there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. the balance of power between heckler and president. at the start of this first sunday in december, vet first day in december, in fact, we are mulling over the question of when things begin and how they will end. president obama redoubling his efforts this week to keep immigration reform alive, what's the path forward? is there a path soared in with the clock ticking down on the u.s. war in afghanistan, president hamid karzai has been refusing to sign the security deal that would keep some american troop notice region. could he be sending a message to the taliban? also, the republican party says

it is making yet another effort to reach out to minority voters, to urban voters and they have asked rand paul to take the lead. is the gop really committed to reaching out? finally, if you saw yesterday's show, you know i tried to learn how to cook a turkey. the process was tricky or maybe just disgusting. we didn't have time to finish it on the air. i promised to show you today how it all turned out and i'm going to in a little bit. i hope your own thanksgiving dinners this week went a lot smoother than that, even if conversations did turn to politics. our panel will weigh in with their own experiences this week on the third rail of family get-togethe get-togethers. first, for american presidents, there have been views two ways to face down hecklers, either put them in their place or see to it that they are escorted out or maybe you put them in their place and then you have them kicked out so maybe there are three ways. in his very last rally if the 1980 presidential campaign this is what happened when a persistent heckler got under the skin of ronald reagan.

>> i went out to michigan, there are cities in michigan -- there are cities in michigan -- oh, shut up. [ cheers ] >> we saw more of the put them in their place approach from bill clinton who had an extensive back and forth with an aids activist at a new york city fundraiser 1992. >> this is not bean bag this is life and death. and we've got to go -- that's not true. >> you know it's true. >> i have treated you and all the people who have interrupted my ral bliss a hell of a lot more respect than you've treated me and it's time you started thinking about that. >> and in the days before he was dodging airborne shoes, george w. bush was dodging verbal attacks from protesters and taking the two-pronged heckler

approach. >> i'm thrilled to be here at monticello. i've never been here before. to my fellow citizens, we believe in free speech in the united states of america. >> yes, that was a little awkward there although doesn't say anywhere in the constitution that a president has to listen to everything that every heckler decides to say at any given moment. barack obama, who has faced enormous crowds and tough critics since his first days on the national scene, though, has had a different approach to hecklers. after all, his entire presidency has been marked by opposition. he has even been taunted by members of congress. >> the reforms -- the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

>> lie. >> it's not true. >> that kind of heckling by his political opposition has extended to obama's nominees for administration posts in the federal courts very which have been derailed by record number of is senate filibusters. for years, obama has been birtd republicans non-stop, all-out opposition his health care legislation, health care law. when the news broke last week the administration struck a six-month deal to freeze iran's nuclear program, members over congress began blasting the deal even before the details were announced. through it all, obama has tried to extend an olive branch to his critics in congress, of the tonight dismay of liberals. soliciting republican's input and searching for compromise. he has used the same conciliatory approach with the passionate activists who have lashed out at him at his public appearances. >> as any middle class family will tell you, we are not -- i hear ya.

i got ya. no, no, no, that's fine. wait, wait, wait, wait. we're okay. we're oh can i just say that as hecklers go, that young ladyselves are polite. she was. you know she brought up an issue of importance and that's part of what america is about. >> in israel, obama embraced a heckler of a reminder of the treatment he gets back home. >> ties between our countries, by live your future is bound to ours. this was part of the debate we talked about. this is good. i have to say we actually arranged for that because it made me feel at home. >> so it wasn't surprising when obama engaged in undocumented

university of california graduate from south korea who interrupted the president's immigration speech in san francisco this past monday. >> and most importantly, we will live -- most importantly, we will live up -- most importantly, we will will live up to our character as a nation. >> i need your help there are thousands of undocumented immigrants. >> that's exactly what we are talking but here. >> -- every single day. mr. president, please use your executive orderer to halt deportation of all 11.5 undocumented immigrants in this country right now. we agree that we need to pass reform at the same time. we -- you have the power to stop deportation for all. >> actually i i don't. and that's why we're here. >> i need your help. >> stop deportation! >> stop deportation! >> what i'd like to do -- don't worry about it, guys. okay. let me finish.

how about -- these guys don't need to go let me finish. no, no, no -- >> it might seem like a setback, an embarrassing moment for obama and his advance team who had given the young heckler, a featured spot on stage with the president. but the obama administration is depending on folks like him to push immigration reform over the finish line. obama can make speeches until he is blue in the face but house republicans who are standing in the way of legislation don't listen to him and are probably never going to listen to him. they have no electoral incentive to take their cues from a democratic president. the power really lie notice hands of the millions of activists around the country, impassioned constituents who can turn up the heat on pivotal republican manies of congress. on friday, president obama turned to that constituency again by visiting with a group of protesters who are fasting on behalf of immigration reform. as it is right now, immigration reform's chances of passing this congress are slim. greg sergeant recently noted,

john boehner has put it on life support, not dead yet but it's not running a five-mile turkey trot any time soon either. advocates are doing the long, hard work of changing the cal cue louse among house republicans who represent mostly white, conservative, republican-friendly districts. what happens to immigration reform? does it stall for years or will the states become the key movers of policy, making life a little better for undocumented immigrants? the new jersey legislature just sent chris crist taye bill for the second time that would allow in-state tuition for undocumented immigrants, something 16 straits already enacted. this comes after ten states and the district of columbia have passed legislation giving driver licenses to undocumented immigrants. more and more states start treat egg the 11 million undocumented ingrants like other residents, will congress be compelled to poll flow is there anyone to heckle them into action? we want to bring in aaron blake, he's national politics reporter at the "washington post," msnbc

contributor, perry bacon jr., contributor at grio.com, harry hirshberg from the new yorker and susan del percio, republican strategist who served in rudy giuliani administration. thanks, everyone, for being here this morning. there's a couple different direction i want to go with it. i want to pick up in a little bit that exchange that obama had with the heckler this week and this back and forth about what the president himself maybe can, maybe can't do i want to start with where we always start conversations about immigration that is what is going on in the house right now, in the republican-controlled house, because we knee a comprehensive immigration reform bill that would allow a path to citizenship passed the senate this summer there were a number of republicans, think 15 republicans who signed onto that. it is now stalled in house. what is the status right now, aaron? what do we know about the phone information any movement in the house in the mention few months on comprehensive immigration reform? >> right now, debate seems to be about whether or not it's really dead or not. i think comprehensive

immigration reform for all intent and purposes is probably done for this congress. yet is whether the house can pass something smaller. we are talking about something lining the lines of a dream act, some kind of immigration enforcement measures, maybe they do something, you know, there's a bill where they are talking about potentially having a path to legalization contingent upon border security measures some, these are much lower levels of legislation than the bill that was passed in the senate and it's still not even clear that these bills would be acceptable to senate democrats and president obama and whether or not they can actually even pass in the house at this point. so, right now the ball is really in the house court as far as what they can try to pass and whether that will be good enough going forward. >> well, this was the president this past monday. the word they put thought is piecemeal, comp mean sive bill in the senate and house republicans saying, well we don't want to do a big bill, maybe we can do piecemeal things, a little of that little of that president obama addressed the possibility of a

piecemeal approach in san francisco monday and he is open to it. let's play that. >> the good news is, just this past week, speaker boehner said that he is hopeful we can make progress on the immigration reform. and that is good news. and i think there are a number of other house republicans who with also want to get this done. some of them are hesitant to do it in one big bill, like the senate did. when it is thanksgiving, we can car that have bird into multiple pieces. >> so, perry, like the fear i think of immigration reform advocates, you start talk about carving the bird into multiple pieces is that sort of the -- if we keep this metaphor going, easi easie easier-to-digest pieces will be he embraced by republicans but the tougher stuff, path to citizenship that goes away, you won't, by cutting it up like that you will only get the easy stuff through and the hard stuff that needs to be bound together you will never get through. >> we are talking a bit by bit bill that doesn't include a path to citizenship in some way or

includes some kind of -- the question what is amnesty and how does it define the republicans and can they support a bill that has a path to citizenship in it and can president obama sign a bill that doesn't? i think whether it is big or small, the bill itself, same core question for six years path to citizenship still exist on some levels, republicans want to move on that issue, doesn't matter how the bill is written unless -- hard to imagine obama would sign something less than that he might sign some version of the dream act, i don't think he goes much beyond that without some passage being in there and hard to see where the house republican votes are, particularly. not like the debt ceiling forcing the action, date by certain the republicans can stall this as long as, until 29015, 2016 election, they may choose to do that >> another dhoent have all the votes and need democrats, the president is going to have to appeal to the democrats to get some of this, the piecemeal work, to appeal to them to get them on board for this.

a difficult situation. they want to go in with everything. to get them to agree to everything piecemeal may be more difficult. >> how bottom line is the path to citizenship? 'cause you have some republicans who talk about legal status, not citizenship. how bottom line do you think path to citizenship should be coming out of this? >> i don't think that's part of the bottom line. i think that's one of the things that gets thrown overboard. the problem with doing it piecemeal, then you have got separate bills and you are going to be asking republicans to vote for something that -- something like a dream act, which they don't like either. and you are asking democrats to vote for something that's just enforcement with no guarantee that you are going to end up with what the president has said he requires, which you is cut the bird up but then you serve every piece of t so if you're only -- the whole reason for having comprehensive bills is you put in stuff that one side doesn't like, you put in stuff

the other side doesn't like and then they can vote for it because they are voting for something they like. >> you all swallow the whole bird together to complete them in the fact that the president is talking this way now the fact that he is sort of showing an openness to the piecemeal approach sort of tells us something, i think, about the political condition of this in washington right now. >> right. it also points to the fact that there's strong support from the business community. if we look at the alabama first congressional special election where the business community beat the more tea party conservative, they are putting a lot of pressure. in the last six months, we have seen south carolina, arkansas, alabama, not to mention new york, new jersey, all of these states put a big pressure, there's state chambers of commerce on their congressional delegation. and can start to change things, as especially primaries come up within some of these red states i. >> this remains, let's play a clip here of -- you may have seen they a little tension the last few weeks, john boehner was approached at a diner in washington by some young -- i

think 13-year-old activists for immigration reform, this was the exchange they had with him. >> well, i'm trying to find somebody somebody to get this thing done. [ inaudible ] >> so we can count on your vote for immigration reform? >> i don't know if you can hear that too well, but he is basically saying, he is basically saying i'm uncomfortable being in this situation. what he is trying to tell them is i'm trying, i'm trying, i'm trying to. susan, you talk about the business community being behind this, but still dealing with the republican party, you look at the tea party base of the republican party, any kind of vote for any kind of immigration reform for the average republican member of congress who does not represent a swing district is stale politically dangerous vote for them to take. >> i'm not sure the dream act, for most house republicans, no legislation passing at all is perfectly good for them.

the key thing is the incentives are not aligned properly. house republicans have very little incentive to vote for this chris christie, paul ryan, candidates in 12016 like this to move, i don't think the dynamics -- hard to see. think john boehner secretly is for this being done tomorrow. he's a pretty business-like republican. that said you can not sure where the incentive for the other members r if you look at most districts, the country is about -- overall 37% of the people in the country overall are non-white. in most republican districts, that number is way below 20% there fore, you have a conservative base. for those republicans, not a lot of reasons to say vote for this and i might get -- challenge is going to come from the right, not from the chamber of commerce candidate. not going to win. >> i have a slightly different take on. this i think people talk about the were interest of house republicans in 2014 versus presidential candidates in 2016. i don't think that presidential candidates in 2016, i don't think this is necessarily an immediate thing for them. i think this is much more of a long-term thing for the

republican party, which makes it that much more difficult for them to get their people on board. i don't see people like chris christie and paul ryan necessarily rounding up votes and saying we need this done right now because they know it doesn't necessarily affect them in 2016. republicans, you know, they lost in 2012, on a losing streak right now. they can still win in 2016 regardless of what happens with this immigration debate. where it starts becoming a big problem is 2020, 2024 and those future elections when? a much bigger portion of the electorate. >> that way it is like climate change. you know, everybody knows we are headed for long-term disaster, long-term utter cat tass trough find the republican party is the same way, but to do the things now that aren't going to give that immediate reward it is just impossible. >> only when they wake up in 2024 and said i wish in 2014 -- and it's too -- well, i want to pick up after the break that the heckling that president obama's endured this week, the charge behind that heck ling was you, personally, are not doing

enough. forget about the republican congress. let's look at the question of is there anything more that president obama can be doing, forget the republican congress. we will do that after this. as a business owner, i'm constantly putting out fires. so i deserve a small business credit card with amazing rewards. with the spark cash card from capital one, i get 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. i break my back around here. finally someone's recognizing me with unlimited rewards! meetings start at 11, cindy. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one. choose 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day.

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so, we played clips from that obama speech in san francisco this week the heckler on stage with him, so the advance team, i guess, brought out there to support him ends up heck ling him in the middle of the speech. nice work there, guys. but he is basically saying stop deport tearings, stop deportations. the response from obama is, well to do that i need congress to work with me, i need to you put pressure on republicans in congress to get comprehensive immigration reform through. the reply to that from some immigration reform advocates is, wait a minute, you look at the deferred action program that president obama silenced, basically an executive orderer, wasn't technically an executive orderer, has essentially

prosecutorial discretion, he is curb radically, if you will, by an order, by a presidentialed or, the number of deportations. is that something that's feasible. should there be more heat on president obama to do something like that? >> the president was right in saying that he does not have the power to stop 11.5 million deportations, to give status to all the undocumented aliens in this country. he has does not have that power. it is a little bit like the marijuana controversy, where the president has lowered the priority of going after marijuana possession and that sort of thing to allow those experiments in states to go forward. he cannot, however, say, he cannot, however, put out an executive orderer saying, okay, everybody can smoke pot and can't put out an executive orderer completely eliminating those deport tearings. he can brobly go further than he has, but not all that much further. so the fantasy that so many

people have, that the president's power is unlimited and everything depends on the president, keeps cropping up, and this is just another instance of it. >> i guess what it is the number of deportations in 2012, over 400,000, it is up radically over the last decade, some people long at that and say that there's sort of a political element in it from theed a minute station in that they want to be able to say, hey, look, we are fighting this as aggressively as we can, you can trust us, you know, republicans who think we are going to give amnesty or something like that the flip side i have heard from some immigration advocates if you were to do the opposite, not solve the problem but say we are going to radically curb those deportations, pending action from congress. hey, congress, if you want those numbers back up, you have to take angst, tough make this part of -- could he a i ppply pressun congress that way? >> coker assume he could choose not to the white house uses a pressure point, deportation policy still exists, one reason

to force congress to change it. he doesn't want to rule over, doesn't want to take control no pressure on the republicans to compromise with him. i don't think woe ever go that not just for -- there probable slay substantive way he could stop all immigrations, he doesn't want to do that that is not politically help envelope terms of pushing forward an immigration bill. so the heckler wasn't wrong, i don't think h the heckler had some substantive points to make. the president would only do that for political reasons. >> don't stay like it's bad thing. >> yes. >> a bad thing. >> but again, i don't think the heckler did any good for the president. i mean, that would -- him bringing -- the way he brought up that issue in that manner does not help him win his agenda that he needs get forward. i mean, he doesn't -- he can't have, you know, i'm just gonna stop deportation policy. like harry said you can just north going to work politically. on top of that when those kind of instances happen, people start to recoil, elected official, the way it plays,

especially for republicans in those states who don't have to worry about it, there's a recoil to that and they just kind of dig in a little deeper. >> that is the question, too if it's directed at president obama, it's one thing f that kind of heck ling is directed at republicans or the message behind republicans is directed at republicans is that going to shake them in anyway, having a realtime experiment play now the new jersey now, with chris christie. we will talk about that right after this. ♪ ♪ through 12 blizzards blowing ♪ 8 front yards blinding ♪ 6 snowballs flying ♪ 5 packages addressed by toddlers ♪ ♪ that's a q ♪ 4 lightning bolts ♪ 3 creepy gnomes ♪ 2 angry geese ♪ and a giant blow-up snowman ♪ that kind of freaks me out [ beep ] [ female announcer ] no one delivers the holidays like the u.s. postal service. priority mail flat rate is more reliable than ever. and with improved tracking up to 11 scans, you can even watch us get it there. ♪ losing thrusters. i need more power. give me more power!

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>> chris christie wants to run for president in 2016, touting the fact he won 51% of the latino vote getting re-elected n that re-election campaign, he said he would sign and support his governor, a bill working through the legislature now that would allow in-state tuition for undocumented children. now he is saying in an interview, wait a minute, read the fine print. what's going on here? >> basically, he got a bill. he asked the state legislature to send it back to him with some changes to make it a little bit less far reaching than it is right now. they declined to make those changes. they set sent in the bill as it was and dared him to sign it or veto it knowing he had promised during the campaign he would sign something similar to that the ball is in his court now and live up to his promise in the minds of some or it is not exactly what i want and not going to sign it. >> the change he is talking becomize understand it, it basically would allow children from out of state who attend

boarding school, undocumented children from out of state who attend new jersey boarding school it would also make them eligible for in-state to you wichlgs he is saying this is the reason it goes too far? >> another element i think people have missed a little bit. it allows for undocumented children to afor financial aid when they are attending college this is something, you talk about how 16 states awill you for in-state tuition. only three states allow them to apply for financial aid. another aspect of it s a more far-reaching bill than most of the other states have, those fine details are lost on a lot of people, especially immigration advocates who say you promised us, now make good on that promise. >> no great mystery to what's going on here, i mean, he is trying to have it both ways. he wants to -- now that he is switching to running for president, having been re-elected overwhelmingly for governor, he doesn't want to sign a bill -- even if the bill didn't contain those things, it would be deeply damaging to him

to sign it in the republican primaries, social grasping at these little excuses in a way to say on the one hand to say to hispanics, i'm with you and to say to the tea party, i'm with you. [ overlapping speakers ] >> ask for? i think we have signed it. i don't think we have ignored it, as just been suggested. but these nuances, he does bring up a valid point because what happens is, and new york city san example of it in many ways, of people coming in state. you end up not being able to afford -- when you become a megastate for anything, like new york city, it can be for homelessness, for example, you start creating budgets that are unsustainable. >> if the idea to offer in-state to you, which you are offering theoretically incentive for what you are talking about. let's look at it this way, the bill that let's say he has dreamed of, now talking about if crist test was presented with that and he signed it, what happens to him into the republican party heading into

2016? is this a guy given amnesty what they say? >> certainly could be damaging, the way he could play it especially early on, if he can do it in the next six months, for example, he can easily recover from that. and everyone knows the one thing about chris christie, he says what he means and he mean what is he says and will be something they will be willing to consider. >> do people know that now, because it sounds like he is saying two different things here. >> certainly look at him as an in your face, like this is what i'm thinking, i'm not gonna dance around the issues. >> right. reputation. >> he will be criticized for amnesty, we already know that rick perry you was for in-state tuition, was krit sized intensely by mitt romney in 2012. so we know there is going to be a problem for him. he told the "new york times" they are going to sign a bill like the bill he originally sent. he is going to stay consistent, my impression. the bill comes as he wrote it only, it probably won't, if he does, i think a flip-flop at this point is unhelpful and i think he is going to try to avoid a direct flip-flop unless he can really explain it pretty

well. i think he is aware that his reputation as a frank person and he campaigned all over the state saying he was for this bill it would not be helpful, again, at this point, because probably criticized him for flip-flopping and having the wrong position. there is the flip-flopping and the fact that he does not ever have to run in new jersey again and now thinking about iowa and south carolina, very different electorates there i want to thank the "washington post" aaron blake, susan del percio, republican strategist. will our presence in afghanistan have an end date, should have an end date? could it have an end date? all depends on hamid karzai. we will discuss that facial that country's president and what it means here at home. that's next. ♪

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of afghanistan and who would go on to win two elected terms reading it country. two years later, woe speak to the chamber himself, his very own address to a joint session of congress. >> you came to afghanistan to defeat terrorism and we, afghans, welcomed an embraced you for the liberation of our country. afghanistan is a central front in this war against terrorism. the afghan people are and will remain with you in this struggle. [ applause ] >> a decade later, the friendship between karzai and the u.s. is, to put it mildly, strained. we are going talk about that and what it means for both countries, straight ahead.

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how naughty was he? oh boy... [ male announcer ] fedex one rate. simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex. [ male announcer ] fedex one rate. life with crohn's disease ois a daily game of "what if's". what if my abdominal pain and cramps come back? what if the plane gets delayed? what if i can't hide my symptoms? what if? but what if the most important question is the one you're not asking? what if the underlying cause of your symptoms is damaging inflammation? for help getting the answers you need, talk to your doctor and visit crohnsandcolitisinfo.com to get your complimentary q&a book, with information from experts on your condition. when u.s. forces led the invasion of afghanistan in october 2001, in the wake of the september 11th attacks, with then quickly drove out the taliban, it was seen almost universally as a triumph, but it also created a power vacuum.

time was of the essence and so the united states decided it wouldn't and it couldn't find any better ally to take control of the new afghanistan than a pash tune leader, a tribal leader who had been trying to start his own resistance against the taliban in kandahar. u.s. special forces came to his rescue in the mountains north of kandahar, flew him to safety to pakistan where he was living with his family. when he was able to return to afghanistan to help fight off the taliban, the u.s. felt they had the local hero they needed, a man who had saved afghanistan, the man who they had helped save from assassination and the man they believe would be the future of the country, someone to lead a new democracy in afghanistan the u.s.-led coalition helped to rebuild that country in the taliban's wake, a partner that man, of course, was har mid-karzai. in the early part of 2002, aft he was he was installed as the interim president of afghanistan, karzai managed to win over more than just the americans, he charmed the whole world. he was well educated, he spoke perfect english, tom ford, a top

fashion designer called him the best dressed man on the chiccist man on the planet. karzai visited world capitals in 2002, one after another, including a stop in washington for the president bush's state of the union address n tokyo, a global telethon of sorts, karzai used his language skills to persuade other world leaders to donate a wong $4.5 billion to the afghanistan rebuilding effort. the entire world, it seemed, was pinning its hopes and pocketbooks on hamid karzai as you the future of afghanistan. 12 years later there, potential has largely gone unrealized. hamid karzai is still the president, the elected president, winning office not once but twice, yet his administration has been plagued by criticism, by charges of corruption of braft, the billions upon billions of aid donated to afghanistan in 2002, only a small fraction of it, it appears, ever actually made it through, the rest of it, it seems is lining the pockets of

afghan officials and american contractors. also the drug trade still flourishes, opium, the beautiful fields pull full of pop business. karzai's own brother killed, accused of overseeing one of the largest drug cartels much the taliban has returned with a vengeance, not least because of all of the corruption and the drug trade. in 2005, transparency international ranked afghanistan 117th on its corruption index. notice most recent survey, it has dropped to 174. the third most corrupt country on the planet earth. all the while, the relationship between the u.s. and karzai is showing increasing signs of strain. president obama winning the white house, in part, by saying this afghanistan was the conflict where the should be focusing all of its resource and not iraq. when he took office, he and his administration gave signs they were not going to be anywhere near as buddy/buddy with karzai as his predecessor had been, wouldn't be looking the other way when it came to all the drugs and all the corruption

that karzai shouldn't be doing so either. by august of that year, 2009, obama's first year in office, during a presidential election in afghanistan, polls showed karzai ahead. obama administration officials were struggling to explain how this he would find a way to keep dealing with karzai after he won that election. more than four years late, the u.s. is planning its own exit from afghanistan, 12 months from now, by the end of 2014, hamid karzai announced his plans to leave office, too. another afghan president will be elected next year. the big question for both sides before they both leave, is how many troops the u.s. will leave behind. the u.s. has offered to leave around 10,000 troops in afghanistan as a security force. karzai can't seem to make up his mind. first, he said that afghanistan's grand council of elders would have the final sign the security deal, but once they signed off on it last week, karzai himself still wouldn't sign. and a coalition air strike killed a 2-year-old afghan boy, karzai called the u.s. oppressors, said that that was the reason he wouldn't be

signing. national security adviser susan rice says if karzai doesn't sign soon, they will have to plan for a future with no american troops in afghanistan, zero. a very recent precedent for leaving a country with no security forces left behind. it's what happened in iraq two years ago. the country has devolved into violence and chaos ever since. 12 years ago, the u.s. entered afghanistan with the goal of taking on the taliban. it was the first wave of what we would end up calling you the war on terrorism and long since surpassed very yacht nam as the long waste war in american history. what happens after a dozen years and countless blood and pressures loss, the u.s. ends up leaving afghanistan with the very same power vacuum it helped to control zblat what fills that vacuum? what are the security consequences for that? after all it has cost us, shouldn't we be asking ourselves why? well, here to talk about this at the table we still have rick hertz berg with the new yorker, robert george, editorial writer for the "new york post" and former aide to house speaker newt gingrich, michael cone,

fellow with the century foundation and msnbc contributor, goldie taylor, also a columnist with the grio.com. thanks for joining us. so let's start, michael, with the basic dilemma that karzai is facing now over this sort of status of forces agreement, his council signed off on it the u.s. said we want to leave these troops behind. susan rice now threatening to leave zero troops behindsome this a real threat, the possibility that karzai won't sign this and what are the implications? >> i think the threat is pretty minimal. at the end, karzai will have to sign this, because everybody want him to sign it i think his own wants him to sign it leadership wants him to sign it all the other countries around afghanistan want him to sign t. >> why is he putting everybody through it? why is he going through this? >> i think a couple of reasons. the one the longer he holds out signing it, the more leverage he has. he thinks they played too dom rant netanyahu a role in the election in april and in 2009. that is a huge fact.

if he sign this he is saying the u.s. will stay in the country ten more years. he doesn't want to do that also, he doesn't trust the americans, he never has. the fact is that our interests and our strategy in afghanistan has always run parallel to what his interests are in afghanistan, this has been our problem since the surge, a problem since obama has been president and chingness come in to roost on that frayed relationship. this particular showdown.ckens to roost on that frayed relationship. this particular showdown. >> say he does sign this, will be troops behind in afghanistan, the last decade, last 12 years what do you think we have to show, for america what do we have to show for the last ten-plus years in afghanistan

and what will we have to show for another ten? >> the lives lost, investments made, we have next to nothing to show. the taliban is on the -- on the move again in afghanistan. i think this is like a lot of marriages that looked good on paper but dissolved when he found you had a partner untrust worthy. karzai himself became an unworthy partner for us. whether or not he is going to sign this remains to be seen. i think anybody who places a bet one with another on how karzai thinks or what he will decide, i think that's bad money. and so we don't know what's going to happen. what i believe personally, it is time for divorce. i think it is time for us to come out of afghanistan. i think it's time for the aid to draw up. i think we have placed bet after bet after bet in that country that has failed to pay off. >> you don't want 10,000 troops left behind? >> i don't want 190,000 troops. i don't think want the aid to their military them need to become their own sustained

security. they are doing much more today militarily for themselves. i think that process has to be accelerated and continued and i think it's time for us to come home. >> your setup piece kind of showed what happens if we pull out completely in terms of vis-a-vis iraq. but the broader point is the president, at least it sounded like when he was running for re-election, the united states would be, you know, leaving completely from afghanistan by twourt. this it is not quite up there with the level of if you -- happy with your health care plan, you can keep it. lodge gistically, troops have to say there but sounds like a statement from the president that doesn't quite scare with reality. >> what does -- what would 10,000 troops staying for ten more -- ten more years get us? what would it get snafg we talk

about how much of afghanistan does karzai even control? and if you have that limited, relatively speaking, limited u.s. presence there, is there any real difference between 10,000 and zero? >> does there is really no way of knowing that we do have something to show for the last ten years, that is that there have been no large-scale or small-scale attacks on the united states that originated in afghanistan. now, it's impossible to prove whether that's because of what we've done there or in spite of t but this is part of a longer narrative that goes back a couple hundred years of large, outside powers trying to impose their will on this incomprehensible, ornery country. we have done, you know excompared to the british and the russians, you could say we have done pretty welpretty well. >> could it have turned out

differently than any nine else or the nature of what afghanistan represents, the history in that country, was it ever gonna work with anyone? >> that's -- counterfactual and hard to say. we can say the strategy we useth utilized in afghanistan failed. you can go back to 2001, in 2009, with the surge, you luke at what president obama announced, sent more troops to afghanistan, no clear political strategy, there has not been a clear political strategy, been a military strategy. that has happened. the problem is there was no political strategy, no sense of what they wanted to accomplish after the u.s. left. so, that's kind of where you are right now. fighting has been as bad this year as any year of the war. it is -- the afghan forces are taking terrible casualties there's no sense that once we leave, even if we do leave or we say that this fight is going to stop any time soon there needs to be political resolution to the conflict and we have really done a poor job of executing on that idea of putting a political resolution. >> to your point earlier, we have 10,000 troops, what are

they going to be doing? are that he praetorian guard for karzai and whoever comes after karzai? is it a police spraying that exactly what is it? there's no political vancement to that or at least no political statements what that's going to be. i think the president also would have to at least tell the american people what americans are still going to be doing there for the next ten years. i mean it is not even as cut and dried as what americans are doing, you know, in the dmz. >> 10,000 troops comes with a pretty big sized check as well. >> that is the key thing here. the troops themselves are less important than the aid money. if the troops respect there then it's very hard to convince congress to keep spending billions of dollars. the budget for the afghan military is bigger than the amount of revenues the afghan government takes in. they need that money from u.s. and nato f that aid gets cut off, they are really in trouble. you remember after the soviets left in '89, the communist government stayed in power for three years. how did they do it? they were getting big checks from the russian government. once those checks were cut off, that's when the government fell.

if you lose, the aid, you are in trouble. >> that probably explains the images for the council telling karzai, just sign this thing? >> absolutely. >> well, i want to thank michael question on the century foundation for joining us. we will be right back to hear some breaking news and the first pictures of a huge train derailment right here in new york city. we will show you that and tell you about that right after this. eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. because you can't beat zero heartburn. woo hoo! [ male announcer ] prilosec otc is the number one doctor recommended frequent heartburn medicine for 8 straight years. one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. shhhh! i have a cold with this annoying runny nose. [ sniffles ] i better take something. [ male announcer ] dayquil cold and flu doesn't treat that. it doesn't? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast-acting antihistamine.

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there's some breaking news to report right knew. metro north railroad train in the new york city area has derailed in a part of the bronx that's the borough directly north of the city, sort of the gateway to westchester county, the suburbs. these pictures are just coming in from our local nbc station, wnbc. associated press is reporting that eight cars have derailed. there are multiple injuries. wnbc reports that 30 people so far have been taken to hospitals. you can see in this still shot just how close to the water the rail cars came, righten at edge of the hudson riverer. the nypd is saying none of them

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for only 50 delicious calories. football, he once said, gave him a good sense of perspective about politics. he had already been booed, cheered, cut, sold and traded. makes me feel better. [ laughter ] a conservative thinker, a republican leader, and a defender of civil rights. he was that rare patriot who put country over party, never forgetting what he learned on the gridiron. >> that was from the summer of 2009, the white house ceremony where president obama honored his choices for the presidential medal of freedom that year. one of his choices was former republican congressman, jack kemp. george h. w. bush's housing and urban development secretary, 1996 vice presidential nominee. kemp died just three months earlier.

the announcement of his medal came with the description of him as "a bleeding heart conservative." if that description of jack kemp sounds a little unusual for a republican, well, it is. or at least it sounds unusual today. jack kemp was a very different kind of republican than we know these days. he was very conservative. no question about that one of the original supply siders in congress. his tax cut plan of the 1970s was seen as radical and fringe at the time, but then ronald reagan became a convert, he ran on it in 1980, he implemented it in 1981 and anti-tax orthodoxy has been the rule in republican politics ever since. we talk a lot now about how the republican party used to be the home of a lot of real, authentic moderates and liberals, moder e moderates and liberals driven out of the party or died off. jack kent wasn't of those, avenues conservative, at the cutting edge of the conservative movement. what made him such an unusual republican though is he was

drawn to politics and public policy by a mission that animates democrats to fight poverty to fight racism to use the power of government to help lift up low-income americans who were locked into the socioeconomic conditions by factors much bigger than themselves. instead of prescribing the policy solutions the democrats tend to offer, kemp really believed that his free market, tax-slashing ideas were the answer. even if you disagree with him, democrats definitely disadoctor gray with him, they had to give him credit. the republican party of the 1970s and '80s was profiting politically from a backlash of the civil rights revolution, jack kemp want no part of it the republican share of the black vote kept drop bug he spent more and more time preaching his message in urban america, black and latino communities. we'd great history, he said of his party and we turned it aside. we should have been there with dr. king on the streets of atlanta and moment comery. we should have been there on the freedom marches and bus rides. it's why kemp was so eager to accept a cabinet appointment to george h. w. bush that did not

interest most republicans, secretary of housing and urban development. he used that job to push hard for economic develop n urban america. he had ideas, enterprise zones, lowering state sales taxes in small cities -- in cities to encourage commerce to boost local businesses. community banks, he crisscrossed the country trying to win converts to his cause to his party, trying to build bridges to communities of color to recruit new voters, new candidates to make the republican party more diverse. and for a moment, it looked like he was gaining some traction. at least a little traction. go back to thor 14ri 990s. republican candidates, jack kemp-type republican candidate, started running for mayor of some very big, very democratic cities. and a lot of them started winning. there was richard riordan of los angeles in the spring of 1993, he won the race to succeed democratic mayor tom brady by wing 40% of the latino vote n jersey city, where 6% of the leak tore rat was republican, two out of every three voters weren't white, a supply side enthusiast named brett shouldn't

letter won the mayoral leeks. new york like the rudy giuliani, indianapolis had a republican mayor, half of the 12 largest cities in america had republican mayors. the term urban republicanism back then was not an oxymoron. today, bloomberg reported this week winn bill de blasio is sworn in as new york's mayor in a month, end 20 years of non-democratic control of new york and make all 12 of mark's largest cities democratic controlled. the republican party of the obama era grows ever more isolated from america. today's gop writes off america's cities, all the voters of america's cities as straight-ticket democrats. doesn't even try. relies on the suburbs, on the excerpts, on rural america it stokes resent its toward urban america in non-urban america it is utterly and in many ways intentionally alienated the exact voters jack kemp was so eager and so desperate to bring into the fold. voters who just 20 years ago seemed to be ready to at least give the gop a look.

this is the backdrop for what is going to happen this coming friday in detroit. city where barack obama won nearly 98% of the vote over mitt romney, native michigander, mitt romney, last year. detroit on friday, the state republican party will be joined by senator rand paul to open what is calling its african-american engagement office. now, paul is an interesting choice for the task. he famously questioned its public accommodations clause of the civil rights act of 1964 a few years ago. earlier this year, he stood by an aide who previously called himself the southern averge, once wrote the quote, a non-white majority america would simply crease to be america. but paul has made several public efforts to at least communicate with black voters, speak ac the howard university earlier this year. the gop's national chairman, reince priebus, continues to insist that expanding the party's demographic appeal is one of his priority. black voters and urban america in general never been as hostile to the gop as they now are.

are paul's gestures sincere? is the national gop committed to reaching out? do they truly understand why their party has fail so miserably to connect with the voters jack kemp worked so hard to cut rate is? here to discuss this, we have back with us, msnbc contributor perry bacon jr., "new york post" editorial writer, robert george, syndicated columnist and political reporter bob franken joins us and msnbc contributor goldie taylor is here with us. goldie, i will start with you. i wonder when you hear the history we just went through there, the story of urban america, the story of african-americans' relationship with the republican party, if you start in the days and decades after the civil war, the republican party was the home to african-american voters, that was lost during the civil rights revolution. you had republicans like jack kemp trying to rekindle that and now you see where we are today. when you see the news of rand paul going to detroit detroit and what reince priebus is now saying, what do you think of that? >> african-americans voted

solidly republican for 100 years. and no one really thought -- gave a second thought to it. it wasn't that african-americans walked away from the republican party. it's that republicans, dixie crates specifically, walked away from them. they decide the african-american vote was not a vote they needed at that time. during the -- as the '70s progressed into the '80s, african-americans specifically began to take a second look at the republican party. it was because of people like jack kemp. i was with jack kemp in the mid'90s, walked through the streets of south dekalb in atlanta, alongside j.c. watts and newt gingrich and others who made sure the republican party had a big tent. it seemed the republicans once again turned their face away from kempian politics in favor of what we are seeing now, some of this tea party revolution that's coming along, containment bubble, the kind of, you know, racial animus that we were

accustomed in hearing in the '50s and '60s, hearing again today. you are seek the republican party, generally speaking that doesn't look as welcoming maybe as it once did, that is doing more talking to african-americans than they are doing listening. maybe instead of opening an african-american engagement sent we are they are going to do an awful lot of talk, maybe they ought to take another look at their platform and make sure that it answers the needs of the people that will living in places like detroit and los angeles and birmingham and atlanta and st. louis, maybe a two-way conversation is really what's necessary. >> so, mentioned jack kemp, this was jack kemp, 1996, bob dole's running mate you can great dole/kemp ticket. everybody remembers that. this is what jack kemp sounded like. give you a taste of that. >> we cannot forget, my friends, that a single mom and her children in this country cannot be left out of our great revolution for this country. the american society as a whole

can never achieve the outer reaches of its potential so long as it tolerates the inner cities of despair. >> it is interesting, first of all, i don't know everybody around this table knew jack kemp. i certainly did. he was sorter of the republican version of hubert humphrey, by the way, a happy warrior type, a man that clearly did not have hate in his heart. quite frankly, i don't think you can say that about all republicans these days. you have the party that wants to work on image control. they keep on talking about doing outreach, image as opposed to reality. john case sick was including medicaid because of prin principles about the poor that is the ongoing legacy of jack kemp. >> when we -- >> i was going to say, the idea

of jack kemp and the idea of big-city republicans, you talked about before, they go hand in hand, keep in mind, he represented -- represents buffalo. and part of the reason why he had this sorter of affinity in terms of outreach exsaw a similarity between african-americans as part of his blue collar constituency. >> when goldie talks about listening instead of talking, when i hear that rand paul is being deputized to open this office and rand paul who, on his network famous lay couple years ago, talked about he would not endorse the public accommodations clause of 1964, stand buys this guy the southern avenger, sounds like a guy maybe could do a little listening before he does a little talking. >> he will have to do a lot of

listening. i give him credit for going to howard and at least starting. it seems to me we can't really have it both ways and start saying that, you know, the republicans are completely writing off the black vote and then completely just, like, you know exmock them if they do try go to howard. no i absolutely agree. the republican party has to make a determination. they have to remember that the republican party, in terms of a percentage of the vote, they support the civil rights act in the 1960s more so than democrats in congress because of the -- because of the split between the north and the south. rand paul will have to decide which part of the republican party he is going to speak for but i give him credit for going to howard f they want to try to create this african-american engagement center or whatever, you know, fine, but it is going to have to -- it is definitely going to have to be a two-way sweet streit and we will see.

i do think though, detroit is not a bad place to have that kind of a conversation because detroit has been run, you know, by democrats for the last 20 or 30 years and some of the -- some of the failures there economically can be laid at the heads of democrats, not republicans. if republicans at least want to say we have -- we have idea, we have solutions to deal with that you know -- >> is there a message, perry that republicans, especially in light of the most recent history, the last 20 years or so message republican does offer that would actually get them a second look like they were getting under jack kemp? >> a great question. right now, they are not trying to offer a new message. luke what the they are doing, set up offices in 11 states around the country, either to appeal the hispanic voters or african-american voters. 11 different offices, one in north carolina, one in detroit, some of the republicans are

black voters, some hispanics. not trying to criticize voter i.d. laws you can not changing the core party mess age. i argue they should on some issues. they are going to be there and show up and ar ting late the views they have and that's better than nothing. >> let me jump in here, one area where rand paul has an interesting message there he is one of the people who has actually been critical of the war on drugs and given -- given the impact of the war on drugs in terms of african-american incarceration rates, that's an interesting -- >> if they want to extend that conversation, better stop talking about getting rid of the minimum wage and extending health care to the poorest people and those who need it what they are trying to do i don't think this is real outreach what this is doing is trying to stave off the criticism they get from white middle classers, specifically white women, they are the party of bigotry. >> i have to -- i have to cut

that because we promised to stay on this story, we have some more details now, we need to report on some breaking news here on that major train derailment in new york city. in the born rogge, the bronx, police are confirming fatalities in the accident. initial reports are that four 48 injured. the fire department says they continue triage at the scene. associated press is reporting metro derailed, coming way awfully close to river's edge. it happened in a part of the bronx where the harlem -- where the harlem river and the hudson rivers merge. so we are not quite sure which body of water it is. we are going to continue to monitor the story and you update with you more developments. right back after this. ♪ [ toys chattering ] it's filled with new duracell quantum batteries. [ toy meows ] [ dog whines ] [ toy meows ] these red batteries are so powerful, that, this year they'll power all the hasbro toys

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as we just said before the break, some new developments in this train derailment in new york city here. we are now reporting that there are four deaths in this metro north train derailment, this was apparently the 544 train from poughkeepsie. fd fire department spokesperson saying there are numerous serious injuries at the scene of the derailment. seeing some pictures there. this is something we are going to be keeping our eye on. our producer is obviously getting more and more news by the second. they are putting it together and we will have more innocence it becomes available. in the meantime, we are still here at the table and while we put this story together, we can continue a bit with the discussion that we've been having and bear in mind, we might have to shift gears in a second. goldie was raising an interesting point before the break there, too i think in terms of how much of this outreach that we are talking about republicans, minority outreach for republicans, how much of it is actually aimed at winning over african-american

voters, winning over minority voters and how much of it is aimed at making, you know, suburban white voters feel comfort around with a republican -- hey, they care? >> ultimately never know. not going to announce to you this is a fake initiative. look what chris christie did, what the rnc's model s you talk to them, they want to figure out can we find way? christie had staffers republicans hired in new jersey a paling to latinos in particular. find a republican get 15% of the black vote, 40% of the latino vote, you will win the election easily. i don't doubt they want to bring in more minority voters. also it does help to appeal to other -- increasingly, the world becomes more diverse, you don't want the to be known as the party of white voterser. >> one thing they will have to rethink is voter minority suppression efforts. you mentioned this a moment ago,

robert, about the move to the south and the west. those were fueled by bigotry. there was a southern strategy which was aimed at attracting the whites who had been yellow dog democrats. >> civil rights backlash. >> that kind of thing. and that's why they are in the south and the west that is a tradition still honored in the republican party, certainly major elements. >> how much -- i'm curious, robert, as our resident conservative here at the table, the reaction of some conservatives. i don't want to say all con ver varietitives, very prominent conservatives who i think in the obama years responded to the obama presidency with rhetoric and with the attacks on the party very racially charged. how much has it setback the broader conservative project in

terms of appealing to african-american voters in >> i think an issue when you have a southern congressman yelling "you lie" in the middle of the state of the union address, there is that belief there is an attitude toward the president that is touched upon race. stlan aspect, the republican party has to recognize appearances and rhetoric actually matters, which is one of the reasons why chris christie was smart, following -- following sandy, hurricane sandy. he is somebody he has to work with to get tied his state. it wasn't just smart politically, it was just smart in reality. if republicans don't, you know, kind of recognize that there is

politics on one side and rhetoric on the other side, they can still work, you know, work with the president, respect the office, respect the man, even if you are, you know exdisagreeing. >> we keep hearing the name chris christie come up here, chris christie put together this broad coalition in new jersey. besides chris christie they have rand paul out there seems an imperfect outreach. >> jeb bush is talking. >> out of politics a decade. >> you are talking about three, four, or five people. the party is a lot larger than that you don't need a big tent for that you need a teeny, tiny pup tent. >> are there republicans out there today you say are jack kemp -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> the fact of the matter is that the bench is shallow because certainly someone plays that kind of gamant is welcome in all quarters of this country and you talking about the answers that some of the communities are looking for,

maybe you are considered a ryan know, a republican in name only, maybe not considered really a dyed in the wool republican, that gets knew a loft trouble, for someone like a chris christie everybody heralds maybe he would be a great general election candidate, maybe not. my thing is he has got to get out of the republican party and how does he do that, in north carolina, georgia, oklahoma, new mexi mexico, how does he get out of a gop primary if he is seen as a moderate, sort of a yankee liberal, for the rest of the republicans in the country? >> i'm not sure sure in the jack kemp.r. era there were many jac kemp democrats. there has been -- african-americans are predominantly democratic and have been for a long time. we can say voter idealism not helping the republicans but i think hillary clinton will do well african-americans. barack obama did john kerry did.

>> the clintons are out there now, trying to repair the kinds of broken bounds that they have got. >> i'm so glad you brought up that, a piece of news i wanted to get this in this morning because you had the primary, obama/clinton primary, some by clinton himself, people around the clints, i think caused some damage in terms of the relationship between clinton and the african-american community u the "new york times" has an article about the outreach the clintons are doing, quotes al sharpton, this network's own al sharpton, i think san effort repair whatever damage they felt may have done in '08. there some in the african-american community who have lingering questions, if not an antipathy, towards them. >> you are talking about three strikes you are out, you're talking about welfare reform that came to the clinton era, a lot of clinton era legacy unraveling, people are taking a second look at now that i don't believe, at the end of the day,

african-american voters can be won back but i don't believe they are solidly in a clinton campaign today. >> successful policy and i think was good for the -- good for many parts. >> i don't know the african-american has bought it. >> 85% approval rating among african-americans now, fairly close to president obama. she starts a at very high place. >> not like there's another barack obama that is going to be challenging hillary clinton in the primaries. >> certainly more in the clinton camp than there are in the republican party. that kind of thing. that office in detroit is being called the separate but equal outreach center. which is of course a code word for racism. >> i want to thank thomas robert george for joining us this morning, we are going to have more on politics and the latest on the breaking news here in new york city. update you on that when we come back. i love having a free checked bag

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can tell you about that metro north train derail n new york city. as we said, we are reporting there are four people now who are daerktd least 48 who are injured. the office of new york governor andrew cuomo says he is now on his way to the scene. the new york fire department says 130 firefighters are currently there on the scene. metro north said this was a seven-car train in total. four or five derailed. this happened 100 yards north of the station as the train was rounding a curve before the spiten duyvel station in the bronx, 100 groorsdment that station. that's remarkable that so much energy is, is wasted.

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for millions of americans, thanksgiving means going home, packing your bags and enduring travel hell, clogged highways, airline delays, bad weather, but then also finally making your way back to wherever it is you come from, getting to see your parents, they are getting a little old now getting to sleep in your old bedroom again maybe, getting to see people you grew up with, to marvel at how much they have changed or how little they have changed to watch your terrible high school football team lose its prior prioralry game. also mean seeing relatives you only see once a year on thanksgiving for a big, extended family thanksgiving dinner, grand parent, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, maybe everyone gets along fine. maybe tension beneath the surface. aunt an i did mad aunt amy wouldn't invest in his can't-miss business idea a few years ago, i don't know, something like that. all too often, no matter anyone's intention there is a landmine wait to be stepped on, politics. maybe your tea party uncle starts yelling at your college nephew who after half a semester

decided's socialist, kennedy-loved fighting mother starts fighting with her sarah palin, glasses wearing sister. and the e-mail she forwarded you, how the president wasn't born in america. phenomenon so pervasive, all sorts of survival guides came out last week before the holiday, ten unsatisfying rules disagreeing friends or family over the holidays. there is one. tired of people talking politics at thanksgiving, here is how you can stop them. you get the idea it has been three days now since this year's thanksgiving and we are all back from our family thanksgiving tables. we are back here at the "up" table. our belts might be a little tighter and now we have pastries instead of turkey, but i bet there are some stories to tell. so, i want to know, how did it go? talk about it. perry bacon from the grio, rick hertz berg, "the new yorker," bob franken and msnbc contributor, goldie taylor. i have my thrilling, exciting stories, weren't too thrilling this year, had some in the past.

i want to know what was it -- who talked politics with their family, how did it go this year? goldie, sounded like you had a particularly interesting family thanksgiving. tell us about it. >> you know, it isn't often but my family came to atlanta from east st. louis and so we had a sort of wild and raucous thanksgiving, a great one, got to spend time with my 80-year-old aunt. her oldest daughter, my cousin, janice, we call her bump, loves president obama and i mean, she idolizes him. she named her shih tzu mr. president. so i meet mr. president, the small, white dog over thanksgiving. and i'm -- hill lairity ensues but the real story is my mom had some really important questions about the affordable care act and she and my oldest nephew had enrolled online. they paid that first payment. they weren't sure about a lot of things and so there are lots of questions to be asked. what didn't happen this thanksgiving? we don't do a lot of disagreement. i think first of all, my family learned not to disagree with me. but i -- >> so it's happened in the past?

>> does happen in the past. i think there was a bit of a concern because i do come from a family that i think overwhelmingly voted for this president. i think there was a concern about the affordable health care act. i think there was a concern about his presidency in general because they are hearing all of this bad news. >> obama supporters who want to know, hey is this thing gonna work is this going to be okay? >> my family specifically wanted to know, is he gonna be okay? you know, not in any way that they were thinking that he had done some bad thing but what are they doing to him in washington was a real concern from -- >> what did you tell them? >> i said he is going to be great. i think this president's legacy is as secure as any other president's, i think, this affordable care act, healthcare.gov will work at some point. i have enrolled certainly. and so i think that at the end to of the day, that will stand as his, you know, sort of shining achievement when it begins to shine. right now, we are still in the

making of the sausage age of things. what i don't believe, i don't count him off as a lame duck president. i think he has some remaining agenda to achieve. how much to have is achievable that remains to be seen. >> so bob, what was the franken family thanksgiving? take us there. >> might not have known this, this is where the term "food fight" came. and my experience that this is surprising, but i'm bit of a provocateur. what can be super bowl will talk about i will do the yes button kind of questions and all that which is to say it can get kind of rancorous. always the case. >> saying you troll your family? the other is my wife issing an groint way home. you let your guard down, inhibitions i and say what's on your mind that is to say if you're arguing, not the usual, tactful things. >> what did you stir the pot on

this year? >> well, you know, if i'm talking to democrats, of course i'm emphasizing obama care. a lively conversation followed by hard feelings. the problem with that is that tradition of being either for something or against something has, flankly, spread to our whole society that is a problem we are having as a nation. >> what about you, rick, what was the thanksgiving? >> i spend thanksgiving with the whitman side of the family, that's my mother's relatives. we get about 30 cousins, second cousins, third cousins, around the table. and this year, it looked like for the first time we might have some disagreement, because it was announced with great fanfare that diane whitman, our hostess that her brother, frank, was a republican. so i said, oh, boy, now we are going to have one of those family fights i read so much about that we never h we started in on the budget and the deficit

and that was looking promising but when we got to the social issues, we went right back to peacefulness because it turns out he is a libertarian. >> ah. >> he isly to the on board with gay marriage and legalizing marijuana and all that stuff. so, our big family feud just fell through. >> this was disappointing you, 'cause you were looking forward to -- >> yeah. that's right. rehearsing for -- >> what but, perry? >> so my wife and i usually go to see one of our parents. this year, we hosted ourselves. my wife and i and five of our friends who are all -- work in politics some way. i learned a lot about kim and kanye and that video, which i had not seen before. spending too much time prepping, we passed around the ipad, looked at seth rogan mockery of it. the political discussion in our house, kind of, two appointees,

kind of who will be hillary clinton's campaign messenger, s.e.c., not the football conference, but the security exchange commission which had an article in the new yorker. one of my friends is an s.e.c. lawyer. we wonked out. >> you had the most boring thanksgiving? that's what i'm getting from that. >> well, we will pick this up. we do want to just update you again, a little bit more, awkward shift here, sorry, this is a breaking news story, a terrible story in the bronx, just a few miles from here actually. again, now you're seeing scenes from this train derailment, four or five cars from the 7-car train about 100 yards from the stay, the bronx, went off the tracks. reports of four dead, 48 injured. governor cuomo, andrew cuomo, from new york, at the scene. cuomo is going to be briefing with other city officials. our local nbc station is reporting it was the front four cars of the 7-car train that derailed. the mta, the agency that runs the train system here, says it

was the 5:54 a.m. train from poughkeepsie to new york, due to arrive at grand central station, 7:43. derailment occurred at 7:20 this morning. again, 100 yards north of that spuyten duyvel station in the bronx on a curve section of the tracks. more details, more pictures, obviously, a lot to be unfolding there in the next few hours. we will keep you posted and we will pick this up right after this. ready to run your lines? okay, who helps you focus on your recovery? yo, yo, yo. aflac. wow. [ under his breath ] that was horrible. pays you cash when you're sick or hurt? [ japanese accent ] aflac. love it. [ under his breath ] hate it. helps you focus on getting back to normal? [ as a southern belle ] aflac. [ as a cowboy ] aflac. [ sassily ] aflac. uh huh. [ under his breath ] i am so fired. you're on in 5, duck. [ male announcer ] when you're sick or hurt, aflac pays you cash. find out more at aflac.com. yep. got all the cozies.

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so, pick the discussion back up again about what thanksgiving dinner was like, politics, family, eating, food fight, this sort of thing a bunch of people on twitter were relaying their experiences this past thursday. thought we might run through these. salon's brian boiler, the best way to navigate uncomfortable thanksgiving family politics talk is to drink tremendous volume of alcohol. i had to drive home on thursday,

that wasn't available to me h buzz feeds matt zeitlin if i can get to the kickoff of the raiders game without hearing that jordan should take back the west bank, i'll be very thankful. rachel since, a journalist, tweeteded on thursday, mom just declared it was designed to fail and they wanted it that way. who will day has officially begun. slate's said everyone in my family has similar political views, not that much to argue b thanks, matt. ben white, the best way to talk about politics at thanksgiving is to shut up and get over yourself. i tweeted live from our family gearing, said politics is tearing my family apart right now over the subject of a recently enacted municipal parking ban for the winter months. i'm not kidding about that. my sister lives in a -- started talking about how the street the cars can't park on the street in the winter. an hour later, i come back in the room and there is still a heated, strong, strong opinions on this subject.

>> all politics. >> all politics is local. >> truly s. >> two ways to save a thanksgiving dinner, one, you talked about the s.e.c., but the s.e.c., that is to say the southeast conference, is the way to save the thanksgiving dinner. excuse yourself and go watch some television. the other way is something that we did this year, we have a dog, ming gus, golden retriever, he really civilizes things. as a matter of fact, some friends of ours brought over their dog. and it was like their so distracting and so loveable that it really takes the heat out of a thanksgiving dinner, to say nothing of most of the food on the table. >> tv and dogs. i guess it's -- i'm with you, bob, and i remember, this wasn't a thanksgiving gathering, this was a christmas gathering when i was a kid, family in our town, christmas eve, i think we went over there, a few other people over there, i remember one of the people who was there, her father was from scotland and he was there and he was an out and out proud, admitted socialist. and this is in a suburban town, a lot of republicans in the

suburban town. i was too young to remember exactly. i understood that the socialist bothered the suburbanites so i had a good time that night egging him on and getting this reaction. i enjoyed that >> what's really good about having a scottish socialist as part of the conversation, i don't know about everybody else, but i've never been able to understand a word that any scots speak. >> you would have heard everything that my aunt geraldine had to say on thanksgiving. she was riled up about walmart being opened on thanksgiving. not only was she riled up that they were open and that other stores were open, and that there were nieces and nephews and others in the family who had to go to work that night but upset people were actually shopping on this halladay and that they were feed nothing this sort of, you know, she said what could you possibly need tonight that you can't get tomorrow? and so that started a very -- there was not a lot of dissent but very passionate conversation about, you know, what's happening to our world, what's happening to consumerism, what's

happening to children, what do we find sort of permissible in this world. i did not anticipate, because there are a number of my family members who are loyal walmart shoppers and many of them said, we're not going back for a while until we kind of get past this. >> it will be interesting to see if there's -- if this can be measured, too, any kind of backlash with the attention, but goldie, you had said, the tweets, a lot of agreement, political agreement and certainly yours popping up, a social science study done a few years thanking measured different traits among spouses and sort of like, they were most likely to have in common what they were least likely to have in common. most likely thing they were to have in common was church attendance. next thing was political attitudes. and then the least likely thing is neuroticism. . i guess one person is more neurotic. >> success. >> you know, some -- maybe this is a trend or something, want to be married to somebody with and

you want to be part of a family that largely sees eye to eye with you politically. so, maybe these -- these, you know, great thanksgiving family political food fights are going to be a thing of the past, if we -- if that trend continues. >> yeah, but like the self-segregation politically that's going on where all the democrats are clumping in one community and all the republicans in the other. so the people they are meeting are likely to be the same so we don't get the bipartisan mar arranges that we used to, which is too bad. i think there is a lot of heat in the marriages. >> mary matalin/james carville? >> not going nobody a few years. exactly. >> a best-selling book out. there is incentive. go marry a republican. >> my aunt jerry would call this equally yoked, that i think the study talked about the frequency of church attendance that talked about political ideology, that talked about the frequency of which you have cocktails, and so she would call this, you know, water seeking its own level, being equally yoked in marriage and that for her, at least, her

theology around this, that makes for a longer term marriage. i don't know if that pans out to be true or not, but the people that i would marry or day, i tend to -- i meet them. if you say something that i find particularly offensive when it comes to something about maybe women's reproductive rights or immigration reform or -- heaven forbid if you say something bad about healthcare.org, we're probably not going to have a very long conversation. >> there you go. >> the all-encompassing word here is "values." now, within the framework of values, you can have differences of opinion about politics or a variety of different things. and if you're having your typical dinner, you have several generations there, and that's where you're going to get into discussions about such things as gay marriage. the fact of the matter is, a generation ago, there was an entirely different view on that. for the sake of an argument, which is what we're talking

about here, you can go back and forth on that kind of thing. but at the end of the day, you'll probably realize that you pretty much shared the values, the fundamental values. >> right. so, again, we have to transition back to the breaking news here. it's a little awkward, i'm sorry, but it's terrible news and we have to bring you the latest on this. train derailment in the bronx. again, you're seeing some pictures there. as we've been reporting, 4 dead, at least 48 injured. now 12 of those injuries, critical. we're learning that the responders have finished their initial search of the rail cars and it appears that everyone is off of the trains. they're rechecking so the search is not finished. they've only finished the initial search. the ntsb is on their way to the accident site. they're supposed to be there this afternoon. our local affiliate here in new york, wnbc, also says that the fbi is on their way to the scene. they stress that there's no evidence, no evidence at this time of criminality. but i think in a matter like this, they're going to call the fbi in to check just in case the fbi is on its way to the scene. governor andrew cuomo, new york governor andrew cuomo, other

city officials from new york, they are already on the scene. they are going to be getting a briefing at any time. i think they'll also be updating the public at some point as well. so that is the latest. you're looking at the latest pictures, again, just a few miles from here, four people are dead right now, 12 are critically injured in this train derailment. we will continue to keep an eye on it and let you know what we learn. e with a better camera. my boyfriend has a lot of can't-miss moments. i checked out the windows phones and saw the lumia 1020 has 41 megapixels. so i can zoom way in even after i take the picture. and i can adjust the shot before i take it so i get it exactly how i want. so, i went with a windows phone. maybe i just see things other people don't. ♪ honestly ♪ i wanna see you be brave ♪ ♪ i wanna see you be brave [ fethere's bigcer ] and there's bombshell big. introducing bombshell volume. an enormous breakthrough in mascara for big...sexy... bombshell lashes.

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so we've been bringing you the latest this morning from that train derailment in the bronx. we have been reporting this morning that four people died in this derailment. we can now say nbc news can say that three separate city and state sources confirm that four people died in that derailment. there is also a senior fire department official who is telling the -- a senior fire department official is saying that the injury toll maybe as high as 67. i think we had previously said

48. maybe as high as 67 and that 11 of those are in critical condition. we've been saying 12. this official saying 11. so at least 11 people are in critical condition. you're also -- we have here that the ntsb is going to be launching, the national transportation safety board is going to be launching an investigation into the derailment. there's a team that will be leaving washington at 11:00 a.m. this morning and they will be holding a media availability -- they'll be talking to the press before they leave. you can see in the video there, i think there are scuba divers who are in the water. again, we had -- the word we had received earlier was that they had -- they had completed their initial sweep of the cars and found nobody else on the cars, at least in the initial sweep. there are now, apparently, as you can clearly screen, there are scuba divers in the water. we don't know if anybody is in the water. they're looking for that,

they're obviously looking into that right now. if anything from the train happens to be in the water, but there are scuba divers there too. again, 4 dead, at least 11 critical injuries, as many as 67 injuries, although that number has risen throughout the morning. ntsb on its way and will be holding a press conference before they leave washington. i want to thank our guests who are with us today for rolling with us. melissa harris-perry is coming up next and she will obviously be keeping an eye on this story as well. [ male announcer ] need help keeping your digestive balance in sync?

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