welcome back. we asked you for suggestions on fresh dynamic families. steve said the osmonds. then timothy thought the jeffersons would be pretty good. "morning joe" starts right now. >> i am a huge fan of the heroes

that work in the nsa. they have kept america safe. at a recent study by the nonpartisan new america foundation backs me up, a new analysis of 225 individuals linked to al qaeda and charged with terrorism since september 11th says they had no preventible impacts of preventing acts of terrorism. >> see? i don't understand what people like edward snowden are so mad about. is violating everyone's privacy really that bad if it doesn't even work? good morning, everyone. it's friday. it is friday, january 17th. welcome to "morning joe." with us on set, we have national affairs editor for new york magazine and msnbc political analyst, john heilemann. >> good morning. >> i'm not criticizing style. pulitzer prize winning historian

jon meacham. howard dean. white house correspondent for the associated press, julie pace is with us. good to have you all on board this morning. how is it going? >> going well. something on the front page of "the new york times" you don't see often, picture of the first lady, michelle obama, talking. it's a pretty good profile. >> it is. >> she has perfected -- working on her yoga poses and mediterranean. >> what is that? >> a middle eastern restaurant. >> would you like to pronounce its name correctly? >> no, i cannot do that.

julie, what is it? >> zitina, a highly recommended restaurant. >> that is one of the jose aned anders restaurant, isn't it? >> continuing to push her daughter in sports. said last week that the wondering wonder ing determine dermatology like bow text in the realm of possibility for her. >> not a bad idea. >> that's nice. i'm sure it talks about the incredible work she has done on the nation's health and stuff like that. >> i'm reading the lead of "the new york times" and it's a positive profile of michelle obama. they do know how to draw in dumb readers like myself. >> bobby wrote in steel magnolias, dolly parton

character, ain't no such thing as a natural beauty. >> so what is happening in the other news? we begin with breaking political news. senator tom coburn announced he will retire when this session of congress ends two years before his term expires. the oklahoma republican who is battles prostate cancer says his decision to step down has nothing to do with his health. he ont pledged to serve two terms and writes in a statement, quote, i intend to continue our fight for oklahoma and do everything in my power to force the senate to reembrace its heritage of debate and consensus as we face our many challenges ahead. that, i think, is going to be a real shame. >> a real shame. obviously, on the personal level, i love tom. he has battled cancer a few times. i remember in 2004 being on the set, i guess, on election night and hearing that tom coburn was

elected and i said, i don't say this often but this is a guy i know is going to go to washington and do exactly what he said he was going to do. i was confident in 2004 he wouldn't be swayed by so many of the things. he has been true to his word and god bless him and good luck. >> yeah. i wonder what he will do next. >> we also showed some pictures of someone you know. republican congressman buck mckeown of california also calling it quits. he partially blamed frustration with the tea party for rejecting legislation plans because they weren't, quote, good enough. the house arms services chair became highly emotional as he paid tribute to american troops. >> patricia and i will be among

the thousands who pray. for the safe return of those -- those in uniform around the world fighting for our freedoms. >> you know, seeing buck do that, jon meacham, and, obviously, secretary gates got choked up time and time again at the end of his tenure, you do understand that -- that these people are, you know, sometimes we say, oh, these politicians send troops off to war and they have no idea the impact it has. there are some who actually make it their business. >> right. >> to know exactly what impact it has on families and, mika, so far, i guess 16 members have

decided they are not going to run in the house. it's -- >> 11 republicans. >> 11 republicans out of those. >> it's such frustration on both sides of the aisle. people just deciding it's just not worth it any more. >> yeah. on the troop question, i think, the lawmakers who make it a point to have a tactile connection to the human factor, the human force actually implement policy obviously do have that reaction. one of the reasons that we have talked before is anyone really think if there were a draft in this country the last ten years of military action would have unfolded the way it unfolded? >> absolutely not. >> if, in fact, military service touched every class of american life in a more or less equal way, does anyone think that we would project a force in the ways in which we have and for as long as we have? and no. >> no, it doesn't especially. you look at these numbers here

and, again, you have such a large sector of our population, howard, that has no connection with this experience. >> the interesting thing about this there could be common ground within republicans and democrats if they were willing to do this on this stuff. this is actually not a matter of huge amounts of money put into an anti-helmet program. it's a matter of doing things like having homeless shelters that aren't just beds that people flop in. it's a matter of having actually sros, small single residency occupancy with services within the building so people can be taken care of. we have done some of that but that can be done. the homeless problem is not an expensive problem relative to the amount of money we spend on other tings. >> we have paul rycoff also coming in. 50,000 homeless vets right now.

the fact we have so many challenges facing our men and women coming back. military retirees. the fact that the budget, they decided to take care of shortfalls by cuts to military retirees, i think, is grateful. >> the kufs to him military retirees are between 40 and 60 already retiring and working at other jobs so they are actually doing okay. the pension goes back up 1% once they get to 60 so that was a bit of a hype. i actually looked at that. >> i don't think that is the first place i would go for cuts. just because between 40 and 60 doesn't mean they haven't served their country. >> they have. what i'm saying it's like arguing about social security. the military complains a lot about their pensions because it's a huge expense for them. what they did is take 1% out of the rate of growth between people who retire between 40 and 60 most of whom have other jobs so that no, sir -- it's like saying cutting social security for people who can afford it but

a lot of social security cuts you can't afford but this is one the military could afford. >> we will debate that later. as for washington not being worth it any more which was the touch tone for this conversation, two other political stories coming up. we will talk about chris christie and a new round of subpoenas. first, jeb bush, his mom -- >> she is like, jeb, you stay home. >> she is at it again and saying this pretty often. >> she has been consistent publicly and privately. >> she makes a lot of sense. >> stay in miami. >> if he has any presidential ambitions -- well, he might want to talk to her. >> this is kind of like my dad when i said i was going to run for congress in 1994. my dad said, that is great but i'm voting for earl who was my opponent. you can get through this but, jeb, i got to tell you, it's tough, especially when your mom tells c-span this.

>> if we can't find more than two or three families to run for high office, that's silly because there are great governors and great eligible people to run. there are a lot of ways to serve and being president is not the only one, and i would hope that someone else would run, although there is no question in my mind that jeb is the best qualified person to run for president, but i hope he won't. >> yeah. john heilemann, you know, 25 years later, bush versus clinton, not exactly the recipe for a nation hungry for a new direction. i actually do think it certainly is more obviously a challenge for jeb bush, but, again, i will say, again, i don't think it's going to be easy for hillary clinton when she steps up. maybe it will be in the democratic primary. i don't know. i'm not a democrat and i'm not the person to judge there but in

the general election a clinton 25 years later, eight more years after clinton 25 years later might be tough for americans to swallow that want washington to move in a different direction. >> there is no doubt that there's something a little discomforting about the notion of dynastic politics in america and how american politics should work. the country has, in various states and nationally been accepting of that than people have assumed. i think a reason we have tended in the last 30 years to elect young prosecutesidents and peop looking for a change. people want something that is young. >> you don't have somebody saying i wish we could elect another taft. >> i think there is that element. and if you had those two people up there, it would be -- there would be something odd about it.

given the way our politics works now and the kind of money you have to raise and it turns out a lot of those people are situated to run because of their conte s connections and ability to build up those big campaigns and because of their experience muscle. it would be an odd outcome to see the two of them standing up against each other in 2016. >> to be fair, there is a split ballot in the bush family. >> no doubt. 41 and 43 actually won 45 to be jeb. >> the only thing would make it better if jerry brown runs as a third-party candidate and then you could really have a change ballot. >> the war of the roses. >> all right. moving on. president obama set to deliver a landmark speech on the future how this country collects mass data on americans and people across the world. the president is expected to call for a privacy advocate to argue before the controversial -- and for greater

protections for people living outside of the u.s. and reuters reports he will ask that bulk data not be stored by the can government and expected to call for judicial approval every time the database is searched. with us now from washington, we have former director of the nsa and cia now a principal at churchhoff groove, the retired general michael hayden. >> thanks so much, general. i must knadmit. i'm confused by the president's continued -- i wouldn't say it's a two-step. more like a three-step or a four-step. you run against a program when you're running for president. you say it's a moral. it's anti-american and it cuts against the very fabric of everything that makes us a great country. then you get briefed and then you decide not only that you're going to embrace those tactics that you criticized, but you're going to supersize them and you're going to make them even

more expansive. then something happens let's say edward snowden or a drone strike and you wring your hands in discomfort. then you say i'm now going to reform these and change these tactics which i decided were so important to the safety of americans that i actually expanded what bush and cheney did but i'm going take them away from future presidents. could you, general, explain the wisdom of this in military terms? >> well, it certainly what makes life in the permanent government very, very interesting. and frankly, joe, i think that transition between senator obama and president obama, national security looks different from the oval office than it does on the campaign from a hotel room in iowa. and what is faced with both the realities and with the responsibilities of the office, he's continued, as you said, double down on many of the programs. and, joe, that may actually be

why this is so contentious right now. those who oppose the programs and good americans all, those would oppose them want to blame them on a particular president, president bush. if president bush and president obama do those, it's not their program, it's america's program. >> i want to be very clear. i do not criticize candidate obama for being ignorant of the realities that a commander in chief faces every day. every presidential candidate is ignorant of those realities until they sit in the chair. what disturbs me is the fact that now he has sat in the chair and he understands how essential these techniques are for the protection of americans, in his opinion, he's now talking about curbing those very protections for future presidents. is that a misreading? >> well, we will see what the

speech says, but unless all of the president leagues over the past three days is a massive head fake, i think what we are going to see in the speech, joe, is all of the language in the speech kind of fading left but transformation and transparency and checks and balances but, frankly, i think the substance of the speech is going to be holding his ground. i don't know that american intelgs agencies are going to be doing a whole lot of things different in a week, a month, or a year than what they are doing right now. >> if they are, i think snowden's place in history, it will be interesting to see how it pans out. julie pace in washington has a question for you, general. >> general hayden, the speech is, obviously, highly anticipated and the culmination in many ways of a month-long review that happened in the white house and a presidential commission. i'm curious for your opinion based on the things we have seen over the past couple of days has come out what the president is going to recommend, do you see anything that actually does curb

the nsa's power, particularly as it relates to the phone record collections, or are these highly cosmetic changes or layering on other levels of oversight? you got two elements to the phone records program. one is who holds the data and, secondly, who okays the questioning of the data. i think the president will punt the first question to congress and nsa will continue to hold the data and congress won't come up with an acceptable change and so the data will still be held by the national security agency and, frankly, i think that is fine. there is some dispute as to whether the president will allow nsa to query the data directly or have to go to a fisa court judge every time they do that. i've actually got, julie, some pretty strong feelings about that. i was the director of nsa prior to 9/11 and if you direct the agency, they got to go to a judge before they query data that is already there and

already lawfully collected that feels like september 10th to me. it's a pre9/11 mindset and makes me feel uncomfortable. >> i noticed you were agreeing with the president when he said the president's language will drift left but the reality would stay where it is. >> a couple of days ago, "the new york times" was reporting that the president seemed to be leaning towards having the government keep the med-data and now the reported that the president is going to advocate that data be kept with the telecon's companies. i'm curious, general hayden. so things are in motion. i think a chance what he is trying to do is rhetorically appease critics and i want to ask you a question, general, about the question about public advocate one of the things that the president seems like he is going to advocate today which is have a public advocate that argues against the government

over -- on the question of some of these warrants i think with the fisa court. there are critics of that approach. what do you think about that proposal and i think that could be one of the big things he talks about today. >> that is one of the process things he could shade left on and really, his mission here, i don't think, is to change what we are doing. his mission here is to make people more comfortable about what it is that the intelligence agencies are doing. with regard to the public advocate, in my heart of hearts, it's not necessary and the fisa court has actually said that. but if there is an advocate, i think that is a digestible change, as long as the advocates activities are confined to those macro legal decisions that say this entire approach is lawful and consistent with the fourth amendment. if you put an advocate in there every time nsa wants to go to the court for an individualized specific warrant, you are now

suddenly giving agents of a foreign power more constitutional protections than american citizens have when the fbi wants to go up against them with a criminal warrant. >> do you think those fisa court rulings should be declassified? some in congress want to see that happen. i'm curious about your view on that. >> yeah, i think we need a larger dose of transparency across the board. i know the fisa court judge, judge banks s a little uncomfortable with that because he doesn't think it will present a holistic picture and could be misinterpreted as you declassify this but not that. frankly, john, over the long term and in large measure, we have to be more transparent with the american people to get a level of comfort or at least acceptance because if we don't get that, we are not going to be able to do these things in the first place any more. >> general michael hayden, thank you so much. good to have you on the show again. >> thank you. coming up on "morning joe," congressman keith elson and

nbc's david gregory, eugene robinson. later, actress marilu henner. up next, jim vandehei will explain why some folks are spiking the football own chris christie. we will have an update on the bridgegate decision as well. the political playbook is also comp. first, bill karins with our forecast. >> a fire blew newspaperup in ad burning five homes and no rain in the forecast. colby fire the smoke plume was blowing over the top of los angeles and pretty amazing to see. the drought situation in california, the extreme numbers gets to your attention. 63% of the state now in the extreme category. that jumped from 27% to 63% in one week because the rainy season and it hasn't rained yet. much of the west is still in a drought actually. it spread up into oregon and nevada and areas of new mexico

and arizona. very little, if any rain, is expected in the next ten days throughout areas of the west. the blizzard conditions, roads were closed yesterday. windchills down to zero in chicago. so that is where the cold arctic air is. also a little bit of snow for you this morning in kentucky and drive carefully there and no travel concerns, whatsoever, for the eastern seaboard today and over the weekend looks nice too. washington, d.c. not a bad morning for you but wait until i tell you how cold it's going to be next week. you probably will not like it. you're watching "morning joe." ♪ [ male announcer ] what if a small company became big business overnight? ♪

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we just heard a funny story. >> yes, we did. >> brought to us by john heilemann. >> i'm in trouble now and never should have told you this and why green rooms should be banned! banned!

>> it started with governor dean boasting with the minor baseball bat in vermont and not able to tell me the name of the team. he went on to say when he ran for election as governor of vermont he challenged by his opponent in the debate to name his modern debate and the sitting governor came up blank and he said, no, i think it was in latin. >> it's not in latin. i had a moment. freedom in unity, right? >> a good one. i love it. >> three whole words hard to memorize. >> i should not know. it was awful. >> it's okay, howard. let's take a look at the morning papers. "the new york times" a new quinnipiac poll says two-thirds of new york city voters are optimistic about new mayor bill de blasio. 3 out of 4 new yorkers support his plan to raise the income tax on residents and making the more than 500,000 to pay for pre-k. so far -- is that correct?

in an overwhelming 69% of voters oppose his plan to end carriage rides in central park. >> the "chicago tribune." a woman pulled over for driving while wearing google classes case was dismissed from court. it's sparking questions about distracted driving laws and new forms of technology. i will tell you seriously i take different roads going home some times. i do not take winding roads because i'm afraid -- i think for good reason -- of drivers going around corners and texting. i mean, that's the new challenge. >> i think some cars will have the internet. >> take the carriage ride home. >> i would like to do that. we actually -- t.j. lives in lancaster county. he has a carriage ride.

>> mennonite carry. >> how long is that commute, t.j.? >> about three hours. >> three hours? >> yeah, the horse is slow. >> what is the name of the horse again? >> abraham. >> abraham. >> something in latin. >> something in latin. are you guys still going to be able to do that with mayor de blasio? we could get one of those reporter plates? >> nyk? a new report from the surgeon general results smoking to colon cancer and diabetes and various birth defects. smoking costs the u.s. 286 billion in various medical costs for smokers and those exposed to second-hand smoke. i was just asking the other day on the set who here smokes because i just -- i don't know. >> the interesting thing is --

>> especially young people. >> what is the deal? >> smoking what? >> my understanding with those e-cigarettes they kind of help people quit. >> they do. this is an interesting controversy and i don't have an opinion on it, for once. the controversy is this an entryway into smoking cigarettes for young kids or is it a way to quit? i suspect it's a way to quit mostly. >> i have friends that have been smoking for decades. >> swear by it. >> decades. that now use these. have tried everything to quit. have used these things and have quit. and they still will use the e-cigarettes once in a while. the ones that have explained said it doesn't have all of the stuff. >> it doesn't have the tar. >> yeah. they say -- the nicotine through a vapor but even that, it's easier for me sort of to wean myself off. >> essentially the equivalent of the nicotine patch or gum in a different form weaning your way

off. >> the big question is -- >> going through that repetitive motion that people need to go through. >> do you ban e-cigarettes indoors and what about the vapor and all that, is that annoying to other people and i don't know the answer. a lot of questions about this. >> it's not -- second-hand vapor. >> we don't know. we don't know. >> that's not -- >> 70 years ago we are having this conversation and no problem with second-hand smoke and they are advertising -- who knows. >> i am astounded people smokeing in a car with the window up. you're going all in! >> i don't get it at this point with all that we know. >> especially young people. we were talking about pot earlier. that's one thing, right? all right. and recreational use of that even though i'm on the legalization.

>> but not when you're driving. >> i have a lot of concerns about pot too. man, if you were young and you decide to take up cigarettes, seriously, how stupid can you be? it's just insanity! >> that's what teenagers are, right? all right. >> jim, the latest wave of subpoenas out in new jersey trying to get to the bottom of the george washington bridge scandal. a source tells nbc news among those subpoenaed, governor christie's re-election campaign organization, christie spent yesterday visiting with hurricane sandy victims to announce 800 million dollars in federal housing recovery funds have been handed out. the event was scrubbed last week as the scandal turned into a full boil. the governor closed his speech with a nod to the growing head winds in trenton. >> no one, i can assure you, ever told me or anybody on my team that it's going to be easy.

hadn't been up to this point and there is all kinds of challenges as you know. come every day out of nowhere to test you, but i want to assure the people of new jersey of one thing. i was born here. i was raised here. i'm raising my family here. and this is why i intend to spend the rest of my life. and whatever tests they put in front of me, i will meet those tests because i'm doing it on your behalf. so thank you all very much. >> so now we're also getting word from politico, jim, that i don't like this story actually. >> you don't have to like it. i like this story. >> i love this story. >> you're hateful! hold on a second. we have guys that don't know what the story is.

the story is -- go. >> the story is mitt romney, the people who work for him and who raised money for mitt romney are pretty gleeful watching what is happening with chris christie. they are seeing a manifestation of what they saw, his arrogance when they dealt with him at the acceptance speech. he does a speech that is all about him in the final weeks of the campaign goes and embraces the president and didn't care what the romney folks were saying, hey, can you keep some distance so it doesn't backfire against us in the presidential campaign. they are looking, ha, you're getting your come uppings and arrogance when you didn't want to help us. i do i think it speaks to what a lot of republicans think about him and his people. and it's one of the reasons you don't see a lot of people out there forcefully defending chris christie. i think that type of human drama, that type of intrigue goes a long way in talking about his predicament.

he probably will be fine in the long term if nothing else comes out but a report out this morning six times as many people were commenting on facebook about this than they were about the steroid scandal or about justin bieber or any other pop culture thing. people are paying attention to this. he is a celebrity. he made himself a celebrity. >> we got somebody on the other side of the table, obviously, that -- you've done, john, extensive reporting on this clash between the romney camp and christie camp, and specifically the vetting process that the romney people went through and the information they couldn't get from chris christie, suggestions from a lot of people reading that these sort of issues would rise as we move closer to 2016 and we have something again that probably makes those romney people go, well, we think there is a lot more of that out there. >> also that this is just the kind of thing they were worried about. not this thing specifically. they didn't know about this but

the reason mitt romney didn't put chris christie on the ticket to a large extent was he was afraid of having surprises that would come up in the course of the general election that were of this nature. if you think back even further than that. >> when you say of this nature? >> that there was -- >> jersey? >> yes. yes. and plays by his own rules and not always colored within the lines. to go to jim's point about arrogance. you step back to the -- much earlier in the campaign and the thing was really echoes in the bridge scandal is when, you know, mitt romney went down to see chris christie in the governor's mansion and asked him for his support and chris christie was not yet ready to endorse him and christie said you can't now fund-raise new jersey until i've made up my mind and that was a conversation that the governor romney walked away feeling like he was in a seat from the "sopranos." he couldn't believe it. >> wait. did chris christie told mitt romney he couldn't fund-raise in his state? >> yes.

in march of 2011. >> hold on! what did mitt romney say back to chris christie? >> they got in a bit of a squabble about it. it was a private conversation at the governor's mansion. he went back to boston and said, i can't believe. this is ridiculous. most of the romney campaign thought it was completely ridiculous. then they all decided to demand on the basis in the end they would need him and want his support and it was better to back off. >> if somebody told me that, i'm sure you're the same way, howard, i would hold a fund-raiser in that state that night! i'm serious! that is unbelievable. >> i would encourage to pick up the heilemann print book and read the chapter on chris christie. i thought far and away the best chapter in that entire book. it tells you -- put the scandal aside. read that chapter and the guy has a lot more trouble ahead than just this one episode. there is a reason they didn't want to go through the vetting. a reason he didn't end up -- it

doesn't mean he can't be the presidential candidate and doesn't mean he is not popular but look at the concerns that they came up. >> the romney people? >> you have the exclusive vetting memo and had the entire thing. just go read it and that gives every single reporter the road map. you better ask questions about these seven things when you run for president. now when they go and look at those seven things, you don't think they will be looked at differently in light of this? even if this becomes nothing else? is forever going to cover. look at him on the campaign trail. i think we do look at him differently. he's a different guy. like the stuff before -- the toughness, the certainty. now it comes off as is it arrogance? is it defensiveness? i think people -- that happens in politics and why this could have an effect more broadly. not disqualifying but -- >> i think what you said is absolutely right on. i think that is -- that's the question is, you know, will this impact him down the road. the reason i didn't like the

story at the top is because a campaign that has snickering about someone else's bad fortune, i don't know. it's like the worst thing about what is going on in the republican party right now. they all want to kill each other. >> i'll just give credit. >> nobody jumped. >> give credit to poe lit -- politico and your e book. spencer wick the finance chairman of the romney campaign quoted in the e book saying in governor runs in 2016 i will run a superpact to try to defeat him. that was only a few weeks after the campaign was over and romney's finance director taking that shot. i believe that was a quote from a meeting. that gives you a sense of how much animus there was at the end of that campaign and continuing until today. >> we are way, way over. i'm sorry. we are talking about this. we got to talk about a guy who has actually been through this up close and personal. how did you get past the animus

that you may have felt towards some of your opponents in 2004 to become a team player and actually run the democratic party and why do you think it's so hard right now for chris christie and mitt romney? >> christie is a different mind. romney lost the presidency and a -- losing the primary was no fun but losing the presidency when you think you're going to win and told by your pollsters you're going to win and a lot of bitserness that has nothing to do with chris christie. secondly, what christie is facing is really interesting because he is who he is and he is not going to change. he's a very appealing character to people who want something done in washington and they are not so particular about their freedoms and the amendments that protect people against people like chris christie when he gets into authority. >> you mean like barack obama and national security? >> no. i'm talking about a hard-fisted guy who says get out of my way, in your face all the time.

there's a market for people like that. he has converted that from a positive to a negative in this way. if you're a hard-fisted guy that is taking on maybe the unions or maybe the press or somebody, your people love you. if you're a hard-fisted guy that kicks your own voters in the butt because they didn't vote for you, that turns you from a hard-fisted guy to a bully and that is his problem. whether this bridge thing turns out to be anything serious or not, that is the difference. >> that is the difference. >> jim, stay with us. coming up, "morning joe's" can't miss predictions for this week's nfl championship games. we will be right back. (vo) you are a business pro.

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joe." you know, there are a lot of people all over and i understand there is a tremendous responsibility that we have, mika, that when we make our picks on nfl games, especially in the playoffs, it kind of moves the markets. >> it does. >> we are sort of like greenspan and we set the agenda because we always get it right and we will do it again, all right? >> i'm ready. >> if you're under 18, kids, i ask you, please do not use your parents credit card. >> i did so well last time. >> i'm going to pick first.

are you ready to write this down? i went 1 for 3 the first week. 1 for 4, howard. the first game we got the broncos playing, mika. i got to say, the broncos up against the patriots, this is a great game. i kind of like the patriots. i love belichick but i'm going with the broncos. >> okay. >> john heilemann, what about you? >> it's an incredibly close game. i cannot, in my heart bring myself to ever bet against bill belichick and tom brady. i just can't so i'm with the pats in this game even though they are on the road. >> i hope they win but i don't think they will. >> i don't remember the state motto but i remember i better vote for the pats in this one very good. >> vandehei? >> new england is way too old -- or too young and injured and broncos will crush them by 20 points. >> crush? >> yes. broncos are a much better football team and better wide receiving corps and i think a better quarterback and this

season a much better quarterback even than brady which is hard to say. >> i think we all agree if the broncos win this will be belichick and brady's greatest achievement ever because brady doesn't have wide receivers. >> he has nobody. >> that can catch the ball. >> they have a good running game. they have two running backs, 775 yards each running but i has nothing else. >> they don't have a great team but there they are, back in the championship game. >> it's extraordinary. mika? >> broncos. peyton manning 7-1 at home. >> are they? >> yeah. >> that is pretty amazing! >> nice. way to bust out the stats! >> later at 60:30, the 49ers against the seahawks. i think people think the seahawks are the better team in the nfl but i think the 49ers are hot. i think they are are heading back to the super bowl. what do you think, john? >> hawks at home. >> a smart. >> hawks defense last week was unbelievable. again, i think the hawks will do

it. >> yeah. easement even this hopelessly optimistic cheesehead can't pick the packers in this situation. san francisco is, i think, the better football team. >> do you really? >> they have a better wide receiving corps and i think equal defense. i don't think they can stop that receiving corps. people forget that a lot of these guys had been injured. crabtree playing at the top of his game. may have the best hands in football and a great tight end. >> mika? >> 49ers. too many weapons? what? what? >> what are you talking about? >> i'm picking yours. broncos and did you pick the 49ers? >> i picked the 49ers. >> oh, yes, absolutely. >> why the 49ers? >> too many weapons. >> too many weapons. >> too many weapons. >> very good. what is coming up on tomorrow's show, mika? on monday's show. it's friday. you get to relax. >> i want to do this tomorrow! i want to do this seven times a week. i don't have time to talk during the week. >> you can talk all day tomorrow, joe. >> just talk to your children.

>> okay. >> and the colonel. >> and the colonel. >> and the cat. dogs. >> i love the colonel. i rescued a dog yesterday. >> who? >> spice. >> what is spice? >> a jack russell. >> a terrier? >> there he is. isn't he cute? that is the most beautiful dog you've seen. >> i think he has the mange! >> he is so cute and we all sleep together. >> what did do you? >> we fell asleep. it was a long day. >> they are very smart dogs. >> wonderful. we have three rescues. >> do you? >> i'm going to become -- >> you are one of those people. >> i am one of those people! >> who knew? >> yeah. >> weg be right back with much more "morning joe." ♪

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vice president biden, look at that beautiful shot. is renew ago push to drawn down nearly you will u.s. troops from afghanistan by the end of the year. "wall street journal" reports biden plan would leave a residual force smaller than people want in the theater. vice president biden leaving 2,000 to 3,000 troops and some americans want to triple that number. the u.s. relationship with afghan president hamid karzai is deteriorating over his refusingal to sign a security agreement that stretches beyond the end of the year. >> joe biden was loyal to the president. he kept his reservations about the afghan surge in 2009 to himself. we personally knew that he had real interns about it. we certainly all voiced those

concerns here repeatedly that we thought it was a terrible mistake because we didn't have a partner in afghanistan worthy of more than american lives being risked over there. but it sounds like joe biden this time, this time, is pushing hard and let his concerns be known. >> and coming up, the founder and ceo -- >> by the way, i think he was right. >> yeah. >> in 2009. some have suggested he has always been wrong. i think he was right in 2009 and i think it has proven him to be right. coming up the founder and ceo of iraq and veterans of america, paul rykoff will join us. much more "morning joe" in a moment. bob will retire when he', which would be fine if bob were a vampire. but he's not. ♪ he's an architect with two kids and a mortgage. luckily, he found someone who gave him a fresh perspective on his portfolio. and with some planning and effort,

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come on! come on! just stop. oh, thank god he is here! coming up at the top of the howard, harold ford jr. joins the conversation and "the washington post" eugene robinson. david gregory as well. "morning joe" will be back in a moment. when i first started shopping for a hybrid... i didn't even look at anything else. i just assumed you went and bought a prius. so this time around we were able to do some research and we ended up getting a ford... which we love. it's been a wonderful switch. it has everything that you could want in a car. it's the most fun to drive... because it's the most hi tech inside... i think this c-max can run circles around the prius... the biggest difference would definitely be

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe." look at the sun coming up over new york city. john heilemann and jon meacham still with us. joining the table is visiting professor at nyu and former democratic congressman and new daddy showing gorgeous pictures of his daughter, she is so cute! harold ford jr. >> adorable. >> in washington, "the washington post" columnist and editor, eugene robinson. >> he is adorable too. >> he is gene, gene, the dancing machine. also moderator of "meet the press" is david gregory. >> not a dancing machine. >> but david gregory is. >> jackson five the dancing machine. >> gene gene, the dancing

machine. mika looked confused. we were all watching "the gong show" in mid-70s, she was reading. >> original middle english. >> the original middle english. >> is there another guy? great group. the latest wave of subpoenas is out in new jersey getting to the bottom of the george washington bridge scandal. a source tells nbc news some in governor christie's re-election campaign were among these subpoenaed and christie spent yesterday visiting with hurricane sandy victims announcing that 800 million,000 in recovery funds has been handed out. the event was scrubbed last week as the scandal turned for a full boil. the governor ended his speech with a growing nod to the trenton head winds. >> no one, i can assure you, ever told me or anybody on my team that it was going to be easy. hadn't been up to this point and there is all kinds of challenges

as you know. come every day out of nowhere to test you, but i want to assure the people of new jersey of one thing. i was born here. i was raised here. i'm raising my family here. and this is where i intend to spend the rest of my life and whatever tests they put in front of me, i will meet those tests because i'm doing it on your behalf. >> okay. so peggy noonan writes this in "wall street journal." mr. christie is a great talent, a political figure of real and natural gifts. what has jeopardized his position is not that he is gruff in your face insistent to bully. it's that he has been selfish. in 2012, he was given a star role a keynote speaker at the gop national convention. his speech was funny and ran about 2,340 words but it took around 2,000 of them before he

got to a guy named romney. he made a speech about himself. that wasn't a major sin. it's only politics. not policy. but it fit in with his embrace of mr. obama in the days before the 2012 election. any governor would show strategic warmth for a president in charge of ladling out federal money after a disaster but jersey was about to reelect president obama by nearly 18 points and mr. christie wanted to win over democrats when he ran the next year. he was already going to win big but he had to win bigger. had to have more. again, not much of a sin but when bridgegate came, it seemed to fit the pattern. whoever made the call selfishness is at the heart of the scandal. >> gene, it's amazing how -- and we have been, obviously, when i say that, i don't want anybody to misunderstand it. i was about to say amazing what closing a few lanes on a bridge

can do to scramble a national outlook. it was a terrible thing that happened and one woman may have died because of it. the human impact on that town, the community and the ems providers was tremendous, but it is remarkable the change of outlook that republicans have had quietly behind the scenes and one of the national media figures over this scandal, whether it's chris christie scandal or his aide's scandal. it's changing everything by the day. i don't think you can misstate that. >> i think that is absolutely true, joe. i think it shows that this sort of wide republican support of potentially for christie in 2016 was pretty thin. really, really wide and kind of a across the country, people were willing to give him a look and i think still are willing to give him a look. this bully thing and peggy calls it selfishness and a way to look at it too. i think it's a serious thing.

this comes across as a lot of people -- to a lot of people as abuse of power what he did there. and that is kind of tough to really invest in a candidate who could potentially let you down with more stuff like this as the election approaches. >> i'm not sure i completely take on peggy's column. i'm not sure if you can figure out the adjective. i think a lot of people were pumping him with a lot of hope and desire that he run and that definitely got to him. you can see him getting more excited about it over the years and who wouldn't if politics is in your blood and if it's something you might want to do. having said, i'm not going to defend him too much because, david gregory, personally, i feel the reaction on some republicans, which has been very negative, is glee because he was getting so much money thrown his way and so many backers were quietly speaking to him about potentially running for president that they are happy is

potentially maybe going to be out of their way. jealousy. >> when joe says scramble, that is right. it has ended his prospects by any means but scrambled the picture a little bit. i think a lot of republicans were gleeful and a lot of these are opponents who don't want to believe that christie's combination of what works for him as a politician is ultimately what can work for the republican party. i mean, republicans tend to be hierarchical and order about who is next up. we have seen that recently. mitt romney was considered next up in the line and ultimately got the nomination. even though you have the tea party has raise the its head in the republican circles but a lot of people say, wait a minute, christie is getting way too much attention. ideologically he is not in line with the party we might like and he gets a lot of national media attention. and i think there's a lot of people who resented how early he peaked and his opponents say,

why are we going buying this? this is basically another rudy giuliani which is code for northeastern moderate who really can't play as big as a lot of people think that he can play. >> and also on the rudy front, you're hearing this critique surrounded by, you know, guys group that was with him when he was a prosecutor and sort of just moved through, you know, not a lot of outsiders that can keep them honest. harold, this doesn't seem to be going away. it's not because of investigations. do you sense a pretty significant impact in the long run, regardless of how the investigation turns out? >> if the investigation turns out -- you all have said it best. the investigation reveals there is something he said that is not true and, at this point, doesn't

really matter if it's small or big he didn't tell the truth on. i think he is damaged in a big, big way, perhaps each in new jersey and he has had to deal with that. if it turns out everything he said was accurate, he'll may get through this, but i do think the presidential thing has been hurt a bit. he has to appeal to activists and donors but how do you deal with activists and donorses in north carolina and other states and that is unclear to see how that may happen. watching him yesterday, i never seen him talk like that yesterday. all of the pictures, the public presentations of chris christie. he never is the victim. he is always taking people on behalf of people. for the first time, he was almost like hiding behind people saying i'm doing this for the people. so, you know, when you're under siege, those things happen, but if nothing else comes out, i think he survives it but who knows. you got 20 people now who are going to talk. be interesting to see what they say. >> you can't downplay the importance of the investigations, though, in this sense. what chris christie expected to do in the course of this year, in the course of 2013 -- 2014 was to capitalize on his big

re-election victory and get ready to run for president while running the state. two big jobs. run the rga and run the state of new jersey and get ready to run for president. now in a very tight time frame and packed schedule he has to confront all of this other stuff that is happening. the multiple investigations on this subject, other investigations that are are you blossoming and the swarm of national, local media looking for other stories. a massive distraction. i would say the biggest scramble to your point, joe, is that the question is now not -- the primary question for him now is not how does it affect his presidential prospects. his goal right now is to hold on to his job and there are people who are going to spend the next six to nine months trying to figure out a way to make the scandal damage enough to have him have to resign and what his enemies are focused on and what he has to be defending. he never thought he was going to have to defend his job over the course of this year.

>> you're right. he benefited for four and a half years or so from being the governor of the state in this media market. >> yes. >> and now paying a price for it. and if he had been the blunt talking governor of oregon, none of this -- and he closed down puget sound or whatever it would be, nobody would be talking about it. >> he would be a really great quarterback that played for the seattle seahawks. barnicle said it's a shame. he plays football in beijing. >> if only he could be secretary of the interior would that be interesting. you're in this zone. you're in this hot house. he rose on it and now he is getting clobbered by it. >> here is the problem. david, jump in. if these documents reveal nothing, it's still technical. i don't think there is going to be anybody -- >> how did the guy on the staff

do this? that ran the republican party of new jersey, how did your assistant chief of staff or whoever it was, how did they do this? how does this stuff happen and how is it so sloppy and so bush league and so small that that is happening underneath your nose? even if you get through this investigation, chris that toll to deal with that. i think he can deal with that but, man, it's going to put a lot of donors back on their heels and you're right. 2014 doesn't look like 2014 looked three weeks ago for chris christie. >> no question about it. these are leadership questions, you know? i mean, it's not -- we all know if he is lying and that is proven and that is its own thing. what if it goes in different directions and it's hard to follow? you're still left with this environment question which this was his top staff people making a decision like this. did they do it because they thaw the boss would disapprove or thought he would approve? when you're running a staff like

this, among people who have served with you for a long time, then it becomes a question -- how would you handle it running the federal government? you know, people like to make comparisons to obama and the irs. take health care, take george bush's manager of the iraq war. management and leadership is often what is test and evaluated, especially on the campaign trail, and here is an example of, well, even if this was a rogue operation, how did that spring up under your feet? >> that is a question. hey, gene, we have some other news to talk about today. the president is going to be talking about possible changes with the nsa. >> big speech. >> yeah. big speech on how nsa is going to collect data. there is going to be a calling, i guess, for public advocate -- >> privacy advocate. he is expected to call for that and are you before the controversial fisa court and ingredient protection from people who live outside the united states.

he is going to ask that bulk data not scored by the government and calling for a judicial finding every time the database is searched. some, obviously, in the national security fear believe that would be too laborious. gene, what is your take on this president that ran against bush/cheney policies and got elected and got the briefing and expanded them and now having to figure out how to balance national security versus the needs and desires of his own political base? >> well, you know, a sense in which -- most presidents, i probably -- probably all presidents find themselves kind of caught between what the intelligence guys say you need to do and perhaps the president's own instincts. but none quite as much as this president, i think. it's interesting the sort of weird coalition that is very upset about the nsa spying, liberal democrats and conservative republicans who

feel most strongly about this. and i frankly don't think they are -- i know they are not going to be entirely satisfied by the president's speech. i don't think they are going to be much satisfied unless he were to end bulk collection of data, for example. and i don't think he is going to do that. one thing, i think, really ought to be in his speech and i'm not sure it will be, is, you know, we are not allowed to know how the fisa court interprets our laws and that, to me, is just outrageous and should be outrageous for a president who is a constitutional law professor. ignorance of the law is no defense but we can't get beyond that ignorance because we don't know what those court decisions say. and i would love to hear the president say that, at a minimum, we need to know when the fisa court has reinterpreted the fourth amendment and the patriot act, so we know what our law says. >> david, this is happened time and time again, whether you're

talking about nsa data collection, whether you're talking about the drone program or gitmo. this president has found himself in a very uncomfortable position saying one thing as a candidate and the next doubling down on policies as president and commander in chief. >> he became president and that is what happened to him. >> exactly! that was a great tragedy event, the campaign that actually worked. he became president and had to actually protect americans. >> but to be fair to all presidents, republicans and democrats, i think if this gates memoir sheds light on something we have to remember how political the dialogue is that people who have become presidents up until now, they do think about the national interests. they think about the right thing to do and they think about all of the threats that the country faces and in this case, president obama, you know, made decisions about war that ran against his political interests and against his political staff and the gates book points that

out and george bush made decisions like this that went against the military as well surging up forces in iraq. so i think one of the things the president is going to do today and i think it's appropriate, is sort of call out congress and say, okay, we have this national debate now, whether he acknowledges it's because of the leaks by edward snowden or not, now congress has to be able in a fully transparent way to take a stand where we should be on these balancing freedoms and risks which is what the president has to do and any president has to do. now congress has to really stand up and let its voice be heard as politically treacherous that may be. >> harold, weigh in. i jo jon meacham will give us another reference. harold, let's start with you. i got another glaring example of this, of president bush campaigned. i remember jim laird asked him a question about foreign policy. he talked about having a limited

conservative with a small c foreign policy was wasn't engaged in nation building and smithsonian type policy and within four years he was delivering the most sith sewnian inspired nation building tyranny across the globe second inaugural speech that i have ever heard. people run for elections and then things change. >> gregory said it best, he came president and you think differently. i take the devil's advocate on what the other side. i hope we don't go overboard. before september 11th there were grave concerns and were in the congress and people were worried we were not taking strong enough steps. they were not leaning forward and asserting themselves and now we are. should we look at this and not going overboard? absolutely. i think what concerns me in the

papers asking for permission every time. i would hope we would not wait for a privacy advocate whether that is right thing to do. we have to be careful on that front. i agree with david. congress has to lean forward and act. the president should not be ashamed of anything he has done. he has used drones and saved american lives and we will killed more terrorists on his watch than we did the last eight years and not blaming anybody, but he should be be proud of this. he should be proud of that. >> can i answer -- can i explain why he is not proud of that? >> why is he not proud of that? >> because he called george bush and dick cheney terrible people who were immoral and anti-american and tore away at the very fabric of great american values. >> after killing terrorists. >> that president obama has drubleed down on. it's not easy for him to say i'm proud of doing all of these things and see the speech he

gave from 2006 to 2008. >> even if he does not brag about this, i'm glad he is doing it and republicans and democrats alike who are concerned he might not lean forward right. i give him credit for and i hope he doesn't back down and even some of my own party and some in the republican party want something different. >> i think what he is asking in the press conference today is -- >> i think polk is a little too recent. i want to go farther back. >> john quincy adams. >> still. we are still waiting for the documents on quincy. the first president who rejected the ideology or moved beyond the ideology on which he had run is the first time we had a transfer of party between parties which is jefferson. he exceeds two federalists and he doubles size of the country with the stroke of a pen which with john adams or george washington had done it, a attack

point, thomas jefferson's head would have exploded. >> he would have passed out. which, by the way -- exactly. which, by the way. >> well done, jon. >> no. that is extraordinarily relevant to today because barack obama has been able to do things with a drone policy and with nsa and collecting data on reporters that would have gotten george w. bush impeached. >> no doubt about it. >> remember, republicans also reared back against republicans, right, jon? after he had shrunk a government so much they felt the government wasn't adequately building on itself and not able to protect itself. >> gene? >> i don't know if that is relevant but i wanted to talk about history! >> david gregory, do you like the broncos? >> gene? >> don't you remember the gregory interview with jefferson? >> i like brady. i think brady is going to win. >> you're going with brady? >> i got to go with brady. i think in a big game, i go with

brady. >> david gregory, brady or manning? >> yeah, i go with pat. i don't bet against brady. i go niners as well. >> okay. >> manning. >> aren't you concerned sometimes that meacham is ratings deaf? >> actually, that is like being concerned about death. >> harold, stay with us. >> it's a part of life. >> meacham, if you have to. david gregory, thank you. we will be watching sunday's "meet the press." what is the future? i love it. gene, thank you as well. we will be reading your column in this morning's "the washington post." >> i can't wait for that. that is going to be great. >> up next, congressman keith ellison is standing by and he says it's time for republicans who remember ice eiseyeisenhowe quote, step up. you're watching "morning joe."

we will be right back. we know we're not the center of your life, but we'll do our best to help you connect to what is.

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♪ 26 past the hour. here with us now is democratic representative from minnesota, congressman keith ellison who is the author of the new book "my country tis of thee my faith my family our future. >>." congressman, great to have you here. >> congratulations on the book. >> thank you so much. >> let's talk about your faith first. you're the first muslim elected to congress. actually you're from a district that is 1% muslim. you wrote the book that you didn't wear it on your sleeve a whole lot, but you've learned in time that you've needed to step out of your comfort zone. talk about that journey. >> well, you know, it's interesting. i was elected a few years after 9/11 and, of course, this is a traumatic, perhaps one of the most traumatic events in american history, and americans

didn't know about islamists. what they knew, frankly, wasn't that good. to a large extent, you know, even though i was never like a religious leader or anything, i was just one of the guys going to the mosque every friday and practicing my faith, it became important for me to talk about it so that other americans could say, okay, this is a faith that regular people, real people practice. >> you converted. when did you convert? >> 19 years old. i was going to wayne state university in detroit. >> what moved you? >> you know, i remember being invited for the first time. a friend and mine was doing calculus prep. >> i actually found the lord halfway through that. >> something between the squiggly lines, right? >> the lord spoke to me and said, leave this at once! devil be gone. i'm sorry, go ahead. >> he picked up and left. he went to the friday prayer and

i just said, where are you going? he told me i'm going to prayer, come on along so i went. i was impressed by just the diversity in the room and the very affirmative embrace of the inclusion of all humanity. >> what moved you about islam specifically to divert from being a catholic? it's, obviously, a bold move at 19. what was it about the faith itself that moved you? >> well, part of it is what i didn't know about theologyism when i went to a catholic. the other part is the inclusion, the stories about how we could -- in islam, we affirmatively stand against racial division and embrace racial inclusion. so some of these stories, i thought, were really intriguing. plus, you know, a colonel of all faiths that faith should be a bridge, not a wall. it should unite you and not

separate you and divide you. >> what did your family think? >> i talk about it in the book. my mother is from louisiana and she is into food. food is love and love is food and it was thanksgiving and she said come get some of this ham, honey, you know? and i said, something i got to tell you, mom. >> oh, lord! >> because in islam, we don't eat pork. i said i wasn't going to have any. it was sort of a thing, you know? >> it was sort of a thing! wait. we all have things at thanksgiving dinner! >> that is a thing. >> that is a big one. >> that is a big one in itself. >> my mom was very he v -- you know, she embraced my decision. my brother is a baptist minister. when i was sworn in on jefferson's caron, he today there and we stood there shoulder-to-shoulder. >> how do you talk to people --

you must have constituents. you must have people who say what is it with the islamic world and why does such a fundamental threat to our national security seem to come disproportionately from that world of faith? >> you know what? what i tell them, it's not about the faith. what it's really about is in some parts, particularly in the arab world, there has been, quite frankly, a lack of democracy. we just saw the arab spring ripen into the arab winter and in egypt we don't know what is going to happen in syria, what is going to happen there. it's really not the faith. what it is is, you know, people who don't want to yield power to the vast majority and people are struggling over there. people struggle over that all over this world. we struggled over it here, which is why i named the book, "my country 'tis of thee." here in the united states we are struggling with a greater amount of inclusion in democracy. when you look at income and

equality, this is a real challenge. i tell people it's not the faith. it's the political power arrangements in that country and there is a lot of islamic democracies and turkey being one. there are what we conceive of in the islamic world. >> great book. >> thank you. >> one second on politics. minimum wages. is there room for a deal in the congress that says perhaps republicans may want to keystone pipeline and may want some small business tax cuts? could you see that democrats agreeing to something like that in exchange for an increase in the minimum wage? >> you know what? i could see a bargain. i really do. i don't know what the elements of it would be. >> it's open for compromise? >> right. keystone is very tough for me but other things that -- i will boost job growth and get people working again which is what democrats and republicans both say we want. i think is there a deal there to be had because, you know, in new

jersey, christie won by 60%, but the minimum wage was on the ballot. it would not by 61%. so this is popular. >> right. >> both republicans and democrats understand that if poor people don't have any money, they are not spending no money and then the business people aren't making any money, so it's important that we really address this issue of stagnant low wages. >> i could not agree more. the book is "my country 'tis of thee." you can read an excerpt at msnbc. >> what was your grade in calculus? >> i think i got a b in there. >> "usa today" says up to 48,000 afghan and iraq war veterans are now homeless. we are going to talk to one of our troop's leading advocates, paul rykoff next on "morning joe." passenger: road trip buddy. let's put some music on.

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welcome back to welcome. paul rykoff is with us so many things to talk about. the first thing we need to get this off -- i want to get this off my chest and i'm sorry, but i resent you saying i'm crazy for picking the 49ers. >> absolutely. seahawks have lost once at home

in two years and their offensive line is incredible and marshawn lynch is a beast and the defense is off the charts. >> you say they are the most complete nfl team you've seen in five years? >> i think it is. they are rolling. they don't lose at home. >> what about broncos and patriots? >> that is is trickier. i go with broncos because they are playing at home but bill belichick is making something out of nothing this year. >> what brady and belichick have done with the pats is unbelievable. >> when was the last time you felt comfortable betting against the patriots? >> when they played the giants which is pretty often and i'm a giants fan and it works for me. >> a terrible reminder this morning of the toll, not only of war, but also the toll when our veterans come home. the "usa today" up to 50,000 people, veterans homeless this year. talk about just how bad the situation is, paul. >> it's bad. now we can quantify it and see what that means in human terms. homelessness is always a big problem.

>> how does this happen? >> a complication of a number of factors but ten years of war. you've got a rough economy. you've got folks who are coming home to government system that is generally unprepared. the private sector is -- good news we are making progress. v.a. is good on this. phoenix i think they can solve homelessness. they have a housing first model that seems to be working and a real national effort pulling communities together and i think we can really make some movement on that in the next couple of years. >> going are the v.a. in the backlog? >> long way to go. there has been improvement and they are making headway and leaned in on it and put mandatory overtime in place. you guys and others have been finally covering. . at the end of the day backlog is down but 400,000 people are still stuck in it. they pulled it maybe a quarter of the way out of the ditch and we have a ways to go and need to keep on them.

our goal is no one is caught in the bill clinton log and 400,000 people now and way too high. >> talk about the causes and how to fix the problem. bob gates on tv the other night asked about the problems with the v.a. he said they are all good people and they care about the vets and want to get things done. the bureaucracy there is bad but that is not the problem according to gates. he says the way the system has been constructed is basically changing anything in the v.a. requires an act of congress because congress sticks its nose in. keep what is most of the responsibility actually up on capitol hill rather than with the v.a. of bureaucracy. does that ring true to you? >> plenty of blame to go around. he didn't talk about the department of defense because they all have to work together. all of the government agencies have to share information in order to get a claim, for example, a disability claim processed. for some reason the entire federal government can't work together. this is not hard to do. look what the nsa has been able to do, right? they can pull information together in a focused way and why can't we do the same thing and take care of our veterans.

>> nsa can be with technology. >> we are not trying to put a man on the moon but getting people's disability paper work processed and should be something this country can get done. >> harold had the same experience with me. some agencies that were very efficient when we were in congress and some that were absolute nightmares and some of the ones you think would be inefficient were pretty darn efficient when you called them up' there was a problem. the v.a. was the absolute worst. i remember talking to the president's people and they were pitching obamacare before it was about to go live and talking about how great the rollout would be. i said here is a deal. i'm not a big fan of the program about if you guys can do this can you transform the way things work, for instance, i said the v.a. >> v.a. could be an example how government can work and an example in the backlog situation how the government doesn't work. they have to say customer service focused and quality at the v.a. is good and we encourage people to go to the v.a. but at the same time, the

bureaucracy is too much. >> why? >> the wait is too long. >> a funding issue. >> no. it's not a funding issue and more than adequate funding more than a decade. it's a leadership andship a bureaucracy and accountability issue. people don't live where they used to when they came home. they have to focus on a younger generation and focus on women. you got an entire bureaucracy that kind of got caught flat-footed and hasn't been forced to update in 30 years. >> the graphics has changed? >> injuries have changed and people didn't survive before and they have to transform like any other business. boar borders has to turn into amazon. >> the suicide rates among vets way up and 44% the last three years. what explains that? >> it's a failure of the entire system. stigma a huge problem. we found out this week the number for young vets have gone up about 40%. now they don't even really have good data, okay?

they don't have a full comprehensive looking. >> 44% for males in the past three years. >> it's our number one issue. we haven't had data. we saw it in the community and no 0 now know it for sure and a problem for all generations and losing 22 veterans a day and this is the number one issue going into next year. >> quickly, we have to go. the government spends 4 trillion a year and decide the only way to make up a shortfall in veteran is go after veterans military retirees pension. >> they decided to cut the retiree's pension by 40%. they need to repel it immediately. the #we use is keep your promise. need everybody in america to focus on it and need the president to respond and go to our website and join the fight but we need to fix this immediately. >> keep your promise is the thing.

everybody salutes when they go off to war, members of congress always have and they have done this for years. >> folks watching right now in afghanistan. >> military health care. benefits and military retiree benefits. i don't want somebody to tell me it's a fiscal issue if the promise has been explicitly made to an 18-year-old kids who goes into a recruitment center and is told you're going to see the world and it's going to be great and exciting and plus you get these benefits and then congress pulls the rug out. >> congress has to come together. right now folks are watching your show in afghanistan and heard congress is cutting their benefits. congress has got to fix it. >> paul, come back more often. we love having you here. a special series on msnbc. "taking the hill" is returning sunday, january 26th, at 1:00 p.m. former congressman and iraq war veteran patrick murphy will host a one-hour conversation about

the topic issues facing the veterans. coming up, marry lou hilu h will join us. [ male announcer ] this is the story of the dusty basement at 1406 35th street the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall off roble avenue. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more.

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i! >> no, don't put two! >> oh, they mean color, don't they? mental illness or gnnarcotic addiction? >> that is a tough choice. >> that's it. you're ready for the test! >> i thought this was the test! >> ppsst! >> what does he know like me?

>> slow down! >> okay. ♪ >> what? what was it? >> like. >> slow down! >> okay. wha the shrash. >> remember when television was really good? yes! a scene from the classic tv comedy taxi and joining us now actress may lou henner a tireless advocate for healthier eating often taking her cause to capitol hill. thomas roberts is joining the table. he is obsessed with tax and thinks is more obsessed with "taxi" than i am. >> may lyou have so much in com >> so many things. we are both polish and we have

strong mothers and have children and pay attention to what our kids are doing in a big way. no such thing as obsession that makes you stronger andexactly. the food issues. >> food issues especially, i know. >> we have a generation that's just sick in the head and the body. >> i tell you something, there's a tsunami of health going on right now, and the kids, some of the kids are getting healthier, because they want -- they want the answers. i see younger people in health food stores -- i've been doing this a long time -- this year will be my health birthday, august 15th, 1979, i consider my health birthday, so almost 35 years ago, when i gave up dairy products. but i feel like the tsunami of health happening and congress has to keep up with it. >> you've been an advocate, obviously, pushing -- >> a long time. >> talk about the total health makeover, you've written about it. >> yeah, i've written nine books. >> right. you're a prolific writer. >> thank you. you know, i don't sleep much.

but i feel like what happens is that, you know, you have to -- you have to, like, look at what you're eating every single day. if you can't read it, you can't eat it. you have to re-examine your relationship with some of the health robbers that people think are the healthy foods like sugar, meat, dairy. the dairy products we're pumping our kids with steroids, hormones, what we're putting into the cowing, chickens, and when they can't sit still in school, we say they have a.d.d. and adhd, and it's the chemistries in their bodies that can't handle it. >> is that what you talk -- >> well, i'm struggling with that issue with one of my kids, because it's a fine balance, and it's very hard. >> you have -- we have a problem in this country. we have a few problems. one of the problems is definitely we're paying more attention to calories than we are to quality of food. >> exactly. >> if you improve the quality of the food, the quantity takes care of itself. because we are stuffing our faces, but we're starving our bodies, and there's no nutrients, and because people get into this calorie thing,

they get into that head rather than -- >> ask her about pretend -- >> i want to talk to you, you came from the hill, fresh off of congress. and veggie caucus. >> it started a year ago, all like-minded people in washington who are really interested in improving their health and talking especially about a plant-based diet. whether you become totally vegan or not, it doesn't matter. it's really about introducing more plant-based foods into your diet. ten years ago, i was one of 25 people who spoke on behalf of the dietary guidelines. this year, i was one of 50. you get three minutes apiece to talk about what you feel passionate about and how you think i dietary guidelines could be improved. so we're moving slowly but surely until right direction. >> i won't ask you about food right now. i'll ask about your entertainment career. you have a movie in june. >> yes, "june in january." on this saturday. it's on tomorrow. >> what's that about? >> a hallmark movie, "june in january," and

monster-in-law. i take over my daughter-in-law's wedding, she only has three weeks to plan it, and i take over, including having vegan food at her wedding. >> oh, no! >> and that was written in the script. >> and really quick, tell your best katie kaufmann story. >> well, so many. he was actually a really great guy, and, like, totally normal in a lot of ways and that was his genius. this is as fast as i can. one time, andy came in with a tremendous boil on the back of his neck, and everybody was so disgusted, and he said, i bit i -- if you come up, and give me a dollar, you can touch andy's boil. and sure enough, 115 people line -- he was such a provocateur. >> why did -- >> because he had to stay warm in a cab, because he -- >> the blizzard. yes! >> that was on -- that was shot on august 27th of 1982. >> what a memory. >> why did louie spy on you? >> because he liked me, he poked

a hole in the women's bathroom. >> that's right. and then you poked hess eye with your finger. >> yeah. he said -- >> you are sick. >> this is a sickness. >> "60 minutes" piece, just incredible memory. what's it called? >> highly superior auto biographical memory. ask me anything. >> that's amazing. >> do you have kids? >> give me one of your children's birthdays. >> wow. >> are they recent? >> yeah. >> well, whatever. do a long time ago, too. >> we'll go with august 8, 2003. >> august 8th, 2003, was a thursday. >> wow. >> right? >> may 25th, 2008. >> now he's into it. >> may 25th -- >> 2008. >> 2008 was a sunday. >> oh, my lord. right? >> august -- you said 2003, right? >> right. no, i'm sorry, a friday. i'm so sorry, that was a friday.

>> and when did you figure out you had this ability? >> i into you it my entire life. >> yeah. >> because i just -- as a 6-year-old, i put myself to sleep, saying, what did i do a year ago in kindergarten, what did i do when i was my brother's age. it's like time travel. no, 2003 was a friday. >> can you remember what you did on those days? >> yeah, of course. of course. in fact, i know what i was doing on your daughter's -- august 8th, i went to -- i was just coming home from san francisco that day, and, you know, i see, like, the whole week line itself up. i went to batting cage practices. i know where i ate, millennium restaurant. >> this is a contrast from when i called you on thursday of last week and said, where have i been the past seven days? >> i remember that. is this the bacon and cheese diet?

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♪ up next, we're looking ahead to president obama's highly anticipated speech on the nsa. former nsa director retired general michael hayden will join the discussion. ♪ should not all those presents make the cut ♪

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. 5:00 a.m. on the west coast as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set, we have john hywellman, john mecham, howard dean, and in washington, the a.p.'s julie pace. we begin with some breaking political news. senator tom coburn announced he will retire before his term expires. the oklahoma republican, who is battling prostate cancer, says his decision to step down has nothing to do with his health. the 65-year-old pledged to only serve two terms, and writes in a statement, quote, i intend to continue our fight for oklahoma and will do everything in my power to force the senate to re-embrace its heritage of debate, deliberation, and consensus as we face our many challenges ahead. republican congressman buck mckeon of california also calling it quits.

he partially blamed frustration with the tea party for rejecting legislation plans, because they weren't, quote, good enough. the house armed services chair became highly emotional as he paid tribute to american troops. >> patricia and i will always be among the thousands who pray -- -- for the safe return -- of those in uniform around the world, fighting for our freedoms. >> you know, seeing buck do that, john mecham, and obviously secretary gates got choke the'd

up time and time again near the end of his tenure, you do understand that these people are -- sometimes we say, oh, these politicians send troops off to war, and they have no idea the impact it has. there are some who actually make it their business to know exactly what impact it has on families. >> right. >> and, mika, i guess so far 16 members have decided they're not going to run in the house. it's getting -- >> 11 republicans. >> 11 republicans. there's just such frustration on both sides of the aisle. people just deciding it's just not worth it anymore. >> yeah. on the troop question, i think the lawmakers who make it a point to have a tactile connection to the ultimate -- the human factor, the human force, to actually implement policy, they do have that

reaction. it's one of the reasons, and we tacked before, does anyone really think if there were a draft in this country, the last ten years of military action would have unfolded the way it unfolded? >> absolutely not. >> if, in fact, military service touched every class of american life in a more or less equal way. >> president obama set to deliver a landmark speech on the future of how this country collects mass data on americans and people across the world. the president is expected to call for a privacy advocate to argue before the controversial fisa court and for greater protections for people living outside of the u.s. and reuters reports that he will ask that bulk meta data not be stored by the government. he's also expected to call for judicial approval every time the database is searched. with us now from washington, we have former director of the nsa and cia, now a principal at chertoff group, michael hayden. general haden, thank you for being on the show.

>> general, thank you so much. >> good morning. >> i must admit, i'm confused by the president's continued -- i wouldn't say it's a twostep, it's more like a three-step or four-step -- you run against a program when you're running for president. you say it's immoral, it's anti-american, and it cuts against the very fabric that make us a great country. and then you get briefed, and then you decide not only that you're going to embrace those tactics that you criticized, but you're going to supersize them, and you're going to make them even more expansive. and then, something happens, like, let's say, edward snowden, or a drone strike gone awry, and you ring your hands in discomfort. and then you say, "well, i'm now going to reform these and change these tactics, which i decided were so important to the safety of americans, that i actually expanded what bush and cheney did, but i'm going to take them away from future presidents."

could you, general, explain the wisdom of this in military terms? >> right. well, it's certainly what makes life in the permanent government very, very interesting. and frankly, joe, i think the transition between senator obama and president obama, national security looks different from the oval office than it does on the campaign from a hotel room in iowa. and once faced with both the realities and with the responsibilities of the office, he's continued -- and, as you said, doubled-down on many of the programs. and, joe, that may actually be why this is so contentious right now. because those who oppose the programs, and good americans all, but those who oppose them wanted to blame them on a particular president. president bush. but if president bush and president obama by and large do the same things, it's not george bush's program anymore. it's america's program. >> it's america's program, right. and, general, i want to be very clear. i do not criticize candidate

obama for being ignorant of the realities that a commander in chief faces every day. every presidential candidate is ignorant of those realities until they sit in the chair. what disturbs me is the fact that now that he has sat in the chair and he understands how essential these techniques are for the protection of americans -- in his opinion -- he's now talking about curbing those very protections for future presidents. is that a misreading? >> well, we'll see what the speech says, but unless all the press leaks over the past three days are a massive head-fake, i think what we're going to see in the speech, joe, is all of the language in the speech kind of fading left about transformation and transparency and checks and balances. but frankly, i think the substance of the speech is going to be holding his ground. and i don't know that american intelligence agencies are going to be doing a whole lot of

things different in a week, a month, or a year than they're doing right now. >> if they are, i think snowden's place in history might -- it'll be interesting, to see how that pans out. julie pace in washington has a question for you, general. >> yeah, general haden, the speech is obviously highly anticipated. it's the culmination in many ways of a months' long review that's happened in the white house, and with a presidential commission. but i'm curious for your opinion based on some of the things we have seen over the past couple of days that have come out about what the president will recommend. do you see anything that actually does curb the nsa's power, particularly as it relates to the phone record collections? or are these largely cosmetic changes or layering on -- just layering on other levels of oversight? >> well, you've got two elements to the phone records program. one is, who holds the data? and secondly, who okays the questioning of the data? i think the president's going to punt the first question to congress, and nsa will continue to hold the data. and congress won't come up with

an acceptable change. and so, the data will still be held by the national security agency, and frankly, i think that's fine. there's some dispute as to whether the president will allow nsa to query the data directly or go to a fisa court judge every time they do that. i've actually got, julie, some pretty strong feelings about that. i was the director of nsa prior to 9/11, and if you direct the agency they've got to go to a judge before they query data that is already there and already lawfully collected, that really feels like september 10th to me. that's a pre-9/11 mindset. and that would make me uncomfortable. >> john? >> i noticed you were agreeing with the general when he was saying that the president's language will drift left, but the reality will stay where it is. >> well, again, i would want to see what i has to say, because things seem in motion. "the new york times" was reporting that the president seemed to be leaning towards having the government keep the

meta data, and now it seems like reuters is reporting that the government -- that the president will advocate that data being kept with the telecom companies. i'm curious, general, and i think so things are in motion, i do think there's some chance what he's trying to do is rhetorically apiece critics while substantially remaining with the program in place. general, i want to ask you about the question of the public advocate. this is one of the things that the president -- he seems like he will advocate today, which is have a public advocate who argues against the government on the question of some of the warrants, i think, with the fisa court. there are some critics, some think it's a good idea, some think it's a bad idea. what do you think of that proposal? it could be one of the big things he talks about. >> yeah, that is one of the process things he could shade left on. and really, his mission here is, i don't think, to change what we're doing. his mission here is to make people more comfortable about what it is the intelligence

agencies are doing. with regard to the public advocate, in my heart of hearts, it's not necessary and the fisa court has actually said that. but if there is an advocate, i think that's a digestible change, as long as the advocate's activities are confined to those macro legal decisions that say this entire approach is lawful and consistent with the fourth amendment. if you put an advocate in there every time nsa wants to go to the court for an individualized, specific warrant, you are now suddenly giving agents of a foreign power more constitutional protections than american citizens have when the fbi wants to go up against them with a criminal warrant. >> and do you think those fisa court rulings should be declassified? there are some in congress that want to see that happen, and i'm curious about your view on that. >> yeah, i think we need a larger dose of transparency across the board. i know the fisa court judge, judge banks, is a little

uncomfortable with that, because doesn't think it will present a holistic picture, and it could be misinterpreted, as you declassify this bit and not that bit. over the long term, we'll have to be more transparent with the american people to get a level of comfort or at least acceptance, because if we don't get that, we're not going to be aible to do these things in the first place anymore. coming up on "morning joe," it's not just some democrats relishing chris christie's troubles in new jersey. members of mitt romney's 2012 campaign are also enjoying the moment. that's next in the political playbook. first, bill karens with a check on the forecast. bill? >> mika, an interesting forecast over the next week or two. we have the fires and drought out west. and then a big arctic outbreak headed for the central and eastern u.s. next week. so the fire yesterday outside of los angeles, just an incredibly close to l.a., and then the smoke was blowing over l.a., and the drought conditions is the big reason why. notice that california, nevada have the worst drought

conditions in all of the west, and that's where it's going to stay. this is the middle of the rainy season. no rain in sight, even over the next ten days. very little, if anything, from northern california, and that's where we desperately need it. heard of one town that has 100 days left of water, if that doesn't rain. hopefully, we'll get the rain in february. very cold wind chills from minneapolis to duluth. this is a little taste of what's to come next week. this will be a short-lived arctic outbreak. and also a little bit of snow this morning along the ohio river between kentucky, indiana, and now heading for ohio. so the forecast over the weekend, we're cold today. it moves to the east coast. temperatures will drop, but the big story's going to be in the next ten days. we get an arctic outbreak that dives down. you'll hear that term, polar vortex, another 1,000 times over the next purples, white, that's coming our way the middle of next week. ♪

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over the pizza place on chestnut street the modest first floor bedroom in tallinn, estonia and the southbound bus barreling down i-95. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪ ♪ every now and then i get a little bit tired ♪

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♪ let's take a look at the morning papers. "the new york times," and new quinnipiac poll, says two-thirds of new york voters are optimistic by new mayor bill de blasio. nearly three out of four support the plan to raise income tax on residents making more than $500,000 to pay for pre-k. so far, de blasio's job approval rating is at 53%, yet an

overwhelming 69% of voters opposed his plan to end kaurcare rides. a woman in san francisco pulled over for wearing google glasses, showing there wasn't enough proof that she was operating the glasses. it's sparking questions about distracted driving laws and new forms of technology. i will tell you, seriously -- >> yeah. >> -- i take different roads going home sometimes. i do not take winding roads, because i'm afraid -- for good reason -- of drivers going around corners, texting. >> yeah. >> i mean, that's -- you know, that's -- >> and now, i think some cars are going to have internet -- >> you think the carriages, the carriage ride home. >> i would like to take a carriage ride home. >> all right. "usa today" -- >> we have t.j., lives in lancaster county, and he has a carriage ride all the way --

>> mennonite carriage. >> yeah. t.j., how long is that -- how long is that commute? >> clip, clip, clip. >> it's about three hours. >> three hours? >> yeah. >> the horse is slow. >> are you still going -- >> what's the name of the horse again? >> abraham. >> abraham. >> something in latin. >> something in latin. you guys still going to be able to do that with mayor de blasio, or -- we can get a reporter-like, and the amish exception. he's not amish, but he'll lie. >> all right. "usa today" -- weird -- a new report from the surgeon general links smoking to diseases such as colon cancer and diabetes for the first time. the report says smoking also causes rheumatoid arthritis and various birth defects. smoking costs the u.s. $286 billion in various medical costs for smokers and those exposed to secondhand smoke. and i was just asking the other day on this set, who here smokes, because i -- i just -- i don't know. >> the interesting thing is -- >> young people.

>> what is the deal? >> smoking what? >> my understanding with those e-cigarettes is they kind of help people quit. >> they do. the controversy is -- and this is an interesting controversy, i don't have an opinion on it, for once -- >> yeah. >> -- so the controversy is, is this an entry way into smoking cigarettes for young kids. or is it a way to quit? i suspect it's a way to quit mostly. >> i have friends that have been smoking for decades -- >> swear by it. >> -- decades that now use these, they've tried everything to quit, have used these things and have quit. >> yeah. >> and they still will use the e-cigarettes once in a while, but the ones that have studied it, explains that it doesn't have all of the stuff that kills you. >> no, it doesn't have the tar. >> yeah. they say, i only get the nicotine through a vapor. but even that, it's easy for me to sort of wean myself off of. >> essentially, the equivalent of the nicotine patch or the gum, right? in a different form. >> yes, it is. and here's the -- the big question --

>> going through that repetitive motion that a lot -- >> absolutely. absolutely. >> -- mentally -- >> the interesting question is do you ban any cigarettes indoors and what about the vapor and all of that, is that annoying to other people and all that kind of stuff? ? i don't know what the answer is, but it's an interesting one. >> it's not, though, the -- secondhand vapor, if you're just -- >> we don't know. we don't know. >> -- nicotine. that's not -- >> better than smoking. >> 70 years ago we're having this conversation, there's no problem with secondhand smoke, and cigarette companies are advertising -- >> oh, yeah. jim, the latest wave of subpoenas out in new jersey trying to get to the bottom of the george washington bridge scandal. a source tells nbc news among those subpoenaed governor christie's re-election campaign organization, christie spent the day yesterday visiting with hurricane sandy victims to announce that $800 million in federal housing recovery funds have been handed out. the event was scrubbed last week as the scandal turned into a

full boil. the governor closed his speech with a nod to the growing headwinds in trenton. >> no one, i could assure you, ever told me or anybody on my team that it's going to be easy. hadn't been up to this point, and there's all kinds of challenges, as you know, that come every day out of nowhere to test you. but i want to assure the people of new jersey one thing. i was born here. i was raised here. i'm raising my family here. and this is where i intend to spend the rest of my life. and whatever test they put in front of me, i will meet those tests, because i'm doing it on your behalf. so thank you all very much -- >> so now, we're also getting word from politico, jim, that -- i don't like this story, actually. mitt romney -- >> you don't have to -- a lot of

people don't like the stuff -- but i like the story. [ laughter ] >> i love this story. >> it's hateful. >> no, no, not hateful. it's honest about republicans and -- >> exactly. >> guys, we don't have people who know what the story is. go. >> the story is mitt romney, the people who work for mitt romney, the people who raised money for mitt romney, are pretty gleeful watching what's happening with chris christie, because what they're seeing is a manifestation of what they saw. his arrogance. when they dealt with him at the convention speech, he comes in with a bigger entourage than the candidate himself. does a speech that's all about him. and in the final weeks of the campaign, goes and embraces the president, didn't really care what the romney folks were saying, hey, could you keep at least some distance so it doesn't backfire against us in the presidential campaign. they're saying, ha, you're getting your comeuppance, and it speaks to what a lot of republicans think about him and his people. it's one of the reasons you don't see a lot of people out there forcefully defending chris

christie. and so, i think that type of -- that type of human drama, that type of intrigue goes a long way in explaining his predicament. and he is in -- he is in some trouble. we talked yesterday. he'll be probably fine in the long, long term, if nothing else comes out. but there's a report out this morning that six times as many people were commenting on facebook about this than they were about the steroids scandal or about justin bieber, about any other pop culture thing. people are paying attention to this. he is a celebrity. >> right. >> he made himself a celebrity. >> we have somebody on the other side of the table, obviously, that you've done, john, extensive reporting on this clash between the romney camp and the christie camp, and specifically the vetting process. that the romney people went through, the information that they couldn't get from chris christie, suggestions from a lot of people, reading that these sort of issues would rise as we move closer to 2016. and here we have something again

that probably makes those romney people go, "well, we think there's a lot more of that out there." >> and, also, this is just the kind of thing they were worried about. not this thing specifically. they didn't know about this. but that these were the -- you know, the reason mitt romney didn't put chris christie on the ticket to large extent, he was afraid of having surprises that would come up in the course of general election that would be of this nature. and, you know, if you think back even further than that -- >> wouldn't you say -- when you say of this nature -- >> yeah, there that -- that he plays by his own rules and is not coloring within the lines, and to go to jim's point about arrogance. you step back to much earlier in the campaign, and the thing that really echoes in this -- in the bridge scandal is when, you know, mitt romney went down to see chris christie in the governor's mansion and asked him for his support, and chris christie was not yet ready to endorse him, and christie said you can't now fund raise in new jersey until i've made up my mind. and that was a conversation that the governor -- governor romney walked away feeling like he's

been in the scene of "the sopranos." he couldn't fund-raise in a state where he had fund-raised in 2008. >> wait. did chris christie told mitt romney -- >> yes, yes. >> -- couldn't fund-raise -- >> yes, hold on a second. hold on. >> what did mitt romney say back to chris christie? >> they got in quite -- they got into a squabble about it. it was a private conversation at the governor's mansion. >> right. >> he went back to boston and said, i can't believe, this is ridiculous. most of romney campaign thought it was ridiculous. >> did he raise money in jersey? >> and then they all decided to accede to his demands -- >> seriously, if somebody told me that, and i'm sure, i would throw a fund-raiser in that state that night. i would call my staff -- no, i'm serious. that's unbelievable. >> this is not -- i would encourage anyone pick up the halprin book and read the chapter on chris christie.

it was far and away the best chapter in that entire book. it tells you outside -- put the scandal aside. read that chapter and the guy has a lot more trouble ahead than just this one episode. there's a reason they didn't want to go through the vetting. >> politico's jim, thank you very much. technology is making us lonelier and more detached, and an article in "new york times magazine" says otherwise, and its author joins us. a new documentary explore as radical idea in education. our conversation with the filmmakers next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ stacy's mom has got it goin' on ♪ ♪ stacy's mom has got it goin' on ♪ ♪ stacy's mom has got it goin' on ♪

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♪ are the things you're doing making a difference in anyone's lives? >> i think it's critical people rally around this thing. >> i want these kids to be excited about coming to school every day. >> this is amazing. >> you always need to keep putting ideas together to make a better one. >> i'd never been a part of something so big. >> breakthrough moments happen so rarely that half the time you think you're doing a lousy job as a teacher. but when it does happen, i mean, it just floors you. >> the farmers market is the beginning. >> to stand here and look

around, it's just amazing. >> it really is a blessing. >> i love those guys. >> i'm just so proud of them. >> this is something that really can transform lives. >> that was a look at "if you build it," the new documentary that shows a whole new way to educate and inspire students. joining us now, the film's director patrick creedon and one of the producers, and katie also at the table. where does the documentary take place? how, in your view, in your mind's eye, your camera's eye, how is it transforming education? >> the film takes place in a small town called windsor, north carolina. it's a wonderful place to try an experiment in education, because what ended up happening over the course of the year was, there were two young teachers, ten students, ten juniors in high school, and a radical new idea in education, which is let's teach young people how to design and build things. you know, this is not graduate school education. >> yeah.

>> this is not -- this is not, you know, the rhode island school of design. >> yeah. >> harvard, or m.i.t. this is a small public school in a town you never heard of. >> this could help you in your life after school. >> exactly. whether or not you want to grow up to be a designer or engineer. >> they started off by building a chicken coop, and you lead up to a farmers market. how is this different from teaching them basic vocational skills that might help them become carpenters later on in life? what's the quantifiable difference here? >> these kids take their own story -- this is a story of obesity in a small town in north carolina, unemployment, and lack of access to fresh fruits and vegetables, taking their own story, they said, how are you going to solve this problem? and they solved the problem by designing what we call human-centered design, or design thinking. and they build a solution. so it's really thinking about how do we problem-solve in an area that has a lot of challenges, and then they use building, they use trigonometry, they use history, they use

recycling, and they make a solution for the community. >> do you find -- i just read a book that touched on urban planning in a number of ways, and urban planning is the coolest thing. it's your environment, the things you touch and feel. and these kids are building a community, you know? do you find that that gave them sort of an extra sense of ownership rather than just building a, you know, one structure or something -- thinking where's the farmers market going to go, where are these thing going to go, you're conceiving something that's bigger. was that part of the intent there? >> 98% of the people in the world will never hire a designer, they'll never hire an architect. so really, we're living in a world that somebody else designed for us. and somebody else built for us. and what we found in this class is that when kids learn how to think about their own world and they get the basic skills for how to design something, and then how to put it out there into the world, there's a sense of ownership there. and these kids, what they end up doing in our film, is they end

up building a farmers market. this gorgeous, 2,000-square-foot farmers market that they designed and built for their own town. and which also created four new businesses and 12 new jobs in the first year alone. >> i have a question about this world, the small universe that this documentary is all about. how many children, students, are in the school? how many students are in this particular class that you're doing the documentary on? does being in that class cause any sense of exclusion among the rest of the kids in the school, saying they're different? or does it say, we want to get into something like this? >> this is most of the kids in the school. this is a very small rural school. and what's interesting is, they spent half their day in this barn that was their design studio, and the other half of the day doing courses online. so they were all stuck in a little room. and so, we just show the difference. make it yourself, do it

yourself, explore the world. or be in a little room and do even p.e. online. it's a little bit crazy. so we're all, you know, talking about let's do everything online. and we want to show that online may not be the only way to go. it may be one way to go, but still we want kids to think about the problems in their community. if you watch this documentary, you may not need a farmers market, but you may have empty lots in your community that you want to turn into vegetable gardens, or you may want to do all sorts of things for your community. we hope to inspire you to take the tools of design and build for your future. >> if you build it, it's playing in select theaters. go to ifyoubuilditmovie.com. thank you very much for joining us. >> thanks for having us. >> more "morning joe" in a moment. [ male announcer ] this is joe woods' first day of work.

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are these feelings even real? or are they just programming? that idea really hurts. and then, i get angry at myself for even having pain. oh, what a sad trick. >> you feel real to me, samantha. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." that was a clip from the new movie and oscar-nominated film "her," where joaquin phoenix falls in love with a computer, the voice is scar len johansson. >> he falls in love with his operating system, which is -- >> it's not a computer. it's not, like, a machine -- >> it's a compute where a voice. >> it's a masterpiece. >> it's a great movie. but also certainly an interesting conversation about

our culture, and right now, "the new york times" columnist mark open shi e penheimer shows us ty be making us more social and not driving as you apart. i'm going to tweet brian sullivan -- >> okay. i'll be reading it down here, actually. >> yeah. we've got john still here, cnbc's brian sullivan is here, as well, to join us. we're going to tweet back and forth. a lot of people say that the fascination that we all have with our devices is something that's separating us, but you take the opposite look with your story. >> i'm looking at the work of a guy named keith hampton who teaches at rutgers, and he studied public places, and he compared them to scenes -- to screen shots and videos that we have from 30 years ago, and how has it changed? because he said, we don't have any research. we think people are on the devices, about you we don't know. what he found was scarcely

anymore people in major downtown urban areas are really on their phones, and, in fact, more people are in groups, socializing with friends. the pekt in terms of public life is rosy, and people may be using the devices to set up meetings, to say, come meet me, i'm down here. once people are together, they actually talk to each other. >> we're more competitive on four square. >> yeah, checking in at 30 rock. >> yeah, listen, let's say you're skiing. you can find people -- if you lose your friends skiing, there's where the cell phone is fantastic. hey, guys, i'm over here. you can use it to link up. i found the results surprising, because it seems that everybody is doing this. the research says otherwise. >> right. well, what he's saying is, yeah, a lot of people, when alone, instead of having a newspaper under their arm, or having a magazine, this is how we're reading the newspapers and magazines and maybe sending messages and playing games, as well. what he's saying is it's not necessarily the threat to social life and to public interaction that we thought, because when our friend shows up for lunch,

we actually sit and talk to him or her and have lunch. this doesn't say anything about what's going on inside the home. >> right. >> it doesn't say anything about whether kids are talking to their parents at the dinner table. >> and other private spaces, right? i think almost everybody has had the experience that's just emperrically do, and at some point in the dinner, some people will look at their device. i'm sure the question is, what constitutes social interaction? >> right, absolutely. and, you know, look, there's probably a decrease in the amount of time people are spending on the phone. we always have used technologies and, you know, at one point it was the telegraph -- you know. so the fact that kids are spending less time on the phone and more time texting with each other isn't necessarily a net gain or a loss. it's just a different technology. the real loss would be if actually parents and kids are sitting together. so one thing that he points out, or sherry terkle, a critic of the work, teaches at m.i.t., she

said look at parents pushing kids down the street in a stroller. her point is, look, the real danger is 20 years ago, a lot of the moms, mostly moms, of course, were actually talking to their babies, making googly talk, teaching words. now, if you see the mom pushing and texting, that could be a real loss. >> well, the kid has the tablet. >> yeah, the 1-year-old with the tablet. >> in the baby carriage. >> buying apps. you know. >> for mom. >> apple has to give you the money back. >> that was googly talk. >> googly talk. >> notice he didn't say bengly or yahooly talk. >> it's interesting to see how the kids raise up, and, you know, the parents -- because kids take so much learning from their parents and what they see them do, they want to replicate, and we know parents struggle to get the tablets and devices back from the kids. >> one interesting piece, the least expected difference from 30 years ago, more women in public spaces. even in 1980, if you looked at bryant park, so many fewer women

in the business district downtown. >> right. >> and obviously, just labor force participation. >> absolutely. >> very fascinating. mark oppenheimer, thank you very much, sir. we'll read it this weekend in the new york magazine. and kate and her kids making news, it's not for what the kid said but how they behaved not talking. "morning joe" back in a moment.

we know we're not the center of your life, but we'll do our best to help you connect to what is.

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♪ this might be the funniest arson video ever. this happened in philadelphia. the man you see is trying to light an apartment building on fire. you see -- he appears to be using some sort of molotov cocktail. the first attempt didn't go well, so he tried it again. [ laughter ] and that didn't go well either. so he comes back. he relights whatever that is. you know, he may be an arsonist, but he's not a quitter, that's for sure. and sheer we go. he throws it at the -- and then back -- [ laughter ] if you try to do this in a comedy sketch, it would be impossible, but somehow he -- [ laughter ] and you know what, to held with it, this time, he said. it's one of the trick birthday

candles. >> just wasn't working. all right. so we watched that cringe-worthy moment, which is a good cringe-worthy moment, because you don't want that to light. kate gosselin bringing in her teen daughters to tell their story in their own words about how great they're doing, that the reality show didn't have an effect. >> we have not seen you or gotten to talk to you in a long, long time, and you're out, because you want the world to know you're doing ago. mady, what would you want to say about how you, your sister, and your family are doing? >> um -- >> mady, your words. >> it's a hard question. >> oh. >> what about you, cara? >> so this is their chance to talk. this is the most wordless i've heard them all morning. >> yeah. >> i don't want to speak for them, but, mady, go ahead. sort of the things you said in the magazine, that years later they're good, they're fine. go for it, mad.

it's your chance. >> no, you just said it. >> i said it. >> do you think people have the wrong impression of you guys, cara? >> cara. >> my gosh. >> that was awkward. wasn't it awkward? >> i have a daughter about one of the kids' ages. you know, it's -- that's tough, especially "use your words," snapping the fingers. >> have you ever watched sullivan show on cnbc? >> yeah. >> that happens every other day, like where you sort of -- >> sun's -- >> oh, no, where he gets -- >> one of the producers have to yell, use your words, brian, use your words. [ laughter ] [ snapping fingers ] >> like that? >> just like that. >> the viewers could only wish, john. >> but those daughters, they have daggerless. >> i made him smile. it's a miracle. it's a christmas miracle. >> i like it, man. that was good. i like that. coming up next on "morning joe," the week in review. plus, what if anything, did we learn today? ♪

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over the pizza place on chestnut street the modest first floor bedroom in tallinn, estonia and the southbound bus barreling down i-95. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪ good morning. barnyard animals on the morning show. it's not the first ass on this set. >> going cuckoo over there. about two days away from being a sweater. >> what? didn't i just see you in the hall? >> which one would i be, the

donkey or the alpaca? don't answer that. >> people scared to share their age. how old are you, joe? >> 50. >> really? >> 38. >> 27. >> okay. >> secretary gates has been saying all these wonderful things about dr. brzezinski, but he told us a negative story about him, which is the only thing we'll say on the air. >> that's my favorite. >> my favorite is right where -- >> yeah. that looks like you right there. [ laughter ] >> mika said that looks like me. i'm offended. >> t.j. lives in lancaster county, and he -- >> hen night carriage. >> how long is that commute? >> it's about three hours. >> about three hours? >> yeah. >> the horse is slow. >> ryan has such pretty blue eyes, sometimes it's easy to forget he's satan incarnate. >> we have seen him in person, the eyes aren't dreamy. compliment the baby blues, but mine are prettier.

>> i like the way barry lit the audience. the audience was lit. oh, no, no, i meant lighting. >> the actual lighting. >> oh, is that a saying? >> they always get lit at -- >> mika has joe in check. she knows the dirt on his collar. >> ah. i almost thought he wasn't going to embarrass us. what was that little jig he was doing at the end? >> not ironic. >> happy. >> happy it was over. it's hard work on the red carpet. >> mika, what's coming up on tomorrow's show? >> it's friday. >> can we not do this tomorrow? i want to do this tomorrow. i want to do it seven days a week. i don't have enough time to talk during the week. welcome back. something we learned today. thomas, what did you learn? i learned a lot about you and "taxi." >> yeah, marilu henner is a complete genius and a veggie caucus. >> what did you learn? >> room for compromise. minimum wage, and democrats will

get something on tax breaks and the keystone. >> one of the great political stories, howard dean, what his state's motto was. did not know the answer and responded something in latin, which it was not. >> what did you learn today? >> you know, i'm fascinated by chris christie's story evolves, regardless of the outcome. things are looking a little different right now. we'll see how it looks a year from now. >> all right. >> way too early, what time? >> time for "morning joe," but now time for "the daily rundown." >> chuck todd is that guy, right? >> yeah, chuck todd is that guy. yeah. ♪ can you hear me now? can they listen in now? in just two hours, president obama will try to reassure the country about what the nsa is doing and how he wants to change it. the big speech about spying and security just happens to fall on the anniversary of ike's famous military industrial complex farewell. plus, up in smoke. a deep dive into how decades of activism and popular culture changed the un