another thing that gals me a great deal. so i think that, you know, this

memorial, we'll see whether the president will order it open. he can do so in a heartbeat, because i believe he ordered it closed. >> just for a thinking purposes, karen, imagine if the president had kept the world war ii monument open, but there wasn't an adequate number of park rangers, because they're furloughed, and there was a defacing over there, perhaps, a spray painting, the kind of things we hate to see happen, but you have to be careful they don't happen. remember, it happened to the lincoln memorial. >> or an accident! >> who would be blamed? the president would be blamed. >> to make sure no one slips and falls. but chris, this is part of what they do. it's the photo op that they go for. they went for the photo op of, you know, in their white coats, talking. once they realized that people were upset about children being turned away from nih, then they were all about, we should be roping nih. but they don't give a rat's you know what about kids being kicked out of head start. you can't be pitting groups of americans against each other. that's exactly what they're doing with this.

>> unless they're on the far right. king's protest wasn't without a hitch. a protester muddled his speech a little bit. >> put your tail between your legs, go back up on the hill, and do your work! >> wow. well, that's going on air. the trouble with becoming a street protester, richard, is you have to put up with other street protesters. >> right. >> you just become -- you don't have the usual big shot protection anymore, that congressmen like. >> you get what you deserve. and look, the congressman should rub the department of making stuff up. because he was making assertions that, never mind about shutting down the government, he's making assertions based on what he believes. this order came directly from the oval office. i guess he has nothing to base that -- and he offers up no evidence. there's nothing the president has ever done to disrespect

veterans, you know, not like not funding a gi bill or anything like that. >> hasn't the president's wife, who's probably had a lot more influence, more than some of these congressmen, spent her entire first ladyship looking out for the families of people. thank you karen finney and richard wolffe. we'll be right back. to remove up to 90% of surface stains in just 5 days. no wonder the number one whitening brand is crest 3d white. that's a good thing, but it doesn't cover everything. only about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you. so consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like all standardized medicare supplement insurance plans, they pick up some of what medicare doesn't pay and could save you in out-of-pocket medical costs. call today to request a free decision guide to help you better understand what medicare is all about and which aarp medicare supplement plan works best for you. with these types of plans,

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let me finish tonight with this. i'm up in boston tonight, where in a few minutes i'll be addressing the cambridge public library on my new book "tip and the gipper." tonight, a book party hosted by the former two-term governor of massachusetts -- lieutenant governor of massachusetts, that's right, right after the playoff game, hosted by the sox against tampa bay.

i've got to tell you, it's a joy to be in my former boss, tip o'neill's hometown, telling the grand story about how and president ronald reagan were able to champion their own causes and yet find ways to deal good for america, to find good deals. we need some of that we're in this together spirit today, don't you think? that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. we begin tonight with a terrifying, extraordinary scene at the capital today when shots were fired, the capitol hill went into lockdown and law enforcement, including capitol hill police, the secret service, and the fbi went into full response mode. this is just part of the scene, captured by arabic language tv channel alhurra. a female suspect traveling in