there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. chris christie has offered self-defense but the answers and documents keep coming. the there are two big pieces of the chris christie bridge scandal, how he is defending himself against scrutiny. i believe have not been examined close closely yet. we also have this morning some new reporting on the story that we're going to be bringing to you later on in the next hour and the question of what it will mean for his presidential ambitions, plus, for a change much of pace, if you've wondered what it looks like when four sitting u.s. senators, a governor, a congressman, candidates for all of those

offices and a the lot of other people all gather in an elementary school gym for a night of glad handing and raccoon eating, yes, raccoon, we have an exclusive and very fun report from last night's big raccoon tyner in the state of arkansas. i'm not making that up. it is a huge, quirky tradition in that state and this year it's more important than ever. control of the u.s. senate could be decided in arkansas. our friend perry bacon is standing by on the scene for us in arkansas this morning. we will get to that later, but first i want to play for you the one moment that chris christie's press conference that jumped out at me more than any other. >> when you're a leader of an organization, and i've had this happen to me before where i've had folks not tell me the truth about something -- not since i've been governor, but leaders. >> his explanation for why he

never exhibited the slightest bit of curiosity for weeks and months as the bridge story was questioning, as the doubts mounted, the reason he said he never gave any of this much thought is because his staff is always honest with him. it never owe can kuccurred to h someone on his gub na ternatori team might mislead him, might lie to him. everyone is asking why christie didn't suspect anything until this past weak and that's his answer, that's his explanation. that's why he kept talking about how sad he was because he'd experienced for the first time in his gubernatorial career the bitter, the shocking feeling of being lied to by his own people. and here is why that line jumped out at me because i remember another christie press conference three and a half years ago when he was also stunned and also furious that one of his top gubernatorial appointees had lied to hip.

well, had supposedly lied to him. this is brett schundler. there was a time he was a rising star in new jersey republican politics and in national republican politics. he was a free market loving jack kemp-style conservative. he was a well-meaning guy. no matter what you made of his politics, he cared deeply about connecting conservatism with the poor, with minorities, with voters who have long shunned the republican party. he made some money on wall street and then in 1992 at the age of 33 he got himself elected mayor of jersey city. a greaty town where only 6% were republicans. it was a totally unlikely, totally improbable victory by a conservative republican in a very nonconservative, nonrepubl nonrepublican city. schundler was on the rise. he got re-elected in 1997. there was a column saying he

would be president of the united states by 2008. he made his big move in 2001. he ran for governor. he was an odd duck in the state republican party who put up their own candidate to oppose him and he won anyway. he was one step away from the governorship and from there that shot at the white house. it was all lining up for bret schundler and then, well, it didn't work out. he lost to a democrat named jim mcgreevey. you probably know his name. probably know his story. and schundler tried again in 2005. this time he didn't even make it out of the republican primary. he had been the great conservative hope that big career making breakthrough he needed was elusive. by the time 2009 rolled around, he'd been eclipsed. chris christie by that point was the next big thing in new jersey republ republican politics. he made his name prosecuting crooked politicians and in 2009 the gop made him its candidate for governor and he won that fall which meant that as the new governor he had jobs to give

out. he had important jobs to give out, jobs in his cabinet, jobs like state education commissioner. that job, christie announced to some surprise, would go to brett schundler. so brett schundler was back. education reform and charter schools had been a passion of his and now here he was, the point man in a new republican administration ready to put his policy ideas to work. it wasn't the white house but it put him back in the game. if it went well for him, well, who knows, maybe it would have been stepping stone to one more campaign, one more chance at redemption, one more shot at the big time. except, well, then this happened. the obama administration launched what is called the race to the top. it's a competition amongst states for big federal education bucks. schundler's team put its pitch together for are that money, more than 1,000 pages of documents. they got a date, a time to meet with the feds. $400 million was on the table. and then they lost out, barely, though. they lost out by 4.8 points

accord i according to the obama administration scoring system. the reason for that -- they submitted budget information for the years 2010 and 2011, but they were supposed to submit it for 2008 and 2009. this was very embarrassing for the christie administration. $400 million worth of federal money left on the table because of a bungled application. so the governor, well, he lashed out. who did he lash out at? at the obama administration. >> when the president comes back to new jersey, he's going to have to explain to the people of the state of new jersey why he's depriving them of $400 million that this application earned them. >> christie said schundler and his team were blameless, that they had tried to give the correct information to the obama people during the meeting, but they hadn't been allowed to because the obama people were petty bureaucrats. then a videotape came out and that contradicted the story. it was a videotape of the presentation that showed

schundler had been completely blind sided and totally unprepared for those requests. >> we were unable to find in the application the funding levels of school education funding levels for the years 2008 and 2009 as requested in the application. can you explain how or where this information was presented in your application? >> no, i cannot. i don't -- >> and we can come back to that. that would be fine. >> that would be helpful. >> and so now chris christie looked like a fool. he guaranteed his team had done nothing wrong, that it was all the obama administration's fault, but now here was glaring evidence that contradicted him. what did he do? he said schundler had misled him about what had happened at the meeting. that he had lied to to him and then he went public and he fired him. >> it is, i think pretty clear

at this point, that the truth wasn't told. told a lie to the governor. >> that's what chris christie said at that press conference. the number one rule in the administration is you don't lie to the governor. now here is why i'm telling you this story. because when i listened to chris christie this week go on and on, and on and on, about how floored he was that someone would lie to him, completely unaware he'd been of what was going on down at the george washington bridge, when i listened to all of that i thought of what happened next in the story of bret schundler because, remember what i said, whatever you think of his politics, bret schundler is an honest man and a proud man, and he didn't like being called a liar. and, also, he had e-mails. so he wait add few days. he put them all together and then he went public with proof that he had been totally up front with the governor's office all along about what had gone wrong with the race for the top. what had gone wrong at that hearing. how he bungled it.

why new jersey had lost that money and he provided his own seven-page personal statement recounting his phone conversations and personal interactions with christie and with christie's team. chris christie called bret schundler a liar even though there were documents out there, lots of documents out there, that proved schundler had not been lying to chris christie. bret schundler went public and proved that chris christie was full of it. the stakes were lower back then. that was a much smaller story. it passed quickly. it's been forgotten by many. as we consider where the bridge story goes from here, when we think of how emphatically christie is insisting he's been lied to and that no one ever told him anything about this bridge matter, just remember this, this is a dance he has danced before. i want to bring in to talk about all of this heather hadden, a new jersey reporter with "the wall street journal," governor christie's running mate in the state legislature during the 1990s and later opposed him in

the primary for governor in 2009 and said this week that he sees shades of richard nixon in the bridge scandal. also at the table new jersey state senator, a democrat who believes the u.s. attorney's office should be looking into all of this. we'll ask him about that. and a national perspective from a staff writer at the "daily beast." thank you all for joining us. heather, i'll start with you just reporting on this. a the lot of the commentary i heard this week in the wake of that press conference that chris christie gave was this is a guy who would never have made the emphatic statements he made if he wasn't sure that there's nothing out there that could link him to this. the story i just recounted makes me wonder if that's necessarily the case. i know you've been covering him. what do you make of that? >> well, it's been interesting as we've seen in these documents released that the initial batch on wednesday and we got further ones on friday and it does seem

there's more and more layers of the administration that seem to know about this. so the question is how long can you be insulated from this? what weigh don't know from the toumts is, you know, particularly the one you talked with about yesterday. did she talk about this with him? >> that is his incoming chief of staff. >> one of ten senior staff members. they had regular contact with the port authority. she was forwarded an e-mail where they expressed to the port authority staff member from new york he was so concerned about the bridge closure, said there were state and federal laws that were violated here. she was forwarded that e-mail from bill baroney. what does she do with that? we don't know that. there are still a lot of questions to be answered now, the most inner circle of his staff were aware of this. >> and that jumped out at me

because i had been saying all week that i had thought there was sort of a gray area, and there still may be a gray area of it's not that he hatched the scheme and knew all about it from the beginning, that he was completely duped, that he was willfully ignorant. when i see that an e-mail marked priority high from pat saying the new jersey guys may be breaking state and federal law is forwarded to regina, someone that close to the governor, back on september 13, this had to have come up with these specific concerns at a very early level. >> for sure. and the liar in chief is chris christie and the obstruction of justice is what is going to be his biggest problem. i don't believe he was involved in the lane closures itself, but those lane closures violate federal law. then he circled the wagons, had

a phony story about a traffic study no one could believe. low an lo and behold the morning we found out it was a phony story he found out. what he found out was that we found out. >> and you had been calling for a federal investigation, the u.s. attorney for new jersey announced last week they are preliminarily starting to look into this to see if there's a case. my thought when i saw the news was, wow, if chris christie was still the u.s. attorney for new jersey, a democratic governor in a situation like this, we all know chris christie would be -- subpoenas would be flying by this point. what is your read? what is your read on that situation? do you expect him to pursue this with any kind of the same aggression christie would have? >> no. he is much more cautious. much more reasonable and, quite frankly, more responsible public official. i will pursue it but it will take time. in the meantime, the assembly

investigation will continue. his subpoena power will be reauthorized and that's when we'll see more and more evidence come up that chris christie is just not telling the truth. >> that's a big part of this, too, we had wisniewski on the show saying he was still in doubt whether that subpoena power would be renewed. i guess it's the power of up, the incoming speaker said maybe something else. he said a few hours later that power will be renewed. jamelle, what strikes me how many tracks are sort of in motion right now to get more information. we're talking about the state assembly committee, the u.s. attorney in washington. we're talking about jay ro rockefeller and the commerce committee having interest in this. there are so many different fronts where more information can come out. >> right. and with so many different new information coming out, when i saw that press conference, i was willing to give chris christie

the benefit of the doubt. after thinking about it a little more and seeing that even within the press conference there were a bunch of contradictory things he's claiming, that he could have never imagined anyone not telling him anything, something will come out. i think, you know, i don't think he ordered it from above but i think he had something he knew this was going to happen. when had this comes out do any of these investigations, he's done. he was so emphatic about not knowing anything that any bit of information that he had any inkling about what's going on i think finishes him. >> and so, you have quite a history with chris christie. just to start with, your comment in the press this week was to make the comparison to richard nic nixon and sort of what jamelle is say iing ties into it. when it came out how much knowledge richard nixon actually had of what was a relatively seemingly petty crime. that was the undoing and, of

course, it unearthed all sorts of other things but talk about that comparison you made this week. >> well, it's a bit uncanny actually. first, it's important to understand this scandal is only in the first quarter. so we really don't know what's going to come out. if you went back to, for purposes of comparison, watergate and you looked at the first quarter of that scandal, what did the white house say? we didn't have anything to do with this. we don't know anything about this. this went on completely outside and then, of course, they were forced to retreat, retreat, retreat. what i saw as a sim is late is looking back to richard nicxon' time he was riding high in the polls for re-election as a popular incumbent republican. he didn't need to do anything untoward and yet he couldn't help himself. it was the thin skinned vindictive anywnature that propd this whole thing and it did him in. when i look at the current situation i see, again, a very popular republican incumbent

running for re-election far, far ahead of his democratic opponent in the polls. personal his administration didn't need to do anything at all to secure his win, and yet we have this, what i would call juvenile behavior, perhaps illegal activity. it's not major comparison. the comparison draws itself. >> you use the term vindictive. you talked about that in the press this week saying that you sort of saw something like this coming. i want to talk to you more specifically about your history with chris christie, what you've observed both close up, running with him in his early days in morris county and what you've observed. we've heard all sorts of stories how christie and his administration meddled in a way other governors haven't. some specifics that maybe you can talk to that. we'll pick it up right after this.

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apologize to the people of ft. lee? >> of course. i did that here this afternoon and i'm here to apologize to the people of ft. lee and we did a terrible thing. we're going to work to regain their trust. >> our craig melvin asked him about it just hours after that press conference. and, rick, i want to pick it back up with you because i want to see if you can sort of flesh out some of these characterizations of christie we've seen this week about the vindictive nature, the nature of his office. your story is back in the 1990s chris christie was this up-and-coming politician in morris county, on the county board of free holders there. it ended in disaster. he ran for the assembly in 1985. he ran on a ticket. you were a line back then. clearly you are no longer a line.

what can you tell us about the chris christie you knew back then? has he changed? what is his style as a leader and politician? >> i think over a period of 20 years chris christie's character has basically remained pretty much the same. he was always very ambitious, could be belligerent and i think that's kind of shown itself. he's not forgiving. he once said to me, you know, we don't get mad. we get even. and i think that's kind of -- he's grown up in a culture of brass knuckles pog particulars. and as he, himself, has quote that had famous saying. >> and within the republican party in new jersey, too, can you speak to obviously it's always been a unified front since chris christie became the governor, this is chris christie's party. he has a lot of control over the party but what is the attitude of republicans as you talk to republicans right now in the state? how are they processing all of this? is he in danger of losing

republica republicans? if he had you for the last few years. >> well, i think from what i've seen and talked to various people in trenton, i think there's a real reticence to discuss anything concerning the governor. you could call it fear. you could call it intimidation, but the fact is there is a concern that if they do talk about anything in any way that could even be construed as possibly being negative, that there could be political repercussions. most of them being smart people, recognizing that the governor is incredibly powerful public official in new jersey have been reluctant to go public. >> as a reporter what have been your observations as to how the administration conducts itself? >> one thing i would like to add so far state republicans have been pretty quiet on this. but during the hearing of david wildstein where he took the fifth there were procedural measures before he actually did that to vote. the committee had to vote whether they thought their

subpoena power included the bridge, not just port authority finances. all the republicans voted for it. i thought that was very interesti interesting. they could have said -- they've said before this is political, we don't like this partisanship that has been shown through this investigation, but they voted to continue. >> yes, it was unified, not a party line. i want to put up a really interesting quote from "the washington post." i think it was yesterday or the day before. but former governor tomorrow cain, one of the most respected in new jersey, his reputation is as chris christie's political godfather. on the one hand i think he has a lot to offer. i think he's the mobile able politician since bill clinton. on the other hand you look at the qualities and ask do you really want that in your president? and senator lesniak, you snow senator cain. you speak about the christie/cain relationship and someone like governor kaine

saying this in public. for governor kaine to be agreeing with me that the national political ambitions are over is remarkable. but also very insightful. he realizes that it's over and at some point in time christie will have to realize it is as well. >> but the other story with kaine, and i think this is something to appreciate about the peculiartist, right after the election chris christie sort of high off the 60% re-election and one of his first actions was to move against the republican leader of the state senate to try to oust the republican leader of the state senate, tom kaine jr. >> working with a democrat. >> that's the thing i want you to explain to people. what tom kaine jr.'s crime was in his eyes, there was this pro-chris christie wing who have been protecting him.

>> he said i will do whatever it takes to win and he's told national republicans whatever it takes to win sometimes means throwing republicans overboard and shaking hands with president obama. when it was important. this is a very machiavellian governor who will do whatever it takes to win and that message went through to his staff. they obviously carried it way too far. >> jamelle, that's the thing i've talked a little bit on the show. when people look at this nationally, they tend to look at it as republican/democrat issue but the fact that chris christie has peeled off in a machiavellian way so many democrats in new jersey, i guess one of the lists for him, too, that bipartisan image that a rets is at risk now nationally. >> right. if it is the case that he was working to punish a democrat the, then certainly to bring in voters whose hazy view is bipartisan guy, that image

suffers. i think christie's biggest danger is his national political ambitions. if i'm a republican dounor or activist or some sort of elite and i'm trying to evaluate candidates ahead of the actual voting primary and looking at chris christie and walker and rubio, guys who have maybe not a similar profile but could strike a similar profile in a national electorate, i see this bridge scandal with christie and i'm wondering can i trust that he won't implode if he's the nominee? can i trust if he's president he won't implode in the white house? and maybe give a second is look to guys like scott walker who could strike the same profile for national electorate and don't nearly have the vulnerability of a bullying persona in his career. so let's say this blows over somewhat and christie survives governor and makes run for president, i think it harms the people he wants to crowd on his

side actually stand away from other competitors. the electorate aside. >> we'll take a break here but we'll pick it up on the other side with the question of where this is going right now because there are so many people out there who may have records subpoenaed, have to testify, so many questions and what is the next shoe to drop? that is what we'll ask. i used to scrub the floor on my knees. [ daughter ] i've mastered the art of foot cleaning. oh, boy. oh, boy. oh, boy. [ carmel ] that drives me nuts. it gives me anxiety just thinking about how crazy they get. [ doorbell rings ] [ daughter ] oh, wow. [ carmel ] swiffer wetjet. you guys should try this. it's so easy. oh, my. [ gasps ] i just washed this floor. if i didn't see it i wouldn't believe it. [ carmel ] it did my heart good to see you cleaning. [ regina ] yeah, your generation has all the good stuff. [ daughter ] oh, yeah. this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too!

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and wind? let's find out. this is where america's electricity comes from. a diversity of energy sources helps ensure the electricity we need is reliable. take the energy quiz. energy lives here. using the george washington bridge, a public resource, to exact a political vendetta is a crime. having people use their official position to have a political gain is a crime. so if those tied back to the governor in any way, it clearly becomes an impeachable offense. >> john wisniewski to msnbc news yesterday. he was on our show earlier. talking about what could come next, heather, that question about what could come next, we

talked about this a lot on the show yesterday. all of these people in christie's orbit who are facing or may face subpoenas, all the people who pop up in these documents from wildstein, who do you think has the most to worry about right now? >> well, those senior staff. so, again, regina egea. the senior staff, more subpoenas will be issued as soon as monday. will they take the fifth again like david wildstein? what i want to know now is, you know, what is david wildstein going to say? his lawyer said if he's given immunity from state and federal prosecutors he has things to sha share. >> that jumped out at me as the most amazing part of the testimony at the very end.

senator, because you've seen a number of political investigations in new jersey, veteran new jersey politics. you are a veteran of watching the new jersey political investigations. when you see david wildstein and his attorney say i want immunity and you might learn a lot more, do you think we might be going down the road where he gets immunized and we might learn more? >> when i heard that i said, wow, it's over. there are going to be other people who say, wait a second? he's going to go in first? no, i want to go in first. and not only was the lane closure recklessly endangering lives a crime, but the cover-up can be obstruction of justice and that happened within the governor's inner circle and likely involved the governor himself. >> and the filings, the stuff that was subpoenaed from wildstein i'm reading through it be and it looks, again, i tell people wildstein was my boss. long story, i told it before. put it out there.

i'm reading all of these e-mails and texts, it reads to me like clues. he's leaving clues here. what is redacted, what isn't? and juicy little clues, this popped up. is it connected to this? and it's baiting prosecutors. it's baiting authorities to say cut me a deal and i can put all of these pieces together. >> are you asking? >> if you have one. >> the problem the christie add prgs has it's like trying to put the ketchup in the bottle at this point. you know if you're reading the reports at least six people who are high-level christie appointees even at the port authority or in the governor's own office knew about what was going on, so the problem is, does that make the governor's denial on thursday that he knew anything about this until the e-mails came out, does that make it look implausible? personally, it seems pretty improbable to me.

that's going to be the real kesh. for christie, however, it's not just a question of surviving as governor. it's a question of the national impact is. if you're out there and you're looking at a possible republican who might have luggage carried into the national campaign, i have to think that's a tremendous liability. so christie is in a difficult position because he's got to clear this up one way or the other. i think that's what the press conference was all about and it was an academy award nomination perfe performance. but the reality is if he's unable to do that, and if the wall breaks, if you have to use a terrible analogy, if you have john dean come out and testify, any one of them, any one of the six, and they say the wrong thing, i think the administration will be in a lot of trouble. >> and, to me, it looked like wildstein was volunteering to play the john dean role in this if they can cut him some kind of a deal. so that jumped out as hugely important. even if chris christie survives all this in new jersey there is still that little matter of the

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dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪ so back when he was treating his whole bridge saga like a big joke, chris christie famously talked about working the cones during a december press conference. pay attention to what he said just after that. >> the fact is i didn't even know ft. lee got three dedicated lanes until all of this happened, and i think we should review that entire policy. i don't know why they need three dedicated lanes. >> why it is much bigger than a traffic scam. [ female announcer ] new clairol age defy color collection. with our best breakthrough gray coverage. lustrous, radiant color that looks 10 years younger. today. [ female announcer ] new age defy color from clairol.

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presidential run in 2016. he was plain by preparing for it and a looked like the front r front-runner. his re-election was part that have strategy. he was by all accounts driven to run up the store against his democratic opponent to show he was marketable in blue state america. that's why he held that special election for the u.s. senate last fall just before the election to make sure cory booker wasn't there to draw away voters from the christie column. now lacking more like this, george washington bridge scandal could harm chris christie in the 2016 presidential run, chris christie's rise in 2016 star in peril as bridge controversy grows. and my personal favorite, forget

about it. gee, i wonder where are that came from, which makes one of the key questions in all of this, what do republicans outside new jersey, republicans in those key early primary and caucus states who will decide whether christie is the candidate in 2016, what do they make of all of this? well, actually a lot of them right now seem to be supportive, the chairwoman of the new hampshire republican party saying in part, quote, i think that it's unlikely this is going to have a significant influence in 2016. i think he handled it very well. i think that he's shown leadership. he held people accountable. in south carolina he chimed, quote, it's a long way until 2016. i don't think governor christie's reputation has been diminished. in fact, it might be increased following the press conference. it's refreshing to see a leader step up and take responsibility. these interviews and more are all part of nbc producer casey hunt's report just released this morning on msnbc.com and she joins us now from our washington bureau.

thanks for taking a few minutes this morning. we really appreciate it. first, we ran a couple of, i guess, representative samples there. you called around to the early primary and caucus states and is that totally reflective of what you heard? that he put this to rest on thursday? >> i wouldn't go so far as to say he put it to rest. everyone is using the caveat, well, assuming he told the truth and there's no other shoe to drop, everyone across the board essentially said he acquitted him seven very well, he handled a bad situation about as well as one could handle it and you also have to consider this in the context of what the alternative could be. a lot of private hand wringing, concern this will mushroom, cause problems for him. they could be publicly stepping out and saying that this is something that could kill him, that he has no shot yet in a presidential race in 2016 and that is not what they're saying at all. instead, they're offering up this idea that this press conference actually in christie's actions make him look like a decisive leader or that's

how it will wear over the course of the next two years as we head toward iowa. and they also say that, you know, it's a little bit of a different side of chris christie than we've seen in some of the other combative press conferences, the things that have gotten him sort of tagged as a bully. instead he sort of had an opportunity to show contrition and to show that he was taking responsibility for what happened, and that offered an opportunity for him to show a different dimension of himself. i think we saw over the course of that press conference the top of the press conference was very much like that. it seemed to fall back into combative christie as the press conference went on. but it's pretty clear these figures want to at least make sure that christie still has an opportunity in their states. >> well, yeah, old habits die hard for christie's press conference. it almost sounds to me like what you're describing is wishful on the part of these republicans, they saw this perfeormance, the theater, the drama of what he did on thursday, very impressive from a thee at atrical standpoid

if everything he says it true i'll sit here and say, yeah, that's impressive in a leader. but if you've been listen iing the earlier part of the show, there are so many unanswered questions left. there are so many mechanisms that are in place to potentially bring out more information that could be damaging to him. that image of new jersey, there are two images of new jersey. that's what my experience has been. one is the positive one that chris christie has played off, i'm this unvarnished guy, i tell it like it is. i'm blunt. it's jersey style. he goes around the country talking that way. are you hearing when you talk to republicans across the country, are they thinking of that other reputation of new jersey now, that reputation of this den of seediness, of corruption, of a lot of questionable behavior? is this bringing up or reinforcing any of that? >> for sure. i think there's some concern that christie's reputation as a reformer could be damaged by this in particular. one of the reasons christie has been so appealing in the early

stages of this presidential race, while he has plenty of problems with conservatives, he does have a style that appeals to tea party voters. but those tea party voters are also particularly concerned about issues like corruption in government and having good management, they're fed up with washington, d.c. to have him act like this or have the perception that he's acting like this or allowing this to go on in his administration is sort of making people nervous in the early states about how much crossover appeal is he going to maintain. and his personality, also, if you think about the states that play an early role in the process, iowa, everyone has a reputation for being iowa nice. it's a bit of a cliche but the reality is they sort of want their politicians to be aboveboard. it's clear christie has the best shot in new hampshire of all the early states, it's the conventional wisdom at this point. when you move on to the south, i've had several people raise concerns about how he would do in south carolina in particular and in the south in general as a region. i mean, it's kind of a genteel

place. they played dirty politics a lot but it's very much behind the scenes. it's not in your face, and they expect people to be pretty polite and it's going to be -- it's an open question as to whether christie will be able to walk that line from this personality perspective in addition to what they're looking from him on the policy side. >> so there are questions here about what the early republican primary states are saying about him but also questions about what his potential rivals are saying, how they might use that, and we have some fascinating quotes on that this week. we'll share a few of those and toss it around when we come back after this. try align. it's the number one ge recommended probiotic that helps maintain digestive balance. ♪ stay in the groove with align. i'm bethand i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink.

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i don't know who e-mailed who and who works for whom. i have been in traffic before and i know how angry i am in traffic and always wonder, who did this to me? [ inaudible ]. >> rand paul having probably one

of the funnest days of the last maybe year or two for him. rand paul clearly ran for president but has been trying to pick fights with chris christie. there's been early 2016 squabbling and watching rand paul suggests to me we can talk from cakasie's great reporter about how people are responding. you alluded to this earlier, it's a question, look, if christie's rivals -- if he does run and his raveals in 2016 decide to resurrect this and use this, this is a potentially powerful thing for them. >> 2016 will not be 2012 for the republican party. there are strong candidates on all sides of the republican divide. if you're rand paul, and i think rand paul -- i'm not sure rand paul is the strongest candidate in the world, but he's not a weak candidate. you're running to president and want to throw water on the guy who is saying he's the potential safe are yvior of the republica. this is what you say to voters

in iowa and south carolina, you say to donors in texas, like, look at this guy. we don't know if he is the nominee or if something will come out to sink our ticket completely. the republican party is at a point now they are losing three presidential elections in a row is very unusual. and if it were to happen it would turn last year's round of soul-searching. it would blow that away there would be a real drive in the republican party to change something. it's the thing that doesn't happen. >> and that has been the big selling point for chris christie nationally electability. that's why he cared so much about winning by such a big margin. i can win by 22 points in blue state new jersey. i can put pennsylvania in play, all of these things, and the question is does that also change the thinking of republicans? maybe this guy isn't our bill clinton. >> right. he got 60 democrats to endorse him. look at the exit polls in that race. he had women, he had minorities.

i was just looking at them yesterday, he even had liberals who voted for him. the question is now since he's come out, there's been a lot of voices saying, i wish i hadn't voted for him. does that start to translate nation nationally to some of that great white partisan strength a little bit. >> you have barbara buono saying, gee, i remember those bumper stickers in massachusetts. i saw a few of them in my town growing up, we told you so, with the outline for of massachusetts. you would played rand paul and also lindsey graham this week gave a quote to nbc news. this is what lindsey graham told -- it's not something we can play. it seems to me that this whole bridge thing reinforces a narrative that's troublesome about this guy. he's kind of a bully. he went on cnn late they're day

and tried to walk it back a little bit on cnn. i think he went a long way to helping himself today, blah, blah, blah. the first shows the instinct of lindsey graham. are you noticing a disconnect between the early state people and how they're processing this in washington? >> actually i talked to lindsey and he had a number of choice words to say about christie. it was pretty clear he felt the need to backpedal pretty quickly after that came out. i mean, there's -- the disconnect here even in the early states you have an establishment versus an insurgent wing of the party, and that really to what you were talking about earlier, is the second half of this, what's going on, these early state people are very concerned about the continuing civil war between the insurgent wing and the establishment and they're really concerned this has already fed fuel into this fire and given conservatives a reason to go after somebody they think is a

plausible candidate to beat hillary clinton. >> all right. nbc's kasie hunt. we thank you. it's a great story this morning. we thank you for taking a few minutes to join us this morning. still ahead, some new developments on the stakes involved in all of this. we will tell you all about that straight ahead. to stretch my party budget. but when my so-called bargain brand towel made a mess of things, i switched to bounty basic. look! one sheet of bounty basic is 50% stronger than a full sheet of the bargain brand. bounty basic. the strong but affordable picker upper. ♪ no need to chuck, donate or burn them ♪ ♪ just pack them in our flat rate box ♪ ♪ we'll come to your door and return them ♪ ♪ gifts you bought but never gave away ♪ ♪ or said you liked but thought were cheesy ♪ ♪ you don't even need to leave your house ♪ ♪ we'll come and take them, easy-peasy ♪ [ female announcer ] no one returns the holidays like the u.s. postal service. with improved priority mail flat rate, just print a label, schedule a pickup, and return those gifts at a same low flat rate. ♪ just print a label, schedule a pickup,

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there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. so after this week the words time for some is traffic in ft. lee destined to echo through the ages in politics. they will become the perfect shortis hand for unleashing a devious political payback sch e scheme. some traffic in ft. lee is what bridgette ann kelly, governor chris christie's former deputy chief of staff seeped to order up in her already notorious e-mail and traffic in ft. lee is what christie's crew at the port authority delivered. you've heard all the nightmare stories from the second week of last september. the travel times tripled,

children sitting on buses that couldn't move or waiting for buses that wouldn't come, that couldn't come, the ambulances that were taking twice as long to make it to emergency calls, the frustration, the rage, even the potential tragedy. this is the human story we've talked about when we talked about the closure of those access lanes to the george washington bridge did to ft. lee, new jersey. and it was the question of payback, of apparent political payback that seemingly was directed by members of chris christie's team against the town's democratic mayor. but it also was more than this, more than has been reported so far. it wasn't just the everyday lives of commuters and residents altered and in some cases jeopardized by what happened in ft. lee. something else was affected, was potentially jep advertised, something of enormous economic and political significance. something we've learned about through some research and some reporting the last few days and what we've discovered in turn raises a host of questions. remember the question that hangs over all of this obviously is

how much chris christie knew, when he knew it, and why if he was involved at all, why he would have inserted himself into an ultra local ultra petty affair. and to start to answer that question we need a clearer picture of motives and stakes. what could have motivate add governor to care so much about the mayor of a medium sized new jersey town, a town that's one of 5 66 municipalities, to single that mayor out for this kind of treatment. that's how we approached it. what exactly was at stake with these closures? so here is what we found. this is an e-mail sent by the mayor of ft. lee to christie's point man at the port authority, bill barone after the fourth straight morning of the lane closures in full effect. and in that e-mail he pleads for the lanes to be reopened and he includes this, quote, query, what do i do when our billion dollar redevelopment is put online at the end of next year? now maybe you've heard sokolich

make reference to that in interviews. we thought we would take a closer look and here is a closer story. this for decades, what you're looking at, was perhaps the most coveted slice of real estate in all of new jersey, a priceless patch of 16 empty acres situated at the edge of the george washington bridge, the gateway to new york city, smack in the middle of ft. lee. 16 acres of land that has a rich and tortured history. nearly 40 years ago a previous mayor of ft. lee, burt ross, pictured on the right on the screen there, he was approached by allegedly mob-linked developers and he was made an offer that was awfully hard to refu refuse. give them the rights to slap a high rise on that land, those 16 acres, and he would give them a million dollars. burt ross didn't want that money but he did wear a wire for the feds and those crooked developers went to jail. a book was even written about this called "the bribe."

this wasn't the luckiest piece of land. and since then, four decades ago, that land, those 16 acres that every builder in the state has salivated over, that land has sat vacant. that is until last year and that's because of mark sokolich a mayor who says he has no higher ambitious in life than to run his town and he has made the redevelopment of that site his defining mission as mayor. it's what he's poured his efforts into, what he wants to be remembered for. it is his legacy. so what is it that he's done, that he wants to do? the project is so big he's split it in two. the eastern half of the land -- the whole thing they call redevelopment area five, for what that's worth. the eastern half will be occupied by two 47-floor residential towers. ground was broken in late 2012. the first one is up and the second one on its way. residents are expected to start moving in later this year. then there's the second half of

redevelopment. the western acres. this is where things get interesting because, well, take a look at this. this is from "the bergen record" announcing financing has been secured for that part of the redevelopment for a project called hudson lights. it's a $218 million deal for a mix of residential, commercial, and parking space. it turns out, according to the article, this announcement had been delayed because the people behind it wanted to name a big name tenant and to nail down financi financing. look at the date on the article, september 16, 2013. that is three days and the first full business day after ft. lee's traffic nightmare ended. three days after pat ford, the executor of the port authority, not aponted by christie and there to represent the state of new york, three days after he had written a scathing memo about the lane closures calling them hasty, ill-advised, calling them a potential violation of state and federal law. that is the memo that put a stop

to ft. lee's traffic problems. and then a couple days later the financing issues were over and the money to continue building that redevelopment area five was in place. now check this out. again, here is the street map around redevelopment area five. highlighted to point out something nobody besides the everyday driver of ft. lee knows. those lanes that were closed by christie's port authority crew are the same lanes anyone moving into or working at or parking at anything built in redevelopment area five will be using some day. its proximity to the bridge is part of why the redevelopment area five was such coveted real estate for so many years and that approximaproximity was a m selling point in a brochure the main developer of hudson lights published. and as the town of ft. lee considered whether to allow all of this redevelopment it had a traffic study to emphasize the speedy and direct access tenants

would have during rush hour to the george washington bridge because of those lanes. quoting from the study, note that the shared westbound left turn thru lane operates as a full movement lane during the constrained conditions of the weekday morning peak period due to the high volume entering the george washington bridge. additionally the shared southbound thru right turn lane is assigned as an exclusive right turn lane during the weekday morning peak period. in plain english, thanks to the local access lanes, the town wouldn't have to worry about a glut of new traffic and the redevelopers could sell inve investors and tenants on the easy ride to the bridge and into new york city. but close down those lanes and that changes everything. this huge, massive, decades in the making, billion dollar redevelopment plan that mark sokolich faces incredible headaches. the value is directly related to how easy it is to get to the bridge. take those lanes away, reduce those lanes severely, it's no

longer so attractive to residents, to tenants, maybe even to redevelopers. so what does this have to do with chris christie? that's one of the unanswered questions. maybe it has nothing to do with him. but consider how christie talked about those ft. lee access lanes, the lanes that redevelopment area five sits on top of. consider how christie talked about them back on december 2 when he was still trying to blow this all off, still trying to make jokes about putting out coats. this is what he said moments after that joke. >> i didn't even know ft. lee had three dedicated lanes. i think we should review that entire policy. i don't know why they need three dedicated lants and i told samson that we should look at this policy. i don't know why one town gets three lanes. one town maybe. i don't quite get it. >> and that is the same sentiment that his port authority pointman expressed when he testified, not under oath, before the state assembly committee looking at this back

in november. >> is it fair that one community with 4.5% of the users has direct lanes on the bridge where every other community, and with the exception of assemblyman amodeo, forgive me, every one of you has people in your communities who sit in longer traffic every day because of the special lanes for ft. lee? >> when you consider those comments and when you consider that christie was still this week suggesting there might have been some kind of real traffic study, it suggests the possibility that there was a plan to severely restrict the access to those lanes permanently. and to do that would be to alter the future of redevelopment area five, that $1 billion project that is so important to sokolich, the biggest in the history of his town, something

he staked his reputation on, something he has called, quote, monumental in the rebirth of ft. lee. so while we've talked a lot this week about how the traffic jams caused by the lane closures caused headaches for the mayor because of the traffic jams and delayed emergency responses and the stalled school buses, what we haven't talked about is what he asked baroni about in the e-mail he sent to him way back when this started going on. query: what do i do when our billion dollar redevelopment is put on line at the end of next year? the threat to permanently close, reduce those lanes would have been a threat to unravel what sokolich has as the crown jewel of his tenure as mayor. the career of the mayor of ft. lee was affected by the lane closures. there is still a lot we don't know like, for instance, was this part of a payback plan to

derail, devalue, destroy this $1 billion project? if it was, did it almost work? does the reason that it took extra time to line up financing for the hudson lights project have anything to do with the lane closures? there was, as we have found, a ft. lee borough council meeting where in closed session with no notes the contract with tucker development, the prime developer behind hudson lights, was discussed. this came just two days after the infamous time for some traffic in ft. lee e-mail was sent by bridgette kelly. was anything relevant to all of this discussed at the august 15 meeting? and what about the next council meeting held august 22, a week layer, where the mayor was authorized to execute approval of financing, documents for the redevelopment. and finally, what about that apparent meeting between governor christie and david samson, former state attorney general, and the man appointed to chair the port authority? a week or so before kelly wrote that time for some traffic

e-mail. we know that meeting apparently happened because of text messages subpoenaed from david wildstein, told to turn over records that are relevant to the lane closure. so by turning over those texts, he is suggesting that the christie/samson meeting had something to do with the closures. again, there are far more questions than answers here. even if undermining sokolich's prize redevelopment program was part of the scheme, we don't know why he was targeted or if there was someone else, someone bigger at stake at the heart of this. weigh still don't know who would have been involved. documents haven't told us that story. we do know the biggest project ever undertake nen ft. lee, that had huge economic ramifications was affected by the closures. was on so can kolich's mind during the closures and could have been significantly altered if those closures had remained in place for good. this affected more than just the

traffic. we'll talk about these revelations with a special guest, someone who can help us understand them after this. is the inside of your body. see, the special psyllium fiber in metamucil actually gels to trap some carbs to help maintain healthy blood sugar levels. metamucil. 3 amazing benefits in 1 super fiber. i just served my mother-in-law your chicken noodle soup but she loved it so much... i told her it was homemade. everyone tells a little white lie now and then. but now she wants my recipe [ clears his throat ] [ softly ] she's right behind me isn't she? [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. in the nation, we reward safe driving. add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get $100 off your deductible for every year of safe driving. which means you could save... a lot of benjamins. we put members first, because we don't have shareholders. join the nation.

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the fact is i didn't even know if ft. lee got three dedicated lanes until all of this stuff happened, and i think reshould review that entire policy. i don't know why ft. lee needs three dedicated lanes and i've told sharon samson this. i don't know why one down gets three lanes. one lane maybe. three lanes for one town? i don't quite get it. >> we're back talking about a new briwrinkle in the chris christie traffic plan, a new development right on top of those access lanes. i want to bring in brian murphy, one-time new jersey politics reporter, now we've been talking about this story.

still on our panel heather hadley, rick mer can kt, ray lesniak and jamelle bouie of "the daily beast." you once wrote for politicsmj.com. we can both put that out there. you are also an expert on new jersey politics and you know a lot about how the intersection between development issues and new jersey politics. first, can you explain a little bit just -- we put it in that piece there but the permanent closure of these traffic lanes in a project like this, what the effect would be on a project like this? >> i think it would be devastating. and i should say not only did i work for law edge, david wildstein, baroni was at my wedding. i know these people. i should put that out there. when you look at the map, the

access to the gwb, the george washington bridge, the approximate proximity of the ramp to the project, it's a billion dollar project the mayor has talked about it. without those lanes, that is not a billion dollar project anymore. it affects the vitality and the viability of that project. and it's just hard for me to believe that investors weren't sweating during that week when those lanes were closed. i mean, you think about sort of -- and this is where i think you begin to think about development and the role of development politics and what is it political parties and political institutions do when they're not running candidates for rae election and they're not running election campaigns? they get involved in things like this. the reason it's worthwhile to have your people at port authority, and the reason someone like david samson even takes a job at a place like port authority is you get to do big deals. you get to get involved in big development projects. and so development is very much a part of politics, right? we think about the port

authority as something that kind of professionalizes this process and these assets like the lincoln tunnel and the george washington bridge. but they don't take the politics out of it. the politics gets intensified in many ways. >> well, the other thing there we play christie -- we played baroni, both giving this sort of story they are concerned that ft. lee has dedicated ft. lee only lanes. and you know this and you can speak to this a little bit, the reality of the lanes and who uses the lanes is overwhelmingly not -- this is to ease traffic in north jersey to the george washington bridge. so when i hear those explanations, again, there could be a lot of red herrings here and a lot we don't know but it sounds like bogus explanations put out there in place of something else. whatever that something else is, we don't know. but those do not seem like reasonable explanations. >> that's exactly right. that's exactly correct. you look at the physical

location where that is, it's not only ft. lee using those lanes. i use those lanes. everybody on the show today has driven across the bridge, uses those lanes, sometimes the other get backed you up. south of ft. lee or to the north of ft. lee, you are also using those lanes, so it's not just three lanes to ft. lee. that statement jumps out at me as something patently not true and not believable as a storyline. >> senator lesniak, we put in there there's this insinuation in wildstein's e-mails, texts that got released, there was a meeting between the governor and samson. what is your -- how suspicious are you about the role of david samson, the chairman of the port authority in all of this? >> well, he's going to have to be called for a witness by wisniewski. he's going to be put under oath and he will be asked. whether he takes the fifth, we don't know. that's one way to get to the bottom of it and find out.

>> and, brian, the other thing here, too, we've been trying to get to the question of motive, right, like the story that's been out there has been like, well, sokolich didn't endorse chris christie. chris christie wanted democratic endorsements and, therefore, he was punished. it's never quite made sense because sokolich is a mayor of a mid-sized town and this is disproportionate retribution. again, when you start to look at this development project, you talk about the mayor of a mid-size mid-sized town who has a billion dollars attached to him, who has a project that is viable for the economic well-being not of just his town but of the state of new jersey. so this claim by christie, i couldn't pick him out of a lineup, i never knew who he was, because that have project he should have known who sokolich was. >> that's the thing viewers have to understand is that development projects when they're being put together, there are hundreds of small choices that have to be made.

about who gets a contract, which engineering firm, which traffic engineering firms? who gets picked to do the traffic study and all of those decision decisions happen within an economy of influence. and who is picked is influenced by the developer and in part who has permanent control, who is in charge of the zoning authority over this. who is in charge of the approvals. all of those people have moments they could put a bid in for their own people. that's why, again, something is like port authority is important. you look back at this historically, i look at it as a historian and think about the triborough bridge, they are not just projects in their own right but make other land valuable and the tolls that those projects collect get fed not just into the painting and paving and buying coffee for the office, they get used to underwrigte other projects.

at every level, the smallest level, a billion dollar project like this means that mark sock sokolich has a big foot in the door on this big project and that project has a lot of money to spend. and if he wanted to tray y to muscle in on getting a piece of that, boy, this is one way to do that. and we don't know that's what happened. >> exactly. >> again, we both worked for david wildstein. i know bill baroni. these are smart gentlemen. it's just hard for me to believe that people put themselves on the line for something like an endorsement. >> all right. brian murphy, you've been a huge help to us. we appreciate it. thank you for your time, some great insight on new jersey politics and intersection development. we have one more block to go here on new jersey. i want to go back to our panel for final thoughts on this. this is a story with so many angles. we'll do one more block. it's not enough but we'll do one

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♪ back to close out the conversation on chris christie here. and, rick, i'll turn to you as someone who probably knows him personally better than anyone else here. we started this show today by looking at how chris christie has in the past called people liars be and then it's turned out there's been documents out that have shown they were not lying to chris christie. and i remember when that happened with bret schundler, somebody told me you have to appreciate the psychology of chris christie, liken him to lbj. if you read the books about lbj, talk about how he can come up with these elaborate stories in his mind. lbj would tell you with convincing fervor and detail there's an element of that in christie. is that an accurate assessment? >> well, i think he's a very, very gifted presenter, if you

will. his difficulty is that the story he's giving out to the public right now doesn't quite jive with what people know about how he operates and how he attacks politics. he has to persuade not just america, he has to persuade first new jersey that six of his people knew about this stuff, but he didn't know a thing. i don't find it plausible. i doubt the people of new jersey will find it plausible. folks nationally looking at this right now are just seeing soundbites. they're not seeing the whole sto story. it's early. i think when the whole message comes out, i believe we'll know exactly what the governor was telling the truth or whether he was lying to us. >> jamelle, from the national sta standpoint, the national press, this is their biggest story this we week, do you think the national press is going to follow up on this now and follow the granular at the tails that comes out or is this a story the national press steps away from and it's dependent on whether the local

press can report anything else? >> i think it's probably a combination of both. as long as there's a drip-drip, the national press will be on it, will be paying attention to it. if the drip-drip stops the national press will go to wherever the red laser the dot points next. they're like cats. if local reporters turn something up in that event, then it all starts again. i would liken it to virginia with bob mcdonnell. the national press was on the first revelations regarding the gift scandal when he took tens of thousands of dollars in gifts from assorted people and sort of dropped away. every time something new popped up, a big revelation popped up and the national press was on it again. >> he's saying it's on you, it's on you and your colleagues who follow this every day to get to the bottom of this. >> one thing i would say, this is coming at the worst time for the governor. this is a time for him where he is in a very public role. in the state of the state, that's the governor gives the ceremonial remarks.

the whole question before this was whether he's going to call for a tax cut now before. will he still do that? and then he's going to florida. he is the new chair of the republ republican governors association, a very public role for him. so he's going to continue to be in the national press just by default right now. it's going to be hard to totally ignore him or this issue. >> just very quickly, senator lesniak, there's this outstanding issue chris christie's chief of staff wants him to be the next attorney general. the confirmation hearings are on hold. do you think that nomination is now dead? >> well, and i like o'dowd but we will question him under oath about his role in all of the discussions. that would have been a difficult one for him, so i don't see how he can possibly appear before the judiciary committee and answer these questions under oath. >> no one seems to want to answer the questions. this panel will answer it.

i want to thank heather haddon, rick merkt, ray lesniak. coming up, why in this election arkansas is such an important state and why last night four sitting senators went down there to dine on raccoon. we have an incredible video report bringing you our own behind-the-scenes look at this curious, quirky, and very important political tradition. [ fishing rod casting line, marching band playing ] [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. [ m'm... ] great taste. [ tapping ] sounds good. campbell's healthy request. m'm! m'm! good.® ♪ ♪

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in presidential years battles in states like ohio and flo florida. in 2014 it's the control of the senate up for grabs. the state of arkansas is at the heart of that fight. democrat the mark pryor might be the most vulnerable inkcumbent. facing tom cotton, an iraq veteran attacking pryor. every democrat is attacking every democrat for supporting that. all of this in a state that was

a democratic bastion but moving further and further to the gop column. if you want to be a politician in arkansas no matter what your party, you have to eat raccoon. annual feasts are a ritual. you may have heard of the fancy farm in kentucky or in arkansas the big day on the political day is the gillett coon supper, short for raccoon. then they started serving it in the '40s and over the years politicians began showing up. some of the people put out a crisis call that more raccoons were needed for the supper. it must be a raccoon. don't try to bring in other small animals and pass them off as raccoons. the feast is such a big deal in arkansas political culture that longtime senator dale bumpers

invoked it during bill clinton's impeachment proceedings 15 years ago. has it already been 15 years? >> as i come here with some sense of reluctance, the president and i have been close friends for 25 years. we even crashed a twin engine beech bonanza trying to get to the gillett coon supper, a political event that won at his own risk. and we crashed this plane on a snowy evening in a rural airport. off the runway, sailing out across the snow jumped out, j jumped up, and ran away unscathed. to the dismay of every politician in arkansas.

>> back in 1987 then governor bill clinton showed up and commented on the main course. >> for those who have never had the opportunity to try coon, we asked some to tell us what it tastes like. >> it taste as little like squirrel except squirrel is a little tougher and more stringy. but if you can cross a squirrel with a chicken, that would be coon. >> it's sweeter than beef or pork. >> those were bill clinton's pre-vegan days. why just pryor and cotton? this was something we had to experience ourselves. not me. i only eat about five things and raccoon doesn't happen to be one of them. that would be too much saturated fat or something. i was able to talk a few people into going for us. perry bacon and anne thompson.

they were in gillett and fwaut to sgot to see what the coon supper was all about. ♪ >> tell us how much do you like or dislike eating raccoon? >> these are great people. i represented them for a long time. >> on a scale of one to ten, i'd better not go there. >> if something moves in the woods, someone will kill it and eat it in arkansas. >> it's not just eating coon it's barbecued raccoon. >> i said it was awesome. they said how was the raccoon, i said it was on the plate. >> what are you all doing here? >> we're here for the coon dinner. what else? it's delicious. i came 1,000 miles. we're here to support our

friend, mark pryor. >> i'm looking forward to my first taste of raccoon. i've heard about it. must be an arkansas delicacy. >> you can't just go down to walmart and pick up some coon. >> the raccoon, is it good? >> yes, it is very good. >> i want to spit it out. >> what's left people take home for dinner tomorrow. ♪ perfery bacon jr. joins us from little rock. we have the communications director with the pro-hillary clinton group, also an arkansas native. she knows politics in her state very, very well. maybe raccoon, too. political columnist at the guardian. ja jamelle bouie is back with us. we have a plate of delicious

starbucks pastries at our table. i would not be afraid to eat these. raccoon a little different. the first question, did you eat the raccoon? >> of course i did, steve. i'm here. i do not recommend it. i tried toef a second piece to try it out and it was really a little stringy. it's a worse version of deer. it does not taste like chicken like a lot of other things do. it is not a meat i recommend it. >> they say it tastes like chicken and is a worse version of deer that doesn't clear it up in my mind. i haven't eaten deer either. i love these quirky local political traditions. we did one a few months ago on fancy farm in kentucky, very quirky things. this is also a major event in arkansas. we have clinton there a generation ago. you have arkansas as the center of top political in the country. tell us about the politics of what you were watching last

night. >> you have two big races. you mentioned earlier mark pryor against tom cotton, a sfat race and who controls the senate. the other big race down here is mike ross who if you remember was actually a congressman, a democratic congressman from arkansas now running for governor. he was actually bill clinton's driver back in the '80s. he's running against asa hutchinson, one of the impeachment managers. they are running hin a big race here. two hours south of little rock. everyone feels like they have to really attend even though ross and hutchison, it's only cotton and pryor who got to speak. not only is there a summer but there's a raccoon supper, there's a presupper event now, too. almost a day long event here in gillett, a town of 621 people. >> do they eat anything funny at the presupper where they have chipmunks or squirrels or

something? >> so they have a duck wrap, a duck wrapped in bacon. but the food there is actually pretty good. there's no raccoon served at the presupper and that's very intentional. pretty much no one i met in arkansas actually enjoys eating raccoon and the people who i would say would like it, i would ask them how often do you eat it and they would say once a year at this event. >> there was the great raccoon shortage of 2013 apparently. atredrienn adrienne, you've eaten it. what's the story? >> i've had it before. perry said no one from arkansas actually likes raccoon. i would say it's not horrible. it's not my preferred thing to eat. >> not horrible. there is the endorsement for the raccoon industry. >> there are worse things you could eat. it is a tradition in arkansas. this ises a really big dinner that anyone who is running for elected office could say why you

have to go to. eating raccoon or at least taking a bite of it is something that, you know, you kind of have to do when you go to the dinner. >> it dates back to the 1940s. is there another purpose for it? are they raising money? what kind of crowd does it usually attract? >> the dinner started out as a fund raidser for the gillett high school football team and it sort of evolved into keeping the football team afloat and then evolving into paying for uniforms and what not for the team. and then marion barry is a former member of congress took it over and made it more into a political type of event. it was something that obviously then governor bill clinton attended every year. as senator bumpers was talking on the floor of the senate the about the importance and the infamous plane landing that he was talking about. so it's something is if you are

running for office in arkansas especially in a high-profile position, you need to be there. >> i'm guessing raccoon not vegan, bill clinton probably wouldn't be eating that. are you like me? i love -- >> the chad clinicing? i love this stuff. the front page of "the times" the story about how national networks are funding all the state races and creating and nationalizing these races so that one party can control the whole thing. these things we're talking about are not criticisms. parties no longer need them in the state. national money is coming in. so the only way they can survive is to become a media event. as far as fund-raisers go, a lot have disappeared. i noticed the article your producer sent around from "the new york times" from 1987. as far as like a catalog of regional dinners go. they can be very important, one of the big ones, i'm sure maybe

everyone had here has been to the iowa jefferson jackson dinner where candidate obama made one of his first incredibly successful speeches that put him on the map and put him on the map -- he was on the map but made it credible as a challenger to hillary clinton. remember when hillary clinton was -- i was at that dinner and it was different to be there. i mean, it reminded me of perry because there is a value of going to these things. you do see something different. >> it's disspiriting in a way our politics has become so almost nationalized and predictable and we can run these -- oh, this candidate will run by 40%. so you have these things, it makes it more haw man, more quirky. but there are, as we said in the introduction, real stakes to this election in arkansas this year. so we'll talk a little bit about what we heard from the candidates last night, how this fits in the picture and we will pick it up, mora cons and more politics after this. a heart valve problem. dad, it says your afib puts you

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raccoon supper in arkansas, but, also, as we were saying, jamelle, this is a hugely important race. the control of the u.s. senate is up in 2014. mark pryor is one of those increasingly rare arc a arc basically a red state, he's a defensemen the krat. been there for two terms. he's in serious danger of losing his re-election. talk about raising in terms of the national context of what this says about 2014, the climate, the republican strategy this year. >> democrats have a band a hand this year, having to defend a b bunch of red states in north carolina and arkansas. they just lost the state and louisiana. >> yes. >> and they don't have enough seats to be able to just lose them and hold the senate. they sort of have to -- repub c republicans still have to run the table, i think, to control everything. but every seat is democrat that democrats lose, it's not good for them. and so that's basically the race. mark pryor, if mark pryor can

survive, defensemmocrats can lo every other race this year in these states and still hold on to the senate. and if he can hold on to the senate for this cycle then 2016a very good cycle for them. >> they have so much tea party senators in wblue states coming up. you're almost certain to use in a presidential year. >> the ron johnsons in wisconsin. >> tell us a little bit about the evolution of politics in arkansas. it's bill clinton's home state. you know, it is a state with a -- like every southern state, has a democratic tradition. slower than other democratic states, moving to the republican column. but really, that seems to have accelerated in the obama era. can you tell us about what's going on in arkansas? >> all you have to do is go back to 2009, when five of the six federally elected office holders were democrats and of course, now that's flipped, where you have five of the six who are republicans. obviously, 2010 was a very brutal year for democrats across the country and arkansas was no exception. but the unique thing about

arkansas, in my view is, they look at personality over politics in my regards. governor mike beebe is a perfect example. he is, time and time again, the most popular democratic -- i'm sorry, most popular governor in the country. and he's a democrat in a state that many people consider to be red. so, you know, i think when you look at these upcoming elections in 2014 in arkansas, people are going to be looking at the person who they can identify the most with as opposed to somebody who, you know, may be a republican or may be a democrat. >> i want to get perry bacon in here from little rock. perry, the thing that jumped out at me from your video, angus came from maine, dick durbin -- you have these out of state senators, who have no interest in eating raccoon, coming down to this dinner. that's how important this race is for democrats in keeping control of the senate. >> it also told you, so, they were here to go to this dinner, because they've heard of it before. they wanted to go duck hunting with pryor. it goes to the fact, i don't think any of these three guys

are people who are going to change the dynamics of the race. but it was a show of support. pryor is very well liked among -- there are some senators other senators don't like. pryor is very well-liked among his colleagues. they want to see him win and support him. but the danger is this state is becoming more and more republican. blanche lincoln won 37% of the vote in 2010. obama got 37% of the vote in 2012. and cotton is not, you know, cotton may not be the most personable person. pryor probably knows more people in the state. he's more personable. his dad was a senator too. that said, cotton talking about it all the time. he talked about yesterday, pryor cast the deciding vote for obamacare. it's not clear what the deciding vote is or how you would determine that -- >> everyone's the deciding vote. >> cotton says that every day. and that's a real problem for mark pryor. >> perry bacon, thank you for for eating raccoon for us and thank you for our producer, anne thompson, who went down there as well. that was such a fun piece you

guys put together. so glad we had it. what should we know today? i'll talk to the panel, right after this. she'd just grab the bounty select-a-size. one select-a-size sheet of bounty is 50% more absorbent than a full size sheet of the leading ordinary brand. use less, with bounty select-a-size. [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. [ m'm... ] great taste. [ tapping ] sounds good. campbell's healthy request. m'm! m'm! good.® bulldog: well, pup,

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all right. we're going to find out what our guests think we should know. we'll start with you, adrian. >> sure. i think you should know that if you want to get all the correct information about secretary clinton's record as secretary of state, you can go to our website, correcttherecord2016.org. >> marie? >> the gates poke that's being used to pick a side, people use it as ammunition. people should use the book. it's about the over politicization of politics in the military. it's ironic the that people keep using it as ammunition. >> that is interesting. jamelle. >> a recent study finds if you are an african-american man, you are to three times more likely to be stopped by police for an investigation while driving than a comparably aged white person, and you have to be a 50-year-old african-american to have your

chances reduced to those of a 24-year-old white man. >> that's an interesting study. i also learned, and we didn't get to mention this, jamelle has not had raccoon, but has tried possum before. we've had possum, raccoon and what was the other -- >> cat fish. >> i eat salads and burgers. i want to thank all of you are guests today, thank you for getting up and thank you for joining us. next weekend, luke russert will be joining us for the game show. melissa harris-perry is coming up next. [ mom ] with my little girl, every food is finger food. so i can't afford to have germy surfaces. but a fresh sheet of bounty duratowel leaves this surface cleaner than a germy dishcloth. and it's clinically proven to be 3 times cleaner. so ditch your dishcloth and switch to bounty duratowel.

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of the dusty basement at 1406 35th street the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall off roble avenue. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪ this morning, my question. do american women need their own museum? plus, they're blocking the vote down in north carolina. and, nerdland went bowling in texas. but first, lawmakers who try to walk a mile in the other guy's shoes.