good afternoon, i'm ari melber, this is "the experience," it is friday december 20th. the president just turned the page on 2014 and told the white house press corps, big things are popping. >> it's the most wonderful press conference of the year. 2014 can be a breakthrough year for america. both parties in both houses of congress came together to pass a budget. it's probably too early to declare an outbreak of bipartisanship. >> has it been the worst year of your presidency? . there are areas where there have been some frustration. a lot of our legislative initiatives in congress have not moved forward as rapidly as i would like. if i was interested in polling, i wouldn't have run for president. it's not that i don't engage in a lot of self reflection here. i'm sure that i will have even better ideas after a couple days of sleep and sun.

of course, the president takes off in a few hours for its annual hawaiian holiday after wrapping up a year-end president conference a short time ago. and before taking questions on a wide range of tough topics, the president led with the gift of good economic news. >> this morning we learned over the summer our economy grew at its strongest pace in nearly two years. the unemployment rate has steadily fallen to its the lowest point in five years. our businesses are positioned for new growth and new jobs. and i firmly believe that 2014 can be a break through year for america. >> we are going look at those numbers today. the president also announced half a million people have enrolled for coverage on healthcare.g healthcare.gov, bringing the total enrollment numbers to more than 1 million people to date. it wasn't long, of course, before the president did face some heat on the latest change to the affordable care act, an easing of the mandate for people who did face cancellations in

their individual policies. >> what we are constantly doing is looking, is this working the way it's supposed, and if there are adjustments that can be made to smooth out the transition, we should make them. despite all that, it's working. and again, you don't have to take my word for it. we've got a couple million people who are going to have health insurance just in the first three months. >> and we go to the white house where nbc's kristen welker is holding it down. kristen, what did we learn today? >> reporter: well, i think there were a couple headlines that came out of today's press conference, ari. i would say the first one relates to the nsa, president obama signalling that he is seriously considering making some significant changes to the government's surveillance program. he made two comments that stood out to me. one, there's more than one way to skin a cat. and also, just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. now, of course, those comments come after earlier this week a task force made several

recommendations, 46 of them, in fact, about how the government should pare down its surveillance program. i'm told while president obama is in hawaii, he will be reviewing those suggestions and trying to come up with some of his own proposals for how to change the surveillance program. and we'll get that announcement in january. so i think that's the first headline. second headline, of course, has to do with health care. you talked about it, ari, the fact that president obama signalling that en rollment the has been more robust in these recent weeks, trying to turn the page on this incredibly difficult chapter for his administration, saying that now more than 1 million people have enrolled in healthcare.gov. he rejected a question from our own nbc's chuck todd, when chuck asked him, haven't you essentially gotten rid of the individual mandate, the core of the health care law. the president rejected that notion, saying, no. however, it was important to make health care more affordable to more people who are struggling with some of these challenges of enrolling. so i think the goal of this

press conference was to turn the page when julie pace asked him if this was the worst year of his presidency, he said that's not the way i think about it. but undoubtedly, ari, he would like to see a different 2014. >> we're going to dive into some of those answers but i appreciate your point and i thought that was an important exchange on health care and the changes some have been calling on the president to achieve. thanks for giving us your report today. >> absolutely. thank you. >> we go now to our panel. here in new york, perry bacon, political editor of thegrio.com, and center for budget and policy priorities and former beam administration official. jared, people know that by now. perry, i want your thoughts on this press conference, the president obviously trying to say that even if you are concerned about some of the government's activities right now, from health care to the nsa, he is in charge, he is hands-on, and as the world changes, he's changing with it. >> exactly. he's trying to get away. he acknowledged in a bunch of ways, joking otherwise, not a

great year for him. but he talked about two issues i thought were important. kristen mentioned the nsa changes. the second big issue, there has been talk from the republicans about trying to do another big debt ceiling debate with threats and so on. he was very emphatic in saying -- he said it before, but very emphatic in a new context, saying no, i will not negotiate over the debt ceiling. politically, i think the important question is, julie pace, good question, thought, was this the worst year of your presidency. he said a lot of words, the one word he did not use in that answer was no. he definitely acknowledged this was a hard year. and i think it's important to be real about where things are. >> i think you do have to be real. everyone understands there has been a real climate here that's been difficult. and jared, to those questions about the debt ceiling, i think that's fair. he also implicitly and i think correctly criticized anyone in washington, including the press, that wants to treat that as a serious issue, and we have seen the republicans fold on the debt ceiling. also, jared, these questions that come up in the press

conference are all about framing. and it seemed to me, there was a lot of framing about the politics of the president versus the tough situation that he faces politically. and he criticized those premises, because he's basically saying he's way more concerned about what's facing the american people, the unemployment insurance vote, a lot of substance over this endless political framing that we see in d.c. >> well, that's very important, especially for anyone outside the beltway who is listening to him. he's always in those press conferences talking both to the reporters but over their heads to the public, as well. look, on the debt ceiling, one thing he was reacting to, i don't think we have mentioned it yet, was after this kind of mini kum ba yah moment with the budget deal, you had representative ryan very powerful budget guy in the house, saying on the sunday talk shows that we, the republican caucus, are going to extract a lot from this debt ceiling. that is, kind of going right back into the gridlock partisan

politics that led to the shutdown and all that -- all that trouble earlier. so when the president says i'd like to play this the same way i played it before, in terms of nonnegotiation, i take him very seriously. i'm sure he means it. >> yeah. i mean, he could have also done the shorter answer to that, which is no, next question. and that's about where we're at there. when you were in the white house, would you hear the president ever voice frustrations with these kind of questions? >> all of the time. now, i will say, you know, you raise a very interesting point. it must be -- i think endlessly repeated -- that the debt ceiling was increased 18 times under president reagan, something like seven times under clinton, with none of this kind of, quote, hostage-taking or, you know, gun to your head bargaining. none of that stuff. because that is just absolutely nuts. it's not fiscal policy. it's just kind of excessive

political craziness that we were actually threatening default. so we didn't talk about it as much back then, because it wasn't a tactic. >> yeah. no, i think that's absolutely right. and perry, moving beyond that to the nsa, what struck me about what the president said, which i don't think people always give enough credit for -- i've been critical of the way the nsa has sort of gone rogue at times. but what he basically said was, i'm taking this seriously. this was not just another commission that was designed to die on the vine in d.c. i get that people are cynical. but i actually -- he said he put in people who know something about this space on the privacy and the security side. and he promised a fairly major announcement in january, which raises the bar on himself. he must be planning to do something. >> exactly. think about where we are when the snowden leaks first came out. the president was very defensive. said i'm not snooping on anyone and kind of said the end of the subject. but he's definitely moved in a profound way. he's accepted some of the criticism. he's heard it.

and today he basically -- he all but said, i'm going to have implement big changes in this. he has raised the bar. there will be changes next month. he wasn't ready to announce them yet. but he's definitely moved on this issue and responded in a way. >> i thought it was a type of leadership when he said, look, just because he we can do something doesn't mean we should. that goes to the hard part of this debate, what kind of security balance do we want to have? and gets away from the sort of binary distinction you have when you say, look, if you don't stand by the nsa 100%, you're not surrenderous aboserious abo security. i think to some degree, understandably sidetracked by some other priorities, including the aeconomy, the nsa is off doing this stuff, including spying on people that apparently he didn't know about. and he is sort of saying no, we're going to bring this back and have this debate, both within the administration, because congress won't do it, and apparently in january with more flesh on that bone. perry bacon, thanks for being here in new york. and jared, stay with us. we're going to talk to you more

on those economic numbers, which if you believe your old colleagues in the white house, people saying are looking up. coming up, the new year's resolutions as we heard from the president late this afternoon. there may be plenty for him to consider over winter break. the nsa, as i mentioned, the health care, and, of course, he didn't forget the folks standing right in front of him. >> my new year's resolution to to be nicer to the white house press corps. you know? my customers can shop around-- see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care. but with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and estimates for how much i'll pay. that helps me, and my guys, make better decisions. i don't like guesses with my business,

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welcome back. we are looking at the news conference that the president held today. it was just a short time ago.

and he touched on every topic, domestic and international, from these revised gdp numbers that were released today to reforming the nsa to negotiating with iran. at the heart of his comments, though, was a belief that the health care rollout and the economy, like his administration, are turning a corner. to take a look at that, we have kathryn ample, the "new york times", sarah cliff of "washington post" and welcome back our buddy, jared bernstein. >> thank you. >> i want to start with gdp numbers. kathryn, it's fairly encouraging, according to some. you focus on the fact that health care spending is growing, and in effect, the revised health care numbers was a big part of why we have higher gdp growth than a lot of people expected. can you explain that? >> so the bureau of economic analysis releases a few different takes at the gdp numbers, and usually the number that comes out, the third time around, doesn't get a lot of attention. this one did. because it was revised way up. the number was pretty strong. and it was mostly driven or at

least largely driven by a big revision upward in health care spending, which is kind of a double-edged sword from the obama administration's perspective. because on the one hand, they have been touting the fact that health care spending growth has been slowing, perhaps in part due to obamacare. but on the other hand, you know, if this is driving consumer spending, that's good for gdp growth, and maybe we should take consumer spending where we can get it, basically, given where the economy is. >> right. and the other thing the white house often points out is the overall creep of health care costs is still not as bad as it was. >> right. >> they cite aca for that. i know in your article you mention that -- the jury is out on that, or at least we have to give it more time. sara, let me take a look, though, at the health care piece. your publication, wonk blog at the "washington post" describes the newest changes to the health law as the first, quote, crack, in the individual mandate. let's take a listen, though, to

how president obama defined the change. >> bottom line also is that we've got several million people who are going to have health care that works. and when i look at the landscape for next year, what i say to myself is, we're poised to do really good things. >> sara, will you explain that to us? you guys see the crack, he is saying that actually he's still got a net gain, a march of more people covered. >> sure. i think you can say that both things are true. you're really seeing a ramp-up in enrollment under the health care law. and this is what the white house was hoping for and expecting, that enrollment would start slow in october. arguably slower than they expected because of the healthcare.gov problems. but then really grow quickly in december. you're seeing that in healthcare.gov, where the president said over 500,000 people have already enrolled this month. you're seeing that in states like california, that is 15,000 people signing up each day.

at the same time, though, you see the administration making some last-minute changes to the health care law to help out the people who have arguably been one of the most frustrated groups, the people who have insurance and are having trouble purchasing a policy and what the president did for that group of people was essentially exempt them from the individual mandate. so i think you are seeing changes to the law and changes to the individual mandate at the same time that you're seeing enrollment really go up very quickly. >> yeah. and jared, that really goes to an important political point that you don't hear as much from the white house on the record. but when you talk to people in background, what they will say and they don't want to look like they're competing for sympathy, but they say come on, we get hammered over and over for being rigid on these rules. and then if we do, look in a cohesive way at what's good for policy, knowing we'll be criticized for it, and we change the rules a little bit. we get hammered for that too. >> well, that's to be expected. i mean, i don't think people who

are manifesting deep political opposition to the president and the administration are really thinking that much about what's the best policy. they're trying to figure out what's the best way to politically bash the administration over a law where the rollout has not been good, and where its popularity has been in question for a while. i want to make a comment, if i might, on the gdp numbers. i think they're important. it's true, this number has a 4% handle on it. we haven't seen that for a while. that's a big leap. but about 40% of the accelerati acceleration, the speed-up of gdp in q3 over the previous quarter has to do with inventory buildup. that's not a bad thing, but typically means that the next quarter, there will be a bit of a pullback. also, on the health care spending, it's very interesting. yes, health care costs, if you look at health care inflation that's down, consumer spending is up. part of that, and i think sarah would probably back me up on this, part of that is because people are spending more out of

pocket. higher deductibles. that lowers health care inflation. it can raise health care spending by consumers. >> yeah, and kathryn, i want to also bring you back in. we were talking about this earlier and how much of the consumer spending you can look at beyond the inventory point, which is business speak but important. how much of the consumer spending reflects the fact that people are not as worried about washington and the debt crisis and other manufactured crisis as economists had initially projected? >> you know,it still hard to say, because the actual government shutdown, which would have been the real crisis point, you know, in the minds of consumers, anyway, and probably businesses, happened this current quarter, not last quarter. but there was a lot of worry, at least, among economists that talk about continued government dysfunction would still weigh on consumers in the previous quarter. you know, basically the end of the summer, early fall. the fact that consumer spending was still pretty strong is encouraging. there may be some fatigue about

all of this dysfunction in washington. >> you're talking about drama fatigue. >> yes. drama fatigue. exactly. exactly. you know, so maybe a lot of these concerns about what happened in earlier in the fall, as well as during the shutdown, were kind of overblown just because consumers have said we've seen this story before. you know, that's still not a good reason to continue it having gridlock. and to continue threatening things like government shutdowns and heaven forbid, a debt ceiling breach. but, you know, it's possible that concerns earlier might have been overblown, just because consumers have heard this before. >> right. or they watch enough news that they learn that it was all bluffing, and so they -- you know, they could adjust. >> it wasn't entirely bluffing. there was actually a government shutdown that happened. >> on the debt ceiling side. and yes, people affected by the government shutdown, which was significant and we have covered repeat

repeatedly, people connected to the public sector, that took a bite out of it, whether they planned on it or not. kathryn ample, sarah cliff and jared bernstein, thanks for watching us through some of these numbers. and coming up, we've got a question for you that's pretty important. is the president leading us into potentially the start of a new era in the war on trugs and one where the punishment actually fits the crime? say with us for that story. if i can impart one lesson to a

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♪ ♪ if i was a flower growing wild and free ♪ ♪ all i'd want is you to be my sweet honeybee ♪ ♪ and if was a tree growing tall and green ♪ ♪ all i'd want is you to shade me and be my leaves ♪ grown in america. picked & packed at the peak of ripeness. the same essential nutrients as fresh. del monte. bursting with life™. president obama now describes income inequality as the defining issue of our time. senate democrats are picking up that fight, calling on republicans to take a stand on hiking the minimum wage. and in real dollars, the minimum wage in the u.s. has fallen so low that raising it would help workers and the economy without risking hurting the job market at all. as the conservative economist magazine points out, research

shows relatively low rates of a minimum wage are not harmful to the job market and the economists contrasted the very low rates we have in this country to some in the european states. that's a point that imf director, christine lagarde made in a new interview with abc's david gregory. >> you see the minimum wage fight in this country going anywhere? do you think it has an important impact on the economy, raising the minimum wage, the president, the pope have talked about income inequality being a huge problem in this country and around the world. >> income inequality around the world is a big issue. and we have done some work and there's a clear indication that rising inequality leads to less sustainable growth. not to mention the fact that the social fabrics of society can be -- can be at stake. so reducing inequality, making sure that people have a job, making sure that there is growth, there is adequate

redistribution through various systems, is important. >> a piece of an interesting international perspective. and you can actually watch the full interview and hear more of that -- what lagarde had to say about our unemployment and the minimum wage fight all this sunday on nbc's "meet the press." coming up for us, at age 24, he was a nonviolent drug offender sentenced to three life terms. next we talk to a journalist whose persistent work resulted in great news yesterday for mr. clarence aaron and seven others. stay with us. life with crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis is a daily game of "what if's". what if my abdominal pain and cramps come back? what if the plane gets delayed? what if i can't hide my symptoms? what if? but what if the most important question is the one you're not asking? what if the underlying cause of your symptoms

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welcome back. now we turn to some decisive action taken by president obama this week. on thursday, the president commuted the prison sentences of eight people who faced fairly long terms for drug crimes, many of which are no longer on the books. the president's action means

that clarence aaron will get out of jail. he is a man who was sent to jail in 1993 on harsh drug charges. aaron was not convicted of drug possession, purchase or sale. but he was linked to people who were. and he ended up receiving a life sentence. his case was spotlighted by msnbc and reporters at "front line" as a heartbreaking example of the excesses of the war on drugs. in fact, aaron's case became one of the stories from america's incarceration crisis that has led many to rethink our war on drugs as people ask, how can we send so many young men and disproportionately poor and black men to prison for decades or for life for nonviolent offenses or for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? there are several factors, of course, that drive this kind of punitive set of policies. the rise of plea bargaining over jury trials, explosion of mandatory minimum sentencing at the state and federal level and old laws that publish drugs like

crack far more than cocaine, some of which are no longer on the books. beyond taking executive action, the obama administration is also advocating reform to drug sentencing in congress. attorney general, eric holder, laid out the stakes in august. >> as a so-called war on drugs enters its fifth decade, we need to ask whether it has been truly effective. too many americans go to too many prisons for far too long and for no truly good law enforcement reason. >> joining us now for an important discussion, managing editor for msnbc.com and author of that groundbreaking series on presidential pardons, "shades of mercy," and michael skolnick and editor of globalgrind.com. thank you for being here. daphne, i want to start with you. you have been working on this reporting for a long time. tell us everything you know after this decision yesterday. >> well, i think that you really

kind of bring everyone right to the place they need to be, which is that clarence aaron was an extraordinary story to begin with. because of the length of sentence, because of where he was, sort of in the middle of a drug conspiracy, as you said, not the buyer, the user, the seller, the supplier. just somebody who introduced a couple people, and then became part of a conspiracy. those were the facts when i first got to his case and his story. but what really changed the game for me was when i learned that he had tried to get a pardon at the end of the bush administration. he tried to get a sentence commuteded so he could leave prison early after 15 years of serving. and the pardon attorney prevented his release. withheld facts in the case from the white house. and this was, of course, unknown to the white house for some time, until we sort of uncovered the facts and were able to say this is a guy who a., look at how he was treated in the system anyway to begin with. and b., when he tries to become a recipient of presidential

mercy, one person stands in his way and prevents him from doing that. so the result of our work is that there was an investigation by the inspector general, confirming the findings so that the pardon attorney had misled the white house so that the pardon attorney did not live up to his responsibilities to the president of the united states. the white house knew this. they asked him to recuse himself. they did a new review of the case. and then, of course, we know what happened yesterday, which is that the president decided to release clarence aaron from his life sentence. >> i understand you've heard from his family, as you have been on top of this. >> yeah. they're elated. incredibly emotional. and i know that he is too. this is something he has been waiting for, even a year ago. you know, when the findings first came out about what was happening inside the pardon's attorney to try and prevent his release. he was hopeful. >> and daphne, what you talk about is that feeling that the system isn't working, and it isn't working fairly at each step. and michael, this is something that your work and your documentary look at. and i just want -- people know, but i want to remind people if

we put up statistics here on the screen, hispanic and black americans far more likely to receive a mandatory minimum sentence for the same types of crimes. speak to that predicate issue in how we end up with this unjust prison population in the first place. >> yeah, i think, ari, as we look at the criminal justice system as a whole, the whole system doesn't work. and what's been incredibly encouraging over the past nine or ten months from the white house and department of justice, the president is saying enough is enough, i'm going to put out a bold statement, which he did yesterday, by pardoning eight nonviolent drug offenders, knowing there are thousands more who should be pardoned, but challenging the congress to do their job. challenging the congress to once and for all pass law that reformed these drug sentencing -- mandatory minimum sentences that just don't work. and as you said, you pointed out in your graph, they're not just unjust because they don't work. they're unjust because they're racially dispro portion national, setting black and brown people to prison.

93% of drug cases in this country take a plea bargain, because they have this threat of this mandatory minimum sentence, and they threaten these young guys. >> it's hanging over them and the congress, michael. when we look back in the '80s when these mandatory minimums were instituted at the federal level, both parties overwhelmingly supported them. and now we're seeing something very interesting, which is members of both parties saying this has gotten out of control. faith, take a listen to what senator rand paul said at a hearing speaking to this issue, and he is back, a bipartisan proposal, with democrat pat leahy, to change these mandatory minimums. take a listen. >> if i told you that one out of three african-american males is forbidden by law from voting, you might think i was talking about jim crow, 50 years ago. yet today, a third of african-american males are still prevented from voting, because of the war on drugs. >> faith? >> we'll call the war on drugs, the war on black and brown people. no group has been impacted more

against these policies than the african-american community. the racial disparities are completely staggering. but just stepping outside of the statistics, as a prosecutor here in manhattan, the first time i walked in drug court, i was simply stunned. day after day, i was assigned to drug court and 95% of the room would be filled with african-american and hispanic defendants. and the aclu has put out the statistics. white people actually use drugs more, but the statistics are that black people and african-americans are arrested and incarcerated ten times at a higher rate than white americans. so the statistics are out there. we know the problems are there. as prosecutors, we see it every day. it's just a rolling and revolving door of people coming in and out of the courtroom. and we have taken people who really need help and need treatment and we arin course rating them. >> and it goes, faith, to agenda-setting, as well. your reporting as a piece of this, as of other people's work, we heard a press conference where people talked about what the president has done, right? this issue is still not on the

agenda of a lot of the reporters in that room. >> that's right. i think that they're thinking much more about sort of policy in washington and politics and really not about how some of those decisions that are made inside the white house either through executive clemency or urging the congress to step up on mandatory minimums is really affecting everyday lives of millions of americans. there are so many people in this country who are incarcerated. even as the aclu said, more than 3,000 people who are serving life sentences for nonviolent crimes, many more who are stuck in the crack cocaine sentencing pipeline who everyone agrees are serving sentences that no one thinks they should be serving and yet are stuck there. >> or rolled back. >> right. i think the president is very, very wise to have pushed on congress to make changes. i think he also has the authority to do more. i think this is a president who said yes to eight people yesterday. and this is a president who has said no to 5,000 oh others who have sought early release from prison in -- during his presidency. so i think that he has powers. this may be a test for him of

how people receive those powers. but i think that it's been positive so far. and he could do more. >> and i think that context is an possibility place, not to leave the story because you have been reporting a long time and you and michael as well. and we're going keep on this. so this is -- not a story we're going to drop. daphne linser, faith and michael, thank you for your time. appreciate it very much. and you stud shud stay with it us, because we have the day's top lines straight ahead. ould st us, because we have the day's top lines straight ahead. ♪ this holiday season, our priority is you ♪

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in the last year, it's starting to add up. >> why? >> he really does not have a lot to show for himself in 2013. >> why, why, why? >> the common thread with all the issues is that house republicans or senate republicans are blocking all of them. >> whopping 67% of registered voters now want the health care law to be delayed for a year. >> just one poll. those things aren't scientific. >> nearly 70% of americans say they're premiums will, n., increase in the year 2014. >> but if you took it and put it on its axis this way. >> people found it very important they keep their health care plan. >> four out of five people point the finger directly at the president. >> 60% of the people believe that the earth is 5,000 years old or something. that doesn't mean that it's right. >> the economics of obamacare wait a moment work. >> they're all out of control. >> it's imploding from the inside. it is a rolling financial collapse. >> i don't know what to do. >> astounding 7 2% of adults believe big government is the

biggest threat to them. >> is it possible that barack obama could be a more effective spokesman and do more to help the conservative cause than any of you in the right ever have. >> that is a repudiation of liberalism, pure and simple. >> republicans have tried to turn liberal into a bad word. >> summing up, the country is repudiating obamacare. americans do not want big government. and a christmas holiday is becoming more secular. >> let's talk politics with our panel. we have host of "up" with steve kornacki. his name is steve kornacki and msnbc contributor professor james peterson. welcome to you both. steve, on the politics here, you see a lot of people feeling very excited over in the conservative conversation. not only that the president's overall approval is sagging, which we know and happens a lot in the second term. but also the idea that some of the premises of conservative thought are being endorsed, especially these gallup numbers showing an all-time record-breaking high of people fearing big government. >> right.

well, and all of this is tied to the health care law. so i mean, you can look at this a couple ways. 2013 you can say was a disappointing year for president obama because legislatively speaking, he didn't get anything big through this year. had trouble with background checks, immigration we form. we'll see what the next couple years hold on that front. he did get something really big through at the start of his presidency when he had majorities in the senate and house, big majorities in both chambers. the health care law. and so now, sure, it makes sense in the light of the rocky rollout, rocky -- may be one of the more mild terms, it makes sense you see all of these sort of devastating seeming poll numbers. but again, the difference here, this is a law that's on the books. this is something being implemented. you're starting to see enrollment numbers go up, starting to see good stories. you're starting to see some of the benefits. and so in this moment, in this moment of after the month from hell for health care implementation, it's very easy for conservatives and for republicans to stand up there and say this is a repudiation of liberalism because this whole law is coming apart.

also not that hard to see a future two years from now when all of these rollout problems are at a distant, distant past. and in a healthy number of people enrolled in this thing, functioning exchanges, functioning marketplace. and no longer -- >> the marketplace may repudiation ate the reation, if people are worried about their premiums going up, other problems empirical in nature don't bear out. sometimes when i go back home over the holidays i see old friends i haven't seen in a long time and they ask about politics because they know that's my thing. and if you already have a disagreement like i think the president is doing pretty good and they say he's not, there is one disagreement, right? >> right. >> and then on top of the drinks disagreement, you have to play the role of the fact-checker and i heard all the policies are chanceled. and actually, it's more complicated, the churn in the market was already 30% so over two years, 60%. so this isn't that different. as soon as you go down that road, you sound like the guy trying to disagree and correct. and that's a hard place for a

liberal to be. >> yeah. here's the thing, especially as we're just on the precipice of a lot of holiday dinners and time with family and friends. avoid political conversations. and that goes double for those of us who are media pundits. because at the end of the day, most people are not concerned about what we refer to as the wes, particularly obamacare. and reflects the rhetoric of the media, rhetoric of the right, the rhetoric of the president's disaddress tractors, and part and parcel of our political system. i don't think the president is too mad about that or we should be upset about that. but when it it comes to being at home or talking with your friends about politics, if you get too mathematical with them or start to use too much polling data or too much what we refer to as going into the weeds, a lot of times they're going to tune out and say there you go with your sort of nerdy pundit re. >> steve kornacki and anyone who watches weekend television knows this, you live in the weeds. >> well, i'll tell you, we are a

big thanksgiving family political fight, over a municipal parking ban for the winter months. that was what everybody was worked up about. it wasn't health care. but what strikes me, i don't think -- and this is true for politics in general, whatever contentious issue it is. when you have to start going into the weeds to argue, you're never going to win. you're never going to win an individual scale for the personality reason you're talking about. you're also never going to win an en masse scale because when you have to go into the weeds to explain things, you don't move mass opinion that way. what moves mass opinion is the lived experience. this is -- an inexact parallel. i remember when the whole gay marriage debate was just starting, massachusetts made it legal, and the only thing you could think at the time this isn't going to happen in a year, two years. but the accumulation of years, people will look back and say all those dire warnings about how this was going to change the country for the worse forever, when people realize none of that came true, then they're going to

be totally fine. and you think of all these warnings about obamacare, all these warnings with the affordable care act. if you reach the point when you know what, people -- they say, that never actually happened. we're not living under socialism right now. >> that's a decent and measured piece of advice. and i think it's a way to have a very core dmkornacki holiday. so thank you both. don't miss "up with steve kornacki," he's going to have everyone's favorite political game, up against the clock. that will be every weekend morning, including tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. coming up, we're going to talk about a new report that actually confirms what a lot of people already suspected about the widespread voter fraud problem, quote, unquote. it doesn't really exist. stay with us for the numbers. we're aig. and we're here. to help secure retirements and protect financial futures. to help communities recover and rebuild.

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you know, if you listen to republican supporters of voter

i.d. laws, you would think this is all about integrity. >> it's not an unfair burden on people to get an i.d. to prove they are who they say they are. and it's a reasonable step that states may take and should take to preserve the integrity of the ballot. >> but a new nonpartisan study tells a different story. researchers from the university of massachusetts just published a study of all state restrictions on voting over a five-year period. and the data shows that bills to restrict voting rights were more likely to be reduced in states with larger african-american populations and higher minority turnout in the previous presidential election and states with low income turnout that had increased in recent elections. in other words, folks, if you go where poor and black voter turnout is rising, you are likely to find laws that make it harder to vote. you can see it all in one map from the study. many of the states which passed the most voter restrictions are in the south. joining us is cheryl lynn eiffel from the level defense fund and

zack roth, covering this issue. some people may say, hey, i think i already knew that. who cares? other than the fact that this is a problem. but doesn't the study help deal with one of the premises in this supreme court decision in shelby this year? >> absolutely. you know, the supreme court essentially decided the shell bee county voting case and said, you know, the south shouldn't be stigmatized anymore as the place where voter suppression or discrimination happens. you know, the 1960s are over. and now we're in a contemporary situation that doesn't require us to monitor what southern jurisdictions do as it relates to minority voters. but this study shows us exactly what we already knew intuitively and by anecdote but now we know through the study, that the efforts to suppress minority voters through these new voter suppression laws arose from nowhere. suddenly we had this concern about the quote, unquote, integrity of the ballot, arose precisely in those jurisdictions where officials were attempting,

essential essentially, to it suppress the minority vote, largely because they suspended these voters would vote democratic. and this voter suppression of minorities has been, you know, part of kind of the dna of the south for, you know, more than 100 years. >> i think that's so important, because the original voting rights act law, which some people feel we can still renew in congress, said to places that had a bad record, hey, you need a permission slip, because you have a bad record. zack, you've done some reporting recently that shows that some of these very concerns about integrity actually show that only 17 noncitizens in ohio out of millions, even made it to vote, which was supposed to be the thing they were trying to prevent. >> that's right. the ohio secretary of state just announced this week, 17 noncitizens voting, he found out through a very long investigation, out of finding 5.6 million votes cast. so i can't do that math that quickly but that's a tiny percentage. he had previously announced, aside from noncitizens, just the number of voter fraud of illegal voting was in the hundreds.

so, again, you just have a very infinish tess mal percentage. unfortunately, by holding a press conference and even announcing these figures, the likelihood is republicans are going to jump on that and say this is why we need to pass voter i.d. >> sure. the headline has the word in it, right, in the same way if you talk about the deficit a lot, people are thinking the deficit is going up even if it's about it going down. we listened to senator bernie sanders yesterday. take a listen to what he said. >> our republican friends are too cowardly in many respects, to have fair elections. and the only way they're going to win is if they understand to deny lower income people, people of color, older people, from the right to vote by making it harder and harder. >> you know, those comments actually speak to precisely why this issue is one all americans should care about. this is actually not in many ways a civil rights issue or a minority voters issue. it's a democracy issue. >> right. >> we're essentially operating in a system in which some people, because they fear they won't be able to win, have decided to suppress the vote,

the thing that marks us all as citizens. the one thing we all share equally have decided to try and suppress the vote in order to basically control the outcome. that's something we should all care about. i don't care if you live in maine or if you live in wyoming. you should care if essentially you have leaders, elected leaders, who are engaged in the process or at least willing to talk about the desire to suppress the vote. >> and that's something the naacp has argued for a long time. >> the legal defense fund, yes. >> are we a country where the voters pick the politicians or politicians pick the voters. thank you both for being with us. we are out of time on this segment. we're going to keep on it and we will be right back. my customers can shop around--

see who does good work and compare costs. it doesn't usually work that way with health care. but with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and estimates for how much i'll pay. that helps me, and my guys, make better decisions. i don't like guesses with my business, and definitely not with our health. innovations that work for you. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. i want to thank you for watching today. i'm ari melber. you can find me on twitttwitte twittetwitter

twitter @arimelber. we will be back on monday talking about last-minute gift ideas for the political junky in your life. coming up now, it's "the ed show" with ed schultz. . >> good morning americans, welcome to "the ed show," live from the north country. detroit lakes, minnesota. let's get to work. >> because congress didn't act, more than 1 million of their constituents will lose vital economic lifeline at christmastime. >> 1797, a bill to provide for the extension of certain unemployment benefits. >> the clock is tick itting. people got bills to pay. >> extended federal unemployment insurance benefits help these families pay for their rent. pay for their food and pay for their electricity. >> talk about hurting folks during the holidays. >> you don't look like yourself, jack. >> it's the holiday season. why doha