he's the one that set the limits on how far he'd go. and to lead police on a search of his killing fields to avoid the death penalty. >> does it make you uncomfortable to have the cameras here? >> no. >> at what point during the process of taking the girl out did you know she was going to die? >> i don't know if it's halfway down the road or when i'm doing it. i don't know why i picked these seven out of all that i picked up and let loose. >> do you think you understood what you did your crimes? >> no. >> are you curious. >> oh, yeah, i don't know why i did them. >> would you like to know? >> throw it out there.

at the san joaquin county courthouse in northern california, a killer arrives for questioning. however, this is not an ordinary interrogation. this murderer is about to take part in an extraordinary interview. the man's name is roger kibbe, better known as the i-5 strangler. from 1977 until his capture in 1988, kibbe terrorized a northern part of california with his killing spree. police say he was given the nickname the i-5 strangler because of where he disposed of the bodies of his first three victims. though he doesn't look intimidating now, investigators say at one time this man was capable of overpowering women,

raping them, and killing them at will. >> this is the doctor here, the man i told you about. >> hi, mr. kibbe. can you shake hands from where you are? would it be all right to remove his handcuffs? >> sure. >> is that okay by you? >> fine. >> kibbe admits to killing seven women. the police say it's more. kibbe is willing to talk to a forensic psychiatrist if he can avoid the death penalty. despite a wealth of evidence against him, authorities are willing to offer kibbe a plea deal. at 70 years of age, it is unlikely kibbe will be executed before he dies of natural causes, and the plea deal ensures he will cooperate with authorities as they attempt to connect him to unsolved homicides. >> mr. kibbe, before we start, i want to mention a couple things to you so that it's all out on

the table for you. one is that i think you know that i'm a forensic psychiatrist. >> in 2009, roger kibbe pled guilty to six additional murders, where he was given a sentence of life without possibility of poerl. part of the plea agreement is he'd speak to us and also speak with park deets about the crimes he committed. >> i've never been involved in a case where we've filmed a thing such as this, and you haven't either, so we're exploring new territory here. but part of what i want you to understand, there's no confidentiality, which is not the way it would be if you were seeing a doctor who is trying to help you. so i'm not here to help you. i'm not here to hurt you either. i'm here to ask questions, understand, and try to shed some light on things. but that could end up helping you or hurting you. >> for more than three decades,

park deets has interviewed some of the nation's most notorious killers, such as joel rifkin and jeffrey daumer. his job is to get inside their heads, understand why they did what they did, so acts can be prevented in the future. >> my goals in the interview were both to assist law enforcement in answering some questions, and also to be able to understand his motivations and whether there were any psychiatric disturbances that played a part. >> police and dr. deets are interested in what's believed to be kibbe's first murder. it happened in 1977. kibbe admits to killing 21-year-old lou ellen buehrle, but despite the repeated efforts of investigators, her remains have never been found. authorities hope that after this interview, kibbe will be convinced to lead them to her

final resting place. >> there was a mystery that hadn't been solved, which was where was ms. buehrle's remains? he had cooperated with investigators in trying to locate the bodies and remains of other victims, but in her case, despite efforts to let them know where she was, she had never been found. >> lou allen buehrle was a secretarial student when roger kibbe tricked her into meeting him for a job interview. >> if i understand correctly, ms. burrleigh was your first homicide in 1977. >> first one. >> start with what was going on in your life that week and that day and how this came about. >> curiosity got me. i called a college in walnut creek and told the director that i was moving a company, makeup and all that crap, we're going to warehouse over here and i

would like to find somebody who can be office manager, and she wanted to know how many i wanted to look at. i said one right now. i parked behind the theater at that time. she showed up and got out of her car and got in my van and we talked for awhile. i told her i forgot my paperwork and all this other stuff, can i see you tomorrow? that's where i should have stopped. right there. i kept going. >> for park deets, this is a key moment to understand. why did kibbe keep going? what was his thinking that allowed him to follow through? to get answers, dr. deets must ask the right questions in the right order. >> now when you met her the first time, this girl, what were you thinking you might do? >> i might have been thinking, can i get away with this? >> get away with what? >> get away with her. >> what were you going to do, going to rape her? >> have sex with her, yeah,

kidnap her, rape her, have sex, kill her. >> so from the beginning you were thinking about killing her? >> no, no. that never played into my mind. not until the second day. >> on the first day, the idea was, what, get a girlfriend, date her, rape her? >> i don't know. >> kidnap her? >> maybe kidnap her, rape her. i never thought about killing. i don't believe that ever entered my mind until i had her down on the floor. she showed up on a sunday, i believe, and got into the van and we started talking. and i looked around and i told her, oh, there's my trucks now. she turned and looked. i reached up and grabbed a handful of hair on her head and pulled her down on the floor. we wrestled for awhile, until she pooped out. tied her up, and i took off.

where i was going, i had no idea. >> before his killing spree, roger kibbe was an avid skydiver with more than 4,000 jumps. once he began killing, he used parachute cords to choke several of his victims. >> one of the interesting things of kibbe's background is his experience as a skydiver. what he no doubt discovered is he could get a rush from jumping out of the plane. the difference between those that are psychopaths and those that are not, psychopaths don't experience the normal level of anxiety as something scary is about to happen. but once the scary things happen, they have a sudden rush of sensation. it's quite unfamiliar to that, so it can become highly addictive to keep doing the

thing that suddenly evokes an emotion that's generally absent. >> so the position you had her in to tie her was face down, at which point you tied her wrists together behind her back using the parachute cord, and then you rotated her body so that her face is towards the rear of the van? >> no. let me back up. what i stupidly did, i got on the freeway to go back over the martinez bridge, and it hit me, it's a toll. so to get her to shut up as i pulled out a dollar bill, i took the knife out and i put it to the back of her neck. i said, don't scream. i'm coming down on this. coming up -- park deets discovers just how detached roger kibbe is from the act of murder. >> happen to remember what the first thing was you did when you got home? >> probably went to bed.

as part of the plea deal, convicted killer roger kibbe, also known as the i-5 strangler, has agreed to tell forensic psychiatrist dr. park dietz the truth about his crimes. he continues to tell how he killed his first victim, 21-year-old lou ellen bur leigh. >> she was complaining that the ropes were too tight. i pulled over, loosened them up, and kept on driving. where i was going, i had no clue. i could have went straight, right, wherever, to find a place. i went right back up the barista where i knew how to go, i knew how to get there, and that's where it happened. >> the land surrounding lake

bariesta is rugged, unforgiving terrain. >> what do you do, put the van in park? >> i parked it on a flat area. >> pull the panties off or cut them off? >> no, i didn't cut the panties off. i cut the bra off. she turned around, over a little hill, and i followed this dirt road all the way down to the bottom of the canyon. >> you're driving you're saying? >> no, no, walking. >> walking. >> dirt road has a horseshoe shape in it and right there is a little canyon that goes up the hill. it's full of boulders, big boulders, and that's where she is today. >> and then what happens when you're standing out there? >> i strangled her. >> how'd you feel about killing her? >> i don't know. first time i ever did it. >> that's what i'm asking.

>> i don't know. i felt bad later i did it, thinking about it. but while it was happening, blank mind. don't think of anything. it's like a fog. >> was there any pleasure in the killing itself? >> no. none whatsoever. >> curiosity? >> maybe. it was an act that should never have happened, but i was too far into it. what do you do? >> i think the truth must be that at the time he had abducted her, had already raped her, there was no turning back. at that point, his decision is, which is more important, my continuing freedom, or whether she dies? >> do you regard that as a rape? >> oh, yeah. yeah, naturally. >> and would that be the first rape you ever committed? >> right. >> how'd you feel about the rape part of it?

>> how does anybody feel? good or bad, i don't know. >> some people like it and they keep doing it because it feels good. >> yeah. >> did you like it? >> i don't think so. i knew what i was doing was wrong. and if it's wrong, you can't like it. >> a lot of people like doing things they know are wrong. >> yeah, i'm one of them. >> the general theme of roger kibbe and other sexually sadistic psychopathic serial killers, because that's the category he's in, is first an unusual sexual desire. to a man who's sexually sadistic, the things that are sexiest, that are the turn-on, are control over the partner, the ability to have the partner do as he wishes, the ability to

inflict pain or humiliation or suffering, and ultimately, the ability to control whether she lives or dies. >> if you had to rate that as a sexual experience from one to ten, where ten's the best, how's it go? >> probably an eight. >> an eight? >> yeah, because it's a forced act. >> i understand she's forced to do it. i want to understand how that influences the rating. >> it takes two people to cooperate and tangle. >> uh-huh. >> that's a ten. anything below that, below eight, almost has to be on her part, i got a headache, i don't want to do it. >> so would having sex with this kidnapping victim be equivalent of pushing your wife to have sex with you even though she doesn't want to? >> right. >> that's the equivalent of sex

for her? >> probably not for her, for me. >> when they asked why you killed lou ellen burleigh, your first victim, you said to see if it can be done. what's that mean? >> see if it can be done, that's all, it's like stacking bricks. >> there are a lot of different plans a man can decide to make to see if he can do it. could be, can i get a job and hold it for six months? can i make my wife happy for a week? can i make myself save money? >> yeah. >> can i abduct and murder a woman? where's that fit in with the plans a man might make? >> i don't know why i did what i did. to see if it could be done. i've said that before. >> do you see it as a challenge?

>> uh-huh. >> so you're giving the answer like why do you climb mt. everest? >> because it's there. coming up -- investigators take roger kibbe to where he says he killed lou ellen burleigh in hopes they can find her remains more than 30 years after her death. >> what i'm mostly concerned about is that cut-away hill. that's my key. i've saved $75 in checked bag fees. [ delavane ] priority boarding is really important to us. you can just get on the plane and relax. [ julian ] having a card that doesn't charge you foreign transaction fees saves me a ton of money. [ delavane ] we can go to any country and spend money the way we would in the u.s. when i spend money on this card, i can see brazil in my future. [ anthony ] i use the explorer card to earn miles in order to go visit my family, which means a lot to me. ♪ in order to♪go visit my family, which means a lot to me. (announcer) answer the call of the grill with new friskies grillers,

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inside the san joaquin county, california, courthouse, an extraordinary interview is taking place. part of convicted murderer roger kibbe's plea deal calls for him to sit down with renowned forensic psychiatrist dr. park dietz where a tell-all confession in hopes kibbe will admit to more than murders cops know about. >> i think he's keeping, because we might find other victims. >> he's been working the roger kibbe case for more than ten years. >> when we had done our

background on roger, we found he had taken a poly graph in regards to one of the crimes he'd done in san diego and they described kibbe at that time being potentially one of the world's dangerous men ever encountered and the reason that was, was because roger kibbe had such a hatred for women. >> roger reese kibbe was born in 1941 and grew up in the national city navy projects outside san diego. kibbe tells investigators that his father, now deceased, was a naval officer who was rarely home and that as a young boy he was neglected by his mother, a woman he refers to as his dad's wife. >> she wasn't a good mother. i don't call her that. dad served 21 years in the navy, left me and my two brothers home with his wife. i told call her the "m" word, i don't have one. dad would come home from navy base late at night and 2, 3 years old, find me in the garden

in a pair of diapers. why i'm out there, i don't know. >> he recognized that she was never good to him, wasn't warm, didn't take care of him, beat him, abused him, neglected him, and that, of course, is a source of his hostility toward women. >> going through elementary school, couldn't read or write. going through junior high, couldn't read or write. middle of the senior year, i was asked to leave school because i couldn't read or write. dad went to the principal and he was told that we'd just keep pushing him along and eventually they'd get it. eventually, it never got around to me. >> what else do you remember about the way your mom treated you? >> always yelling. what did i do? there's been times i've even tried to get closer to her. maybe i needed her and i wasn't getting her. no lunch at the school, no money

to eat at the cafeteria. i told them if you ever find my yearbooks, i'm wearing t-shirts, never regular dress shirts. it was just bad all the way through. >> i want to try to understand why your mom neglected you so, because you seem to think it's important and i think it's important, too. >> i call it pretending to be a housewife. >> did she give you any serious beatings? >> i think i was beaten several times. i can remember one christmas i got up and took a canister of flour and sugar and dumped it on the living room rug and got my car from underneath the tree and making roads through it. i got beat pretty good for that. i got beat for not being home on time. >> did you have any friends as a child? >> i basically was a loner. in grade school, i started stuttering real bad. i'd open my mouth and nothing would come out. for about two years, i never said more than one word, because

it was that bad. i was a loner all through life. >> kibbe says it was during the early 1970s that he married his second wife, harriet. his failed first marriage from years ago was long over. now in his early 30s, kibbe works at a gas station and then manages a furniture store that eventually fails. kibbe tells investigators it doesn't take long for he and harriet to begin arguing. a monster in the outside world, he manages to keep his murderous actions a secret from his wife during their entire marriage. >> i had so many knives in my back because of her. she didn't cook, no breakfast, no lunch. one or two dinners i can remember. my god, i married my mother all over again. i would bring my checks home and stupidly give to her. i needed money for gas.

i needed money to eat on. it wasn't there. i got pissed off at her several times. almost beat her. >> what would a perfect wife be like, if you could design one to your specks? >> i don't think there is a perfect wife. >> besides trying to understand kibbe's past, dietz is also here to try and gather important information about how he killed. >> is he saying he threw her, he didn't, he drug her down in here. >> police say they have dozens of open cases that closely resemble the kibbe murders. if dietz can get kibbe to admit certain things about murders he committed, he may well be responsible for other unsolved cases. >> can we talk about stephanie brown now? >> yeah. >> kibbe's second victim, stephanie brown, was a 19-year-old student. this time kibbe says his rouse

was pretending to have car trouble when brown stopped to help him on the side of the highway. police are especially interested in why stephanie brown, like many of kibbe's other victims, had clothes cut from her body, something kibbe refuses to admit doing. >> you said that the claim on the records that her skirt was cut -- >> i was told her skirt was cut and they told me i cut it, and i told them, you're full of beans, i never cut it. didn't have to. i told her to take all her clothes off, she took all her clothes off, all in one piece. she was sitting there, i untied her. i told her take your shoes off, put them in the seat. take your skirt off. everything she took off, i told her to take off. they were never cut. never. >> though kibbe is quick to deny cutting the clothes of his victims, the evidence at the crime scenes tells a very different story. one that park dietz says fits

with kibbe's psychological profile. >> to cut the clothing can provide gratification to the offender without injuring the victim, so in a sense then, cutting clothing is a kinder, gentler means of exercising the sadistic impulse. >> i had told her to put your hair in a ponytail. i cut the ponytail off. is that a sign i'm pissed off at my dad's wife, am i getting even at somebody? i don't know. i tossed her clothes, some of them, in the canal. they found the scissors in the canal. they found the skirt, they said, was cut in the canal. more cop lies. i never cut that skirt. somebody else had to do it. >> when roger was 15, 16 years of age, he was going to the clotheslines and stealing women's clothing and he was bringing them back home and cutting them at that time. he will sit there and tell us about the rape he committed on the women and he will sit there

and tell us about the strangulation without any problem. when it came time for the clothes cutting, he would back off. in his mind, strangling and raping, that's okay, people do that, but cutting clothes is very strange. >> she's the only girl that i remember the name, stephanie brown. i don't remember the others. why do i remember her? i don't know. she was a bank teller. her and her girlfriend just bought a house. >> you learned all that from her? >> yeah, she told me a little bit. and i did my deed. i strangled her. and went home. it keeps getting easier and easier and easier to do it. >> what gets easier? >> killing. coming up -- park dietz delves deeper into the mind of a killer. >> at what point during the process of taking a girl out do

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two convicted killers who used forge documents to walk out a florida prison have been captured without incident saturday night at a panama city, florida, prison. two maintenance workers killed by a train part of the san francisco bay area rapid transit system. the train was being operated by nonunion staff members. i'm veronica de la cruz, now back to the program. roger kibbe, otherwise known as the i-5 strangler, continues to tell dr. park dietz everything about the murders he's committed. >> when did you cut it? >> i usually took pieces that i

had. >> it's a grueling and at times horrific process. >> what about this fella? >> no. >> that's not you? >> got a nick in his ear like i do, in the right ear. i don't recognize it. >> and part of a plea agreement in which kibbe agrees to tell the truth about his crimes to avoid the death penalty. prosecutors want kibbe to confess so that victims' families learn the truth, while giving kibbe a chance to open up about unsolved cases. >> you understand that this is a time-limited opportunity to confess to any of them without any legal risk. >> right, and i told the officer, i'm not going to confess to something i didn't do. i can't do that. >> nobody wants you to do that. >> i can't do that. >> but we would like you to confess to what you really did do. >> i've already done that. >> and you haven't got any others?

>> no others. i can stand on seven, and that's it. whether you want to believe me or not. >> at what point in the process of taking a girl out do you know she's going to die? >> i haven't figured that one out yet, because i don't know why. i don't know if it's right now, halfway down the road, or when i'm doing it. i don't know why i picked these seven out of all that i picked up and let loose. >> were there any occasions on which the strangulation itself was a turn-on for you? >> there's been times when i sat and thought about it and i come up with the idea that while i was doing it, my mind was a blank. someone took my mind.

i would look off in another direction. look up at the stars. that one in berryessa on the hill, when i was doing her, i looked up and saw the big dipper. i just stared at the big dipper while i had my hand around her throat. i don't know how long it takes to. me, it felt like it just took a few minutes. i had people tell me it takes much longer than that. >> in roger's mind, strangulation was a kinder and gentler way to kill somebody. i think it was a power trip, knowing he had in his hands the control of their life. he did tell stories where he strangled the women with his hands. he could feel the vocal chords inside their throat and he was just squeeze and feel the life go out of them. >> how many nights did you go look for a victim and never find anybody? >> two, three nights. >> so not a lot? >> no. >> usually when you found one, you wanted one?

>> i'm going to say 50/50. a lot of nights we didn't find anything. they are out there, but not what i wanted. other nights, they stuck out like a sore thumb. they are willing to get into a car. that's their mistake. >> anything she could have done to avoid being pulled into the car in the first place? >> kept on driving. kept on driving until you got off the freeway where there were stores around. way at the end of highway 12, where there's lights, where there's people. stop at a gas station. get directions, get back on the freeway, go home. >> and if someone did make the mistake of pulling over, maybe even to be a good samaritan to a motorist who's broken down, how can she avoid being dragged into the car by the likes of you? >> not good.

not good at all. >> what people should realize is that kibbe's just the tip of the iceberg. there are more kibbes out there. when we did our investigation, we were flooded with hundreds of possible leads in this case. some of these people are actually predators that are out there driving the roads among us, who live right among us. kibbe made a comment that there was never a girl that was going to get away with him once he decided to take her, so if anything else, be weary. hopefully, you're never in that situation, but i instructed my wife and my daughter, fight like hell, because once he has you in that car, they were done. coming up -- the mystery of where lou ellen burleigh was killed is finally solved. >> it was a miracle. i think i'd go for the needle in the haystack, you know, over this. all the way up your hands. any exposed skin.

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the day after his court-decreed interview with park dietz, roger kibbe is allowed out of his cell once again. investigators are hoping he will be able to find the spot where he killed lou ellen burleigh in the rural mountains surrounding lake berryessa. >> we drove to this pull out along highway 128, and on the trunk of my car i showed him the different aerial photos, what they looked like in 1977, what they looked like in '89, and he

could look at it and see how the area had changed. >> so it went like this way? >> it went this way and then -- >> but you could have hit it with a rock? >> oh, yeah. >> when you looked down on it? >> yeah. >> you described you had sex in the van. >> right. >> and then you walked up over the top of a hill. >> right. >> and then down. >> right. >> it's very, very overgrown now. >> now we had been there several times already with roger kibbe. we even put him in a helicopter, because he was a person parachuting so much, we thought maybe if we put him in a helicopter from above, he might be able to identify the location. >> that's what i'm looking for. >> we had him in 2009, so we did the same thing again. we drove up and down some roads, we got out, we walked some roads. >> though kibbe has described

this spot in great detail, once there, he becomes confused. it has been more than three decades since the killing, and nothing seems the same. >> there are no hill, it's all flat on top. there's dirt roads on top. >> see up there, does it look like it could be flat up there? >> he says he wasn't up that high. >> things could change, but he's looking for specific items, so it was going to be extremely difficult for him to find that exact location. >> 32 years, this is our fourth time up here, we'll never find that spot. he's not going to remember. we're not going to find it. >> if you stand here, you can look down into the valley. >> stand where? >> if i was standing here. >> there was no other area that matched. either he was lying about where the homicide had occurred, or he didn't recognize the spot. but i knew her remains were in that area. they had to be. >> what do you think the odds

are? >> none. we're not going to find nothing here. we're done. this is our last, definitely our last trip to this place. we're not coming back. >> do you think he's jerking you around? >> that's what we're wondering. >> i don't. i think he'd give this up if he could. >> i think he's, you know, probably trying, but in the back of my mind, it's always been, is he jerking us around on this. >> despite their efforts, investigators would not find the location on this day. it would take nearly two more years for authorities to solve the mystery. the first break came in 2010 when napa county investigator mike frei found an ally, napa county deputy mike bartlett, who was familiar with the case. >> mike bartlett was stationed at lake berryessa. he called me, i'm up here, it's off-season. there's not a lot going on. would you mind if i tried to

find her? i just thought that was exactly what we needed. >> finally, on a misty march morning in 2011, using information gleaned from the interview with park dietz and others, they find the location. >> in 1977, when this occurred, roger kibbe parked his van up just over the other side of the ridge here at the top of the hill. he led her up over the top of the ridge and down this dirt road. this dirt road, presently, is about ten, 12, 14 feet higher than it was then. so he said he walked ms. burleigh along this dirt road. he was walking behind her, and he strangled her and then he said he put her in the ravine from there. after reading the transcripts and looking at the aerial photos, i believe he murdered her right about here. >> once i got to this area and

realized this isn't the way it looked back then and that the road was approximately ten feet lower with large boulders in the area, i felt that this was it. after hiking around the area for approximately a month, i started hiking this canyon down below us here, and within about 15 minutes, i saw a white speck the size of a dime or a quarter in about six inches of water. i reached down into the water and pulled it up, and as i was pulling it up, i discovered it was actually a bone that was covered with mud and silt, and as i examined it, i realized it appeared to be a human hipbone. it was definitely a gratifying experience locating her and giving closure to her family, but without the efforts of everybody involved, it never would have happened. coming up -- park dietz gives his opinion of what drove the i-5 strangler to kill.

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when dr. park dietz completed his interviews with roger kibbe, the i-5 strangler, he tells kibbe what he believes made him a murderer. >> do you think you understood why you did your crimes? >> no. >> are you curious? >> oh, yeah. yeah. i don't know why i did them. >> do you think you have any secrets left? >> no. everything's on the table. everything. >> yet there's some mysteries, some things that don't fit, some things that don't make sense. >> my childhood, was it her, was it my upbringing? >> would you like to know? >> yeah. i'd like to know. >> happy to tell you if you want

to know. >> throw it out there. >> well, i don't think you have to be a psychiatrist to recognize that whatever happened between you and your mother has been the source of enormous anger that's generalized beyond your mother. that you've had a long-term disregard for the rules, a disrespect for authority, you've been willing to get even when you perceive that somebody wrongs you. you are willing to steal and to lie and to cheat, and those are traits you've carried with you throughout your life, i think. that set of traits in which you've got anger and a willingness to break all the rules, no moral inhibitions against doing things, is a pretty familiar set of traits to mental health professionals. what it was called at the time of your doing these things was sociopath or psychopath, and

then it got the name antisocial personality disorder. there's a piece of you missing to be able to feel what other people feel and relate to their suffering. so it doesn't bother you the way it would others. you accept all this so far? >> yeah, yeah. >> and if your only crimes were forcible rapes of women, maybe hating women is enough to explain it, but that isn't all you did. and it is a way to get even with women to attack them violently one after another, to convey to them that you think they are worthless, that they deserve no respect, the same way you think your mom treated you, but to go farther than that, abduct them, hold them captive, keep them under your control for a time, and then ultimately strangle them after one or two orgasms on your end, that's more than just anger toward women, isn't it? >> i believe so, yeah.

you're right. >> as i was telling him what my opinions were, he was nodding in agreement, and i wondered each step of the way whether he was going to stand up and walk out, whether he was going to get angry, would i see a flare, what was going to happen here. >> it's a fact that from your point of view back when you were doing this, for you to have an orgasm or sex was at least as important as whether she lived or died. >> yeah. >> she didn't matter more than that. >> i have to agree with you. >> what would make sense of the whole story of abduction, rape, captivity, binding, strangulation, homicides, is if you've also got a special sexual interest in that area. and there are a bunch of clues that you do, but you're saying

not true to every one of them. the clues that would explain this are the cop who says when you were a kid you stole some female clothes and you cut it up, you cut female clothing. and the story that you were, as a kid, found tied up with women's clothes and claimed that you'd been kidnapped and put there. the reason those would be so important if they are true is that cutting female clothing is a kind of substitute for cutting a woman. it's a nonbloody, nonviolent, actually, substitute for doing harm to a person. to cut their clothes or to cut their photograph, because those don't bleed. and nobody dies. and as ways to kill go, i can see how you might think of strangulation as not as brutal as some of the other ways you might have killed them.

>> yeah. >> beating them to death or cutting them apart. now today, when i ask you about all these crimes in detail, you don't admit to the cutting of the clothing, and you deny cutting clothes when you were a kid. these are parts of the story that you distance yourself from, and there's a couple possible reasons of why you're denying those things to me and to law enforcement. one possibility is that you don't remember. these things are too painful for you to remember and you've pushed them down. i don't really buy that, but some people would. another possibility is that these things are too shameful and too private and it's nobody's business, so you're not going to reveal that, because you don't want people to think of you as being some kind of pervert. so i think that you've got some private fantasy life that involves tying women up and

keeping them captive, and where you'd like to hurt them, but you'll make due with the substitute of cutting the clothing or cutting a ponytail, because you don't want to see yourself as that kind of person who cuts women up. that's what i think. >> all right. >> you want to ask anything else? >> no. you're doing a good job. >> in the end he said, you're doing a good job, so i think he accepted that what i said nailed it. >> roger kibbe avoided the death penalty. he is serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole at san quentin state prison near san francisco.

confederacy of hate. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. fight, fight, fight. that's the echo of this week. you hear it in every remark or grunt from the hard angry right. they call themselves the american people as if the majority that voted for president obama are an invading force of others or group of lesser americans. who should be credited with 3/5 of the vote before the civil war.