remember, it takes skill to be good, but it takes sacrifice and discipline to be great. everybody that's a good politician does not become recorded in history as great politicians. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. the speaker must decide. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. john boehner, i'm talking to you. i think you need advice from outside that caucus. i'm afraid it's smothering you. it's killing any impulse you have to call the shots and end this government shutdown. worse yet, the approaching

default on the country's debt. this historic embarrassment to your party, to your beloved house of representatives, this deep injury to your country. here i think it's fair to say are your options, mr. speaker. you can continue down the road, that little band of warriors on your party's right has assigned you. that means sticking with them all the way, following whatever course the fartherest out 30 of your caucus want you to take. going after the affordable care act at every stop, giving up on any bipartisan solution to the debt crisis, then doing the whole thing over again every two months from now until the end of your speakership. causing havoc global economic mayhem at maximum. the value of our currency, our word. you want to get down that road, mr. speaker? how about this? how about you restore democracy to the people's house? how about you set a vote to reopen the government and add it to whatever riders you don't

think will bring it down and call the roll. you have reasserted yourself as the leader of the house for as long as you hold the title. what would winston churchill do? what would a gutsy john boehner do? now back to you who are watching this craziness from some distance. the republicans' latest offer would reopen the government but only until december 15th. then would come just before christmas and the holidays another big government shutdown with all the trimmings. just to get that far, the right wing of the republican caucus is filling the president's bags with more lumps of coal. matters so small they don't deserve mention. joining me right now is congresswoman donna edwards of maryland. i want you to try and explain to the people out there who are trying to understand this, what is the republican caucus officially led by john boehner although i don't think he has his heart in it. this attempt you add on more to the load that we have to end up

dumping in two days from now. making it harder and harder through all these new additions to the deal if there is one that there won't be a deal. your thoughts. what are they up to? >> i would love to be able to tell you, but what i think of this, it reminds me about a children's verse. second verse same as the first. they want to attach all this policy stuff to paying our bills and opening our government. these are two basic functions that the congress has. and speaker boehner seems more like a marionette led by the tea partiers than a speaker right now. he needs 31 republicans to join 186 democrats who have already declared on the record we would pass a clean debt ceiling and open up government. he needs to gather those 31, be a speaker of the whole house, and bring this to a close. but to set up what happened last year again this year, to say to the american people i want to

send this economy in the tank. it's irresponsible and reckless. >> is there -- could he -- i proposed he do it. why doesn't he open it up to the house both parties and say i have things to improve obama care. i want this thing to have a shot at surviving. isn't there some middle where he could say i could get a decent number of republicans and get some democrats? or is there no middle road here? i don't understand this myself. >> the problem for him is that he hasn't been able to pose any kind of middle. their option as i've stated, they just want to see the whole thing done with. they want to sink the american economy. they want not to pay our bills because they want to kill health care for the american people. i mean, it really is outrageous. and so i think the better thing for the speaker would be to say we're going to open for a vote any resolution that's put on the floor by a member of congress. and democrats would put a clean debt ceiling on the floor. we put a clean continuing

resolution on the floor and guess what, we fund government and we would pay our bills. >> you say he's a marionette, a puppet of the right wing. how does it work? do they sit in the caucus and 30 of them say no every time he tries something. what do you think happens over there? >> well, it's hard to know. i do think that there's been some threat spoken on the record that perhaps his speakership will be under threat. what kind of speaker are you now if you don't have the ability to do what's right for the american people? and i've met -- >> who has the nerve to vote against him? who has the nerve to run against him? who has the nerve to put in a motion to declare the speakership vacant? these guys are big talkers, but i've seen these so-called rebellions before. it's easy to play fletcher, you have to go face to face. it's tougher to do than to talk. these characters have been on this show and i think they're nuts a lot of them. they think obama is from kenya. they don't have the facts

straight. they make terrible charges. they're not credible people, half of them are birthers. why does he listen to this crowd of crazies? >> i don't know. i would love to be able to explain to you. i just want to appeal to the speaker to have the courage to do what's right. we saw the stock market today go down yet again. it is a signal of what's going to happen in 30 hours if the speaker doesn't get this right. and so i'm just appealing to him. i know that we are democrats. it would be the right thing for the american people to do. there's a lot of tough talk on the other side, but who's going to de-throne him? it's time to do the right thing. >> i'm not a financial expert. i think i'm better than stephen king and some of that crowd in the caucus there. but i got the word fitch is looking about a possible degrading. this is on the edge of craziness. if they're doing this over

the -- i can't use the word i would use. this mickey mouse stuff they're attaching tonight, my hope is when that passes, my danger is that that's going to be their last word and we're in trouble for thursday night. thank you, u.s. congresswoman. governor ed rendell. i think it's always going to haunt us that they went down over such crap, such nonsense. i can't use the word that we know fits the mold. this is so dispropors gnat. something to do with the rights of the treasury down the road to prioritize. is that a reason to bring down the curtain on the american economic condition? >> no.

it's also insane. i think with redistricting the republicans as low as they've sunk have a chance to survive and control the house now. but if there is a default, they're done. they're absolutely done. and by the way, it's not just john boehner that has to step up. my suggestion would be and i'm going to get on the horn calling people. my suggestion would be pass the senate bill. and the senate bill, by the way, does make some modifications to obama care. it tightens the requirements for subsidies, gets rid of the fee on employers. it makes some changes. send it over. then it's time -- forget john boehner. we do a discharge petition. it's time for charlie dent and patrick meehan and fitzpatrick and gurlach and runyon and all these so-called moderates to stand up. will they sign a discharge petition to force a vote to pass it? that's the time. it's not just time for john boehner to stand up. these guys have had it very good, chris.

they've written letters saying we're for a clean bill. but they haven't shown their willingness to sign a discharge petition or join the letter that congresswoman edwards was talking about. >> do they know it's summertime in 1964 and they're in san francisco in the cow palace right now nominating gold water. that they're with the crazies booing rockefeller and scranton. they've joined that party all the way out there. do they know that? they're your colleagues up in pennsylvania. do they know it? >>. >> and they're all good guys who've served well. but they think they can get away with playing both sides. they're not. because we will do -- democrats in pennsylvania will do a letter saying patrick meehan is a good guy, but he's got to be defeated. because if he stays in the crazies will control the government. the only way to get the tea party out of governing is for pat meehan to lose. and it's a pervasive argument if

the debt ceiling doesn't go up. >> here's the fuse that goes to the debt ceiling blowing up. john boehner will not have out a continuation of the debt extension ceiling. he will not do it unless it includes something that really hurts obama care. not a single democrat will support it. therefore he needs a full house of republicans. he needs 217 out of 232 to back his plan. therefore he will do anything -- he'll throw the kitchen sink at obama care to get the 217 out of 232 because he won't get a single vote from the democrats to do that. they're not going to destroy their major achievement. why doesn't he throw out the crazy 30 and say i'm going with a majority in the house, maybe a majority in my caucus and do little things that will make our point on obama care but won't be mortal wounds to it. we'll make a statement here. why doesn't he do that? because that would pass. >> who knows. the senate bill has two significant changes in obama care. it takes away the fee to

companies for giving -- who already give existing health care to their employees. that's a big plus for business. and it tightens the requirements. victory. run up the flag pole and say we won. we modified obama care. it's insane. and john boehner who i have a great deal of respect for and i know you do, it's time for him to step up and do something important for the country. if he loses his speakership, so what? there are some things in this world and for politicians like me, there are things that have to be worth losing for. and saving the american economy, saving our good faith and credit around the world, that's got to be risking losing for. i agree with you. i think if he did it, he doesn't lose. >> i think he's edmond burke and winston churchill. >> he's got to do it. >> you're not all sitting there looking at the polls. thank you former governor of pennsylvania. coming up, the gop kamikaze caucus. those who to bring down obama

care and. and simple question, who's your leader. where would they point to? who is running that group now? the elected leaders in congress, maybe. we'll see? the next two days. plus nobody's buying the republican mularkey. this is "hardball," the the place for politics. [ male announcer ] hurry in to red lobster's crabfest, with three entrées under $20. like our new snow crab and crab butter shrimp, just $14.99. only at red lobster where we sea food differently. [ male announcer ] now try 7 lunch choices at $7.99. sandwiches, salads, and more.

prefer the taste of gevalia house blend over the taste of starbucks house blend? not that we like tooting our own horn but... ♪ toot toot. [ male announcer ] find gevalia in the coffee aisle or at gevalia.com in congress continues to reach record levels. a new "washington post"/abc news poll finds 3/4 of americans disapprove the way congressional republicans are handling the debt crisis. that's a record. up 11 points since the shutdown began. 54% say they now strongly disapprove of republicans in congress. 53% say they disapprove of the

way president obama is handling the crisis. no winners here. we'll be right back. but with a mortgage. and the furniture's a lot nicer. and suddenly, the most important person in my life is someone i haven't even met yet. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. as you plan your next step, we'll help you get there.

a lot of what you see in the house, you see some republicans -- not all. i don't want to say this about the entire republican party, but some republicans are, you know, quite honestly they're acting childish about a lot of this. and they almost want a shutdown. they want to see us break the debt ceiling, things like that. very irresponsible. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was senator mark pryor making a key point about a segment of the republican caucus. i call them the farout people. a number of tea party republicans are still holding out, in fact, raising the stakes refusing to sign on any agreement that doesn't gut the affordable care act. congressman tim huelskamp mocked the potential deal in the senate telling "the new york times" quote, we've got a name for it in the house. it's called the senate surrender

caucus. anyone who would vote for that in the republican party would guarantee a primary challenger. alex wagner the host of "now with alex wagner" here on msnbc. eugene robinson is a columnist with "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst. eugene, let me ask you about this. clearly, there's a group within the cause kiss that are basically like sampson in the tempt. have them bow down before them. give the baby. here. please don't blow up the temple. that's the choice they'd love to do. give me our baby or we blow up the temple. that's your demand. they've been consistent on this. they went off and talked about stuff for the oil path, something about the federal lands. it all comes back to the thing

they want to hurt. that baby. >> and today they're just lashing out at the staff in congress. take away their health insurance. lashing out at just everywhere they possibly can for no reason. there's no -- >> they keep coming up with reasons except their blood lust to kill obama care. >> but they're not a majority. they're not a majority of the republican caucus. >> let's think about that eating at the mexican restaurant next to the house. this is one of the interesting -- in the past the lobby in the house to undermine speaker boehner. last night according to roll call, he met with a group of the most conservative republicans, quote, the group appeared to be talking strategy about how they should respond to a tentative senate deal to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling without addressing obama care in a substantive, in other words negative way. it was spotted by mccar thi who

is dining there. he looked like he was interested in what the group were saying. this has happened. the secret meetings. sometimes held in a basement. they always get out because people talk. why did they have a meeting, the block adjacent to the house office buildings, a mexican restaurant where anybody can walk by? >> because they don't particularly care if kevin mccarthy feels shutout because he is shutout. they're over there having the enchilada and kevin mccarthy is like can i have some guacamole too, guys? it is a testament to how degraded leadership is. that ted cruz from the senate comes in with the members of the congress to plot out. >> what do they do? tell the wait person, send a margarita to that guy, he looks lonely over there. this is about a $17 trillion

debt question to deal with. and we're talking about whether we're going to punish the staff on the hill or we're going to have another range war with the unions. this stuff can be dealt with all through the year through legislation. >> and the whip is not included. the house majority whip is not included in the conversation. >> i wonder why the next morning -- because mccarthy went back and told boehner. why did they still have offices the next morning? i would think that your new office is in the basement three levels below the capitol. >> we laugh about this because it's awful. the people out there driving trucks, doing jobs that are really rough, right? they got to wear kidney belts because of these long hauls. people will real hard jobs. got a congressman sitting around doing what? is this street theater? they're playing to the angriest people in the country. they figure as long as they put on a good show, they'll keep their jobs. >> what they're going to do to

that person who's working, who's scraped and bought a house -- >> paying his paycheck to washington. >> paying the money to washington and the mortgage. and they're threatening a recession. they're threatening to take the equity out of that house. >> already talked on the edge of making the move. stamping this thing. they don't trust it. "the washington post" reporting today after the house republican congress meeting quote, emerging from e in meeting tuesday morning walter jones of north carolina said many members have sincere deep concerns with the plan. he's willing to reopen the government but has not voted to raise the debt ceiling since 1997 and he says he vowed never to do so again. so that's one less republican. now boehner has to scrounge further to the right. >> can i say something about their motivation here? "a," i don't think they care about the struggling of the poor and working class. "b," there has been this whole

vein that has been born out about the debate of climate change, fancts, polls going int the 2012 elections and now being born out here. we don't have to believe what the economists say about the debt ceiling. we're not sure that's reel. a pew poll came out hours ago -- they are entitled to their own facts, they think they are at least. when you have people going by another set of facts, another set of data, it is impossible to compromise with them because there is no common ground anymore. >> people that take their car american or foreign to a dealer to get it fixed know they don't know how to do it themselves. they don't have the tools. people aren't stupid, they just don't have the tools or the technique. these are things you have to have somebody do that's a specialist. why do they not rely that way on the people that understand the

complexity of international finance? >> because they don't trust those people. they think they're all socialists. >> oh, they're all socialists. >> yeah. >> because they feel disenfranchised. >> i had a guy steve king on that says he doesn't listen to international economists. i said what about national. he says i don't listen to them either. but i raise a family. there are certain things you learn as raising a family. let kids cry a little bit, don't let them cry too long. but it doesn't help you with finance. >> not the same thing. >> there's one similarity. when you become a dead beat. and if you're going to become a dead beat, i don't see how that fits with republican thinking. one thing they've always said was they were the ones that were saying this is too much. stop here. here's the evil dishonesty here. the same people are saying and somebody said earlier on this network, the same people are

saying it doesn't matter if we go over the debt ceiling. if it was a republican president, we would be fighting to protect it. the same people. >> yes. and trying to impeach anybody that was trying to stop it. >> it's dishonest. i know they'll say matthews finally understands the deal here. thank you. up next, jimmy kimmel says what we're all thinking about ted cruz. he can say the worst and maybe it's appropriate. this is "hardball," the place for politics. thrusters at 30%! i can't get her to warp. losing thrusters. i need more power.

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why is the federal government spending money to erect barricades to keep veterans out of this memorial? >> let's see. i'm not sure, but i think it's because of you, right? we learned it from watching you, okay? >> well said. time for the sideshow. that was jimmy kimmel last night saying what everybody except senator cruz knew already. yesterday was also columbus day, of course. and the kimmel crew went on to find out how much people knew or know now about christopher columbus. here's what they found. ♪ >> he came to america and he ate thanksgiving. he had thanksgiving. >> columbus traveled the world, came to america, and whatever he came on must have been a canoe, kayak, same thing. i don't even know. he came to america and i guess

he found it. i guess. >> what year did he sail here? >> 1842. >> 1842, i believe? >> do you know what columbus' last name is? >> no. >> nope. >> you guys don't know columbus' last name? >> no. >> no. >> was something italian because he was an italian fella. >> i think it was something spanish like juan. >> that's always sad. next up, first lady michelle obama set to make a cameo on "the biggest loser" next month. last year she led a workout from the east room of the white house. it's all part of the first lady's let's move campaign which she hopes will reserve the growing obesity epidemic in this country it's not the first time we've seen this come out of the white house. a similar unrelated story today shed new light on william howard

taft's own struggle with obesity a hundred years ago. it turns out the portly chief exec who was more famous for his waistline than his presidency followed a diet regimen not different than those used today. a professor dug up correspondence that showed he recently consulted with doctors about his weight and kept notes about it. the result? he lost 59 pounds in less than a year. that's less room in the bathtub of his. up next, who's running the republican party? is it john boehner and the so-called leaders? or the full mooners of the far right? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. is a daily game of "what if's". what if my abdominal pain and cramps come back? what if the plane gets delayed? what if i can't hide my symptoms? what if? but what if the most important question is the one you're not asking? what if the underlying cause of your symptoms is damaging inflammation? for help getting the answers you need,

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abu anas al libi pleaded not guilty in new york. he is charged with planning to embassy bombings in 1998. bob filner pleaded guilty to false imprisonment and battery as part of a plea deal he faces home confinement and three years probation. and president obama awarded the medal of honor to bill swin son for saving troops in afghanistan in 2009. back to "hardball." there are a lot of opinions about what direction to go. there have been no decisions about what exactly we will do. >> mr. speaker, the changes in your bill to the president's health care law are pretty minor. were they worth a two-week government shutdown? >> we're working with our members on a way forward and to make sure we provide fairness to the american people. >> didn't answer the question. is it reasonable to bring down the government and threaten our

national credit standing for this stuff? anyway, time's pretty much up. we're now 15 days into the government shutdown. just a day before they say we're going to hit that debt ceiling and as you saw in that clip, boehner is no closer to coming to a deal with his own caucus. we sit on the edge of an economic collapse. that's real. the polls could change, but the facts are real. but still house republicans won't budge off their ideological fixation with the president's health care law even though it's not secret in this town that this is not what boehner wanted. it is however exactly what ted cruz wanted earlier in the year. we showed you this headline. ted cruz and house republicans meet in secret. it's no coincidence after that meeting boehner saw his latest plan soundly rejected by the caucus' far right forcing him to go back to the drawing board. according to gop sources, the reality is gop leadership does

not have enough votes to pass their own plan at this time. they're looking for changes that would increase support among republicans. what lies ahead for the republicans including who's in charge of that party on its way to a train wreck? michael steele and joan walsh. both are msnbc analysts. michael, the republican party is now represented by somebody in a mexican restaurant eating in a secret meeting with 30 red hots for the far right. not one for wanting more mexicans in the country. >> but like the food. >> let's go back to the facts tonight. they had a secret meeting in the basement -- not secret because mccarthy spotted them across the room. that wasn't secret. this guy have stirred them up enough that 30 people have once said no deal to john boehner. they want more red hot stuff.

more red meat, something to take something away from obama care and hurts the president physically. >> the president's not going to stagger out of this deal. and that's the problem. the president is in the strongest possible position with respect to obama care. because he's got all the weight of evidence on his side. including two elections and the supreme court decision. set that aside. so where does the party need to go now? it is not necessarily to block john boehner. let john boehner cut the deal to get you out from under this. you can fight another day on obama care because it's not going anywhere. and you need more votes to get anything substantively done on it anyway. so the real battle in front of us right now is the nation's debt ceiling. how do we go about making the argument to bring in the level of spending to decrease the size of government consistent with principles but also what the polls are showing the american people want. that's where the fight is. we've gotten so far off on this thing now. >> but tonight, michael, tonight

there's going to be another wasted vote for something that's never going to happen. more slices and attacks for obama care by the house. why do they keep going in the direction that doesn't take them anywhere? >> i agree with you on that. i don't know why there is this effort to keep going into the wall and thinking every time you hit it, you've made progress. >> one thought is institutional. that the u.s. senate is made up of people that represent all states. they represent minorities, liberals, big cities as well as small towns, they have to be somewhat representative of the people they represent. now, house members represent for 90% in some cases republican districts where they don't have to listen to anybody. they'll get re-elected just for being angry. all they have to do is prove they're angry, and they're re-elected. this is where we have the stalemate in the house. >> john boehner is a profile. but the house republicans have not impressed me either. they're not really doing anything. they're talking, maybe they come

on msnbc, maybe they say something that sounds brave. but at the end of the day, no one's leading any kind of charge. the only way this ends, chris, and michael knows this right now is boehner turns to nancy pelosi and says help the get the votes for something. and that has to be what the senate is going to do. it's been written. it's been preordained if we get out of it. i think there's still a possibility that we don't. it's really waiting for john bain tore wise up, let the babies cry it out and then turn partner with nancy pelosi like he's done before. >> this is the problem for boehner. if he goes with them on this thing, some kind of health care demolition squad, if he sets another debt ceiling or rather continuation of the government, he's basically consigning himself to every two months another government shutdown, every two months something to do with the debt, every two months something else to attack obama care. they're not going to stop until

they've won. if they get a piece of obama care, they'll come back for a leg, an arm, the torso, the head. they're not going to stop because if they keep winning. why does he join the group? you say don't do it. but tell me why he's is doing it. there's no future in it. >> i don't know why he's doing it other than to feel in the end he's going to get people to the table. >> when's he going to lead? >> i think we're at a point here where boehner says either yes i'm just going to stand with the caucus and we're going to watch this thing come to its inevitable end which has catastrophic effects, or he says i sacrifice my speakership. in other words, i'm going to have to do what joan said. i'll have to go to nancy pelosi and take 15 or 20 republicans with me who will cast this vote and get this done that way. then it's over. because the base at that point is completely done, and that's a decision he has to ultimately make. whether or not this is worth it. >> you think they would dump

him? >> if he cuts the deal and leaves obama care untouched on the table, absolutely. >> but who has the votes to beat him at this point? it's such a fractured caucus at this point. i think he's a danger. i don't want to minimize it, but you count votes and who would get a majority? >> i don't think he's a leader if he keeps going on the route he's on. he's a follower. let's look at the pros and cons of his strategy not to stand up to the tea party. cons, shut down the government get blamed for it. push markets to the edge get blamed for it. distract away from the health care laws rocky rollout. see historic approval lows. unify the opposition. remember when everyone was talking about the fractured state of democrats on sommers. nobody remembers that. the only pro for boehner, he's still speaker. but for how long? now there's cruz.

he's become a folk to to the right. he won the values voter summit straw poll. and his influence is growing on house gop. and he knows where to get good mexican food. when you were running the party, it had pride. >> yeah. and a lot of that pride is misplaced right now. i think we are standing in the wilderness going, which direction. and the american people are making it clear where they want us to go on this. this from the beginning from my estimation was not about obama care because obama care was an unappropriated entity you couldn't do anything about. you live to fight another day on that front to reform it and fix it in the normal course. >> do they want to do anything to fix it? >> i think a majority of the members do want to fix it. it's the way they've gone about it. i think the battle is over the spending levels, over the level of the debt, and the mortgage that we're putting on the backs

of our kids in the future. that's a conversation americans want to have. we still have job creation issues and so forth. and the party's so far out right now, how do they swing back? >> that's my question to you, joan. you've got to answer there. how does boehner bring his party back to the table where there can be a deal? because without a deal, failure. failure of this whole process. >> i don't think he does. i mean, i think he brings some people who vote with democrats to lift the debt ceiling. this worries me as a democrat. to some extent, you could say this is a victory for republicans. they are getting what they want in terms of a shorter lifting of the debt ceiling. we do come back at least in the senate bill talked about last night. it never took shape, so we don't know really what's in it yet. but they were going to come up with some kind of debt solution and they were going to have a big negotiation on the budget that was going to be done by the middle of december. and liberals often get shafted in that. so -- >> guess what.

they've got a deal. they're saying now they want another government shutdown december 15th. the same time they say they want a report on this long-term spending cut and entitlement reform. they want it all done. in other words for the next two months nothing but craziness. >> and government by crazy is no way to govern. >> and some think it's crazy for democrats to even agree to that. but that's sort of where we are. so harry reid went to mitch mcconnell. john boehner did not go to nancy pelosi or any democrat. >> it's terrible. thank you, michael steele and joan. what a prognostication. we're going to look ahead for the next to months in is the. up next, this is the most ludicrous. let's have another demonstration about what we didn't do what everyone us doing. this is "hardball," the place for politics. refer to do on my . but when it comes to investing, i just think it's better to work with someone. someone you feel you can really partner with.

unfortunately, i've found that some brokerage firms don't always encourage that kind of relationship. that's why i stopped working at the old brokerage, and started working for charles schwab. avo: what kind of financial consultant are you looking for? talk to us today. we are the thinkers. the job jugglers. the up all-nighters. and the ones who turn ideas into action. we've made our passions our life's work. we strive for the moments where we can say, "i did it!" ♪ we are entrepreneurs who started it all... with a signature. legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. and we're here to help start yours. turning dreamers into business owners. there is a pursuit we all share. a better life for your family, a better opportunity for your business, a better legacy to leave the world.

we have always believed in this pursuit, striving to bring insight to every investment, and integrity to every plan. we are morgan stanley. and we're ready to work for you. three big races coming up in the next three weeks. let's check the "hardball" score board. first to new jersey in the special election if r the united states senate. cory booker leads republican steve lonegan by 14 points. it's booker 54, lonegan 40. and the new rutgers poll has booker's lead bigger. booker 58, lonegan 36. that's a 22-point spread for mr. booker. that election is tomorrow. now to the flargess. chris christie up by 24. 59-35.

the candidates debate tonight. finally to virginia where a new university poll has mccauliffe in the lead by seven points. mccauliffe 46, ken cuccinelli 39. we'll be right back.

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and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro. how do you deny them access? i don't get that. >> it's difficult. >> it should be. >> i'm sorry, sir. >> park service should be ashamed of themselves. >> i'm not ashamed. >> well, you should be. >> wow. not ashamed. good for her. we're back. after shutting down the government, the republicans are going to great lengths to convince it was the democrats

that did it all along. republicans knew shutting down cancer research was bad public relations. so they dressed up in lab coats and pretended to be outraged that medical research was being compromised. >> are you saying now you sayin perhaps there's been a change about the thinking of the role of government and how much money should be going to these agencies? >> i have been incentive in making a priority funding for the nih and specifically funding for pediatric research. >> the fine print they didn't want you to see was the 2013 house republican budget -- the designated spokesperson, eric cantor himself proposed a $1.3 billion cut to the nih just a year earlier. sam stein, msnbc contributor and

liz winstead the co-creator of today's show. sam, what is the consistency here in their argument that, you know, the park guards and going after the ww 2, they're good pr, but don't they know that that was a measure imposed by ted cruz. >> reporter: the broader point is what you touched on earlier is all these separate things they wanted to fund, whether it was nih, whether it was head start, all these things are limited in funding by the sequestration levels that they adhered to. so there's limitations to their devotion to the nih, you can't say one week put on lab coats and fund scientific researches for cancer and then within days insist that sequestration funding stay in place. >> i think the republicans are

trying to do their best at street theater. and they're not the most theatrical of political parties, but they've been doing these show boating things, they have been encouraging those maniacs to go to the white house and throw them at the white house fence. it's just short of violence. that was an odd alliance i saw the other day, the guys with the pony tails and the harleys all seem to be aligned with the republicans. >> this is the party that actually said, there's some parts of obama care that they wanted to keep and it was the whole of obama care. we want to remove access to birth control. the people who say what's good for the government is if we shut it down. i'm more concerned about the people who keep voting for them than almost i am them. >> you know, i wish more people would point out the obvious

inconsistency in what they say. they don't like sex education, they don't like the availability of birth control pills or condom ors anything like that. but they see the realities of unplanned for pregnancies which could lead to in many cases abortion and they don't see the connection, but they keep espousing this stuff. sam, this whole thing, though, i think it's all a very purposeful effort to cut their losses. people who read the newspapers know that republicans want to shoot downi the government. >> i think it's more complex than that. i think what ended up happening was they walked themselves into a corner. they wanted to turn around and say we never did this. so the only way out of it was to do these piecemeal fundi ining efforts. this is all part of ted cruz's

plans, we'll shut down the government, we'll pass things that are very popular and leave everything shut down. then the republicans shut down the government and then bemoan the fact that the government was shut down. it just didn't make sense. >> how far is he going to go? he's meeting at the restaurant with 20 or 30 -- >> right now what we're hearing in the conservative group is they want to keep the government shut downing, but pass a very short-term debt rate hike. the republican leadership hasn't really indicated where they want to go on this? there's no indication they have the votes to combine the two. we're going to keep the government shut down for now the third week. and whether the president will accept that is anyone's guess. >> and how dumb are you that you want to push it short-term to the point where the next time we're talking about this again

is when people are getting ready to spend their money for christmas? you know, it's like what do they understand? >> you mean that might hurt the economy? >> you think? >> perhaps. >> although i'm a jew so it doesn't matter to me. >> in a weird way with all these stakes being historic and yet they play it like a board game. i don't think there's anything worth in what they're doing. thank you sam, liz, for coming here. we'll be right back after this. creamy thai style chicken with rice. mexican-style chicken tortilla. if you think campbell's 26 new soups sound good, imagine how they taste. m'm! m'm! good! imagine how they taste. a playground of innovation,. color, and design. showing up where we least expect it. and taking inspiration from our wildest dreams.

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let me finish tonight with this. tonight we're having a big get together in washington to mark the publication of my book, "tipping the gipper." people asked me about the arrival of this book. i timed it like so many of my books to the happy season of advent leading to the holidays. we had a president, the people, even his rivals possessed historic staff your. we had a committed democratic opposition that kept reagan has a conservative president and not a radical one. kept our own country together behind reagan when he cut the cold war deals ending with

mikhail gorbachev. and that's "hardball" for now, thanks for being with us, all in with chris hayes starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes and it's been an insane day in washington. just 48 hours before the country will reach it's debt ceiling, an uncertain future for how exactly this countiry will prevent a first of its kind default. a deal offered by speaker john boehner to reopen the government and lift the debt ceiling, one that was supposed to be voted on by the house tonight as i speak to you. that deal