>> my heart felt message to all of you is start thinking about this now, do not leave before you leave. do not lean back lean in. put your foot on the gas pedal and keep it there until the day you have to make a decision and then make a decision. that's the only way when that day comes you'll even have a decision to make. >> that was facebook chief operating officer cheryl

sandsburg in 2011 urging barnard graduates to lean in at work. joining us now lisa miller who writes in the new issue the cover story about a growing number of women who are choosing, instead, to lean out. in herpes entitled "the retrowife" she interviewed a mom who embraces her new calling in life. it's about kelly. she calls herself a liberal and feminist. i want my daughter to be able to do anything she wants but i want to say have a career that you can walk away from at a drop of the hat. far from the bible belt conservative territories in blue-state cities young educated married mothers find themselves not uninterested in the metaconversation about having it all but untouched about it. they are too busy mining their grand mothers' old-fashioned lives for values they can

appropriate like heirlooms then wear proudly as their own. so, it's great to have you all for this conversation. lisa, let's start with you. first of all, when you look at these numbers and this trend that you track here, what's behind it? is it a choice or reality? >> this is an economy story. these are not very affluent women who are leaving law firm jobs. these are women in families with much less. in a world where our financial futures are uncertain and you're not making that much money and you got too little kids and your husband is working all the time it makes sense to lean out and focus on the home sphere. >> is that what you're finding the women you interviewed and the women you talked to, is that a reality that's a negative reality? >> no. what's so wonderful about what's

happening now is that these women are really embracing domesticity. it's not the stifle boredom that was described 30 years. it's embracing motherhood, embracing wifehood and the home. doesn't mean everything has to be perfect. they are emphatic about it. it's not about martha stewart perfect, perfect. it's about making sure you're teaching your kids the right values. it's about cooking healthy meals. it's about reading to your kids. it's about taking them to museums. it's about cultivating a life that's more of the life you wish you had. >> so, it's the choice to be there. >> but i read your piece and the context of the whole cheryl sandburg conversation and i felt it was a stark choice. for most women it's more in the middle. you lean in at certain moments you lean out. men have this linear career trajectory. women, you start leaning in, you

have kids or a parent gets sick or something and whether it's by choice or exhaustion, you step away and i don't -- you know, i don't think men -- i know cheryl says okay get your husband to do half house to work, it will make it easier but there are things they can't do. i'll give you one example. >> poor dan. >> there's a lot of things we can't do. >> but literally, i'm moderating one of the primary presidential debates right after i had a baby. sitting in a dirty closet on the floor behind the auditorium where this debate is taking place between obama and hillary clinton and pumping breast milk. i just had my kid. 20 minutes before i'm going on. trying to get my head in the game. thinking about the questions i want to ask. breast milk is flying every where. how do you lean in at that moment? what's the equivalent for that for wolf blitzer or joe

scarborough? it's a moment where you say i can't do this and i don't care what advice sane self help book that gets me over that hump. have you had moments like that? >> no. so this leads to and it's so much easier for men because looking at, you know, my mom or aunts or other women in my life that having worked and been juggling everything, it's just so hard because, you know, you go all in one way. and you feel like you're missing out. you go all out the other way you feel you're missing out. >> life is messy, isn't it. as campbell says life is messy. i think the point of cheryl's book is asking the question why aren't there more senior women in business, in politics. there's a shortage of senior women every where. what she's trying to do is start a conversation to ask questions, which are awkward.

she says is this something innate in women that makes them feel anxious they can't do everything. campbell can you do the next presidential debate. maybe you shouldn't be trying to do the breast pump and presidential debate and it is too much. maybe you could have said i'm not going to pump for this baby. there's choices you have to give up. you wanted to do it all. >> lots of luck telling the president of nbc news, you know, i can't do this presidential debate because i'm pumping my breast milk. >> but if the president of nbc was a woman you would have been able to say -- >> she is now but wasn't then, i think. k you could have said i would love to do it the next time around. >> that's totally unrealistic. >> what's interesting about kelly she's honest about herself

about what it is she wants. it's very hard for women who are looking at cheryl sandburg and i should be like hillary clinton or joanna cole. >> we have kids at home that are being taken care of by somebody else right now. >> yes. >> i think if you're more honest with your self about what it is that you really want, then women who really want to work hard and strive and kick it at work should be able to do that and women who want to lean out and make a beautiful birthday cake and have that be a feminist move should be able to do that too. >> you all said we have somebody at home taking care of our kids. isn't it a lot easier when you're cheryl sandburg or most of the people at this table who

can afford to pay someone to read to your kids or other women stick the kids with a relative. >> a lot of women make the choice i don't want a nanny reading to my child. it reminds me of a "new york times" article. just simplifying things. the guy that had all this money in the tech world, he decided to strip everything down, simplify it. it sounds a lot of women are making this decision too. you know what? we don't need to double the salary. i want to stay home and read to my kids. >> which is fantastic and feminism is all about being able to exercise choice. the key thing women understand when they make those choices they impact their long term future. if you leave the workforce and especially if you leave the workforce in a job that you don't feel is going very far you'll never ever going to have the option to hire a nanny because you're taking yourself out of the market economically.

all the studies show, senior women who take two years out the look after their kids lose up to 18% of their salary over their career. that's a huge amount of money. and it's incredibly difficult because child care is not easily available, most people don't have families, i moved here, i don't have a family at all, my husband, thank goodness is looking after our children right now. it's a complicated issue. if you opt-out your economic choices are limited and you're dependent on a husband and he may not always be around. >> that's the key. >> you wrote about all of this a year ago, a lot of what cheryl wrote about, you wrote about a year ago and it was fascinating. in your book you told young women don't wait to get married, don't wait to have kids, because if you do you'll wake up 40 and

your job is going to let you down. >> if it's something you want in life. i don't think you take getting a job more seriously than looking for a family. and looking for that other fulfillment in life which is another conversation. to your story and now to katty kay, i think it's interesting because we do have the book that i wrote but also the book that cheryl called "lean in." you're supposed to say it. you're supposed to say i need this to be with my child for a few months. i actually venture to believe that in some companies you can. you just have to. i think women as cheryl points out are reticent to actually say what they need because they feel guilty or bad or perhaps maybe they won't be seen as productive, katty kay. >> we wrote this when we wrote "womennomics." the system at work has to change. what is it that women were leaving the workforce, losing

professional journalists and doctors because they were hitting the brick wall because of kids and career. women were looking at the top of the workplace no thanks. since 1992, the number of women who say they want more responsibility at work has declined by 50%. we're looking at that environment and say it just doesn't work at the very top if we want to have children. we have to change the structures of our workforce. we have to say to our companies and this is the biggest feminist revolution, if we can change that board table to make it more family friendly, to have has campbell said careers go up and down where you dial up and dial back those companies find productivity increase, the companies that say to women and men we don't care about your input we care about your output.

where and from where you work from, but what you produce that works so well for women. we're efficient and diligent and in those circumstances productivity rises for the company and you keep women in the workforce. >> i venture to say we might be more productive even when we have small children. >> i totally agree. >> we're on fire. we're trying to keep it going. new study shows the pay gap between men and women may be closing but we still have a long way to go. >> no doubt about it. you talk about it all the time. you've written two great books it. >> coming up next -- his book reads like a road map how to break partisan gridlock. chris matthews joins the table with his new book "tip and the gipper." i take prilosec otc each morning for my frequent heartburn.

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>> so it came down the wire but just after midnight on october 17th, president obama signed a

deal to end the government shutdown. >> chris matthews, who of course is the host of "hardball" on msnbc joined us to talk about the lessons learned from compromises in the past and how those lessons can affect this year's politics. >> it's not about health care. the tactics of the hard right failed their quest here for greatness. people didn't like the tactics. i think we're still going argue about spending. we should. we'll argue about policy and health care as we should and that will continue. the tactic of basically stopping the government for your own political points and then risking, in fact, hurting our standing in the world economically is a big price to pay. i don't think the ends justify the means. i don't think the public believes that any more. >> i've been tough on ted cruz. looking back at it, first of all he didn't have anybody pushing back on him within the party.

secondly, ted cruz is a freshman. he'll be the first to say this is the first political office identify held since student government. >> i don't think he would say it that way. >> no. but what i'm saying is he is learning politics right now, and the difference between ted cruz and a lot of these other guys and us that have been through this before, we've been through this before. this is a learning lesson for everybody. >> no doubt. political muscle memory here could be something within three months whether it has an impact. whether it sticks. >> i'm not going to say it makes you more moderate but it makes you smarter. >> you think. >> remember rick santorum when he got to the senate, he wasn't playing by the rules. he was for the '90s, he was thought of as bombastic and not

following the -- >> going after mark hatfield who was in iwo jima. >> but santorum himself will tell you, he didn't moderate his ideology, he moderated his tactics and temperament. >> i can go back to '95 and '96 and very embarrassed with it. i didn't moderate my ideology but you learn. you get blind sided one or two times you learn where the punches are coming from. you learn that too, you're in a very small boat. >> what boehner said at the beginning of this, those boehner started it by saying i'm going to extract things out of you and so you lay the predicate and somebody like cruz comes along and says oh, let's do obamacare. boehner didn't intend that. boehner, as we know, is obsessed with cutting spending.

and so we, in a sense, you get the ball rolling when you go to a meeting at the white house and you say, mr. president, i'm going extract things out of you that i would not otherwise get. >> but the irony is he would have, had they not made it about health care the president would have been there to have conversations about spending. >> one of the platforms of the republican party is they don't like government waste. how much did we waste in this process steve rattner and what are the other ramifications that could still happen given the fact we came so close to the deadline. >> a bunch of ramifications. s&p came out yesterday and said it cost $24 bill thrown the economy. the equivalent of a whole big dig in boston we could have done a whole big dig in boston. >> or jfk and laguardia. >> to have all that. you have all that. enormous uncertainty on the part

of business and consumers. consumer confidence hit a nine month low during this process and people are pulling back. you caulk talk to the car compa they say sales are soft. it's not just a budget battle between the democrats and the republicans. there's still a budget battle inside the republican party. the ryan budget that got passed calls for $6 trillion of spending cuts over the next ten years. it calls for repealing obamacare. it calls for voucherizing medicare. and the republican chairman of the appropriations committee have not passed a single appropriations bill because he says he can't fit spending inside the box that paul ryan has created. >> i thought i read the house passed four. harry reid has passed zero. >> most importantly the transportation -- >> harry reid has passed zero appropriation bills in the

senate. harry reid passed zero appropriation bills. >> the transportation housing urban development bill one of the most important bills could not pass the house last summer because it was too draconian. >> hey, chris, what was the point where tip, was it after that first budget vote where tip lost so many more democrats than he thought that reagan had more success in getting democrats in the house to support him, is that when the dynamics changed between tip and reagan and is there something to be learned there, what do you expect to see out of how the republicans, you know, is there a lesson to be applied here to how the republicans sort of attack after this? >> i got up this morning and tried to think if there's something important to learn in all of this, apart from party politics. i think the word respect keeps coming to my head. respect for the voters. respect for how they make decisions. respect for the other side's

point of view. most important the other guy's office and women's office and schedules for how the place is to be run. there was total lack of respect for the people. my brother retired wanted to go out and visit the west and the monuments they were shut down. we shut it down if we want to make a point. the end justifies the means. it bugged me the way the clintons back in '94 and '95, they used the white house as motel 6. that's not the way to use the white house as a fundraising tool. you have to be respectful of this government and its institutions. this crowd it's tactic, i want my way. the hell with our financial standing in the world i want to make my point. that's what kids do when they are in second grade. you have to group and act like you have responsibility -- you have an oath of office to this government. they are officers of this government. the speaker is. we keep forgetting they are employees of the state.

they work for us. they are not just politicians free base out there and having a life over warfare. we're not out of the woods. i heard sean hannity saying last night we'll start this up again come january. >> the hard right won't change. you listen to ted cruz's speech he's in his own world. he thinks the american people are behind him. what will change are main stream conservatives who basically they were afraid of primaries, the energy of the republican party is in the tea party, they went along. i think this was in a certain sense a rubicon. they won't go along as easy as they. i see it in the senate. will there be that courage in the house? >> from one best seller to another, up next we go inside to the making of double down, the key story lines that made john

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>> when he talks about land mines around the vetting process does that plant any seeds of concern? >> no. any of the stuff that was in the

book was litigated in the 2009 campaign and will be litigated in the future. these are two guys trying to sell a book. let's not forget that. they sensationalize stuff. they want to make money. i understand that. but i doesn't make it valid and nothing i'm concerned about. man. >> held low. >> with us now mark halperin and national affairs editor from "new york" magazine john heileman. they are out with their latest book "double down." first of all "new york" magazine, man i read it early this morning, this newtown story is just absolutely gripping. make sure you get "new york" magazine and read that. but, the big, the big grabber here, john, i don't know if i can do this. take us into that meeting during debate prep where the president said to his staff that were trying to pull him -- i don't know if i can do this.

>> one of the most extraordinary moments we've ever come across in our reporting in both of these books. the president had the disaster in denver. he come out promising to do better. his team thought he was improving. then he gets to the debate prep session that they are doing in williamsburg, virginia, 48 hours before hofstra debate. the research is saying people are willing to forgive one bad debate performance but if he screws up the second one we're in trouble. he gives a horrible performance in this mock debate on sunday. all the worst things in denver, the slow, not driving a sharp message, all of that together with his contempt for romney, all comes together in this one -- >> explain that. if let's say i had contempt for somebody i was running against, i wouldn't sleep for two weeks beforehand because i would bury them. that's what i didn't get in this book. he had contempt for romney and yet just absolute utter contempt

and yet that was getting in his way. >> the only thing he had more contempt for than romney was this thing that we've seen throughout his administration, this enormous comment for the theatrics of politics. the thing he hates about debates this is all just stagey, fake hystrionics. i'm barack obama. i'm above that. disdain for romney and the process leads him to this horrible place where 36 hours before the debate they've sit down with him and stage what they call an intervention. three his top advisors saying, mr. president u-need to embrace this event. what's wrong with you. he suite there's and gives a ten minute self-deconstruction where he says i'm not wired in the way that this requires. i don't know if i can do this. >> here's your quote. you keep telling me i can't spend too much time defending my record and that i should talk

about my plans, he said. but my plans aren't anything like the plans i ran on in 2008. i had a universal health care plan then. now i've got what? a manufacturing plan? what am i going to do on jegs? what am i going to do on energy. there's not much there. i can't tell you that okay i woke up today i knew i needed to do better and i'll do better. obama said. i'm wired in a different way than the event requires. obama paused. i just don't know if i can do this. >> it's like ted kennedy in 1983. he basically said i have no reason to run. >> as john said one of the most extraordinary scenes we've come across and very hard to get because there were only a few people in the room and the president two weeks before the debate, 48 hours before the election, 48 hours before the debate he's in a very bad place and had been telling them up until now i'm barack obama i never lose two in a row, of

course i'll win the second beindicate. in this meeting he says i'm not sure i can do it. saying he has no plans which was the critique of many republicans including mitt romney, the fact he said it in this meet, conservatives will seize on he wasn't running on anything. how can he have a serious discussion with mitt romney when he was basically running a campaign to disqualify mitt romney and not on any specific big things. >> which is what they told you john heileman back in may of 2011. we really don't have our or '12, we don't have our own plan we have to destroy mitt romney. >> one of the things the -- you think about where he is now. any incumbent president with the poor economic, poor economic record the president had with where the country was, the right track, wrong track numbers 100% going to run a campaign to

disqualify, anybody would have done to it disqualify their opponent. the president wanted -- he thought this election it could break the fever. right. having run a campaign that wasn't really about his own record, nor was it about a future agenda that all it was really about was the disqualification -- it was at odds with his stated and sincere goal which was how are you going to have a mandate, how are you going to have a clarifying election if all you've proven is mitt romney is unfit for office which he did well. >> if you look at this scene which, again, people can read online but a big part of the book, almost everything that he is having trouble with now, trouble with congress, trouble with public opinion, trouble with explaining himself, you can see in that scene where he's laying himself bare. >> part of this is how much did bill clinton get in his head. you guys did a great job talk about your relationship to them going up to the convention. but it's my understanding that convention seat that bill

clinton got he was almost jealous. he couldn't give. bill clinton got to do what barack obama was criticized by his staffers for doing in that first debate. >> no question. a big part of our book, the narrative through line is the relationship between barack obama and bill clinton. in the beginning the president, president obama doesn't want to spend time with him but in the first of all '11 when everything looks bad, when it looks like he can't win re-election, they flirt with the notion that hilary is on the ticket they reach out to bill clinton and bring him in. giving him that slot at the convention was incredible. right? a guy who he was at war with four years ago gets the marquise slot. >> couldn't finish 18 holes. >> he gets a slot and does -- he does this rambling explanatory thing. >> many people involved in the debate prep said what you're saying. bill clinton got in his head. >> coming up next he's a voice

behind grew and "despicable ii" and what it was like to say good-bye to "the office." that's next on "morning joe."

♪ ♪ i seen your picture ♪ your name in lights above it ♪ >> i have accept ad new job. >> really? >> yes. i have been recruited by a top secret agency to go under cover and save the world. >> you're going to be a spy? >> that's right, baby. grew is back in the game with gadgets and weapons and cool car. the whole deal. >> awesome. >> your really going to save the world? >> yes. yes, i am.

you haven't seen that? >> i'm going to see this. >> you got to see the first one. the little ones are great. >> minions. "despicable ii" coming occupy. >> they love minions more than they love me. they knew i was in the movie and afterwards, you know, first one what did you think? did you like danielle adams in the movie? yes. loved the minions. they are the best. >> what was it? this thing grossed over the first one," despicable me" $550 million which by the way at the time like paid for universal, nbc universal, only thing that was making any money. i remember when i saw it i said thank god zucker, they are going to keep him on for another

month. this was incredible. >> yeah. it did well. it did not cost a lot either. one of those sleeper hits. peopling liked the fact it was accessible. it was funny but also a heart to it without being overly sentimental. >> what's it like? remember parents used to watch rocky and bullwinkle with their kids but only cartoon, the flintstones was like that. animated movies parents enjoyed it with their kids. >> this one is no exception when it can work on two different levels. it makes it tolerable for a parent to go and see is a movie because i've been to -- i have two little kids. not so little any more. i've seen everything. when you go to a movie that's impossible to sit through as a parent you almost resent the film makers after a while.

this one is sophisticated in that sense. >> like you said, it's not overly sentimental. first one was really moving. >> it is. because it's earned. it's not overly saccharin manipulative sentimentality. >> like "morning joe." >> you make people cry every morning. >> oh, yes he does. i cry every morning. >> it's cathartic. >> when he says i love you in the first one i want gets you. to joe's point it's one of things you call this literature this, is garbage, adults get pulled into. a lot of sequels follow the same formula and succeed and sometimes they mix it up and succeed or fail. how does it go? >> they were smart in the sense that they didn't just try to duplicate the first one it's an

extension of the first story. it's not derivative in a bad way. it echos -- the minions you can't get away how adorable. the minions are the marx brothers. aren't they, though? they are. they are physical. and they are violent in a benign sort of way. there's sort of a love between them and for them. so people have a real affection. there's lots of minions in this. >> they are so phenomenal. the minions are great. i won't ask you which one is zeppo. >> you mention your kids, two kids. what part as a parent weather children does it play any part in your role selection for not just this film but other films? >> yeah, to a certain extent. i've always liked to do things

that have some sort of positivity to it. like this, you feel you're putting something nice out there that's kind that will make people feel good at the end of the day. you can't always do something that will have that sort of effect. generally speaking those are things i'm drawn to. >> so many big stars do these animated roles and they seem to get into it, but how do you get there. when you read the script -- do you actually look at what's coming in front of you. do you talk. do you have to envision in your mine? how does it work. >> i would love to lie and say there's a process. >> everybody sits around -- >> you look terrible. the writing is really good. the director -- the animation team was based in france so the director generally was on a video hookup from france leading the actors through it. but it's just fun. you find the voice and you play around and you don't hear any other actors so there are no

pa parameters who what's expected. >> you know what your kids would like? >> what? >> tell them about a general store. >> i own a general store in massachusetts. my wife and i. it's south shore of massachusetts. marshfield. few years ago it came on the market like 150-year-old building, general store on one sirksd rural post office on the other side, porch. it's a congregating place. very few of those place exist. >> that's so cool. >> have you been there. >> i've been buy it. he sells great candy. >> all the old time stuff. >> that's on the cape? >> on the way. >> on the way to the cape. you just got some business. joe made me watch the first

"anchorman." i was howling. >> it took a long time for people to find it. when it first came out it did okay. a lot of people found it on dvd and on cable later on. >> i can't wait to see "anchorman ii." >> it's going to be ridiculous. >> tell me. >> the first one i feel is like tip of the iceberg. i don't want to build it up too much. it was so much fun to do. i think it's going to be really fun. everybody that was in the first one plus -- i think some of the cameos are out. some aren't. some of the stuff that you're going to see will be unexpected. >> throw up on your shoes funny. >> i don't know that they will put that in the movie post, throw up on your shoes funny. we have to end by talking about "the office." a nice ending. >> thanks.

>> i didn't think you were going to. talk about that. was it kind of like going back to high school, did you not want to go back to it or did you always know you wanted to be in the last one? >> we always talked about that. in terms of what context i go back. i didn't think there should be a big arc for me the end because that character had his big ending arc. i wanted it in deference to the other characters and the show and honor it. >> one of my favorite shows. i forced myself to sit down. the show was great and characters are great and your character a good man. "despicable me ii" out on july 3rd. >> you standard in the sundance film. busy summer. thanks for coming in. great to meet you. i can't wait to see the minions. we'll be back with much more on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] if you can clear a crowd but not your nasal congestion,

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>> i never accept help from anyone. that's why we didn't cut you in. we didn't want to demean you.

like tipping an african-american. you wouldn't tip an african-american, would you? >> of course i would. >> on a train. >> did you know about all this? >> no. i have been tipping them? >> even a waiter? >> the treadmill is up and running and we were able to match the paint. >> thank you so much for your hard work. >> he gives me notes. i have tweeting notes. >> he's a lot better than sullivan. >> can i ask a question. who was sitting in the seat before me? >> richard wolf. >> they didn't even have a temperature. this is the hottest seat. >> you do understand you have been commenting on everything. you called brian sullivan a

bore. what do you say about us? >> i'm on cnbc. >> he's needy. he needs us. >> the development over there. >> there you go. let's move forward. >> i had to be on this show because i am a fan. 6:00, that's me. that's my iv, by the way. >> do you bausch this morning? >> 6 time 01 i was wat:01 i was. >> before we go to the orphanage to see the kids, you wander up and carry the bag and you say you are a huge fan of the show. >> a huge fan.

you got out and we all took pictures. >> exactly. >> would i make your memoirs? >> can you talk louder? >> yes. >> mika, she doesn't get out much. this is the only show she likes and she is very excited. >> i watch it religiously. >> 3 time 01 our time, 12:01 someone is pressing a button and this goes all over the world. >> netflix at 3:01. >> our time. >> eastern time. they press a button and we see the whole season. >> 15. >> do you know my son is going to be pasty. he will do nothing all weekend but watch. >> you can watch all 15. >> this weekend? >> yes. i don't watch in blocks.

i do 30 seconds and i'm over it. it's really good. i'm very, very proud. i'm also doing a thing on amazon.com apparently on the internet. next year with the u.s. postal service. i will just mail my performance. >> i love this. >> he tweets me. >> does he really? >> don't be nervous today. >> like you. >> what's interesting is it's so friendly. he hasn't said a word to me. >> i got you mixed up with ron howard. >> can i ask you a serious question? >> i'm going to ask you a semi serious question. >> how do you change season two? >> i won't read. i will do a meeting. by that i mean calista. >> i will give you cheney.

>> casting is so key. everybody came back. >> it changed all of our lives. that was the first night we got together and this is an unsentimental group and everyone bust into applause. in the screaming they gave mitch about a 7 minute ovation before he talked. just thank you. >> if it came out after the modern family, if it came out four or five years later, would it still be on? it was almost ahead of its time. everything worked out fine. thank god fox picked us up. we did a dance and we have the biggest fan in the world. who doesn't need an @a boy?

>> they were drunk for a couple of years. >> the stock went down. >> they may have dabbled in heroin. >> good night, everyone. thank you. >> they got smart and cleaned up and did house of cards which was reef losingary. i played baseball and he was like @a boy! >> what if it crashes? >> you were raised the same way. >> bob wood ward considers bob sperling a historical figure. the great debate is next on "morning joe." ♪ [ car beeps ] ♪

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>> welcome back to "morning joe." history is filled with intimidating figures. ivan the terrible and gene sperling. that last name may not seem threatening, but the white house claimed he said he was. the characterization that david axelrod played out. >> we have been questioning the e-mails and whether or not re