[ male announcer ] old el paso frozen entrées. now in freezers. thanks for disrupting your sunday afternoon. i'm karen finney. guess what? ted cruz says he's winning. maybe he wants to tell that to the millions of people who've been affected by the government shutdown. >> you're the one man in washington that has the power to reopen the government. >> why is this guy so unable to do what will make him a profile in courage? >> there are not the votes in the house to pass a clean cr. >> put it on the floor monday or tuesday. >> are you sure that's true? >> time for us to stand. >> we were risking shutting down the government. that is not our goal. >> when i hear you say that's not your goal -- >> ted cruz and the hard right republicans are holding him hostage. >> we're winning the argument. >> winning. >> republicans own this shutdown. >> do you think you've heard the

republican party brand? >> not remotely. >> they like it being closed. >> there's no change in your position? >> absolutely not. >> another crisis looms on the horizon. >> we are not going to pass a clean debt limit. >> we are happy to negotiate on anything. >> i'm ready for the phone call. >> this is playing with fire. >> when is this going to end? >> if i knew, i'd tell you. ♪ call me, call me, call me any, any time, call me ♪ >> day six of the government shutdown. hopes for bringing it to an end were pretty much darked this morning when speaker boehner showed he is completely willing to budge on the gop's hostage demands. boehner told abc's george stephanopoulos he's sticking with the shutdown strategy. even though he's got no clue at all where it's going. >> you've tried this several times. it hasn't worked. so there's no change in your position? >> absolutely not. >> when is this going to end?

>> if i knew, i'd tell you. >> that's what i call leadership. with no clear path to ending this impasse, the house resumes tomorrow afternoon to continue voting on piecemeal spending bills. yet another sign the republicans have no real strategy. they just think they're winning. meanwhile, boehner has no plans to bring the senate's clean continuing resolution to the floor for a vote. here's what he told stephanopoulos. >> there are not the votes in the house to pass a clean cr. >> actually, boehner, the white house is calling your bluff. press secretary jay carney tweeted, quote, the speaker says there are not enough votes to pass a clean cr. if he's right, why not prove it? #justvote. joining me now, democratic congresswoman sheila jackson lee of texas. congresswoman, thank you so much for joining me. >> karen, thank you for having me this afternoon. >> i wanted to get your take on this issue about the whip count for the clean cr. i mean, you saw earlier this

morning speaker boehner saying there are not the votes. but by most tallies, there do seem to be at least, if you've got roughly 200 democrats i think it is who signed the letter. there's a good 20, 22, 24, i think, republicans that i think by most counts would support a clean cr. so why can speaker boehner not just move this forward? >> i think the republican leadership should realize that it's not about them. it's about the american people. i came to my district last night. i'm flying back this afternoon. just to be with constituents. doctors, people in the arts, laborers, catholic charity. today my district celebrated 70 years, people who are used to helping the vulnerable. i will tell you, they get it. they understand that all we have to do is put a bill on the floor and the government will open. catholic charities, in fact, is working with a federal program dealing with young immigrants. that program is faltering because of lack of federal dollars. even though they are still

working. what i would say to the leadership, the republican leadership, is listen to peter king who says you're on a kamikaze route. a suicide mission. there are votes. there are at least 21 republicans. 17 to 21. let me be on the conservative side. along with democrats who are ready to vote right now, yesterday. early this evening or tomorrow morning on a clean continuing resolution without the idea of a hostage taking situation. and then, karen, no one has rebuked the idea of negotiating. so many of us, no matter whether we're progressives or moderates. we've all worked with republicans. we've all co-sponsored bills. all collaborated in our committees. it's not unusual. i want to say these points. tomorrow i'm told an aircraft company in connecticut will lay off 2,000 people. october 15th the federal courts will close down.

they can only last for ten days. the federal courts will close down. then, of course, we meet the number one disaster, and that is the pending debt ceiling calamity, which as secretary lew said, we're already using extraordinary measures. >> congresswoman, let me just before i let you go ask you this question. there was this suggestion about an alternative proposal with this discharge petition as another strategy to try to get something done. as i understand, that would take us to about october 17th. do you see that as a viable way to move forward if we can't -- if the clean cr vote just won't happen? >> well, this shows that democrats are willing to negotiate, collaborate, engage. that's what we're doing. our leadership has put forward a discharge petition which does not block republicans from signing it. if all of the democratic members sign it, which i expect that to happen, and 17 to 21 republicans sign it, it must be put on the floor of the house. we must secure a vote.

but, karen, why do we have to do that? i said, the american people our priority or is it our special interests? frankly, i am hurting, frankly hurting from all of the stories that i've been hearing. some of the federal workers who are married to folk who are in afghanistan, who are just overwhelmed with their predicament of not being able to work. they're sort of the head of household with their husband away. or the woman who's suffering domestic abuse. the story that was told to me last week. her fellow workers had to go and get her because both of the individuals, her and her husband, are off. obviously tension is rising. she had to be taken to a shelter. as i said, my catholic charities here who are suffering. or the cardinal who i listened today in my district who said the just live by faith. i believe we have to have faith in a system. the democratic system says we have to work with the majority and the minority. right now the majority wants a clean bill to be on the floor of

the house. not for members of congress. but for the american people. >> thank you, congresswoman sheila jackson lee. for some additional political analysis let's bring in msnbc political analyst and editor at large for salon.com joan walsh and republican strategist rick tyler. thanks to you both for joining me. >> glad to be here. >> rick, i want to start with you. so we have -- so you had speaker boehner saying, you know, there's just not the votes. then you have kind of the white house calling the bluff. why not just go ahead and do it? >> well, i assume that speaker boehner was told by leader mccarthy that he doesn't have the votes. whose vote do i count? the speaker of the house or jay carney who's the mouthpiece for the president? of course he's going to say he has the votes. i believe boehner. >> i think by the numbers we were just going through, there's roughly on the conservative side 17 republicans to maybe 22. and you've got democrats -- >> we can all guess. but the whip's job -- >> why not just prove the point? hold on. this is a house that has taken

42, 43, 44 votes against obama care. does not have a problem sort of taking symbolic votes. why not go ahead and prove the point by putting this to a vote? >> karen, i can assure you on every single one of those votes leader mccarthy knew exactly how many people were going to vote for it. in this case he knows how many people are going to vote for or against it. he's telling the speaker we don't have the votes. i don't know what to say other than that. >> seems like there has not seemed to have been a problem in the past taking a vote on something just for a symbolic gesture. that's my point. >> what they do have the votes for and what they have the vote for is they've passed funding for the entire federal government except for obama care. they keep sending those spending measures to the senate. the president, who is -- who has refused to negotiate -- let's get something straight about the president. the president doesn't seem to understand what his job is. or he's not particularly good at it. ever since he went to -- overseas to try to get the olympics for chicago we could see he has no ability to negotiate. he has no real relationship with

the house and the senate. he's just refused to come to the table. republicans have continually tried to come to the table. the president has refused. >> rick, i mean -- >> it's as simple as that. >> this president has actually come a long way and actually done some damage with himself on the left in many of the negotiations. i would remind you that the 2011 showdown, it was speaker boehner who walked away. i want to let joan get in here, though. joan, this is the talking point we've been hearing again and again from republicans. but we're not -- we're talking about negotiating over settled law. >> right. >> sort of like when you're a teenager and you want to use your mother's car. and your mother says, no. >> i'm not negotiating. it's my car. >> because it's my car. >> this is the law of the land. for this president to have to take a lecture in how to govern and how to negotiate from rick tyler is a little bit hard to swallow. >> oh, come on, joan. >> hard to sit here and swallow. this president did negotiate. obama care, the affordable care act was the product of negotiation. it was the product of hundreds, literally hundreds of republican

amendments that were then -- that then were adopted and then republicans didn't vote for the bill. there was endless negotiation with people on the left furious at the way the president did court the chuck grassleys of the world. >> joan, that's a little bit of rewriting of history. >> no, i'm not. this is actually the way it happened. then he couldn't -- >> this bill was rammed through the middle of the night without a single republican vote. >> hearing after hearing of this bill went through the committee process. it had amendment after amendment. republican amendments. republicans just decided to walk away and not give the president any votes even though he compromised with them. even though he took out the public option that people like me wanted. it's a compromise. it works through private industry and it's the law of the land. >> rick, let's take a look forward here. because it was interesting this morning. we had speaker boehner, you know, on the shows. he was very consistent in his message. so we've put together a little montage. let's take a listen and then we'll talk about it on the other side. >> we're interested in having a

conversation about how we open the government and how we begin to pay our bills. so it's my way or the highway. that's what he's saying. it's time for us to sit down and have a conversation. the president is risking default by not having a conversation with us. he knows what my phone number is. all he has to do is call. i'm willing is to sit down and have a conversation with the president. but his refusal to negotiate is putting our country at risk. his refusal to negotiate is what's putting the government at risk of default. the president can't just sit there and say i'm not going to negotiate. i'm ready for the phone call. i'm ready for the conversation. i'm a reasonable guy. all he has to do is pick up the phone. it's the most reasonable thing in the world. i'm ready to talk. i've been ready to talk. >> i think the speaker is exactly right. i commend his leadership. >> so we did that in a manner because, you know, from everything we've been reading it's really ted cruz who's been sort of running this strategy for the house. and you saw earlier in that same interview where speaker boehner basically said, well, he was going to do it one way, went

back to his caucus, they didn't want to do it that way. that really was the same time we learned that cruz had actually caucused with the tea partyiers in the house kau us the and they were the ones driving this decision. i guess my point to you, rick, is what is the way out? what -- is there something that the president could offer at this point that would be acceptable? part of the problem as we look at this, i think there's a real question as to what is it that will satisfy the whole republican caucus, particularly the tea partiers that is actually actionable and reasonable to get us out of this mess? >> well, we're in this mess because we haven't dealt with entitlement spending over the years. we haven't dealt with spending at all. we continue to raise the debt limit without any fundamental changes. the problem with raising the debt limit, the president is going to ask for a trillion dollars in new spending. >> the debt limit is about paying bills already racked up.

that's not about new spending. >> that's correct. it's as $16.7 trillion. the president is presently going to ask that it be raised to at least $17.6 trillion. the republicans are saying these are unsustainable. when you start to have interest rates according to the cbo's report last year that approached 20% in less than 20 years, the question is, the government is going to default. whether it'll default this year or in 20 years, i don't know. on this trajectory, it has to default because you can't with all the entitlement spending -- see, we didn't fix the entitlement spending before obama care which doesn't work. >> that's not why we're at this. we are at this point because we cannot agree on a continuing resolution. by the way, there is a budget. there could be a conference committee. >> on the budget. >> on the budget, actually. we're not even talking about that. we're talking about a continuing resolution here. >> and you asked -- >> from what you're saying it sounds to me like there's not anything at this point that the president can offer. one more question for joan before we go. we've got some polling out, ppp

did some polling taking a look at whether or not there are going to be consequences in 2014 for gop incumbents. gop incumbents are trailing in about 17 house districts and democrats need 17 seats to pick up a house majority. how likely do you think it is, joan, this becomes an issue in the 2014 cycle? >> i think it will be an issue. i think the american people are fed up with this. we've seen over and over that even republicans don't want the government shut down and certainly don't want the debt ceiling breached over obama care. they don't like it, but they don't think this is a fair way to negotiate. this is hurting the party even with republicans. as you raised, karen, the president doesn't know who to make a deal with. first of all, john boehner said at the beginning of this year, he told his caucus i will not be negotiating with that man. so don't accuse the president of not negotiating. but right now who can make a deal for this party? it's just not clear. that is actually frankly scary. >> rick, final question to you. >> all right. >> doesn't that -- we look

forward to 2014, how does your party make a credible argument that the republicans can lead this country competently with things like this happening? under republican leadership? >> you know, i -- that's an interesting way to phrase it. i'd phrase it exactly that way for the democrats. joan's right. we're going to have an election in 2014. recent bloomberg poll showed that the blame is actually tightening. that more people do still blame republicans, but the significant shift, actually, has been a shift in the independents who are starting more to blame barack obama. because in the end, this is his government. the house has passed all the necessary measures to keep the government funded. the senate's refused to take them up. the president has refused to come to the negotiating table. >> all right. >> i think that's where we're at. we'll let the country decide. >> we're going to have to leave it there. i do think that district by district, i think people will make up their minds based on -- i don't think they care who's to blame. i think they want competent leadership. joan walsh and rick tyler, thanks to you both. >> i agree with that. thank you, karen. next, from the mind of tea

party freshman and veterinarian ted yoho on the debt ceiling not being raised. quote, i think personally it would bring stability to the markets. stability. that's coming up. >> they're saying it's at risk because of your refusal to pass a clean debt limit. >> we are not going to pass a clean debt limit increase. >> under no circumstances? >> i told the president, there's no way we're going to pass -- when the votes are not in the house to pass a clean debt limit. ♪ here i go again on my own ♪ going down the only road i've ever known ♪ i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. whether you're just starting your 401(k) or you are ready for retirement,

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paying for. and as a result, this has been a routine vote. it's happened more than 40 times since ronald reagan was president. never before has a party threatened to not pay our bills. except for 2011. >> well, with this republican party, never before has become the new normal. and they're doing it again. take a listen to speaker john boehner this morning on abc. >> we are not going to pass a clean debt limit increase. >> under no circumstances? >> i told the president, there's no way we're going to pass -- when the the votes are not in the house to pass a clean debt limit. and the president is risking default by not having a conversation with us. >> you got to love those compromising republicans. once again, willing to let the country default for the first time ever just, well, because, just because. and let's not blame the speaker's problems on president obama. speaker boehner opportunity hdoe votes because we has no control

over his party. what's the president going to do october 17th when we actually run out of money? joining me now, cnbc senior economics reporter steve liesman. president of the brennan center for justice michael waldman. thanks to you both. i want to start by looking at 2011. we know even though we didn't breach the debt limit there were economic consequences. steve, i want to talk about that a little bit. it's not theoretical to suggest that even just getting to this point has consequences for the economy. >> if you don't mind, it's not theoretical. you have to bring a constitutional lawyer and a financial reporter together to understand what's going to happen in the next two weeks. >> we thought that would be the best way to approach this. >> it's exactly right. you have the market. it's all depends on how serious the market believes that this threat is going to be. right now it's pretty interesting that the market is not really all that concerned. they've been here before. they think it's kind of cried wolf before. so they've got ton the 11th hour and they've made a deal. right now the market is not all that concerned.

but if we get -- as we get closer, certainly the market -- we have seen a little bit of increase in interest rates. >> i'm sort of alarmed this morning when -- michael and i have been through this before in the '90s. you know that there are sort of things you can do to sort of buy yourself a little time. this morning when jack lew says, no, no, no. that was in may. october 17th is really when i've run out of measures. i mean, that seems to be -- that alarmed me. i would think markets would react to that. >> let's be clear. it depends if the government is going to pay the interest on the debt. it may do so in return for closing down the justice department and letting all the fbi people -- putting them on furlough. one way or the other if the government does not borrow about 30% of government spending must go away and must decline. that is a shock to the economy that will most certainly put the economy into a recession. there is no doubt about that. whether or not we breach the -- we don't pay the interest on the debt and we default on the debt, that's a different question. >> okay. then that's why i have my lawyer

here. >> you need a lawyer. >> i know. to talk about what the options are. some of the options, we have a full screen on this. one is use section 4 of the 14th amendment. ignore the debt ceiling and pay our bills. mint a $1 trillion coin. or get republicans on board. i think the last one is the hardest. talk to me about what the president's options are, michael. >> this would all make the founding fathers' wig hair stand on end. these are the kinds of issues that they were grappling with in trying to create a strong effective government that could pay its bills. those were the issues that were around at the time of the american revolution and the french revolution and throughout our country's history. the president has -- is right in saying we've had government shutdowns before, but we've never really had anything close to the kind of default that we're talking about. so what powers does he have? well, there are strong arguments to be made that he has the power to do a variety of ways of doing this unilaterally. none of it is a clear case.

so the 14th amendment says that the debt of the united states shall not be questioned. there's only one supreme court case that's ever really looked at that. it seems to say that -- that you don't want to not be passing a law that says you can't pay what you've already obliged. but that's not really clear that that's going to hold up. >> there's two sides i've heard on that. i want to ask you guys about. one's argument says, go for it. because if you win, then this -- we don't ever have to have this problem again. the other argument i've heard, having this tied up in the courts probably not so good for our economy. probably not so good for the global economy. >> i'll take the first part of that which is that the united states' debt and its dollar and its word is the bottom line benchmark foundation of the entire global financial system. the closer we get to potentially breaching that is not only a u.s. domestic economic issue, it's a global issue. the closer we get to that, the more we will pay in a price

for -- for that over time. there's nobody right now out there to take our place. but if the united states gets into a place where it's unclear if we can pay either legally or financially our debt, there's going to be serious consequences. >> that's a heavy load to have on the president's shoulders. >> the bottom line is there are no good options. congress has said this much in taxes you can raise. this much in spending you can do. this much in debt is allowed. he may have to choose which unconstitutional option to follow. i don't know why as a negotiation matter, if nothing else, the administration doesn't just say, look, we're not going to let this happen. now, let's talk about the budget. let's talk about the government shutdown. they've chosen not to do that. i think they think that puts more pressure on the republicans. i hope that's true. but there may come a moment if things get really bad where we would all expect the president to stand up and say, you know what? i don't care if this goes to court. i've got to do what i've got to

do to protect the economy. >> it's possible for the republicans to get exactly what they want through this. as soon as we reach this place where the treasury secretary is out of the ability to borrow, spending equals revenue. immediate balanced budget. i'm not sure that the republicans, or at least some republicans, are going to mind that situation. >> except things suddenly start getting cut are social security benefits, medicare payments, true payments. all these things people don't want touched because they want the government spending cut. >> you guys have just convinced me we need this trillion dollar coin. problem solved. we'll just pay it off. steve liesman and michael waldman, thanks to you both. be sure to follow us online at facebook and tweet us @msnbcdisrupt. let us know how you think the government shutdown should end. stay with us. next. the kooch and the cruz. it's a love story coming up. >> democrats say keep it closed because they like it being closed. >> i don't support shutting down the government. >> we are the ones that shut the government down. customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online

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i'll tell you one thing about my friend cuccinelli. he loves liberty and the constitution. more than praise from the "washington post." >> that was ted cruz last night in richmond, virginia. heaping praise on his friend cuccinelli. ken cuccinelli, of course. republican candidate for governor in virginia. aka, the cooch. they did have a little backstage get-together in which the cooch implored the cruzinator to end the government shutdown. virginia has more than 144,000

federal workers, or put another way, 144,000 voters who proudly serve our country and proudly don't like being punch bags for ted cruz or his good friend the cooch. the cooch is behind in the polls and getting crushed among women and minority voters. so he can't really afford to lose the support of government workers. he can now thank his good friend if federal workers decide the cooch and the cruz is one bromance they can do without. still ahead, what would you think if you were told not to praise your kids for being smart or talented? [ woman #1 ] why do i cook? ♪ because an empty pan is a blank canvas. ♪ [ woman #2 ] to share a moment. ♪ [ man #1 ] to remember my grandmother. [ woman #3 ] to show my love. ♪ [ woman #4 ] because life needs flavor.

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just two short years ago failed leaders set out to strip over $5 billion from our already underfunded public schools.

and they were wrong. so i took to the senate floor determined to block the bill the only way i could. by filibustering. >> democratic state senator wendy davis was announcing her bid for governor, taking on rick perry's -- greg abbott. reminding texans her first filibuster wasn't her pink running shoes wearing stance over the abortion bill. it was for education. under the able leadership of the perry abbott tag team texas has dropped to dead last in high school graduation rates and remain dead last in the percentage of people with health care. it makes sense that governor rick perry would call the affordable care act a, quote, criminal act. despite perry's claims to the contrary, state spending on education, according to politifact, has actually decreased by 25% from 2002 to

2012. with these and many other facts on her side, the question is can wendy davis convince texas to go blue? filling the first open gubernatorial seat in texas since 1990 when none other but ann richards pulled off an upset victory. for more on whether wendy davis can turn texas blue i'm joined by msnbc contributor victoria defrancesco soto and reporter for the texas tribune, alana rocho. thank you for joining me. i want to start with you, alana. looking at the demographics of texas, some say it's maybe too early to think that texas could go blue. if you look at changing demographics among women voters, latino voters, it does seem there's a coalition of voters there that if wendy can get them to turn out she could actually take this thing. >> it depends, you know, who you talk to. talking with battleground texas jeremy bird running that

operation here in the state, he said it might not be -- the demographic might not be there yet. the straemg of how they approach that 254 counties here in texas, they magt not be able to win over those counties but they want to be able to reach people in the rural areas, suburban women, to try and get those segments of the population they haven't been successful with in the past. >> you know, victoria, to that point, jeremy bird. that name should sound familiar. he ran the grassroots operation for president obama. no question she is going to have a pretty state of the art sort of grass roots underpinning to her campaign. that seems like an advantage for her. >> it does. that grass roots advantage is going to help her make up for lost ground in terms of money, first of all. abbott comes into the game with $22 million. wendy davis has a million. because of her filibuster earlier this summer, she was able to gain notoriety akrcross the country. that's going to be able to help her get that money trickling in,

getting people to give small donations. the other secret weapon she has is women, moderate women, either republicans or independents who don't necessarily think that abortion should be illegal. a university of texas poll recently showed that about 44% of independent women don't think abortion should be illegal. on that issue, you're going to see some cross-over voters. when it comes to latinos, they've just got to mobilize. old fashioned boots on the ground mobilization. >> let's talk about abbott for just a moment. i mean, noticeably, he has money. although it does seem that wendy does have the ability to raise national money. as you point out, her profile has been raised by the filibuster. he doesn't have very high name recognition in the state. that means -- from a campaign perspective, alana, it's a plus or minus because it means you can still be defined or it means you've got to spend a lot of money to define yourself. similarly, wendy has, you know, fairly higher notoriety. abbott, though, it's still a

very -- texas is still a conservative state. abbott is a good conservative by most accounts. he has sued time and time again over the affordable care act. he is a darling of the tea party. how much of an uphill battle is this going to be for wendy? >> you know, just following her announcement on thursday, i pulled over people randomly in the crowd who all said -- who used the term uphill battle as far as what she's facing ahead. all are ready to mobilize. it was really a diverse crowd. more so, maybe, you could say than what you saw at some of the abbott stump speeches immediately following his announcement. so there were signs that said -- different segments of the population there. i think that will bode well for her. i talked to a gentleman who didn't want to go on camera. he said he was a republican campaign staffer who said she'll be a formidable candidate because of the national fame she garnered this summer with her filibuster and also with the presence of battleground texas here. >> victoria, you wrote -- i know you mentioned this earlier. you wrote also this week about the abortion issue and about the

role that that could play. but one of the things that strikes me is on -- i mean, you talk about people potentially crossing party lines, women for the positive. at the same time, we saw some pretty nasty tweets and comments being made about wendy davis. some pretty horrible things being said about her. tying her to national democrats. tying her to the national democratic party and the democratic agenda. here's a tweet from michelle malkin. wendy davis texas has no idea how ghoulish she sounds when she talks about a better tomorrow for everyone. it seems to me that issue can play in her favor, but it can also play against her. and opportunity medoes it mean distance herself from national democrats. >> that's right. just recently two days ago a pro life committee started running radio ads in south texas about the abortion issue and about wendy davis. at least when we're looking at latinos, with latinos we tend to think they're very conservative

socially so will they stay home and not vote for davis because of the abortion issue? what we have seen from polling data, for example, latino decision shows that latinos tend to be no different than nonlatinos when it comes to the abortion issue. maybe slightly a tad bit more conservative. latinas who vote more than their counterparts are just as pro-choice as non-latinos. it's not going to be as big of a challenge as we might think it would. >> final question to you, victoria. do women see this issue not just as an abortion issue but access to health care issue? we're talking about the number of clinics that have to close. there's a health care issue here, too. >> absolutely. think about the situation texas is in. they're not taking medicaid dollars. texas already has some dismal health care. this is is a women's issue not just because of the right to choose but because of the the right to have access to health care. >> all right. we'll be watching this race very

closely. thanks. next, our disrupter of the week. a man with family ties defieing great odds. that's coming up. >> winner. canada! senator ted cruz -- senator ted cruz was born in canada. so while we were worried about iran, china and north korea, a canadian shut down the u.s. government. well played, canada. ♪ [ dog barking ] ♪ [ female announcer ] life is full of little tests, but your basic paper towel can handle them. especially if that towel is bounty basic. the towel that's 50% stronger. in this lab demo even just one select-a-size sheet of bounty basic is stronger than one full sheet of the leading bargain brand. everyday life? bring it with bounty basic. the strong, but affordable picker-upper.

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now get a $179 per month lease on a 2013 nissan altima. help the gulf when we made recover and learn the gulf, bp from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger. the disclaimer is i've gone through -- if i didn't wake up and be in this place with positivity and hearts and flowers and unicorns. i went through a lot of stuff. >> you welcomed him in your living room as the preppy young conservative alex p. keaton. he went back to the future in

h -- he revealeded he'd been suffering from parkinson's and took a step back from acting. the 52-year-old is back disrupting the stigma about that progressive neurological disorder where he plays mike henry, a family man re-entering the news business who just also happens to have parkinson's. >> if that was parkinson's, we're cool. if not, not cool, dad. >> you've been texting the whole meal. >> it's a brave narrative in comedy television. michael j. fox, great to see you back on the small screen. you are our disrupter of the week. next, using failure, i said "failure," as a way to improve the performance of american students. that's when we come back. [ female announcer ] made just a little sweeter...

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earlier this year the conservative heritage foundation was forced to hire -- when

details of his harvard dissertation, iq and immigration policy became public. richline proposed a startlingly bigoted theory between connections between race and intelligence. he wrote, quote, no one knows where hispanic will reach iq parity with whites. richwine's offensive premise suggests that intelligence is fixed. that it can't be developed or grown. which also contradicts vast neuroscience research that demonstrates every child as the capacity for intelligence and high achievement. the distinguishing characteristic is mind set, not skin color or immigration status. research has shown that the child's mind set or the way he or she views themselves and their learning capabilities play an important role in their overall success. so in honor of our fourth education nation summit here at nbc and msnbc, as we're asking what it takes, as in what it takes for us as a nation to prepare students for college, career and beyond, we're

examining what it takes to instill a growth mind set and what impact can that have on a child's education. just a few months ago the obama administration convened a group of experts to discuss how a child's belief about their abilities impact learning overall and overall achievement. as they noted in a blog post, quote, research demonstrates that when children learn their academic ability is not a fixed trait like eye color but instead is like a muscle that can grow and develop with hard work they do better in school. the most dramatic improvements are typically seen in low performing students, students of color and females in s.t.e.m. related courses. despite what jason richwine thinks, intelligence is a work in progress. which means that every child can grow their intelligence to create achievement. and it mean that our country can't afford to waste this human capital. which also means ensuring that every child has access to a quality education. joining us to discuss are two people who have devoted their careers to students and education. president of the american federation of teachers, randy

winegarden. . adjunct professor of harvard professor of -- dr. david doctorsman, also known as dock. thanks to you both. i want to start with you. let's talk about the concept of the growth mind set. it seems intuitively it makes a lot of sense. >> right. we all have fixed mind sept sets about some things and growth mind sets about others. places we think we're good at something or not. that's a fixed mindset. other places where our abilities, our natural abilities are just a starting point. we put in effort, we get better. you have them in your life. there are places where you say i'm just not that good at this. other places where you're willing to -- you're looking for challenges. you don't mind making mistakes. that's part of how you learn and grow. >> one of the things, randi, i thought was so interesting about talking about this, it's the idea that just kind of normalizing failure, almost. right? >> exactly. >> that it's like a step two. i'm just going to keep trying. i got to come back at it. >> what's happening is paul tough wrote this remarkable book this year about exactly this.

he calls it perseverance or grit. when you think about it, there's three things -- first off, teachers always -- i mean, we're always into a growth mindset. because kids' brains are not fixed. what are we trying to do? we're trying to grow knowledge. we're trying to apply that. if you think about it, in terms of a school, we have to create a trusting environment for kids, teachers to thrive. we have to engage kids. not where we want them to be but where they are and help move them. and then we have to really create this perseverance, resilience, grit. because if kids know how to -- how to get up after they stumble and fall, that's probably frankly with all due respect the most important skill set we can teach a child. it grows confidence. it grows a sense of accomplishment. and it grows a sense of i can take the world. >> you know, dock, i think about this particularly with struggling students. struggling readers. kids struggling in math. we know that so much of what's

going on is low self-esteem. right? kids avoid things that make them feel bad. so you just don't go to that class. they get into such a cycle. what strikes me about this way of approaching their education, and i know you've been working with teachers and students to kind of rethink this, that it's okay if you fail. just keep trying. and that you can -- this idea that you can be a genius, actually. >> right. learning is an effortful process. if we only did things that were easy we wouldn't be learning anything. we'd be practicing things we already knew. there's that mix of the willingness to get up and try again is kind of based on a belief that my next try will -- has a chance of success. i also have to have ways of what am i going to do differently? there is competence and confidence that have to be built together. >> so what are the things that schools need, teachers need, to ensure that we are creating? this is the kind of environment i think we want in every school. not just in private schools or charter schools, but in every

school. what are the tools, what are the things we need to make this happen? >> one thing that was successful was teaching students about growth mindset. that your brain is like a muscle. it is really no pain, no gain. if you don't use it, it's not going to grow. exercising it. look for challenges. looking for challenges. expecting struggle. because that's an indication that you're learning. of course, it's hard. that means something good is happening. >> so i've become a big believer. because we're in this huge -- are we fixated on tests or not and the standardized test kind of regime has taken over. i've spent a lot of time now talking to people about, okay, what can we do as alternatives to testing? this kind of project based learning. capstone projects. things like i did with my kids when i taught at claireborn high school. we engaged in debate society. the constitution and bill of rights. robotics. i think if we actually dealt with one, we have to deal with

social emotional issues of kids. not just instruction. but in instruction, really create this engagement process, this effort process, that gets to an end where kids really start building things instead of just one day on a standardized test. that, i think, helps us get to this growth mindset. >> it seems to me, dock, it helps us change our mindset about what is possible. >> right, right. it's -- you have to believe that it's there. we have to be very careful in the words that we use. setting kids up the right way. if you start a lesson, say let's start with an easy one and a struggling student can't do the ease ci easy one, you're done. i can't do the easy one. this might take a few tries. you get it right away. you're feeling pretty good. >> teachers have to say we take kids where they are. not where we want them to be. educate all children and the whole child. >> thank you guys so much. i'm so excited to have had this conversation. randi weingarten and dr. david

dockterman, dock. that does it for me. please don't forget to share your thoughts. find us on facebook and tweet us at&t @msnbcdisrupt. we'll see you here next saturday. sted it partner, you'll experience reliable uptime for the network and services you depend on. multi-layered security solutions keep your information safe, and secure. and responsive dedicated support meets your needs, and eases your mind. centurylink. your link to what's next. and you're not very proud of that. but tonight he made pizza... ...with johnsonville italian sausage. and everybody loved it. and you're definitely proud of that. johnsonville. served with pride since 1945.

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i heard a crack. is that kid okay? >> who doesn't want to believe you can actually run on water. >> do you believe it now? >> video magicians at work. >> it's so goofy and so unbelievable that that's sort of what makes it so funny. >> and their bags full of tricks. >> by the end of it, it was like pulling my hair out. i actually started to have nightmares about the machine. >> how do they do it? >> a good magician doesn't give away his tricks. >> but we do.