is 50% stronger than a full sheet of the bargain brand. it takes a strong towel to stretch a budget. bounty basic. the strong but affordable picker upper. and try charmin basic. hello, finney. from "duck dynasty" and why it struck such a nerve, a tea party gearing up for 2014. and guess what? there is a war on men. >> five debates this week as you know. the future of u.s. spying program. >> i'm taking this very seriously. >> he may be ready to scrap the phone record collection. >> the nsa overreached. >> there hasn't been one abuse ci cited. >> no scandal, no law breaking.

>> popular culture having a clash with politics. by this i mean "duck dynasty." >> this week we learned you can judge a book by its cover. >> "gq." why are you setting people up to try to take them down? >> there's a new level of bullying on the part of these militant activist groups. >> the notion this is an argument or debate about free speech is ridiculous. >> the point here is he's a bigot on many levels. >> my guess is something people will be talking about over the holidays and more than obamacare. all right. here's your christmas week forecast. we've got two big debates going on about american values. and who are we really as a country? first traditional values or straight up bigotry. as if comments in "gq" weren't enough there's new video of phil

robertson's bashing gay people more than two years ago. >> women with women, men with men, they committed indecent acts with one another, and they received in themselves the due penalty for their perversions. they're full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. they are insolent, arrogant, god haters. they are heartless. they are faithless. they are senseless. they are ruthless. they invent ways of doing evil. >> robertson's comments have touched a nerve on all sides of the debate which illustrates how much we're still grappling as a country with issues of change, race and identity. it's actually gotten more heated, i think, under a black president. now as the chorus of right wing voices defending robertson made clear, some people still don't get it. the good ole days of straight white male domination are gone. guess what?

they're gone for good. second issue up, security versus privacy. with president obama preparing to set a new course for the nsa after the holiday break. he faces big decisions about how much we're willing to compromise in order to boost intelligence operations and keep our nation safe. joining me now, victoria soto, professor at the university of texas at austin. joe madison, host of "the joe madison show" on sirius xm radio. you know we're going to talk about "duck dynasty." how can we not? i briefly want to talk about the nsa, vicky. the president basically took the advisory committee's recommendations with him to hawaii. he's obviously got to balance and figure out what's the right way? i think he believes sincerely that we are working towards the right balance between privacy and security. >> well, so it's been a year since the snowden event. the president in this past year really hasn't taken a firm

stand. i think the lack of firm stand is reflective of the fact that americans are of two minds when it comes to surveillance. gallup has done surveys that show over half of americans oppose such heavy surveillance techniques. but then another gallup poll a couple of weeks ago showed american internet users are not that concerned about snooping by the government. only about a third of americans are very concerned. i think that's why the president has been a little shifty on this. but the political pressure is mounting. we're seeing the court cases coming through. even shifting with regards to congress. with dianne feinstein saying, you know what? we do need to do something. i think with political pressure mounting, that's going to be the ticker that gets obama to change his position and take a firm stance. >> you know, joe, i actually -- i think the president has actually been -- this is a toughish shtough i issue, frankly. it's one of those issues where until you're in the office and actually have access to all of the information you don't have when you're a candidate, it's hard to know what that right balance is.

david sanger made a point this morning i thought was interesting which was, angela merkel of germany said, look, feeling like i'm being spied on makes me feel like growing up in eastern germany. i think that really got to the president. i think he really cares about these issues. i think it's a very tough one. >> it is a very tough one. and you've worked in -- with administrations. as you know, one of the main problems that you have, it's one thing to represent quote, unquote, the government. >> right. >> and at the same time, understand that we have this constitution. i think what has happened, of course, is that we forget how 9/11 really changed this country. and that that really has a lot to do with this. i think the president's going to have to take a stronger stand than he has on this. you know, someone said the other day that if you read the

constitution, leader is not written in it. but representative is. >> right. that's exactly right. >> and what people really, i think, no matter what these polls say, no one liked big brother. and we still have that -- that attitude. we who are older in the african-american community, we certainly have a problem because we know how it was to have -- to be spied upon if you were involved in the movement in the early days. and even during the anti-vietnam protest people were spied upon. i'm hoping the president will do what's right for the american people. >> i certainly believe he will. joe, you've given me the perfect, as usual, transition to our next topic. i just wanted to blow that one more time. we've got to talk about "duck dynasty." that's fun, right? in all seriousness, vicky, it's really struck a cord.

it was interesting that today on almost all of the sunday talk shows, it came up. you know, you had cracker barrel yesterday announce that they were going to remove some of the merchandising they've done with "duck dynasty." today they reversed course. this has clearly touched off a nerve, i think, in all parts of this country. >> at all levels, karen. i was just seeing in the news recently that walmart has been selling out of all the "duck dynasty" paraphernalia. when we're talking about the comments that were made, phil robertson's comments, very derogatory. very highly offensive. however, they are reflective of a big chunk of the american public. 17 states have legalized same-sex marriage. 33 states actively ban same-sex marriage. there's a chunk of america that still does not accept these alternative lifestyles. does not see legalized marriage

between a man and a man and woman and a woman as something that's correct. he's saying something that's offensive. but america still is not to the point where they can openly accept it. >> america better get over it. i'm really serious about this. >> absolutely. >> if utah can get over it, america can get over it. >> i say on my show all the time, in america we're culturally conditioned to believe. and what i'm talking about is what he said about black people. you know, white is superior. black is inferior. you undervalue, underestimate and marginalize people. here this man talks about louisiana. does he not know the deacon of defense got started in louisiana? has he not seen the iconic painting of rockwell and the little girl bridges, walking to school with u.s. marshals? he has the audacity to suggest all black people were just happy? >> and singing. >> and singing. let me tell you, the problem

with this, i'll just say it straight up, it's ignorance. if you want to poll americans and 17 or 20 or 50% want to be ignorant and then to sit up there and vote rosa parks's name? where were these people when rosa parks was sitting on that bus? where were these people when folks were boycotting that bus? where were these individuals? >> hold on. hold on. vicky, hang on one second. i want to add to this. i'll give you a chance to respond. but i want to add to this. what i found fascinating was then there was a "wall street journal" op-ed that took a similar position, but from the other side. sort of nostalgia for the good ole days when wasps ran everything. quoting from it. by joseph epstein. under wasp hegemony, corruption, scandal and incompetence in high places weren't as now regular features of public life. under wasp rule, stability,

solidity and gravity and a certain weight of an aura of seriousness sufficient fused public life. as a ruling class, today's new meritocracy has failed to provide the positive things old wasp provided. we're seeing and hearing it from all sides. ultimately i agree with joe it's ignorance. i also think it's just a lack of acceptance of a fact that our country is changing. and it's not going to go back to the era of wasp domination. and it's not going to go back to the jim crow south. we are moving forward with marriage equality. >> wasp? white anglo-saxon? >> i felt like i was reading an ode to downton abbey. i swear i felt that way. i think what this is reflective of, what we're seeing is that that lack of not wanting to change. i agree with you. i agree with joe. this is a reflection of not just ignorant comments, but

un-christian comments. jesus says love everybody. it's not your place to judge. god is going to judge. let's not dismiss these people. let's engage in what they're saying and try to figure out how we can engage them and try to figure out there is a way to accept these alternate lifestyles. we're not forcing anything upon you. we need to see movement. >> joe, final word to you. i do want to say, i agree with vicky. my personal feeling is, i completely disagree with everything this man has said. but i support his right to say it because i personally would always rather know if you're a racist. i want to know it. i want to know where you're coming from. i think it's helpful. i also think -- this is my question to you -- i think it is more helpful that we actually have this conversation. i think how we have this conversation about race and sort of the change that's happening in this country is important, and i agree that some people are in a very different place than others. but that doesn't mean that if you speak out and you say something that people disagree with, they, too, have the right to disagree with you publicly.

>> that's why you have a first amendment. first amendments were about debates. what the young people need to understand, wasp. wasp. white anglo-saxon protestant. what about the catholics? what about us folks who aren't protestant. if i were an irish catholic i'd be absolutely outraged. they ought to be on our side on this one. >> as he points out in the -- in the op-ed, apparently the kennedys were just trying to play wasps. because they were catholics. you know, i think that's a conversation that is going to continue. i thank you, vicky soto and joe madison for being a part of it. merry christmas to you both, guys. next, eight people freed. 8,000 more to go. president obama did something this week involving draconian laws that actually a majority of people left and right agree with. stay with us. we'll tell you about it. this is the quicksilver cash back card from capital one.

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three consecutive life terms in prison for a first time nonviolent offense. that was the term for clarence aaron after convicted for introducing a drug supplier to a classmate whose brother was a dealer and being present during the sale of nine kilograms of cocaine. sunday excessive? he did come close to being pardoned during the bush administration. an error made by the department of justice meant he ended up being refused. kari clarence was one of eight people who had their sentence commuted by president obama earlier this week. in a statement statement the president said, quote, today i'm commuting the prison terms of eight men and women sentenced under an unfair system. each of them has served more than 15 years in prison. in several cases, the sentencing

judge has expressed frustration that the law at the times did not allow them to issue punishments that more appropriately fit the crime. now, this in addition to steps taken earlier this year by attorney general eric holder are part of a renewed effort to reform sentencing requirements for nonviolent offenders. since the 1980s started the war on drugs, the u.s. prison population has more than quadrupled from 500,000 to 2.4 million. one of the primary reasons for the increase? mandatory minimum sentencing. originally marketed as a way to be tough on crime, mandatory minimum and three strikes laws have resulted in overcrowding prisons and unequal application of the laws. this has gotten renewed interest for two basic reasons. overcrowding aened the significant cost. in 2012 alone taxpayers spent almost $60 billion on prisons and jails. in a 2008 study commissioned by families against mandatory minimu minimums, they found actually 6 in 10 americans oppose mandatory

minimums for not violent crimes. president obama has worked hard to curb these unfair practices include the -- and reduced the racially discriminatory -- new offenders, its powers are not retroactive. thus do little to help the estimated 8,800 inmates still serving time for crack cocaine charges. on thursday when the president used his authority to free eight people and make clear -- he made clear that this is an important issue. there's plenty more to be done on this front, though. joining me now, co-director of the advancement project. msnbc contributor and huffington post contributor ryan grim. also author of "this is your

country on drugs." sounds very appropriate for the conversation. judith, i want to start with you. this issue of mass incarceration. we talk about it. we talk about overcrowding. the other piece that's really important is that it's profitable. there are companies making almost 3 billion in 2010. >> that's right. i mean, we have major companies who are profiting off of bodies being pushed into this system. the more bodies -- we're breaking down what used to be the government's role in prisons. instead building private prisons that are being paid for by tax dollars. right? when we look at the people who are behind the bars, of course we know they are disproportionately black and brown people who are on the other end of our so-called criminal justice system. i have to say that president obama was -- did the right thing

here. you know, we have a principle in our country that is equal justice under the law. and what he did and the fair sentencing act is actually putting equal back into our justice system. >> i agree with that. actually, ryan, i think we had a pretty interesting and dramatic example in the last couple weeks with the affluenza judge. as a new defense mechanism. one of the things that was interesting, "business insider" reported that same judge sentence add 14-year-old black kid to ten years in juvie for a much lesser offense. so clearly justice is not being distributed equally. >> right. what we have to remember is that it's not just that this system creates kind of racist outcomes. in a lot of ways you can make the argument that it's racist by design. if you think about the climate in which these laws were created, it began -- actually democrats are not blameless here. arlen specter was the first one

who ran kind of a race baiting law and order ad in, i think, 1965 when he was running for pennsylvania attorney general. then after that when nixon developed this southern strategy which was then expanded on by president reagan, it was all law and order. it was playing to white resentment. and the policy response to that was to create these mandatory minimums that targeted african-americans. so it's not a coincidence that that climate led to those laws which led to this system. >> this one in particular -- sorry, karen. this one in particular, the crack cocaine sentencing, came after the death of the basketball star. really, this was, like, supposed to this, let's crack down on crime and crack cocaine that's happening in urban areas. right? but it's like new york city, you know, harlem and the south bronx. but let's not crack down on cocaine that's being dealt on

wall street. and so we had racial lines affluenza law making. >> if you're affluent, you can claim that actually as a defense despite the fact you can be not affluent and have bad parents. the point -- i know you work on judith as well, this really starts a lot earlier than i think we realize. it starts in the schools and the way kids are treated in schools and the way kids are punished in schools. i know you guys talk about the sort of school to prison pipeline. talk a little bit about that. >> sure. you know, every day we see young people of color being hit harder in schools with suspensions. also criminalized. we have 5-year-olds who are being arrested, african-american 5-year-olds arrested for temper tantrums. it's not something that happens in isolation. you know, we are seeing that more than ever. you know, we are starting mass incarcerations in kindergarten. and for black and latino children, they're disproportionately impacted by

this. you know, we have to look at this system both from schools to the juvenile justice system to the criminal justice system. and realize that we are treating communities of color more harshly. we're more likely to be policed, more likely to be arrested, more likely to get a prison sentence, more likely to lose our voting rights on the other end. this was all through legislation. >> ryan, let's talk solutions. because, you know, we talk problems. let's talk solutions. the fair sentencing act we just talked about, obviously part of the problem is that it's not retroactive. so now there are a number of other initiatives like the smarter sentencing act, justice safety valve act and the recidivism reduction act all sort of in congress. i think what's important is, you know, it's important that the president actually use his power to move this issue forward and take a stand. at the same time, there are other solutions that are before congress that seem like they have bipartisan support at this point. >> i mean, well, i think

immediately, you know, the president and all of the governors should look at the sentences of anybody, you know, who was sentenced under the mandatory minimum laws. and send them out. commute those sentences. if we have decided that we're not going to have this disparity between crack and cocaine, it's blatantly unfair to leave people in prison because they happen to be convicted at a different time. the second thing that you could do, is to take away the incentives for local governments to wage the drug war. if local cops and state cops were left to their own devices, they wouldn't actually be knocking down people's doors over pot or small amounts of cocaine because, you know, they have much bigger problems to deal with. but the federal government entices them to do that by saying, well, hey, "a," you can keep anything that you can collect that's part of a drug raid. you don't even have to prove that what you collected is part

of a drug operation. in fact, instead, the person that had the stuff taken from them has to go and pursue it. often these are poor people. you've taken all of their assets so far for them to raise a defense. there are also grants and such that go out and buy all this military equipment. if you just took that away and let the states and local governments decide, i think they would decide it wasn't in their interest to wage a drug war. >> final word to you, judith. isn't there also an issue here of giving judges -- i think it's part of what the president is also trying to strive towards, giving judges more discretion in sentencing. obviously in some cases affluenza, we need to keep an eye on that. in some cases that could make a huge difference. >> that's right. judges too too many people moving through the system. they know there is significant recidivism. they know that people keep coming back. and they really should have some discretion to come up with the right kind of solution for

people who are before them. and really to take into account circumstances. but as you said, karen, you know, we have to also monitor that. because often we also know that judges have perceptions of young people and people of color that are skewed and biased. so we have to make sure that they're dolling out equal justice. >> thank you, judith browne dianis and ryan grim. you guys are awesome. >> merry christmas. later in this hour, a nightmare before christmas. remember those tea party hostage takers? they're back, and they're ready to strike again. that's coming up. what if we could keep enough plastic waste to cover mt. rainier out of landfills each year? by using one less trash bag each month, we can. and glad forceflex bags stretch until they're full.* so you can take them out less often.

bill o'reilly says he's won the war on christmas. now we're on the war on men and the sisification of our boys. that and our disrupter of the week are coming up.

>> i say the republicans are going the way of the wiigs. this is their last hurrah. republicans don't stand for anything. they don't stand for anything. what do they stand for?

now we've got to negotiate for congress to pay bills that it has accrued. it is not something that is a negotiating tool. it's not leverage. it's the responsibility of congress. it's part of doing their job. i expect them to do their job. >> he sounded pretty clear to me. that was president pm bm standing firm on the looming debt ceiling deadline which is february 7th. that's the day treasury secretary jack lew must resort to extraordinary measures to pay our bills and avoid a possible default shortly thereafter. that won't be the end of it. guess what? they're back!

congressman paul ryan and tea party motivated senator mitch mcconnell, they want ransom for another deal on the debt ceiling. they don't care what john boehner has to say about it. >> every time the president asks us to raise the debt ceiling is a good time to try to achieve something important for the country. >> we don't want nothing out of this debt limit. we're going to decide what it is we can accomplish out of this debt limit fight. >> once again, the cuckoo caucus, aka the tea party and outside tea party groups will have their back. in fact, they view this fight as just the beginning of a resurgence of power for the tea party. this is a time to regroup, rejuvenate and reorganize. as "the washington post" reported this week, while the cuckoo caucus prepares to return in january, outside groups like the coke backed americans for prosperity are also prepping for a long fight into the 2014 mid-term elections. they describe americans for prosperity head tim phillips on a recent trip to south carolina, quote, he talked about the need for more money, the need for

more volunteer time, for more, quote, professional, motivated, numerous grass roots army. and, alas, they've got it. despite what the polls say the departy isn't demoralized at all. as one tea partier put it in the post boehner's comments attacking them actually just unleash theme. lee fong, contributor and writer for the nation. and raul ruiz. thanks to you both. lee, they're back! it's like round two begins. they've made it very clear that they are willing to extract -- you know, they've got hostages. they are willing to hold those hostages. so basically we're going to be right back where we thought we weren't going to be come february. and probably sooner. >> that's right. the coke backed americans for prosperity had a big setback last year in attempting to defeat president obama. they have had some scattered policy victorievictories. what they're doing is developing their own proprietary data base

called semus. named after the greek god of law and order. >> of course. >> of course. this data base they hope to use to collect names, use it for get out the vote operations in 2014, 2016 and these big policy debates, the debt ceiling, is a good opportunity to get people excited and to collect more names. >> right. you know, raul, it really strikes me that part of what they're trying to do here in reading "the washington post" is build an outside infrastructure in the way democrats recognize -- and progressives, there's a need, center for american progress and center for american infrastructure outside the structure of the party. it feels like tea party folks are saying we want that, too. >> that would be very nice to have. the tea party remains a little checked out of our american reality. they want what the democrats and progressives have. what the democrats and progressives have, what they're building, is a big tent. >> right. >> the tea party is not a big

tent. what i love about this poll, new round of the debt ceiling, manufactured potential debt ceiling crisis, the pea partiers, they're a strict constructionists who are all about the constitution. >> right. >> section 4, 14th amendment of the constitution says the validity of the u.s. debt authorized by law shall not be questioned. that is pretty clear. >> you don't actually think they've read the constitution. come on. >> that's we've got video earlier today. senator schumer was talking about it. on a serious note, obviously, the question becomes what is it they're going to try to hold hostage in these negotiations? i think we can probably guess what they are. let's take a listen to what senator schumer said and we'll talk about it on the other side. >> i would predict that republicans will back off any hostage taking, adding extraneous irrelevant issues to the debt ceiling. they learned in october that if they followed the tea party and

said we're going to let the government default unless we get our way, it was highly unpopular. republicans will look back to october and say, we're not going through this again. >> you know, lee, the more that i see and more i read about what the tea party is up to right now, they don't care. they don't view that, as i said in the open, they see this as a time to regroup. they don't see that -- they may have seen it as a setback, as you pointed out. but they are ready to move forward. they don't really care about their favorability. >> no. that's right. on the outside, it looks like a lot of washington dysfunction, republicans not sure what they want to demand. comes up with demands at the very last moment. if you look closer to the details, paul ryan floating the keystone xl, quick approval of that pipeline in exchange for the debt ceiling increase, i mean, that has nothing to do with the national debt. it's a big giveaway to fossil fuel companies. potentially coke industry

included. another demand floated last time was a special tax cut to medical device companies. that would actually increase the debt and deficit. this is a laundry list of giveaways to special interest groups they're hoping to trade. and obama has really no reason to negotiate. he already called their bluff last time. i think that's what's going to happen this time around again. >> i think that's exactly right. how long, raul, do you think it's going to be before the republicans -- i was actually surprised no t to hear it today -- claim this is all a distraction from obamacare, right? like everything. >> all roads lead back to funding obamacare. >> that's exactly right. i feel like any day now they're going to start to say that the letter from jack lew was kind of made up and that this is a made up crisis on the part of the president. because he wants to distract from the affordable care act and the disastrous rollout. right? >> karen, i think the mistake you might be making here is you seem to be looking for rational actors. >> i know. i can't help it. >> we're not talking about that. i know the gallup polling shows that tea party approval is --

the unfavorability rankings is at a record high. most -- you know, if you are rational, a legitimate political force, you figure out what's going to appeal to the broadest number of people possible. they don't do that. they're doubling down on their positions. if anything, they're refusing to change. what also i find fascinating is so many republicans, particularly among the tea partiers, they take great offense at the notion that any of their support, that their base are low information voters or misinformed. yes, i feel they're disrespecting that base by going through this whole process again that they know cannot work. it's a losing proposition. why? >> it's all about fundraising. lee, final point to you here. you were talking about some of the other little goodies that congressman ryan could put on the table like the medical device tax. yet what is so disgusting is that at the same time, the same guy put into the budget cuts to the benefits for our veterans.

literally, it's like are we going to give tax cuts to big oil and to these companies, or can we just make sure that our vets are taken care of and don't have to put in more money on their pensions? >> that's right, karen. if you look at the budget deal that was agreed upon last week, these conservative outside groups are angry. but they should be pretty happy about this. there are slight rollback in the sequester cut in 2014. then they all re-emerge in 2015. these are severe cuts to head start, a program that helps homeless children. these are severe cuts to medical research nih funding. there's a lot that conservatives who want to drown government in a bathtub, they should be celebrating. but at the same time, you know, they're still kind of throwing their hands up and demanding more primary challenges. >> all right. it will be, i guess, fun to watch. maybe that's not quite the best way to put it. but we'll be watching. thank you. lee fang and raul reyes and merry christmas, guys. when we come back, our disrupters of the week.

a colleague of mine and a young woman who could be the disrupter of the year, quite honestly. later, why no recess in school must mean there is a war on men. that's coming up. avo: the volkswagen "sign then drive sales event is back. which means it's never been easier to get a new passat, awarded j.d. power's most appealing midsize car, two years in a row. and right now you can drive one home for practically just your signature. get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on any new 2014 volkswagen. hurry, this offer ends january 2nd. for details, visit vwdealer.com today ♪ through 12 ice storms brewing ♪ ♪ 10 straight days raining ♪ 9 hailstorms pounding ♪ 5 mysteriously heavy holiday fruitcakes ♪ ♪ 4 actual tree houses ♪ 3 blackouts

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jim changed his routine. ask your doctor about xarelto®. once a day xarelto® means no regular blood monitoring -- no known dietary restrictions. for more information and savings options, call 1-888-xarelto or visit goxarelto.com. last month my colleague melissa harris perry spoke with 20-year-old courtney andrews about her experience coming forward as a rape survivor and the out rage she felt when her attacker was found guilty but sentenced to no time in prison. because in alabama judges have discretion in sentencing. >> what do you need to feel safe? >> i need for him to be in prison. i'm not going to feel safe other than that. >> two days after that interview and a number of other stories, the alabama judge who initially spared courtney's rapist from jail actually agreed to conduct a new sentencing hearing for convicted rapist austin smith

clem. just this week there was more progress. an appeals court granted the local district attorney's petition that the sentencing must consider rape as a violent crime which will include jail time. none of this would have happened if it wasn't for the courage of courtney andrews. the department of justice reports that last year only 28% of over 345,000 sexual assaults and rapes were ever reported to the police. that's down from 56% in 2003. for courtney, having the courage and the strength to stand up and tell her story and for my colleague, melissa, for having the courage to speak so openly about her personal experience and help shed light and bring justice to this case, these two brave women are our disrupters of the week. when we come back, over 80% of congress is male. 96% of fortune 500 ceos are men. some folks at fox think there's a war on men? grab your helmets. we're debunking that story when we come back. ♪

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oh, fellows, you have had a tough year. all this time we women have been talking about mandatory ultra sounds, equal pay being virtually nonexistent on the sunday talk shows and leaning in, we have neglected our men. as media matters pointed out this week, apparently many of the year's biggest social and political issues are actually part of a giant nationwide attack on men. but guys, not to worry. we're going to go through this very helpful list and try to respond to the concerns of the conservative media and men who may be feeling under siege. the list of offenses includes kids not playing tag. obamacare. women's sexual freedom. to sitcoms. to, yeah, obama's america in general. poor, poor men. hundreds of years of owning property, making more money and having unassailable rights, it's

a tough cross to bear, right? but the numbers don't lie. women still earn less and we still work more hours. now we're actually being told we can't be trusted to make critical life decisions like, i don't know, what medicines to take. but i digress. here to help me take a look at this so-called war on men, margie o'hara and political correspondent for the nation alex sykes wald. i'm going to start with you, margie. apparently, the attack on marriage was cultural. it's part of our fault, rush would say -- >> of course. >> of course. in part because we have boobs. and it's natural for them to look at our boobs. let's take a listen. >> the first suggestion -- the first way to deal with this that came into my mind, you find yourself staring, looking at, casually glancing at a woman. but you know that it's now

socially taboo. you shouldn't be doing it. you think everybody is noticing you doing it and condemning you in their mind. you walk up to the woman, say, will you please ask your breasts to stop staring at my eyes? >> margie, it is all your fault. you and those boobs. i'm telling you. >> i -- >> hard to know what to say. >> the thought of rush limbaugh, you know, and the male gaze of rush limbaugh is just too much to take. of course we should be not to blame. everybody knows that. and he's become a laughing stock. he just has to keep getting crazier and crazier in order to get cover elsewhere. for people to pay attention. >> here's my question to you, though. is there any polling anywhere that suggests that women are aware that this is a problem? because maybe we just need to let more women in on the secret. >> yeah.

you know, i haven't seen a lot of polling that says let's wage a war on men. i do think just like you were talking earlier, it's good to know people have these biases in advance. any man out there who thinks -- who's going to complain if his wife gets equal pay, he doesn't want his wife to get paid more for the hours she works doesn't deserve to have a wife. there should be a question on match.com that says do you think there's a war on men? any guy who says yes -- >> should automatically -- >> does not find anybody. the market would then sort itself out. >> alex, you know, we're making fun of it. in all seriousness, one of the things we saw this year that as margie points out, some of those biases can actually have an impact on serious policy. like, you know, toronto's "wall street journal" op-ed talking about military sexual assault and sort of putting blame on women. which in our rape culture, that tends to happen.

this idea where he says lieutenant general susan helms is a pioneering woman who finds her career stalled because of a war on men. a political campaign against sexual assault in the military that shows signs of becoming an effort to criminalize male sexuality. so on a serious note, i mean, we're also grappling with these types of attitudes. >> absolutely. i mean, it's classic blame the victim mentality. it puts the entire onus of, you know, stopping actual assault on women. it assumes that men are helpless and can't help themselves and therefore it has to be women to stop this. that has horrible public policy consequences if you spin that out for not just military but on college campuses or any time this engages. i think what's going on, as a man, as an educated white man, it's very, very hard for me. i'm under so much pressure. >> please tell us. >> let me explain to you for a minute here. try to get inside the head. i think what's going on is that, you know, these people have

benefited from centuries of white male privilege. now suddenly somebody is coming along and saying we want some of that. we want to make things equal. and the quality and traditional generals are just fundamentally imcompatible. to them it feels like a war. it feels like they're under attack because suddenly they want women to be equal? that's outrageous. >> it's not a zero sum game. >> hold on, margie. there's two more points in this ridiculous article i want to -- it was a great article by media matters. the whole assertion is a little silly. i want to get to it. one is some conservatives are saying actually the fact that we don't have physical education in schools and boys can't run around and be rough and tumble and we're actually feminizing school because you have to follow instructions and sit and be quiet, that that is part of the war on men rather than, margie, acknowledging the fact that we have budget cuts. that's why there's no more p.e. and no more art classes. >> right. exactly. that's more of a war on public school funding than a war on

men. in fact, that particular anecdote, that tag is going to be replaced by, you know, friend circles has been debunked. when pushed it turned out that anecdote really comes from a book that says, maybe we should do -- maybe we should have curriculums where there's circle of friends instead of tag. it was just a book with a suggestion. it is not actually a trend sweeping the country. the whole thing is made up. >> alex, final to you very quickly. apparently there's impeer cal evidence, conservatives say, women really just want to work part time so that way more men could work full time. just so you know, i don't know if you're dating. but just know that women really just want to work part time. don't worry about it. >> yeah. i think that's news to millions of women everywhere who enjoy working full time. the evidence here is like an internal anxiety looking for external justification. it's not based on reality at

all. >> it is not. i appreciate the two of you having a little fun with me on this one. happy holidays. merry christmas. that does it for me. thanks so much for joining us. have a merry christmas. i will see you back here next weekend at 4:00 eastern. if you have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis, like me, and you're talking to your rheumatologist about trying or adding a biologic. this is humira, adalimumab. this is humira working to help relieve my pain. this is humira helping me through the twists and turns. this is humira helping to protect my joints from further damage. doctors have been prescribing humira for over ten years. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. for many adults, humira is proven to help relieve pain and stop further joint damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer, have happened. blood, liver and nervous system problems,

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and advanced technology at the lexus december to remember sales event, with some of our best offers of the year on our most luxurious models. this is the pursuit of perfection. here we go. i'm going to take you on a ride. >> stunts too insane to believe. >> it's just crazy. that must be fake. z >> do not try this at home. >> i would like maybe to crash this car. >> animals acting like humans. >> not once does the bear hit himself in the face. that's really impressive. >> it's impossible not to join in. >> and pranks that push the limit. >> it took my breath away. >> we were both really scared. >> i'm like, oh, this is bad. >> millions of clicks, but what is the truth? >> you sort of gasp that can't