jealousy, others out of disagreement. it didn't matter. stand up and be the person and represent the beliefs that you really, really, firmly hold passionate. that will define you. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. doomsday? let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. >> we are now ruled, quote, unquote, by a president -- imperialistic president -- who bows down to allah. >> except that the rest of the country knows they're going off an economic cliff.

the trick is finding a deal that -- while tagging it enough to satisfy the blood lust of the republican right in the u.s. house of representatives. figuring out the first is fairly easily, the president is not going to pay the kidnappers who hurt his baby obama care. right now republicans in the house are a fractured mess. the government has been shut for 14 days. we're three days from a default which is why continue the action is starting between harry reid and mitch mcconnell. they're the ones now trying to assemble an 11th hour deal that will get through the republican house. according to nbc news, this is the deal in the works. it would reopen the government through january 15 at current funding levels. extend the debt limit through february 7th. as for the president's health care law, there would be a provision to establish need when it comes to affordable care act

aub si i d subsidies. but a small source of funding for the law called the medical device tax has been taken off the table. late today the white house postponed a meeting with congressional leaders of both parties so negotiations had more time to play out. it remains highly uncertain right now whether the deal as currently structured will be able to pass the republican-controlled house. all this while the far right is ramping up its effort to delegitimize president obama calling him a muslim who needs to come out of the white house with his hands up. howard fineman and david corn, both msnbc political analysts. howard, it's so interesting as they're working their way -- the people have become serious about this, wackos on the hard right will going to he's praying in allah, he's one of them. >> they're being painted into a corner legislatively. there's a sense of quiet

satisfaction if not excitement that the members of the senate, that the leaders of the senate are finally talking and that they are putting together db they're the leaders putting together the deal. what they are trying to do is come to a deal themselves and then figure out how to give just enough to john boehner that he will call a vote that will get enough republican support and perhaps a good bit of democratic support to pass. so all the action on the hill is from outside that core of rejectionists in. that's the dynamic. >> i think that's well said. it's like solving a simultaneous equation in high school. we have to get agreement from senate democrats, senate republicans, house democrats and these far out republican house members that we don't know how far right they go and how powerful the hard right, the crazy right wacko birds are. >> we may not have to give anything or much to those far right wacko birds if john boehner puts it to the floor.

where you get some reasonable -- >> when's he done that ever in his life? >> he's done it three, four times when he's gotten to crunch points. right now they're jamming boehner. we want to deal -- >> what's in this deal for him? there's no medical device thing in there. there's something about means testing but they already did that. >> double secret means testing. >>nothing in the deal for john boehner except you don't get blamed for default. this is an escape -- >> what would you he to say to his caucus when they need with no pretss in there. >> you took a shot at it. you don't get to bring the government to a stand still. we will have other votes on obama care. we will have legislative hearings -- >> you think -- this is so hot, in the next two days does he have the stuff in him to face down the real hard right and say you're wrong or you tried, nice

try, but i'm the boss. >> what they're trying to do with john boehner is build a structure around so he has no choice but to be brave, if you will. they're trying to make it so that he's the only person who can solve the problem in the end. by the way, what the negotiators are also doing is holding back one little piece here that we don't know about. and maybe putting the medical device thing back in. one thing at the end here they can throw to get a few more house republicans that can seem like a concession. because a lot of this is psychological now with the house republicans. they need to feel like they won something. >> hold those thoughts. but as for the timetable, a friend of mine i've known for 40-some years now told me he's afraid of we're still screwing around in this country come wednesday, we could have a couple thousand point drop in the dow. this is serious business. >> but the issue is how close we are. we've seen in years past there's a way to signal and i hate using

this term to the markets that will have everything done by midnight tonight. >> thursday midnight? >> wednesday midnight. and the markets have been i think overly forgiving -- >> because? what's their implication? are they assuming it will get done? >> they assume at the end of the day that john boehner will be somewhat reasonable and if he has to tell these other guys to take a hike, they will do that. >> where do they get the street smarts? it's not street it's capitol hill. >> it's not rational. that doesn't mean people will do it. >> in terms of timing, the first hurdle for the senate leaders is that they need to get a deal and get it on the floor in time so that even if one of the tea party people on the senate side like ted cruz, for example, objects -- >> how long could he slow it down? >> he could slow it down for 30 hours. so they want to try to get it out there tomorrow for a vote if

they can or by tomorrow night at the latest. sop that that time runs. and then the thing that -- >> you heard what he said. >> the thing that the senate republicans get out of this, the president gets no monkeying around with obama care basically. and obama care is not tied to either the continuing resolution or the debt ceiling. that's what the president wants. that's what he's getting. that's the big loss for the republicans here. the senate republicans get a sort of short-term continuing resolution because it only goes to january and a debt ceiling only to february. and they get to not be blamed. and there's going to be budget talks. there will be a committee that talks about stuff. and what the house republicans get is nothing. >> nothing. >> that is a problem in the dynamics. >> let me step back for the weekly column thought here. is this a case where the public -- and i'm in the public looking at this, saying this big

crap pile has been entirely made by them? >> yes. it's essentially happened. >> but also for no good end. three months from now we have to do it again. i think the republicans are going to be in a weaker position three months from now after what they've gone through. none of this is settled for the long run. not the government shutdown, not the debt. >> but there will be some kind of nod in the direction of a budget group that will try to hash out a budget -- >> which we haven't been able to do in the past years. >> why they'd be able to do it now between now and december 15th, i don't know. >> i'll play dumb a little bit, but i am dumb about this one question. obama, you know, we all know that he's not a lefty when it comes to fiscal policy. he may be anti-war, but when it comes to numbers and arithmetic, he has said i could look at corporate tax reform.

that could mean a higher level of taxes. proving to make business more competitive which everybody talked about. and then the second thing we all know these entitlement programs are going to explode at some point. they don't have the funding. something has to be done. why doesn't he do that? >> but he has. he has offered -- >> he's offered, but why hasn't he done it? >> he's offered chain cpi -- >> why doesn't he do it? >> because he wants to be part of a deal to get something out of the republicans. he is far closer and would sign simpson bowles in a minute -- >> the chicken and egg problem. >> the problem is that republican political orthodox now boils down to three or four words. no new taxes. that is their mantra. they've got the score cards that norquist has that scares everybody. that is their essential point. they will not enter a budget negotiation that has the possibility to -- >> so that's the straight jacket

we're in? >> straight jacket they're in. because even if you have the deal leading to budget talks, we have budget talks that biden led before the 2011 deal. and at the same time the same issues came up again and again. >> what do you think is going to happen? we have until wednesday night as the deadline. >> i think it's going to -- i think they'll get it done, but i think it will slop over into thursday and friday and jack lew the secretary of treasury has enough tricks and enough fine print that he can read. >> so we'll be cutting checks again. >> yes. the rainy day fund. >> he'll discover some way to make it go. >> this sloppy is a good word. america shouldn't be sloppy. and the world is watching this. the word is out that we've not got our act together. even if we make this deadline in a sloppy way or crawl over the finish line, this is going to hurt us. >> about 80% to 90% of the

political players in this town on both sides of the aisle don't like this. don't want to see this happen. agrees it makes us look foolish here. it costs ut billions of dollar to shut down the government and play with credit ratings. it's because of these 40 or 50 people who have jane boehner by the tail that we go through this. >> it's also -- yeah. it's that, but it's also the fact that everything here has turned into a game of political score keeping. and the white house is not unaware, for sure, and it's not displeased. as a matter of fact, is pleased about the fact that one of the things that's happened in this situation is that the republican party's numbers have been driven into the ground. they take some solace in that. they take some satisfaction in that. too many people on both sides are keeping score in terms of poll numbers and not in terms of reality. the very simple actual reality

we've got to look at. >> when hostage takers go down in the poll, that's a good thing. i think obama's serious. i'm not saying it's a good thing on the progressives side. he's serious about getting a grand bargain. >> clearly the big obvious tactical mistake on the part of republicans was to attach their demands to obama care. that was just an unrealistic and counterproductive thing to do. >> you know growing up watching what happened in greece with what happened, they just gave up on the parliamentary not getting anything done. we're getting that whiff of that here. >> got to be careful to point out who's mostly to blame. a lot of people just say washington dysfunction. i'm not saying you. but that's how it gets filtered out to people. this is what republicans and conservatives like in a lot of ways. they like to see washington and government discredited. >> they wanted it discredited is what they should have done is

left obama care alone. everybody would have been focused on the failure. >> that would have taken brains. the guys on wall street have those little books, they don't have those books. what a lively discussion about impending doom. coming up, another incredible display of hatred by right wing extremists this weekend. by the group of freedom watch says president obama, quote, bows down to allah and needs to come out of the white house like a criminal. if they can't take away this president's signature achievement, they're trying to delegitimatize his entire president. ted cruz may be the one lighting the match that lit this fire. but he's exposed a bigger rift inside the republican party. plus big business helped create this pea party but now they don't have enough power to stop it. and let me finish with the

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so which potential republican candidate does the conservative values voter like? well, ted cruz. the texas senator won the values voter straw poll by a wide margin. cruz got 42% of the vote. ahead of ben carson and rick santorum who tied for second. as we showed you last week, cruz's unfavorables across the country have doubled as people get to know him. this guy ain't going anywhere. we'll be right back. fidelity is there for your personal economy, helping you readjust your retirement plan along the way, rethink how you're invested, and refocus as your career moves forward. wherever you are today, a fidelity i.r.a. has a wide range of investment choices to help you fine-tune your personal economy. call today, and we'll make it easy

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our vets have proven that they have not been timid, so we will not be timid in calling out any who would use our military, our vets as pawns in a political game. >> why is the federal government

spending money to erect barricades to keep veterans out of this memorial? >> nonsense. anyway, welcome back to "hardball." it's hard to know where to begin when sarah palin and ted cruz headline an event to protest the closing of the world war ii memorials when it's republican extremism that caused the closures in the first place. but cruz and palin didn't mind that. they seemed tame compared to larry klayman who spoke a half hour later. >> our country has fallen, declined faster than it took rome 2,000 years to do. and we are now ruled, quote, unquote, by a president who bows down to allah. this president is not a president of we the people. he's a president of his people. i call upon all of you to wage a

second american non-violent revolution. to demand that this president leave town, to get out, to put the koran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come up with his hands out. >> sometimes i want to take one of these guys and give them sodium penothal. we event was complete with the bright yellow flag. don't tread on me. i like that message. here's the bad one. the impeach obama signs were dusted off and waved around. but this picture of a protester waving a confederate flag in front of the white house struck a nerve with me and others. jonathan capehart sits here. he described it this way. if you want to curdle the blood of an african-american and send a message of menace without

resorting to burning a cross on the lawn, wave the flag. so imagine my revulsion when this was outside of the front gates of the white house. jonathan capehart with sam stein. you know, there's a piece of this thing from the beginning, this hatred of obama. it's not specifically racial. it's regional, historic. you hear people refer to the cause. remember that what is. the people that are the die harders of the civil war. never got past it. i was up at the mansion here to see teddy kennedy's burial spot. there was a guy saying let's keep up the fight. i know what he was talking about. as my wife said, kathy said he wasn't visiting ted kennedy's burial. he was visiting robert e. lee's house. but there was some of that residue of we got screwed in the war. we didn't have enough guns and railroad cars or whatever. and we're coming back to fight the big night now. >> how horrible is it that here we are a few -- couple hundred

years after that war, a war that tore the country apart, and you still have people who are flying that flag. i say at the end of that piece, to me that flag is no better than a swastika. it should have no place in american political discourse. yeah, it curdles the blood -- >> what do you think that guy was thinking out there? >> well, the other flag on the left is the marine corps flag. >> he identifies the two of them together, this character. >> someone on my facebook page said i wonder if that guy if the picture realizes that the folks who are represented by the flag in his right hand, you know, beat the butts of the people who represented the flag in his left hand. you know, that flag is so -- i mean, i'm glad i was able to write this because i can't even talk about just how offensive that flag is. >> sam stein, you know we lost 600,000 people in that civil war. most of them were christians. they believed in the same god,

they came from the same country. they killed each other. 600,000 people at point blank range across open fields. for what they believed in which was the fight about regional power and slavery. why do these people want to stir back toward that? why do they want to recreate that emotion that led us to the civil war? why do they want it again? >> i have no idea. i would guess something to do with states rights as if it were pertinent to this debate. i don't want to overlook what larry klayman said. what he said was also very offensive. the idea -- and i'm stealing from colin powell here. but the idea that this president is muslim that that's something wrong. he's not, but the idea that would be an insult and disqualifier and offensive is bizarre. there are plenty of moderate american muslims in this country. why that should be an insult to someone for someone who worships by the koran is bizarre. that's equally offensive to the

muslim population in this country. i don't think we should brush it to the side. >> why do you think they call him a muslim when he cedes he was raised christian. he took a lot of heat for going to one particular christian church. >> because it presents him as someone who is somehow un-american and exotic in some respects. i have no idea. but it's obviously hurtful and the fact that the speaker at the rally, not someone just attending, but a speaker at the rally did that should trouble a lot of people. >> i think they're trying to delegitimatize presidency. get rid of his accomplishment on health care which every democrat and a lot of republicans going back to the beginning of the 20th century believed in, fought were for and failed. but he did it. get rid of that and you have begun to erase his record. they want to put an asterisk next to his name like he wasn't really president. >> what they're doing is -- there's a lot of fear. that flag represents fear. >> of the health care bill? >> no, no, no.

not of the health care brill, bt of this president and what they view him representing. the country as a lot of these countries view it is changing. remember the mantra in 2009/2010 was we want our country back. back from whom? and we want the country to follow the constitution again. well, where's your proof that the president's not following the constitution? and then the impeachment signs which we've seen since the first term and saw them out there on sunday, impeach him for what? you can't really explain -- they can't tell you for what. and if they do start -- >> let's get totally -- think totally tribally here. the black population of the united states is about what it's been since we were kids. that doesn't change. the hispanic population is growing through immigration. but it's not going to change. there's always going to be a lot of white people around if you

want the company. what are they actually afraid of? there's vast stretches of this country that are all white. what is their worry? >> it's the fear of change. it's the fear of a country, a vision of a country that they have this american dream for who a lot of people didn't really exist. but for them the mythology of america to them is changing. and the idea that there's an african-american family in the white house and a black man in the oval office is a little too much change for some people. >> i'm a nut about movies, but a lot of our culture came from immigrants. basic culture movies and novels all written by people who arrived here in the 20th century. now to say we don't like our culture is what came to be our culture and what is america. right? who produced gone with the wind? where'd all that stuff come from? it came from immigrants. that's just the truth. >> these are conversations and

debates that extend well back in our history over whether we're a melting pot and to what extent we want to assimilate people and have them be part of society. i will say this. i don't like the idea that we will, you know, tar a broad brush of people by the signs a few people brought. howevering with this is continuing pattern at some of these rallies. and more importantly to me that the politicians who were brought there who spoke at the rally didn't say anything about the signs that were put up, didn't say anything about the flag flown. they had every opportunity to. >> take a moment. rational question. i want a rational answer to this. why was it only john mccain who ever spoke up? i think there's a rational political reason for it. why they don't speak up against this fringe. my answer, they want that 5% or 10% to add to their numbers. your thoughts. >> i agree 100%. >> okay. thank you, jonathan capehart. this is up against a doomsday device called the debt ceiling

we're about to perhaps pass and blow things up economically and cultural we're seeing a wildfire. thank you. up next, highlights from my appearance on the realtime with bill maher. they say things there we can't say here. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online but they didn't fit. customer's not happy, i'm not happy. sales go down, i'm not happy. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy.

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back to "hardball." time for the sideshow. the movie "gravity" is soaring at the box office. but here on earth many nasa programs are on hold thank bs to the government shutdown. here's how the folks at "saturday night live" dealt with that over the weekend. >> just pass me that wrench. what was that? >> i think some debris hit the telescope. >> oh, my god. we're detached. what do we do? >> stay calm. stay calm. houston, houston, this is explorer. we've been hit by debris and

need immediate assistance. houston, do you read? >> houston, come in houston. >> houston, come in. we're flying blind, houston. houston, we need you desperately. please. somebody. >> hello? >> this is dr. janet stone. we've become detached from the hubble telescope. >> this is awkward, but the government has shut down. >> anyway, the space buffs may be interested to know that today marks the 45th anniversary of the very first live television transmission from a manned spacecraft. it was apollo 7. it was a test mission in '68. next up, i was on "realtime with bill maher" and i pushed back at the notion that the debt ceiling debate is politics as usual. it's not. and take a look.

>> first we have the gun to our head because of obama care. they gave up on that, white house the gun to our head still? >> because it is -- >> now it's like we have the gun to our head, we have to figure out why. hold on, keep your head there. >> because it's a great american transition to -- for congress to put the gun to an opposing president. >> when president reagan was elected by a landslide, tip o'neill says there's something called a honey moon. you get a shot. i don't like anything you're going but you get your votes. they said would you democrats vote for the debt ceiling? he said all i want is a letter to each of the democrats from ronald reagan saying vote for the debt ceiling and you'll have the votes. that's what happened. he didn't screw around with it. he moved on. >> wow. we should move on again. the lesson, choose your battles wisely. up next, carnival cruiz may

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i'm milissa rehberger. an al qaeda operative captured this month will face charges for bombings in 1998. police in london arrested a man who tried to dart through the gates of buckingham palace with a knife. a florida woman was rescued after she was found dringing to a bridge in the air. apparently she could face tris passing charges. now back to "hardball." ♪

i respect senator cruz. he didn't make any bones about what he was going to do when he came to washington. the question is, is should we follow that leadership or should we go in other directions and coalesce the majority of the american people? look, i guess we can get lower in the polls. we're down to blood relatives and paid staffers now. >> that's pretty funny. blood relatives and paid staffers, the only people loyal to republicans. back to "hardball." that was senator john mccain giving an honest assessment from him on the party's problems. he has been lambasted by the far right including louie gohmert. >> is some senator from arizona, a guy that liked gaddhafi before he wanted to bomb him, a guy that liked mubarak before he wanted him out, a guy that's

been to syria and supported al qaeda and rebels, but he was saying today the shutdown has been a fool's errand. >> well, john mccain never supported al qaeda. that was the republican congressman louie gohmert calling his fellow senator a supporter of al qaeda. a small amount have tried to hijacked the party and have gotten away with it. but beyond image, the polls show just how shattered the party is. in the latest nbc/wall street journal pole, there's a stark divide between tea partiers and non-tea partiers when it comes to the job the congress is doing. tea partiers support them, the rest doesn't. for whether republicans are showing strong leadership. ted cruz and his pals might like how the last bit has gone, but for those that want to be a

nationally competitive party, they don't like the shutdown. dana milbank and a.b. stoddard. a.b., i thought what was really nuanced was john mccain, the good john mccain. he's back to being the good guy in my perspective. he's talking about this is what ted cruz came here to do. he came to be a bomb thrower, blowing everything up and he's doing it. that's a way to say this guy's a disaster. that's a nice way to put it. >> they will tell you the establishment doesn't fight. they just roll over, they lie to their constituents about what they're going to do. >> you mean obama has had a free ride? >> they think that john boehner and mitch mcconnell are sellouts. they think that they always roll over and that they don't fight. so when you talk about ted cruz, even though they know he never told them you need 2/3 majority

in each chamber to overturn obama care, they just like the fight. then you have the establishment saying this fight is tanking us in the polls if we want the white house back. the most interesting will be when we punt to the next deadline. does the chamber of commerce actually primary people running against tea party candidates? does all the republicans who said this is a bad strategy, do they fight back and actually try to stop this tide of civil war in the party? it's going to be a big question. >> i have an editorial. i will deliver it to you. there comes a time in parties you have to clean house. i think the democrats did it in '48 and under bill buckley, he said enough in this movement. you're gone. it was an important thing they did back in the '50s.

is this a time when they might say lose the confederate flags, lose the islam calling that hooez a muslim, lose all the racism tarring of the guy or else you're not in our party. when is somebody going to say you're not a republican even if you are they are. >> if they're going to stay the republican party, they're going to have to. but the tea party might be this tiny fraction of the electorate, but they're absolutely entrenched right there. >> do republicans need them to win control of the house? >> no, they don't need them for that. >> every one of their districts could be served by a moderate republican. >> they've got to get it so they don't control the primary process anymore. until they get them out of that, they can't. >> same question to you. do they these the crazies? >> until the jim demint heritage action is matched, they're going to continue to win. >> grabbed hold of fwl toomey in

pennsylvania. chris christie showed he has no interest in being lumped in with his fellow republicans up on capitol hill generally. he told the philadelphia inquirer last weekend, quote, if i was in the senate right now i'd kill myself. he explained to what he has said to colleagues in washington. what i said to any of them that i met with, get the government reopened, stop monkeying around and get back to work. i said i'm out there in the field, people have no patience for this stuff. the governors like kasich and scott walker, whatever you think of their policies are competent. those guys can do stuff. >> are they going to fight back after this and say we have to be a party that governs, we can't be a party that shuts things down. this will be the true test. >> but that's what john mccain just said. ted cruz came to washington to shut it down. >> and he did. he saw the way to power in washington for him was to create that. now, the one good thing that could come out of this is they've been spoiling for this fight and now mcconnell and

boehner said you got your fight. it was a disaster. now let's have the grownups take over. and the question is -- >> you've got good sources when you report. will you be able to get into the kau can us? >> mitch mcconnell is doing that right now in cutting a deal with harry reid. when that's gets passed to the house, is john boehner going to say enough, you crazies, you've had your say and it was a disaster. >> so you think the current deal on the table effectively gives the democrats what they want in a short-term basis, but it does require some sort of sophisticated means testing or effective means testing on obama care. is that enough for these people? >> it won't be enough. >> nothing's enough. >> we'll get through the week and you'll hear ted cruz say again -- >> is he going to throw a monkey wrench in? >> they're not going to give up this fight. they believe this is the number one fight. >> a friend of mine knows his finances, we get into kentuc kentucky -- wednesday and start losing big on the stock market.

retirement people, all their money is here. when it starts to shrink for the people who have no more way to make money, what happens? do they still root for that rebel flag? >> what we may be failing to say is say the republican party tanks the economy now. it's a year from now until the midterm election, and if the economy's sour, who do they blame? the president's party. >> you mean like the kid who shoots his parents claims to be an orphan? >> if things are -- >> we got to go. the jokes are awful, but i got to tell you -- >> we're not going to default. >> we won't. right here. >> no, john boehner -- >> anyway, it's called a bad credit rating. thank you. up next, big business helped bank roll the tea party monster, but now that the monster has turned on its creator, what are they going to do about it? we have smart people in business coming up. this is "hardball," the place for politics. prefer the taste of gevalia house blend over the taste of starbucks house blend?

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into the future. ♪ it is insane not to raise the debt ceiling. now, i know there are a lot of people, new people particularly in the house or folks, you know, some of the guys in heritage and other places talking about we should burn the house down so we can build a new one. well, that's just fine if you knew what you were talking about, but you don't. >> wow. that was tom donahue from the u.s. chamber of commerce referring to members of the republican party that are not too smart. when they spent billions to represent the congress and spend more to fund redistricting efforts to keep their majority in safe republican hands, it had no idea it would come to this.

open war with the tea party monster it helped to create. the tea party faction has led to a fiscal stalemate or worse. and a republican party that once shared interest with the republican sector now finds itself split in two. now groups like the u.s. chamber of commerce more campaign dollars this time on mainstream republicans looking to beat back tea party encustom bents who they think are bad for business, because for the country. roger altman is with advisory firm evercore, and was deputy treasury secretary in the clinton administration. steve al mendorf is a strategist of some renowned. thanks for coming on. i've always taken your advice about how things are moving in the economy, what consumers are thinking, how debt affects consumers. how does the possibility of a national default, how will it affect our reality in this country? >> well, it would be catastrophic, which is why i think, at least at the very last moment it won't happen.

business, of course, is horrified, that's really the right word, at that prospect, and horrified that, as you say, a number of members that they supported on the far right are causing this near catastrophe. but if we ever actually went over the edge and we missed a payment, an interest payment or a principal payment, it would have catastrophic consequences. every single american, anybody taking out a mortgage, anybody with a consumer loan, any church borrowing money, any business borrowing money would pay more, a lot more, in interest, the credit rating of the united states, of course, would be lowered, and it would be a very dark day in this country. and it's difficult, for me at least, to believe that the way markets would plunge just before that would allow even the tea party republicans, or at least the republican leadership would allow them to actually

conscience it. i don't think they could. >> it scares me, steve, talking politics now, is now -- and i know this is where you sit is where you stand and where you stand is where you sit, bit nothing bugs me more when i look into the eyes of somebody sitting somewhere on a different show, like bill maher, who i know knows it's destructive if this happens, but the residen republicans are saying what they know isn't true, this won't hurt, prioritizing or fixing or whatever. >> you have republicans that are deniers. a bunch of them actually believe it, that's the scary part. >> they wouldn't believe it if it was a republican president, would they? >> i think so many of them are -- >> if keister was on the line here? >> for a lot of them, i think the hatred of obama clouds everything they think, but a lot of them are just no-nothings. and a lot of people in the business community, as tom donohue said, need to stand up for them. >> is this part of the libertarian creed that nothing matters except your own ego? is this what's going on? rand paul isn't stupid.

he's saying it doesn't matter. where's that coming from? i could see a steve king who doesn't know anything, saying i raised a family, i own a national business, but never mind. i don't get these guys. i think they're irresponsible. roger, talking about the business community and communications, the "wall street journal," which is almost a bible to business, the koch brothers, saying please, don't take us off the cliff. why doesn't the communication get through to the voting members of the house of representatives? >> well, i think as you've been saying on this show earlier tonight, chris, i think this really, so far, has come down to some number, like 40 of house republicans on the far right, the tea party republicans. but if thursday morning is d-day in terms of default, and it looks midday wednesday, wednesday morning. so, this really may happen. there will be such a plunge, i think, in the stock market that it will frighten people on main street in a big way, average

people, people, as you said earlier, with i.r.a.s and so forth. and that fright, i think, will motivate the leadership to break the hasterik rule and pass at least an increase in the budget limit. >> will that be a bungee jump or will we have irreparable harm because for the first time ever, we've defaulted, even for just several hours. i think both parties, especially republicans, are pushing and pushing, how close can we get to the cliff without falling over? but if they fall at all, even for an hour, will it be a bungee jump or death? >> a bungee jump. it will be national gous to the first congressional vote in 2008 on the t.a.r.p. when the vote, which was expected to pass, of course, didn't, the market plunged 800 points, people on main street were terrified by that plunge. 48 hours later, the congress came back in and voted the t.a.r.p. through. it will be like that. >> i think i have a worse -- maybe i'm more worried than you, rog, and you're the expert. you know, steve and roger, i'm

afraid, having lost our perfect safety record, we'll never be the same. thank you, roger altman, steve almendorf. well, there's hannah, maddie, jen, sara m., sara b., sa -- whoa, whoa. hold on. (under his breath) here it comes... we can't forget about your older sister! thank you, thank you, thank you! seriously? what? i get 2x the thankyou points on each ticket. can i come? yep. the citi thankyou preferred card. now earn 2x the points on entertainment and dining out, with no annual fee. to apply, go to citi.com/thankyoucards where their electricity comes from. they flip the switch-- and the light comes on. it's our job to make sure that it does. using natural gas this power plant can produce enough energy for about 600,000 homes. generating electricity that's cleaner and reliable, with fewer emissions-- it matters. ♪

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. let me finish tonight with this. we now wait, sit in wait and check the news for two possibilities, one that, once again, the two parties reach yet another 11th-hour decision that disappoints us with once again an unsatisfactory result, which instead of doing no harm only manages to do less harm. the second possibility is if it

only works. if the house republicans will not or cannot come to an agreement with the democratic-led senate and the democratic president, barack obama, we are in for trouble. it will be a renegade moment in history. suddenly, we would face the reality of a right wing run amuck, a refusal to participate in national self-government out of some angry need to bring the house down and be seen doing so. there was once a way to do things in american politics. it was easy to understand. you fought over policy, you agreed on a compromise in a reasonable time, you signed a bill together, there were smiles all around and the country liked what it saw. now we have a system where you fight even when you have to keep coming up with reasons, new reasons for the fight, where you recklessly miss deadlines, where you keep on fighting, where you may or may not reach a compromise where there is more anger in the country after than before. we don't calm differences these days, we stoke the anger. well, tonight, i'll be on "the rachel maddow show" to talk about my book, "tip and the gipper," which i imagined often in writing it as a warm-hearted look at a good time in american life, but instead now looms as a

real operator's manual on how the government should be run, an optimistic look at how it still could. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. and we have just three days to go until an unprecedented possible u.s. default, and there is some hope at this hour of a deal to reopen the government, raise the debt ceiling and put an end to this ugly, unnecessary crisis. 14 days into a government shutdown, the timeliness to avoid possible economic calamity just three days is truly unforgiven, given the sheer mechanics of getting something passed through both houses of congress even after a deal is finally reached. senate majority leader harry reid and senate minority leader mitch mcconnell spent the day inching closer to a deal after house leaders were unable to arrive at something the