he does not have any essence inside of himself. nothing real. >> i'm going to have to leave it there. jeff gardere, thank you for your time. >> yes. >> thank you for being with us. and thank you for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. assault on a president. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. let me start tonight with this. the demolition campaign on anything obama continues its relentless run even today. with protesters out in the streets of washington denying this president's legitimacy. the goal is to erase this president's election and re-election. replacing it with a

republican-enforced shutdown. not just on getting health care to the tens of millions lying in emergency rooms today, but on everything on every progressive front. it's not an overstatement to say right now even the very notion of elected self-government is now openly and shamelessly under assault. with the president's enemies now extend is nothing less than expunging the legacy from the history books before it's even written. clarence page is with the chicago tribune. and ron reagan is a former radio talk show host and msnbc contributor. the tea party is waging a water in an effort to nullify the president's existence as an american. tease are some of the highlights from a tea party rally today in washington, d.c. which included activist larry klayman who has accused the president of being a muslim among other strange ideas. take a listen. >> we don't want to return to the days of 1776 when we had to rise up, when we had king george

iii who was far less worse than barack hussein obama. >> we've heard the litany of high crimes and misdemeanors perpetrated by the occupant in the white house. >> the birth certificate released by mr. obama and the white house is a fake, a fraud, and a lie. >> our socialist president or a president who favors muslim interest over american interest in the middle east. >> let me go to clarence. it's not just the wackos in the streets like those guys. it's not just them with this constant attack, this attack the president is not an american, et cetera. which you could laugh at, but there's an organized establishment wing to this which is to now make sure he doesn't have any powers of the presidency. we learned the power of the courts in this country. they're the one who is can pass laws like citizens united. the more money you got, the more votes you got. they won't even let him appoint judges. >> that's right.

he's had about 20 judicial executive appointments that have been blocked, some have just dropped out for trying to get confirmation or just get a vote. just in the last couple of weeks there have been three more judicial nominees who've been blocked. it's a -- senator cornyn, the republican who was asked about this, are you trying to redo the election? he said, oh, no. we just think there's too many judges on the court. well, that's the president's constitutional job and duty. >> anyway, the gop led by the cruz wing of the party has launched an unprecedented war of obstructionism against the president. they've tried to nullify the office of the presidency in three new ways. by incapacitating basic government functions, by sabotaging the president's agenda, and trying to destroy

the president's executive authority. blocked another appointment to the d.c. court of appeals on the ludicrous charge of court packing. it's the latest in the series of presidential appointments that republicans have blocked as they attempt to incapacitate the ability to run a functioning u.s. government. here was senator elizabeth warren's fantastic reaction when republicans blocked one such nominee last week. >> so far they have shut down the government, they have filibustered people he has nominated to fill out his administration, and they are now filibustering judges to block him from filling any of the vacancies with highly qualified people. we need to call out these filibusters for what they are. naked attempts to nullify the results of the last presidential election. >> ron, this is -- ron reagan, this is what's going on now. this is clear. it's a reality you can't ignore.

they're kbasically saying you can't be president, mr. obama. you can't even pick judges. we're not going to let you do that. of course we have a reason for that too. not just to make you irrelevant. we want to make sure money runs politics through united citizens type of decisions. >> well, they're going for a two-for here. this began on the eve of his inauguration, after his first inauguration where they met together in a hotel in washington, d.c. and decided whatever he's trying to do, we're going to be against it. but the two fer is you not only nullify his presidency, but you also -- you delegitimize all of it. then people get the idea the government can't do anything. then, of course, you're playing right into the republicans' hands. >> and they're doing that in affordable care as well. republicans have also tried to sabotage every major part of the

president's agenda. politico recently reported that -- due to quote, a calculated sabotage by republicans at every step. doesn't stop there, of course. john boehner has tried to derail any piece of legislation that the president supports. take a listen to this list of issues here he's trying to destroy. >> it's just one more reason why this health care law needs to be stopped now. there is no way to fix this. and frankly i'll make clear we have no intention of ever going to conference on the senate bill. this legislation is unnecessary and would provide would provide a basis for frivolous lawsuits. we should not be judged on how many laws we create. we should be judged on how many we repeal. >> there you have it. does he live under a sun lamp?

anyway, it's his taste. fair enough. anyway, he wants to go to the aca, the affordable care act. he wants to do nothing on immigration. he wants not to do anything on identity in the workplace. what's the purpose for them meeting? >> good question. >> why do they even pay? >> there's different reasons with internal disputes in the caucus. the establishment republicans want immigration reform, for example. they see their future at stake. but the tea party doesn't want it. all they want is more border security. >> let me be blunt about this. it could be there's a lot of hispanics in this country. a lot of fellow citizens. but there aren't a lot of republican districts. the deal is if you want the presidency, you need the hispanic votes. >> that's a dispute they've got to work out internally. it's a serious one. but also part of the problem

with the list anything that's got obama's name on it or something he approves is a non-starter with so much of the delegation. >> the hatred level is so personal now. ron, your dad was president. there was some reagan haters. certainly a lot of clinton haters. there were certainly roosevelt haters. they used to say that man in the white house. but this seems a new low level. the way in which people say i couldn't stand being near him. it made me sick. you hugged him, you're finished. it's really deeply personal. eni think is playing to the bad people out there. they're playing to the racists. >> they pander to racism. you wonder what the motivation is. you wonder is it just a policy dispute. is it president obama wants to desegregate schools and the republicans don't or something like that. no. if it were that, if it were that on the health care bill, you would see president obama

putting forward the affordable care act and the republicans putting forward an alternative plan, but they don't have an alternative plan. it's not that we want to do something and you want to do something else. you want to do something and we don't want to let you. period. and that's the end of it. >> it's a lot like the civil war. >> yes. >> right before we went to the worst thing that happened in our country's history. the civil war with 600,000 people killed on both sides. here's tea party republicans like ron paul out attacking the president's authority as commander in chief. this is paul at a recent rally for ken cuccinelli across the river here in virginia. but they talk about nullification. this is the stuff that martin luther king talked about about the lips dripping with nullification. here it is talking about the president's entire government. >> nullification is going to come. it's going to be a de facto nullification if it's not legalized. because pretty soon things are going to get so bad that we're just going to ignore the feds and run our own lives and our own states.

>> well, you can laugh at that and call it country talk, but this is all over now. this is virginia. then there's this "i" word out there, impeachment. here's david dewhurst, the state's lieutenant government firing up the base at a tea party event last month. >> barack obama ought to be impeached. [ applause ] not only trampling on our liberties, but what we did in benghazi is just -- it's a crime. just a crime. >> okay. so we got hillary's going to be tagged with benghazi. the president is. these are words that are just sort of ticklers out there for people. they just sort of get them. without knowing what they're talking about. what are you talking about nullification for? what are they talking about impeachment for? what's the first or tenth article? are there any? >> they'll try to make something rational out of this.

you were right the first time. this has a great red meat for the crowds, red meat for the base. but it does have responsible republicans wondering what's going on. >> pandering. i'm reading a book coming out soon, just reading about how good republicans back in the '60s backed rights even though they knew some didn't want it. i'm sorry if that bothers people. they were trying to be more moral than the last guy out there yelling right now. this new republican, i don't want to say republicans. new politician says if i can talk as badly and as evilly as the worst person in the world, i'll be safe. that's where i want to put my money. go to the furthest right, who hates obama for the worst reasons, if i can talk like that character, i'm safe in my seat. >> they pander to the lowest

common denominator in this country. they've been doing it for decades and now they're reaping the rewards with this. and it serves them right. but yes, you're absolutely right. it's an ugly kind of direction to go. >> especially it's not nice to hang out with people who aren't housebroken. thank you clarence page and ron reagan. coming up, the cheney family feud over same-sex marriage isn't going away. i love this guy, allen simpson turned up the heat and said liz cheney will do anything to win her race. also, guess what happens in states where governors support the affordable care act. it works. where they don't fight the health care navigators. it works. tonight how health care reform succeeds when republican governors aren't around to make sure it fails. and jfk's legacy tonight. he made civil rights a top domestic majority. it was the right thing to do. politically dangerous, of course, but he did it.

that's a profile in courage. finally, the daily show says what we've all been thinking. the comparisons between the health care rollout and hurricane katrina. >> hurricane katrina. i believe we've seen the damning photos of the president flying over seeing the suffering of the healthcare.gov website. >> this is "hardball," the place for politics.

time now for a quick look at politics. rand paul on fox news last night made it clear who he thinks republicans should consider as their nominee. roll the tape. >> i think they want someone outside of, you know, what's been going on. so, for example, someone like myself who's been promoting term limits. someone who says we shouldn't have decade after decade longevity up here.

i think i'm enough new here to still be perceived as an outsider should that be the choice at some time in 2016. >> hot news. rand paul supports rand paul. anyway, paul was also asked whether he would consider chris christie a true conservative or not. he said probably, if you have a loose definition of conservative. anyway, we'll be right back. la's known definitely for its traffic, congestion, for the smog. but there are a lot of people that do ride the bus. and now that the buses are running on natural gas, they don't throw out as much pollution into the air. so i feel good. i feel like i'm doing my part to help out the environment. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national.

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welcome back to "hardball." the hard right of liz cheney's campaign to unseat mike enzi has led to friction within the cheney family itself. after liz repeated over the weekend that she's opposed to same-sex marriage, her openly gay sister mary took the spat public. mary cheney and her wife heather poe accused liz of being somewhat disingenuous pointing out she celebrated their marriage last year and never expressed disapproval in person. and liz faced more criticism today from a prominent wyoming republican we like here on

"hardball." former senator al simpson who has backed enzi and publicly feuded with the cheneys over this campaign. he told msnbc, you're not even destroying frichs. you're destroying family relationships just because of this race? it's hard for all of us who know the cheneys to see the things she's doing right now to win the race. it's almost like i will do anything to win this race because i cannot ever believe there would be a breach between she and mary. elizabeth, you know this whole world of people who have to come out in a family and how they deal with each other. generally that's been to me the chief reason for the big change of heart in this country. is the family relationships of loving sisters and parents. >> yeah. although it's sort of sbresing to watch the cheneys sort of do the kardashians which is they're sort of spilling out now into the public -- >> you are cruel. i hear a laugh here. i hear joan laughing. i think that's the lowest thing you've said here. >> i don't know, but i'll tell you something. i am really proud of mary

cheney. there was a long time that the gay community felt betrayed by mary cheney has she's now feeling betrayed by her sister. >> why -- >> because she's a mom and because people were angry when she stayed on -- she was a paid staffer on the presidential campaign of george bush and her dad. george bush had come out in favor of a constitutional amendment. so it was a very awkward strained time. >> i don't know what the rules are in the gay community, but is there a sense that if you are gay, closeted or out that you owe a responsibility to gay rights. if you're a public life, you better not be gay and oppose gay rights. otherwise you're fair game. >> yeah. honestly, mary, you can see what children have done. she's got a son and a daughter. and her wife heather. you you know, the thing i worry about this entire feud is what kind of message are mary's

children getting? are they getting a message their family is less than liz's family? >> let's go back to the politics. joan, you and i can do this without being in the community, this is a political call. when she has a sibling she could say i may not be a usual conservative but i'm conservative. say i cannot betray her marital decision. and i cannot believe she'll lose many votes. but apparently she's not willing to lose two votes or one vote. >> right. that would be the humane and zpeent thing to do. you would think a lot of people in wyoming would respect her for that. but instead she decided she's going to cut this hard tea party path to mike enzi's right. she's trying to find the space. this is a space she feels like she needs to occupy. but, you know, it is tragic. it's sad to talk about a family this way. it's sad going back to the first breach was deciding to primary

mike enzi. the second breach was lynn cheney calling allen simpson a liar and ending that friendship. now this breach is with her sister. and another breach, i think you're referring to before is dick and lynn come out and kind of basically back liz and say, no, she's never supported gay marriage. and that -- what must that feel like? they really did in this particular spat take liz's side, not mary's. so there's something very disturbing. >> i'm sorry, joan. you probably saw -- there's a great scene when the young man betrays him. sells him out. saying you never say anything against the king. he said you're giving your mortal soul away for wales? i mean, she's giving it up for wyoming. and she's -- how could she go to her sister two weeks later and say you know i had to do it? >> republicans admire when people stick up for their

family. that's fundamental. >> she doesn't think so. >> i know. but you know what? any voter can get over a disagreement. what they can't get over is a character flaw. and to not stand up for her sister, for mary cheney not to understand her sister's position until the last day or two is ridiculous. >> responding to her sister's criticism, liz cheney told "the new york times" quote, i love my sister and her family and have always tried to be compassionate toward them. i believe that is the christian way to behave. there's the old cover. some took issue with her language. here was "new york times" columnist frank bruni. he said what a curious vocabulary. it was as if they were talking about some charity case. i think compassionate conservatism is people who have a problem in who they are. i don't think gay people were suffering as a group. we are what god made us. your thoughts?

>> it's what you say about an ailing child or a sick pet. not about another adult, your sibling, who is a whole complete, you know, person and mother and adult. she doesn't need compassion. we don't need liz cheney's compassion. >> it does seem odd. is she playing to the old thinking that -- >> yes. >> the feeling of feel for me too. i have a gay sister. it's appealing to somebody 75 years old in wyoming. probably a nice old cow poke who's still living in the '50s. >> and citing christianity. so say cris inciting christianity as if that's it. they don't like her because they think she's a carpet bagger,

frankly. they think she should run in virginia where she's lived most of the time. so that's the first strike. they like mike enzi. she's down something like 50-something points in the last poll. so she's way behind as it is. and i don't see how this helps her. you're right. it is a character issue. it's not a political issue at this point. >> next time we'll talk about carpet bagging. we're more comfortable there. let me tell you, she keeps saying my roots are in wyoming. but her feet have been in virginia. thank you for this. i think it's a bit of fun because it's ridiculous. thank you. great to have you back. up next, the toronto mayor rob ford takes his don't blame me i was drunk out of my mind excuse. that's what you do these days. if you were gay you'd say i was drunk that night. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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back to "hardball." time for the sideshow. i thought we just had one. anyway, republicans hoping to dramatize the rocky health care rollout have taken to comparing the rollout to hurricane katrina. but as jon stewart pointed out, it's not just inaccurate, it's ironic. >> hurricane katrina. yes, i believe we've all seen the damning photos of the presidential flyover surveying the human suffering of the healthcare.gov website. comparing responsibility during hurricane katrina, the death of hundreds of people, the displacement of hundreds of thousands people to a [ bleep ] website is offensive. apparently to the people who were in charge during hurricane katrina. >> the white house couldn't do anything with the mayor objecting. we had a governor of louisiana that was a challenge to work

with. >> that's president bush's chief of staff saying it's not fair to president bush to compare it to katrina. because bush didn't get the cooperation. you know, the way obama gets it now. >> that is so great. >> it's apparent that michele bachmann didn't get it these days. she's joined a chorus saying i told you so. but as stephen colbert said last night, it may have gone to her head. >> we hate to say we told you so, we look like geniuses now. >> she's right. the obama care rollout is so bad that by comparison, michele bachmann is a genius. and if a self-certified genius like bachman was right about obama care, she must have been right about everything. >> the very founders who wrote those documents worked tirelessly until slavery was no more. in the united states.

>> what else you got, einstein? >> there isn't even one study that can be produced that shows that carbon dioxide is a harmful gas. >> there's no match between them. these guys, jon stewart and stephen colbert against those guys with no match. up next, mayor of toronto, it's hard to take him seriously. his tv show was canceled already. then there was this defensive interview on the "today" show this morning. take a look at how he tried to turn the tables on nbc's matt lauer. >> say you had gone out drinking or you were drunk and say something happened to your family -- >> the lives of a million people don't land on my decisions. >> hold on. say your son or daughter just got killed in an accident, are

you going to be able to handle that? >> yao got taxpayers depending on you. >> i take personality on them too. >> when it comes to comic relief, rob ford is the gift that keeps on giving. the latest viral he has to capitalize on his newfound infamy is on the volvo commercial of jean-claude van damme splitting between two trucks. those who know the ad know it's painful to watch. but in this case it's a hilarious site to behold. >> i stand here before you. what you see is a body crafted to perfection. a pair of legs engineered to defy the laws of physics, a mind-set.

>> so what happens? anyway, up next, don't look now, but the new health care law is working wherever people aren't trying to sabotage. a lot of republicans are doing that. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. whether you're just starting your 401(k) or you are ready for retirement, we'll help you get there. customer erin swenson ordebut they didn't fit.line customer's not happy, i'm not happy. sales go down, i'm not happy. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer.

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i'm milissa rehberger. george zimmerman has been released from jail on $9,000 bail. he was charged after allegedly pointing a shotgun at his girlfriend. zimmerman denies the allegations. virginia state senator deeds is in critical condition after stabbing at home. and florida congressman trey ragel says he's seeking treatment after being charged with cocaine possession. back to "hardball." ♪

welcome back to "hardball." from all the negative coverage of the health care rollout, you'd think it had been a disaster from coast to coast. but there are more than a few health care success stories out there emerging in states around the country. where republicans or at least vicious republicans aren't working to sabotage the law. an article headlined health care plan enrollment surges in some states after rocky rollout. the california program is having, quote, incredible momentum in enrollment. washington state is, quote, on track to exceed october enrollment. in minnesota, enrollment triple rate at first half. in kentucky whose democratic government we've had on the program is out performing enrollment estimates. and in connecticut, a survey of

those who used the state exchange showed a satisfaction level of 96.5%. what do these states have in common b? for starters, they all set up their own health care exchanges which was how the affordable care act was supposed to work in the first place. they also expanded medicaid coverage as they were supposed to. perhaps the most important point, they all have democratic governors trying to make it work. not trying to block a program that is the law of the land. joining me now is senator chris murphy of connecticut who represents residents where it's working. thanks for coming on. i would love you to give us a sense, a feel for the state of connecticut and why it would be the kind of place and is the kind of place where a new program that might be sophisticated would work. >> we made a decision early on to actually implement this law and try to make sure that residents could use it. so we hired a topnotch administrator to run the

program. we got it running early. we set up store fronts that are open so people can come in off the street and see people that can assist them in enrollment. and we actually went about the business of connecting people with a valuable resource. and guess what. people are lining up to the streets to sign up for this new law. i wind to an enrollment center and at sock, there was a line out the door. that's why connecticut is way ahead of the estimates. we signed up about 15% of the people we want to sign up over the scope of the program. when you don't undermine a law and try to make it work, the product sells. >> i was thinking you could almost have kept a diary of your efforts to make it work and put in reverse each of the steps to make it work and say this is how you can undermine the thing. >> the question is on the states that use the federal exchange, once the technology is up to

snuff, are people going to buy the product? i think the answer is unequivocally yes. when you access it in states, people are buying it. even in kexz some of the people who have had their policies canceled and were legitimately angry about that are coming in finding they have more affordable options. i know that once it's up and running people in those states are going to have the same experience that people in connecticut have had. notwithstanding the efforts to try to undermine it. >> i'm going to ask you to make a call now. do you believe the standards for a decent health care policy were fair or they were overly politically correct. were they fair? in other words did they decide this was a no mf good policy opposed to a good policy. that most people would think extreme. was it fair in what was done setting the standards? >> i absolutely think it was fair. it was fiscally responsible because the problem is when people walked into the hospital and found out they didn't have

coverage for maternity not only was that a raw deal for them, but we all picked up the cost because that person didn't have money squirrelled away to pay for those costs. it got put onto the taxpayers. the reason we set a minimum floor despite how controversial it is is because it's going to safe the system money in the long run. i get there's disruption. but it's disruption we needed and a disruption that will result in less money being spent in the long run. >> thank you so much. chris murphy of connecticut where things are working well. whenever i talk about the affordable care act, i make a point of calling it just that and not obama care. it seems like it might be catching on. politico magazine today reports that, quote, the president didn't say obama care once during his news conference last week. when he referred to the affordable care act a dozen times. and white house talking points distributed to democrats and obtained by politico repeatedly

referred to the affordable care act and suggested sound bites. not obama care. this is a shift, of course, from the campaign trail when president obama in 2012 embraced the term. >> part of the affordable care act, health care reform also known as obama care. by the way, you know what? let me tell you, i have no problem with folks saying obama cares. i do care. >> earlier this month in new orleans, the president joked that the term obama care is often used derisively by his opponents and soon they may want to call it something else. here he is. >> i know health care is controversial, so you know, there's only going to be so much support we get on that on a bipartisan basis until it's working really well. then they're going to stop calling it obama care. they're going to call it something else. >> there's a voice of optimism. sam stein, of course, from "the

huffington post." put it together what we're seeing here tonight. we showed states where it's working. because you have a cooperative governor, people who know what they're doing. maybe the president should be taking advice from these guys. how does it stand right now on november 19th, you know, about 11 days before we're supposed to get the first report card on this thing? >> it's tight. there's 11 days left until this self-imposed deadline where they say the vast majority of the users of the federal website would have a workable experience. what we know from the center of medicaid services is they have made it about 2/3 of the way through the bugs they need to get rid of. there are tech glitches still popping up. more people are having better experiences day in and day out. but it is going to be tight and we're running up against that december 15th deadline after which if you don't purchase coverage by then, you're not

going to be insured. >> if you were in a boxing match, would you punch the name obama or affordable care? it seems that's where he's weak. it seems like the president's got in a position where his name has become mud. because of this constant assault on him. you know, he's a muslim, he's from some other country, he's a liar, blah blah blah. and the villainy attached to that is so much to say my name's not a great brand, i better talk about the program now. >> i talked to the polling guy at "huffington post" and he said people are reflexively against anything with the name obama in it. from a pr standpoint, it makes sense. there's polls out there where in the same poll do you support obama care or the affordable care act and by and large, the affordable care act polls better than obama care even though it's the same thing. you know, this strategic shift

makes sense, i guess from a pr standpoint for them. >> let's talk about what the president said and follow his thinks. it was amazing for him to come out last week. he's accused of being aloof. sometimes he is. i thought he was very apologetic last week when he said it's my fault, blame me. not anybody else. blame me. and then i thought it's interesting he's talking about now with his wall street journal meeting, saying they need to remarket and rebrand. how do you rebrand something with your name on it? what do you do? it's fascinating he's thinking about a rebranding campaign at this point. >> well, it's critical right now. you hit the nail on the head. how do you rebrand something that's this tarnished? and what's remarkable is they had anticipated this would be functioning october 1st. then hhs would pour in a lot of ad money. but more importantly private insurers who are looking at it

would pour in a billion in ad money. now all of that ad money has been pushed back. none of the private insurers are advertisings for this right now. hhs have run ads, but not in as much bulk as anticipated. they have to wait until the exchange works before they advertise the exchange. >> this may sound too idealistic for the times. i think the president and his people all across the country ought to say this, including like schumer who are smart people. it's an admirable thing to do to sign up for your own insurance. you'll be a good american. not these flimsy kind of things that will improve your life in some ridiculous way. but the idea it's good for the country to do this. you're a good person if you do this. thank you, sam stein. up next, how jack kennedy risked southern votes and his political career for civil rights. you got to believe it. this is "hardball," the place for politics. life's an adventure when you're with her.

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today the supreme court agreed and the anti-abortion law remains in place. talk about undue burden. we'll be right back. you start at point "a."

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we're back. when president kennedy ran for president in 1960, he was careful not to talk too much about -- the bet paid off in kennedy's narrow victory managed to beat vice president -- assaulted by white mobs and bull counter out there said -- white americans were awakened to the horrific racial injustice of the south.

kennedy faced with a tough political and more decision made a choice. he presented the most sweeping civil rights legislation. president kennedy flew to texas to heal a rift down there. the trip would cost kennedy his life. joining me to discuss jack kennedy's -- and kathleen kennedy town send is the former lieutenant governor of maryland and is t-- have you ever gottena sense of when your father's passion and became very real for civil rights grew up. when did he become a sure fighter crusader for civil rights? >> i would say when he was in the justice department and he would make sure that for instance, when we went to new

york, and we would go to harlem, he would make sure that we would go to washington, d.c. i remember him driving me down in washington one day, we were going to open a pool and he would say, kathleen, see the kids living in those houses, those tiny, tiny houses, they're your age, they have the same dreams as you, they have the same hopes as you, they would like to ride on a swing, they would like to ride on a pony, they would like to have everything you have, kathleen, you're very luck briy and you h to remember everything you share with those kids. so he was very visceral in his understanding of civil rights. obviously that's what he did with me, his daughter, but at the dinner table he would talk about how difficult it was to deal with the southerners. when my uncle john kennedy and my father were growing up, they had -- they thought that

thaddeus stevens was too far to the left. and they came to understand just how difficult it was to deal with those southerners. and i mean, i remember often p they would just talk about how are we going to get that civil rights legislation through the southern power and how difficult and tough it really was. >> carl, i remember reading that kennedy was seen as a moderate, i remember knowing this back before he ran for president, he was not a very far out guy like hubert humphrey for example. >> he underlined in his early years as president with some of the judicial appointments he made. he appointed in mississippi harold cox, the -- when the ole miss desegregation case came up. >> how do you explain one of the most miraculous speeches we have ever heard in our lives w that

wonderful speech on national television, in the middle of all the birmingham hell, he said that civil rights as is old as the constitution, a and everyone american saw it and was thrilled by it. where did that come from? >> it came from him and from a judgment of the situation, because the situation in 1963 was a lot different from what it was in 1960, we had freedom writers, we had bull connor and that sort or thing. you know, in a way, there's a parallel to vietnam. the people who think he would have gotten out of vietnam after the elections say that he could assess things and be, you know, and come to a decision that was not necessarily where he had been. i think the same thing with civil rights, you realize this is the way he had to go. >> the bobby keng did changing is the most amazing part of his life to me. and you were there of course.

the mature ratioationmaturation understanding, your dad kept learning. >> as you know, chris, when he was at the university of virginia, he had ralph bunch who was their first black head of the u.n. to his house and my mother describes how at that time there was no place for ralph bunch to stay in charlottesville, west virginia before. he stayed with my mother and my father and all night long my mother remembers hearing people screaming at them and throwing rocks. but they hadn't been much involved. and when my father kept having to deal with first of all the freedom writers themselves and listening to their stories when we saw that the police wouldn't even protect his own friend, john siegenthaler, let him be beaten up and when he saw how terrible the pain and the violence was against

african-americans, he became disgusted with the whole situation and said we have got to change. and as you know, on the night that president kennedy gave that extraordinary speech, medgar evers was killed. and this was a real fight and were we able to make sure that it was going to be justice for all. the other thing i would say, chris, and charlene hunter -- >> we have got to go, kathleen, we loved having you here. we'll be right back. #

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. that's "hardball" for now, thanks for being with us, all in with chris hayes starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. as republicans stand in obstruction of yet another president obama judicial nominee today, senate majority leader harry reid is strongly hinting he is are ready to push the button. ready to do the one thing he can do, the thing he could have done all along to end this epidemic of republican filibusters. harry reid today says he's actively considering the nuclear option. >> president and democratic senators are pondering the nuclear option. >> people are angry, they're talking about the nuclear option. >> republicans continue their