♪ [ woman #5 ] to travel the world without leaving home. [ male announcer ] whatever the reason. whatever the dish. make it delicious with swanson. [ woman #1 ] that's why i cook. day 13 of the government shutdown of 2013. are we moving closer to the brink of agreement or to the brink of default? >> as soon as congress votes to reopen the government, it's also got to vote to meet our country's commitments, pay our bills, raise the debt ceiling. >> it's time for leadership. it's time for these negotiations and this conversation to begin. >> but with democratic and republican leaders at an impasse, when will we get a final solution to our fiscal mess. we have two key senate leaders from both sides of the aisle to answer just how congress can find a way out. plus, the u.s. is meeting with sharp criticism from the rest of the world over the nation's crisis.

my interview with christine lagarde, head of the monetary fund. i'll ask her what kind of damage has been done to america's reputation and how that could affect the world's economy. and former secretary of defense, leon panetta. is the shutdown hurting our national security, and what he thinks is different today from the last shutdown in 1996. >> policy of threats and basically holding the country hostage whether it's on a continuing resolution or debt ceiling or raising these kinds of blackmail approaches. >> i'm david gregory. all that ahead on this edition of "meet the press" for sunday, october 13. >> from nbc news in washington, the world's longest-running television program, this is "meet the press." >> and good sunday morning. wish there were better news to tell you but congress and president obama are still crawling to the finish line in

the race to end the fiscal crisis with the deadline this coming thursday. the focus is now in the senate. in session today, house speaker john boehner annouced saturday the talks between the house gop and president obama had broken down. so bottom line, there is no agreement on ending the shutdown of the government or raising the nation's debt limit. joining me now, the assistant majority leader of the senate, dick durbin and the senator of ohio, rob portman. the senate majority leader said this on saturday. let me share it with our audience. >> i hope there is talking to give some solace to the american people and the world. >> this is what should pass for progress in congress and washington doing its job? take solace in the fact that you're just talking? >> it's a breakthrough. hard to imagine, but it's a breakthrough. we've reached a point where the house republicans and their leadership have really stepped to the sidelines. they're not part of this at this point.

they can't agree among themselves about what they want to have done in this negotiation. the conversation that started yesterday between senator mcconnell, the republican senate leader, and senator reid, i think, has the promise of finding a solution. i don't want to be overly optimistic, but there's a lot at stake. it isn't just the government shutdown, and that's laid off 800,000 federal employees and denied basic services. it goes way beyond this, as we know. if in four days we default on our debt for the first time in our history, it is going to have a dramatic negative impact. >> senator portman, i want to get beyond talking points, i want to get beyond just pure argument. the american people simply want to know, why can't congress do its job? >> first of all, congress can't do its job unless democrats are willing to talk, and the reason he said it was a breakthrough is because the president has refused to negotiate. it's unbelievable. this is the first time in history that a president of the united states has said, look, i'm not even going to talk about it.

i served through presidents bush 1 and 2, leon panetta has served through other presidents. why? you want to deal with the underlying problem, which is the spending problem. >> is it both of your positions -- i think this is an important moment of clarity. do you both believe it's 100% the other side's fault? >> here's the point we've reached. we should have been in a budget conference six months ago to discuss these issues. we tried 21 times in the senate to have a budget conference. >> that's the question. is it 100% the republicans' fault that we're here? >> if i could say there was fault on both sides,but the

republicans in the senate wouldn't even allow us to go to a budget conference. >> is it 100% the president and democrats' fault, senator? >> with all due respect, when the senate refused to put a budget out, democrats said, we don't need a budget, we can still have these appropriations bills. which is where we are, dick is right, not having appropriations bills. i would say the bipartisanship over the last few decades have been republicans and democrats alike overpromising and overspending. there's fault on both sides. that's why the president and leaders of congress need to take the responsibility of dealing with the underlying problem and keep the budget caps in place, which, my gosh, we just put them in place two years ago, we've added almost $2 trillion to the debt since then, and now the democrats are saying we want to bust those caps, but second, on the debt limit, we need to make sure we're dealing with the underlying problem which is almost a $17 trillion national debt. the president says he wants to do that, so let's work together to do it. >> i want to ask each of you the bottom line question. do we have an agreement on raising the debt ceiling and

ending the government shutdown by thursday, and if the answer is yes, senator durbin, what do you have to overcome? what are the real sticking points that have to be overcome? do you think you'll have it by thursday and what are the sticking points you have now? >> i'm a hopeful person and i hope we can do it. i hope sensible people prevail, because at this point it isn't just a shutdown and all the damage it's caused, but if we default on our debt it will have a dramatic negative impact on the savings account of average americans. whether or not we will sit down in a budget conference finally and start hammering it out, whether there will be a sequester cut come the first 15 days of the new year, the new calendar year, those are the basic elements that i think we need to work on.

>> i'm a yes, by the way. >> deal by thursday? >> yes. >> because you would have overcome what obstacle? >> because we would have decided as a congress that we need to avoid going over the debt limit and it will probably be a rather short-term solution. >> you know house republicans in particular, they seem quite unhappy here. they don't want to do a long-term extension raising of the debt ceiling. they want to have a conversation about obama care. in your estimation, should the discussion about obama care be over? >> well, first of all, i oppose obama care and think we ought to repeal it and replace it, and i think most americans agree with that. but we can minimize the damage in this process by doing certain things that were consistent with the original obama care like making people verify their income when they go on exchanges. we're dealing with a 40-hour work week so when people aren't taking in 30 hours and below part-time work. but no, i think we ought to focus on these spending issues, we can and should. i don't think there will be a long-term solution in the next two days, but i think we'll figure out a way to put off the

discussion and i hope we do it in the next couple days. >> if you get past a crisis point and say, well, let's get into a bigger discussion about the budget. you were on simpson bowles, you were on the supercommittee. >> it wasn't so super. >> right, and where is there a reason to be hopeful that congress can get to something meaningful here? >> this may be herreca, but i think somp son bowles got it right. put everything on the table. we know ten years from now medicare is not sustainable financially. we have to do something. why wait ten years to see that reality? we know social security has 20 years, or perhaps less? what are we going to do about it today in a small way that it will have that longevity? we have a tax code that takes

$1.3 trillion out of the treasury each year, and in that we cannot find some savings, closing some loopholes, quote, raising some revenue? of course we can. >> let me just raise this issue about obama care because i want to come back to that. one of the issues is that for conservatives this has been such a huge issue. even though laws have been passed and upheld by the court, no, there is a basis to try to replace it, to get rid of it. then you have dr. ben carson who won the straw poll by voters here in washington. this is what he said on friday. i want to get your response. >> i have to tell you, you know, obama care is really, i think, the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. and it is slavery, in a way. >> he was second in the straw poll. how much damage does that do to your position that obama care should be repealed?

is that overstatement that's counterproductive? >> well, he's a doctor who feels passionately about this issue, obviously. he can speak for himself, but let me go back to what dick said. >> is that something that as a senior republican, you think, is helpful to the debate about obama care? >> i think what would be helpful is if we sat down and figured out how to make this less damaging to american families and our american economy because it is a huge problem. by the way, it's not just a glitch in terms of the rollout, it's a breakdown, having tried myself to get on yesterday. i feel sorry for the "new york times" researcher i heard about this morning who spent 11 days trying to get on and ended up with a blank screen. there are huge problems with it, let's be honest, and we ought to be sure we can minimize the damage. >> does secretary sebelius keep her job? >> absolutely. understand, we've been off to a rocky start for sure because 15 million people wanted to get on. why? because 40 or 50 million americans don't have any insurance. this is their first chance, many of them, to ever have health insurance.

they're desperate for an affordable health insurance policy. we haven't had much help when it comes to funding the startup of obama care. >> senator roberts, your colleague in the senate, said secretary sebelius, head of health and human services, should resign. >> i don't think that will solve the problem, unfortunately. i think it's much deeper than that. i think the law is fundamentally flawed. i think this rollout is a disaster, not just a glitch. but i want to say something positive here about my colleague here. he has been willing and he's shown political courage to do so to talk about these issues. i think this morning if we can leave with anything it is that this is an opportunity over the next couple days, but really over the next couple months, because i think we'll probably push this down the road a little bit, to deal with the underlying problem. and that is the fact that we have these historic levels of debt and deficit that are hurting the economy today.

it's like a wet blanket on the economy today. that's why, in my view, we're not getting the robust recovery we're hoping for, but it is a war for future generations. we keep building up this debt and deficit, and dick is right, we have to deal with part of the budget that is not being talked about, which is two-thirds of the budget in the fastest growing part, and if we don't do that, we will have failed. if we do do that, we will surprise the american people and do the right thing. >> i have to leave it right there because i'm out of time. thank you, senators. i know you're back to work which is why you're here today, and i thank you very much. let's bring in leon panetta. he served as white house chief of staff, cia director and most recently secretary of defense. i'd name more but we're running out of time in the program. thanks for returning. >> how are you? >> is part of the problem in washington that you have two sides who aren't really interested in negotiating but digging in and saying, look,

this is truly 100% the other side's fault? >> look, there is a lot of politics and sound bite wars going on in this town, and i understand that. i've been part of the political process. but ultimately, i think, both sides are really pretty much at the same place. you know, once you get past some of the rhetoric and some of the extremes, the fact is everybody knows we've got to extend the debt limit in order to avoid that catastrophe. everybody knows we've got to end this crazy shutdown of the federal government that's taken place, stop hurting the american people. and everybody wants to get into negotiations. what you just heard is a good example where republicans and democrats have to engage in the broader negotiations on the budget. on entitlements, all the health care entitlements, on discretionary spending and on tax reform. >> but we talk about it like it's a revelation, an epiphany. even these two senators say, we agree on this, we have to get

back to this. with the last shutdown in 1996, this is what you said then. >> if there's anything we've learned over the last few months is that the policy of threats and basically holding the country hostage, whether it's on a continuing resolution or a debt ceiling or raising these kinds of blackmail approaches to try to get their agenda adopted has not worked. it's been a disaster. >> 17 years ago, the same thing is being said now. >> david, i'm really surprised that the lessons that were learned 17 years ago, that you don't shut the government down, you don't hurt the american people, that that lesson obviously was not learned and it's been repeated. you don't win in this town politically by hurting the american people. and that's what we're doing. we're hurting kids, we're hurting families, we're hurting individuals that are losing

their pay, not paying their mortgages. i mean, why would you allow a small minority who can't get their way to basically take out their vengeance on their fellow citizens? that's what happened. >> you're talking about house republicans, but the president also knew that this day was coming. he also knew what the deadline was and he appears to have made a calculation having just been reelected that, hey, i'm going to preserve for future presidents an ability not to negotiate over the debt ceiling, even though as senator portman pointed out, previous presidents have negotiated on this. that's why we introduced the idea of having to raise the debt ceiling. does the president bear responsibility? you are a democrat, you work for him, but out of government you can take a step back. does he also bear responsibility by playing around with default by pushing it this far? >> i've been 3,000 miles from washington. i have to tell you, the american people are angry, they're frustrated, they're mad. they think that this town has gone nuts in the way they're dealing with it, and i think both sides will bear some responsibility for that.

but i think the president has also indicated he's willing to negotiate on the key issues. the republicans want to negotiate on the key issues. for goodness sakes, that's where this ball game has to wind up. it has to wind up in the broader discussion about how do you reduce the deficit, how do you end this crazy sequester? because the fact is we are paying a heavy price right now for what is happening to this country. america is being weakened, and that's the last thing that ought to happen. members swear an oath to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. what they're doing by the shutdown, by this threat on the debt limit, is weakening america and sending a message to the world that the united states can't govern. that's a lousy message for the world to hear. >> when sequester was passed, before it was passed, you warned, as defense secretary, of grave consequences for america's military readiness.

there is some who look at that and say, that was an overstatement. that yes, sequester cuts have hurt. but as you sit here now out of office, out of your job as defense secretary, do you believe america is critically unprepared for a national security threat that can be met? >> i think our readiness has been badly damaged. we've got 12 combat squadrons that have been grounded. half of the air force is not combat ready. we've got ships that are not being deployed. we've got training rotations that have been canceled. we've got 800,000 federal employees that have been furloughed under sequester and that are now taking a hit on the shutdown. all of this is impacting on our readiness and our ability to be able to handle a major crisis outside of afghanistan. >> the president just launched two special operations here to fight terrorists. if that's the number one goal, he seems to have been quite capable of launching that in this past week. >> the s.e.a.l.s and their

operations and our ability to use special forces in these kinds of attacks, yes. but let me tell you something. on the broader crisis such as the middle east, we are going to be impacting on our readiness and our ability to respond to a crisis in that part of the world. >> all right. secretary panetta, i appreciate your time this morning here as well. we will take a break. coming up, washington's dysfunction is on full display as world financial leaders are gathering in washington this weekend. my interview with head of the international monetary fund, christine lagarde, where she says this could cause massive disruption. we're back with "meet the press" in a minute. >> "meet the press" is brought to you by the boeing company. i'm beth...

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against the backdrop of a possible u.s. default, the world financial leaders are in washington this weekend for the international monetary fund's annual meeting. imf serves as the financial watchdog and rescue agency. last night i sat down with the head of the imf, christine lagarde, in this exclusive interview. as we sit here, there is no deal. the american government is barrelling toward default. how scary is this to you? >> it's very concerning. i spent the last three days with 300 finance ministers and central banks from across the world, and the world was doing

better. there was recovery in the u.s. in europe at last. japan was turning the corner. the emerging markets were still growing fast and low-income countries were really showing strong growth. they all came together to talk about the u.s. monetary policy and its impact on emerging market economies and how they should well prepare for that. and then they found out the debt ceiling was the issue. they found out that the government had shut down and that there was no remedy in sight. so it really completely transformed the meeting in the last few days. >> help me understand from your point of view, managing director of the imf, international monetary fund, where you're providing aid to countries at risk around the globe, but you're also keeping an eye on the u.s. economy, the global economy. obviously there is a credibility issue for the united states here, but help me understand the

actual economic shock that would result from us not raising this debt ceiling and being in a position where america can't pay all its bills on time? >> do you remember 2008, the beginning of the great recession? >> yes. >> well, if there was a combination of the government shutdown for a period of time and, more seriously, more damaging if the debt ceiling was not lifted with a degree of certainty and enough time so that people could sort of have the assurance that the economy was in good standing, that would bring about so much uncertainty, so much risk of disruption that the standing of the u.s. economy would, again, be at risk. that some of the obligations that the first economy in the world has would not be respected.

and i think, you know, there was a lot of discussion amongst the finance ministers from all over the world about the technical aspects of it. and you can argue forever as to whether the impact is going to be 2.5%, 3%, 5%, how much public spending will have to be cut, how many more people will have to be unemployed. but one thing is certain around the table, it was that if there is that degree of disruption, that lack of certainty, that lack of trust in the u.s. signature, it would mean massive disruption the world over and we would be at risk of tipping would be at risk of tipping

yet again into recession. that was that tip at the big table. >> in 2008, the great recession, as it's called, this would mean another recession from your point of view? >> if it wasn't resolved, yes, that's what the risk is. >> you know, there are some figures in our government and congress, senator rand paul, others who say, you know, this is overstated. the treasury can do things that the concept of default is hyperbole. >> but creative accounting is not the solution. and markets know that. the counterparts to the united states know that. and when you are the largest economy in the world, when you are the safe heaven in all circumstances, as has been the case, you can't go into that creating accounting business. you have to honor your signature, you have to give certainty to the rest of the world, and you have to make sure that your own economy is consolidating that welcome recovery that we have seen in the last few days because it impacts the entire economy. >> the result of this budget fight and previous fights has been part of a global debate

about whether governments need to cut spending, deal with their entitlement state. you know the american budget is overrun with mandatory spending on entitlement programs like medicare and social security. is austerity the answer? are spending cuts that you hear american conservatives say are so necessary, is that the answer for our economy? or is europe teaching us that that's the wrong answer during a period of slow growth? >> you know, when we look at the u.s. economy we say something which is bizarre. we say hurry up but slow down. hurry up because measures have to be taken now to deal with entitlement, as you suggested. because there is a lot of entitlement coming up, and big liabilities coming up as well in terms of interest payment. but we say slow down because the point is not to contract the economy by slashing spending brutally now as recovery is picking up.

so the pace of consolidation has to be sensible in order to protect that growth which is generating job and which is helping in all sorts of ways. but hurry up to deal with entitlement that will come up and haunt you in a few years' time. it's a balanced approach. >> quickly, if we get past this crisis, if the debt ceiling is raised, if the government is reopened, what's your general view of how things are going economically in the united states, and where do you see it going? >> we see real improvement in the economy. when you look at the housing sector, when you look at the automotive industry, when you look at the deleveraging that has taken place in banks, in corporate, in households, it's a much healthier economy than it was, obviously, back in 2008-2009. a lot of work has been done and the economy is -- i'm almost about to say was, but i hope is

really on its way to recovery. >> sustained recovery? >> everybody wishes that it is sustained recovery. and if it is healthy because it deals with this hurry up but slow down in terms of fiscal consolidation, if it continues to develop up the confidence and trust that engages enterprises to invest, yes. >> janet yellin, as you know, has been nominated for the federal reserve, and it got me thinking about a historic moment for a woman at the federal reserve and the powerful example that you are as a lawyer and as managing director of the imf. both of you now very powerful women in institutions dominated by men. how do you hope to be a role model to women, both of you? how can you both be role models to younger women, particularly? >> what i can tell you for

myself, but i think i can even talk for janet on that one, is it doesn't go to our head. we don't take it seriously. we do our job. we try to do the best we can, and if we can inspire young women, if we can give the message that, yes, girls can do it, that's brilliant. because yes, they can do it. >> cheryl sandburg, as you know, writes about the concept of leaning in, not taking yourself out of the game before you get to a powerful position as a woman. you wrote the forward for the french version. and you wrote something that struck me, that you want this book to be part of a much wider conversation about how to break down the larger external barriers that women face in business and leadership and society more generally. how do you break those barriers down, from your point of view? >> you have to be competent. you have to work hard, you have to study, you have to be engaged in what you do. and the barriers that you find on the way? try to rally support of men and

women around you, men and women, to break those barriers. and third, don't take yourself too seriously. try to bring a bit of humor in the equation. it helps. >> as you have said on more than one occasion, smile and grit your teeth a lot. >> yes. >> sometimes you have to, right? >> i've done quite a bit of that. >> merci beau coup. coming up, how failure to reach an agreement could impact the markets. a new poll out this week of some jaw-dropping numbers. has the american people agreement in washington finally reached bottom? kathleen parker, judi woodruff, harold ford, jr. and our own chuck todd. back in a moment. judi woodruff

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"meet the press" is back with our political roundtable. here this morning, harold ford, kathleen parker, judy woodruff and chuck todd. now, david gregory. >> i want to check in with andrew ross sorkin, because we've been talking about the impact on the markets. so far the markets have been okay, but you listen to christine lagarde and get closer to thursday with the default, that could change, correct? >> absolutely. we haven't cratered yet. it hasn't been too bad.

wall street considers this all bad theater at the moment, expecting some sort of rationality at the end of all this. tomorrow is columbus day. the stock market is open. i imagine it might be down a bit, but the day to watch is going to be tuesday. that's when the bond market reopens and that's when people are going to be really focused on treasuries and you're going to start seeing banks and other institutional investors who haven't positioned themselves for this on expectations we would get a deal start to say, maybe there's more to this and maybe we actually have to get ready, and if that's the case, i think we could be in for a bit of a ride. >> people may also not understand how much money it costs the government to be shut down. we talked about that on twitter in our interview on friday. you made the point, $1.6 billion last week according to an analyst from ihs. >> each day in terms of economic

output in this country is $160 million. there are huge stakes here. if we get past the debt ceiling without a deal, even if we increase the interest rate on treasuries by one point, that's $120 billion annually. so huge costs to the real economy. there is going to be a cloud, an overhang either way, because whatever deal we get sounds like it's going to be a short-term deal. through the holidays people are going to continue to be nervous. it's going to impact investment. i can't tell you that this ends badly, but i can't tell you that it ends well. >> all right. andrew ross sorkin, i know you'll be watching. thank you for taking the time. >> thank you. >> as we look at the impact of this at the end of the week, here a poll about reelection. here's the question. would you vote to replace every member of congress if you could? 60% in our poll, 60%, said yes. chuck, you talked about it as a political depression. that is the question for all of you.

are we in a political depression? >> well, when eight in ten americans say the country is headed in the wrong direction and we're not in an economic downturn -- we're not in an economic downturn. it is a fragile economic recovery, but we're in recovery. it's clear we're in recovery. there is a little bit of optimism. so when you have eight in ten americans saying we're headed in the wrong direction, what is it? the only other time we were this bad in our poll was during the great recession and right after lehman brothers. there is no other way to explain it, and i think the country is totally now fed up with this broken political system. and, you know, yes, right now democrats are quote, unquote, benefitting because the republicans are taking the beating. but this is the crisis in confidence with the government and the political system. this is the hangover.

>> judy woodruff, you covered these issues over time, but back in 1996 they were talking about the need to deal with medicare. it's washington's inability to get to pass this fundamental belief that you're 100% wrong and i'm 100% right. >> that's right, david. i didn't cover the great depression, but when you think about it, this is as bad as it gets. if you go back to the 1930s before fdr and what the similarities are is back then it was the rich and the poor who were hurt by what was going on. today it is, as chuck just said, it's democrats and republicans. yes, republicans are hurt in the short run because people don't like that they think they're mainly responsible for the shutdown. but in the long term when people lose confidence in government and they think washington is dysfunctional, democrats believe government should be there to help solve our problems. so if the public no longer believes, has any faith in

government, that hurts the democrats, too. >> kathleen? >> i'm actually surprised it's not more than 60%. >> that is high, though. we'll get there. >> it is a high, but even on the hill, republicans and democrats are equally frustrated and equally disgusted with not only one another -- not the opposite party, necessarily, but even among themselves. and one of the strangest things, as we watch all of this, is it seems to me that the two protagonists, speaker boehner and the president, are essentially driven by the other parties. it's funny that they each know what the other needs. but the president has been driven primarily by senator reid, and for poor john boehner, i always precede his name with poor -- poor john boehner has this tea party resurrection. there is almost no one that can take control of what's come apart and almost everybody wants to.

>> i raised this before and i raise it a second time because, as chuck said, the republicans have taken such a beating on this, harold. but the president knew this was coming as well and didn't have to face reelection again. is there a certain aspect of this where he says, look, not only am i going to protect a future president from having to deal with these kinds of demands, but i can also deal with republicans if they want to shut down obama care and don't have support. >> you asked, would each of you be willing to blame the other 100%, and it was interesting their answer. there are two issues. whether or not we raise a debt ceiling. you have a proposal to raise it for six weeks, a proposal to raise it to the end of january, and you have a third one where it takes it to the end of the year. second, you have a group that wants to push it out to the end of january and another group wants to push it out for a few months later.

when we look back we're going to wonder how on earth could the president and others not come to some agreement when you have plausible, attainable kind of goals in front of us. two, the economy is ready to take off. you saw last week the market exploded. the biggest single gain the day of the year once it looked like a deal was within reach. last week reports demonstrated that america is now the number one producer in the world, about to take russia in natural gas and petroleum products, which means higher paying jobs. americans want to work. they want to get beyond this moment. it seems for those who are outside of this, and i'm not as close to washington as i was before, a deal is within reach. to kathleen's point, it appears there are forces. tea party on one side, perhaps progressive liberals on the other, that are stopping us from each side taking a small step and conceding a little bit. boehner conceding on spending and president obama conceding with democrats around whether it's obama care or spending cuts.

>> to your point, the fact is there were several proposals made that were completely within reasonable bounds by anyone's measure, including senator susan collins' proposal. >> to me none of these are reasonable to me right now because we're talking about six weeks, six months, eight weeks, maybe three months. you go to the cost of the shutdown. the cost of doing this six weeks at a time, even six months at a time, the cost of not having a budget that we haven't had in i don't know how long, an actual budget, the cost of doing that for the federal government is also costing us money. that's where it's sort of, to me, the most frustrating part is that they're fighting over a six-week deal. >> we need something to get be beyond this moment. >> you talk to the white house and they make it clear the president is not going to bend on the debt limit. he does not want to go with a short-term agreement on the debt limit because you turn around and it's december or january and you do it again.

but they say if you can remove the threat of a debt limit, the president is ready to talk about spending, about appropriations, about the sequester, those automatic across-the-board cuts, so they're saying that ability is there but republicans have got to get over -- >> what is the -- here i asked the senators, so if you do get a deal by thursday, what will they have overcome, chuck? part of it is how much do you spend for the next fiscal year? but obama care seems to be off the discussion. >> listen to rob portman. his two demands now were -- >> but he's not a house republican. >> -- no, and the demands on health care now are very, very tiny. the problem for republicans would be the deal that john boehner and mitch mcconnell would take they can't sell. john boehner is a guy that wants to do something about medicare and social security.

the problem is, that does not sell with the tea party. the tea party caucus does not want this. they do not believe a big entitlement deal is really something to tout, certainly not something to take home to voters. >> john boehner could win an increase in the debt ceiling as well as a reopening of the government if he chooses to reopen the hassett rule. if we get to tuesday and wednesday and he does not have a majority of republicans, all the democrats could bring maybe -- >> talks broke down last night between mcconnell and reid. the senate republicans thought they had a deal friday night. everybody thought yesterday it was all going to happen, and then reid backed off. part of that is the white house. they didn't like the sequester issues and these numbers that were rallying around collins. i think on wednesday boehner just takes the senate bill that's sitting there -- don't forget, at any point in time, he can just throw that out there, throw it in, put it out as one bill and then we sort of punt for six weeks. >> kathleen sebelius has been sort of the debating point of this, and we talked about her,

she's the director of health and human services. she runs the health care plan. she runs obama care. >> she thinks she runs health and security. >> it's part of the security verification. >> she was on jon stewart this week and it didn't go well. watch this. >> we're going to do a challenge. i'm going to try and download every movie ever made, and you're going to try to sign up for obama care and we'll see which happens first. >> funny line. unfortunately, a lot of truth. she struggled to answer why you would give a business a year delay but not an individual who has to, you know, adhere to the individual mandate. >> well, they don't want to give the correct answer, which is that obama care falls apart without the individual mandate. i mean, we need the young people to pay -- >> the unhealthy people. >> right, the unhealthier folks.

as a fellow kathleen, i think we could cut her a little bit of slack. she was not effective. she should have been far better prepared with her answers. there is no good answer to the individual mandate. there is also no good answer as to why this disastrous rollout. these people had plenty of time to get it together on the one hand, but they also had plenty of time to get their answers straight so when asked they could say not it's getting better, every day it's getting better. it just shouldn't have happened this way. >> let me take a break and we'll have more on this from the others with our roundtable, after this. customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online

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final moments here with all of you. the unusual effects of the shutdown. so because of the shutdown, there is no administrative personnel to manage quota allocations so that fishermen can go out and fish or crab, and that is why you have keith colburn from "the deadliest catch" on television testifying on capitol hill this week. watch. >> at some point you're going to run out of band-aids, and at some point you're going to need a tourniquet. i'm here on behalf of fishermen. i'm here for crabbers, but i'm here for fishermen. i'm here for our markets to be solid, for our economy to be good, for people to be able to buy my crab. >> the guy just wants to go fishing. he was the most eloquent on capitol hill saying, do your jobs. i got to go fishing, i got to make a living. >> and there are serious and not so serious repercussions from this data, but the fact is, and most of the country isn't feeling it.

your nbc poll this week showed that. but there are serious effects, too. nih, we know people are not being accepted for medical clinical trials. what is it the white house said yesterday, out of five scientists in the government who are the winners of nobel prizes, four of them are furloughed, which is just a symbolic way of saying research has been shut down. the centers for disease control, food inspections are cut down, the salmonella outbreak on the west coast. no work has been done on that. >> i think as historians look back 20 to 30 years from now, this moment will rank like 2008 that shows a lack of confidence, a dearth of confidence. it may be harder to recover from than we think, and i hope it doesn't keep people from running for office, because it's clear that that's what we need most.

>> we'll be back with an exclusive preview of new findings that will make you rethink the state of partisan politics today when we come back. need most. >> we'll be back with an exclusive preview of new i know what you're thinking... transit fares! as in the 37 billion transit fares we help collect each year. no? oh, right. you're thinking of the 1.6 million daily customer care interactions xerox handles. or the 900 million health insurance claims we process. so, it's no surprise to you that companies depend on today's xerox for services that simplify how work gets done. which is...pretty much what we've always stood for. with xerox, you're ready for real business. which is...pretty much ♪ shimmy, shimmy chocolate . ♪ shimmy, shimmy chocolate ♪ we, we chocolate cross over ♪ yeah, we chocolate cross over ♪ [ male announcer ] fiber one 80 calorie chocolate cereal.

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we're back once again with chuck todd for his first read sunday, a look ahead on politics and first the new jersey senate race. >> if it's tuesday, somebody

will be voting somewhere this tuesday. harry reid will get one democratic senator. we know cory booker is going to win. he sort of limped along, steve lonegan. he even had sarah palin campaigning with him yesterday. swing votes in new jersey. cory booker is going to be an impatient man when he's in the u.s. senate. this is not somebody who will enjoy being in the back bench. it's going to be interesting to watch. >> what else? >> move on. i want to show you speaking of rabble rousers in the senate. ted cruz. the republican party really is divided in two camps. half identifies with the tea party, half identifies with the non-tea party, and you see here the split. ted cruz, enormously popular with the tea party. but look at this, he has a net negative rating with non-tea party republicans. and this is the divide we're seeing play out right now.

>> what about chris christie who said he would kill himself if he had to be in the senate right now. totally different approach. >> different approach, but ted cruz has not been hurt with his base. and on tuesday we're unveiling an nbc esquire study. esquire came to us because they said how big is the political center? we did an interesting survey with the obama and romney pollsters. the left wing and the right wing combined are a minority. they do identify with one party over another but not comfortably. they like the government safety net, they're social libertarians, they're not really church-going people, but more interesting you need to know what they're doing later today, if they're not watching the show today, they're drinking beer and watching football. but it is a very interesting study.

we'll have a lot of details on tuesday and people can go on the web and find where they fall. >> people have to wonder if it's 51% -- >> this congress does not represent a majority of the country. that's what the study is going to tell us. >> chuck, thank you very much. back here in just a moment. nobody insures more bikes than progressive. do you guys ride? well... no. sometimes, yeah. yes. well, if you know anybody else who also rides, send them here -- we got great coverage. it's not like bikers love their bikes

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>> that last image is of the new $100 bill that was rolled out this week despite the government shutdown. interesting fact, the last redesign happened in 1996, the same year as the last government shutdown 17 years ago. so around the horn here. deal by thursday? >> yeah, i think by wednesday. they have to. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes, but after that it's really hard for something long term. >> the question is does boehner remain speaker after that. >> all right. to be continued. thank you all very much. appreciate it. that's all for today. we'll be back next week. if it's sunday it's "meet the press." week. if it's sunday it's "meet the press."

this is not a moment to take shots at each other. >> there are no winners and lose ers. it's about doing what's right. >> the senate is in session. upper chamber now taking a lead on talks to he said t s tto end government shut gown oig. some lawmakers say a deal is unlikely. others expect one in just days. >> i think things are not moving now. the last 24 hours have not been good. >> do they want compromise or surrender? >> i don't know what they want. >> i do believe we'll see a resolution this week. >> i'm