re. come in where? welcome to my mom cave. wow. sit down. you need some campbell's chunky soup before today's big game, new chunky cheeseburger. mmm. i love cheeseburgers. i know you do. when did you get this place? when i negotiated your new contract, it was part of the deal. cool. [ male announcer ] campbell's chunky soup. it fills you up right. this morning, my question. is there any convincing dan snyder to change the name of his football team. plus, nerd pie. we asked and you answered. pie pictures are coming your way this morning. and a major development in the story of courtney andrews. but first, a reminder of the reason for the season from one of our favorite people.

good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. now, we have a lot to get to this morning, but first i want to bring our viewers up to date on a breaking news story right here in new york where a passenger train has derailed in the bronx. at least four metro north train cars jumped the tracks at 7:22 eastern time this morning. initial reports are that four people have died and at least 63 more have been injured. rescue efforts are still underway right now with firefighters using ladders to check for trapped passengers. new york's governor, andrew cuomo, is on the scene of the accident this morning and is going to provide a briefing on the latest. and we're going to bring you that news and other developments on this story throughout the program this morning. but for now, we're going to turn to the holiday season and we're going to begin right where we are, in the midst of it. and i have a question for you. what'd you get on the third day

of hanukkah last year? how about christmas 2010? what was your favorite gift that year? can you even remember? most of us can't. and i bet, however, that you do remember the first new year's eve that you celebrated with your husband or the first thanksgiving after grandma passed away and you realized you'd never have her stuffing again. today is december 1st, and we're in the thick of the american holiday season. today, thousands are heading to the airport after visiting friends and family for thanksgiving. jewish families are lighting the fifth candle of the menorah. my daughter is going to be opening the first door on her advent calendar. these traditions, repeated each year, are what give meaning to our holidays. this is why we can't wait for the days to get shorter and colder, and these are the moments when we play the music from -- oh, i'm sorry. i just, i had to indulge the sentimentality of the norman rockwell fantasy for a moment. you see, the sepia-tone picture

i just painted is the narrative for this time of the year. it's what we want to believe about ourselves and our nation. these are the perpetual myths that we teach to ourselves, from the kindergarten plays that teach about the pilgrims and indians to our facebook posts that exclusively celebrate the high points of our holidays, leaving out the pain of domestic violence, the tensions of substance abuse, or the despair of loneliness that accompanies so many in this season. and while we like to believe that our celebrations have little to do with the material manifestations of celebrations, it is, in fact, deeply constrained by economic realities. it is hard to put a turkey on the table for thanksgiving if you are living on s.n.a.p. benefits that have just been slashed and thanksgiving's at the end of the month and the food stamp allocation doesn't arrive until the monday after the holiday. and as much as we assure ourselves that christmas is all about hanging your stocking by the chimney with care, for many

people, how good they will feel about that holiday is directly tied to what ends up in the stocking. about 140 million people, that's nearly half the population, are expected to shop during this long holiday weekend. just on thanksgiving day itself, 22 million people visited a walmart and shoppers spent $1 billion online. even the president went shopping, visiting a local bookstore in washington, d.c., with members of his family, and encouraging everyone to do the same, by tweeting, "when our small businesses do well, our communities do well. join me and visit a small business near you today to celebrate, #smallbisszsat." the average american according to a recent gallup poll spends on spending more than $700 on christmas gifts. that's more than the maximum that a family of four can receive in food assistance in a whole month. and right now, more than $47 million americans need that assistance or risk going hungry.

this week, the head of the church that founded christmas issued a critique not only of the consumerism surrounding the holiday, but of the economic system that gives so many people so very little or even nothing at all this holiday season. pope francis writing that, "joust as the commandment, thou shalt not kill, sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say, thou shalt not to an economy of seclusion and inequality. such an economy kills." at this reflective time of year, the pope is asking the catholic church to do is perhaps something that all of us can consider. what if the greatest gift we can give one another, give our communities, give our country is a clear-eyed statement of the realities of our national inequality rather than a sentimental myth about the irrelevance of the material. what if we focus on a tradition beyond the scope of our individual households and ask what happened to an american tradition of economic mobility. what if we got honest about the good and the bad in our national

stories, so that we could give one another the gift of a more fair and equal holiday season. joining me now is ray halperter, leader of the united nation. chloe engal, raul reyes, columnist for "usa today," and jonathan holloway, professor of african-american studies and history at yale university and author of "jim crow wisdom: memory and identity in black america since 1940." so nice to have you all at the table. ray, i want to start with you. talk about how you think our dishonesty about our founding myths continue to impact who we are as a country today. >> well, the thanksgiving mythology, to some extent, papers over the often painful and tragic history of american indians and the way they've been treated. even though it was the shared celebration, it was a celebration and tradition of indian people to have this ceremony of thanksgiving, and they gave to the first immigration group, and shared with them in a way that allowed

for their survival. but it's a celebration that should be of mutual inclusion and respect and often that's not the case for american indians in this country. >> the united nation had a float in the macy's thanksgiving day parade, is that right? >> that's right, and the reason we do that so people know we're not just stereotypes, we're not just mascots, we're real human, alive and well, because a lot of times their priorities are masked over by this, that people don't treat us that way. that they think that somehow our priorities aren't a big issue anymore, because we aren't real people. >> this point about sort of thinking about what's missing in our stories, chloe, when i teach my courses on feminism, i always say that for me, feminism is an intellectual question and the question is, what truths are missing here? what are we missing in any given narrative that we are telling? but on the other hand, i also always wonder the ways in which feminism, in asking that question, ends up being the k l killjoys.

the girls at the party who don't want to have any fun, because you can't just enjoy thanksgiving or christmas, you've got to bring all this inequality into it. how do we like both -- talk about these realities of inequality, while also appreciating the positive work that the myths do. >> i think to say that to kill the joy at the party by bringing the inequality into it, that is something that you get to say when you don't experience inequality every day. the idea of bringing inequality in, as though it isn't woven into your frd life is a privilege. the privilege to sit around thinking about inequality every now and then when it suits you. that is a privilege that, as you point out, millions and millions of americans don't get to enjoy. >> i wonder, raul, in part, as you're talking about this idea of, let's put it front and center, this is what we heard the pope saying in that moment. and i keep thinking, if the pope, who -- you know, i'm not catholic, although i live in new orleans, which basically makes you catholic. i'm not catholic, but there is a way in which this leader, in this moment is saying, the thing

we should focus on here is the question of inequality. i just sort of wonder, how do you think, for example, the american catholic community or even the american community in general will respond to this kind of call? >> well, first of all, listen. these documents that the pope puts out, these are pastoral documents meant for reflection and thinking, but this one, because it touches on something so relevant in our society, it becomes already so controversial and, you know, almost incendiary. i have to say of this one, you know, the pope is speaking directly to congressman paul ryan. >> you said it! not me. >> these ideas that are already being considered radical. the idea that he's putti intingh are basically the underpinnings of pretty much every religion. compassion for each other, taking care of the less fortunate. and by singling out particular supply-side economics, which my favorite part -- which has never been confirmed by the facts. he sounded like very much taking aim at -- >> i also love that, like, a man of faith is like, we're going to talk about empirical evidence here. >> right!

that is fantastic. and i think for many catholics, that's yet another reason why this pope is giving, you know, so many lapsed catholics, i should say, is drawing second notice. because that is relevant. that is what people are concerned about and questioning right now, particularly in the u.s. >> i want to get your voice in on these things. part of what we've been talking about here is the ways in which counternarratives challenge that sort of broad american mythology, that on the one hand we participate in, that we are part of, but also our historical memories, but, you know, change and challenge it. what does, in part, the set of african-american experiences that you, in part, write about, do for challenging our idea of who we are as americans for this moment. >> well, thanks for asking that. when i teach my course on post-emancipation african-american history, i start from the beginning of the first lecture saying, what is american history. i'm like, this is american history. and i teach the american survey. and so i tell me students, understanding the role of race making, understanding the role

of economics and slavery, this is foundational to this country. >> and so, we're going to stay on this and kind of dig a little deeper. i want to go particularly to your question around the first immigration and we'll get into how some of what we're looking at from paul ryan's food stamp cuts to the issue of whether or not we're going to get immigration reform for the changing american family impacts sort of the myths we have about ourselves. stay right there. up next, going hungry in the land of abundance. what it says about who we think we are. but first, last week we invited you to send us pictures of your favorite holiday pie treats, and all morning long, we'll be showing you photos of your own fabulous desserts as we reveal the life of pie. here's just a sampling of what you sent us via #nerdpie. there's a lot more to come. ♪

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congress was on vacation this week, again. in fact, they only have about ten days of actual scheduled work between now and january 15th, which i'm sure they are all very thankful for. before leaving washington this week, in an essay for "time" magazine on thanksgiving, house speaker john boehner invoked the settlers, who celebrated the first thanksgiving and observed that by the goodness of god, we are so far from want. i pray all americans are able to enjoy the lord's blessings this holiday in good health and happiness. you know who wasn't able to enjoy this holiday, the 47 million people whose food benefits were automatically cut a month ago and who face even more hardship courtesy of the republican effort to cut food stamp funds by $39 billion. you brought this up a moment ago, raul.

this idea that maybe part of who the public is talking about are lawmakers. let's get together and enjoy god's blessings, well, actually, we'll need resources to do that. >> right, not everybody can do it. and i thought it was such an important point you touched upon. if everyone has ever thought about the timing of the benefits, because anyone who has ever lived ton food stamps, you are obsessed with the end of the month, because you have to make things -- the resources stretch until that time. and now we're in the holidays and we have the two -- you know, the two holidays at the end of the month. >> both thanksgiving and christmas are end-of-the-month holidays. >> and we've talked about this before, who gets food stamps? who gets stamp. it's not able-bodied people sitting around, it's seniors, people with children, it's the working poor, it's disabled people. so the republicans keep promoting this myth that somehow there's the dependent class. it is not. it is a struggling class. >> and it feels to me in part like that point about who we think they are, jonathan, that feels to me connected, in part, so sort of a whole group of

american narratives about who poor people are and the fact that there are these -- there are these people who simply deserve to be in circumstances of want. and that we don't have a responsibility to them, because we're the strivers. >> that's right, that's right. this goes back further than what i'm going to mention, but the welfare queen debates in the '80s. the conversation about who's bringing down the capitalist order or the economy is always an overweight black woman holding a couple of hot dogs, you know, having more children, because her benefits increased. it just was not true. just flat across the board. most poor people in this country happen to be white. now, maybe by disproportionate numbers, you have a larger population that's black related to the -- their representation in the population, but it is so easy for politicians, i think, across political parties, frankly, to make scapegoats of people who just don't have power. >> and it feels to me like that scapegoating is in part about an empathy deficit. this is something that president

obama as a candidate initially wrote about and talked about, this idea of an empathy deficit. our idea to have sympathy for people. but our inability to see one another across difference and be able to say, you and i are really the same. i can understand your struggles, they are like my struggles. >> that's some of the challenge for american indians, because they often are not viewed is, except as relics or mascots, and as a result, they suffer from the lowest standard of living, the lowest -- highest mortality rates in the country, the highest unemployment. and some of the ten poorest countries in the united states are indian reservations. they struggle to have their real issues dealt with in a way that's real, especially this time of year, especially because in some ways, all of this connected, their self-image, their self-esteem, and how they relate to themselves and the rest of society. >> it sounds light, but i want to give you at least a moment to click in here for me. i went on the day before thanksgiving, like many people did, to see "the hunger games," the second edition. and it did feel like, man, this

dystop dystopiac future is right now. >> one in five american kids lives in poverty right now. that's 47 million americans. there is a reason why that story is striking a chord with people the way that it is. i mean, there is a reason -- in that story, for those of us who are nerds and understand the world through fictional narratives in many ways, in that story, luxury goods and consumption is literally taking food out of the mouths of hungry people. and it's true, i mean, those people are split into different districts, so they can't talk to each other, so they can't see each other across districts, and there is absolutely an empathy deficit. i know we're going to be talking about spectacular violence when we get to the football segment later in the show. but there is a reason why that story is catching on the way it is. and there is a reason why people are trying to -- you know, people who have a vested interest in making money from that story are trying their best to make it to -- >> into something -- >> into a romance. >> and to leach overcapitalist values that they can, by selling makeup and clothes and imax

movie tickets and all that stuff. >> out of hunger games. >> because that story has revolution -- >> because as soon as they can see other and there is empathy, there's a revolution. >> ray, we'll see you later. but next, i'll bring captain america in. a new super hero for all of time. but first, more nerd pie. said

that he is hopeful we can make progress on immigration reform, and that is good news. and i think there are a number of other house republicans who also want to get this done. some of them are hesitant to do it in one big belle, like the senate did. that's okay. they can -- it says

thanksgiving. we can carve that board into multiple pieces. >> that was president obama earlier this week, essentially a acquiescing to republican demands. then he and the first lady went to the national mall to respond to activists tagging for the lack of movement on immigration reform. the president reiterated his confidence that the reform will happen >> the fast for families started on november 12th and several of the protesters have had nothing but water since then. the senate bill that would carve out a way for 11 million or so immigrants without documentation to become american citizens has been languishing in the house since june. but the question of who gets to be an american and what an american is and what an american looks like actually fosters debate across this country, not

just in washington. and also fosters preconceptions about what color, religion, background make you an american. one man is challenging the stereotype of what a traditional or conventional american looks like. he dressed up as captain america, complete with blue turban, and took to the streets of new york, engineering sometimes-hilarious and sometimes-heartbreaking responses. he joins me now here this morning. so nice to have you. >> pleasure is mine. >> so tell me, what is this project that you did, this captain america. why -- what was the motivation for you? >> well, i'm an editorial costuko cartoonist, i've never worn a costume until i did this. i went to comic-con a few years ago, and she came in and saw this poster i had created with captain america, and i thought, i've got to have something new to capture people's attention.

so i had a little catchy captain that was based on my experience, basically saying, hey, take it easy, it's just a turban. now let's kick some intolerant ass. >> part of what i love about how you go to kick the intolerant behind is actually doing it through the brain. so i read that you wrote, to make fresh neural connections in our collective consciousness, to leave a new image on the hard drive of that boy, any boy, any girl mind, tell me about that idea of shifting our idea about who captain america can be. >> what happens is, i think we -- and this happens in all communities. we tend to see certain groups as the other, you know, this is not my community. and i know, especially with turbans and beards, especially since 9/11, people look at me and they just go, you cannot be from here. and i always get asked the question, where are you from, and i'm from here. and the second question is like, where are you from before? and i'm like, i was born here, i

was an american. this is about any community. this whole notion we have that every generation, we have something called the other, somebody who doesn't belong in america. so that's what i was messing with. >> so vishavjit, you are an american born here, but the stories feel connected to me, on part on the immigration story, because part of the pushback here is a narrative about not these immigrants. it is very particular, like, we've done this before. this kind of immigrant, sure, find, no problem. she's blue-eyed and a white woman, yes, that's what we meant when we meant american immigrants, but not these kind of immigrants who are brown skinned and spanish speaking and from another part of the world. >> and what you're saying about juni your experiences, going out at captain america and being asked, where are you from. i would say all asian latino african-american people experience that of being, where are you from, followed by, where

are you from really? and it is true, getting back to the immigration, 50 years ago, the top country for immigration. remember, we were talking about lbj's legacy before he redid the immigration act. the top countries that sent the immigrants here were the uk, ireland, and germany. now it's the philippines, mexico, dominican republic and china. and we see that demographic shift, and as a result of that shift, there's this churn in public attitudes where people are still -- i think much of the public is still conflicted about who is the other. because, even the notion of who is a minority has changed, thanks to just democrat and demographic changes and numbers. so now, i think we're in a period of where that's all conflicted in the public consciousness, just who is a minority, who is the majority, who belongs and who doesn't. and it's not done. >> let me ask you one last question here. were children any different in their ability to imagine you as captain america than adults were? were they more open in those neural -- >> absolutely. unanimously, every kid that i saw, they didn't care about my turban and beard.

some of them were like, this is really cool. they don't have the political, social, cultural filters that we learn as we grow up. so they look at me just as a human being. they're thinking, okay, you're skinny, so maybe put on a little weight. and that's good, because they're very honest. and even when they ask me a question about, what is that thing, because they don't know to call it a turban, it's not malicious or fearful. it's just curious. it's like, hey, what is that? so it gives me hope that, you know, our kids, they're ready for captain america in a comic book, it's the adults who said, i don't know. >> that's right. and of course, we, of course, then teach them very carefully, as the song from south pacific tells us, we teach them carefully to have those feelings. thank you so much, vishavjit singh. and before we go to break, i'll bring you an update on the train derailment. reports say that at least four people have been killed and 63 are injured. new york governor andrew cuomo, who is on the scene, said the

families have not yet been notified. rescue efforts are still underway, including divers who are searching for the passengers in the hudson river. this time, the cause of the accident is unknown. the national transportation safety board is on its way to open an investigation. we'll have more on this as it develops. up next, what did you see when you looked at your family on thursday? for many of us, it is a very different image than it used to be. [ sniffles, coughs ] shhhh! i have a cold with this annoying runny nose. [ sniffles ] i better take something. [ male announcer ] dayquil cold and flu doesn't treat that. it doesn't? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast-acting antihistamine. oh what a relief it is! wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing. eucerin professional repair

moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com.

i don't have to [ male announcer ] has some very special power. ♪ [ toys chattering ] it's filled with new duracell quantum batteries. [ toy meows ] [ dog whines ] [ toy meows ] these red batteries are so powerful, that, this year they'll power all the hasbro toys donated to toys for tots. want to help power some smiles? duracell. trusted everywhere. we've been talking about some of the myth of america, our founding, our celebration, our identity. another foundational myth is the american family. "the new york times" this week took an in-depth look into what constitutes the real american

family and how much it has changed in the last 50 years or so. and what researchers are finding is that families are becoming more socially egalitarian overall. even as economic disparities widen, families are more ethnically, racially, religiously, and stylistically diverse than a generation or even half a year ago. the data also revealed huge changes in the lives of american women over the past couple of decades. fewer women are becoming mothers, and those who do are having fewer children. and 41% of babies are now born out of wedlock, a four fold increase since 1970. also, 28% of married women are better educated than their mates, and that is true of just 19% of married men. and the share of mothers employed full or part-time has quadrupled since the 1950s. the number of women who are their family's sole or primary breadwinner has also soared to 40% today from 11% in 1960. joining the table now is jelani cobb with the university of connecticut. and jelani, i'm just reminded reading these statistics that

this was sort of the moral panic of the moynihan report, was that the things that we're now seeing as sort of normative of the american family were somehow representative of the deep problems of black families. >> right. and i think it's this ongoing thing. when we deal with african-american history, there's this theme of saying that there's a phenomenon, and it can't simply be a social phenomenon. it has to be pathologyized in some sort of way. it has to be indicative of do doomsaying about the future of the race and therefore the future of the american society. but one of the interesting things when i think about that, when people talk about the large number of out of wedlock black births, and they say 70% of black children are being born out of wedlock, well, that's technically true. one of the reasons that that's the case is there are so few married black people having children. that's because there's a larger degree of educational attainment, which is the same thing that happens with any group of people who get more education, get more social standing, higher social economic status, they have fewer children. so it's not that all of a sudden people just started saying,

okay, we just want to have out of wedlock children or that it's necessarily some sort of pathological problem at the heart of it. >> it's interesting, on the one hand, to be able to name a social phenomenon. and yet, chloe, as i'm reading those stats, i'm also thinking, on the one hand, i want to go, like, roar, women, we're the family breadwinners, but we know that because of gender disparities in earnings, when women become the primary breadwinners, it has negative economic impact for the families. not because there's a problem with the woman being at the head, but because she is likely to be paid less than her male counterparts. >> she's still going to be earning somewhere between 75 to 80% of a white man's dollar, and that is if she is a white woman. i think overwhelmingly when we talk about, women are doing this and women are doing that, the image, talking about american mythology, the image of a woman that we have in our head is a straight, white woman. she's probably upwardly mobile and educated. and we talk about sweep changes for women, and we're also talking about a very specific group soft women.

we aren't talking about people living at the intersections, we're talking about people like me. people who have benefited greatly from feminism, but feminism wasn't designed for us. we were already doing fairly well for ourselves. >> so then this idea, i wonder, then, if there's something that we can take from communities where there have been for a longer period of time more diverse ways of making and crafting families, jonathan. i'm just thinking about this notion in part that we -- again win support and like my president in a lot of ways, but i'm sometimes troubled in the ways in which president obama will create a narrative, that is only one kind of reasonable, healthy black family, when i keep thinking, no, part of our gift to the world, right, and certainly part of our gift to the american project is that we've demonstrated that there are these different ways to make healthy family. >> well, i mean, obama's playing politics, right? and this is -- it's just in the world of playing politics, it's

incredibly narrow. i think that -- >> see, i don't think it's political. i think it's genuine. i think the president really, genuinely believes that one -- that one man, one woman, married to each other, their biological children is, in fact, the most superior family form. and that, in fact, that he works very hard to generate that form for his own household. >> but that's fine for him, but when politicians start telling us who to love and how to love, we've got -- i mean, i think we have a serious problem in that regard. and so i share your concern in the same way, that if you think that his sincere belief, that he's trying to project it as a way of normalizing how we should all be, i have a problem with that. >> the other thing i think, i'm troubled by the theme in president obama's conversation, and you can point to data points that say, well, you know, the nuclear family is the best structure for a child, you know, educational attainment, you know, less likely for the child to get into criminal trouble and somewhat, but a lot of this is

also based upon how things are structured, like, in terms of public policy. so because of the way the tax code is written, that we take money from single people and give it to married people. we don't talk about it in that way. so, of course, you're measuring not so much the quality of the family, but you're measuring the quality of a policy around family. >> that's right. which is crafted on this old myth of what family is, rather than on these new realities. i love you guys for hanging out and talking family and talking myth and all of those questions with me. raul reyes and jonathan hallway, thank you for spending a little bit of your holiday weekend with us. chloe, i'm going to see you again in the next hour. up next, washington, d.c.'s football team and the owner's bizarre outreach to the native american community. but first, more pictures of holiday pie. we're going to do the tough stuff and we're going to do pie all morning long, we'll be showing you these fabulous desserts. we'll take a closer look at why we love our pie.

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nature at its most delicious. dig deep enough beneath the layers of stories americans tell ourselves about who we are and how we came to be and eventually you'll hit the big one. not just a foundational myth, but the foundational myth. so deeply engrained that all i have to say is, in 1492 -- and your mind automatically fills in the rest. of course, if you know your history, you know christopher columbus didn't really find anything. indigenous people had been cultivating developed complex civilizations in the so-called new world for thousands of year before he ever set sail. the poem gets that part right. but what's glossed over in this grade school story of america's beginnings is what happened when columbus encountered those original americans. a few versus in, it reads, the natives were very nice, they gave the sailors food and spice.

columbus sailed on to find some gold, to bring back home as he'd been told. see that space right there, between the nice, welcoming natives and columbus going for the gold? that's where our fairy tale of america's origins omits some of the ugly historical realities, like how columbus captured and enslaved hundreds of arawak men, women, and children to be sold for sex and labor. in fact, if you look beneath the surface of many myths of american identity, you'll find a horrendous history of native american people rendered invisible, erased, figuratively and literally, in the name of progress and expansion. on thursday, while many of us were knee-deep in a thanksgiving indulgence of food and family and football, indigenous people in massachusetts were commemorating the day they know as the national day of mourning. since 1970, the united american immigrants of indian have

gathered to fast in the history of plymouth rock. the one where the arrival of the pilgrims in 1960 marked not a beginning, but the beginning of the end. in fact, by the time the pilgrims came to massachusetts, the population of indigenous americans had already been decimated by a small pox plague brought by british soldiers years year old. peel back the nostalgia and the president of andrew jackson of westward expansion of an american imperative and you'll find a bloody road, paved with native american's struggle and sacrifice. most infamously, during the winter of 1838, when 4,000 cheer key died while being forcibly relocated to oklahoma on the trail of tears. today, native americans still bear the weight of those historic burdens. shorter life expectancy, higher rates of suicide, higher rates of alcoholism, greater health disparities, native women victimized by violence at higher rates than any other group in

the country. 90 years after america first recognized the citizenship of its original people, their struggle for recognition continues. no matter what you might see on a football field on sunday afternoon. more on that is up next. liverin♪ ♪ through 12 blizzards blowing ♪ 8 front yards blinding ♪ 6 snowballs flying ♪ 5 packages addressed by toddlers ♪ ♪ that's a q ♪ 4 lightning bolts ♪ 3 creepy gnomes ♪ 2 angry geese ♪ and a giant blow-up snowman ♪ that kind of freaks me out [ beep ] [ female announcer ] no one delivers the holidays like the u.s. postal service. priority mail flat rate is more reliable than ever. and with improved tracking up to 11 scans, you can even watch us get it there. ♪ wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing. eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. the end of trial and error has arrived.

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dan snyder, owner of the controversially named washington redskins, sent a subtle, yet clear message during monday night football to those still hoping he will consider changing the team's name. during a break in the came, the team honored the navajo coal talk code talkers. while the tribute was part of the nfl's salute to service month and native american heritage month, for many, the sincerity of the gesture is in question, because the men being honored also wore the team's redskins' apparel. frequent and favorite nerdland guest, dave zirin, put in his edge of sports column, "make no mistake about it, wrapping

yourself in world war ii veterans is the last refuge of scoundrels. dan snyder was rushing to cover behind the greatest generation." it seems snyder still refuses to acknowledge the inherent offense caused by his team's name and his latest move is telling everyone loudly and clearly, he just does not give a damn. at the table, jelani cobb with the university of connecticut, samuel friedman, the author of "breaking the line: the season in black college football that transformed the sport and changed the course of civil rights." and roman obin, former nfl player and super bowl champion with the tampa bay buccaneers. so nice to have you all at the table. >> great to be with you. >> so let me start with you. how do you respond to dan snyder's, some of my best friends are navajo, move this week? >> well, certainly, these elderly warriors need to be

recognized and certainly -- but there's a better way to do it and a proper time and a place to do it. i mean, the name is not -- there's no grey area in the name. it's defined in the dictionary as derogatory. it's a racial slur. it's an offensive name. it causes real consequences to the mental image and self-esteem of american indians and they suffer from some of the highest child mortality and teen suicide rates in the country. there are real consequences and these are all connected, self-image and self-esteem. it's a $9 billion a year industry. it's arguably one of the most powerful cultural forces, the nfl, in america. arguably maybe the world. and this is one way that some of americans, explicit and direct contact with american indians, is through this derogatory slur. and it has real consequences for our people. >> so this is -- this pushback against this name is an old fight, but it's gained a lot of momentum this year. what's happening this year which

is clearly causing snyder to respond, even while not responding? >> one thing that's happened, even with all the broad support that's come forward from the president, both sides of the congress, religious leaders, civil rights leaders, media representatives has such a broad diversity of understanding and support on this issue has really made such a tremendous difference. and i think we've really brought america to a point where it's not a question of people knowing it anymore, it's a question of which side of history are you going to be on. it began, well, we didn't know it was offensive, and we knew that. and that's the reason we're doing this. so now that people know, what do you do about it? you know that's derogatory. you know it's racially offensive to someone. wouldn't we do that -- aren't we a society that wants inclusion and respect? this time of the year, holiday season, thanksgiving, especially, we want to be a society of inclusion. >> so, when you grew up in d.c., and were telling us, you know, in the break, one of your first jobs as a teenager was at the stadium there. this point that ray is making, people just didn't know, they

were sort of just like, oh, you know, this is just the name of the team. but people know now. sort of, where do you stand and have you seen any change in where you stand? >> well, i had to read about the facts. i had to read and understand what the name really meant. and there's this word, you know, brand equity. and i think daniel snyder has really stood on the line of brand equity and protecting the brand and for someone who was a pioneer, when fedex field was built and the gourmet restaurants, i mean, that was unprecedented. he was a pioneer in that regard, but he's exercising his right as an nfl that he won't make this decision based on popular opinion, it's his decision. roger goodell hasn't gotten involved, but you're seeing president obama -- i mean, you brought this to the white house and that's really commendable, but i think all of us have to really take a look and see what this really means. i think the name should be changed. and if you're looking at daniel snyder, again, a guy who's an owner, wants to make money. probably would make more money if he changed it and did a complete marketing and brand expansion. but i don't know why at this

point -- i think something's got to be done in the next year or so. >> so this notion of the privateness of it is exactly what the jim crow narrative initially was. it's one thing to talk about public conveyances, but if i'm a private corporation or a private club, you shouldn't be able to make -- we've still heard senator rand paul say this. is that a reasonable way to think about snyder's right to resist a name change here? >> i don't think it is at all. first of all, the team being in washington, being in the nation's capital, a tremendous historical weight. and there's terrible history that the washington franchise has reckoned with the in the past. remember, this was, i believe, the last nfl team to desegregate. >> yep. >> and they had to get pressure from the kennedy administration in the early 1960s in order to sign the first black player, because it was becoming, you know, damaging to the u.s. in the cold war to have the football team in the nation's capitol being literally white. so even though washington has had its great moments for race

in sports with doug williams leading them to a super bowl title in '88, this, unfortunately, is an echo of some of the unfortunate past that they've had. >> you know, growing up in virginia, it was funny that you grew up in d.c. and you were a fan, i grew up in virginia and my dad used to push us to not be fans, because there was such a strong emphasis on being fans, and it was exactly because of that history. and i knew as a young person, what i knew about the redskins is that they were the team with doug williams as their quarterback. i was like, what do you mean this team is racist? and yet both the mascot naming, as well as that long history is, i think, as you point out, sort of this mark on the club. >> and it's also noteworthy that, you know, i have a d.c. connection here as well, with the howard university, and it's noteworthy that it took substantially less effort to have the basketball team's name changed from the bullets to the

wizards, which is derogatory. people did not want the city associated with high bullets. the crime rate in d.c. has fallen dramatically. people wouldn't necessarily associate with word bullets with crime now in washington, d.c. but you cannot -- it's inescapable to get around the complications of that name are. >> absolutely. i keep thinking, i live in new orleans, where we just changed the nba name to the pelicans, because there are no hornets in new orleans. so it does feel as though this resistance is very particularly about this name. >> it's hard to understand the pathological obsession they have with keeping the name, when it's clearly not a grey area regarding the name. it seems like it's a certain aspect of entitlement or something, that you can appropriate, and use them in a way, simply for profitable reasons. and we've done polls and they show that people really -- it's not really about the team, it's about the name. i lived in washington. i worked there. i liked the team. i care about the team. we want them to succeed. we want the nfl to succeed.

but there's a time and a place for everything, and time changes. that's one good thing about this country. this country, with many people speaking out, change can happen. >> i love that, a sense of privilege and appropriating other people as mascots. thank you for being here today, ray. and when we come back, more on football. why players at an historic college felt the need to go on strike and as you've, seeing throughout the show, we're going to do the life of pie. if you didn't get enough over thanksgiving. we've got plenty, thanks to nerdland viewers, who sent in pictures of their favorite holiday pies. we've got a few sweet treats of their own. there is more nerdland at the top of the hour. ready to run your lines? okay, who helps you focus on your recovery? yo, yo, yo. aflac.

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welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. this morning we are following breaking news here in new york. four people are dead and 63 people are injured, including 11 critically injured after a passenger train derailed in the bronx. the train was heading from poughkeepsie to upstate new york -- in upstate new york, to grand central station in manhattan when it jumped the tracks at 7:22 eastern time this morning. at least four metro north train cars are entirely off the rail line, and on their sides. new york's governor cuomo has been on the scene this morning, as well as more than 100 first responders. the national transportation safety board is on its way and will conduct an investigation. the cause of the derailment is unknown at this time, but officials say there is no evidence of criminal activity. we are monitoring the story and will bring you more information as it becomes available. for now, we're going to return our focus back to the traditions of thanksgiving weekend. and for so many of us, thanksgiving weekend means family and good food and

shopping for the holidays, but it's also synonymous with a favorite american pastime. football! especially college football. this holiday week has been a smorgasbord of big games. and while i usually reserve my local football enthusiasm for my beloved new orleans saints, this weekend the city hosted one of the most anticipated college games of the year, the bayou classic. the bayou classic is a nearly 40-year-old tradition. it features the tigers and the jaguars of southern university in my home of new orleans. southern won the game 40-17. sorry, grambling. but the bayou classic is more than just about football. for the two historically black colleges, this televised game kind of evaluates these two teams to a national stage, while promoting the rich histories of the schools themselves and providing a national audience for their teams. make no mistake about it, in the case of grambling, their football team is the house that eddie built.

eddie robinson, that is, the second winningest coast in ncaa history, with a record of 408 wins, 165 losses, and 15 draws. grambling's football program has produced hall of famers, willie davis, buck buchanan, and willie brown. but what the face is facing recently has put its storied history in jeopardy. grambling has had three head coaches in less than two months, including former grambling story and nfl great, doug williams, who was fired in september. the firing of coach doug williams did not sit well with the grambling football team and his dismissal is part of what led players refusal to play this past season. on october 18th, frustrated members of the grambling football team took a stand with only 22 of 80 players showing up to depart for their game with jackson state, which led to the cancellation of the game, which was jackson state's home coming.

and what is to blame for this neglect and shoddy treatment? well, a budget shortfall. and who is to blame for the decrease and funding of the athletic program at grambling, you guessed it, fbj, also known as louisiana governor, bobby jindal. in six years, jindal and the louisiana state government has cut the state funding to grambling from $32 million to $13 million per year. not only has this decrease in state funding harmed the football program, it has harmed the academic programs as well. in short, grambling is being asked to perform at the same level in both the academic and football level with fewer resources. and the combined weekend of activities draws more than 200,000 visitors and generated $50 million in revenue for the city of new orleans. maybe bobby could send the players with a cut of the wealth that they're creating with her state. at the table, jelani cobb.

samuel friedman, author of "breaking the line,". also, chloe angyal. so nice to have y'all here. sam, why should we care what is going on at the grambling football program? >> well, we should care for two reasons. first of all, at these hbcus, there's a long tradition of students and coaches playing a huge role in civil rights. football, we as we see it today, desegregated teams in the deep south. african-american general managers and head coaches. that's all attributable to what was done at schools like grambling, by coaches like eddie robinson and jake gaither at florida. lloyd mumford at southern and the list goes on. the student athletes there were never separated from the movement. they didn't leave these cosseted lives off by themselves. they were affected in every way. where they could and couldn't

stay on a road trip, the bathrooms they couldn't use when they went away, the schools they couldn't attend. the positions they weren't allowed to play when they got to the pros. most importantly, quarterback. and so you have to look at these grambling players today as being part of a proud tradition of activism. and one of the things that struck me is that this is almost an exact replica of a set of issues i wrote about in my book in 1967, when student activists at gram bling used homecoming week to pay attention to the overtly racial disparities in state funding for education. well, 46 years later, the disparities are there. they're covertly racial, but the effect is the same thing. and these players put their careers on the line. they could have lost scholarships, they could have been kicked out of school, who knows what else, to call attention to budget cuts, that even when university administratorses were trying to call attention to it, two or three years ago, no one listened to them. >> and i think, roman, part of what you're saying is the

bittersweet aspect of this for me. i think of how many times we have either the college level or at the pro level, sort of been hungry for the leadership of athletes who do command cameras and interests and attention. and we were looking at this louisiana inequity that we were just talking about. the lsu head coach, les miles, the lsu head coach, his personal salaries is more than double the entire budget for the grambling football team. on the other hand, i wanted to say, but come on, grambling players. like, the first time we get this protest is when it's just about you as opposed to kind of about the broader inequities in the system. >> yeah, it's a big travesty to me, because, you know, grambling was the benchmark. and when african-american players weren't going to the s.e.c. schools, you have this big host of nfl rosters, full of hbcu players, like grambling. and what eddie robinson built all those years, it almost got flushed down the toilet.

there should have been a sustained system in place for fund-raising so they could have proper field conditions. i saw the weight room, i saw the video, mold on the shoulder pads. that's something that high school programs don't have. you're right. it's good to see these players standing up for themselves. and to not play a game -- there's a purity about playing the game. it's usually, play the game and we'll deal with it later. but for them not to play the game, it shows you how bad it really god. i'm embarrassed for doug and that whole program or any parent that sent their kid to grambling to get an education and have a college football experience. >> soy wonder, though, about -- so, again, i'm with you. i look at those conditions and i think, this is horrifying. and yet, i also feel like, surely they also notice, for example, there's only one chemistry teacher on campus. and i know that you had an opportunity to visit with harry belafonte earlier in the week. and he is sort of indicative of that era of people who had the spotlight used it for a political purpose. is there a possibility that a fight about inequity in college

football could become part of a broader movement of these young people? >> one, i think it's just wonderful that i got the chance to speak to mr. belafonte. but one of the things i got from the conversation with him is that he came to see these things through the avenue of the arts. and i think it would come to them through lots of different things. we think of plaurt martin luther king now as this tremendous, iconic activist. but w.b. dubois said of the dr. king, i expected to see many things in my life, but never a radical baptist preacher. >> yeah, never a radical football team. >> so i think these things kind of open up into however you come into a broader arena. but one of the things i want to make too is the point keith reeves from espn, the magazine, made. and that is, when you look at it, these student athletes, at hbcus, are really the only student athletes we have. because these are young people who are playing at institutions

who generate large sums of money for athletics. one of which is the institution i teach at. these are not student athletes. these are uncompensated professionals. >> so interesting. >> so i think that's something we should keep in mind. >> so there's a kind of purity in that initial model of students who were there to be students, but who were contributing to the legacy and to the contemporary moment of their school through their athletics is really different from what we've often talked about with dave zirin and others on this show, about these uncompensated folks, as you put it. >> i think football is never just football, right? >> football is never just football. >> never just football. there are clearly larger metaphors to be drawn here. i don't think we would be having a conversation about the 57% budget cuts in new orleans to state schools in new orleans if it weren't for them violating this purity, this sanctity of not playing the game. like you say, if you want to get people's attention, you go to what hits them the hardest, and that is home coming. the bayou classic.

that is football. if the stakes are high enough, you get them where it really hurts, that is football. >> it was an incredible game yesterday, the auburn/alabama game. it was nuts, what happened, at the very end, alabama kicks this field gold, it's a long one, they miss it, the auburn player actually recovers the missed field goal in the end zone, runs it 100 yards back. and i was in a restaurant watching it as it was happening and people were going absolutely nuts. you have to pause and watch the amazingness of this. when you say football is not just football. what that does to the entire state of alabama, a moment like that. right, if the football is carrying this larger thing on its back. >> right, which gives it money-making potential, but also the potential to make social change. >> so stay with us. we're going to stay on this issue of how football is never just football. not just on campuses, but also when we get to the level of nfl. stay right there. we're going to give you the latest on richie incognito's

suspension from the miami dolphins. but first, more pictures of our pies. a closer look at why we love our life of pie. my asthma's under control.

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or choose $300 in free gifts with sleep train's most popular tempur-pedic mattresses. you can even choose 48 months interest-free financing on the new tempur-choice with head-to-toe customization. the triple choice sale ends sunday, thanksgiving weekend. ♪ sleep train ♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ call it a thanksgiving miracle, at least for an embattled miami dolphins player, richie incognito. according to reports, the dolphins and incognito have reached an agreement. the agreement puts a six-week cap on incognito's suspension, while the nfl completes its investigation into incognito's alleged detrimental comments, threats, and the use of a racial

slur against martin. his unpaid suspension is reduced from four games to two. in the meantime, questions remain about the culture of a team that produces this kind of locker room behavior. how did you respond to this news? >> well, i'm still disappointed at the culture that allowed this to happen, but i think rich incognito had to fight it and he was trying to protect his salary. but once the investigation is done, i think you'll see a big culture change in what's allowable, what's permissible in a locker room forever. it became about the n-word and the use of bullying and hazing, altogether. but i think once the investigation is said and done, you're going to see a big change in the nfl locker room. now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, of what goes on in a locker room, in training camp, how rookies and veterans treat each other. >> it's interesting. for other people, it's hard to imagine that there is still racial animus and angst in professional sports. and maybe, it's in part, coming from the place that you were

just describing for us, from predominantly white institutions and this long history. but we look at sports, and usually it's held up as one of the few spaces in american society that's fully integrated and where segregation is over and we're sort of post-racial or trans-racial or something. and this was an indicator of how much race invades even this sort of space. >> absolutely, you're right. the disappointment that this would happen in an arena that should be more fully integrated than almost any other part of american society is notable. but i think it reveals a couple of other things. one, so much of the reporting on this controversy, not here, but many other media, has focused on bullying. it's not about bullying to me, primarily. it's about the n-word. it's about racial intolerance. that is the frame for this. and then the other question is, what is it about the white psyche that lets someone use a term like that, and then say, oh, jonathan martin is my best friend. i'm putting mine to that famous moment in "do the right thing,"

where one of the brothers who works with spike lee's character says, oh, you're not an "n," you know, you're a black. he's trying to differentiate between certain kinds of -- as if it's up to white people to be the arbitrators of who's an approvable black and a disapprovable black. >> a lot of thing people don't realize in the nfl locker room, you have guys, white guys, who grew up on farms and qualify themselves or give themselves a pass because they grew up a certain way. or i grew up in jersey city and the only white guy on my basketball team, so that gives me an in, and it doesn't. because, on the other hand, someone's going to get offended that you're giving yourself a pass because you can't erase history and why you got to this point. >> let me pause for a moment. we've talked about the n-word and framing around race, and the other piece of news around intolerance and football culture that we've talked about on this show has also been around gender violence. and i -- and the exetent to eve

to the level of high school and whether it's gender violence about people who are lbgt, or women in sexual assault, ends up getting wiped away under this cover. this was a tough segment for me to start thinking about, because i want to defend the kids at grambling and say, let's give them more football culture, but i want to have a critique of football culture, and i keep going back, football is never just about football. >> and i quibble with what you said about how there's one frame for this conversation. i think there are multiple frames, there's the bullying frame, the race frame, the masculinity frame, the violent masculinity frame. it doesn't just have to be one conversation to have around this. it could be, like you say, a pivotal moment at which we stop thinking about a lot of things differently. that said, i wish i could be as optimistic as you are about the potential for cultural change, about seeing sweeping cultural change in the locker room, because, i mean, thinking about an issue like sexual violence, that has been in the water. we've been having that conversation around football for a long time. jessica luther just rattled off

a quick, easy list of accusations and cases in the last couple of years. miami and connecticut in 2011, notre dame and montana in 2010, michigan in 2009. tennessee at chattanooga in 2005. byu, arizona state, kansas state in 2004. it goes on and on and on. colorado players were accused of rape in '97, '99, and 2001. that's just at the collegiate level and the stuff we know about. then you have your steubenville, your torrington, your maryville pinpoimaryville. it goes on and on and on. >> my feminist side wants to say, yes, this is part of the hypermasculinity. but then there's that suspicion that says, but then we don't talk about all of the young men who are not affiliated with any fraternity or sports team or anything else, and part of it is as just when the grambling players are able to draw attention because we have our focus on them, that similarly their bad behavior gets evaluated in our public discourse, because we have our attention on them. >> and the effect of that is to let non-football players or

non-frat boys or non-lacrosse players or whatever it is off the hook. and when i say, this could be a pivotal teaching moment, i think, yes, we have that conversation about football culture and athletics culture, and it has to bleed out into the larger culture. we can't scapegoat football and say, those are the bad guys and everyone on the chess team would never, ever -- >> would never tune in. >> but we've also seen some really amazing, unforeseen positive change around a different issue, which is very loaded in the locker room, which is sexual orientation. so if you -- who thought we'd see michael strahan and michael irvine endorsing marriage equality. chris from the ravens taking a stand while this was a ballot measure in maryland. what has been more anathema in the locker room that be to be the, quote/unquote, faggot or

queer. >> i have to stop us. only because we've got to eventually get to pie. but you're going to stay with us, jelani. we're going to talk about your eggnog sweet potato pie. >> we can talk about it. >> we'll talk about all of that and any insights about race, and inequality and football that you want to share as we eat pie. from football to another holiday tradition, pie. why this dessert truly deserves a place at the table. [ male announcer ] this is jim,

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once a day xarelto® means no regular blood monitoring -- no known dietary restrictions. for more information and savings options, call 1-888-xarelto or visit goxarelto.com. [ female announcer ] let betty do the measuring and get a head start on delicious homemade cookies. visit bettycrockercookies.com for fun holiday ideas. betty crocker cookie mix. just pour, mix...love. wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing. eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. last week, we asked you to send in pictures of the pies you made for thanksgiving. and boy, did nerdland deliver. we've gotten dozens and dozens of tweets and facebook comments and instagrams and we are very

impressed with your pie-making abilities. and thankful that you shared is them with us. and this one right here, pumpkin pie, get it, might be the nerdyest one of the them all. so today we talk about pie. it's pie season, you know? and pie is not just a sweet dessert. pie is a slice of america. unlike cake or cookies, pie is uniquely patriotic. so patriotic that elected officials will jump at the chance to tell you how much they love pie. president obama's no exception. here he is talking about pie on the campaign trail in 2008. >> so, we pulled up to this diner, where people told us that we could get some good pie. and i like pie. >> me too! >> you like pie too? >> yep, there is nothing like achieving the perfect pie. and who knows more about perfection than domestic goddess, martha stewart? so we went to the vault and found this hilarious slice of

"today" show pie history from 1991. remember, these are two of the most powerful women in the american media industry. >> there's nothing more traditional for thanksgiving dinner than turkey and apple pie. and this morning, we're going to skip the main course and get right to the sweet stuff. martha stewart is here to add a little twist to tradition with some pie recognizes from her magazine, "martha stewart living." good morning, martha. >> hi. >> so i haven't made a pie crust since eighth grade home ec. class. >> i'm ashamed of you. >> help me. >> pie crusts are real easy. the golden rules of pie crust making, you make them cold and you bake them hot. >> why is it better to flatten it out first? >> you roll yours out and i'll roll mine out. >> thanks a lot! i wish it was the other way around. >> i think mine rolled out in a few minutes. i like to try to eliminate the long periods of time -- >> this is good exercise.

>> excellent upper body exercise. it's excellent. don't have to go to aerobics that day. >> yum, i can't wait to eat these. they look beautiful. everything you do always looks beautiful. thanks, martha. >> happy thanksgiving. >> when we come back, you're going to be shocked, just shocked, i say, to learn what kind of pie the first family had at their thanksgiving dinner.

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if you're like me, you had plenty of pie on thursday and are still happily working through the leftovers. president obama, he had nine types of pie at his thanksgiving

table. huckleberry pie, sweet potato pie, pumpkin pie, apple pie, banana cream pie, coconut cream pie. all of that at the first family's thanksgiving. so this morning we asked, just what exactly is it about pie that we all seem to love so much? joining me now from chicago is beth howard, author of "miss american pie." and here at the studio at one of the most delicious tables we have ever assembled, jelani cobb, rose levy berenbaum, who is the author of the award-winning "the pie and pastry bible," kelly choi, and sunny anderson, host of food network's "cooking for real" and author of "sunny's kitchen." it's so nice to have you all here. let me just start, why is pie different than, say, cake or cookies or other sweet desserts? what is it about pie that distinguishes it?

>> it's inviting. of course, they're all sweet, but there's something about pie that it doesn't have to be perfect. it's homey, it's delicious, and it has components. it's not just one element. you know, it has the crust, it has the fruit or the nuts and sometimes cream. and it's just something that makes people think of home. >> and in part because it has component, it means it takes a fair bit of time to make pie. i have a couple cookie recipes in my head that i do pretty often, just sort of standing around, like after i've made dinner, i might just make cookies and it doesn't take any time and i stick them in and ten minutes later, they come back out. but pie, i have to think about. do we have an art of pie making in this country? do people still learn to make pie? >> i think so. i whipped up a pie this morning 20 minutes from memory, except i didn't make the dough, because grandma says i don't have during the holidays. i think the ritual of making pies is something, to me, calms me. i enjoy it. plus, i think the mystique of pie is that it comes in its own

container, and crust, you know, what i mean? i think that's why we like cupcakes, because they have the cute little paper around it and it's like your own little personal package. anything with dough wrapped around it, i'm in. seriously. >> kelly, i love your twitter feed. i've spent a lot of time on it, because your enjoyment of food is infectious, right? >> oh, thank you. so why is it about pie? >> i think pie represents perfection, right? it's like that pie in the sky. just a slice of pie or, as american as apple pie. it can be sweet, it can be savesaver savory. for me, when i think of making a pie, it should be the easiest thing. you can throw whatever you want in it, you can make it savory, like a quiche. who doesn't love, you know, like different variations of a quiche or a meat pie. it can be anything you want it to be. that versatility is what people love about it. >> it's interesting, on the one hand, it seems to represent a sense of perfection that you described, but also, you were saying that you think there's a way in which it can be

imperfect. and some of those pictures that we were seeing, that were tweeted to us were these sort of very imperfect -- in other words, they weren't the martha stewart, i'm so ashamed of you thing. >> i like to call that rustic. >> there's my mom's apple pie and my mom standing there. and other folks who sent us these beautiful pies. >> that's beautiful. >> that one is aiming at perfection. beth, let me ask you that same question. what is it about pie that distinguishes it as a dessert in terms of how people are receiving pie? >> i think pie is very nourishing, it's so substantial. it's got so much more to it than, say, a cupcake. it's got fruit, it's actually healthy, in a way. >> yeah, totally healthy! >> right? it's just fruit. that's what i tell everybody. and you know, it really represents nostalgia and simple publicity, getting back to the basics. sorry, kelly, i don't agree about the perfection thing. what i preach to people is, pie is not about perfection, because people get so intimidated about making their own pie. and it's really quite simple. i have to say, for once in my

life, i might agree with martha stewart, that little clip there. she seems to have made the process complicated, but, really, just using your own two hands, it's very quick and simple and it feels really good to make something and give of yourself. >> jelani, let me ask you. you were saying in the break, you're sort of like, i don't know why i'm here! but let me ask you in part about this. you said, once a semester, you actually cook for your students. and sometimes part of that is making pie. what is it about giving food to your students, but also giving pie, in particular? >> first off, i was lied to. i was told i was here to be the official pie taster. i don't know how i got on this segment otherwise. but i do bake. i bake for my students once a semester. and they're under the impression it's like, for them, but it's actually for me. because it's the most relaxing thing that i can do. if i'm baking something, and so i make my sweet potato pies and, you know, i throw a little dash of eggnog in there and some caramel. but i'm doing -- >> oh, my god, there's a whole

amen, mm-hmm, jelani, put the eggnog in the pie. >> if i'm doing that, i can't be stressed about anything else at that point in time. that's why i do it. >> kelly, you were talking about pies, you having been born not in the u.s., you actually remember your first encounter with a pie. and it's not this sort of beautiful pie experience. >> no. i grew up -- i was born in seoul, korea, i grew up very korean, eating korean foods, and my, like the memories and recollections of pie i had was at mcdonald's. i ate those apple pies from mcdonald's. it was a treat my dad even liked. i think at the time, i think mcdonald's, they were deep fried. they were bubbly and crispy and the hot apple coming out. i remember that so much and craving it after a big mac. >> so now when you have one -- >> no, now i wouldn't ever put a mcdonald's pie -- with pies like this, i would never go back to the fast food pies. it's very different now.

>> i went to a couple of different thanksgiving dinners and one of them, all the pies were not homemade. they were actually store bought pies and i knew we were about to come do this. and i thought, how bad a sin is it to have bought the pie as opposed to having baked the pie? >> having written a pie book, i'm a bit prejudiced about that. there's not like a home baked pie, but you can get, occasionally, a store-bought one that's worth eating, maybe. and a lot of people don't know what a homemade pie crust can be like. they don't know how delicious it is. most of the commercial ones don't have butter. and to me that, that makes a huge difference. >> to you, pie crust is butter, it's not the shortening? >> exactly. and the thing is, when a pie looks too perfect, as the commercial pies do, generally they're not as good to eat. my nephew, when he was 8 said, my father has to have a dessert every night. and i said, just to look at the pie, you can tell it's not going to be any good. my nephew, i gave him a lesson

every summer when he came to visit on making pie or some kind of dessert and it paid off. >> beth, who do you teach to make pie? how do we learn intergenerationally at this point to make pie? >> are you talking to me? >> yes. >> i don't know, start them young. when i teach pie classes, i get multi-generations all at once, i get three generations worth, and it's interesting that a lot of the grandmothers, they never learned how to make pie. trying to set the record straight on that. it's just simple and it's so fulfilling. you know, you get your hands in the flour, and i agree with rose on the butter, it's definitely about the butter. >> the butter, not the shortening. >> absolutely! >> all right. i want everybody to go to the website, mhpshow.com for some fabulous pie recipes, but we are not quite done with pie yet. up next, pie as a true comfort food. we'll talk about how beth's apple pies helped one community to heal. and we're going to talk more about what you can do to use pie in your own life to heal yourself as well. but first, more pictures of your homemade holiday pies.

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so, sure, make me the grunt. 'cause i'll be using those points to help me get to a beach in miami. and allllllll the big shots will be stuck here at the cube farm. the citi thankyou preferred card. now earn 2x the points on dining out and entertainment, with no annual fee.to apply, go to citi.com/thankyoucards last year, our guest, beth howard drove the thousand plus miles from her home in iowa to newtown, connecticut, days after a gunman took the lives of 20 children and six adults. she and a group of volunteers baked 240 pies and gave them all away, slice by slice, to the residents of newtown. a small gesture of warmth and sympathy to the grieving town. beth is with us today from chicago. beth, tell us about what inspired you to do the newtown pie project. >> i was just sitting at my desk in rural iowa, listening to the

news that day, and i was just getting increasingly depressed about what i was hearing. and i just posted a random comment on facebook. and i said, if going to newtown and making pie for those people to help ease their grief, if that would help, i would pack up my supplies and start drive right now. and within seconds, i had people responding, saying, i'll pitch in for gas and help you drive. and the next thing i know, i was on the road to newtown and it was an incredible outpouring of support from people, wanting to get involved. >> in fact, we think of the newtown moment and the conversations that happen around policy and gun control. but, in fact, this idea that there is something nurturing and healing about baking and eating pie together. >> and people were saying, their kids were craving pie, but these moms were, i'm too stressed, too busy to make any right now. and here we show up with an rv filled with pies and were handing it out and they were like, wow, thank you very much

for politicousmiraculously appe showing you care. i think they really appreciated that outpouring and really acknowledged and really were grateful for that outpouring of love and support. i think pie is synonymous with love, homemade pie. >> so, beth, i am sorry that you are on remote, because here at the table, the outpouring of love has begun. the pie, sunny cut the pie for us during the break. and we are all now beginning to eat the pie. so while i take my first bite, i do want to ask you about this. in the break, you were like, why are we sitting here with these pies uncut. >> yeah, let's eat! >> let's make this happen. as you were sitting here cutting the pie, i was like, the other part of it, you're eating from the same thing. with cupcakes, it's each an individual one, but here you're eating from the same dish here. >> i love communal eating. it's why i love a 13 x 9 casserole, you know? that to me just spells comfort no matter what you put in it. i like to go back to what we were saying earlier about the

pies being imperfect. i love an imperfect pie, because then i can see my slice. when it's perfect, every slice is the same. but when it's imperfect, it's like, i want that slice, where all of the syrup is just gone over the edge and made a little burned piece right there. you know, i love, love, love pie. i really do. >> is there something that's happened in american culture that makes it harder for us to cook and to bake? i think about the amount of time i spend, just working, and just trying to make things make sense. and that you have to, as you point out, in being not stressed, you have to make time to make pie. and what happens if we reclaim that kind of time? >> i think right now in general, i mean, we've kind of gone through this age of, oh, no one has time to cook, but now, i know in new york, anyway, rediscovering that kind of homey feeling. when it's cold out or times are tough, you know, when our pursestrings are getting a little tighter than normal, we want to feel homey and feel like mom is still in the kitchen, baking our pies, like your mom is. and that's a lot of the nostalgia, i think, with a pie, and baking and cooking in

general, to bring everyone in the home together. >> you said something, you said, when times get tight. i wonder, is pie an inexpensive -- i'm sort of thinking, well, wait a minute. as y'all were thinking about the different things that could go into pie, is pie a good recession food? we've talked a lot about food insecurity here? is pie the sort of thing that people who are working on very small budgets can produce really beautiful and tasty things? >> not if it's pecan pie. i've heard that pecans -- >> oh, well, not in my backyard, but that's because where i live in new orleans where pie ingredients literally fall out of the sky. >> lucky you. i enjoy pecans. and even learned how to pronounce them. i know we say pe-cans. but pies are inexpensive to make, mostly. but it's a wonderful tradition to pass on to kids. and i think people are baking more on the weekends, because it's like a hobby, it's fun, and you can include your family in it. >> i think it's a good anecdote

to technology. we live in this fast-paced world and you want to come home and have this tactile experience and engage your senses. and people really do appreciate the time you've taken the time to make something homemade as opposed to just running to the store and buying it. >> and there should be more appreciation of the homemade, in the context of a fast-paced, technology-driven society, i know if someone writes me an actual letter as opposed to actually an e-mail, it does take on a particularly meaning. maybe that's in part what baking for one another does. >> i just read that book, "a simple act of gratitude," and it's about writing thank-you letters by hand, exactly what you were saying, melissa. and i think thank you letter or pie. give of yourself. >> feel free to bring me a pie with a thank you letter. je jelani. it's interesting that baking is this thing i love to do. and i learn eed to do it from m male best friend. he was really into baking too. so i think that there's kind of

like this, maybe a gender element to it too. like, we -- i know some of the men who i'm closest friends, we actually talk about our baking game, like, get your baking game up. >> i was thinking this, when you were sitting there saying it and we got the sort of amen corner over here, i thought, nerdland is going to go nuts. and everyone's going to propose to jelani. and the fact that every woman at the table say, we can bake a pie. and as soon as the man at the ab table says, oh, yeah, i bake a pie, there's a baking game associated with it. >> i've got plenty of member in my pie classes. how is that pie, by the way, everybody! >> oh, it's delicious, if i may say so myself, i made it this morning. >> actually, you know what i just said about pie crusts having to have butter, and i'm sure this won't if it's store bought, but it's really good because of the stickiness of the filling and the crunchiness of the crust, there's enough butter in it to transfer over to the crust. >> oh, my goodness! i just got a pie compliment from the pie lady! >> you're forgiven.

>> thank you so much! listen, my grandmother taught me how to make pie crusts and i make it all the time, but in a pinch, i don't mind getting it store bought, so i can cut down on some of the prep what i was saying about the gender roles is it's so interesting that when we grow up, we're expecting mom to cook. but when we become adults, we expect the chef at the restaurant to be a man. the real story here is that all people can have passion to cook. i find that usually people that are super right brained are excellent bakers. it's all about measuring and being exact and being specific. so i can see, you know, with your bow tie, you have it together. i can tell you bake very well. >> in my house, i'm the baker, and my husband is the cook. i have to say, just for nerdland f you don't know, kelly and i went to high school together. we were on a high school cheerleading squad together.

there is something really wonderful about here on this eating pie together. >> we will not believe this unless you re-enact. we need to see you re-enact. >> five, six, seven, eight. ready, okay? >> thanks so much. kelly and i are not about to cheer. that is not -- we grown. but up next, a major update on the courtney andrews story we brought you last week. this is one you can be thankful for. [ sniffles, coughs ]

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last week we introduced you to courtney andrews, the incredibly brave young woman who joined us after the man who raped her as a teenager was found guilty wbut received no prison time. courtney shared with us her outrage, pain, and hope for justice. even though austin smith clemme was quicked on three counts of rape, the judge sentenced him to a suspended sentence, two years in the county community corrections program designed for nonviolent offenders, along with six years of super vised probation. for courtney, the sentence brought no peace. >> what do you need to feel safe? >> i mean, for him to be in prison. i'm not going to feel safe other than that. >> but right now we have a major update to the report. courtney called us this week with news in the case. that same county court has issued an order for austin smith

clemme to be resentenced. that's right, the same judge filed an order in the circuit court in the alabama court of appeals. the case is now pending in front of the appellate court. you know we are going to continue to keep you posted on this story. and that's our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching, for indulging us with your pie pictures. i'll see you next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. right now, a preview of "weekends with alex witt." >> if you're any kind of friend, you'll have saved me a piece of that pie. anyway, we have the latest on the breaking news. there's been a deadly accident to tell you about. it's a new york city passenger train derailed in the bronx at the water's edge where the harlem river meets the hudson. also, actor paul walker, best known for his role in "fast & furious," dies in a fiery explosion. so how did that happen? is it the gop's version of the hunger games? more food stamp cuts for the holidays.

and are you ready for cyber monday? we have the low down on all those deals to get you going tomorrow. don't go anywhere. i'll be right back. [ coughs, sneezes ] i have a big meeting when we land, but i am so stuffed up, i can't rest. [ male announcer ] nyquil cold and flu liquid gels don't unstuff your nose. they don't? alka seltzer plus night fights your worst cold symptoms, plus has a decongestant. [ inhales deeply ] oh. what a relief it is.

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train derailment near new york city. an investigation underway right now. you'll hear from someone who was on that train in minutes. the death of a big movie star and the horrifying way he died. it's a tragic kind of hollywood ending. times up, and the white house says it has met the goal of revamping the healthcare.gov website and it's released new numbers. it could be a historic day on the internet tomorrow. the great expectations for retailers an why we might see a record. hello, everyone. high noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." we have breaking news in new york city. a commuter train on its way