so, there might be a velveeta shortage during the nfl playoffs, so for your dips, we thought we would solicit suggestions of a replacement. natalie sgro, time for one. >> >> how about this one, spam, hard boiled eggs and a jar of jalapenos slammed through a food processor. that sounds gross. ♪ stop, look around, here it comes ♪ >> and what i tried to do as a director, i try to -- the type is all off, sorry, but i'll just wing this. i try to take people on an emotional ride and, the curve,

how do you think it will impact how people view your movies? >> excuse me, i'm sorry, i'm sorry. >> okay. ladies and gentlemen, let's thanks michael bay for joining us. >> and he's gone. if michael bay doesn't stair directly into a computer simulated explosion every ten seconds, he loses focus and shuts down immediately. >> that's awful. good morning, it's wednesday, january 8th, welcome to "morning joe." it is cold. if you're not in new york, the northeast, it is cold out there. >> polar vortex. >> i hate that. i used to call that. >> it's not even 6:05 and he goes there. >> 6:01. >> someone else took their pants off the other day. >> on this show? the pants came off?

>> the belt. came it to joe. >> i don't want to hear about 78-year-olds having sex, okay? i mean, they can and they should, god bless them. or you guys doing it even while you're watching "morning joe," it's that simple, donnie. just keep it to injuries. i'll introduce you later. >> i'm sorry, just the whole -- >> paula vortex, donnie sex. >> from sex positions to political campaigns, have you ever had a candidate that's melted down like that on stage in a debate? i take it that you just didn't jump straight to the president -- >> did you watch the katie couric interview with governor palin? >> that felt like that. >> did it feel like that when it was going on?

>> yes. the difference is sarah palin didn't walk off the stage. she did stay there but i think she knew when that interview was going on that it wasn't going well. i certainly have worked for people who experienced what he experienced, the stage fright with a meltdown. >> let's talk about -- we're going to go right there with you. a lot of people assume you and sarah palin might not be on other people's christmas cards list. i'll ask you about george w. bush, a guy who has been nice and sweet to you, who you dearly love. your meeting, the first time i met him, jeb, brilliant guy but each can be prickley. >> serious. we call it serious. >> you're look i want him running my world but i might not invite him to thanksgiving

dinner. but meet george w. and, man, the guy is warm and great and you're like i love this guy immediately. i remember watching an ann richards debate, tore her to shreds. he was great. get in george w. bush's head, the more formal it was, the worse it was. he was never michael bay but isn't it as weird as someone can be as good as george w. bush is as good of a person but it gets in their head and it's tough. >> bush's first debate against john kerry was like that. and i just finished "double down" and what president obama's debate was against john kerry. >> that was one of the worst i'd

seen. >> those moments where he said "is my time up yet?" no, no, no, that's not what he'd do. george bush in '04 would talk and he'd ask for more time and they'd give him the time and he'd say "it's hard." >> i think that was the "saturday night live" skit. mika and i were talking about it yesterday, whether was writing musicals or playing in bands or coaching footballs, all those weird things, i'd walk into it and go i can do this. i get on tv in front of a camera for the first year and i was just sweating. >> i saw you yesterday -- >> everybody can deal with screw-ups. the rick perry for me was the most painful thing to watch. >> rick perry in the republican debate couldn't think of his own

agency. >> rick perry, though, i talked to him at the republican governor's association last year, that guy is awesome. i kicked him around but one-on-one, the most personable guy i've seen. some people you get them in front of a stage or on camera and -- >> well, gaffs are one thing, to just bail. obviously he couldn't ad lib. if you tell people look, i just got off a plane, i haven't read this stuff. but just to bail and -- >> i think it was so bad, i don't think the audience was insulted. i feel nothing but sympathy. >> but to just walk off the stage? >> and just throw up your hands and say i'm not doing this? >> i can't do this. >> i can't and if i'm sitting in the audience, i want it to end.

i don't want the guy throwing up on me in the front row. >> let's not shed a tear for michael bay making 50 million. >> this is what i haven't understood about sarah palin. we're just going free form today because mika's not here. that convention speech was one of the greatest out of nowhere performances i have ever seen. >> it want osn't out of nowhere. that was the magic that led to her selection. >> so did something get in her head between that and the katie couric interview? >> i think it what you're talking about. that was one of her natural moments shining through and i think the kate couric interview came two weeks later and by then

she was aware of somer her vast areas of -- >> there's a big difference between you giving a speech and q & a. >> at the same time giving speech is an art form, barack obama has shown us that. >> i sat next to a dinner before barack obama ran and he was awkward interpersonally. when you're on a stage in front of nows of people, there are actually no people out there, you're just by yourself speaking out there. one-on-one, very different scenario. >> and barack obama didn't have a great first debate in the 2012 campaign to say the least. >> it's terrible. >> let's do call aesthetics now.

>> i don't think president obama's debate did anything but improve the next two but george bush, he came back stronger. and i think sarah palin might have survived the katie couric interview if it had been followed by more sound performances and interviews. >> i've got to say, though, in sarah palin's defense, three words you don't -- four words you don't hear me saying very often, by the end of the campaign she was kicking ass, having huge crowds, delivering really good speeches while joe bidenen wou-- joe biden would h a couple of dozen people in the crowd. i think what she did after the campaign may have caused some bigger problems. i guess the bigger point is just like michael bell or george w.

bush or sarah palin, people don't realize that politicians a lot of times are like relief pitchers. you get a relief pitcher who thinks they can throw a 97 mile-an-hour fastball, the low are outside corner in their sleep, they do it. but they give up a home run, they go crazy. or a field goal kicker who can make 20 field goals in a row and then misses three. george w. bush, i could never understand why he could mow down ann richards the way he did and then cause me -- >> they're human. the public usually forgives the crime of being human. >> and myself on a really small

scale, when i got out of congress, people asked me to give speeches, i just sweated. >> when there are actual people looking at you, that makes me very nervous. >> in this 24/7, twitter, camera world that we don't see more gaffs. there's nothing a politician can ever speak and not be recorded an f-bomb. it's stunning. >> it has an impact on the way campaigns are going tock waged. in 2004 and president obama i think sort of replicated for him in 2008, if you could control and strategize the message and coordinate everything, you really could stay ahead. now you could be thrown off for days, weeks, indefinitely by some private moment that you think no one is recording like mitt romney learned the hard way with his comment about the 47%. >> let's really quickly and i

want to ask you guys what you think about this, i've got mixed feelings. there's a book right now that washington is really starting to talk about. a 600-page tell-all book by former defense secretary robert gates. it's extremely critical of the president, critical of biden and critical of former secretary of state hillary clinton. i don't know. you want to know the history of it, want to know his opinion you but i'm surprised. i just don't think you do -- i think you -- if you're going -- if you feel like you need to get policy differences out there, i think there are much better ways to do it than this, but i think robert gates was going to be on the show next week.

i have extraordinary respect for him. here's andrea mitchell. he has the story. >> reporter: when bob gates left the cabinet, the president surprised him with the medal of freedom. >> you're not only one of the longest serving secretaries of defense in american history, but it is also clear that you've been one of the best. >> i'm deeply honored and moved. >> reporter: but in his sensational new memoir, gates excoriates the president, vice president joe biden and former national security visser tom donellin for their handling of the war. he says after a march 2010 national security meeting gates writes "i thought the president doesn't trust his commander, candidate stand karzai, doesn't believe in his own strategy and doesn't consider the war to be

his. for him, it's all about getting out. this, although gates told matt lauer -- >> i think we're all on the same page. >> reporter: and while praising hillary clinton, gates expresses dismay at her telling the president -- still despite his unusually harsh criticism of obama, gates calls the president's approval of the raid against osama bin lad een one o most courageous decisions i've seen in the white house. >> 90 some young americans died in fallujah, 600 were wounded, now we see people driving around

with black al qaeda flags. that's so sad. what do we tell the families if. >> vice president candidate gates has he has been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue. the former secretary will be here a week from today. i agree with a lot of his criticisms. i really do. talking about these little white house kids, you know, that are way down the food chain calling commanding generals and -- >> shocking that they were even sort of permitted to have contact. that never would have happened. >> it was stunning on so many levels. he reveals a lot of things. again, i've got mixed feelings about this, we want to know the

history of it. but you actually say you've talked to some of the people involved in this book and they say that all of this first blush is a mischaracterization, that he's actually just as complementary of president obama but people in the press don't want to actually report that. >> it's the twitter impact of a book like this, a 600-page book -- >> they'll find thing in tiff stu -- negative stuff. >> and he calls the bin laden raid one of the most brave actions. he started as president bush's secretary of defense. he is the defense secretary that spent the most time on the wars in iraq and afghanistan. he talks about a difference in a

president who believes in the wars, was willing to spend every last scrap of credibility and bush didn't have as much as he liked and the president who even though he crafted these policies, he was never in support of them and he was never comfortable with the uniformed military, which is a devastating for a wartime president. >> he specifically said president obama let him know he didn't see the afghanistan war as his, he didn't own it but actually when he tripled the number of troops, he did own it and it was his war. >> when you're the commander in chief, they're all your wars. >> he also didn't trust david petraeus and he didn't trust hamid karzai. i agree with him on all of thos things which is why i opposed

tripling the number of troops in 2009. if he felt the same way, he shouldn't have tripled the number of troops. >> i think there's a level of responsibility when you're a second and you're serving an administration to not do a tell-all. unless we as the public -- >> they would say it's not a tell-all. >> i'm sure they left a lot of stuff out. >> i mean, other than him making money from this, how are we served? me running my company, you running the show, someone you trusted as a lieutenant, you've -- >> wait a second, wait a second, hundreds of mistakes? >> i'm being generous. >> you're being overly critical. >> the mcnamara thing, that was a mea culpa, what did we do? >> and this is the way i think

and it frustrates my on party, if i'm appointed by a republican who's an ally of mine and they screw up, you know, and at the end of it i may do what everybody else does and i might write a book and say, boy, this is what i disagreed about. but if a democrat trusts me to work in their administration, or vice versa, it's almost like the standard is even higher because they trusted a republican to work in a democratic administration and i just think it would send a bad message. i don't know. >> a, i agree with you about that, but i also think even if gates were a democrat, i just think writing that part of this book was bad form and wrong. i can imagine how you would feel if alex corsin decided to move on to something else and three weeks later wrote a book about you -- >> talk about a best seller.

>> he would never eat brie in this town again. >> alex, you hear that? >> i just think you don't do it. i just think you don't do it. >> i wouldn't do it. >> a lot of what's in that book about congress and the dysfunctionality of washington, a of that are important points and it would be great to break the log jam and get something done about that and a lot of it was contradictory and balanced and i'm somewhat more sympathetic to this idea it wasn't obama's war, he didn inherit this war, but all that aside, i just don't think you write the story about what everybody's underwear looks like. >> the sitting president has been wrong about every major

national security incident. >> well, he has been wrong about every -- >> i asked him why he wrote the book. they said he's dr. gates, a student of history and he believes these sorts of accounts -- the book ends with him talking about he wishes to -- his final resting place is to be buried in section 60 where all of the veterans of the wars in iraq and afghanistan are. and i think that someone who was that intimately involved in these wars writing the truth and not pulling their punches. >> the difference is i think there is a statute of limitations. i don't think you pick up your pen and do it the day you leave office. if you want to do a mcnamara 20 years later -- >> he'll be here next week but i think this is a book a lot of people will be interested in read ing. >> it's some of that but it's also a book where this guy had it all inside him, kept it all

buttoned up to the whole time he was there, to his credit, and it just let loose. >> i'm going to suggest something that cuts against the grain on the morning show, why don't we actually read the book. >> i thought the rules are we're not allowed to read a book. >> well, i prefer not to. i prefer to talk about things. >> new rules? >> new rules. again, on the other side of the ledger, he said several times he was impressed by barack obama's courage to go against what others wanted. >> and on his on white house staff. >> and on his on white house staff. i suspect president obama, also being a student of history and being a bit analytical my read through this books and not be quite as shocked as some of his supporters. but we'll see. coming up on "morning joe,"

james carville and mary matalin will be here with their new book, peter gammons will be on the set. it going to be about 3 degrees in cooperstown when they're announced. but here's bill karins with the forecast. bill, 7 degrees when we were coming in. i hear it's going to be in the 40s. >> it's going to be 50s over the weekend. did you think today was worse or yesterday morning was worse? >> today was colder to me. >> the temperature didn't really agree with that but maybe the excitement over it is over with and we've all had enough. the temperatures continue to be frigid from minneapolis to buffalo. this is the water fall in minneapolis that has frozen solid. in buffalo, the snow wouldn't stop. over a foot on the ground. the leak effect snow machine continues.

now the good news, this is a map you want to see, the brighter color, the 24-hour temperature changes, it's just about warmer than yesterday. at least we're heading in the right direction. the wind kill still negative numbers from new york to boston, buffalo, pittsburgh and very cold around minneapolis and fargo but we've had in theable improvement, especially in areas of the southeast. the january thaw is on the way. thursday through saturday, milder air will come and it will move up into the northeast. there will be rain with it on saturday, especially on the and sea board but it will be mild and leave you with a pretty nice sunday. looks like we have a mild stretch here until we could be back in the freezer between the 17th and 20th of january.

that's beautiful, minneapolis. when does that melt, by the way? april? may? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ say it again, oh, domino, hey, hey, i said, oh, oh, domino ♪ ore rainbows fall from the sky. [ female announcer ] remember when you thought anything was possible? [ laughing ] it still is. you can do weight watchers new simple start plan entirely online or on that magic phone of yours. it's a 2-week plan to start losing weight right away. join for free. weight watchers online. log into your new beginning today. bob will retire when he's 153, which would be fine if bob were a vampire. but he's not.

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>> four americans are dead after a u.s. air force helicopter crashed during a training mission. the accident happened off the coast of eastern england. officials believe the victims were four u.s. airmen on board. the helicopter was a modified version of a blackhawk that's frequently used for search and rescue missions. >> "new york times," authorities in new york say they've broken up a disability scam. cost the taxpayers merely $400

million. some are accused of saying they suffered post traumatic stress from 9/11, even though they were nowhere near ground zero. >> and security concerns surrounding the olympic games intensified. big news yesterday, lindsey vaughn not going to be there. that takes a big star out. >> yeah. >> the number of smokers worldwide has never been higher, especially in china and indonesia between 1980 and 2012. the number of daily smoker increased by nearly 280 million. here's the good news for us. cigarette smoking dramatically declined in the u.s. offer the last 50 years.

anti-t ant anti-tobacco has saved nearly 8 million american lives. it has increased the average age of death in this country by two years. for anybody to start smoking today, can you imagine what an idiot you must be. >> if you're going to start smoking today -- >> if you live in new york, where would you smoke? it's illegal anywhere. >> if mayor bloomberg had another year, do you think he would have been able to makes sex illegal within city limits? >> he's a great believer in sex. it's part of that 74-year-old thing you were talking about. >> but that's okay. >> it's more than okay. >> he puts it under physical fitness and calorie burning.

>> take all the time you gain from not smoking and not consuming transfats and that's what you do. >> i have a lot more respect for him. >> where is he on legalizing pot? >> i don't know where he is on legalizing it -- >> but he smoked it. >> during his campaign he said he smoked pot and people said did you inhale? he said of course i did. and i liked it. and it didn't make him stupid. >> everything in moderation. go to political, got a new column out about pot making you dumb. stoners were so angry over the past three or four days. i grew up around stoners. >> i think that comment made it seem like you smoked a lot of pot. >> i didn't.

>> where is the politico -- >> i wrote about it. i played in bands from the time i was 13 and i think i probably was around more pot and morrill legal drugs of which i never partook in -- >> nothing? >> nothing. because i saw what it made other people do. >> yeah. >> and they were so stupid. and it's in moderation. do you know how many friends i have in by the way, i'm not carrie nation here, for those of you that are stoned and don't read history. but most of my heros smoke pot. paul mccartney -- >> barack obama. >> he's probably smoking pot right now and that's cool, that's fine. >> i feel like too many people hate me. i don't want to get the pot

people mad, too. >> have you ever smoked pot? >> i went to berkeley. listen, i have a little kid. i would rather it be harder than easier for my kid to get pot. i don't think it makes you smarter. i don't think it makes you better. should it be illegal? i don't know. but i don't think we're at the point where we're recommending this for anybody at a formative age. >> i think the drug war against pot is insanity. and -- and kids in scarsdale, white kids in scarsdale, mom, i just picked out scarsdale, okay? i don't know that your son is in his room right now smoking the evil weed, okay? i'm just saying in scarsdale white kids can do it and if they're doing it -- if black kids are doing it in the south bronx, obviously the justice

system does not administer the laws fairly. so i've got a lot of problems with it. just the complete legalization of it -- >> as a parent, i don't want my kid to have the substances to navigate. >> and i have seen more people harmed by alcohol and prescription drugs? of course, of course. i also am very glad that the level of alcohol keeps going down. it used to be 1.2. it's 0.8. it could be 0.6. >> but you don't drive well -- >> i don't drive well sober. >> would you rather have your kid smoke pot or -- >> i'm just saying we have a substance that we know kills

people, cigarettes, which are legal if you're over 21 and pot is still criminal. >> it's really picking your poison, though. if my son is smoking cigarettes and he's smoking a pack or two a day, then i know over time that's going to kill him. if my son is sitting in the room listening to "do you feel like we do" and smoking a lot of pot day after day after day -- >> that's not what he's saying. >> obviously a joint on a saturday night, i know a lot of really, really highly functioning, successful, rich people that still do that. i'm just talking though, again, kids. >> if i can make that choice -- >> one saturday night? >> if we're talking one saturday night -- >> i'd rather have them smoke one cigarette than smoke pot. >> i think a typical recreational pot user out in colorado, that's what they're

doing. >> how do you know? >> i don't know. i'm just trying to compare what would be a typical usage pattern of one versus the other. if you smoke pot every day, 24 hours a day -- >> i'm not talking about 24 hours a day. i'm saying at least where i was and you at berkeley, there were a lot of people -- look at her, she's smart. >> nobody agrees with you. >> i'll be the first to admit that maybe because i grew up in bands and played with the guys, maybe band members, maybe musicians abuse it more than a kid in a dorm room somewhere on a saturday night. so maybe, maybe i get a more extreme view of it. but i was the guy constantly picking people up off the floor and dragging them, you know, to their home or, you know. as i said in the column, don't even get me started on the gay way drug but a lot of my friends that were smoking pot at 13 and 14 that i was getting out of trouble and dragging them home

and puts them in bed so their parents didn't see them, when they were 18 and 19, i was walking in and telling them, dude, don't do coke, don't drop acid. you know, i have sat with a lot of kids that when i was a kid crying in rehab. >> but i will show you 95% -- 99% of the people i know who have smoked pot who have not gone on to other things. >> your experience is different from my experience. it may be because you get together with a bunch of millionaires and you guys smoke pot on saturday night. >> i think the medical evidence is it's not really a gate way drug. >> one in six kids who try it is becomes addicted. >> to pot? >> yes. >> pot is not an addictive drug.

>> you know what i wish i would have done when i was young is drop acid. >> steve jobs said it's -- moms in scarsdale, i'm joking again! >> as a parent, i wish it was getting harder to get their hands on drugs. >> that's another thing. i think a lot of this is driven by the fact that we're parents. and donnie has rented a couple of kids so chicks are more likely to date him as he says. >> he's got dogs, too, for that. >> but i'm open about it. that's the thing. as long as you're transparent, same reason i wear these bracelets. i haven't shown you my best thing. no, no, no i take out my wallet. >> keep your pants on. >> people go what is that? i go my daughters made it for me. my fake daughters made this

wallet for me. >> the only thing you're missing is a puppy. >> he has fake dogs. i know his dog walker. >> one of the best things, when asked about donny deutsch's show, he goes it's okay but it's a pretty expensive way to pick up girls. that is a lot cheaper way to do it right there. >> i just want to say, i'm not moralistic about this stuff. i grew up around it. and i told my kids growing up, smoke pot and it's not going to keel yo kill you, it's not the evil weed but it it's going to make you dumb. >> coming up, peter gammons will not be talking about pot. mike barnicle is standing by.

they're going to discuss the new baseball hall of fame inductees. we're going to talk about that. ♪ they do the walk, do the walk ♪ ♪ we'll come to your door and return them ♪ ♪ gifts you bought but never gave away ♪ ♪ or said you liked but thought were cheesy ♪ ♪ you don't even need to leave your house ♪ ♪ we'll come and take them, easy-peasy ♪ [ female announcer ] no one returns the holidays like the u.s. postal service. with improved priority mail flat rate, just print a label, schedule a pickup, and return those gifts at a same low flat rate.

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♪ talking baseball >> mlb analyst peter gammons joins us with a preview of the hall of fame announcements and mike barnicle is here as well. >> well, peter, can you only vote for ten. who did you vote for? >> for the first time i did it in order. i thought that the ballot restricted to ten people, i thought there were about 15 i'd like to vote for. so i did it one through ten. my first one of degrees maddux, jeff bagwell, mike mussina, frank glavine, kurt shilling and jeff thomas. i think maddux is going to get in for sure. i think glavine gets in almost certainly i think frank thomas gets in and there's a very good

chance that craig biggio gets in. i think nate silver should have been hired to go through it. these people go to every web site, when somebody publishes a ballot, they put it on a web site and now it's like following the election. >> let me ask you guys maddux, have you guys ever seen anybody that can place a baseball better on a corner than maddux in. >> no. >> 355 wins in this modern age is stunning. >> it will never happen again. >> and we just watched him on the mound and i watched him a lot. the guy just placed it where he wanted and he wasn't overpowering, wasn't overwhelming. >> let me ask you a question before we bounce it to peter. do you recall watching jack morris pitch for the tigers, blue jays, twins. >> talk about a money pitcher. >> oh, yeah.

he beat news '91. >> so does he get in? >> i don't think he does. i think the division -- they call it old time, new time. the analytic world, which is a huge part of the baseball industry today and a huge part of our viewership on mlb network, they're so opposed to morris. >> on what grounds? >> he really wasn't that great, he played for great teams and that really helped him. what hurts his this time around -- understand there hasn't been a starting pit pitcher -- bert bly levin broke in. and at the height of his career his e.r.a. was two runs lower than the national average in the middle of the steroids and

glavine, too. >> we're both love the states and they help you understand the game. but sabermetrics does not have eyesight and does not see him out there willing himself a victory for his team. he gets a win. do wins no longer count as much as they used to? >> people talk a lot about how wins are overrated and they don't count. it was talked about the third highest winning percentage in games he started, it was a really good piece. all of a sudden on twitter there are all these -- oh, he's become an old man, wins are irrelevant. so i just wrote the world series is awarded to the teams that win the most games in october. wins do matter. now, there are complexities and it's not always individual games. i understand all that but the fact that we have four pitchers

that are ahead of him on this ballot, maddux, glavine, mussina, shilling really hurt him. >> if you had to vote clemmons, bonds, do you vote him in the hall of fame? >> no, but i'd vote pete rose. >> i'd put pete rose in. i would eventually, even though he was the most offensive to me, i would eventually put barry bonds in. i remember when bonds was 30-30. i remember having this debate back in 1990 before his head started exploding because all of the roids use. so even though these a jerk and a big cheater, i think you can actually with barry bonds cut a line and say let's look at what he did before. >> it's hard, clemens and bonds were hall of fame talents before

whatever they did. what's interesting about bonds is that he did go through life sort of saying to people i'm barry bonds and you're not. but at the same time he was absolutely brilliant. >> but he said it ain't bragging if you can do it. >> and he's so smart about hitting. the two people, and i was lucky enough over my career to go out to eat, spend a lot of time with them talking about hitting, he and ted williams were so much alike, intellectualized the game so much. >> mike? >> i'd vote them in. i'd want a plaque explaining the steroid region. >> even sosa? >> yeah. >> what about pete rose? >> he ought to be in. >> how can that guy not be in? >> and his offenses were as a

manager. frankly, pete rose wasn't a very good manager but he was a very good player. >> well, he was busy on the phone. >> he had to figure out what was going on at belmont in the sixth. how could he be worried about going to the pen. >> lineup card? he was trying to figure out what the line in the race was. >> there were allegations that he had basically used his bullpen on whether he bet the game. okay, fine. i understand all that, there are all the signs in the clubhouse that you can't bet and so forth but -- >> come on. >> i do think eventually rose will get in. >> pete rose the player, give him the plaque and have a little black band on the bottom. >> the suggestion has been made that you have a separate wing in

cooperstown for pete rose and barry bonds and probably me. >> that's the first too many i heard the comparison between bonds and ted williams. you put him in that category? >> brilliant guy. flawed. >> okay, the hall of fame election announced today at 2:00 p.m. if yand you're talking toevere rheuyour rheumatologistike me, about trying or adding a biologic. this is humira, adalimumab. this is humira working to help relieve my pain. this is humira helping me through the twists and turns. this is humira helping to protect my joints from further damage. doctors have been prescribing humira for over ten years.

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i imagine, you noknow, it's not going to be like the wild west in colorado. there's going to be some stringent limits. >> pot purchasers must be at least 21 years old. >> check. rules out the kidies. >> you can't light up in public and police rule you still can't drive high. >> what? well, then riddle me this, batman, why does taco bell have a drive-thru? >> welcome back to "morning joe," nicole wallace still with us, mike barnicle. so so much pot at berkeley -- >> oh, no, nothing.

>> nicole has a 2-year-old. how would you know if james will a marijuana brownie? >> we used to put vodka in orange juice in the bottle to keep the baby -- >> used to? used to? >> did you really in. >> did you have to put a straw in it, though. >> a sippy cup. >> we're kind of with you on the libertarian side. >> with us at the table, george carville and mary matalin, the new book "love & war." tell us about it. >> we just wanted to come say hello to you, it's been a long time, we were in new york. >> okay, thanks so much. bye. >> there were aspects during 20 years where the two of you would go for various lengths of time

without speaking to one another. >> i worked with mary during some of those during the bush years, right? >> oh, yes. we did iraq together. that was one of those -- >> did something worth not speaking over. 20 years with mary, we were right there for all of the stuff that happened and a lot of part of the clinton administration. she was working for vice president cheney in 2001. and we were a bit involved in the recovery of katrina in new orleans for some team noime now. we had a lot of things that had happened in our lives, been married for 20 years so it seemed like a good time to recount what we've seen and what we've been through. >> and compare then with now. we thought '92, such a nasty campaign, '93, '94, such

horrible environment. but, god, compare it to now, it's just insane. >> honestly, i said i would never write another book, it's like giving birth without an i epidurl. >> i had to give james an epidurl for our baby because he can't couldn't take it. >> you know, seven years ago we were 15 feet underwater, who could forget that from the bush white house and now we're the number one tourist destination, number one silicon south, entrepreneurials. a lot of this is about how that happened and how good citizens, informed, virtuous citizens who love a place and come together and do it.

>> that's the politics of reality. >> no, you're right. >> in washington it's just unreal. there's no decision they make in washington that affects someone at the end of each day really. really in new orleans or any city or mayor, their decisions affect people, a traffic light -- >> every day, every hour. you go to the movies -- i was standing in line to go to "harry potter" with mitch. everybody in lien is like you didn't fix that streetlight. but it was more than that. there was a lot more than that. but you're accountable. the closer to the people you are, the more accountable you are, the greater the reality it is and hence it works. >> what a disconnect between washington, though. whether you were talking to main street republicans or tea party raspberry like nikki haley, n k

nick -- nikki haley said, hey, we can't afford to shut down the government money. >> we live in a democratic city in a republican state. every -- we were the chairmen of the super bowl committee. so we had to go to the governor, mary had to work with the city. that's the hand that you're dealt, you just live in the environment that you're in. you just have to. you don't get to change the rules. >> you think part of the problem with what's going on in washington now is obviously republicans are dug in and they want president obama to fail but also president obama, unlike bill clinton wasn't a democrat in a republican state or at least in a conservative state and never really had to deal with people that were coming at hmm all the time?

>> you have different views on this. imagine that. we have different views. i think the notion of the resistance to compromise is not a sickness, it's a reality. we've never been this much in debt, we've never had a government that's been this entrucive and you just -- you got to say no. just say no. i just feel like that's why this is not look some sort of like we're throwing temper tantrums in washington. we have a situation that chris christie this in new jersey or scott walker had in wisconsin, there are lots of states who did what mitch did -- >> has anybody noticed that the debt has dropped faster in the last four years since any time since the war? >> you're taking out the 1.4

trillion a year -- >> that's like me telling ma, i got twice as good in math and -- >> was this prada, it's 40% on sale but that doesn't make it free. >> we worked together. people used to always say how do they go home, you know, at night with all these really polarizing issues going on? i think one of the most interesting things, james, you had to endure a lot of us around you during the white house years because mary was always very welcoming to all of us. but i think sometimes people wonder if it moderated you. mary, you said you went totally tea party. it's had no moderating effect, right? >> it took us a long time we're not going to change anybody's

mind. it's a gigantic waste of times. >> isn't it true about anybody? you have your views -- >> inflexible minds are boring minds. the one thing i said before marriage and to this day the one thing i want out of life is to not be bored. i'm not bored. you never persuaded me. >> he's persuaded so many people, mary. >> he's never changed your mind on an issue? >> i have changed my mind on the death penalty. i don't know if you did it or catholicism did it or -- >> it might have been pat robertson. a lot of republicans, a lot of conservatives changed their mind on the death penalty. >> what really keeps me open is my class at tulane. i force them -- i assign -- i'll say a through l write the keystone pipeline as a good thing, the rest of you write it as a bad thing. >> has mary changed your mind on anything? >> well, politically, i don't

know that she's changed my mind politically. >> but it certainly made you more understanding of other people that share her views. i remember willie geist saying he was raised in new york, he went down to vanderbilt and suddenly all of his friends that he played basketball with and loved were all george bush fans. and it took him a few days maybe he's not evil, maybe we just think differently. he said that was really important for him. >> we went through a long period as you do in any relationship why do you think the way you think? i understand he's a liberal. i understand the kind of liberal he is and it's the kind of liberal i admire. he's a civil rights liberal of the 60s from the south. that is a good motivation. and on the activist government and all this stuff, i can't hear you, i'm not listening --

>> i would describe myself as more of an economic liberal and socialist traditionalist. >> you'd do well in pennsylvania, wouldn't you? >> yeah, probably. but i do think that people need to -- parents got to be better. they're a big role what happens in this country and a lot of times what happens is the government becomes the de facto parent. general electric does not want a child with a 31-year-old grandmother. they doesn't want to n't want t responsible for it. everybody goes this child with the 31-year-old grandmother didn't turn out very successfully. that child has a stacked deck against them. >> do you subscribe to the theory that one of the most underrated aspects of life, culture, politics in this country is good parenting? good parenting is such a foundation that we miss so much

of it in this country. >> it is but let's be fair and the teen pregnancy rate now is at a 20-year low. we got to acknowledge some progress. i agree completely. there are things that parenting can do, that makes me in a sense a southern traditionalist. i am 100% for gay marriage, marijuana legalization, we're not totally sure here. >> he's the conservative on that. i'm like -- >> i tend to be more traditionalist on these kinds of thing. the gay stuff i've become completely persuaded of. >> going to your point, and this is why i love him, when we have things we're in common, then we

go into teach it to america. in new orleans we had the highest education reform rate in the country. it's teacher america. it tryi it's trying new things. there's no magic solution, there's no one size fits all, we have to start over and take one kid at a time. it takes a village, dare i say. >> that that sense, yes. >> so you just quoted hillary clinton, "it takes a village." let me ask you, did katrina show that sometimes having the freedom to start all over -- no, no, actually -- you were more interested in jobs than kids. >> to be fair, education reform started before katrina.

>> is that true? >> it started with leslie jacobs in new orleans. all these reforms came through -- a vast majority came through under the administration of the governor. >> did they accelerate after katrina? >> they kicked in because a lot of schools were done. yes. but the true history of -- and it's worked well in new orleans. that stuff doesn't work in a lot of other places. it's a tool. it's not a magic formula. i think we spend a lot of time about how to make 10% of the teachers that are truly great in the school or the 5% that are really bad and just think about it. if we just made the 85 out there who are from pretty good to very good better, you're going to affect a lot more kids but that's another debate. but it did -- i do think that what happened in new orleans has been a very, very uplifting and very positive story. and we have a place also on the

gulf coast that was a different event. that was an act of nature. what happened in new orleans was a massive engineering failure and we have to always keep that in mind. >> we do. what happened in mississippi, towns were completely wiped out. >> we've seen our mutual friend rahm emanuel, who is trying very hard in chicago and other good mayors in philly, et cetera, you almost have to be at rock bottom, which gafs me great hope for detroit. i would see new orleans as the extent of the religious community, the church is very active, there is a multi-denominational, ecumenical, everybody pulls together. when you have those confluence of events, starting with it's this or we're going to be living in teepees, you're incentivized

in a way they don't have the luxury. >> the secret in new orleans, and i think people finally understood this, we have the most culture, you know what our music sounds like, you know what our food tastes like, and that culture was under environmental assault and it really rallied to a way -- and that's what really drew the city together is to protect the culture of new orleans. 809 restaurants today that katrina hit, today there are like 1,350. >> how many is that -- come on down! >> the book is "love & war," please read the excerpt of it

and you can see james and mary tonight. >> who dat? >> still ahead on "morning joe." >> you don't have to justify, you got a bad hit, you got a bad hit. >> no. because maybe it looked like blood? that's not probable cause to make an entry? >> you want to wait for another kid to die? >> we're going to be talking to the godfather of tv, producer dick wolf joins us. i wish i had that voice. first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> in buffalo, another foot of today. the cars are moving out there but not much. d.c., good things coming for you over the weekend. it will rain a little bit but temperatures will be much warmer. and there's the snow band over

buffalo, classic lake effect snow coming off of lake erie. north dakota, wisconsin, right through new england, talk about new orleans, wind chill of 25. but the good news for you is the warming trend will be quick, especially the southern half of the country, mild air thursday through saturday but there will be rain that comes along with it, friday in the midwest, saturday on the east coast. look at d.c. we could be up to 62 on saturday and a really nice sunday, 55 degrees. you can do some stuff outdoors in that sort of weather. today the arctic chill remains minneapolis to new england but it will be, itting quickly. you're watching "morning joe." buffalo, i don't know how you do it but you do. we'll be right back. ♪ coming to an end, well, you wanted something better, man ♪

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with us now is the author of the new book "reset," how to beat the job loss blues and get ready for your next act. dwain, mika and jim are good friends of yours. tell us how it started. >> i was never out of work. mika and i have been friends for over two decades, almost like sister and brother. our spouse, we got together, my wife and i, we met in i think bronxville to have dinner and i started explaining what i was going through. she looked at me, it's almost like i was speaking greek. she was like what are you talking about? she was blown away about how i was articulating this pain and suffering. >> and not on to you but what it

was doing to your wife and your daughter, the entire family. for so many people out there who have lost their jobs, it's not just about their profession, it's about their entire personal life. >> it wipes out every part of your life. i could see her get goose bumps and she looked at me and said, look, you have to write about this. you have to write a book about this, you are so articulate. i had never written a book but i had those skill sets and things to folks here, setting at this table, started talking to a cross section of america and really became the canary in a coal mine and reported on the front loons ines of unemploymen. >> how old were you when you lost your job? >> i was 49. that's almost like a death centers if you lose your job at 49 in terms of getting the same job back. how did do you it? >> that's the feeling, death

sentence. it's not really. but that is the feeling. people out there have to understand that this book brings hope and shows hope, there is hope. and how you do it is you tap in. don't go it alone. one of the things i say is don't go it alone. join a group. isolating is the worst thing you can do. >> and that's what people do. his story is the story of my dad when my dad was unemployed back when 40 was like 49. mika also knows his story so well because as a woman she was fired on her 39th birthday in the tv industry, as you know, that's pretty much a death sentence. they all fought back. and as mika said and dwain has said, actually at the end getting fired was the best thing that ever happened to they will. >> you and i talked for the book. one thing i say to a lot of people when they lose their jobs at 50, maybe it's time for a

hard right turn. sometimes you have to -- sometimes people would come in, agency people and they'd been in the business 25 years. i hug them and say there's not 15 other jobs for you in the industry but let's do a reboot. what did you love as a kid? fish as a kid? let's open an aquarium store. sometimes when you're forced to start a new game -- >> i love that conversation we had. when you're going through unemployment at least the first six months, the psychology of it is denial and you almost don't want to hear that. it was great to hear new plain speak say get over it, it's time to move on, reinvent yourself. >> meek, that's what happened with mika, who gave up a great

job at cbs after she got fired, she came here and she did cut-ins at night, 30-second cut-ins, she got paid the bare minimum, she begged for the job after being in tv for 20 years. my dad was an engineer at lockheed, his favorite job ever to cold calling and knocking on doors later for an insurance company because he couldn't get a job and in both cases their worlds actually -- it took them to a better place than they'd ever been. >> i think we have to be a little bit less. >> sachsrin. >> dwain's living in this world right now. if you don't have this attitude, you're going to be sitting in bed depressed and the negativity feeds on itself, does it not? >> i'm not disagreeing. there are 5 million people out

there who is been out work six months or more. they're not all going to find jobs whether they're in bed or out of bed in the construct of this economy. >> that was deonnie's point. >> that was my point, too. my father didn't find another job at lockheed. that was mika's point, too. they had to take ten steps back. >> if you're 50 years old and you had that $175,000 a year job as a management supervisor, that's gone. as soon as you understand that and say i can't do that anymore -- >> alex is trying to tell me something but i can't hear him. >> i think he wants you to talk

about charts. >> my book is not about charts. >> if we're going to talk about charts, let me illustrate how different this recession is from any other recession by comparing the long-term unemployed, the people who have been out of work for 26 weeks. >> i did do a lot of research on what you had written in the past when i was writing the book. >> thank you. if you look at this chart, you'll see in this recession, people long-term unemployed, those out 26 monthmonths or more question in washington is whether to cut off long-term unemployment benefits. if you want to look at who's affected and how many people are out there right now and are

susceptible to losing this, you can look at this next chart and you can see as has been well publicized, there are 1.3 million people who have lost them, and this keeps going. by june it's 2.2 million, there's 5 million people out there. >> so steve's charts underline everything you say and you did a lot of research in this book. you really were like the canary in the coal mine. and by the way, you're a guy who was fired at 49, not 29. europe a guy in one of these jobs, as donnie said, that went away forever. >> i really relate to donnie. i would say i'm a very type a person, entrepreneurial but what i found is i was devastated after six months. the whole idea of the book is really how to keep your sanity while going through a job search during the worst job market through the great depression. i remember talking with you

about pensions. what's pensions today? so i think -- there's a lot of historical references in the book that i think will help people. >> losing a job is one thing and how you cope with losing a job is obviously a difficult environment. losing your self-confidence as a result of losing the job is something entirely different. how long did it take or did you lose any self-confidence and how long did it take for you to get back on a firm self-confident footing? >> look, for me what i realized when i was writing this book, i was reinventing myself without knowing it. i had no self-confidence. i remember calling mika at one point and she says, dwain, you are sounding so desperate right now, you are annoying me so much i can't talk to you but i know how you feel because i've been there. what i've learned is there are two types of people. there's the people when they're out of work and they lose a job,

they look at it as this is a market reality, it not me, i'm going to continue to plug away, look for work, you know, increase my skill sets, could what it takes but in time i'll find a job. then there's the other side of the ledger that says i'm a complete loser, i have no skills, i took the wrong page going back to kindergarten. that was me. and it shouldn't have been but that's what this does to you. >> but that's not just you, though. >> no, it's millions. >> i remember again whether it happened in the 70s with my dad or whether it happened with mika ten years ago or whether it happened with you that,es the real danger here is you do what my dad did, you do what mika did, you do what you did. you weak up in the morning, sit at the end of your bed with nowhere to go, no job to have and the negativity just feeds on you and takes you down a black hole where you think, like i did in dark times, i'm a loser, i can't do anything, i've made all of these mistakes and the

self-hatred comes in and it can consume you until you fight back. >> but you have to. you have to. >> and mika fought back and so many others are fighting back right now. >> you can't go it alone. i was lucky to have friends like mika. also, you have to become a student of the process. if you've been an executive working with a corporation for 15 years and doesn't have a linked-in page and you don't have a cv and you get let go, it's like buying a house for the first time. you have to learn it. >> at your age, it's a lot easier than if you're 55 or -- >> no, i agree. >> my friends in their 60s, it's not happening. >> become a student of it, don't go it alone and keep your expectations in line. it's going to take longer than six months. >> you nope what the most

disturbing aspect of this conversation has been? >> what's that? >> the thought of donnie hugging people. >> and then he gives them the kiss of death going you will never get a job. >> tough love. >> we're going to have you back when mika is here. i'm going to interview both of you guys because you have so many parallels. the thing you have in common is you you guys both felt back. >> i thank mike and donnie for being in the book. >> you didn't tell me that -- >> i mailed you the book. >> you can buy dwain's book, "reset, how to beat the job loss blu blues, get ready for the the next act in your life."

it's resetyourfuture.com. go to the site. it's pretty special. >> coming up next, new criticism for the president's terror policy straight ahead. ♪ watching some good friends scream let me out ♪ when i first started shopping for a hybrid... i didn't even look at anything else. i just assumed you went and bought a prius. so this time around we were able to do some research and we ended up getting a ford... which we love. it's been a wonderful switch. it has everything that you could want in a car. it's the most fun to drive... because it's the most hi tech inside... i think this c-max can run circles around the prius... the biggest difference would definitely be the acceleration of the car... if you can get someone to test-drive a c-max... they would end up buying this more times than not.

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i want to try it. the white house is launching an internal investigation. let me try this again. this is a serious -- >> i'm sorry. >> this is a serious story. are we live, t.j.? okay, we're going to stop talking about drug usage. the white house is launching an internal investigation into a drone strike in yemen. michael isikoff joins us with more. the drone program has been controversial. we've expanded it significantly and criticism coming in. now this story. what you got? >> reporter: more than seven months after president obama gave the speech promising

tighter standards on drone strikes, there's in controversy over striking video in yemen last month that local villagers say hit a wedding party. drones have become the weapon choice. this exclusive video showing the bodies of victims of the pentagon drone strike on december 12th was taken by a yemeni journalist and given by a human rights group critical of the u.s. drone policy. they say the drone was aiming for this man but local villagers were in a convoy this was part of a wedding procession. yes, for sure it was a wedding, this villager says. they say the terrorist was wounded and escaped and in a rare acknowledge, officials tell

nbc news they have started an internal investigation. the u.s. and yemen have cooperated on fighting terrorists but yemen's parliament voted to ban drone strikes. "america sheds the blood" this banner reads. a yemeni official arrived to offer compensation, cash and rifles. >> it is a hard fact that u.s. strikes have resulted in civilian casualties. for me and those in my chain of command those deaths will haunt us as long as we live. >> reporter: one former obama administration official who has questioned u.s. drone policy says while the footage doesn't prove whether civilians or militants were killed, the administration needs to be far more open about what happened. >> it's impossible to look at that footage and conclude

anything other than that some people were killed and terribly injured, but that just to me highlights the importance of having a really robust and transparent process and right now we don't seem to have one at all. >> reporter: nbc news showed the video to white house officials and they declined to comment on it. joe, we talked to the journalist who shot that footage in yemen. he said he has no sympathy for al qaeda but he says talking to villagers right after that strike, there was real rage and anger at the united states and the yemeni government and it has created more sympathy for al qaeda. that's going to be what may be the most disturbing aspect of this, the sympathy we create for our enemies. >> and nicole wallace said something i've been concerned about for some time, we are creating a generation of

enemies. >> this is sort of the "homeland" generation, what gets put in motion when a drone strike arrives. it seems that the obama administration has, if anything, increased their reliance on drones. is there any evidence to the contrary? >> well, look, certainly over the course of the entire obama white house, there was that dramatic increase in drone strikes in the first few years. last year as criticism began over drone strikes, there was some reduction, but i think, you know, one of the things this footage does is remind us that while everything else seems to be blowing up in the mideast, we are still waging an aggressive drone war in yemen and it's killing people and it's creating controversies like this. >> and possibly creating enemies for a generation to come. michael isikoff, thank you so

much. we really appreciate your reporting. >> thank you, joe. >> coming up next, it could be in the running for best picture, oscar, the writer, producer and the story of philomena. >> fantastic. >> absolutely love it. >> steve coogan is going to be joining us next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ [ girl ] roses are red. violets are blue.

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>> obese? >> i watched this documentary that said a lot of americans are huge. what if that happened to him? >> what makes you think he'd be obese? >> because of the size of the portions. >> we were just talking about that. i didn't know that was the clip they were going to play. >> that was a clip from "philomena." steve coogan wrote the screen play and joins us at the table. mike barnicle said this is an extraordinary film. of course for movie goers they will know the movie steve was in "the other guys." >> i was making "the other guys" when i came across this story. i was on down time, not being the lead actor, you get a lot of time sitting around doing nothing. >> you came across this story.

tell us about it. >> i saw it online in the "guardian" newspaper, it was about the catholic church stole my child. it was about this island where they would take these unwed mothers, they were ostracized because it was a shameful this evening to have a baby out of wedlock and the babies were shipped off to america and the film is about the search for that child. >> make, you say you absolutely love it. >> everybody in it is great. the story is spellbinding and funny, as the clip would prove. have you gotten any criticism from the church, from the catholic church as a result of the movie? >> in ireland we have had a

little criticism, those who say they looked after the children at the time. >> we won't give away the whole movie because i would encourage people to see it but the trail of trying to find judi dench's son, who is adopted take them to where the son works in the reagan white house. >> thanks for blowing that. >> the fact is they were looking for each other. >> when you're involved in something like this, it's obviously from a passionate interest in telling the story. are you surprised, then, when the awards come and the acclaim comes and people like mike say it's the best movie he's ever seen? it's obviously getting a ton of attention and a ton of praise.

it's both a commercial success and -- >> well, the critics like it and the pundits seem to be showing up to see it in droves. it's incredibly gratifying. the thing about the movie is there are criticisms leveled at the church. philomena herself, she a woman of faith throughout the whole movie and she dignifies it at the end. some people have said it's an anti-religious movie and weinstein, my good friend, was involved in this? >> yes, he was involved. >> what you're saying is, you've actually lost money doing this? one of my favorite stories, barnicle, you may have told me this. when harvey sat down with -- after -- after matt damon's

first movie, "goodwill hunting." they had the discussion over the table with the dad. harvey's sitting there crying explaining how he actually lost $25 million on "good will hunting." there would be no royalties coming. other than that how was working with harvey? >> it's okay. i'm keeping a very close eye on him. he's keeping a close eye on me. we just circle each other. you know, he's a good person to have on your side. >> yes, he is. >> rather than having him on the opposition side. and he never misses an opportunity to make people -- >> say what you want about him, whether you like him or not like him, he is a champion of great movies. >> he is. oh, my god, he is. >> you look at big grossing movies today, they're cartoons. animation. robots. this is a story. >> i think he's making -- he's championing and distributing movies that would not have -- the kind of movies studios used

to make. instead of this big movies studios do these days. >> thanks r f s for coming. we're obese. >> there's some slim americans. >> portion sizes, man. make them bigger. steve, thank you so much. we loved having you here. still ahead, the man behind the "law & order" franchise is taking his vision to the second city. dick wolf is going to join the discussion. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses. if you have a business idea, we have a personalized legal solution that's right for you. with easy step-by-step guidance, we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. start your business today with legalzoom. became big business overnight? ♪

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on tomorrow's show, arianna huffington. actress mindy kaling. former secretary of defense bill gates. and hillary clinton. straight ahead on "morning joe."

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and what i try to do as a director, i try to -- the type is all off. sorry. i'll just wing this. i try to take people on an emotional ride. >> the curve? how do you think it's going to impact how viewers experience your movies. >> excuse me. i'm sorry. i'm sorry. >> okay. ladies and gentlemen, let's think michael bane for joining us. >> and he's gone. to be fair, michael bay had never actually read the script

before that. he got confused when the teleprompter didn't turn into a robot. if he doesn't stare into a computer simulated focus every ten minutes he loses his focus and shut down completely. >> 8:00 a.m. on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. have you ever had a candidate like that that's melted down in a debate. >> i mean, yes. did you watch the katie couric interview? >> the what? >> the katie couric interview with governor palin? >> yeah. >> that felt like that. >> did it feel like that while it was going on? >> yes. but, i mean, the difference is that sarah palin didn't walk off the stage. you know, she did stay there. i think she knew when that interview was going on that it wasn't going well. but i certainly have worked for people who i feel like were experiencing what he experienced. this whole stage fright combined

with a meltdown. >> so let's talk about -- we can talk about michael bay. we're going to go right there with you and make you really uncomfortable. a lot of people assume you and sarah palin may not be on each other's christmas card lists. i want to ask you about, like, george w. bush. a guy you dearly love who's been great to you and sweet, nice and wonderful to you. george bush, you meet him -- first time i met him, oh, my god. this is the most personalable guy. jeb, brilliant guy, but he can be prickly. >> serious. >> i want him running my world. i may not want to invite him over to thanksgiving dinner. >> i bet he'd be fun at thanksgiving dinner. >> if he decides he wants to be fun at thanksgiving dinner with you, he will. if not, he won't. but george w., meet george w., and, man, the guy is warm and great. you're like, i love this guy. immediately. i remember watching the ann richards debates, just tore her

to shreds. i was just cheering. he was great. but, you know, he had -- >> his first debate -- >> when you got in his head, when you got in george w. bush's head the more formal it was, the worse it was. he was never michael bay. but isn't it weird how some people can be as good as george w. bush could be in person, but then they -- it gets in their head even if they've been in it for years. it gets tough. >> listen, george w. bush's first debate against senator kerry was one of those moments. president obama, i just finished "double down" finally reading about what president obama went through in his first debate against mitt romney. even sitting presidents have moments like that. >> bush's kerry debate was absolutely horrific. >> unbelievable, yeah. >> it was one of the worst i've seen. >> one of those moments where he said, is my time up yet? can i stop talking? during one of those answers. >> no, no, no. that's not what you do. george bush before would talk

and ask for more time. they'd give him more time. he's stare at the camera and go, it's hard. >> i think that was the "saturday night live" skit. >> he did it. i was screaming. it is something, though. mika and i were talking about it yesterday. i have always been -- whether i was writing musicals or playing in bands or coaching football, all these weird things, i'd walk in and go, i can do this. i'd get on tv in front of the camera. for the first year i was just sweating. it gets into your head. i really -- i sympathize for michael bay. >> i saw yesterday -- >> everybody can deal with screwups. the rick perry thing to me was the most painful thing to watch at that moment. >> rick perry in the republican debate couldn't think of his own agency. >> by the way, rick perry, though, i talked to him at the republican governors association this year. i kicked him around. one on one, that guy, too. the most personable guy i've

seen. some people, you get them in front of the camera, get them on stage. >> once again, gaffes are one thing. to just bail like michael bay, obviously he couldn't ad lib. he didn't know what was on the script. when you show the audience your jugular -- if he said, hey, look. i just got off a plane. i haven't read this stuff. just kind of just basically insult your audience and just -- >> i think it was so bad that i don't think the audience was insulted. i actually feel nothing but sympathy for him. >> i disagree with that. >> i'm not sure i completely agree with that. >> to just walk off the stage? >> yeah. just throw up your hands and say i'm not doing this? >> i think it was, i can't do this. >> i can't. and if i'm saying to the audience, i want it to end. >> i'm going to throw up on you. i don't know. >> yeah. i didn't want the guy throwing up on me. if i'm in the front row. >> let's not shed tears of michael bay making $50 million. >> sarah palin, what, like -- this is what i haven't

understood about sarah palin. we're just doing free form this morning since mika's not here. people forget the convention speech. >> remarkable. >> was one of the greatest out of nowhere performances i have ever seen. >> it wasn't out of nowhere. that was the magic that led to her selection. >> did they get in her head between that and the katie couric interview? all the stuff that was going on. >> yeah. that's what i was talking about. she got in her head. that convention speech was a moment of really her natural political talents. i think the katie interview two weeks later, by then she was aware of some of her sort of vast areas -- >> there's a big difference. there's a big difference between you giving a speech and you're controlling the message versus a q & a. it's as simple as that. giving a speech, it's your words. it's your thoughts. >> i don't disagree. >> versus saying what books do

you read. >> but at the same time, giving a speech is an art form. barack obama has shown us that. >> funny you said that. barack obama, we all know what he's like as a speech. i sat next to him at a dinner before he ran. he was awkward in person. when you're out on a stage, you're speaking to no one. one on one, different scenario. different communication paradigms -- >> barack obama didn't have a great first debate in the 2012 campaign to say the least. >> it was terrible. let's do ckalisthenics now. >> when politicians prove they're human, there's an infinite capacity to forgive them. i don't think barack obama's first debate performance did anything but sharpen his focus for the next two. president bush's first debate performance against senator kerry had a pretty seismic impact on our polls. we were down 14 points. he came back stronger. no single -- i think sarah palin

might have survived the katie couric interview if it had been followed by more sound performances and interviews. >> let me say, though, i've got to say, though, that katie -- that sarah palin's defense, three words you don't hear me say, in sarah palin's -- four words you don't hear me say very often. by the end of the campaign she was kicking ass. she was having huge crowds. >> she always had huge crowds. >> she was delivering really good speeches while -- >> much better interviews. >> while joe bide b would have a couple dozen people in a crowd in pennsylvania. i think what she did after the campaign, i think, really, really may have caused some bigger problems. i guess the bigger point of this is, just like michael bay or just like george w. bush or sarah palin or whomever, people don't realize that politicians a lot of times, they're like relief pitchers. you get a relief pitcher that thinks they can throw a 97 mile an hour fast ball on the lower

outside corner in their sleep, they do it. but they give up a home run. they get crazy -- or a field goal kicker that can make 20 field goals in a row. then he misses three and he loses it. >> six seconds on the clock. >> politicians are just the same. george w. bush, i never could figure out why he could mow down, you know, ann richards the way he did and then, you know, cause me to pull my hair out so many times when i was cheering for him. i don't know. it's a weird thing. >> they're human. >> oh, that's it? that's it. they're human! >> and the public, you know, usually forgives the crime of being human. >> i mean, and i put myself on a really small scale. when i get out of congress people ask me to go give speeches, i just sweat. i had the nixon flop sweat. >> i still get nervous when -- talking at a -- at an event where there are people actually looking back at you, you guys don't count as people. when there are actual people

looking at you. >> more stunning actually, in this 24/7 twitter, camera world that we don't see more gaffes, believe it or not. it's actually amazing that you basically -- there's nothing a politician can ever speak and not be recorded at this point that there's not "f" bombs, whatever you have. it's almost quite stunning. >> when it has a really serious impact on the way campaigns are going to be waged. now they are no longer -- in 2004 and president obama i think sort of replicated this formula in 2008, if you could control and strat jazz the message an coordinate everything you really could stay ahead. now you could be thrown off for days, weeks, indefinitely by some private moment that you think no one is recording like mitt romney learned the hard way with his comment about the 47%. amazing. >> let's really quickly -- i want to ask you guys what you think about this. i've got mixed feelings. there's a book right now washington's really starting to talk about. a 600-page tell-all, book by former defense secretary robert

gates. it's extreme lly critical of th president. also extremely critical of vice president biden. also critical of former secretary of state hillary clinton. and i just don't know. i've got really mixed feelings. you want to know the history of it, you want to know his opinions. but i'm surprised. i just don't think -- i don't think you do -- i think you -- if you're going -- if you feel like you need to get policy differences out there, i think there are much better ways to do it than this. but i think robert gates was going to be on the show next week. we can talk to him next week. i hope so. i have extraordinary respect for him. but that's one of the reasons why i'm so surprised that he did this. let's set this up. here's andrea mitchell. she has the story. >> reporter: when bob gates left the obama cabinet, the president surprised his defense secretary with the medal of freedom. the nation's highest civilian honor. >> you're not only one of the

longest serving secretaries of defense in american history, but it is also clear that you've been one of the best. >> i'm deeply honored and moved. >> reporter: in his sensational new memoir gates excoriates the president. vice president joe biden. and former national security adviser tom don lin for their handling of the war in afghanistan and the military. gates says suspicion and distrust of senior military officers by senior white house officials, including the president and vice president, became a big problem for me. after a march 2010 national security council meeting, gates writes, i thought the president doesn't trust his commander, can't stand karzai, doesn't believe in his own strategy and doesn't consider the war to be his. for him it's all about getting out. this, although gates had told matt lauer about the war -- >> i think we're all on the same page. >> in his book gates accuses biden of poisoning the well against the military leadership and sites donnelin and his

national security team for, quote, aggressive, suspicion and sometimes condescending and insulting questioning of our military leaders. while praising hillary clinton, gates expresses dismay at hearing clinton tell the president she only opposed the iraq war because she was running against him in the iowa caucuses. gates writes the president in turn conceded his opposition to the iraq surge was political. still despite his unusually harsh criticism of obama, gates calls the president's approval of the raid against osama bin laden one of the most courageous decisions i had ever witnessed in the white house. but the gates book is arming critics of obama's iraq strategy as well. >> 90-some young americans died in fallujah. 600 were wounded. now we see people driving around with black al qaeda flags. that's so sad. what do we tell their families? >> vice president biden, gates calls him a man of integrity but adds, quote, i think he's been nearly wrong on every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past

four decades. gates also writes the controlling nature of the obama white house and its determination to take credit for every good thing that happened while giving none of the career folks in the trenches who actually had done the work offended secretary clinton as much as it offended me. the former defense secretary is going to be on "morning joe" a week from today. listen, i agree with a lot of his criticisms. i really do. talking about, you know, these little white house kids. you know, that are way down the food chain. calling, you know, commanding generals and -- >> shocking that they were even sort of permitted to have contact. that never would have happened. >> it's stunning on so many levels. he reveals a lot of things. then again, i just -- i've got mixed feelings about this. we want to know the history of it. but you actually say, you've talked to some of -- some of the people involved in this book. they say all of this -- sort of this first blush is a mischaracterization. that he's actually just as complimentary of president

obama, but people in the press don't want to actually -- >> that's what we were talking about. the twitter impact of a book like this, 600-page book. >> they'll find the negative stuff. >> he calls president obama's decision to pursue the raid that captured and killed bin laden the most courageous decision he'd ever seen out of the white house. and he talks about how his own emotions and attachment and affection for the troops started to cloud his judgment at the end. and that he was more comfortable with the bombing raid. he does give president obama credit. but what he talks about, you no e, we have to remember, he started as president bush's secretary of defense. and so he -- he did see these -- he is the defense secretary that spent the most time on the wars in iraq and afghanistan. he talks about the difference between a president who believes in the wars, was willing to spend every last scrap of credibility and admittedly bush at the end of his presidency didn't have as much as he would have liked defending these wars. and a president who even though he crafted the policy, the surge

in afghanistan, even though these were his policies he was never comfortable with them. he was never in support of doing the things that needed to be done. and he was never comfortable with the uniformed military. which is a pretty devastating -- >> just so i can -- so we can lay this out. he specifically said president obama let him down. he didn't see the afghanistan war as his. he didn't own it. but actually when he tripled the number of troops he did own it. it was his war. >> you're the commander in chief. they're all your wars. >> he also didn't trust david petraeus, a guy he had appointed to run it. he didn't trust hamid karzai. of course, i agree with him on all of those things which is why i opposed tripling the number of troops in afghanistan in 2009. if he felt the same way, he shouldn't have tripled the number of troops. >> issues aside, i -- i think there's a level of responsibility when you are secretary of defense and you're serving in an administration to not do a tell-all.

unless there's some -- unless we as -- >> they would say it's not a tell-all. >> i'm sure they left a whole lot of stuff out. coming up on "morning joe," widespread disability scandal in new york city. over 100 police and firefighters are charged with faking illness. something barnicle and i do every time we get a chance. first, here's bill karins. he's got a check on the forecast. bill? >> how true is that? good morning, everyone. this arctic outbreak is on its way out. not fast enough for some residents, especially around buffalo. see that little white snow band coming off lake erie. blizzard warnings have been dropped. maybe an additional four inches on top of the foot you have. intense snow band over lake erie continues. that's the buffalo scene here. one spot near lake ontario, oswego, new york. very famous for getting tons of lake-effect snow. that's where we find on the lake shore nbc's katy tur. we talk about this big warmup that's about to happen. not too soon for you, i bet. >> reporter: no. not soon enough. although i got to tell you, bill, it's a lot warmer here now

than it was yesterday. it's 12 degrees. negative 7 windchill. 20 mile an hour winds or so. that is a lot better than it was yesterday. look where i'm standing. i'm right on top of lake ontario. you can see this sea wall, i guess lake wall if you will. the icy waves crashing over it. over here you can also see how completely frozen over it is. it is not warm here. in fact, it's not so bad here right now. where it is bad is just about 50 or so mimles to the north in adams and water town. they're feeling the heavy lake-effect snow. it's been snowing two inches an hour there since yesterday and it's still going. they're getting pounded as we speak. we tried to get there yesterday. unfortunately, we could not. the roads were just impassable. complete white out. zero visibility. i also want to show you another piece of video. hopefully you guys can roll this. this is salmon river falls which is also just a little bit to the northeast of us. it's completely frozen over. just a trickle of water. that shows you just how cold it

has been up here the past few weeks that a water fall can just completely freeze. as for now, back here live, a little wind. >> we were just talking here. we also showed the fountain in tupelo, mississippi, at the capitol there. that was frozen over, too. you're not the only one. let's leave it at that. >> reporter: no, no, no, no, no. >> oswego is a fun place. >> reporter: one of many. >> have fun there in oswego, katy. come back soon. even airs like oswego will warm up. the big warmup will take place over the next two to three days. the temperature change map already 17 degrees warmer in pittsburgh. 18 in areas right around dallas. you can notice the only really, really cold stuff left is up there fargo, minneapolis, wisconsin and upstate new york and new england. everyone else is starting to at least head in the right direction. that thaw comes thursday through saturday. even for our friends in the northern half of the country. a lot of people are asking, well, what's next? there's nothing right behind this. there's no snowstorms, no big

arctic outbreaks. we're pretty warm even in d.c. from sunday through monday. if we're going to get another arctic outbreak it's about 10 to 12 days away. hopefully it will change by then. again, that's about the 18th to the 20th of this month. that's a good little break from winter here over the next week and a half. buffalo, new york. time to shovel is near. the snow is ending and the winds are dying off. temperatures warmer by the weekend. you're watching "morning joe." is this the bacon and cheese diet? this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups.

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it's time to take a look at the morning papers. "l.a. times" from a parade of

papers, tragic news to report from overseas. four americans are dead after a u.s. air force helicopter crashed during a training mission. the accident happened off the coast of eastern england. officials believe the victims were four u.s. airmen onboard. the helicopter was a modified version of a black hawk that's frequently used for search and rescue missions. >> "new york times." authorities in new york say they've broken up a disability scam. of cours cost the taxpayers nearly $400 million. 106 people are facing charges including 80 retired new york city police officers and firefighters. accused of claiming they suffered post-traumatic stress from 9/11 even though they were nowhere near ground zero. "usa today," crisis response teams assisting the u.s. ski and snowboarding teams with a precautionary evaluation plan for the olympic games in russia. security concerns running the games intensified after two suicide bombings in russia last week. the olympic games kick off

february 6th. boy, big news yesterday. lindsay vonn. >> oh, my god. >> not going to be there. that's just -- takes a big star off. >> "seattle times," new report shows the number of smokers worldwide has never been higher. especially in china and indonesia. between 1980 and 2012. the number of daily smokers increased by nearly 280 million. good news for us, cigarette smoking dramatically declined in the u.s. over the last 50 years. incredible. anti-tobacco has saved as many as 8 million american lives. another fact with that? >> i hear smoking makes you skinny. >> interesting enough -- >> i'm joking. >> it has increased the average age in this country of death by two years. >> that's great. >> good news, man. everybody still smoking today -- can you imagine? >> seriously, if you're going to start smoking today, like what -- i don't know what's wrong with you. >> if you live in new york, where would you even smoke? it's illegal everywhere.

>> mayor bloomberg. >> do you really think -- i'm just curious. if mayor bloomberg had had another term here, another four years, do you think he would have actually been able to make sex illegal within the city limits? >> he's a great believer in sex, actually. >> physical fitness, calorie burning. >> not smoking, not eating transfats, not drinking too much diet soda. that's what you should do. >> can i just say, though, man, okay, you know what? i certainly have a lot more respect for him. >> where is he on legalizing pot? >> i don't know where he is on legalizing it. >> but he loves smoking it. >> yeah. during his first campaign, he acknowledged that he smoked it. he said -- people said did you inhale? he said, of course i did. did you like it? of course i did. that's the whole point. and it didn't make him stupid. you know that? it didn't make him stupid. >> kind of depends. i mean, you smoke it a lot, it makes you dumb. >> everything in moderation. >> everything in moderation. by the way, go to politico if you want to be pissed off at me. got a new column out about pot

making. stoners were so angry over the past three or four days. i grew up around stoners. >> i think that comment made it seem like you had smoked a lot of pot if you made a comment like that. >> read politico. i didn't. >> where is it? where is your politico? i didn't see it. >> i wrote, you know, i wrote about it. just said. because a lot of people said, oh -- i played in bands from the time i was 13. i think i probably was around more pot and more illegal drugs of which i never partook in -- >> nothing? >> nothing. because i saw what it made other people do. >> yeah. >> and they were so stupid. it's in moderation. do you know how many friends i have -- by the way, i'm not kerry nation here. i'm just saying in general, kerry nation, for those of you that are stoned and don't read

history, most of my heroes smoked pot. paul mccartney. >> barack obama. >> well. he's probably smoking pot right now. that's cool. that's fine. >> i feel like too many people hate me. i don't want to get the pot people mad, too. >> have you ever tried pot? >> i went to berkeley. listen, i have a little kid. i don't want it to be easier. i would rather it be harder than easier for my kid to smoke pot. >> i actually agree. >> i don't think it makes you smarter. i don't think it makes you better. should it be illegal? i don't know. i don't think we're at the point where we're recommending this for anybody at a formative age. >> i don't think -- you know, the drug war against pot is insanity. and -- and, you know, kids in, you know, kids in scarsdale, white kids in scarsdale, moms, i

just picked out scarsdale. okay? i don't know that your son is in his room right now smoking the evil weed. okay? i'm just saying in scarsdale, white kids can do it and, you know, if they're doing it -- if black kids are doing it in the south bronx, obviously the justice system does not administer the laws fairly. so no. i've got a lot of problems with it. i'm just saying just a complete legalization of it, i don't think -- >> as a parent, doesn't that terrify you? i don't want my kid to have more substances to navigate. >> i've seen more people harmed in life by alcohol and prescription drugs, of course. i also am very glad that the -- the level of alcohol keeps going down. it used to be 1.2. it's.8. it could be .6 for all i'm concerned. >> you don't exactly drive well sober. >> i don't drive well sober. >> would you rather have your

kid smoke pot saturday nights or take up cigarette smoking? >> neither. >> it depends. >> that's a no-brainer. >> do i have to choose? >> yes. i'm giving you a choice. >> can't he go to movies or something? >> that aside. that's a very interesting question. >> i'm saying we have a substance that we know kills people which are cigarettes which are legal as long as you're over t21 and all this stuff. pot is still criminal. >> it's really picking your poison. if my son is smoking cigarettes and he's smoking a pack or two a day, then i know over time that's going to kill him. if my son is sitting in, you know, the room listening to, you know, "do you feel like we do?" and smoking a lot of pot day after day after day. >> that's not what he's saying. >> obviously a joint on a saturday night, i know a lot of really, really highly functioning successful rich people that still do that. i'm just talking, though, again, you know -- >> kids.

>> if i can make that -- if i can make that choice, you know -- >> one saturday night? >> if we're talking one saturday night -- >> rather him have one cigarette than smoke pot. >> that is -- i think a typical recreational pot user out in colorado or some place, that's what they're doing. >> how do you know? >> i don't know. but i'm just trying to compare sort of what would be a typical usage pattern of one versus the other. coming up next, we've got the creator of "law & order" series and the new nbc drama "chicago p.d.." legendary producer dick wolf will be here with an exciting new novel. more "morning joe" when we return. so ally bank has a raise your rate cd

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i got to ask you something. >> i got big plans for you. >> you saved my life. >> you don't need him. come on. >> you're out there on those streets to protect and serve. >> i will help you to the other side. that is a promise. >> you don't want to clip your badge at night knowing you did right. >> you did the right thing. it gets easier. >> that's a new nbc drama "chicago p.d.." joins us now onset, the show's

executive producer, relatively unknown when it comes to tv series. >> this is his first shot. i hope it works out for him. >> dick wolf. we hope this works out for you. >> i'm really optimistic but fearful. what can i say? >> before we get to this, is it true that you have more hours on network television than any other producer in the history of television? >> i have no idea. >> i read that somewhere. >> really? that's a good one. can i claim that now? >> you should use that one on dates. absolutely. >> "law & order" alone. how long has that been on the air. >> that's no longer oen the air. we went 20 years. it's about 448 episodes or something. >> wow. >> not much in residual payments. >> they're really pre-writers guild. >> speaking of pre-writers build, "the execution." your latest book about drug cartels. the theme of it about drug cartels. i've always wondered given the growth of drug cartels in this country spawning from mexico, perhaps. it seems to me that you could

have a graduate of harvard business school running a drug cartel it's so complex. >> it's not far off. the successful ones. i mean, they -- it sort of moved from colombia in the '90s and early part of the ots to mexico now is really the ones -- the mexican mobs are the ones that are really controlling the bulk of the trafficking. >> it's amazing, the number of deaths that occur off of the drug trade in mexico that go uncovered in the american media. >> well, because it's so common that it's -- it really is an epidemic. i mean, some of the border cities you wouldn't want to walk through anymore. >> what's the storyline of the book? >> the story line of the book is another jeremy fisk story who works for the new york pd intelligence division, which is a very small unit inside the police department that is really

in the business -- their only good days are the days when absolutely nothing happens. and this starts off sort of with a nod to the previous book. and the protag -- or the antagonist in that who has been sentenced to prison who becomes a cog in fisk's life because there's no -- there was not real closure on the case in the previous book. but it starts with a series of beheadings in mexico. there is a mexican drug cop named garza, very, very attractive woman who ends up being in the united states because the president of mexico is coming here. and there is fear of a major assassination attempt in the city. and it's their job to stop it. and it turns out that politics always makes strange bedfellows, but the drug dealer that they think is the guy that is their target turns out to have come

here to kill another ex-dealer. >> we want people to read. we don't want you to go page by page. >> this is just the sort of broad -- >> i want to quickly get to tv. you got a big new show tonight. "chicago p.d.." this is obviously not the first police show that anybody's done. this is obviously not the first show in chicago. you seem to have a touch, a feel, a knack, i don't want to say a formula, that works. what is the secret sauce that this -- i saw a promo for it. i happen to love the lead actor. okay. this is not new. but yet it is always new when you do it. >> i would say to not put too fine of point on it. some people would look at it and go, wow, kind of retro television. unfortunately, i grew up and spent my adulthood in retro television. and i still think there is an appetite for it. but if you look across the spectrum, there aren't really many cop shows left that are classic cop shows.

>> that's interesting. >> you always include a strong woman. not just as a supporting character, but almost always as a co-lead. everything you do. your books, your tv shows. why do you think that so many people miss that part of the magic sauce? you bring men and women to everything you write because of that, i think. >> look, the secret of television, i've done this for years. number one, two and three is the writing. immediately following that is a great cast. and i learned that lesson on "law & order." that it was all guys the first three years. and there weren't very many women watching. because women like watching empowered women. and since in many instances they really do control the remote, you ignore a strong female character at your own risk. and obviously the poster girl for this has been mariska. who i think is the hardest wo

working actress in television. 15 years as the lead of a show is -- >> i'm predicting this is going to be a big one. i can smell it. >> i sure hope so. >> shot in chicago. a lot of it? >> every foot. >> that's great. >> it's a hometown show. >> great city. >> it's fabulous. i was obviously in new york exclusively for almost 30 years. the mayor has rolled out more than the red carpet. it's been unbelievable cooperation. >> "chicago p.d." premieres tonight. give the guy a break, would you? 10:00. nbc. right after "law & order: svu." his book "the execution" is out now. get an excerpt on our website. mojo.msnbc.com. dick wolf, thank you very much. >> penn graduate. >> unlike you. >> and my son is a junior. >> love it. up next, the director of the consumer financial protection bureau, richard cadray.

"morning joe" is going to be right back. [ male announcer ] this is joe woods' first day of work.

and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him,

and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. they will no longer be able to make loans that will blow up and feed those dangerous loans into the financial system. because of the consumer agency rules, families will be safer. pension funds and other investors will be safer. our whole economy will be safer. not completely safe. but with a new cop on the beat, it will be safer. >> that was democratic senator elizabeth warren on the senate floor praising new mortgage rums

that are going into effect this friday. with us now is the director of the consumer financial protection bureau richard cordray. thank you for being with us, director. you guys are trying to get away from the meltdown that happened before by a back to basics approach. strip it down for us. what's going to be different now with mortgages? >> that's exactly what we're doing. it is back to basics. it's nothing new. it's what community banks and credit unions that are good lenders have been doing for years. when they make a loan, they have to pay attend to the borrower's ability to repay. make sure it's an affordable loan. when they are surfacing a loan, no surprises. no runarounds. if the interest rate is going to change, they need to give people advance notice so you can think about how to handle that change. if you're -- >> stay away from, like, the debt trap that so many people got into. >> well, what happened was in the runup to the crisis often they weren't even bothering to check out the numbers for you. no documentation loans. they didn't care what your income was. they could sell it on the secondary market. we got away from responsibility. >> a lot of political pressure coming from capitol hill to do

that as well. >> may have been. >> may have been. >> what can be done? what is being done, is a better way to phrase it, i think, to prevent the re-emergence of the principal instigators of exactly what you were talking about, countrywides, store front mortgage lending units. what can be done to prevent them from re-emerging in a future market? >> first of all, our rules will make a lot of the loans that were made in the runup to the crisis illegal. making a no documentation loan is no longer legal in this country as of friday. in some of the exotic terms where they tried to underwrite the loan to you pretending like the teaser rate that was only going to last six months was going to be the life of the loan, that's now going to be illegal. we want consumers to understand prices and risks. know them up front. be able to make good choices. consumers bear responsibility for their decisions but there was an awful lot of reckless, irresponsible lending in the runup to the crisis. if we stop that from happening in the future we should never have a meltdown like that again. >> we've seen the fines on jp

morgan. two questions. has there been enough accountability and punishment on the banking side? >> i think accountability is what's important. i think we're getting there. i think it's a process. it's an unfolding process. that's something we're trying to bring from the consumer financial protection bureau as well. people have to understand that they have to comply with the law. when they don't comply, there's consequences. that's our job. >> going back -- i want to touch on credit. because you talk about, you know, really delineating what these loans are about. we've talked about a lot on this show how they are a lot of people out there who have good jobs and decent income who can't get the loans. on the other side of the ledger, what are you going to do to open things up a little bit without going over the deep end? >> that's something we heard a lot about as we were writing these rules p p that the mortgage market in 2013/14 is very different from the mortgage market in 2006-2007. tight credit right now is a concern. we wrote these rules to allow a lot of loans to be made in the current market without constraining credit. but they have to do some basic things. they have to make sure that they

document the loan. that you have the ability to repay the loan. again, basic lending. but it wasn't happening a decade ago. >> on another element of consumer spending, can anything be done with the utilities? with the cell phone companies? to get them to notify a customer that your contract has expired? and you are now free to go to another company without paying a penalty? or in the case of a lot of people, paying the phone bill that keeps coming that they ought not to have paid because the contract is expired? >> i think the kintd of principles we're putting in place in the financial sector for consumer protection are applicable a i cross the board. they would apply to things like utility payments. they would apply to other kinds of expenlss we have in our life. what we're trying to do here, we finalized a rule in november, know before you owe. make the prices and risk clear to the consumer up front. put them in a position to understand what their choices are. they can then make the best choices themselves. nobody's going to make them for them. but they need to have things be

clear, comparable so that they can actually make good choices p p that didn't happen in the mortgage market a decade ago. >> all right. thanks so much. >> pleasure. >> appreciate you being with us. we're going to be right back with more "morning joe" in just a minute. let me get this straight... [ female voice ] yes? lactaid® is 100% real milk? right. real milk. but it won't cause me discomfort. exactly, because it's milk without the lactose. and it tastes? it's real milk! come on, would i lie about this? [ female announcer ] lactaid. 100% real milk. no discomfort.

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boy, i'll tell you what. we've learned a lot today. a lot. >> only one thing -- >> about drug use.

on "morning joe." >> there's a steve rattner anecdote. >> that is uncool, man. coming up next, what have we learned today. you are so uncool. the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall off roble avenue. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪

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you're a narc. what did you learn, mike? >> i learned, today, actually at 2:00 the hall of fame vote is going to be announced. jack mars deserves to be in the hall of fame. donny? >> i learned that pot makes people dumb. >> exactly. good. >> learned that. explains my -- i forgot what i was going to say. >> very hungry? >> speaking of that, a fair amount of people probably would smoke and want a little melted velveeta for a treat. you'll have a tough time getting your hands on it. super bowl dip might not have it. >> what's wrong? >> they ate that at berkeley, i think. >> they can put a man on the moon and we're running out of velveeta? >> i learned, mike barnicle, that you believe that the roid freaks should be in the hall of

fame. >> put them in. >> disagree. >> just have a separate wing. declare the era. explain the steroid era. put them in. >> very good. >> performance enhancing. >> very excited. >> do you know who chuck todd's got on today? supremes reunited. >> with diana ross. >> all coming up. >> all there. straight ahead on "the daily rundown." it's unbelievable. gates swung wide open. former pentagon boss's book roughs up vice president biden. but it's a cutting critique of secretary clinton that could potentially spark a challenge from the left for 2016. we'll tell you about that. also this morning, as top senators try to separate the wheat from the chaff on the farm bill, the white house is hoping for a deal. we'll talk to agriculture