new fresh effects from olay. this morning, my question -- what's in the water in west virginia? plus, laverne cox of orange is the new black and the newly freed c.c. mcdonald join me live. and new questions about the war in iraq and what it accomplished. but, first, the government's long history of tlng in. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. have you ever taken a look at our list of federal holidays? and it's not a long list, because federal holidays are special. whatever ted cruz may have had you thinking last year, we don't shut the entire u.s. government down for just anybody. if you are among those who sacrifice and dedicate their lives to the safety and security of our nation, we take a day to

say, thank you for your service. if you are the only first president of the united states, congratulations, you get a holiday in your name! the point is, if you make this exulted list, it means our country recognizes a contribution so significant and pivotal to our nation's history that we must all stop for 24 hours to pay tribute. and there is only one other individual for whom we reserve that level of collective commemoration, dr. martin luther king jr. for the last 27 years, the third monday of january has been the day of national remembrance for the man who embodies the movement of nonviolent protests that sparked a transformative civil rights revolution in the united states. each year at this time, we revisit the images and moments that have, by now, become as familiar to us the as our own family photos. king, shoulder to shoulder, with members of the movement on the march from selma to montgomery, alabama, to campaign for voting rights. martin luther king jr. smiling and greeted with a kiss by his

wife, coretta scott king, as he emerges from a montgomery courthouse. and of course, dr. king on the steps of the lincoln memorial, inspiring thousands of listeners on the national mall, with his dream. but wlas it about our nation's relationship to king that we forget when we think we're just remembering? because the years have wrapped those black and white images in a bubble of sepia-toned nostalgia. when we strip it away, we find a much more complicated relationship between king and our country than the one we commonly recall. after all, it wasn't until 2000, 17 years after president reagan first established the holiday, that mlk, the day, was recognized by all 50 states. now, that's states with a little "s." but martin luther king was also seen as an enemy of the state, with a capital "s." the federal bureau of investigations director, fbi

director, j. edgar hoover, is widely reported to have a personal animosity, bordering on obsession with king. and despite king's philosophy of nonviolence, hoover feared he had become a so-called messiah, that would galvanize a movement of militant black nationalism. shortly after king criticized the fbi for failing to protect activists and black citizens, he became a prime target for the fbi's covert domestic intelligence program, more commonly known as cointell pro. according to fbi archival documents, from late 1963 and continuing until the assassination of dr. martin luther king jr., king was the target of an intensive campaign by the fbi to neutralize him as an effective civil rights leader. in the war against king, no holds were barred. the fbi's relentless service of king sought to embarrass and discredit him and to neutralize the power of the southern christian leadership conference.

king was subjected to investigations of his inner circle, wiretaps, and monitoring to expose alleged communist activities. in one instance, he was sent a tape-recorded copy of extramarital affairs along with a letter that read, "king, there is only one thing left for you to do. you know what it is. there is but one way out for you. you better take it before your filthy, fraudulent self is bared to the nation." they interpreted the letter as an attempt to blackmail king into taking his own life. i was reminded this week of how the threads of this history tie our nation's past inextricably with our present, when i heard president obama say this during his speech on friday. >> in fact, even the united states proved not to be immune to the abuse of surveillance. in the 1960s, government spied on civil rights leaders and critics of the vietnam war. in fact, during the course of our review, i've often reminded

myself, i would not be where i am today, if it were not for the courage of dissidents like dr. kic king, who were spied upon by their own government. >> did you see what he did there? president obama is acknowledging that his presidency would not be possible without the man who was targeted for surveillance by the very state, capital "s," that the president now leads. of course, that was a brief moment in a much longer speech about the real reason that compelled the president to address the nation this week. he was responding to the national outrage that ignited after edward snowden exposed the nsa's surveillance practices. in this pivotal moment for the future of the united states' national security, the president laid out new rules for how the nsa will collect surveillance information from this point forward. but in invoking the history of king and the fbi, president obama raised a much older question that stays with us until this day. when it comes to the use and abuse of state power against american citizens, how far is too far?

joining us now is khalil mohammad, director of the shamburg center for research in black culture. alahai azada, staff journalist at the national journal. earl, an iraq war veteran, and also a military historian. marcus mabry, "the new york times" lead blog editor. so nice to have y'all here. so khalil, let me start with you as the historian. what does that history that i tried to lay out, at least in part there, teach us about surveillance state in which we now live? >> well, it teaches that we don't learn our history lessons very well. so, the fbi document that revealed so much of this, there's a task force put together in 1977, and it reports on essentially wanted in the king case, and it makes crystal clear that first the allegation

of communist infiltration in the muchlt was already on thin ground from the start. then, one of king's trusty advisers, and i think this is really brillbrilliant, that he himself had renounced to communist party earlier, because it wasn't doing enough to renounce the race problem. so the very reason for the fbi's justification for going after king in the first place was discredited by their own investigation of his primary adviser. and therefore, by 1963, according to this task force looking back, there was no legal justification for any additional surveillance. therefore, it tells us something about how there is a pretext for investigation. once that pretext is established, that there's no legal ground for that investigation, it's over. but it didn't end. it went on for six years. >> i love this and i want to draw out exactly that thread, that idea that the issue and the thing, i think, that causes us always to pause when we realize,

oh, wait a minute, dr. king was under this kind of surveillance. now we have a federal holiday to him, is this notion of the groundwork, the reason that we would engage in surveillance, particularly on an american citizen. is there something that you heard in what the president said this week that suggests to you that we are going to be shifting, earl, our understanding of what constitutes the reason that we would be listening in? >> no. nothing from the president, in what the president said. i think the president, what he did was what an executive does, and he's actually looking towards congress, i think, for legislation on this, and he's left a lot of room for maneuver in this speech. one he said, emergency, and words like emergency need to be defined and they need to be defined through a legislation. also, he's trying to redefine this issue of national security in the 21st century. this was something that was done in the 20th century with the anarchist movement and the first wave of modern terrorism.

with where we see this worldwide assassination attempt, that even theodore roosevelt said that the new scourge of the earth is anarchism and that it has to have a war on anarchy, and we have to, as nations, come together. so he's trying to redefine that in here. i do not think that he has the case. i think that this is a recurrent theme, all the way back to the early republic with the sedition acts, and if you speak out against the government, immediately the state itself will coalesce around itself to support it. >> and i don't want to miss that, because i know, you know, it's easy to get caught in the weeds of any particular historic moment and to get, you know, to talk specifically or exclusively about edward snowden, but marcus, i do want to push this a little bit. because this idea that all the way back, that what states do, states with a capital "s," do is they protect their monopoly on the legitimate use of violence, force, and coercion. so if you are either suggesting that their use of violence, force, and coercion is illegitimate, oar if you are

challenging the monopoly, because you are actually raising your own, you know, capacity for force, then the state will, as matter of being the state, is going to respond back. soy wonder, like, given that is the core of what a government is, how, then, democracy is meant to check that. and what we can begin to think about in terms of rethinking our privacy in connection wito security. >> it's interesting, because the president tried to acknowledge exactly that conoundrum. he started off by saying that we have a greater capacity in the u.s. state to go farther invading people's privacy not just here, but around the world, than ever before. and he even suggested that largely, this power is unchecked. so no one can check it, except for us. he actually acknowledged that there is this problem. and i think coming from, as he does, a progressive background, that is, quintessentially, a philosophical problem. but he had to deal and balance it out with the realistic

problem, the actual reality problem in the world we live in today, in which we do need to do a greater deal of spying than ever before, it is believed, to keep the nation safe. now, where do you draw the line? he acknowledged there's this conundrum. the previous administration didn't even acknowledge there was a conundrum. they said, there's no choice here, you can trust it. he did acknowledge it, that's something. the problem i see here is, i don't think it's going to satisfy the other side. i think the intelligence community will say, this is not enough. for us having to go to court more often. so get some legal, as these laws are ruled on by congress, to get some legal justification, of why we must be able to tap here or there. that's going to slow us up and make the country more threatened. on the other side of it, ironically, the civil libertarians and also the libertarians too cruel, the rand pauls of the world, are going tto say, this doesn't go far enough on their side of it. i'm not sure what we solve, unfortunately, with trying to split the difference.

>> i want to take a quick break, but i'll come right to you as soon as we get back. it to suggest that we are also only looking at one set of institutions and having anxiety about one set of institutions when it comes to privacy and that we need to expand our concern. and in fact, we heard a little bit of that from the president, earlier this week. stay right there. up next, it is not just about who is checking your information. it's also about what they're doing with it. so stay right there. when i first started shopping for a hybrid... i didn't even look at anything else. i just assumed you went and bought a prius. so this time around we were able to do some research and we ended up getting a ford... which we love. it's been a wonderful switch. it has everything that you could want in a car. it's the most fun to drive... because it's the most hi tech inside... i think this c-max can run circles around the prius... the biggest difference would definitely be the acceleration of the car... if you can get someone to test-drive a c-max... they would end up buying this more times than not. this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the...

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a relatively innocuous-sounding word that showed up six times in president obama's speech on friday is at the center of what he called the nsa's most controversial program. >> metadata. metadata. metadata. >> metadata. metadata is the information gathered by the nsa's bulk

collection of telephone members, and it is the part of the program that made americans most nervous that the government was reading their texts and listening to their phone calls. but as the president pointed out in his speech, that's not how metadata works. what it can tell the government is what number you dialed, where you were when you made the call, and how long you spoke. all of the information that your wireless carrier already knows about you. which makes me wonder if we should be worried about who else besides the nsa is watching what we do. obviously, i understand, you need to be concerned about state, because they have tanks. but i'm also concerned about the fact that verizon or at&t already have all this metadata and they have a profit motivation and not checked by democratic processes. >> all of these tech companies have put aside their competitive differences ahead of all of the nsa disclosures or beyond that, to actually push for more

transparency, because they have a profit concern. they feel like, if customers think that they're just turning over their information to the government constantly, they're actually not going to use their services. so they want more transparency to show that, hey, the government actually isn't asking us for all of this information. but you make a point. look at what happened with the target hacking and all of these institutions and we're living in an electronic society and global society where a lot of our private information is just tapped in and it's vulnerable to hackers and also state hackers. >> i think the target one is a great example, because it's this, you know, wide swath of people, it has an immediate impact. folks get, oh, here was my data and it was compromised. the one that's also got me a little nervous is that google recently bought nest. so nest are those, you know, it's so you can change the settings in your household, remotely, right? and so, you know, people have them in their new fancy fangled households, this is technology.

but when google purchases it and google has a self-described mission of organizing all the world's information, and now they can see into my house, like, i'm not saying they're spying, but i'm not saying that it's not possible, right, for google to then be watching. >> yeah. it's really the way the word is being structured. it's change so rapidly that we are coming across questions that we've never really had to ask ourselves before. and from a legislative standpoint, i mean, legislation is always far behind technology and adapting to that. >> is it true we've never had to ask them before? i think part of why i wanted to start with king is that, in fact, the most insis sent and detrimental and invasive presence in america has been on poor people and people of color and it has a very old history and continues to this day, from streetside, you know, surveillance cameras, to welfare officers who were cold into your house in the 1960s, to see if you had a man there. we have had an invasive state. it's typically been towards poor people and people of color.

>> right, i think there's definitely something to be said with each technological revolution brings about greater capacity for either corporations or governments, which are not separate entities, right? so even the cold war was a moment of consolidating the ability of private industry to be the handmaiden of government and prosecuting the war against communism here and abroad. and so the entanglements of technology are always part of that strange package. so we learning from the past have to recognize that there are choices to be made. one of the thing that's interesting in the hoover/king relationship is that it's clear that hoover doesn't actually have infinite capacity to wage surveillance against the civil rights movement. and so he's saying in these memos, well, do we want to put resources? do we want all our men on this problem? give me more. so he actually pushes back in the earliest days, because the capacity to do this work is not what it is, say, in 2013.

>> i got it. >> nevertheless, it is a direct response to the threat of the most dangerous negro, communism, the negro, and national security, which i think we can't let pass. so what is the reverse of that? if communism, we must protect white, we must be in the service of public capacity. so that makes a discretionary choice and in this case, drc. king became the choice. those who challenge the redistribution or maldistribution of wealth in this country becomes the choice. >> he's exactly right. there has to be an antagonism between government and the corporation, it's not cooperation, we talk all the time, because when you see they get in bed with each other and work together, this is what you see, this coalescing of power. that said, i think that by narrowing it only to people of color and poor people, i think we need to take a bigger look at it and say, in general, if we

look at the counterintel program, they did the counterintelligence on cloku kl klan, but then it's the danger is like insert terrorism, and you can apply that across broadly. how do you define someone as a terrorist or a communist? if i have a marxist believe, that does not believe i'm in contention with the government. where does that line -- is drawn? and that's where legislation and the judicial system and the separation -- >> and that becomes the thing that is almost more important, the question of technology. so technology does give capacity and does make it relatively more unlimited in its ability to collect these data. but the fundamental political question and intellectual question is how we define what constitute s a threat. i appreciate your point about expanding it. part of why i wanted to ask this question around poor people and people of color, my former

colleague at princeton, professor wes, used to say post-9/11, all of america had the opportunity to experience what so many african-americans had to experience for so long, the threat of random violence and being hated for your identity. and so he questioned whether or not in that sense of new solidarity, we would create more progressivism, or, as we actually did, in fact, limit. more on this, we've got a little bit from an interview this morning on this topic. and we'll bring marcus back. i also want to ask him about he wrote a biography of. e little rm over the pizza place on chestnut street the modest first floor bedroom in tallinn, estonia and the southbound bus barreling down i-95. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪

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way that respects people's privacy rights. >> that was california democratic senator, dianne feinste feinstein, who is also the chair of the senate intelligence committee, speaking to nbc's david gregory on this morning's "meet the press." so, marcus, you wrote a biography that i teach of condoleezza rice. and this language that others perceive us as the great satan and we've got to protect ourselves, that was really the discourse coming out of the bush white house under the rice regime. and so i'm just wondering, how much that continues to resonate for folks. >> i think in the bush administration, i talk about the book, but i don't think we've acknowledged it significantly enough. there was a psychosis. after 9/11, these people were the administration. condoleezza rice, george w. bush, certainly, were absolutely traumatized, and they couldn't admit this publicly, but the fact that 9/11 happened on their watch. whoever them wanted to import responsibility for, for that attack, the cia, our intelligences agencies not talking to each other, the fact

is, it happened on their watch. and they were not going to let anything like that ever happen again. and they didn't care. they would go to any lengths to ensure that didn't happen. their feeling really was, it didn't matter about privacy. all that married was securitter. they really did believe nothing else mattered except for that. this balancing act we see the administration trying to do, there was no balance problem. >> that notion of ideology, and i don't want to miss that, what we think of as the foreign enemy and domestic enemy, simultaneously being driven by that ideological viewpoint. khalil, we were reminded, just recently, the florida state legislature had passed a law to drug test welfare recipients. it was struck down by the federal courts. but then mississippi turn s around and passes its own, you know, if you want government aid, you have to be drug tested. the notion of the government, in

order to give you benefits, you have to pass up a constitutional right to privacy. >> it's also, in the larger context, it is a response to the perception of the obama administration and this moment as the great liberalization of america. the great back door to socialism in the united states. in that way, it does -- >> it wants to make you take trips to an actual socialist country. >> it does take us back to that historical arc, that takes us to dr. king, which is to say, what does it mean in the nation where inequality is so significant and intransigent, who is responsible for addressing this? and if not the government, whom? and in this case, the rationale is to say, this is an undeserving poor. that poverty resides in the character of the individual, resides in the culture of the community, therefore, this is not about the nation, this is

not about our society. to me, that rationale justifies any effort to invade privacy for the purposes of discounting one's humanity in this society. >> and it also feels to me like that ruptures a basic trust, that is necessary in a democracy. both that there has to be a certain level of trust in order to have privacy and human freedom, from the government to the people, but also that the peep must have a certain level of trust vis-a-vis their government. so i wonder, both on this domestic level of privacy invasion and on this question of whether or not in order to protect our boundaries, we are now invading the live of american citizens and foreign leaders. whether or not this just ruptures that trust in a way that is difficult for us to mend again. >> what's interesting about, at the top of the hour, talking about dr. king and the fbi surveillance on him and also fbi surveillance on many activists. and at one point, every black student was under fbi surveillance. but that disclosure and the snowden disclosures, both of

those happened because of individuals, private citizens, who stole information or gave information they weren't authorized to give. and that sparked a public debate and action. so it's really, what we're seeing right now is is a moment in time with the obama administration, trying to toe this line, and obama said, we need to have this public debate and more robust public debate. but it's being caused by private citizens. it isn't the state being fo forthright about it. but what's challenging is the nature of the debate, so much is classified. seeing senator feinstein, she's seeing things we're not seeing. so that's part of it too. >> and i want to acknowledge that. it's not just ideological that there are enemies of the state, both internally and externally. there really was an oklahoma city bombing. there really was 9/11. these things are not imaginary. and as a citizen, i do, in fact, want my state to take action for the protection of its citizens. >> then the difficult question becomes one of effectiveness and

efficiency, and whether or not this program is effective and efficient. and how much money is put into this. and even the president s review board says showed, it is not very effective. in case of emergency, the city gets shut down, like in the case of the boston bombings, that they can then access and query this database. the problem with that is that querying a database, as m.i.t. showed in their studies, you can have an entire profile of an individual, and as the counterintelligence agency has from the '50s or from the truman years, up to, it was ending in the carter years, that it was used for political enemies. and each -- and it didn't matter, democrat, republican, whatever it was, they queried that, and used that for political gains. and where does that fit in that national security structure? >> bridgegate got nothing on what happened in truman

administration. >> that's right. >> thank you to khalil mohammad and the other folks are sticking around for a bit. up next, the alarming turn of events iraq and what americans know or don't know about what is happening over there. hey there, i just got my bill, and i see that it includes my fico® credit score. yup, you get it free each month to help you avoid surprises with your credit. good. i hate surprises. surprise! at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card and see your fico® credit score. [ chicken caws ]

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just a little more than two years ago, the world watched as the last of the u.s. convoys left iraq. the departure may have signaled the end of the war for americans, but the violence, bombings, and shootings barely skipped a beat for iraqis. just yesterday, at least 30 people were killed in bombings and fighting across the country. these latest fatalities follow a series of car bombings in baghdad last week that left at least 21 people dead. in parts of the cities of ramadi and fallujah, where u.s. forces fought some of their bloodiest battles during the war are now being run by militants, according to iraqi security forces. as headlines and lead stories on the evening news about iraq have

declined, we wondered how americans are staying informed of the continuing chaos abroad. so we sent msnbc.com's meredith clark to talk to a few of new york city's tourists and locals to find out. >> when was the last time you heard something about what's going on in iraq? >> the last time i heard something about going on in iraq has been some months now. >> i think it's probably been a few months since i saw or heard anything related to a news story about what's going on iraq. >> i do remember reading a story about the instability of the government in iraq. that's wafl what i remember. >> the last time i saw something on the news for iraq was this morning. it was about -- it was getting out of control, as far as the bombings were concerned. >> it has been a while since i heard something about what's going on in iraq. >> when was the last time you heard about what was going on in iraq? >> it was on the news yesterday and the days before that as well. >> it was in "newsday" today,

just about the situation over there being unstable. people who had fought over there, sort of wondering what they had fought for. >> the most recent story i read about iraq, which is about the recent blast that killed 47 people. i talk to my colleagues about what's happening in iraq every day. i mean, the concern is real, so, you can't stay off it. you can't keep your mind off it. >> up next, more than ten years after the start of war in iraq, renewed debate over what was accomplished. so ally bank really has no hidden fees on savings accounts? that's right, no hidden fees. it's just that i'm worried about, you know, "hidden things." ok, why's that? well uhhh... surprise!!! um... well, it's true. at ally there are no hidden fees. not one. that's nice. no hidden fees, no worries. ally bank. your money needs an ally.

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than any other behind the counter liquid gel. thanks for the tip. [ male announcer ] no problem. oh...and hair products. aisle 9. [ inhales deeply ] oh what a relief it is. ♪ this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups. 2014 could mark the end of u.s. combat troops in afghanistan. and if troops are withdrawn this year, it will be the second time president obama makes good on an original campaign promise, to end u.s. troop involvement in a war. the first came a little more than two years ago in september 2011. >> one of the most extraordinary chapters in the history of the american military will come to

an end. iraq's future will be in the hands of its people. america's war in iraq will be over. >> a few days after the president's speech, the soldiers at ft. bragg in north carolina, the last u.s. troops left iraq, and crossed the border into kuwait. leaving behind a nearly nine-year war. a war that cost the u.s. more than 4,500 american lives and $800 billion. even for those who thought the war was won, debate on that very point continues to this day. according to u.s. intelligence officials, radical sunni forces that are linked with al qaeda raised their flag in the town of fallujah just after the new year. and fallujah is key, because it is the site of two of the bloodiest battles during the iraq war, in an area u.s. forces fought to shore up before leave iraq. reports of fallujah falling into the hands of al qaeda has left american soldiers who fought so hard for its liberation despondent, with one former army

captain tweeting, could someone smart convince me mat black flag flying over fallujah isn't analogous with the fall of saigon? because, well, if there is anything that is quintessentially american, it is our military, and their goal can be seen in their very mottos. so when something they have fought for so hard falls and u.s. ambivalence to putting anymore boots on the ground runs high, what is a soldier to do? joining the table now is also medal of honor recipient and msnbc political analyst, colonel jack jacobs. so let me start with you, colonel jacobs. this seems to be a question that is emerging. was this war in vain for the soldiers? >> well, for soldiers who are focused on achieving the mission and taking care of each other at the point of decision, it's never in vain. because your objective is to achieve the immediate objective, militarily, to hold on to it, and to take care of each other. so it's never in vain for a

soldier, sailor, airmen, and marine. at a national strategic level of analysis, however, the analysis is very much different. >> so, in fact, let's take it to that level of analysis let's listen to former secretary gates speaking on "meet the press" this morning and his conversation about exactly that. >> whether it was korea or vietnam or iraq or afghanistan, there is not a conclusion to these conflicts that end in a victory parade. and and the other aspect of this that i think is important, as we lack look at the future of war, as i put in the book and said often as the secretary of defense, in the last 40 years, our record in predicting where we would use military force next, even six months out, is perfect. we've never, once, gotten it right. >> colonel jacobs, do you want to respond? >> you know, it's kind of interesting. let's assume that we've got three ways we can exert our influence overseas, through diplomatic means, through

economic means, and through the use of the military, instrument of power. of those three, we are lousy at the first two. we have no idea how to influence people diplomatically. we're terrible, have always been terrible at it. it's catches catch can on the economic front. the only guys who really know what they're doing is the military. it's not for nothing that the default instrument of power is the use of the military instrument of power. having said that, it's the least efficacious in trying to influence other people. and until we get better at the national level, at analyzing the situation, creating a real national strategy, and integrating all three instrument of policy, we will continue to rely on the military, send kids off, and we're going to have the same lamentations we have today. >> i want you to respond. >> it's exactly right. the united states has this

narrow idea of what strategy is, and that is through military force. and when we look at the iraq war, we see this, but now we see secretary gates hinted at this, that they were going to a future way of war. well, that's not necessarily the case. again, maybe a return to a where war is a continuation of policy by other means and that we have this very narrow american conception of victory that we are on the battlefield, we are going to destroy people and we are going to win and come back in the victory parade. and that's not the way that war has been fought, up until we see the second world war, where we see the ultimate culmination of that. so what we see is a return back to the way the war was waged. but now, because of the reduced influence of the nation state in these parts of the world, we're seeing individual nonstate actors now come out and get together. and they are waging politics through the use of war. >> but american identity is deeply tied up in that war hero moment, right? we still are, in many ways, just

immediately a post-world war ii nation, in our sort of civilian understanding of what constitutes war, still have a lot of angst about the idea that america could lose a war by some definition. so part of what i'm wondering is, we're seeing the pentagon for the first time suggesting that it may be willing to send soldiers back to iraq for training of iraqi soldiers. i mean, do you see those as reasonable uses of this third instrument that we have? >> we missed an opportunity when we failed to get a status of forces agreement when we left. and if what we did there was not necessarily the military at the end, we were the buffer between the sunni in the an al barr provinces and the sunni tribal leaders and the shia in the baghdad. and so who were highly influenced by the iranians. and that, we see, then you see al qaeda and the islamic state. >> you know what the problem is here? over the years, it's -- our capability to use the military instrument has been greatly reduced by our inability to

understand ho w to use the military. and to paraphrase seinfeld, we we know how to get the objective, we just don't know how to hold on to the objective. and holding on is what's important. it always takes more resources to hold on than it does to get in the first place. we get coaxed into a feeling of of relaxation. we say, we'll send the marines in, the aerp in, and it will all be okay. no, no, no. once we get the objective, that's when the work really start. >> you talk about heroes. you carry a purple heart from that conflict. do you think fallujah was a mistake? was ate waste? >> absolutely not. because i teach valley forge military college security studies program that i teach there, that we wring in, from the middle east, we have a high percentage of middle eastern students and i taught my first iraqi student that actually went to the air force academy and i have a native fallujahian who was 200 feet away from me and

who lost his leg. and what i see is those people now, you have to understand the arab culture, that this is another way of negotiating society. where they are now, because they see this, they're moving out and waiting for the battle, the tribal militias to come back in. they're going to fight in the streets with al qaeda. maybe the government forces will move in, and they'll come back into their city. they're seeing this as another 2004 before the americans came in. the problem the that because the americans are not there to perform that buffer between the regular sunnis, who are not al qaeda types, because they are -- the regular sunnis are in conflict with the al qaeda types. because we don't have that negotiating stance there, we have -- now we have three people fighting all each other. and if the tribal militias, if those tribal leaders that align themselves with al qaeda, then we have a situation before 2006. >> so hold for me. because part of what i want to ask you, mark, also, as we come back, those sorts of complexities that people understand on the ground, that

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we're back and trying to think carefully about this question about our place in the world, particularly in terms of america's relationship to war and war making. we spent the first half of the hour, marcus, talking about whether or not democracy can hold accountable a government around spying and around privacy rights. and i'm thinking, you know, as i'm listening to the colonel and as i'm listening to earl talk about the complexities of on-the-ground realities, i keep thinking, how does an ordinary citizen hold accountable our lawmakers about the decisions they're making about how they deploy troops? >> i think compared to spying and the trade-off between security and privacy, this is much harder that be that. >> yeah, yeah. >> it makes the spying debate look easy.

it is just far too complicated and the way we're used to, as civilians, think about war and victory and loss, is incredibly binary. so modern warfare is not something we're prepared or educated for at all. so i don't have to be an optimist, because i'm a journalist. i get paid to be a skeptic. the fact is, i don't see how you educate a populist of the most powerful nation on earth to twa be able to hold accountable our government, in a time when war and win and loss is so undefinable. >> and it seems to me that this -- particularly if we go back to colonel jacobs' point, about our multiple use of -- we have diplomacy and economic capacity and the war machine, but the war machine is the only one we seem to be able to use, in part because we're not very good at the rest. i want to listen to secretary of state kerry, who's talking about our need to use dploiplomacy.

>> for anyone seeking to rewrite history or muddy the waters, let me state one more time what geneva ii is about. it is about establishing a process essential to the formation of a transition government body, governing body, with full executive powers established by mutual consent. >> so here he is, talking about syria, saying, we've got to put asad out. we've got to get in there and have this engagement with syria, but we're in a war-weary nation who feels like we didn't even win the iraq conflict. how can we effectively engage in this moment? >> that's exactly why he's saying that. because we are so war weary. if you recall, toward the end of the summer, when it became clear that syria used chemical weapons against its own people, the majority of americans, even then, opposed military intervention. and look at now, there's a recent cnn poll done about the afghanistan war, the war in afghanistan and support for that. and out of the 20 years that they've been asking about support for various conflicts

and wars, 17% of americans supported it. so it's arguably the least popular war that we've ever aged. so i'm really underscoring this point of how war weary this country is. and that's why the whole debate over what's happening with iran, i hate to pivot that way, but on iran's sanctions, it's really almost a tactical debate about how to avoid armed conflict. neither side is saying we want to go to war. neither side is kind of accusing the other. the white house has accused those who are pushing of -- >> of saber rattling. >> of essentially leading us on a path to war. this is the narrative that we're operating and the environment we're operating in. is that the majority of americans, the public, who isn't touched by war the way that those who go and serve in these conflicts and their families and communities are, day just don't want any part of it. >> i want to go to exactly that. if i'm an ordinary voter and this has suddenly broke down along partisan lines, how do i

strategically understand whether or not that sanction is, in fact, good strategically, or not, if, in fact, i see this as political or partisan instead. >> well, you're right. war is politics by other means. it is almost impossible for the average citizen to figure out how to act and what to do, which side to come down on. because his own government can't figure it out. we don't know in syria. we can't -- one of the reasons we're not acting in syria -- >> we don't know what to do? >> we don't -- on the one hand, we're saying, well, we've got to get rid of assad. assad's a bum and hezbollah's all hooked up in there. and we need to go in and get rid of him. and putin, when the door closes says, are you guys out of your minds? do you know who's this back of that guy? we can't -- the average can't decide, because the government can't decide. and until we have some genuine strategic vision, we're not going to be able to find our way down. >> and these will be continuing challenges for all of us. thank you, to colonel jack jacobs.

also, thank you to earl jr., i hope you'll be here and i hope you will come back. everyone else will stick around a bit. coming up next, the latest on the chemical spill in virginia. and cc mcdonald will join us live for her first television interview since she left prison. more nerdland at the top of the hour. [ male announcer ] the new new york is open. open to innovation. open to ambition. open to bold ideas. that's why new york has a new plan -- dozens of tax free zones all across the state. move here, expand here, or start a new business here and pay no taxes for ten years... we're new york. if there's something that creates more jobs, and grows more businesses... we're open to it. start a tax-free business at startup-ny.com.

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[ female announcer ] aaah, the amazing, delicious cinnamon and sugar taste of cinnamon toast crunch and cold milk. ♪ cinnamon toast crunch. crave those crazy squares. welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. let's go to west virginia, where coal is king. the state produces more coal than any other state of the union but one. more than 120 million tons of coal in 2012 alone. and a key part of that mining enterprise is a company called freedom industries, which distributes a chemical used to clean coal. freedom industries is based in west virginia's capital city, charleston. and right now, the company is

under fire, after a rupture in one of its storage tanks leaked chemicals and threatened the water supply of thousands. the elk river, which runs through charleston and connects to the ohio river, flowing into cincinnati, was tainted after 7,500 gallons of the compound named, and i'm going to say this slowly, and quite likely incorrectly, methylcylohexane pilled into the water. nearly 300,000 residents were urged not to drink or bathe in their running water. that was on the ninth. since then, they have given the go ahead for residents to drink the water again. all the blue on that map means that the water is fine. unless you're pregnant. a statement on the water company's website read, quote, due to limited availability of data and out of an abundance of

caution, you may wish to consider an alternate drinking water source for pregnant women until the chemical is at a nondetectable level in the water distribution system. and there are lingering questions about the possible health effects of the chemical. the charleston gazette reported two days ago that the key corporate study used by federal health fishes actually tested a pure form of the chemicals' main ingredient and may not account for potential toxicity of other components. in the wake of the spill, president obama has declared a state of emergency for the affected counties. in a formal state investigation was launched and more than two dozen lawsuits were filed against freedom industries. but on friday, freedom industries filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, giving freedom industries a reprieve from having to answer to the lawsuits, at least for now. on set with me now is josh fox, director and producer of gasland and gasland ii.

elahe, and marcus mabry, a new york typist lead blog editor. and joining us via skype from west virginia is bob kincaid, the cofounder of the an laborya health emergency campaign, and a broadcaster at the head on radio network. so nice to have you here this morning, bob. >> thank you very much for the t opportunity to talk with you, melissa. >> so, bob, you have described this circumstance to my producer as saying, we have allowed west virginia and the country to be turned into a liquidation asset for the corporate class. what does that mean and how is that related to the story i just told about what happened in west virginia? >> reporter: for over a hundred years now, melissa, everything in this state has been for sale to the highest bidder. for the most part, that largely entails the coal industry, but it also entails the chemical industry, going back to the discovery of brine wells in what

would become west virginia, way over a hundred years ago. we have sacrificed the health of the people of this state. we have sacrificed their ability to raise healthy families. we have sacrificed everything in order to enhance those corporate profits for people who are outside this state. let's understand that most of west virginia is still owned in excess of 90% by out of state interests. >> so, obviously, i mean, that's kind of an enormous way of -- so we're looking at this thing, josh, and i want to say, so one way to read this is, look, we're doing business. we're doing business and a bad thing happens, because sometimes bad things happen when we're doing business. and we feel bad about it and we're going to respond to it. but instead, what we're hearing from bob, this isn't just a bad thing happened on the way to doing some business, that this is a broader problem. >> our regulatory structure in the united states in complete collapse right now.

i don't haven't want to qualify this as a spill. a spill is something that happens by accident. you knock over one of these cups on the table. that's a spill. we had 6,000 oil and gas spills in 2012, that was 16 a day, amounts to more oil and gas spreading in the united states than the entire "exxon valdez" spill. if you're following these issues, and this is coal, right? another fossil fuel. the fossil fuel industries trade in toxic products. the chemical that was being stored right above the water intake for 300,000, and more than that, because the elk river flows down into the gulf of mexico. and we hear these things every single day. whether it was bp three years ago or the kalamazoo, michigan, spill, which still has 100,000 gallons of crude oil at the bottom of the kalamazoo. now we see this in west virginia. this is not a spill. this is a state of permanent, criminal negligence.

>> which is not a legal designation, right? this is a political analysis. >> it's my analysis, yes, but this is very, very commonplace. and you know, west virginia is a state that has been ravaged for a hundred years, mountaintop removal, throughout the state. employeei i blowing the tops off of mountains in the south, to an explosion of fracking wells in the north part of the state. >> let me come to that. the idea that west virginia, on the one hand, we were just talking about soldiers as representative as this kind of american narrative of the hearty american who goes out and does things that represent who we are as a country. and coal miners generally are. these are good people who we know don't earn a lot of money, but are doing work that fuels the rest of who we are. i think that's the romantic version of what the american coal mining story is. but then we see something like this. and we see water supplies tainted, potentially, for hundreds of thousands of people, and of course, obviously, that notion that if a pregnant woman can't drink it, it raises all

sorts of health concerns. . >> i think the reality here, and josh alluded to it, this is a system tick failure to regulate and protect the public from industrial activities. this happens to be in west virginia. this could have happened in many other parts of the country. there's fracking going on in other 30 states, with chemicals that are also not disclosed. so this is a failure of the companies, it's a failure of the state, and it's a failure of the federal government to really protect the public and to ensure that the public knows what they're being exposed to. one of the really grave concerns here is there's no data on this chemical. that there is just no information. and that it's a chemical that was grandfathered over 30 years ago, under the statute that's supposed to protect us, the toxic substances control act, which is a complete failure. so, this actually is a wake-up call for america, that we need major reform of the capital indust chemical industry, if the public is to be protected.

>> let me play devil's advocate welcome, marcus. i was recently in pab ma and you're looking at these amazing locks and everything that happens that makes global trade possible in an entirely different way as a result of the digging out of the panama canal. and also, here are all the people who died and here's the enormous human cost. and i think to myself, okay, so then how do we define what counts as a failure and as of a success? so this language that all three of you have used. this is clearly a failure of our regulation. but i'm also thinking, under all of these standards, we never build the panama canal, right? or we would have gone -- or am i wrong, right? so i want you to push back on this notion of, well, people have got to die for chemicals -- i mean, for corporate progress. >> my partner's family helped build that canal. unfortunately, i think most of you, you don't have to be the devil's advocate here. because west virginia's own senator and his former governor,

on wednesday, was giving a talk, and he actually said, he's been the devil's advocate for you and doing it from the united states senate. and in a speech on wednesday to clean coal industry, he actually said, what we have to worry about here is excessive regulation. now, this is in the wake of this -- this is what he said. so he went so far to say, the toxic substances act, which is up dating this winter, he's against updating it, providing legislation. he would like to withdraw the clean water act. >> bob, let me bring you in. is that the takeaway story here, that we have excessive regulation? >> melissa, they may say that, but the fact of the matter is, we don't have enough. for instance, what's already been brought up there, take into account that 300,000 people are without water right now. but not having decent water is nothing new in west virginia. in the mountaintop removal sacrifice zone of west virginia, it's nothing to have a coal

company poison your well, poison your water, inject these same toxic chemicals into your ground water, into old, abandoned mines, that was used in this particular disaster. we know for a fact that people who simply live near mountaintop removal communities get sick at vastly expanded rates. there's a ton of science to be read, for instance, over at ache.org. you can read all the peer reviewed science studies that show just living in west virginia can be hazardous to your health. and the fact of the matter is, while people like senator manchin say they don't want more regulation, we can't even get senator manchin to acknowledge that these studies even exist. >> bob, i want to go out on exactly that, because we're going to come back on precisely that issue and a glimpse of exactly how difficult life is, right there in west virginia, in this moment. ♪ whoa, who-o-o-a

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he actually drinks the instant milk. so you have to have jugged water for him to mix up his formula with. plus, i use that water to heat in this kettle, which i heat up water this morning in the kettle to sterilize his baby bottles. because he can't drink them without me cleaning them. >> that's a lot, huh? >> it's a big inconvenience. it takes about 30 minutes to an hour now to get him fully prepped to wash the dishes, get these bottles sterilized, his formula made. >> so this isn't fun? >> no. >> that was west virginia mom, penny favro last week, zrabing what it takes to take care of her 9-month-old son after thousands of gallons of chemicals poured into the city's

water supply on january 9th. i'll remind viewers that the do not drink the water advisory in west virginia has now been lifted, but pregnant women are still advised to stick to bottled water. and yesterday's charleston gazette said that a total of 411 patients have been treated at ten hospitals, reported for chemical exposure. no patients in critical condition, none still at the hospital, but 411 folks. so in other words, i don't want to be an alarmist, but, boy, i want to sound the alarm, right? >> yeah, another point to make is, yeah, no one wants their water to have chemicals in it, b but it will be interesting to see beyond this, how west virginias, if they organize and push for more regulation, i haven't on on the ground since this happened, was from a lot of the reports i'm reading, what i'm hearing from from various individuals is we don't need necessarily more regulation, but the state failed to withhold --

to enforce the regulations already there, or we need more regulation for this particular circumstance to avoid that, but no one really at the top echelons is calling for, let's get rid of the coal industry. because coal drives a lot of the economy there, and people are concerned. >> i want to pick up on exactly -- let me just look at what manchin said and let you respond to it. i think it's exactly this point. senator manchin said in today's "new york times" that coal and chemicals, inevitably bring risk, but that doesn't mean that they should be shut down. to err is human and you're going to stop living as -- are you going to stop living because you're afraid of making a mistake? and this is constantly the claim, particularly on these communities, they've got to make a choice between economic development and their health. >> and this is a completely false argument. senator manchin is bought and paid for by the coal industry, as our congress and house of representatives are bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industries. we should be having a conversation about more regulations. this is meaningless. where we have regulations on the books, they're not being

enforced at all. they're completely deprived of funds. we'll be having a national conversation about where we're getting our energy from. look at coal. even if you developed it perfectly, you're burning tons of co2 into the atmosphere, natural gas, another fossil fuel. we have to tie these conversations together. 71% of americans support more wind farms 75% of americans support more solar. we can do everything we need energy wise in this country, with renewable energy. where is president obama? we've had the greatest environmental catastrophe in american history in the gulf with oil. we have the biggest movement against fossil fuel drilling in the country's history with fracking for natural gas. we have mountaintop removal and this kind of disaster related to coal. we've never had a greater moment to work with political will towards the end of fossil fuels. that is the answer to this question. we're talking about chemicals here in the hundreds that are being exposed. i mean, the incidents of this type that are happening all over the country, i mean, we were in here just a few months ago talking about the last one.

>> josh, i love where you've taken us. you've taken us to this question of, where's the political will. i want to listen for a moment to speaker boehner, who similarly lays this problem at the feet of the president, but in a very different way, and then i want to get into the politics here. >> the issue is this. we have enough regulations on the books. and what the administration should be doing is doing their jobs. why wasn't this plant inspected since 1991? i am entirely confident that there are ample regulations already on the books to protect the health and safety of the american people. somebody ought to be held accountable here. >> so the leader of the great deregulation party claims that it's the president's fault that something that happened in the '90s, when he was a state senator, right, that it's his responsibility, right. then, again, keeps us from going to the conversation that josh is trying to bring up that, wait a minute, our problem is our reliance on these very industries.

>> the first thing is you have to have adequate safeguards to protect the public and implement and enforce them. that's the party of shrinking government. they're not giving the government the means, the federal government, or the state government, the means to do their job, or holding them accountable to do that. so the first thing is, protect the people. the second thing is exactly what josh says. we have to pivot as quickly as possible to clean energy. right now we have an energy boom across this country. charleston, west virginia, is not the only place that's facing the consequences of this enormous boom. there are communities where fracking is going on, there are communities where there are pipelines, pipeline spills, rail accidents that are happening. people across the country are increasingly alarmed about what they are being exposed to and what risks their families and their children are being exposed to. we have to shift that and go towards a clean energy future, and hold the politicians account able to ensure that we do that. >> bob, hr 526? >> yes, the appalachian communities health emergency act, melissa.

that has been in the congress since june of 2012. and the fact of the matter is, that's a first step, a step forward in trying to ascertain why it is that just being a west virginian can be so hazardous to your health. you know, everything that you just mentioned is a function of the feckless december deign that the political class and the industrial class has for people who live and work in west virginia. back when the birth defect study on mountaintop removal was released, the national mining association said it was a failure, because it failed to take into account appalachian people's proclivities for incest. joe manchin now says we're going to quit living because somebody made a mistake? no, you're going to quit living because somebody made a mistake, not because you made a mistake. when the cancer study was released a few months ago, governor earl ray tomlin said, well, every day, somebody else

says something makes you sick. now with regard to this increase in hospital visits, bless my soul if governor earl ray didn't step out and say, well, that's because it's flu season. >> right. so this is so important. i know we're running out of time, but marcus, i don't want to lose this. because this is one of the central issues in environmental justice battles. and that is that local communities often underresourced, cannot use their experiential data to push back against these major corporations. so, look, we're going to the hospitals, we have birth defects and we have cancer. people understanding in their own lives what illness looks like, and yet are being told by the experts, right? sometimes on the environmental side, sometimes on the corporate side, sometimes on the government side. you're just being dramatic. that's not really happening as a result of this. >> that's a problem, and that has helped, the much greater resources all those entities have, as opposed to local folks, as also helped to tamp down what

would be local political action to actually change things. change who they send to washington or to the capital. it doesn't change, because they're not empowered to do that. and they believe that, in fact, they won't have jobs if they allow regulations, greater regulation, or these existing regulations to be enforceded. where i think this joins, where you started your show today, is this question of trust. while that may work in the short-term, long-term, we have a deterioration of trust. and that's what we started off with top to have the show talking about. and that is dangerous for democracy. and that is dangerous for the future of the western formal government. >> bob kincaid. i so appreciate you joining us and speaking out for the people of west virginia in part, because, you know, so many of us live in communities who feel like they are often disposable communities. and i appreciate your voice. also to josh fox, elahe, and marcus mabry.

coming up, laverne cox and c.c. mcdonald join us live their first television interview since mcdonald's release from prison. her story is up next. what do we have? all four of us, together? 24. he's low fat too, and has five grams of sugars. i'll believe it when i -- [ both ] oooooh... what's shakin'? oops. [ female announcer ] as you get older, protein is an important part of staying active and strong. ensure high protein... 50% of your daily value of protein. low fat and five grams of sugars. see? he's a good egg. [ major nutrition ] ensure high protein. ensure. nutrition in charge! this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups.

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new alka seltzer plus-d relieves more symptoms than any other behind the counter liquid gel. oh what a relief it is. here in nerdland, we have loved watching laverne cox in "orange is the new black," portraying a transgender prisoner named sofia verset. laverne brings humanity and complexity to the role, resisting the sort of glib and farcical manner in which trans people are often presented. she drew her inspiration for the role from a very specific source. >> every day i showed up to work, i thought about c.c. mcdonald and the many trans women of color all across this nation, who are unfairly incarcera incarcerated. i am still furious, i'm angry that cc is in prison, simply for defending herself. but i'm so moved by her courage and leadership, even from behind bars. >> cc mcdonald is an

african-american trance woman, who along with a group of friends, was verbally attacked late one night by a group of white people who shouted racist, anti-gay, and anti-trans slurs. one of the woman slashed a glass across cc's face, leaving a cut that required 12 stitches. in the ensuing fight, cc stabbed one of the men in the group in the chest with a pair of scissors. he died. and cc was arrested, charged with murder, and accepted a deal in which she pled guilty to second-degree manslaughter and received a 41-month sentence. she served 19 months of that sentence, getting time off for good behavior and time served before her sentencing. she served time in a men's prison, and during her sentencing hearing, cc explained that on the night of the attack, she saw a racist, transphobic, narcissistic bigot who did not have any regard for my friends or me. that is not what she saw when

she left prison on monday. because waiting to greet cc was a group of friends and supporters, including laverne cox, who's working on a documentary about cece. and when we come back, both laverne and cece are with us live. which would be fine if bob were a vampire. but he's not. ♪ he's an architect with two kids and a mortgage. luckily, he found someone who gave him a fresh perspective on his portfolio. and with some planning and effort, hopefully bob can retire at a more appropriate age. it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. we are the thinkers. the job jugglers. the up all-nighters. and the ones who turn ideas into action. we've made our passions our life's work. we strive for the moments where we can say, "i did it!" ♪

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it instantly opens your nose up to 38% more so you can breathe and do the one thing you want to do. sleep. add breathe right to your cold medicine. shut your mouth and sleep right. breathe right. today we are honored to bring you the first television interview with cece mcdonald since her release monday. cece, a trans woman served 19 months in a men's prison after pleading guilty to second-degree manslaughter for killing a man during a racist and transphobic attack on her and her friends. cece joins us now live from minneapolis. sitting next to her, katie burgas, and here at my table in new york, laverne cox, an actress who starred in "orange is the new plaqew black." she's also a transgender activist and producer of the upcoming documentary, "free

cece," and also joining us, ray kelly, the director of the national gay and lesbian task force. thanks to everyone for being here. >> thank you. >> cece, this is your first television interview since your release. and i want to start by giving you the mic. what would you like to say to us? >> well, i'm just really blessed and excited to be back in the world, so i can begin, or should i say, continue to advocate and be a leader in the trans community and the african-american community, and the lbgt community, and to be a role model and inspiration for trans women and trans women of color. >> cece, i want you to know that we had your congressperson, representative keith ellison was on the show yesterday, and when we mentioned that you would be coming on today, we asked congressman ellison if he wanted to make a statement, and i wanted to read it to you, because i thought it was lovely.

mr. ellison says, it appears that cece mcdonald defended herself after a bias motivated attack came on her. however, any loss of life is tragic, and therefore i have sympathy for the family of deceased. cece's case reveals the disturbing intolerance of transgender citizens, and i hope through her struggle, the plight of trans people has come to greater public awareness. so i wanted you to know that your representative sees you in exactly that way, as a role model to give us an opportunity to talk about the inequalities facing trans people. >> and that's very, exciting and good to hear, because a lot of times, people don't even acknowledge or understand the lives of trans women, especially african-american trans women, because we always are faced with such hardships. and it seems like, i feel like sometimes we're just taken as props or people just see us as gimmicks and a lot of times,

we're misunderstood and, you know, people usually don't take us serious, because they see us as something other than human beings. >> the point that cece is making there, laverne, is such an important one. and is reproduced in our media, reproduced in our popular culture, over and over. and i wonder, as we think about cece's case, i keep thinking, had cece not been a trans woman, had been a african-american woman who was attacked in a racial attack, and then ended up going to jail as a result of defending herself, that the civil rights community around racial issues would likely have gotten involved in the way that the trans community got involved in time. in other words, i wonder if it was hard for the racial civil rights community to see cece as

part of the community because she's a trans woman. >> some folks in the black community did. martin hill wrote a wonderful piece, why aren't we feeting for cece that won a glad media award earlier this year. and there were some folks from the black community who have been advocating for cece. but i think cece's case really is representative of so many of the harsh realities and the intersections of transphobia, transmisogyny, racism, that face the so many women of color. our homicide is so large, and over 53% of the homicides were transwomen. 73% were people of color. 16% of transgendered people have been incarcerated compared to 10% of the rest of the population. so there's forces, systemic forces in our society that say that we're not who we say we are, that we're always the only genders that we're assigned at birth. and that we should not exist, that we should disappear. what is so powerful about cece's

story is that night, on june 5th, 2011, she said, i will not disappear. i will not be a statistic. i will not be one of those trans folks who go down and whose lives are treated as if they don't matter. when i met cece for the first time, when i was shooting the documentary, "free cece" a few months ago and i interviewed her in prison, what i was so moved by and what i said to jack garris, our director, she said, this woman knows that she is loved. and so many trans women of color out there feel that we are not loved, we are not wanted we the lbgt community, by communities of color, by women's organizations, the women's community. so we need a lot of love. brother cornel west reminds us that justice is what love looks like out in public. and i believe that the fear advocacy that tyson and the supporters of cece in minneapolis show us that the lessons are that we can advocate fiercely for trans women of color. this is what this advocacy looks

like and should look like on a national level. >> and laverne, i so appreciate you laying those statistics there, because i think it also helps us to understand in that moment, and we can't readjudicate your case, obviously, cece, but it is important for people to understand, at the moment you are faced with that violence, you are faced with it with this rate of murder and death, so the reactions to experiencing it, it's not, you know, this is not a mean hashtag, right, coming at you. this is the reality -- >> i think it's really important to note, too, that deane schmidt, the person who died that night, he had a swastika that to do on his chest. he was a known white supremacist. these were white supremacists who attacked cece and her friends that night. her life was in danger. >> of course, the difficulty is, we can't reed we can we can't readjudicate the case. there's a guilty plea. but into take your case, cece, and think more broadly, not only about the question of what

happens in that moment, but specifically about the conditions of incarceration, cece, for you and for trans women in particular. and we'll dig into that when we get back. getting out. purina dog chow light & healthy is a deliciously tender and crunchy kibble blend. with 20% fewer calories than purina dog chow. isn't it time you discovered the lighter side of dog chow. purina dog chow light & healthy. if yand you're talking toevere rheuyour rheumatologistike me, about trying or adding a biologic.

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laverne cox's character in "orange is the new black," sophia, is not just incidentally transgender, the show explores many of the issues that arise from being a transgender person in prison. the reason sophia is incarcerated is related to theft of the resources to finance her transition, and a major story arc is sophia struggling to get the hormone regime from prison officials. >> what do you want from me? >> i want to see a doctor. >> you can't go to the clinic unless it's an emergency. >> this is an emergency. >> yeah, well, we don't see it that way. was there something else? >> yes.

i'd like to report an emergency. >> so that moment is an extraordinary one, and cece, i want to come to you on this, because i want to talk to you about the realities of what it's like to be a trans woman incarcerated in a men's prison, and what that environment entails, what the dangers are. >> melissa, to be honest, i felt like regardless if it was a men or women's prison, prisons in general aren't safe at all. of course, i had to deal with the policy of discrimination and demonizing and delegitimateizing of my transness, but, you know, prisons aren't safe for anyone and that's the key issue.

for men and women, in prison, the policies are harsh and strict and very exclusive and very belittling. and that's what i felt in prison. i felt like they wanted me to hate myself as a trans woman. they wanted to force me to be someone that i wasn't. they wanted me to pretty much delegitimatize myself as a trans woman, and i was not taking that. as a trans woman, as a proud black trans# woman, i was not going to allow the system to delegitimatize and hypersexualize and take my identity away from me. >> so, i love, like, that level of resistance, at the most core human level. and yet, i want to ask about how our policies can help to assist

others in resisting these policies that are dehumanizing in this case. cece is obviously right, prison is tough for everybody but the percentage of transgender folks who end up in prison, are much higher among the committee. so the percent of people who have gone to prison or jail of all trans persons, is 16%. of black trans persons, 47%. american indian trans persons, 30%. for trans women, 21%. these are extraordinary numbers, meaning incarceration impacts trans people are the a higher level. and what miss mcdonald's experience shows us is we do need the policies, and even when they are in place, we need to change hearts and minds and attitudes. let us not forget, her experience happened in the state of minnesota, the very first state with a nondiscrimination

law. we now have major equality that protect against gender discrimination. and yet this still happened to her. we're seeing a few glimmers of hope. a long way to go in terms of creating change for transgendered people in this country, particularly transgendered people who are incarcerated. a few glimmers of hope. the los angeles police department has created a safe facility for transgendered people. just this week, we had a ruling out of the first circuit insisting or upholding a ruling that transgender people must receive the health care that they deserve, while they are incarcerated. just like everyone else. so we are seeing a few glimmers of hope, but we have a long way to go to push for change and to push not only for laws, but for changes in hearts and minds and attitudes. >> katie, let me come to you on this. >> yeah, i think this was a really interesting moment, actually, for our campaign, where we've been advocated for cece the entire time she was incars rayed. upon sentencing, everyone was

totally ready to go to bat for her, and people were definitely ready to press charges against the department of corrections, file a suit to get her out of a men's prison and into a woman's prison, if that's what she wanted. but she made it very clear to us, a woman's prison isn't going to be safe. a men's prison isn't going to be safe. prisons aren't safe for people period. and that we could have gotten wrapped up in trying to change the kind of policies that are here in minnesota, that are pretty progressive, that we would have had a chance of getting some leverage on. we could have tried to change the way that transfolks are housed in prisons, or we could have made it very clear that the only way that trans folks are going to be safe in prison is for incarceration of people to end. the only way for trans folks to be safe in prisons is for us to fight against these laws that criminalize things like drugs, sex fork, poverty. people of color are finding clear paths to work because of that. >> i feel like i just listened to katie talk and had this aha moment where i was like,a well,

of course. exactly what trans activism is to do is push against the binary set of assumptions about what a male prison or a female prison -- like, it took me a second, but as soon as katie started talking about it, right, of course. of course it would be trans6 activism that says, don't get caught up in this question whether i'm with this group of people or this. the issue is one of justice. >> and the issue too is that we are stigmatized and criminalized at every level of culture. that we trans people don't exist. we don't do statistics for census, we don't track trans people in that regard, in terms of hiv transmission, we do not track trans women. we love to track men who have sex with men. so there's constantly this denial of the existence of trans# people, and because of that denial, we don't get services and are discriminated against everywhere. we have to have policy that

acknowledges that we exist -- >> so even begin to like sort of dismantle some of the systemic discrimination that we experience. >> thank you so much. cece, i'm just going to say this as we go out. i hope that now that you're hope that you're just playing on repeat, like all day long. i hope you're playing beyonce, flawless, and being like all of the amazing that you are and reminding yourself that you woke up like this and you are, indeed, flawless. >> yes, thank you, melissa! >> thank you, so much, to cece mcdonald and katie burgas and laverne cox here in new york. and ray's organization is hosting the 26th national conference on lgbt equality, creating change, where laverne is giving the keynote address. the conference starts january 29th in houston, texas. you know, where yonce's from.

when we get back, my letter of the week. [ female announcer ] skin looking tired? wake it up with olay regenerist. formulated with a skin energizing complex, it penetrates 10 layers of the skin's surface. because energized skin is younger looking skin. ♪

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on yesterday's program, we did not get a chance to send our usual letter of the week. so today, i'm going to close the program with this week's letter. or rather, a card. on friday, first lady michelle obama turned 50, and last night, she marked the occasion with a 50 and fabulous celebration at the white house. so this morning, my birthday card is to the nation's first lady. dear first lady obama, it's me, melissa. happy birthday. and best wishes for at least another 50 years of good health, great joy, and remarkable achievement. the life you have already lived was almost unimaginable on the day you were born, because you were born into a country that was deeply unsettled. in the months leading up to your birth, the march on washington revealed the extent of black discontent with the conditions of life in america.

four little girls were murdered in the racist bombing of the 16th street baptist church in birmingham. and president kennedy was assassinated, leaving the nation stunned and a former southern senator in the oval office. your mother, marian robinson, must have felt the tremors of racial anxiety that were shaking the ground beneath her maternal feet. especially because it was racial uncertainty and violence that led her grandparents and tens of thousands of other black americans out of the south and into cities like detroit, philadelphia, cleveland decades earlier. indeed, your birth 50 years ago on the south side of chicago was the result of a great migration of african-americans determined to establish new and freer lives for themselves and their children. but here at the doorstep of your life, the violence and inequality that they fled was taking center stage. so i can imagine your mother

cradling the weight of your baby self in her arms, and wondering if her big dreams for you could actually come true. but oh, they have. by the time you can sit up on your own, lbj had signed up the 1964 civil rights act. once you were able to act, he'd enacted the 1965 voting rights act. just before you turned 2, dr. king brought his movement to your hometown, launching the chicago freedom movement and redirecting civil rights activism to issues of economic justice. as you started kindergarten, the first black women undergraduate students at princeton university arrived on campus, clearing the path that you would walk just 13 years later. the year you graduated from harvard law school, reverend jesse jackson captured nearly seven million primary votes and won 11 states and made the dream of a black american president a distinct possibility. and on the day you turned 50, you did so as the first lady of

the united states, standing as an equal partner alongside your history-making husband, and surrounded by your own daughters and the mother who must still be astonished by all you have done. little michelle robinson from the south side, studying hard and working constantly and dreaming big, but also discovering that the activism and sacrifices and policy changes brought by your community helped make it possible to reach previously unimaginable heights. maybe that's why during a white house summit on education on thursday, you took a moment to remind us that that work still continues. >> so my hope is that with this new effort, and instead of talking about our kids, we talk with our kids. i want to hear what's going on in their lives. i want to inspire them to step up and commit to their education so they can have opportunities they never even dreamed of. i'm doing this because that

story of opportunity through education is the story of my life. and i want them to know that it can be their story, too. >> and so you captured in that moment what my father has signed in every birthday card he ever sent me, the struggle continues. happy birthday, first lady michelle obama. sincerely, melissa. and that's our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. be sure to catch our show next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. we are going to have the legendary single, actor, and social activist harry belafonte here in studio. right now it's time for alex witt. >> thanks so much. the sunday talk is all abuzz with the bombshell allegations the hoboken mayor made about sandy relief funds. new reports on who exactly may have helped snowden leak information to newspapers. it may surprise you. humanizing martin luther king jr. a close look at a side of him that often gets lost in our

remembrances. and we heard about the golden globe winners. as we await the oscars, who clues on who might take home those trophies. we'll be right back. nees. [ daughter ] i've mastered the art of foot cleaning. oh, boy. oh, boy. oh, boy. [ carmel ] that drives me nuts. it gives me anxiety just thinking about how crazy they get. [ doorbell rings ] [ daughter ] oh, wow. [ carmel ] swiffer wetjet. you guys should try this. it's so easy. oh, my. [ gasps ] i just washed this floor. if i didn't see it i wouldn't believe it. [ carmel ] it did my heart good to see you cleaning. [ regina ] yeah, your generation has all the good stuff. [ daughter ] oh, yeah. this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups. ♪ stacy's mom has got it goin' on ♪ ♪ stacy's mom has got it goin' on ♪

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geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. bombshell fallout. new reaction today to the hoboken mayor's allegations against two aides of chris christie regarding hurricane sandy relief funds. securing the games. the latest on russia's efforts to crack down on possible threats to the olympics. a live report from nbc's richard engel ahead. is the retail nightmare worse than we thought? new reports today that more stores are involved in credit security. and could a 17-year-old be behind all of it? caffeine fix. which countries are the biggest coffee consumers around the world? the u.s. is not number one, by the way. you might be surprised where it lands. hey there, everyone. it's high noon here in t