a baker's dozen. that's 13 days of government shutdown with no deal in sight. just more talk. >> i think we're in a status quo. i do think we will see our way through this, but the last 24 hours have not been good. >> this is self-inflicted pain on millions of people. it's unnecessary. and now to go to the brink of a government default, which is catastrophic. >> the debt ceiling dilemma. what happens to the markets and your money tomorrow if no deal is struck? we'll ask someone with inside perspective. a tale of terror and surviv survival. the new book by elizabeth smart on how she coped with the most difficult moments of his captivity. and how did the least

populated state in the country end up at the top of one list? hello, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." key developments on this 13th day of the government shutdown. here's where things stand right now. the senate is scheduled to meet in just one hour at 1:00 p.m. eastern time. hope for a compromise has now shifted to that body after talks between the white house and house republicans collapsed on saturday. senate majority leader harry reid and minority leader mitch mcconnell say they're working to broker a deal. late yesterday, senate democratic leaders met with president obama at the white house to discuss a way forward. key lawmakers from both parties weighed in on "meet the press." will a deal be reached by thursday? >> i'm a hopeful person, and i believe we can do it. i hope sensible people prevail. we reach a point where the house republicans and their leadership

really have stepped to the sidelines. they're not part of this at this point. >> we'll decide it as a congress that we need to avoid going over the debt limit. we'll figure it out. it'll probably be a relatively short-term solution. i know we'll find a way. i'm hopeful we'll do that in the next couple days. >> elsewhere, texas senator ted cruz has won the presidential straw poll conducted by the values voters summit. the group of essential conservatives voted saturday during their meeting in the nation's capital. let's go to capitol hill to nbc's kelly o'donnell. what do we expect to happen today? >> well, we expect there will be what i like to call speech if speechifying, which is the floor will be open. the real thing to watch is what we won't be able to see easily. that's the conversations going on behind the scenes. i would expect we'll get an update from senate majority leader harry reid on where things stand.

senators have said the conversation lines remain open to keep working on this new deal that's emerged in the last couple days where senators want to take the lead for all the reasons you laid out. the ongoing tensions with the house republicans and the white house. the hope is if they can get some sort of package put together in the next couple of days and if there is enough bipartisan support, and that's the goal, to get not a squeak by kind of vote but a big vote, if that were to happen, would it have real pressure on the house? that's a question that remains to be seen. but there are serious consequences that are just days away now. to give you a sense of the mood here, let's listen to the top leaders in the democratic party. harry reid and chuck schumer. >> they're not doing us a favor by reopening the government. they're not doing us a favor by extending the debt ceiling. that's part of our jobs.

>> i worry on monday that when the american markets open, maybe because of this vote, that they will start worrying and not only will the stock market go down, but interest rates go up. >> and so what you see is really democrats are hoping outside forces like the markets could have some impact now. we've talked about that from the beginning, but as we get closer and closer to what is described as this next cliff on thursday when the government's borrowing authority runs out, essentially the credit card is maxed out, if the markets react and signal to congress enough, could that be a way to move things along? all of this remains to be seen. the good news is that conversations are happening. the good news is there are members in both parties, at least on senate side, working together. the tough sell will still be with the most conservative members of the house republican conference. alex? >> all right. i do like speechifying on the floor, though. i'm going to borrow that.

>> one of my favorites. >> thank you very much. let's go to the next part of your screen. we're going to go to nbc's kristen welker at the white house. the president met with senate democrats yesterday. what about today? any meetings planned? >> so far, no meetings planned. i don't think we can rule that out. certainly the white house is going to want to stay on top of any discussions that take place on capitol hill. as you pointed out, president obama late yesterday met with senate democrats to get an update on the preliminary discussions that started to take place yesterday between majority leader harry reid and minority leader mitch mcconnell. so things sort of at a standstill right now as we wait for the negotiations to start back up again. i can tell you that the president is going to get briefed later today by his chief of staff. top adviser. the impacts on things like nih and other government agencies. i want to pan off, though, alex,

for me and show you what's taking place outside of the white house. you can see there's a huge protest going on right now. these are people who have come out. they started their protest outside the world war ii memorial. thaifr protesting the fact that memorials have been closed down, shut down due to this government closure. they want the government back open. they have been quite loud all morning long. you can see there's really a large crowd of them gathered right now. so the pressure, the public anger is mounting, which is really increasing the pressure on lawmakers on this white house to get something done, to get the government back open. as you can see, the public's patience has pretty much run out with this situation. >> absolutely. understandably so. we are going to have a report on what happened there at the world war ii memorial. it's pretty dramatic, those activities. what about the white house? do you get a sense of the nerves that are there regarding the debt ceiling, missing that deadline, what all that could mean for the economy?

>> i think there's a fair amount of concern at the white house and on capitol hill about what could happen if the nation were to default on its loans. that is expected, of course, to happen on thursday. we know the treasury secretary jack lew last week was testifying on capitol hill about the impacts on the economy saying that it could potentially lead to another recession. it would have a serious and grave impact. earlier today on "meet the press" during david gregory's exclusive interview with the imf chief, he said it could have an impact worldwide. take a listen to what she had to say. >> when you are the largest economy in the world, when you are the safe haven in all circumstances as has been the case, you can't go into that business. you have to honor your signature. you have to give certainty to the rest of the world. >> alex, there has been some debate about whether or not

thursday is actually such an important deadline. a lot of economists say that, look, it really is an important deadli deadline, it's not something to flirt with or to mess around with. a lot of pressure building as lawmakers get closer to that thursday date. alex? >> all right, kristen at the white house. thanks so much. so what is the view from inside the negotiations? well, joining me no is democratic congressman david sisselini. >> i think it's unclear the speaker has been unwilling to deliver his own caucus and a vote with democrats. it seems as if the senate leadership has given up on the house and areworking directly with the white house to put together a deal. we all voted yesterday, signed a discharge petition to try to

force the speaker to bring a clean funding bill to the floor. just to make it clear, that's what we think. the government should be open. we should avoid a default. then we should go through regular order and develop a budget over the long term. so i think it's very clear the speaker has been unwilling to do that. though the votes are there, the american people deserve to have a government open. they deserve to be ensured that we're protecting the full faith and credit of the united states. to allow a default would be catastrophic for our economy. >> give me a sense of that discharge petition that you're talking about. i see that your colleague from the other side of the aisle there in rhode island also signed that petition. give me a reflection on how bipartisan that petition is. >> well, this is really a moment. there are 186 democrats that have signed it. we need a majority to get to 218. it will require some republicans to sign the petition. there have been about 20 or 25 republicans who have made public statements in support of a clean

funding bill to reopen government. so they have defined the courage to not only vote for that but to sign a petition that will give them the opportunity to vote for that as well as the rest of the congress. this will force the speaker to bring that senate bill to the floor to allow us to open government so that we can get the american people back to work. they've said they support a clean funding bill, but they need to find the courage to sign the petition, which may be a little harder for them because it's really an action that will force the speaker to do something that so far he's been unwilling to do. >> well, and the ideology behind that, i'm reading a quote from you, speaker boehner cared as much about solving this problem as he did about protecting his own job, we would not be facing a shutdown next week. is that a widely held view? >> yeah, i mean, i think the sense is that the speaker has been unwilling to stand up to this extreme faction within his caucus led by the tea party because he sees that as some threat to his speakership. i think they've been very vocal about that in challenging him. but this is a moment, frankly, where he has to do what's right

for our country and put aside his own political future and say, this is a moment to do not what's right for your caucus or for the republican party but what's right for america. i think he would be -- would enjoy wide acclaim if he did what's good for our country. that's to avoid a default, to reopen government and worry about the political consequences later. >> all right. let's talk about the shutdown. 13 days in effect here. thursday we're technically out of money. there are those that say, you know, they fudge the actual ability to pay some bills. would you accept a short-term deal to avoid further pain and possible catastrophe? >> i think we have to make sure we open the government and avoid the default. the longer term we can do it, the better. i think we all would agree as long as those things are done and there's a process of dealing with the budget, send it to the budget committee so we can go through regular order and reach a compromise. the problem is we have people on our side in the republican party

that are saying things like a default would be stabilizing for the economy or this isn't such a big deal. they don't understand the urgency of what default would mean. >> but with regard to accepting the short-term deal, and i understand what you're saying there, but are the democrats at all letting the perfect get in the way of good enough? >> no, i think, you know, most democrats have two priorities. opening government right away. the american people deserve a functioning and open government. and secondly, doing everything we can to extend the debt limit so the united states does not default on its obligations and we don't become a deadbeat nation. i think everyone recognizes that the longer term we can do that, it gives more opportunity to really negotiate a long-term budget deal the better. but doing both those things immediately is a priority for me and i think for most democrats. open the government, avoid the debt ceiling default, and then go through regular order. we've been asking for that since april so we can negotiate a budget for the long term.

i think that has been what the democrats have been asking for. we have votes for both of those things if they came to the floor, they would pass with almost all the democrats supporting them and some number of republicans to make the majority. we would pass both of them. the speaker has so far been unwilling to do that because of this rule he just doesn't want to accept the idea of a governing coalition between democrats and republicans. we needs to do it because our country needs him to do it. >> all right. rhode island democratic representative dade cicilline. good to see you. >> thanks. >> as if the government shutdown wasn't trouble enough, a new slap in the face this weekend for food stamp recipients. and elizabeth smart tells me about her kidnapping and how she tricked her kidnappers into doing something that led to her rescue. ♪

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an unusual sight over the skies of texas. a rare land spout tornado was seen north of dallas yesterday. typically a tornado drops down from a cloud, but a land spout forms from circulation on the ground and that gets pulled up into that cloud. the national weather service says they usually don't last too long and cause little damage. on the heels of that, dylan dreier is here with the forecast. >> hi, alex. yeah, it's like a waterspout but happens over land. usually pretty harmless, but the rain in texas has been brutal. we've already picked up about 3 inches of rain yesterday. a lot more rain to go through today. flood watches and warnings are posted across central texas. you can see most of the heaviest rain is right around san antonio and just west of houston. you have these heavier thunderstorms that produce the downpours and that could create some of the flash flooding. that will pretty much be going on throughout the entire day today. but to the north of that, after you see that we are going to see perhaps about 4 to 5 inches of rainfall in western texas, to the north of that we're looking at the potential of snow. we've got a bigger system moving

into parts of southwestern montana and also into northwestern wyoming. some of those areas in the higher elevations could have a foot of snow. that's going to spread eastward as we go into tomorrow into areas like rapid city. we are going to keep an eye out for more snow out that way. look how chilly it is up there. 38 degrees in billings. that is that cooler air that's going to start settling into areas like minneapolis and eventually chicago. today a high of 64 degrees in chicago as the marathon runners finish up there. 46 in billings with rain today and the chance of snow tomorrow. 83 today in dallas with those thunderstorms it producing some heavier downpours. and since tomorrow is columbus day, most of the east coast is going to enjoy a nice day off. 70 degrees in new york. 67 in washington, d.c. still hot cross the gulf states. >> thank you. well, 11 years ago she was

kidnapped at knife point. elizabeth smart is now opening up about her ordeal. on june 5th, 2002, he was taken from her salt lake city bedroom in the middle of the night. for the next 14 months, she was abused physically and mentally by her captors. a decade after her rescue in a memoir, she's sharing her frightening capture and her life afterwards. she told me how she was able to survive and still find hope. ten years after your rescue, what is the most profound memory of your time in captivity? >> one of the most profound memories was coming back from california. we were hitchhiking. we were making our way back, and just the people that would stop and pick us up. i remember one woman in specific. we had been caught what felt like forever. i was exhausted. i had huge bags on my back over my shoulder. i was getting sunburned. i was just getting so hot.

there was this one woman that pulled over to the side of the road. she stopped, and she picked us up, complete strangers, and she drove us quite a distance. then she dropped us off, but she was so kind. she was just so caring. it just really showed me how, even though we were in a terrible situation, even though i was in a terrible situation, even though i felt like maybe there's nobody left in the world that was good and kind that cared about me, that there are still wonderful people everywhere who do care. >> you've been very, very open about the fact that you were violated. you were raped every day for nine months at 14 years old. where did you get your strength to survive that? >> as i have been able to move forward and meet other people, i just have to say the strength that all of us have inside is so much deeper and so much stronger than any of us know.

it's really not until we are tested that we really see how strong all of us are. >> the day you were rescued, i want to talk about that because in a way, you mentioned california. after you were moving to san diego, you were the one that convinced mitchell to move back to salt lake, where you figured out you had the best chance of being rescued. so you had a hand in setting up your rescue. >> i did. i remember i had been watching my captors, how they just manipulated each other, how they manipulated everyone around hem to get what they wanted. it used to just make me so sick watching them do this. but i remember kneeling down and praying because i know it's wrong to manipulate a person, especially through religion. that was their specialty. so i remember praying, promising i'd never do it again if it would just work this one time. when i was finished, i got up, i faced my captors, and i said, i just have this feeling we really need to go back to salt lake. could you pray about it?

because god will tell you. and that's what led to my rescue, really. i mean, maybe it was stroking his ego. if anyone was ever inspired once, i think he really was. there's absolutely every reason for them to never go back to salt lake. >> you actually faced down mitchell in court as he was sentenced to life in prison without parole, proving that he didn't win. year, year and a half into married life, are there things you think you appreciate on a daily basis that others may take for granted? >> i think there are things that i appreciate on a daily level, but i think i still probably take them for granted sometimes and that it's good to be reminded of all the blessings that i have. i am so grateful. i mean, every time i speak and i'm able to talk about my family, i meet people who aren't as fortunate as i am who have been sexually abused or have gone through some terrible ordeal in their life and they

don't have the support system i have. they don't have the family i have. and that reminds me how blessed and how fortunate and truly what a miracle my life is. i think we all need to be reminded of how blessed all of us are. >> what an extraordinary and incredibly brave young woman. the cost of the government shutdown, the bill taxpayers are going to get hit with once the fight in washington is over. it t ltle things ilife that make me spenng with my niece. i don't use super poligrip for hold because my dentures fit well. before those little pieces would get in between my dentures and my gum and it was uncomfortable. even well-fitting dentures let in food particles. super poligrip is zinc free. with just a few dabs, it's clinically proven to seal out more food particles so you're more comfortable and confident while you eat. so it's not about keeping my dentures in, it's about keeping the food particles out. [ charlie ] try zinc free super poligrip.

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for business. it's the third straight year wyoming has topped the annual tax foundation's rankings. south dakota and nevada round out the top three. the business tax burdens for new york, new jersey, and california are the worst in the country. we've lost houston. we've lost houston. >> at the box office, the space thriller "gravity" heads for a second straight weekend win. and this adorable toddler trying to crawl with two huskies in tow. look how the dogs begin to him t -- imitate. irresistible. just keep it up. that's really cute. those are your number ones. lyrics: 'take on me...' ♪ ♪ 'take me home...' ♪ 'i'll be gone...'

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are confirmed to be home and safe after missing from a rural ranch for troubled youth on friday. an abuse investigation at the property is underway with the program director named as a person of interest. an amber alert will remain in effect for the other boys until investigators know they are okay. frustrating moments for people in 17 states who rely on food stamps to purchase groceries. a system outage saturday left many unable to use their cards for purchases. xerox, which runs the system, said a test of back-up systems caused that glitch. the outing had nothing to do with the government shutdown. 67 people were arrested in st. petersburg, russia, after a fight broke out between gay activists and opponents. in june, russia adopted a law that bans homosexual propaganda directed at minors. the white house and congress have just four days to come to an agreement on a debt ceiling increase before the u.s. government could default. in an interview on today's "meet the press," the imf head spoke

about concerns she's hearing from global finance ministers. >> one thing was certain around the table. it was that if there is that degree of disruption, that lack of certainty, that lack of trust in the u.s. signature, it would mean massive disruption the world over. we would be at risk of tipping yet again into recession. >> joining me now is democratic congressman john delaney. i'm glad to have you here. thanks for joining me. >> nice to be here. >> first of all, where dot negotiations stand right now? >> well, it appears that the negotiations right now are between the white house and the senate with the senate republicans really stepping forward because talks have broken down between the white house and the house republicans. it feels to me like the negotiations are between the president, the senate republicans, and of course harry reid. >> okay. i want to focus on the debt ceiling with you, sir.

what do you think happens when the stock market opens tomorrow with this default looming on thursday? >> you know, i tend to think that the markets will give us until tuesday to work out an agreement, which is, you know, when the u.s. markets will resume after the holiday weekend. >> absolutely. you're right. >> so i think, you know, tuesday is the big date. i think at this point, if you look how the markets reacted thursday and friday, which is they reacted positively based on encouraging signs about a deal, i would say the markets embedded in those asusumptions that something would happen this weekend, and if something doesn't happen by tuesday morning, we could see markets down quite a bit. that's only part of the story with the debt ceiling. obviously markets would be disrupted. it would have a very negative effect on the u.s. economy. what hasn't been talked about enough is the fact that we've probably already done some damage in terms of how the international financial community, the monetary community, if you will, views

the united states. that's a consequential thing for this country. unfortunately, this country will be a borrower for a long time, if you look at our level of debt. we clearly have to do some significant things to lower our debt, but we won't be able to do that overnight. we'll be in the world marks borrowing money for a long time. i would have to think that based on what's happened, there's some minor calibration among global investors about how they think about the u.s. credit. it's unfortunate. >> have you been hearing anything directly from the banks, you and your colleagues on the financial services committee? >> yeah, i think the banks, you know -- obviously this is a very significant thing for them. the banks trade in treasury bills for their clients. they use treasury bills as collateral for counterparties. they obviously, particularly the larger banks, are very active in the global financial markets. i think they understand very directly the potential negative implications this could have. to be clear, i don't think anyone fully understands all of the implications.

obviously we've never been in this position. so we have heard from the banks, but we hear it from businesses, not just the financial community. we hear it from small businesses. this is an issue that affects average americans up to the largest corporations and financial institutions in the world. >> okay. what would be the economic impact if this government does default? >> so i think you'd have to measure it a couple different ways. there would be a short-term impact clearly. markets would disrupt. that would affect short-term growth. there would be a lot of uncertainty. we have to assume at some point we would get ourselves out of a default position. so i would describe a default position as having potentially very negative and potentially catastrophic implications in the short term. spike in interest rates, markets fall, lack of confidence, people unable to execute transactions where u.s. treasuries is collateral. that would really hurt growth, which is something we need a lot of these days. it would cause a spike in

unemployment. and it would disrupt marks. that's the short-term implications. as i said, the long-term implications, i think, are very severe. i think a default would to some extenl extent increase the u.s. borrowing costs. we'll be borrowing from the global markets for a very long time. any increase in our borrowing cost is a fiscally irresponsible thing to do. that'll even put more pressure on an already challenged budget that we have. >> so quickly, by that description, would you be willing to vote in favor of a short-term deal if it means avoiding this kind of financial crisis? >> i think i would vote for a short-term deal to raise the debt ceiling, certainly. i think you have to. i think as a fiduciary steward of the country and the citizens in this country who rely upon the member of congress to get things done, we have to vote for a short-term increase to get things done. obviously, people like myself and many, many others would like a longer term increase so we could put the debt ceiling aside and get to it the real work of

doing the things we need to do to change the fiscal trajectory of this country. this country has two problems. it has a growth problem, and it has a debt problem. there's a way of actually addressing those problems together, but it involves adopting some pro-growth policies, making hard decisions, doing things it like tax reform, which both encourages growth and can produce revenues that lower the debt. that's the stuff we should be working on. it's a lot easier to work on those things when the debt ceiling is pushed aside for a while. >> all right. democratic congressman john delaney, thank you very much. you were right, stock markets open tomorrow, bond market is closed. investors take note of that. thank you. >> thank you. >> let's bring in washington bureau chief lynn sweet and jonathan alter, author of "the center holds." hi, guys. lynn, i'll begin with you. senate reconvening in about 25 minutes or so. where do we sit at this moment? how fast do you think a deal might get done? any realistic timeline?

>> timeline is we're still hurtling towards the thursday deadline for default. what's really interesting here is not so much whether the senate can make a deal because they have a history of bipartisanship and the two leaders, mcconnell and reid, are talking. they started talking at 9:00 a.m. yesterday morning. the big question is, can senate republicans sell whatever compromise they make with senate democrats to the house republicans or at least enough of them so that speaker boehner will allow a vote. >> so jonathan, the president having met with senate democrats on saturday, what's the evolution of white house thinking at this point? >> well, they feel like they have the upper hand, but as congressman delaney said, the effects of failure here are catastrophic, potentially catastrophic for the economy. so they have to play their cards even though they're holding the high cards pretty skillfully in the next couple days. what's bothering me a little bit

now is i feel like there's a lack of creativity in this end game. for instance, there's a parliamentary procedure in the house of representatives called a discharge petition, which is a way to get a bill to the floor of the house without the speaker's support. so there actually is another option, but it doesn't seem to be being explored very much right now. you don't hear very much talk about a discharge petition. a discharge petition, by the way, was the way the civil rights act of 1964 was passed because there was a segregationist committee chairman in the house at that time who was preventing it from goin going to the floor, so they went around him. my question for people is why isn't there more conversation about how to go around john boehner's weak leadership? >> well, just for the record, i know you were in a car actually traveling here, but i spoke with representative david cicilline. he did sign that along with his counterpart in rhode island.

they're around 180 signatures right now, short of what they need. >> short of what they need. for instance, if you got the business community, which really wants this to come to an end, if you got the business community to put pressure on other members of congress to at least sign the discharge petition, obviously the pressure that they're putting on the speaker to bring this to the floor is not working because the speaker is worried about losing his speakership if he does bring it to the floor. there's more than one way to skin a cat. i'm glad you've been exploring it this morning. >> real quick, jonathan, is the white house concerned that those abysmal numbers with most americans blaming the gop for all this crisis, are they worried they might get tainted by this in the process as well the longer this goes on? >> sure. already the president's numbers are not healthy. they're among the worst he's experienced in his presidency. so this is hurting everybody. also, just one other quick note. the framing of the discussion

over the sequester is also harmful to the white house because i've seen reporting this morning, abc news, for instance, reported that the white house is pushing for spending increases. that is entirely false. what they're pushing for is the restoration of the spending that came before these draconian short-term sequestration cuts. so that's leading people to believe that, oh, these liberal democrats, they want spending increases. no, what they're looking to do is to prevent the full effect of these sequester cuts, which were not rational and which were a budget gimmick in 2011. >> so lynn, we have senate majority leader harry reid and senator chuck schumer. they opened the formal talks with mitch mcconnell. senator lamar alexander as well. this happened on saturday. here's how reid described those talks. >> the conversations were extremely cordial but very preliminary, of course. nothing conclusive.

i hope that our talking is some solace to the american people and to the world. >> what does solace mean there? does it mean jittery financial markets are not going to tank monday morning? >> i was at that press conference yesterday where i think part of what they were trying to do, and this was just the democratic leaders there, was to say there might be an end in sight. just by virtue of mcconnell and reid talking, alex and jonathan. so even the idea -- i think what the senate leaders are trying to do, both republican and democrat, is say, well, we might be able to craft a bipartisan plan. but i still go back to what i think is a main problem, selling it to most -- and when i say most, 232 republicans, if they could embrace a senate republican plan, then you have the framework to get a vote. >> okay. we have to book more time for our segments. i love talking with the beoth o

you together and apart. >> jonathan, this is the button that some democrats were wearing on the hill yesterday saying i signed the discharge petition and i took a picture of it. some people are on it. >> i know the democrats are on it. now the business community has to get on it. even if their members are not for this compromise, it deserves a vote. that is embedded in our constitution. the right to bring this thing to a vote. every business leader out there should be telling their congressman at least let this go to the floor so our elected representatives can decide. >> then see what happens. see how that vote plays out. okay. good to see you both. thanks. office politics. with intelligence reporter kimberly dosher. she talks about one issue she wrestles with every time a national security story comes up. for seeing your business in a whole new way. for seeing what cash is coming in and going out... so you can understand every angle of your cash flow- last week, this month, and even next year.

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despite her injuries in a car bomb attack in baghdad, she's got her heart set on running a half marathon. she's amazing. first, i asked kim about the recent attack on nairobi's west gate mall and the challenge of acting on intelligence tips. >> there were reports before hand that something was being planned, but this is a case where something's always being planned. where and when it might happen is -- you know, which one of these plots might go forward, never certain. so while even the mall owners apparently had been warned that there might be an attack on their mall, that was sort of always, you know -- >> they always live under that cloud? >> yes. i remember being in baghdad or in afghanistan and getting security reports from local security contractors saying, okay, today we know that there are a the least three potential car bomb plots.

they might involve vehicles that look like this. keep your guard up. that's all you can do. they are trying to step up in africa and the horn of africa. they did already have an operation there. the s.e.a.l.s traditionally trained the yemeni counterterrorism forces. if it's horn of africa, it's probably a naval s.e.a.l. operation. but the u.s. army's delta force, which is based at ft. bragg, got a new assignment roughly a year ago to start tracking al qaeda in north africa so that as al qaeda starts building its network across north africa, the u.s. is trying to do the same thing. >> you know what worries me, though srkts w though, is the way we talk about this. i talk about it on my show, about intelligence operations. i always have this sort of ping in the back of my mind like my conscience saying, you shouldn't

be talking about this because it's too rev la toir. >> yeah, it's one of those issues that we wrestle with every time we publish a story. when you are going to reveal detail of an operation, even afterwards, you go to the organizations. you know, you go to the cia. you go to the pentagon. you say, all right, we understand this, this, and this. give them a chance to make their argument as to why either you shouldn't publish that because it's inaccurate, or if you publish that, it could have this second and third order effect. >> like putting lives in danger. >> yeah. you don't want to put lives in danger of these people carrying out missions on the ground. so many times the ap, other news organizations very made the call to hold a piece of information for a while and report it later.

>> you talk about having to have your legs reconstructed and yet look at you persevering and working towards running a half marathon. >> ah, yes, my guilty thing on the to-do list, the leftover thing on the to-do list, yes. you know, any trauma patient, whether it's a car crash or a car bomb, your muscles that got reconstructed, the parts of your body that got reconstructed always want to go back to the weakness at that point of injury. if i don't work out on a regular basis, my legs get really weak. i start, you know -- if i wear really high heels and i'm walking around the pentagon and i trip and fall, everybody seems to see me trip and fall. so i work out four to five times a week just to keep my legs at that point where, you know, okay, it's a bit of pride, but

it's also all these people worked to save me and put me back together. i better keep this in tip-top condition. for me, running a half marathon would be another way to say, look, here's what you can do. it's a way to give thanks but also to set an example. >> like i said, kim's amazing. next weekend, chris matthews joins me for office politics. he'll be talking about his new book "tip and the gipper." it's addsiing up every day, the staggering cost of the government shutdown. we'll bring you the numbers and where it's hitting hardest next. in the nation, we know how you feel about your car. so when coverage really counts, count on nationwide insurance. because what's precious to you is precious to us. ♪ love, love is strange

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in minutes on capitol hill, senators are set to begin a rare sunday session and looming before them and the country at large, the specter of america defaults on its debts beginning thursday and cascading into november. but first, as we welcome you to

shutdown day 13, a baker's dozen of your government standstill, while its days add up, so do the costs. a new article provides these numbers. the shutdown has already cost $2 billion in lost economic output. that number grows by about $160 million a day. joining me to talk about where the shutdown hits the hardest, the author of that report. how do you explain this $2 billion loss a day? where's the breakdown? >> a lot of it is due to lost economic output. we have 800,000 federal workers who are furloughed who aren't getting paychecks, which means they're not spending and putting that money into the economy. we have loans that aren't going out from the small business administration, permits that are being held up. we have a lot of different ways in which economic growth is sort of slowing to a halt as long as this government is shut down. >> yeah, here's something that's of great concern. you write no money has gone to the assistance for needy

families since october 1st. what happens if the shutdown continues? >> we've seen a lot of programs like this, welfare and others, that help the poor that aren't getting any money at all as long as the government is shut. states by and large have some money to cover these benefits, but if this goes into november, we're pretty sure that that's going to start either running out or states are just going to lose the desire to cover that with their own money, which will mean that benefits don't get out and needy families don't have the support. >> well, in fact, more than 7,000 preschoolers were about to be denied head start because the government shutdown, but something unusual happened. can you tell us what that was? >> yeah, we saw some wealthy philanthropist step in with private money to cover that gap and make sure that those classrooms weren't closed, which was great. except that we know come november 1st, 86,000 children could potentially be impacted by the shutdown. the national association has warned itself that private money will probably run out and won't be able to cover the cost. so if this goes into november, we can probably expect to see

low-income preschoolers lose access to their classrooms. >> and what other kinds of programs might shut down if we get into november? >> late october we see food stamps that will stop going out. heating vouchers that help needy families pay for heat as winter comes, temperatures are dropping. we already know maine isn't even giving out those vouchers. more will join it. childcare subsidies might start drying up. some schools that receive government funding called impact aid are going to have to either borrow money or fire staff if they don't get those funds in time. so a lot of programs right now are kind of hobbling along, and if this goes into november, they're going to start shutting down. >> deep sigh is all i can say to that. thank you very much. >> thank you. a warning from one pilots uni union about its knew terror fears. is the concern a valid one? we're going to ask an expert. customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online

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to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her, she's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. more pills? seriously? seriously. [ groans ] all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. can i get my aleve back? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

protest on the mall. demonstrators remove barricades at the closed world war ii memorial. back to work, what can the senate do today to prevent what could be even worse than a government shutdown? live from capitol hill next. a warning from one pilots union about its new terror fears. is the concern a valid one? and solo sniper? a new book on why lee harvey oswald was more than capable of killing president kennedy all on his own. hello, everyone. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." 1:00 here in the east, 10:00 a.m. out west. let's get to what's happening. day 13 of the government shutdown. after meetings yesterday, the senate is back at it this hour. today's session comes after talks broke down yesterday between the white house and house republicans over a deal to end the shutdown and raise the debt ceiling. the u.s. will hit that debt

ceiling in four days if no agreement is reached. that threatens a federal default. both parties are sounding off today. >> with the president, with senate democrats, with senate republicans, there's a will. we now have to find a way. we know the house won't find that way, so the whole -- all of it rests on our shoulders. >> i think compromise is in the eyes of the beholder. i'm willing to compromise. we've offered 13 compromises this week to open the government. the democrats have rejected each one of them. >> to think someone would inflict this much pain, this is hard to believe. i didn't sign up for this type of duty. i didn't sign up for public service to put an undue pain on people. it's hard for any of us to accept that. >> lawmakers are looking to high-level bargaining between senate majority leader harry reid and senate minority leader mitch mcconnell to reach a deal. nbc's kelly o'donnell is monitoring things from capitol hill. where do things stand?

>> there have been no new conversations between senate democrats and republicans since a breakthrough meeting yesterday morning where they did sit down and did talk about trying to sort of take over this negotiati negotiation, putting less emphasis on the house. that meeting yesterday was a case where a plan that has been talked about a lot in the last couple of days, which involves democrats and republicans led by susan collins, that was put on the table but rejected by senate democrats and the white house. since that time, there have been no new conversations. senator harry reid, who's the majority leader, just returned to the senate floor. we expect the floor will be open today for senators to come forward and talk about where things stand. honestly, i do not expect any breakthrough today. sources in both parties say there are no conversations scheduled. of course, that can change at any moment. if one of the leaders wants to pick up the phone and reach out to the other.

the optimism we saw yesterday is a bit tempered right now. here's how senator harry reid described it when things were looking good. >> this should be seen as something very positive. even though we don't have anything done yet and a long ways to go before anything like that will happen. that's a relative term. minutes, hours, days. we're trying to figure out a way to go forward. >> and so right now senator harry reid is on the floor sort of giving the state of play for today. it is considered a positive thing that senators are involved, but we've only got a few days to go. being a sunday and tomorrow is sort of a legal holiday, but what is a legal holiday when the government is shutdown? there's a lot of concern about what will happen when the markets reopen. some trading tomorrow expected. therefore, that's a key sign, alex, they'll be looking for any outside pressure coming from the economy, so to speak, to try to maybe shake things loose.

positive sign that talking began but nothing new to say about that since yesterday. so it feels like we're in a bit of a pause moment. >> okay. in fact, we're going to take a pause right now and listen to senator reid on the floor. let's take a listen to that. thank, kelly. unfortunately, we're not able to track his microphone. well, we'll take kelly's word for it. you can see there he's speaking on the floor. let's bring in representative charlie rangel. you heard earlier in the broadcast senator chuck schumer saying that it's now up to the senate. you as a member of the house, do you agree with that? is the ball completely in their court? are you going to get it back to your court? >> there's no question in my mind that the solution of this is going to be in the senate. hopefully speaker boehner may find some face-saving device in being able to say that he's

given into the extremes of this party over and over and over. as a republican, as a member of congress, but more importantly as a patriot, he cannot see the debt ceiling not being increased and he's not going to be the person responsible for the default. >> okay. >> and you can bet your life that you can forget about the default. the rich and the powerful have already alerted the house republicans and the senate republicans that they can do what they want with the affordable care act. they can do what they want with the continue resolution. but don't mess with that debt ceiling and their treasures and that's that. >> so you're striking a somewhat different tone than what we heard from senate majority leader harry reid, who said, we're a ways away yet. he's offering caution. you're thinking thursday's going to come and we'll have a deal? >> at least on the debt ceiling.

you can bet your life on it. there's no way in the world that the 1% of american that owns 20% of our wealth is going to allow that wealth to go down the tube because of a handful of republicans that want to bring down the government. it's not going to happen. doesn't make any sense. as a matter of fact, the last time i was on the show, i told you that the house republicans were going to back down off the health care, and they didn't back down off a cr. when they went to meet with the president, the only thing that they said that they want to agree on what, was? the debt ceiling. >> speaking of health care, affordable care act, obama care, whatever you want to call it, it looked for a while yesterday as if senator susan collins' plan was the one that might go forward. this is one that included some changes to obama care, affordable health care plan. is that something you could accept, a deal that would touch obama care for any way shape or

form? >> i don't know what senators talk about. they talk with each other. they think they have agreements. until the leadership agrees to it, what these senators do don't really amount to anything except a press release. the truth of the matter is, if they take care of the debt ceiling, reid will have to go along. that's the only reason he's meeting with the republican minority leader to make certain that come wednesday our country is not in default. because 25% of their riches is really in havens abroad. the international market depends on our dollar. if we default, that means that people don't trust us. if they don't trust us, they don't trust the bucks. the billions and trillions of dollars that the rich have is based on the united states dollar. you devalue that and they're out of business. >> you're absolutely echoing the sentiments of the imf chair.

she was on "meet the press" earlier. that will be replayed after this show. she said she was talking with 300 finance ministers from around the world. she says that there is grave concern over what's happening because of the global economic effect. with regard to the solution here, if the senate passes something, then it comes back to it the house. will it pass there? >> yes. all boehner has to do is become the patriot, become the person saving the country from continuous pain. what the closedown is doing is killing the middle class. i don't know how to describe it, but what has made this country great has not been rich and poor. it's been the driver of the middle class,s a spiring to have no ceiling, keeping jobs, keeping small businesses, and now they're sliding into poverty. we have now the widest disparity

that we've ever had. one out of five kids is born in poverty. we still have 10% of the american people enjoying 70% of the wealth. this is irreparable damage that's being done to our country. >> may i ask with regard to representative boehner, because i'm fascinated by the position that he is in. ultimately, does his choice come down to saving the country versus saving his job? >> let me say this in respect to speaker boehner. we politicians, whether it's president, chairman, or speaker, are not entitled to rational care when it comes to power. there's no question in my mind that whether it's harvard or whether it's the presidency, they put something in the water that -- or the senator for that matter. i truly believe that there comes a point where speaker boehner has to decide whether his speakership is nearly as important as the rescue of the

united states government and also the rescue of paying back our debts to people that we owe. that has been a rough decision for him. what i'm trying to say is, one of those decisions are not going to be -- that's going to be difficult. whether you're tea party or moderate republican or a conservative, when wall street calls, they respond. all of them are one way or the other connected with groups of people that finance their elections and finance some of their extreme positions. wall street and the rich and the powerful are not thinking about allowing one person or 435 members of the house and 100 in the senate to destroy what they've built over, i might say, this generation. >> representative charlie rangel, always a pleasure. we'll have you back here soon. >> i look forward to it. today, protesters are

gathering at the national mall to demand the world war ii memorial be reopened regardless of the government shutdown. they're asking anyone who feels similarly to join the protest. derek ward from our washington, d.c. station wrc is following the story for us. derek, to you. >> reporter: hi, alex. we're here across from the world war ii memorial in washington, d.c. i want to explain what's going on behind me now. this started out about an hour or two this morning. we had protesters showing up, taking down the barricades that had been up around this memorial since the shutdown happened. then we had speeches inside the memorial, speakers like ted cruz, sarah palin showed up. this was decidedly more political than the others. a lot of these protests spring up around the honor flights that come to washington. well, there's no honor flight here today for this, but this rally did, indeed, happen. a short time ago some of the truckers made the circuit around the memorial as well. the truck convoy we've heard about that was coming to washington, calling for the impeachment of the president. at that point, folks moved out into the street and the police

showed up. that's where we are right now. there's police officers, police vehicles there. pretty much here to restore order or keep order, keep people out of the street or keep traffic moving. the street has been closed off pretty much since this protest took on this phase. we're live in washington, derek ward, back to you. >> thank you, derek. in a moment, calculating another toll from the shutdown. who will pay a political price? my asthma's under control. i get out a lot... except when it's too cold. like the last three weekends. asthma doesn't affect my job... you missed the meeting again last week!

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well, the national debt clock says it all there. the debt currently accrued $16.9 billion. that's about $200 billion above the debt ceiling. i meant trillion, there. as of thursday, the treasury says the government will simply not have enough cash on hand to pay its bills. the senate is in session right now. a day after senate majority leader harry reid began

one-on-one talks with senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. joining me now, msnbc contributor perry bacon jr., and christina belantoni. perry, we have senator reid saying negotiations with senator mcconnell are in the earliest of stages but hopes to have a deal fairly soon. how realistic is that? >> thursday is the day. so thursday is a really big day here. neither party wants to go over the debt ceiling. i think in some ways the negotiations have to go pretty quickly if only because time is running out. i really think in particular the republican party, you saw those polls last week. the nbc poll. their party is at the lowest it's been ever on some level by the measures of that poll. so i think they don't want to, you know -- they've already pushed for a shutdown. that's driven the numbers down. they don't want to go over the debt ceiling and be blamed for that as well. there's a strong incident for the republicans to find some way through this. i expect by thursday they will. >> okay. christina, there was a lot of

talk yesterday about republican senator susan collins' plan. she offered one to reopen the government with a spending bill for six month, also to lift the debt ceiling through january. senate democratic leaders rejected that. what happened there? >> one thing is that senate democrats are weary that the president is going to cut a deal with republicans to, as perry says, avoid default on thursday. that's not going to be something they like. so they just didn't have the votes there. it's kind of rare to see a vote like that where they put it forward on the floor when they're not confident there's support for it. these are are the early stages of the negotiation. harry reid's aides are saying there's all kinds of conversations going on behind the scenes. it's on the senate now to negotiate a deal that's going to be palpable to enough people that then when it goes over to the house, john boehner again is faced with a tough decision, even if the majority of his members don't like it but it has the votes to pass. he's said many, many times he does not want to go into default.

>> perry, here's what senator reid said about meeting with senator mcconnell. here's that. >> obama care is no longer their number one issue. their number one issue is to do anything they can to divert attention from the fools they made of themselves on obama care. so we're taking nothing off the table. >> so if obama care is no longer the number one issue, what do republicans want? >> my sense is the republicans don't really know what they want. what they want more than anything else is they don't want to feel like they've completely lost this. you heard a member of congress say a couple weeks ago, we don't want to be humiliated. he used the word humiliated by praul. the republicans realize they've mostly lost the public relations are debate here. their poll numbers are down. obama's are up. they don't want to force a shutdown and then not get anything out of it. i think you're seeing them push toward trying to get the medical device tax in the health care law repealed. they want to get some small part of the health care law repealed.

they also want to get some kind of broader budget negotiations started through this process. the challenge is president obama's determined to not, quote/unquote reward the republicans to use the debt ceiling as some ransom, in his words. you have a push/pull here where basically for one side to lose, one side has to win and vice versa. you have to -- it's really hard to have a negotiation where both sides view this as a victory. that's why it's coming down until thursday. the republicans are not only arguing about policy anymore. they're arguing about winning or not losing by too much. >> christina, let's listen to republican senator lindsey graham today. here's that. >> to my colleagues in the house on both sides and to my friends in the senate, we're ruining both institutions. it is unrealistic to expect us to be able to defund or delay obama care by shutting the government down, but the fight on obama care is far from over. >> i don't see why the president is not accepting that, why he's not working with us.

i think it's been very difficult to work with him. >> so if this is what we're hearing from these lawmakers today, does that sound like a deal is going to be reached before thursday? >> well, no offense to either of those republicans, but they are not really the deal makers here. harry reid is a very key player here. it is important to point out, you know, everything perry said is completely right. people don't want to lose this battle. the republicans have already gotten something out of it. the argument about how much you're spending to fund the government, it is a sequester-level spending amount. this is already a big cut in government spending. there have been a lot of cuts in government spending since the republicans took over the house. democrats keep pointing that out. you've already gotten something. that makes it really hard to negotiate when you don't have that, you know, real incentive to hang over their head. the other big sticking point is for how long you do it. the politics matter as well been a lot of democrats would prefer to see this debt ceiling lifted so that you don't have to take another vote before the 2014 midterm elections when you've got vulnerable democratic

senators on ballot. a lot of those internal machinations are what's driving this. i think it's going to be another day at least until we know what they're going to work out. >> yeah, yeah. hey, perry, looking at one of your recent articles, "three groups that define the government shutdown," can you break that down? >> obviously the democrats are -- president obama, the senate democrats have a strong view. they want to not only -- they want to keep obama care as it is. they want to open the government. and they want to make sure the republicans don't continue to have this debt ceiling vat ji over and over and over again. but the republicans are pretty divided. you have one group, and you can probably put john boehner in this, republicans who want to push and reduce spending but they don't view this as an end all and be all. remember john boehner in november actually said obama care is the law of the land. he hinted they would stop fighting over it. but you have a group of republicans, particularly in the house, 30 or 40, i would also

put ted cruz, mike lee, rand paul in that group, who do believe this is a fundamental fight. for them, the shutdown is worth it. ted cruz was defending the shutdown in a speech on friday because for him, obama care is kind of an existential issue where he thinks having obama care is law, continuing it is worth having a shutdown. that's the big divide, between those two blocks of republicans. maybe what i would call the governing republicans and the tea party republicans. >> okay. guys, thank you so much. lee harvey oswald's lost days in the ussr. what happened there that could shed light on the killing of a president? a new book's fresh take, next. lyrics: 'take on me...' ♪

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the debt ceiling deadline. joining us from the white house is nbc's kristen welker. i understand the president is meeting with his senior staff this morning. any plans for more meetings with republicans? >> right now, no, alex. i can tell you we don't expect to see or hear from president obama today. that's the signal right now from the white house. doesn't mean he won't meet with lawmakers, but right now no meetings are scheduled. you're absolutely right. he's been huddled here with his top officials. i can tell you, though, that dennis mcdonough, his chief of staff, just left the white house to grab some lunch. i asked him how things were going. he said, great day, but wouldn't say more than that. doesn't give us a lot of indication about where these talks are headed. based on my discussions with aides on the hill, it appears those discussions are stalled right now at least. senator harry reid really digging in his heels over this issue of wanting to increase the sequester spending levels. republicans saying that's a no

go for them. so where do we go from here? it's a big question mark. again, all eyes are on the senate as thee negotiations have shifted to that body. on the morning talk shows, both sides continued to dig in their heels. take a listen to what rob portman had to say on "meet the press." >> congress can't do its job unless democrats are willing to talk. the reason what harry reid just said was a breakthrough is the president has refused to negotiate. i mean, it's unbelievable. this is the first time in history that a president of the united states has said, look, i'm not even going to talk about it. >> and in response to that argument, white house officials say, look, the president's not going to negotiate over reopening the government or increasing the debt limit, but he will negotiate about the budget once those two things happen. so that is where we are. that is where we have been for several days. still, the tone has changed here a bit, alex. it's important to note that lawmakers acknowledging that there is increasing pressure for them to get something done,

marly ahead of this thursday deadline. that is when the country runs out of money to pay its bills, defaults on its loans. a lot of pressure for them to increase the so-called debt ceiling. we should also say that on "meet the press" today, during david gregory's exclusive interview with the imf chief, she said if the u.s. were to default on its loans, it could have a global impact. lawmakers certainly feeling the pressure. >> but once again, running right up to the deadline. >> once again. >> i tell you. kristen, thank you so much. >> thank you. thanks to an infusion of state funding, national parks in five states have reopened or are about to. the statue of liberty is welcoming visitors beginning today, but only for a limited engagement. the state is spending almost $62,000 a day to keep lady liberty open through thursday. the grand canyon reopened yesterday with daily funding of about $93,000. the state figures that's a good deal considering the 18,000 daily visitors spend about $1 million each day.

you can see why state officials say the local tourist industry really needed the park reopened. >> over $1 million a day in terms of gross revenues. the river operators, i think, lost $900,000 in the first 11 days. it was a financial and economic disaster for all of us. >> three other states are also providing funding for reonnings. zion national park is among the five national parks that utah reopened yesterday for ten days. as did colorado's rocky mountain national park and south dakota's mt. rushmore will reopen tomorrow. meanwhile, the great smokey mountains national park remains closed. that's brought out protesters. >> they have no right to close this park. there's no reason for it. they need to open it up. >> i wait tables here. sales are down terribly. the people can't get married. you plan a wedding for years and you can't get married in the park. >> well, there is hope, however,

for these folks. tennessee is also reportedly working on a plan to reopen the state's five national parks. so far, the 13-day government shutdown has cost the u.s. economy more than $2 billion. in fact, one leading marketing research firm puts the cost of week one at $1.6 billion and estimates each workday losses average $160 million. in just a few minutes, we'll get the big three's take on the potential impact the government shutdown will have on the 2014 midterm elections. switching gears here. a new book is out tuesday that examines the mystery surrounding lee harvey oswald's time in the soviet union and how it might have affected the killing of president john f. kennedy, who was shot and killed in dallas 50 years ago next month. the new book "the interloper" goes into the mind of oswald and sheds some light on his missing years inside the soviet union. joining me now, the author of that book. he also spent years working in russia. peter, with a welcome to you.

so fascinating. >> thank you. >> as you are well aware, a lot of people out there still think oswald was incapable of acting alone, that he was part of a larger assassination plot. you beg to differ. why? >> i do. there's overwhelming evidence that oswald acted alone. all the conspiracy theories, you know, want to look at discreet bits of information. if you look at all of the information, most importantly oswald and his biography, his psychology, there's no escaping the conclusion that he was the lone gunman. >> so peter, why did he move to the soviet union? what was he hoping to find there he couldn't find here in the u.s.? >> well, alex, he was hoping to find meaning. he went to the soviet union because he was trying to escape his mother. he'd gone to the marines. it had been a miserable experience. he defected to russia, hoping that he would be able to join some revolution. the kgb thought he was nuts and shipped him off to this very sleepy, provincial town and he

didn't like it, but that was the idea. it was that he was going to find himself. he was going to become the man he wanted to be. >> but interestingly, even though the kgb didn't have any reason to keep him because the guy couldn't offer up anything of covert or secret information they didn't already know, when they set him up, as you describe it, it was like a soviet-ized truman show kpexistence. they monitored him. >> they watched him always. there's the peephole. there was the fact that -- apare should say. >> yes, from the neighboring apartment. from across the riverbank, you had a clear view into the main room. then, of course, all the people in his life were informing on him. >> did that include his wife? there's been speculation she was a kgb informant. >> yeah, probably. the easiest thing for the kgb to

have done was simply to corner people after they came into contact with oswald and to say, look, you know, we can supplement your income, we can make sure that your mother gets that operation she needs, or conversely we can make sure she does not get it. so you'd best cooperate with us. and they did. >> ultimately, you say that oswald became a lazy, whiney american who built television sets in minsk. the soviet union and u.s. had to agree to let him return home. due to that, you suggest the russians were partly responsible for oswald to return to the u.s. and ultimately murder president kennedy. explain that. >> well, you know, i don't think they had anything at all to do with the assassination itself. ultimately, i think they thought it was probably in their best interest for them to allow him to go back to the united states. so in that regard, you could say that they're somehow responsible very, very indirectly. but ultimately, of course, it's

oswald who is to be held accountable. >> and you say ultimately about oswald that his return to america marked his greatest failure in a life shot through with failures. what was it about his life that you think led him to kill president kennedy? >> well, so if you look at the pattern of oswald's life, he moved i think it was something like 20 times before he went to the marine corps when he was 1717. of course, he tried to escape his mother in the marines. then he moves on to the soviet union because the marines was a total failure. the soviet union was supposed to be end of the road, where he found happiness. that never actually happened. oswald himself was a disaster. he came back to the united states. in fact, he lasted about as long as he was expected or should be expected to have lasted given all the other chapters in his life. in this regard, the assassination, the homicide is as much a suicide as it is anything else. >> indeed. well, peter, best of luck with

this book. it's called "the interloper: lee harvey oswald inside the soviet uni union." thank you for your time. >> thank you. reports say this memo highlights several cases of what appear to be tests for reaction from airline crews in the frightening event of an in-flight threat. joining me now, retired atf special agent and nbc law enforcement analyst jim cavanaugh. this report so interesting. it says the most recent case happened just last month. a flight from reagan international to orlando. one man bolts from his seat, goes into a bathroom, and while he's inside, three others move around the cabin. they're changing seats. they're creating havoc, opening overhead bins. i should point out that nbc counterterrorism analyst says this doesn't suggest a dry run, that they wouldn't cause such commotion. but couldn't they maybe be pushing the envelope as far as possible to see what they could

mostly get away with? >> well, let's look at it from a distance, alex. you know, dry runs are real. they did them in 9/11. they did them in the london train bombings. they did them in many other terrorist attacks. we know dry runs are real. al qaeda is noted for planning, planning, and planning. so are their affiliate groups. but -- so the thing is, an alert passenger is always going to be a safer passenger and report it. trying to sort out this orlando flight one is kind of tough. is that really a dry run? you know, rodger makes a great point. if you look at the dry run in 9/11, nobody detected it. they really are trying to observe without being observed. in a joint terrorism task force, and i had a number of those i participated in with fbi and all the law enforcement head agents on many of them, and we got a lot of reports about activity like this. we had to sort through it. some of it's real. some of it's not. cultural differences, language

barriers, and the way people act sometimes is a dry run. other times it's actually activity. >> so as i look at this u.s. airline pilots association memo here, how credible is this union? >> no, i think i would take the warning serious. i would listen to the pilots. i would definitely say to everybody who flies, being alert will make you safer. look at what happened on the subway in california recently. a man pulled out a gun, and everybody's on their smart phones and doesn't see him. if the terrorist could hand out smart phones, they could hypnotize us all and do what they want. you need to pay attention to your surroundings, report it to the flight crew. we are in a dangerous time. i mean, al qaeda is wanting revenge for bin laden's -- you know, getting his justice. they want revenge for the u.s. on drone strikes in yemen and on many leaders of there. they're really wanting to attack us. they're always going to have

transportation in their eye. >> this description, though, quickly, jim, first of all in terms of the numbers of the air marshals that are on planes right now, i describe one man bolts into the bathroom and the other three are there creating havoc at one time, opening overhead bins and letting things drop, being loud and confusing to people. how would an air marshal react to that? >> well, the air marshal is going to stay pretty quiet until he sees what develops. you can have the first man jump up and stay to his friends and relatives, i'm having chest pains, i'm having a heart attack, find my pills. he runs to the bathroom, slams the door. two of three of his friends, relatives jump up. they don't know where his bag is. they start rummaging through the overhead, trying to find a pill. it looks horrible to the rest of the passengers, but it may be able to be sorted out by law enforcement later that it wasn't a dry run. we don't know this this case. it could have been. i think the airline pilots are right to let's be cautious. see it, report it.

>> very good reminder as always. jim, thanks. >> thanks, alex. the ripple effect of the fiscal fights on 2014. the likely winners and losers next with the big three. your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. big plans. so when i found out medicare doesn't pay all my medical expenses, i looked at my options. then i got a medicare supplement insurance plan. [ male announcer ] if you're eligible for medicare, you may know it only covers about 80% of your part b medical expenses. the rest is up to you.

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it's time for the big three. today's topics, 2014, blame game, and this week's must read. let's bring in my big three panel. republican strategist and former white house aide, joe watkins. professor of political science, jason johnson. and editor of citizen and contributor for newsweek, patricia murphy. welcome back to all of you. we're going to go to 2014. there's this new article in "the new york times." here's the quote. instead of sharpening their attack on democrats, republicans on capitol hill are being forced to explain why they are not to blame and why americans should trust them to govern both houses of congress when the one they do run is in such disarray. joe, what do you think considering everything that's

going on right now? >> of course, the american public has a dim view of congress right now. congress has some of the lowest rating numbers its had in a long time. remember, all politics are local. how americans feel about the congress in general is different from how they feel about their particular member of congress. so there's a chance still for republicans to do better today, maybe even to win a majority in the senate despite the fact we've had this government shutdown. >> you know what's interesting, patricia? this article points out that house republicans feel more comfortable keeping their seats because of the carefully redrawn districts, the gerrymandering. that's not the case in the senate. so what will the impact be in term of next year's midterms in that part of congress? >> i think the house is looking worse and worse for republicans. it's not only because of what republicans have done and how they've handled the government shutdown, which every poll shows that most americans blame republicans for that. there's also a very unusual dynamic happening within the

u.s. senate that their outside, independent conservative groups running ads against sitting u.s. republican senators. right now they don't only have to worry about democrats they're running against, they have forces within their own party currently running ads against them, calling them weak leaders, saying they're not in politics for you, they're in politics for themselves. so republicans are literally their own worst enemies right now and for a party that wants to retake the senate, that must pick up at least six senate seats, they're making their own job almost impossible. >> jason, how do we interpret the overall political landscape? is the gop committing party suicide in one sense, or is that just wishful spinning by democrats? >> yeah, at this point, you know, a wise con federal general once said, you know, never get close to a circular firing squad. that's what the republicans are doing right now. i mean, the senate is arguing with the other senators and the house is arguing with the senate. the republicans are killing themselves. they really could have solved a lot of these problems had they not caused this government shutdown. they could have just let obama

care roll out absolutely fail by next summer and run on that. unfortunately now they've given themselves a terrible reputation. the landscape does not look pretty. a week is a lifetime in politics. if this issue endsthat. if this issue lasts into next summer, the republicans have no chance of gaining seats in the senate and will probably lose seats in the house. >> moving on to blame game. take a listen to some of the back and forth going on. >> it isn't appear as though the president wants anything except more tax revenue or tax increases yet again 37. >> house republicans decided they would take obama care hostage and shut down our government. >> we're getting a bait and switch strategy from the white house. the president apparently was not negotiating in good faith. >> troubling to me that not a single republican would step up and allow us to start the debate on whether or not we avoid the debt ceiling default. >> we're trying to protect our children and our grandchildren's future. and the president just wants

which is as usual, spend money we don't have. >> it's hard for me to comprehend, but every republican voted against this. this was a motion to proceed. >> pa treasuisha, isn't this whe american public is sick of? >> this is why the con has a 5% approval rating. and i don't know who those 5% of people are. john mccain says it's blood relatives and paid staffers. so since the staffers aren't getting paid, i don't think they're liking congress very much anyway. and i think the democrats are making a mistake to think this is a pure political win for them. yes, 70% of people disapprove of what republicans are doing. 59% of people disapprove of what democrats are doing. and that is not a recipe for winning back any particular house of congress. and so i think democrats also, they are pushing the republicans very, very hard right now. they have added sort of a back pedaling piece of this that's not to get into too many

details, but i think democrats are in danger of overreaching on this. they are pushing republicans harder than they even need to push them. and nobody is winning in this scenario right now. >> jason, sick of it? what do you think? >> yeah, it's really simple. the republicans have overplayed their hand. they thought barack obama was the same obama from the first term who was going to be left naked at the poker table like he always was. and this time he has some backbone. he knows he doesn't have to run again. so will everyone get harmed? of course everyone will get harmed. but the republicans will get harmed worse and that's bad long term strategy not just for 2014, but for 2016. but ted cruz and any of these guys associated with this will have to answer for it when they run against hillary clinton. >> joe, you're going first after the break. twitter's must reads next. at fe. copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment

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we're back with the big three. joe, what's yours. >> my must read of course is by

maureen dowd, a piece called a mad tea party. it's a funny piece and not complime complime complime complimentary to republicans, but a good read. jason, yours. >> i'm an eagles fan, but this article is in "time" magazine talking about a mysterious defense of the washington redskins name. if you want to understand why that team needs to change, it's a great article to read. just common sense. >> that issue is really building steam. okay. patricia, how about yours. >> mine is the twitter feed for robert costa at the national review online. he covers republican leadership and his twitter feed is like for the right and left half of the brains of the republican party. like the white smoke of the vatican. this guy has covered the republicans top to bottom. he gets all the twists and turns and it's just a great read.

>> very progressive of you you. okay. joe, jason, and papatricia, thas so much. that's a wrap. good-bye, every. up next, "meet the press". discover card. i asked my husband to pay our bill, and he forgot. you have the it card and it's your first time missing a payment, so there's no late fee. really? yep! so is your husband off the hook? no. he went out for milk last week and came back with a puppy. hold it. hold it. hold it. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness.

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[ woman #5 ] to travel the world without leaving home. [ male announcer ] whatever the reason. whatever the dish. make it delicious with swanson. [ woman #1 ] that's why i cook. day 13 of the government shutdown of 2013. are we moving closer to the brink of agreement or to the brink of default? >> as soon as congress votes to reopen the government, it's also got to vote to meet our country's commitments, pay our bills, raise the debt ceiling. >> it's time for leadership. it's time for these negotiations and this conversation to begin. >> but with democratic and republican leaders at an impasse, when will we get a final solution to our fiscal mess. we have two key senate leaders from both sides of the aisle to answer just how congress can find a way out. plus, the u.s. is meeting with sharp criticism from the rest of e