starts looking around. he starts up the random gesture over and over. not his first go around as a fake interpreter of major events in south africa. here he is making stuff up for the video of the 100th anniversary of the national african congress last august. poor paul ryan. he is now in deep trouble in the republican party because he made the mistake of actually trying to get something done in congress. >> if you far more deficit reduction you are for this agreement. >> not great. not second best. >> would have preferred something quite different. >> least worst. >> it's not satire. >> isn't budget deal. >> partisan budget comoro is my.

>> we're not going to get everything we want. >> there is already a lot of criticism in both parties. >> opposition from conservative groups. >> the groups that came out and opposed it before they saw it. >> john boehner responded to criticism. >> they're using our members and using the american people. this is ridiculous. >> like revenge of the establishment. >> this time it is personal. >> if you are for more deficit reduction you are for this agreement. >> appears to be greater division on the right. >> isn't a grand bargain? >> unemployment benefits will now expire. >> absolutely unconscionable. >> republicans did not get any entitlement cuts. >> not going to get everything we want. >> what is the alternative here. >> if you believe in numbers washington is falling off the cliff. >> what we call progress. >> 1% think congress is doing an excellent job. >> worst congress of all time. that includes the famed absent congress of 1872. >> it's not satire. >> it isn't budget deal.

>> what we call progress in washington these days. the strange new normal. that's what the former conservative hero paul ryan called the conservative attack on the budget deal that he negotiated with the chairwoman of the senate budget committee. patty murray. paul ryan dismissed the right-wing groups that used to cheer lead for him. >> groups are going to do what they want to do. what matters to me its that my, am i doing what i think is right? am i sticking to my principles? and am i listening to my colleagues who have a voting card. >> house speaker john boehner is suddenly angry at right-wing groups he has been pandering to for years. >> most major conservative groups have president of out statements blasting this deal. >> you mean the groups that came out and opposed it before they ever saw it. >> yes, those groups. >> they're using our members and

they're using the american people for their own goals. this is ridiculous. if you are for deficit reduction you are for this agreement. >> some senate republicans are not happy with this deal. >> he has led to make a compromise that sells out what need to be done. >> you called paul ryan a sellout. if you and paul can agree? >> i didn't say that. he was told to lead a compromise. a compromise is going to give up your principle. >> senate minority leader, mitch mcconnell, facing a tea party primary challenger in his bid for re-election has been, mostly silent on this budget deal. simply telling nbc news he will "have to take a closer look at the proposal." but his junior senator from kentucky, rand paul has no doubt that it is a bad deal and he did nothing to elevate the rhetoric of the debate by quoting pop eye in his statement.

there is a recurring theme in washington budget negotiations. i will gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today. the democratic leadership is not thrilled with the, with this deal. but they are getting on board. >> we would have preferred something quite different but we do recognize the value of coming to a decision so that we can go forward with some clarity on other legislation that we want to see. >> this agreement is really a breath of fresh air. this new agreement, neither side got everything it wanted. that's how we used to work around here. i believe as many democrats do, emergency. unemployment insurance should be included in the package. that's why we will push hereafter the first of the year for an extension. unemployment insurance. >> joining me now, richard wolf, executive editor and political analyst, and columnist for "new york" magazine. richard , where is it going to be harder to pass this thing?

in the house or senate? which side delivers the support? >> don't know i can answer that one right now. looking at a senate, where he is being attacked, as a liberal sellout. you know, when the president won re-election he hoped, he asserted that some how the fever would break in republicans. i think we are seeing some of the challenges of breaking the fever right now. maybe this is the sign of a backbone among the republican leadership or maybe they'll all cave. >> let's listen to what radio host mark levine, conservative radio host said about paul ryan. to paul ryan. >> this is really mickey mouse. i don't mean to be offensive. you are claiming. we are facing a fiscal disaster in this country. i know you know this. you have told me this. >> hold on. i want to get my question in. a fiscal disaster in this country. talking about $23 billion over ten years.

the debt goes up to $17.3 trillion. where the hell are all the cuts? >> mark, elections have consequences. >> that is not the kind of treatment, paul ryan is used to in right-wing talk radio? >> right. it its not. i think they will be okay. one republican leadership aide told buzzfeed. paul ryan its the jesus of the republican party. they may be angry temporarily with their jesus. they will come back to him. he is their spiritual leader. >> let me pause there. a little note about jesus. christians are never angry with jesus. that doesn't happen. he will have to get some other title. >> they feel they have been forsaken in some way by paul ryan. the point its, they're not trying to make any spiritual claims here. but the divide you are seeing there isn't really about policy.

they both, levine, and ryan have the same completely apocalyptic view, fiscal policy, completely wrong apocalyptic view of fiscal policy when the deficit is shrinking rapidly. the divide is what paul ryan said. elections have consequences do. you have to live in a world where you don't have complete power? you see all the democrats are saying, yeah, that's the way it should be. no one gets everything they want. we share power. they're very, even, excited about this idea of compromise. and a lot of republicans just don't even seem to buy this idea whatsoever. they think they should, get 100% of what they want. this is an increasingly popular idea on the far right that has bedeviled the republican and made it hard for them to use what limited power they have. >> richard, the politics for paul ryan i declared hem to be, immediately upon losing on the presidential election, our most recent losing vice presidential candidate who will never be president. when you lose on the vice presidential ticket that is the end you. may get a presidential

nomination. like bob dole did. you will never be president. history instructed us on that. he seems to have internalized this. he seems to notice. rand paul, presidential canned date, immediately comes out against this. obviously the smart place for the presidential candidates, republicans is just be against this. be with mark levine on this. paul ryan. i think is telling us, look, i'm not going to try to run next time. you have more optimism in politics being aware. >> i seep the future clearly. >> history may say this is a clear precedent. i agree with you. there is a delusional sense that swaps these people. a smart person like paul ryan. when you have the crowd cheering. people saying you are the next one. the anointed one. you are even jesus. this is a problem of their own making they have gone out talking apocalyptically about the dealt and deficits. not surprising that people like mark levine in the whole

spectrum is actually fairly moderated, not moderate, moderated among conservative talk radio hosts. they have come to believe there is an apocalypse. it's hard to dial back the rhetoric. a bit like saying the president is a muslim revolutionary. suddenly working with him. people say what have you've done? a lot of disappointment on the republican side. reluctance. they do not want to leave the unemployed behind. >> right. one of the things the democrats had to do, an extension of the emergency benefits, in place since the recession started. now i think the democrats are going to fight for this. i know they're going to fight for this. after this deal gets signed. i think they have of a decent chance of winning. they didn't get it in this deal. so it, it leaves ape very important measure to the side line so far. >> and richard, you saw harry reid there, promise to come back to it.

after this deal. which means, january. which means, several weeks. which, i mean, even in your most optimistic ceremony here. that means -- those people who lose their -- unemployment benefits being without them for several week. probably months. even if you've think they will some how get it in the end. >> they've won't get it back. they will do the doc fix. poor people will not get anything out of this deal. everyone its going to say isn't it great they compromised. who are the democrats there to help. the problem with this one extending, both side of interest groups are going to come at this deem and pick it apart. >> what is your sense of how this vote is going to shape of in the house in terms of how much democratic support, how much republican support, and then also in the senate? >> i think they will get as many democrats as they need. don't think there is serious democratic opposition. you know you will get, certainly get the 20, 30 republicans who vote against anything that ever passes. they'll be against it for sure. the question its whether more

republicans feel the heat. but i think this is going to pass. when you have this kind of commitment from the leadership. you have got the outside conservative groups whipping against it. but i think they're going through the motions a little bit. such a small thing. it's, it's so -- pathetically tiny. it doesn't violate important conservative. we'll let you get away. pretend to be owe posed. don't make any more deals. then we will be upset. >> richard wolf, john boehner there, publicly snapping against these groups that he has been pandering to for years. >> right. >> that's what i mean. problem of their own making. they created this beast. they fed it with all of this, dark rhetoric about how all of the situation its. it is totally manageable. they're pushing back the sequester. they've don't need the sequester to get the budget and deficits under control. so they have set up this political framework. and now they're having off to live with it.

>> richard wolf. thank you both for joining me tonight. >> thank you. >> coming up -- the mystery behind the latest enrollment numbers under the affordable care act. and what republicans don't like about "time" magazine's person of the year? hint -- it has something to do with poor people. >> later, i will tell you about my weekend in birmingham, alabama which included a visit to the trip bombed in 1963, killing four little girls. birmingham now is a very, very different place today. >> this is my first time in the city of birmingham. city of birmingham is a miracle. what has happened in this city during my lifetime is a miracle. suffer

>> if we have to work through christmas, we are going to do that. if we work through christmas, we'll work through christmas. >> harry reid will keep the senate in session around the

clock in order to get 10 of president obama's nominations including the secretary of homeland security confirmed before the senate adjourns for christmas. senate rules actually require certain intervals of time between steps in the confirmation process. and senate republicans are refusing to follow the custom of agreeing to yield to that time to speed up the process and so the first vote is expected tonight in about 1:00 a.m. up next -- what are the real enrollment numbers under the affordable care act. more traveling. and along with it, more identity theft. every time you pull out your credit card, shop online, or hit the road, you give thieves a chance to ruin your holiday. you can't be on the lookout 24/7. but lifelock can. protecting your identity, your bank accounts, even the equity in your home. when lifelock detects a threat to your identity

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exchange, you and the executive branch of the government do not have to go on the exchange? >> well, sir, i would tell you the vast majority of americans with insurance also will not be on the exchange, 177 million people. >> but i am asking you about you. >> i am an old lady. medicare eligible. it is illegal for a company to sell me the policy. >> you don't have to go on medicare. >> i am not allowed to be sold a policy. >> in a house energy and commerce subcommittee hearing today, health and human services secretary, kathleen sebelius delivered the latest numbers on the affordable care act, which were announced by the chairman of the house democratic caucus, javier beberra. >> 1.12 million people in america have gained health insurance coverage as a result. over 360,000 under the marketplace, have applied

directly through the marketplace. some 800,000 through medicaid. 1.9 million americans started the process and would have to choose which they would look to have. 3 million americans today we can say will have health security. something they did not have before. >> joining me, dr. zeke emmanuel, and chair at university of pennsylvania, special adviser in the obama administration. zeke, these numbers becerra starts off with 1.2 million people. the words he uses. i don't understand why they use this language. 1.2 million people in america have gained health insurance coverage. we don't know that. because we don't know how far they have gone in the process. all the states. exchanges are using different definitions of enrolled.

also 800,000 of the people got medicaid. that is not health insurance coverage. so, why, why do they not try to use, you know, as the proponents of the program. why aren't they trying to use more accurate language and discussing it? first of all, medicaid is coverage. it does pay health bills. >> it is not insurance. not insurance. zeke, they're trying to blur the numbers together to make the insurance number look better than it is. right. we have shy of 400,000 people who have gotten private insurance through the exchanges. by the end of march there need to be 7 million people. the number the congressional budget office said would enroll. and, they're short of that number. and short of the pace of enrollment that was anticipated.

two months of a website wasn't working well turning people off. they have seen a pretty big uptick in the number of people going to the exchange and using the exchange and signing up. but it is clearly short of the pace. and the other hand, there has been hardly any advertising or promotion of the site. so i think, you know we have to, wait and see. i have compared this to, like, watching walter boil. you know, everyone wants to know, minute to minute what the number is. we know there will be a big rush. and at the hearing. congressman pits. got with this, with accuracy. and using a series of questions that made perfect sense to me.

and if i were a member of the committee, i would have asked the questions. listen to this. >> hhs released data this morning. stating approximately, 364,000 americans have selected a plan through a state -- and would you define enrollment. define what you mean by enrollment. >> we are giving you the numbers of individual whose have chosen. >> not actually paid their first -- >> through the end of november. yes. >> zeke, here is how i define enrollment. you can hold up your insurance card and show it to me. or show it whatever you are going to show a doctor when you go into a doctor's office. an id number, whatever that is. i am not sure who has that at this point. the insurance companies is not -- not perfectly worked out yet. and -- there still is some paper

problems. i know that they're working very carefully and closely with the insurance companies to make sure the people that signed up are on the insurance company rolls. you are right, the actual, you know what you need to do is pay that first month premium. and people who signed up, and still haven't paid that first month premium are not guaranteed coverage on january 1. again i know they're going back to them and trying to make sure it is not a mistake. and trying to get them to complete the transaction. this is an ongoing process. and every moment taking the temperature, not sure you are going to get the exact right number. i think the important thing is we need a big push. i think we are anticipating a big push now that the exchange, the federal exchange is, working well. we should see uptick in state exchanges as well. once there is a lot more

publicity. and, you know, as i have said right from the start. the real number is the number that we are going to see on april 1s, 2014. >> zeke, that is a very important point. the reason you use that number. you will be in a statistical reality zone by april. what i am concerned about is, there is way too much cheering about numbers, right now. that don't have any -- that don't have the kind of reality to them, that we need. i want to give you a report from the "boston globe." we all think massachusetts is where this -- where it really works. "boston globe" reported this on saturday. with three weeks left in the year. not one of the thousand of massachusetts residents who need to enroll in new health insurance plans by january 1st, has been able to do so, through the state insurance marketplace that was revamped to comply with the national affordable care act.

and the article goes on to report a lot of difficulties that the massachusetts site has interacting and completing getting to the point, what they consider, an actual enrolled health insurance customer. and they haven't achieved it for one. >> well -- again. there are other states that have had complications as well. not just the federal site. maryland has had its problems too. and hopefully these things will be resolved. and the connections will -- and the computer systems will work again. we know that certain states have solved it. so it is not an impossible problem. and, again. i think it is a matter of -- the end of open enrollment period, which is march 31st, the key question. we have four months to go. in that period of time. and i think that's -- going to be fundamentally important. in massachusetts, at least you have lists of people who have --

been in the exchange before. they're what they call the connector. so they all should be able to be contacted and the insurance come pans have a big interest in -- getting them to reenroll. and reup. i think that is another process that is taking place that we haven't seen a big coverage of them. we don't know how effective it is going to be. having the insurance companies directly -- enroll people. >> zeke emmanuel. thank you for joining us on this tonight. >> coming up. we will be joined to try to figure out why some republicans don't seem to like "time" magazine's person of the year. you got the bargain kind?

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>> in the spotlight tonight, "time" magazine's person of the year, pope francis. >> if i gave a speech on anti-capitalism. do you think i could be named person of the year by "time" magazine. >> makes me nervous about the pope quite honestly. when the press runs to make him "time" magazine man of the year. >> you think obama is upset he didn't win the man of the year award from time. i mean, nobody outdoes him in anti-capitalism. >> the pope himself spoke about this at length. how can it be he wrote that it is not a news item when, an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two

points. >> citing the pope, his new best friend, the pope is ripping america. the pope ripping capitalism, the pope ripping trickle down economics. and obama is having -- >> i'm a little concerned about who this pope is. >> he has had some statements that to me sound kind of liberal. it has take enemy aback. >> well it is, pope francis is liberal. wait until she find out what jesus has been saying. >> this is just pure marxism. coming out of the mouth of the pope. >> are you a good jesuit or bad jesuit? >> joining me now, sister simone campbell. nuns on the bus. a social justice lobby. and msnbc contributor.

sister simone. rush limbaugh says that the pope is a pure marxist that he is ripping america that he is ripping capitalism. is that the pope's new mission to attack america and american capitalism? >> absolutely not. and if, rush had actually read the document that was issued last week, he would see that the pope is really talking about returning to the roots of who we are. america is about community of people who work for the common good. and that's what the pope is challenging us to do. and pointing out that -- that the incredible income and wealth disparity in our nation and in our world is undermining the security for all of us. undermining everyone's human dignity. calling us to move away from that. it is really to return to our roots and be faithful. >> are you surprised that limbaugh and beck and these people are instantly

politicizing the pope's language. it seems to me it is not helpful to their cause to bring additional attention to what the pope is saying. he criticized sourpusses. the word he used. maybe the guys took it just personally. i think he is a threat to a certain kind of conservative. not every kind of conservative. but he specifically talks about, in criticism of those who deify the market. these, a lot of this words, particularly his direct critique of, of trickle down economics are a direct challenge to what a lot of the folks believe. he is not a marxist. he is anti-materialist. a christian. he behaves like one. which is, you know, not, which is not always common among people who call themselves christian. but, the language that he is putting out there.

is dangerous to those who say -- there is no role for government in helping the poor. and we should always rely on the market. he is saying that's not enough. some conservatives are willing to accept that. but the guys clearly aren't. >> one of my favorite things he has said, e.j., you quoted recently. the pope said if, one has the the answers to all of the questions. that is the proof. that god is not with him. and, sister simone i can tell him. rush's official position that they he has the answers to all of the questions. the official position of his show. >> an attack on everyone who appears on cable television. >> i think we all have to be careful of that one. >> absolutely. >> but sister. the -- the trickle down economics to hear a pope, speaking specifically about that. is surprising. it is surprising to me. did you see this coming, with pope francis? i didn't know who he was.

having a concern for the poor. i hoped economic analysis would be with that, with concern for the poor. but to see it laid out so forcefully in the new document is really -- uplifting because, what he does is, he calls us all to conversion in some fashion. that we all need to be stretched and challenged. and then he has got this lovely paragraph where he says if, if i make people upset with this analysis, you know, i just invite you to a deeper understanding to be in relationship and free you from your chains of servitude and isolation. it is all of us together. >> e.j., we all remember, sister simone and nuns on the bus. do you think there is any

possibility that, that the pope maybe sister simone had more impact on the cardinals who elected pope francis than we thought. but i think you are seeing some conservatives, my colleague, you are seeing it among conservatives in the church. some are critical of the pope. others know that he is really drawing on, as you said earlier what jesus said. i sure wish, pope francis would get them to withdraw all the

cuts to food stamps they want to make. i suspect his words will be used as the debate goes forward. >> e.j.dion, sister campbell. thank you for joining us. >> great being with you. >> coming up, my report, very personal report from birmingham, alabama, where i met a group of kids who have been working very hard to help other kids on the other side of the world. >> they don't need to become doctors and nurses. they don't need to become great students. it is good enough for me to make their day better. that's good enough for me. [ male announcer ] how can power consumption in china,

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to read and consider carefully before investing. >> we know a little more tonight about what happened on board air force one. during the trip to south africa. thanks to white house photographer, pete sousa. they joined the president and first lady for the trip to nelson mandela's memorial. on the way there, president obama worked on his speech with ben rhode. and former president bush showed off photos of his new paintings to the first lady and hillary clinton. the bushs joined the obamas for dinner in the air force one conference room. on the way home. up next, my incredible weekend in birmingham, alabama. i want to church twice on sunday. two services at the same church. and i have never had a greater day in church. that's next.

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>> i was a little boy when i first heard about birmingham, alabama. and nothing i heard was good. police were using fire hoses to attack civil rights protesters. and later that same year, the 16th street baptist church was bombed. killing four little girls. so when i was invited to birmingham last weekend, the first place i went was the birmingham civil rights institute which has extraordinary exhibitions telling the story of that terrible time. i saw the shoes, denise mcnair was wearing when she was killed in that bombing. i walked across the street from the institute and saw where the

bomb was placed. at the 16th street baptist church. dr. martin luther king, spoke many times, from the 6th avenue. baptist church pulpit. during the bad times in birmingham. the cub scouts wanted to present me with a check for the fund. kids in need of desks a partnership i created with unicef to provide jobs to workers in malawi. building desks that we then delivered to african schools that have no desks.

we had no idea what the 14 boys, ages 6 to 11 had been able to achieve. when we saw what the cub scouts at the 6th avenue baptist church had accomplished in their year of work, on behalf of kids, their age, halfway around the world. sure felt like a miracle to us. >> i will love you, jesus. hallelujah, lord. i love you. more than money. more than -- more than anything.

>> good morning. you know i -- i flew down here from my hometown of boston yesterday. i thought just to feel at home i will bring the weather with me. so you are welcome for that. and i do so feel at home here this morning. because we share so many beliefs. and we share so many values. we share so many ambitions and hopes. one thing we also share is that we all here believe in miracles. >> nobody likes when they sit on the floor, so -- the kids in africa, wouldn't like to sit on the floor. >> your paperwork will be messy.

>> i said -- we believe in miracles. some people have to believe in miracles because they don't think they have ever seen miracles. this is the first time in the city of birmingham. is a miracle. what happened in this city during my lifetime is a miracle. that some people in this room made that happen. the life of nelson mandela is a miracle. we saw that. i will tell you a personal miracle in my life. to be standing here, to be invited into a congregation as a guest to speak here. that puts my name on the long list of distinguished guests who have spoken to the congregation and that is the only list that i

will ever share. with the reverend dr. martin luther king jr. that is as great an honor as i could ever dream of. and i never did dream of it. let me tell you about a miracle that i am hoping for. it's that miracle that, that occurs in the educational context. and i know that -- in a classroom if you could put a desk there. if you could maybe -- just improve that student's line of sight to the blackboard, if you could just finally have that student making eye contact with the teacher, all day. we don't know what miracle could happen. we don't know if that student who was drifting away -- suddenly becomes a good student. we don't know if that student doesn't become a great student. if that student doesn't become a nurse. a doctor.

or the next nelson mandela. because there has to be a next nelson mandela coming from some where, some place, in some one of the classrooms. >> we had bake sales, spaghetti sales. and car washes. and -- and every month we did a different project. and the boys were there every step of the way. >> she talked to us. asked us. yes we wanted to. it touched us that they needed desks in africa. makes me feel like a hero in a way. >> on behalf of the sixth avenue baptist church. we would like to present the check to the pac fund.

>> that act of kindness, that act of goodness, to take these children off the floor for that seven hours that they're in those classrooms, to give them that feeling of a real educational setting, to give them that little stage on which to perform -- that's good enough for me. that's good enough. they don't need to become doctors and nurses. they don't need to become great students. it's good enough for me to make their day better. that's good enough for me. but right here. in this room. in this city of miracles, we can talk about miracles.

and we can think about the miracle of 18,000 dollars which is the single largest contribution the kind fund has ever received from any group -- anywhere in the three years we have been doing this. that's the biggest one. that check is a miracle. with all my heart. >> with all my soul. when they see your desks that you paid for. when they see those arrive at their school, it will be the first desks they have ever seen in their lives. that is the miracle that you will deliver into their lives, the day that truck arrives. they will greet it as a miracle. i can tell you right now what

they're going to do. do it every time. the truck pulls into the school. they come streaming out of the classrooms and they are singing. they are filled with song. just the way we are filled with song here this morning. because they are joyful. and they are thankful. and you -- have delivered a miracle into their lives. thank you very much. very, very, very much. >> every time i tune into lawrence o'donnell's show and see those kids in the desks. i will be able to say to my boys a job well done. i am proud of them. i am extremely proud of my church congregation.

around here you don't make excuses. you make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up, and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it when you know where to look. [ male announcer ] new vicks dayquil severe. helps relieve your ugliest, nastiest, roughest, toughest cold symptoms. new dayquil severe. with maximum symptom fighting ingredients. ♪ new vicks nyquil severe. helps relieve your ugliest,

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>> see the full version of what i had to say at birmingham 6th avenue church at our website, last word, and we'll be putting up more video of the cub scouts and the other people there who we visited with at, 6th avenue. and you saw there that we raised from the cub scouts, their amazing work. 18,067. for the kind fund. since last night's show, we raised another $31,090. for girls high school scholarships in malawi. and an additional $36,471 overnight for desks that will be made in malawi. and delivered to the schools there.

with your generosity, work, of the cub scouts at 6th avenue baptist church. we have now raised, look at this number, $5,999,470. i think you can guess where the number is going to be tomorrow night. you can contribute at lastworddeskmsnbc.com. have a holiday gift notice sent to any one on your gift list saying you have donated a, a gift off to the kind fund in his or her name. and fashionable...hat's styh especially in my line of work. now do you have a little lemonade stand? guys, i'm in fashion! but i also need amazing tech too... like active park assist... it practically parks itself. and what color would you like? i'll have my assistant send you over some swatches...

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hundreds of dollars switching to geico? ronny:i'd say happier than the pillsbury doughboy on his way to a baking convention. get happy. get geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. >> turns out the real controversy to emerge from yesterday's service for mandela involves the man doing the sign language. >> finally, mandela understood the ties that bind the human spirit. >> he was there even when president obama spoke. today, outrage from deaf and hearing impaired south africans who say the so-called interpreter was a complete fraud. >> i couldn't bear to watch what he would create out of it. and so -- it's, zero percent accuracy. >> of the only legitimate sign sheep saw ironically was for the word help. on south african television, which uses its own interpreter for the deaf, the difference was

apparent. angry viewers pounced on twitter. please get rid of this clown interpreter. he is making of the signs. have no idea how he got the job. the man at the center of it all, is not talking tonight. but he has been used as an interpreter before, including last year, the south african president, jacob zuma. professional whose have reviewed his work insist he is not communicating any known sign language. the government which presumably hired the interpreter for mandela's service is looking into the matter, but has been busy dealing with arrangements for mandela's funeral. to date white house weighed in. >> it would be a shame, an individual who is on stage, in any way detracted from the importance of that event and importance of president mandela's legacy. >> we asked david buxton of the british deaf association for his interpretation. >> he is making it up. no sense to what he is doing. i can't see any meaning to what

he is doing. >> a moment in history. lost in translation. with the whole world watching. ron allen, nbc news, pretoria. chris hayes is up next. mutiny of the wacko birds. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews out in columbus, ohio. let's start tonight with this. it looks like some of the wacko birds didn't get the message. remember how the right wing and in fact the republican party took that nasty hit during can the october government shutdown? how it's been the one time that the president's party was up near the angels. someone didn't get the message.