and -- that final scene, was just incredible. >> thank you, lawrence. i really appreciate you having me on tonight. >> thank you very much for joining us. >> i want to thank all my great fans too. >> thanks, richard. >> okay, lawrence. >> up next, "hardball" with chris mattews. the endless bummer. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews. let me start with this. -- are ready to do it all again. and again and again. cruz is blaming his fellow senate republicans. far bigger is the relentless onslaught of anger against the president, the affordable care act, and all things obama. for that the course is now set. a huge fight over the budget heading into the week before christmas.

another government shutdown looming early in the new year. finally another debt ceiling the month after that. expect this fight against obama to barrel all the way until 2016. for his enemies, the demolition of this president remains their most exciting quest. they call it the cause. its battle flag is the stars and bars. the notion somehow those who back cruz and lee are the real americans. to take it back from the other. minorities and liberals and others who to them constitute the enemy. be warned. with every fresh defeat, this crowd becomes more frustrated and angry. this made the they who are the true superamericans assume their votes should count more than those lesser folk they think are lesser who voted for the president. how else do you describe a group that was outnumbered at the polls that call themselves the american people. joining me howard fineman and jonathan capehart.

both are msnbc political analysts. but first tonight, gentlemen, a little comic relief following more than two weeks of dysfunction. in a comparison pointed out by john pedorits, he called it the animal house shutdown. complete with senators ted cruz and mike lee playing the roles of otter and bluto in this great misguided call to arms. >> we got to take these bastards. now, could fight them with conventional weapons. that could take years and cost millions of lives. in this case i think we have to go all out. i think this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part. >> we're just the guys to do it.

>> howard, a real futile gesture. what have these two weeks accomplished for anybody on this planet? >> chris, i should point out that at the end of the movie they show blutarski there becomes a united states senator. i don't know if you remember that. >> thank you for that bit of history. we did need it this week. >> perfect. first of all, as funny as that was, there's nothing to laugh at here. i think this is the beginning among other things of a real grassroots civil war in the republican party. you saw today that the ted cruz and his allies went after senator thad cochran who voted for the reid/mcconnell deal. they're going to support the tea party challenger down there. i think mitch mcconnell is going to stepped up antagonism from the cruz faction. one of the things that's going to happen between now and 2016

is a real ground war led by the cruz people against anybody who disagrees with them. so part of their mission is not only to point to those moments that you're talking about come january and february, they're in this for the long haul and they're looking to take over the republican party. >> let me go to jonathan on this, but their fuel. what angers people, the hatred of obama is the fuel for their engines. they may be going after what they call chicken republicans, but they're really running on the fuel of hatred of obama. hatred of obama care if you want to call it that. hatred of anything with his name on it. anything they can tie to him, any vote. >> right. absolutely. you know, i wrote a piece yesterday, the irrational fear of president obama. and it was based on an interview that our colleague stephanie cargill and i did with a man in north carolina. we were there to talk to people in belmont about what they knew about obama care and what they

didn't. and just asking him about obama care led us down this sort of rabbit hole of conspiracy and fear of the president that when you read the transcript -- portions of the transcript i put in the piece, it's -- i've heard people say it's scary, it's mind boggling, what world are these people in. but they firmly believe that the president is out to destroy the country. they don't trust him. and they support folks who support their viewpoint. >> jonathan, take this carefully, i mean it carefully. just imagine we had an african-american president who did three things. he doubled the stock market, took the dow to double where it was when he came in. he went out in a fever pitch killing our enemies in the world using all modern technology to do it. not listening to the left. going out and killing our enemies with whatever he can use, using s.e.a.l. teams that the guy before him couldn't do. and he used the republican plan on health care, the heritage foundation plan.

do you think they would applaud that? i'm just being sarcastic, because that's what he did. >> right. if that president were white, you mean. yes. absolutely they would applaud what he did. >> excuse me. >> of course they would applaud that. i just should point out, chris, that david jackson in north carolina told me he does not believe that osama bin laden is dead. he does not believe that the united states on orders from president obama actually killed america's number one enemy. >> and what does he think happened? that obama's cooperating with us in some way by acting dead? >> i just -- i couldn't explain it. i asked the question. he gave an answer. >> so the ship bringing him home before they buried him at sea did everything right by his religion, did those people lie? they all lied? >> they -- i can't explain where he got that from or why he even said that. >> anyway, the republicans are already itching for the next fight, of course.

and the next target date has been set with the continuing appropriations act. january 15th is when they can fight again over shutting down the government. their favorite cause now. and the debt ceiling has to be raised by february 7th giving them another date to which they can threaten the u.s. and world economies. here they are putting on their game face. >> so we're going to continue to stand up for our values that we have all along. >> what does this mean for the future of the republican party? >> this means that we're doing exactly the right thing. we're choosing the right areas to advocate on for the people of the country. we'll continue to do that. >> we will, indeed, continue to fight. we're not going anywhere. >> we took a charge at this and fell short. at the end of the day we lost the battle, but we're going to win the war over obama care. >> sometimes you think it's the battle of gettysburg on here. spoke on the senate floor yesterday about what the world might be like if it only were as he imagines it. let's listen.

>> i would ask you, mr. president, to imagine a different world. mr. president, i ask you to imagine a world in which senate republicans united to support house republicans. imagine that one piece being different from what we saw. imagine after the house republicans stood together with the american people, if all 46 senate republicans had stood together and said we are united against the train wreck that is obama care. i want you to imagine, mr. president, if senate republicans have stood together and simply supported house republicans and the american people. mr. president, if that had happened, this result, i believe, would have been very, very different. >> howard, it's exactly your point. he's making war against his fellow republicans using the fuel of anger against obama.

but you've been around like i have for awhile, that's a strange use of the senate floor. the areas on the senate floor which is to conduct the business of the people as americans, and he's operating like he's in a republican countercaucus, some town meeting. he talks like he's at a town meeting. he's blasting away at fellow members of the republican party, using the senate floor to do it. i just think it's strange. it's unusual to do it. >> i agree with you, chris. that's one of the striking things about it. but ted cruz brings his mental town hall, his mental congregation, if you will. there's a sort of religious tone to a lot of what he does. he brings that with him wherever he goes. it's a portable construct that he's got everywhere. whether he's speaking to a bunch of reporters outside the senate or on the floor or the senate anywhere. utterly political, utterly militant, utterly focused. and their goal -- the goal of

his and of the people who are around him is nothing less than a take over the republican party from the inside, if they can, or the destruction of it from the outside if they can't. and i think that every -- first of all, any republican senator who is up for re-election who supported the reid/mcconnell deal of the other night is going to face a well financed, well financed challenge with money channelling via ted cruz and his allies who include jim demint of heritage, who include the koch brothers. >> it looks like a purge. >> they're going to do the purge if they can. they have nothing but contempt for people they view as accommodationists who are in league either deliberately or by by neglect with barack obama. >> president obama admonished defeated republicans today that breaking our system of

government is not the way to make change, not breaking it. helping it. and he had a suggestion of how they might one day get what they want. let's listen. >> you don't like a particular policy or a particular president, then argue for your position. go out there and win an election. push to change it. but don't break it. don't break what our predecessors spent over two centuries building. >> you know, sometimes the president isn't at his best. he was today. and i thought, jonathan, i thought going out there and win an election is the best. you want to run for office and give the speeches and win one time. you can't beat me in elections. i go out there and debate. at least i'm running. what are you guys doing? what you're doing is waiting

until we need the debt ceiling passed and trying to screw the country to get what you want. extortion. why don't you play fair? i think it really comes down to it. it's not illegal what these guys have done. we know that. but it breaks the rules of normal political debate and decision making. because if everything is like this, it's going to get worse. it'll always get worse. if you keep going the direction that the cruz is taking everybody. >> it breaks the rules of governance. in that clip that's the president talking about what just happened over the last few months from the 35,000-foot level. but what he said there is what he was saying in a more granular fashion about the affordable care act. the affordable care act, obama care was passed by both houses of congress, signed into law by the president, upheld -- challenged in the supreme court and upheld by the supreme court and then ratified by the american people vis-a-vis the 2012 presidential election where the affordable care act and its

repeal or staying in place was the central -- one of the central themes of the campaign and yet as you said and as we all know, you had a narrow band of the majority pushing a no-win strategy to convince this president to do away with, to defund, delay, and repeal his signature legislative accomplishment. and as we all knew going into this, if that's what the republicans want to do, then they're going to need to take over the senate in 2014 and the white house in 2016. >> and the first step towards that is taking down the confederate flag from the political rallies. that would be a good start. thank you so much howard fineman. you hit the head here. jonathan capehart, thank you so much. coming up, what do republicans get out of all this? changes in the affordable care act? no. reduced spending? not at all. improved poll ratings, better ratings for 2016. no, no, no.

plus until now, democrats have had no shot at winning back the house in 2014. again, until that -- we'll see. if anything could change the odds, this shutdown might have been it. also $24 billion. that's the cost of these republican antics. this was expensive theater for us. the shutdown did real damage to real people. finally, why one republican compared ted cruz to a bunny in heat. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

cory booker is the new u.s. senator. he won to fill the term of frank lautenberg. a very low turnout election. booker will have to run for re-election next year.

it looks like he'll do it well. we'll be right back.

♪ for a store near you go to benjaminmoore.com/bayarea. for a store near you go to benjaminmoore.com/bayarea.

welcome back to "hardball." in washington we're used to conflict between republicans and democrats, of course. but what we're seeing now is a civil war within the republican party between tea party and non-tea party republicans. well, the wounds in the divisions are deep. and the tone's getting worse. here is rush limbaugh today. actually yesterday. >> the republicans agreed to tie one hand behind their back because of obama's race. they have the other hand tied behind their back by this trick that got them to shut up. i was pondering if i can ever remember a greater political disaster in any lifetime, if i could ever remember a time when a political party just made a decision not to exist. for all intents and purposes. >> well, the reasonable and responsible right in the republican party is fighting back against the limbaugh, cruz, and demint crowd.

this is what a few non-tea party republicans talked about the damage done to the country and to their party. >> it was a fool's errand. and that's why some of us became so angry. >> do people realize that the strategy didn't work the way they wanted it to? >> some say it worked perfectly. it depends which you're living in. >> i hope we learn from she past and employ different tactics that may be more successful in the future. >> is there short-term damage? >> yes. is there long-term damage? we'll see. >> we'll see. former congressman steve latourette and kathleen parker. thank you for joining us. i want a sense i'm going to withhold my comment as long as you're on the air. and just hear from you folks. because you probably know more about this issue than i do. how goes -- kathleen, how goes the afterglow for some of this big fight?

>> well, it's definitely not an afterglow in the republican party. there are those who would argue that this has been ultimately a fight that the republican party had to have and that in the long-term, it's actually probably something good. and by that i mean that there were -- there's this contingent of younger freshman congressmen who don't really get how the system works. and i don't use that term system in a negative way. john boehner, the speaker of the house, has always had a strategy. he tried unsuccessfully to convince his members to come along with him. that strategy with a much longer view. and these younger guys that came in in 2010 wanted to fight. if we fight, then we win. even if we lose. of course that's sort of nonsensical. it's clear they did lose. and what i'm hearing from this speaker's office is that some of

these folks have now seen the light. and they understand now that they did approach things incorrectly. it's at least tactically. now, the speaker himself made a decision, clearly, to lead his conference where they wanted to go. and that was not what he wanted to do, but he was preserving unity within the ranks rather than allow civil war to erupt. that's where they are. >> congressman, he seemed to lead -- he waited until it was clear he had no alternative to pass a bill through the house. to save us from default. do you think that was the best strategy for him to keep his speakership? >> i think it is -- i'm sorry. am i interrupting? >> i'm going to the congressman. go ahead. >> that's okay. was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbor? no and it's not over now.

we are going to have a robust conversation. the speaker did what he had to do. people who criticize him need to know he is the elected leader of the republican conference. and they told him that they wanted to engage in this idiotic strategy that had no chance of success. i called it the death march to nowhere. in an attempt to show them how stupid it was. even this tuesday, he came up with not one plan but two plans to help them save them from themselves. and they rejected it. and what do you expect? he made it clear he's not going to let the nation default. he thought that the shutdown was stupid. he's an institutionalist. he's a governing guy. he was going to open it back up. >> immediately following last night's vote, the far right had its pitch forks out for re-election next year. they named names here. eric erickson said men like

mitch mcconnell, john cornyn, and eric cantor have preached a great sermon against obama care but now conservatives who supported them see that these men have refused to actually practice what they've been preaching. and sarah palin said quote, rest well tonight for soon we must focus on important house and senate races. let's start with kentucky which happens to be awfully close to south carolina, tennessee, and mississippi. kathleen, i just wonder whether -- who's winning this fight? ted cruz and company and that posse or the regulars, the people who were calling for regular order at those meetings the last couple days? >> the big question, chris, is what happens in the primaries. the candidates who can win the primaries in these conservative districts are not people who can win in general elections. and they're not the people that represent the larger population in this country which as you know from the recent nbc/was it

gq -- the poll? >> wall street journal, the big one. >> most people identify as centrist. they are tired of this nonsense. and i think the tea party is much less representative of the country as a whole. so we'll see. i know that the republicans are working very hard to recruit. when i say the republicans, the rational ones that are really interested in winning who are really interested in long-term strategies and trying to get things done for the country rather than just winning the little battles along the way. they're trying to recruit candidates who not only can win the primary, but can also appeal to a more general audience. >> congressman, do you know what i thought was an interesting poll? 51% of your party said the tea party is not part of the gop. it's not part of the party itself. how do you read that? >> well, i read that it is not the republican party. it's the tea party. and they're activated by -- most of them tend to be republicans,

but they don't speak for the party even though they think that they do on a regular basis. to kathleen's point, what we're trying to do in our new little enterprise of main street is to recruit people. we have one litmus test. that is you not be crazy. and we will support you against some of these people? >> how do you do that? do you put weights on them and see if they float or one of those things? how do you know? >> if they can fog a mirror and not spew repeal obama care, they're in. but this is going to be a fight between now and 2016 where noses are going to get bloodied. but we've got to have this fight. because these folks are hijacking the republican party. i was representing a democratic district for years. they say i'm going to vote for you because i didn't leave the democratic party. they left me. i didn't know what the hell they were talking about. today i know what they were talking about. >> well said for you. thanks for coming. the former congressman and the

columnist out of "the washington post." up next, the metaphor to end all metaphors about what ted cruz is up to. this is "hardball," the place for politics. i'm christina caradona, i'm a fashion blogger, so style is my thing. and i'm not gonna let my period get in the way of what i want to wear! [ female announcer ] tampax radiant protects 30% better and comes with a resealable wrapper for discreet disposal. mix and match your protection with the whole radiant collection.

back to "hardball." time for the sideshow, of course. you probably notice the drama that unfolded in capitol hill inspired many to use analogies to describe obstructionists in the republican. probably used the most bizarre metaphor on cnn tuesday night. here he was describing the tactics used by ted cruz. >> a friend explained to me today finally what ted cruz is doing, and i finally understand. he's having bunny sex. >> wow. this is a little late night edition of 360.

>> in nature there are boom and bust cycles. the snow shoe hare expand tenfold. >> are you high? what are you talking about? >> i wish i was. the snow shoe hare, every ten years multiplies six fold. bunnies like sex, apparently. but the boom produces a bust. they press their food supply, they invite predators. right now ted cruz what's he's doing feels good, he's growing his supporters, he's leading the republican party i think into a bust. >> next up, former new york mayoral candidate anthony weiner is in the latest edition of gq magazine. he says his sexting scandal laments from his strategy.

then maybe, just maybe i would have won. but weiner's what if is a little different. quote, maybe if the internet didn't exist like if i was running in 1955. i'd probably get elected mayor. if only. i guess he could blame the whole thing on al gore for inventing it. just kidding. finally, senator john mccain dismissed louie gohmert's accusation that he john mccain secretly supported al qaeda. >> congressman gohmert of texas called you an al qaeda supporter and it hardly made a blip in all the talk. >> well, on that particular issue, sometimes those are comments like that are made out of malice. but if someone has no intelligence, i don't view it as being a malicious statement. >> if someone has no intelligence, i don't see it as a malicious statement. what a great appropriate putdown by senator mccain. up next, the shutdown may have given democrats something they didn't think they'd have. a chance to win.

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welcome back to "hardball." it took 16 days of a government shutdown and a near default for house speaker john boehner so summon the guts to stand up to the tea party. up until last night he gave into tea party demands at every turn. it was a strategy aimed at somehow keeping the two fractured sides of his caucus together. it hasn't. a new pew poll says only 32% view the tea party as part of the grand old party. well, one echoed saying quote there are members with a different agenda and i'm not sure they're republicans or conservative. with the gop fractured and the tea party showing no signs of surrender, the fault lines may only get worse. who knows. so far it's been a win fall to the democrats in national polls. according to a new survey, the public wants a

democrat-controlled congress in 2014 by a margin of eight points. it was just a three-point margin a month ago. steve israel from new york, he's also chair of the campaign committee. congressman israel, the problem you face is that you've got to pick up, what is it? how many seats do you need right now to pick up majority? >> 17 seats. >> and you face the historic problem of gerrymandering. you have to have a break even. what kind of a spread do you need to win? >> well, look. >> six points? >> even after redistricting, we'll have about 50 to 55 republican seats in play. we're going to defend about 20 incumbent democrats. but there's going to be 50 to 55 districts in play. what's happened over the past two weeks or so is a seat change. the generic has spread from anywhere four to ten of the top 20 competitive districts in the

country. why is that? this shutdown may have improved our prospects towards winning the house, but it has damaged the economy. cost the economy $24 billion. people are going to remember this. >> let me ask you about recruitment. you know, i think i know, that the best candidates tend to win. usually the local mayor, someone a state senator with a good record. a celebrity of some kind. you've got to better chance than a state rep, someone without a lot of profile. how's it going on recruitment given what's been going on the last several weeks? >> actually, we've had a bit of a recruitment surge because people are just sick and tired, they are fed up. and so these are legislators. we have problem solvers. we have people who are entrepreneurs. they know you can't run a business by shutting the business down. you can't expand your local economy by going into default. so they have stepped up to the plate. we have people who we had asked if they were interested in running several months ago.

they weren't sure. they didn't see a path. now the door is open. and they're actively considering this path. we have one in omaha, nebraska, city councilman who is a problem solver. he knows there's no republican or democratic way to pave the streets as you excellent book just talked about. >> thank you for that. >> and -- you're welcome. and now he's decided to run because he's sick and tired of the recklessness and the irresponsibility. >> how do you go into the suburbs where the republicans have been pretty good in places like that that are middle class people. they are middle class people and working class, possible democratic pickups. how do you go in places like bucks county where these people at least saved their keisters in the last couple hours. >> they really believe you can fool awe all of the people all of the time.

those people going to their districts today saying i was always for a clean vote. they had 16 days to join democrats in opening the government and avoiding default. they chose 16 opportunities in 16 days not to step up to the plate. so they're not innocent bystanders. they were enablers and empowerers. and we're going to hold them accountable for those decisions. >> okay. thank you so much. congressman steve israel who runs the democratic congressional campaign committee. let's go to michael grimm. he's from new york and staten island. how do you answer to that? you were with the leadership, of course, yesterday in ending this stupid thing. i think it was worthless. do you think it was worth anything these weeks of government shutdown and really endangering america's standing economic in the world? was it worth to spend to weeks talking about affordable care.

>> i don't think anyone wins in this. i think congress looks bad. the president looks bad for not engaging to talks sooner. >> okay. i'm going to follow your thinking. do you think he should have talked about taking apart obama care what's been passed into law? >> no, but he has to be above the fray. he can sit down with both sides in the room and say i'm not here to negotiate obama care, but this is what i'm willing to talk about. the fact the debt is continuing to grow and there's no end in sight. that's something republicans want to talk about. so it's not good enough when you're the leader, you're the president of the united states of america, to simply say because obama care was on the table, i'm not going to talk. >> that's not what your leader did. even mr. boehner never challenged the hard right of your party. saying stop talking about obama care. where this president might behind a bit. but i didn't hear anything

standing up. i never heard boehner say -- his speech two days ago was this is about obama care. he talked about it as the issue. he kept it right there. he didn't say let's talk about something else like you just said. >> there's no question. >> when there's no question, you guys could have changed the subject and you didn't. >> i've been honest saying there's blame to go around all the way. i think the challenge for the republican party now is how do we unite? and i think we unite by coalescing around the ideals that we really believe in. that if we don't come up with a deficit and overall debt reduction program, then we are compromising the real future of this country where we can't just raise a debt ceiling. because we're no longer credit worthy. and what do we leave our children and grandchildren but a country that has defaulted because we couldn't pay our bills, not because of political bickering but because we really couldn't pay our bills. i think that's how we get our party back together. >> first of all, i'm not against your re-election. i love the fact that bay ridge and places like that which are

truly middle class have that republican representation. let me ask you a question in the poll. do you believe the tea party is separate from the republican party or part of it? >> well, i think it's separate in a sense that it's not the mainstream gop. >> if you just had to answer that poll question, is it separate from the gop or part of the gop? >> i think it's separate from the gop. it's its own entity. >> this is what i like on "hardball." now we've made news together. i like the answer. thank you michael grimm of staten island and bay ridge and other places. thank you. up next, republicans like to toss around the word job killing. what about the shutdown? what did that cost the country? at least 24 billion bucks which is a lot of money, isn't it? anyway, this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ female announcer ] some people like to pretend a flood could never happen to them. and that their homeowners insurance protects them.

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terry mccauliffe is holding his lead in the race. according to our poll, mccauliffe leads cuccinelli by eight points. and the libertarian in the race with nine. last month the lead was five points. "hardball" back after this.

we're back. despite the antics of tea party red hots like ted cruz and michele bachmann, the government shutdown was not some game or street theater. the gop's kamikaze strategy has claimed more than just political casualties on the right. $24 billion have been drained from the economy, according to standard & poor's. economic growth predictions have been slashed is, consumer confidence saw its biggest decline since the 2008 bankruptcy of lehman brothers. and thanks to the short-term nature of the deal, the prospects of a credit downgrade are still very much alive out there. and then important workers were furloughed. the national institutes of health had to slash cancer treatment trials and and jim cramer is host of cnbc's "mad

money." let me start with andrew. it's hard to put a price tag, because some of this is intangible, but it seems to me if you're out there standing on the cliff, one of these days you're going to fall. i project this forward, as a question to you. projecting forward this new tenancy of americans, watching us from tokyo or beijing or anywhere else, the fact that we're willing to go out there on the cliff of moors over in ireland and dance around like a bunch of hot shot 20-year-olds, like it's not 200 feet to your death, is that sending the word to the world out there, we're kind of nuts. >> 100%, we are nuts, we're completely nuts, and we're getting more nuts. and what i worry about, as we figure out whether we get a grand bargain or we don't, whether the rest of the world will think we're nuttier or other. other people had different numbers. i think this has been a huge -- there has been a huge world of

hurt going on here, across the economy, and you're feeling it everywhere. we've had all sorts of ceos on over the past couple of days and some of the earnings reports are already starting to suggest that. what worries me more, however, is actually that over the next three months, nobody's going to do business. because nobody knows what the heck is about to happen. and nobody knows whether there's going to be some kind of wild, as you say, kamikaze game that happens all over again, and what that means. now, on the other side, i'll say one thing. there are going to be some companies that will try to play through this and say, we can see through this, because we know everybody's crazy, but we also know that ultimately, there's some kind of strange rationality that happens at the end of the game. >> let's talk, jim cramer and i, about the two-faced nature of some people who are experts, who know more than i, as much as you know. i know during the o.j. trial, we would have lawyers on and tell me in the back room that the guy is guilty, and then they would get on tv and tell me he's guilty as hell.

i have come across people, without naming names again, who i know are smart. they say, don't worry about this debt default. it's all nonsense. and i think, are they telling their clients that? is this something they take into the clapper if they're in academics? why do people change their analysis based on where they're sitting politically at that moment? >> did senator cruz's wife tell senator cruz? because she's at goldman and goldman was telling people, listen, we could be in a heap of trouble. goldman was probably the most out there saying that this could be really dangerous. >> can pillow talk lie? i don't know. >> all i know, chris, is that people i dealt with were saying, jim, do you know what will happen? i don't know what's going to happen. these are people who run trillions of dollars. no one knew, but we knew it was going to be bad. >> yeah, but why did the people say it wasn't? i was on television shows recently, people have seen me with them, and they come out and say right to your face, it doesn't matter, when common sense tells you, i might default on what i owe you. >> i think people are either afraid or they don't want to cause panic. a lot of people are afraid of

washington, chris. i dealt with a lot of ceos. i said, guys, go down and straighten these people out. and maybe we need a favor some day and we can't go calling it. >> let's go back to andrew. is it possible we read something in all of this, that everybody learned something. i know this will sound cruel, but i know a lot of people on the right, left, and center say that government shutdowns are bad, but they're not catastrophic. and they're not trying to get in january. >> that's the danger point. the danger point is actually that we didn't learn anything and we repeat this all over again. and at some point, maybe we don't default, but at some point, our lenders, the people who lend money to our country, including people here in china and everyone else are going to say, these people, i'm not sure they're good for the money, or i'm not sure they're going to be good for the money when they say they are. and that is a problem. because it means all of our costs are going to go up. >> how about the pilot on the plane, you're flying to hawaii, and on the way to hawaii, the

pilot announces when you're about 100 miles from hawaii, he says, we might be out of gas, i'm not sure. i'll let you know. we might be able to land, but i'm not sure, because we might be out of gas and we might have to dive into the ocean and you're all going to get killed. how many times, jim, can you put that word to the passengers and they still get on the freaking plane again? i wouldn't get on that plane again? >> it's not the full faith and credit, it's the partial faith and credit. it's the partial faith and a lot of credit. the japanese, day don't know where to go. the chinese they don't know where to go, but chinese were really angry. and i've got to tell you, these are smart people. dismay will figure out over the next five to seven years that this is the british pound. we are the pound sterling and it's 1956. and you know what, we don't need to be with them anymore. >> okay. let me get back to you, andrew, the business party. we all grew up with that, the republican party is the party of business. my dad who was a republican said he didn't like when there was price fixing. they betrayed the good creed of american about competition and free enterprise. at their best, their republican party of free enterprise, but

not in the bag with the corporate interest, per se. does this break that alliance between big capital and the busters on the right? >> 100%. if you talk to the people in the chamber of commerce or the roundtable, they are furious with the party. they don't know what to do. there is part of them that desperately wants to try to put up other candidates against people, like a ted cruz. he's not up -- he's not going to be up anytime soon, but they desperately want to do that. but they're so worried that if they do, it will just have a backlash effect. so they're trying to figure out, where do we place our bet? because this group is not helping us. on the other side, i will tell you this, i don't think anybody in the business community has said, oh, my goodness, i'm going to become that democrat tomorrow. >> i don't know about that! i actually heard ceos say, i hope the democrats win in congress. i hope the house goes democrat. these are ceos. >> we all know wall street is packed with people that don't vote their economic interests.

there are a lot of liberals out there, jim cramer, who vote for higher tax rates a to the top, they vote -- they may vote for free trade, but basically, every time they get up in the morning, they vote against themselves economically. republicans are more consistent. they vote their economic interests. what's this going to do to shake this thing up? are we going to find a war on the republican side where they start voting against the republicans? >> look, the republicans that are in this third party, which i think is really not part of the regular party, they're anti-business. you have to be anti-business. for all the things that andrew ross sorkin said, all the things they're doing that are insane, that's how you hurt business. look, they are anti-business. they may not think they are, but they are. >> we're going to have you guys back. i think it's an ongoing discussion, this riff in the republican party. this rift may be real for a long the time coming. because i think the grassroots are really anti-establishment. they are at least in their rhetoric, populist. andrew ross sorkin of "the new york times" and cnbc, jim cramer, my good buddy from philly. we'll be right back after this.

let me finish tonight with this. tonight we mark the end of what is being called round one in the war between those who believe in the cause, that roaring, seething group of obama opposers and the rest of us. it's a war, as they see it, to win back control of the country from the "them" who supporters have voted for president obama. but it's not supposed to be this way. one battle after another between those who support the regular order of government, debate, decision, compromise, agreement, and those who want to sabotage it. i've lived and worked for 40

years in the inside of government or nearby, to positive, constructive democracy. i've written about it in my new political coming of age memoir, "tip and the gipper" i never knew that that book coming out right now would be so relevant to the times we've just been living. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. and you can now set the days without a government shutdown counter to one. the government is open. government workers finally returned to their jobs today, greeted by some high fives. some were also greeted by vice president joe biden bearing muffins. and president obama took time to talk to the nation about his agenda going forward. as for republicans, well, they tried to fe