i'm karen finney. new questions emerge about security at the sochi olympics and erin brokovich will join us to talk about safe drinking water. we'll also talk about the legacy of dr. martin luther king. it's all coming up. >> governor response. >> governor chris christie's camp is pushing back hard. >> new allegations of strong arming by his administration from a new jersey mayor. >> it's not fair for the governor to hold sandy funds hostage for the city of hoboken. >> christie aides shot back. >> the charges of political

motivation are flying both ways. >> mayor zimmer is a serious voice. she's a well-respected mayor in new jersey. >> shortly before she made this revelation said she didn't believe any of the hold up in the funds had anything to do with any kind of retribution. >> some things are above politics. sandy was and is one of those things. >> we still don't know what he knew. we don't know what he did. >> this is a marathon. this could go on for three to six to nine months. >> new jersey politics is rough and tumble. that's not going to change. but abusing power should not be condoned. >> my pledge to you tonight is i will govern with the spirit of sandy. as new jersey governor chris christie courts gop donors in florida, the dust is still settling after new allegations from hoboken mayor dawn zimmer, suggesting members of the christie administration told her

that sandy aide for her storm-ravaged city was contingent on her approval of a development project favored by the governor. the governor's office and others allegedly involved deny the mayor's claims. but if they're true, it's hard to overstate what a blow it would be for chris christie, who has built a national reputation on his response to sandy and his ability to work with democrats. the governor's brash style was on full display in press conferences around the storm. he toured the damage in his trademark fleece and comforted residents, and his handling of sandy earned him a glowing headline and a spot on the cover of "time" magazine. remember his public embrace of president obama just days before the election? or what about when house republicans blocked the sandy aid bill, giving us this classic christie moment. >> there's only one group to blame for the continued suffering of these innocent victims. the house majority and their speaker, john boehner. >> over the course of a year in which he won re-election and looked ahead to a possible white

house bid, christie's handling of hurricane sandy was supposed to illustrate that this hard-charging governor puts people ahead of politics. it's now a core christie narrative and part of his political identity. >> some things are above politics. sandy was and is one of those things. we respond to innocent victims of natural disasters, not as republicans or democrats, but as americans. my pledge to you tonight is i will govern with the spirit of sandy. >> so if mayor zimmer's claims are true, if the christie administration held sandy relief money hostage for a development deal linked to a political ally, could it deal a fatal blow to the governor's national ambitions? joining me now, john nichols, washington correspondent for the nation, and democratic state senator ray lezniak of new jersey. thanks to you both for joining me. >> nice to be here. >> senator, i want to start with you. "the washington post" reported this morning in the aftermath of mayor zimmer coming forward that

a handful of other mayors have also suggested that they had some fear of retribution. the post reads, what has emerged among democrats in new jersey is a feeling that those who played ball with the governor enjoyed favored status while others have been shut out. that's not an entirely unusual dynamic in politics but one that conflicts with christie's groomed appearance. are you surprised to see more mayors coming forward? >> not that the genie's out of the bottle. particularly dawn zimmer. she's not a hard-nosed politician. she doesn't even run for partisan office. she's not been involved. >> so you believe her allegations? >> she's so believable. the fact she made contemporaneous recordings of it, journals of it, which is admissible in evidence and said, i'll take a lie detector test. will the lieutenant governor do that? i don't think so.

>> given this new allegation, we now have four investigations going on. where do you see this going from here? >> in multiple directions. where i think christie's most vulnerable is the cover-up. no one would believe that this was a traffic study. chris christie believed it. he tried to cover it up. that's obstruction of justice. that's a serious offense as anything. >> and john, you wrote that this comes down to -- i mean, if you believe what governor christie has said thus far, if comes down to a question of whether christie is a bad manager or a mere deeply flawed individual. which one do you think it is at this point? >> well, i mean, the bad manager is significant enough. surrounding yourself with people who for whatever reason act in the ways it has been suggested is incredibly disqualifying for somebody who wants to bid for the presidency of the united

states. but if we go to that darker place, to that more troublesome area of politicizing your office, i.e., taking a public trust and using it for purely political purposes, and this isn't just putting your name on a sign, you know, or even hiring a potentially inept person for a job. this is taking money that is clearly intended for people that need it and saying, you're not going to get that because you're not doing my bidding. if the governor is seriously charged with this, if it extends beyond what dawn zimmer has said to a deeper investigation, if what has been said by mayors of other cities, particularly jersey city, develops into something more, there's no question that chris christie will be disqualified as a presidential contender. there's no way that you can repurpose that and get yourself into serious presidential contention. then the deeper question becomes, is chris christie in

sufficient amount of trouble then that there will be questions about the continuation of his governorship? >> well, i should mention that obviously the christie administration has denied zimmer's allegations and are pushing back pretty forcefully. but senator, i guess it is true that this really became a part of sort of the christie mantra, the spirit of sandy and this idea that he's going to work across the aisle no matter what to get things done. and it does strike me that that narrative is starting to be undermined little by little. >> it's a tale of two people. a person who had a persona of being a tough guy, a very effective, working for the people. another person who said to the national republicans, we have to do whatever it takes to win. whatever it takes to win went way over the line. that's going to be his -- >> and you said you thought he shouldn't have run for a second term. you had a different foresight. >> i actually was quoted as

saying that nothing good can come from governor christie running for re-election, including winning. i was thinking about the budget, problems that we have confronting us. i did not know anything about this scandal. certainly that's coming true. i think he's going to be really sorry that he went to no extent, had no moral compass in terms of rolling up the numbers and getting as much support as possible. >> certainly if these allegations turn out to be true. john, you've got christie as we speak essentially in florida raising money. yesterday he was raising money for the rga. today is supposed to be kind of an introduction to some of the national donors with an eye frankly towards 2016. but you're already hearing some of the same national republican donors sort of griping about concerns as to whether or not

christie is suitable. you've got brian ballard quoted in "the miami haerld." this guy as a person is horrific. 90% of major romney fundraisers outside the new york/new jersey metro area wouldn't touch christie with a ten-foot pole right now. so how's that intro going? >> it's not going so well. but what he's saying there goes back to a real deep division between the romney camp and christie. apart from the charges that have come forward on chris christie, which as you well point out still have to be explored and examined in a lot of ways, there is in this controversy, in this scandal a confirmation for some republican donors and some republican activists of a concern that was always there about chris christie. that is that this guy seems to come with very, very hard edges with a very self-serving approach to politics. and even if he is not ever charged with, you know, any

crime or any fundamental wrongdoing, it is just the notion that this is a guy who seems to be so in it for himself that it doesn't suggest an ability to really build out a party or particularly to be the kind of candidate that republicans might want in 2016. >> right. final question to you, senator. "the new york times" was reporting that some republicans are suggesting that christie needs to -- he's starting to clean house, bring in a national team. it reports he's actually talked to karl rove in recent days. that obviously sends a very strong signal about an eye to 2016. how do you think that would be received, though, at this point, given everything that's going on by folks in new jersey? >> well, first of all, i think he's going to be forced it clean house because he circled the wagons with the bridge closing took place and made up this phoney story about a traffic study. his entire office was involved in it. his close people at the port authority, his campaign people. all this is going to come out to

show this was one big massive cover-up. so you might as well get rid of them anyway because they're going to have to go. >> if he brings in people that have that sort of national focus, do you think that's going to make people think he's looking more towards 2016 than paying attention to new jersey? >> i don't think it matters. i think it's over for him. my opinion -- and he's not going to take my opinion -- >> i don't know. you had a good prediction. >> that's true. he should give up on his presidential run and concentrate on being the best governor of the state of new jersey he can with maybe a humbler and kinder attitude toward everyone. >> all right. we have to leave it there. thank you. coming up, a new video contains a fresh terror threat aimed at the sochi olympics. will president obama address the security concerns of u.s. athlete, their families it and fans? that's coming up next. >> is it safe enough, do you think, or will it be safe enough? >> you know, i'm going to be -- answer that question onne ehone. i would not go. i don't think i would send my family.

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we're following developing news out of russia where a group believed to be behind the recent bombings in the country has released a video threatening an attack at this year's olympic games in sochi. this video includes security footage of the two suicide bombings waged in the russian city of volgograd just weeks ago. nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel is live in moscow with more. hi, richard. >> reporter: good to talk to you. this is probably the most specific threat that we've seen against the games, and it's not just a video about those bombings that happened in

volgograd over new year's. it's supposedly the two bombers who carried out those suicide attacks, promising that there would be more attacks to come. this was their last testimonial, a so-called martyrdom tape that suicide bombers often do before they carry out their missions. in the tape, they say this is the first wave of attacks and more will come during the games. obviously, no specifics, but they did mention as possible targets, tourists, russian security forces, and vladimir putin. >> well, let's talk about that, richard. you know, putin was on the air waves today talking about the security measures, extensive security measures, sort of in his confidence about the security measures. how confident, though, are the people in sochi about those security measures at this point? >> reporter: the people in sochi are very confident. sochi is probably the safest city right now in russia because so much security is being

focused there. tens of thousands. we've heard a number of 40,000 bantered around. that includes the army and police and many intelligence services. they're listening to phone calls. they've set up check points. there are magnetrometers you have to go through to get near the venvenues. the question is, could a group like the bombers in volgograd, carry out an attack somewhere else in russia? this is an enormous country. it takes longer to go from moscow to new york than -- sorry. it takes longer to go from one side of russia to the other than moscow to new york. so how do you secure this amount of space? >> all right. we have to leave it there. nbc's richard engel reporting live from moscow. thank, richard. let's bring in our political panel to help hash out what this actually means for the

president. from "the washington post," nia malika-henderson. also from "the post," daniel millbank. thank you, both. nia, we heard a lot this morning from members of congress who were raising security concerns despite what putin would say. you have to believe at some point that is going to become a chorus for the president to have to weigh in and reassure people about the security situation in sochi. >> that's right. and i mean, like you said, so far you've had putin out there being very sort of brave about this and bold in his proclamations about guaranteeing safety. then on the other hand you have this date coming up where the olympics are going to start. the whole world is going to be watching. putin obviously wants to put on a good show there and a safe show for everyone. again, you imagine that president obama, who won't be in attendance in that initial delegation, will try to assure

everybody that they can send their families there, that it'll be a gathering that will be safe. i expect in the next days not only president obama but lawmakers will turn their attention to this. >> and, you know, dana, to that point, the relationship between putin and president obama has been a little contentious, you might say. >> yeah, you think? >> you know, just guessing. >> just a little. >> although the united states has offered additional assistance, i think there are fbi agents on their way to assist. dana, do you think the relationship between them could get in the way of actually -- because i think for putin, this is a big deal on the world stage. my don't think he wants to have to get a lot of help from outsiders. >> well, in this case, the interests are aligned. they're not fighting over edward snowden here. this would be awful for the world and for the united states if there is some sort of attack there or in the area. but it would look the worst for

president putin and his government. so our interests are all very much aligned in this way. there are indications that they are cooperating to the extent the russians ever cooperate in these things. you know, people would like to make this president obama's responsibility to be sure, but there's only so much that can be done because this is sovereign russian territory. we don't control the security there. we can only hope that they have -- that it's in their interest as well to do the best they can. >> oh, dana. that's never stopped them before. i'm sure we'll talk about how this is trying to take away from the health care website. >> it won't stop them from doing it. i'm just pointing out it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. >> i want to play sound of mike rodgers of "meet the press." speaking of samoa dnowden, ther new theory we heard this morning. >> i believe there's a reason he ended up in the hands, the loving arms of an fsb agent in moscow. i don't think that's a

coincidence, number one. number two -- >> you think the russians helped ed snowden? >> i believe there's questions to be answered there. i don't think it was a "gee whiz look" event. >> so nia, we heard a couple of members sort of with this theory this morning. i'm wondering, is that a growing theory on capitol hill? is that something we're likely to hear more of from republican members of congress? >> you know, there is this great debate, i think, going on out in the country about whether or not edward snowden is a hero or a traitor. you had lawmakers very much come down on the traitor side. in some polls even, people do seem to think that what edward snowden actually did possibly harmed the country as well. but in terms of these, you know -- it's one thing to float theories. it's another to actually have proof of any of this. so far, it doesn't look like there's any proof there. i mean, rodgers obviously a high-ranking official in the intelligence community on the

house side. so maybe he's seen something that we haven't all seen. but so far, these just seem to be theories. >> right. all right. switching gears, dana. looking ahead to next week, the republican national committee, i think it's their winter meeting coming up. i know it's going to be big excitement at the end of the week in washington, d.c. given what's been happening with chris christie, what do you think the conversation is likely to be in terms of his ability? is he still the one to beat hillary clinton? >> well, look, he's had a rough couple of weeks here, but i think we've got to keep this in perspective. it's an awfully long time before the election. chris christie can rise again, fall again, rise again, fall. this is a conversation that's going to go on for a long period of time. we just can't know with any confidence whatsoever. that said, you know, of course republicans when you're looking at the big names who are going to get in early and endorse the people who are going to give a lot of money and raise a lot of money, they have to be thinking about it.

this is when they start to rally behind a candidate. you're going to see somebody like paul ryan or possibly a jeb bush, some other mainstream establishment candidate as opposed to the conservative candidates who would benefit from the perceived weakness of christie. i don't think it's a real weakness. i think it's a perceived weakness. >> actually, i think rudy giuliani agrees with you. i'm going to play a sound from this morning. >> do you think it's still christie versus clinton? >> could be. could be. i can see this working out to chris' favor. i don't mean the underlying facts. they were wrong. the fact is, things go wrong. things will go wrong if he or hillary clinton become president. question is, how are they going to hand it will? he's given a textbook case in how to handle it. stand up, answer the questions, hold people accountable. >> you know, nia, one of the things that strikes me is we focus so much on what happens thus far on the damage it could do to chris christie. but when there is the

possibility, i will admit, they have said these allegations are not true. it may be that he comes through this stronger as a candidate on other side, looking better on the other side and that democrats risk potentially overreaching and he actually comes out looking like a much stronger potential candidate to go up against hillary clinton. >> that's right. and you did have the instance of debbie wasserman schultz going down to florida and sort of picketing outside of some of these events where chris christie was. probably not the best idea there. i think there is that chance for them to sort of point to a sort of stunt like to and say this is just a political witch hunt. i talked to folks in new hampshire and south carolina, republicans who also are talking about overreach, talking about the media, why are they blowing this out of proportion. in that way, even among some of those conservativeconservatives like they want to give chris christie a look. because if the so-called

mainstream media is beating up on him, that sort of makes them want to rally to his side. so we don't know yet. i think dana is exactly right. we're a ways off. i remember in 2008 working at news day in new york. we all thought it was going to be hillary clinton and rudy giuliani in the 2008 race. how wrong we were. >> yes. i worked on that race. we were so disappointed when it didn't happen. all right. nia malika henderson and dana millbank, thanks. coming up, erin brokovich on why we all should care about the west virginia water disaster. plus, honoring dr. king and the woman who helped make his dream a reality. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] old el paso frozen entrées. now in freezers.

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>> i am entirely confident that there are ample regulations already on the books to protect the health and safety of the american people. somebody ought to be held accountable here. what we try to do is look at those regulations that we think are cumbersome, are over the top, and that are costing our economy jobs. that's where our focus continues to be. [ sneezes ] [ coughs ] i've got a big date, but my sinuses are acting up. it's time for advil cold and sinus. [ male announcer ] truth is that won't relieve all your symptoms. hmm? [ male announcer ] new alka seltzer plus-d relieves more symptoms than any other behind the counter liquid gel. thanks for the tip. [ male announcer ] no problem. oh...and hair products. aisle 9. [ inhales deeply ] oh what a relief it is. ♪ she'd just grab the bounty select-a-size.

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so she makes her country fried chicken to be eaten together. i'm bethand i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store.

anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people. so you have time to focus on the things you love. ink from chase. so you can. by the way, we had that water brought in special for you folks. came from a well in hinkley. >> i think this meeting's over. >> that now infamous scene from the film "erin brokovich" may

have played itself out many times this past week in west virginia, where 7500 gallons of a toxic chemical known as mchm leaked into the elk river, leaving 300,000 without water for several days and more than 400 patients treated in hospitals for chemical exposure. even today as the do-not-drink order has been lifted, the water's smell reportedly still remains in the charleston area of west virginia. you might ask, why a company like freedom industries would be allowed to store hazardous materials in its 70-year-old tanks next to a drinking water plat on the banks of a river, given the potential for catastrophe like the spill ten days ago. don't forget west virginia is coal country. reportedly, state officials have also ignored a 2011 proposal from federal chemical safety board with new guidelines to prevent these kinds of accidents. you might also ask, how dangerous is mchm to animals or

humans or especially children? there's not a clear answer to that question because chemicals like mchm are unregulated. so not a lot is known about its impact or the four kchemicals that make up the compound. studies have shown there are more than 600 unwanted chemicals created by the interaction of water treatment disinfectants and plollutants in source water. back in west virginia, residents are still being advised that pregnant women drink bottled water until there are 's no mch detected in the water. >> if they're saying they don't want pregnant ladies to drink the water, hey, i'm not going to drink it. >> the severity of the spill in west virginia has brought much-needed attention to the issue of protecting our water

systems and understanding where the gaps are in regulations that actually make it possible for spills like this to occur. joining me now is someone who has been on the ground in west virginia, erin brokovich, the inspiration for the film bearing her name. and heather white, executive director of the environmental working group. thanks to you both. >> hi. thank you. >> erin, i want to start with you because you were in west virginia and wanted to get your take on the reaction from folks on the ground. >> when we first arrived, you know, there was obviously great concern. there didn't seem to be enormous anger at that point. they certainly had a lot of questions. they had a lot of concerns. they were being very vigilant, patient, trying to get relief water to see what would happen. it really wasn't until after the water turned on that we've really seen the frustrations increase and the concerns because the poison was still in the water and the flushing has brought actually that chemical directly to everybody's home.

so now there is growing frustration. they do not feel they're getting answers from their politicians, from agencies. they're not getting answers about the chemical. people are reporting burns and sores and nausea and blacking out. we've actually seen photos of children who drank the water, and they're getting really swollen glands, almost look like the mumps. animals are behaving ill. so the frustration really has begun once the water was actually turned back on. >> and heather, let's break this down for people. is it part of the problem that we don't really know, there isn't a lot of research on the impact of this chemical and how much per parts per million, i don't want to get too much in the weeds, but what that impact has on people, children, communities. that's part of what we're figuring out as this thing unfolds. >> absolutely, karen. that's really a huge problem here. one of the facts that i think is

really important is the only reason we know about this spill is because the chemical has a distinctive smell. it smells like licorice, which caused the residents to notify the west virginia department of the environment, which is why the inspection was triggered. what happened is that this chemical is not regulated very well. it's the toxic substances control act, a bill passed in 1976. it assumed this chemical was safe when the bill was passed. so the law does not actually require the chemical company to provide health and safety studies to the epa or these other officials. so we have a situation where the chemical goes into the river and in at least five different public health databases, we have no information -- virtually no information about the impacts on this chemical. we just have two studies, which is what the cdc warning was based on. >> erin, you know, according to the epa, more than 50 million pounds of toxic pollutants are pumped into our water systems from fossil fuel plant, most of

them coal. that suggests to me there'ses a plethora of compounds and chemicals that we don't likely know what their real impact is in our water systems. >> that's true. and that's the scarey scenario. i mean, we even saw that out in hinkley, california. oftentimes we don't always smell it. we don't always see it. yet, we continue to ingest it. and it's concerning for all of us because here's what i think we're missing. you had an opportunity way back in the hinkley situation. you have an opportunity in front of you right now to learn. unfortunately, what happens to people, especially a large population, that has all now ingested a known chemical and we continue to not follow up or listen or do anything for that matter to take a look at that population so we can learn more. this idea that we have to wait for five and ten years to pass and then suddenly it's like, oh, my gosh, we now realize this causes cancer, is absolutely

ludicrous. we know that we have pollution in our waterways all over. i have thousands of communities throughout the united states coming to me. we're watching this situation in west virginia unfold. we're going to have to start really making this our priority and taking a long, hard look at industry, where it's positioned, the proximity to our water supplies, what it does to people, have stricter regulations and safety has got to come first or we are going to continue to see this type of disaster play itself out for a long time to come. >> but erin, let me follow up quickly with you on that point. isn't part of the problem in terms of regulations, the companies themselves? i mean, in this instance, there were five more violations found in another facility by freedom industries. and now they filed for bankruptcy, which feels more like they're trying to protect themselves. there's been 20 lawsuits filed. they're going to be protected, and it's going to be the residents who will suffer. >> well, there's different avenues.

i mean, first of all, regarding freedom industries, it was absolute arrogance. it was lack of oversight. and we have to step that up. and we have to look at how it is we're overseeing it. we implement a lot of regulations and oversight. the problem is there's no follow through. we just don't consistently follow through. then a disaster like this happens. if you ask me, i've said it before and i'm going to say it again, i think a game changer for these industries is criminal charges. i really do. you know what? you file bankruptcy, you cannot get a pass on this. it's not okay. and if you're bankrupt, well, then maybe you should spend some time in jail. there are other defendants out there that i'm sure the attorneys will be looking at for any possible recourse and medical monitoring for the people who have been harmed. >> heather, final question to you. when we talk about what recommendations we should be following, erin's laid out several. there's been a piece of legislation introduced to update that 1976 law you mentioned.

i guess the question is, does it go far enough, or does it -- because it also seems like what tends to happen is we treat the crisis at hand rather than sort of the bigger picture. as we've been talking about, this is a much broader national problem. >> well, that's exactly right, karen. there's two bills that you're talking about. the first is a manchin proposal to reform the toxic substances control act. that doesn't go far enough by any means. what we need is a really strong safety standard that makes sure these chemicals that end up in our water supply and ultimately in our bodies are safe for kids. we need tight deadlines. we need to make sure private citizens and companies can be held accountable. the boxer/manchin/rockefeller bill proposed yesterday is an important first step. it would try to fill the regulatory black hole this facility is in. this facility, since it doesn't actually process chemicals, it's a chemical storage facility, doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of many different

types of laws. so this would bring all those tools together, and it would make sure that states are required to inspect these types of facilities. the fact is, we hear about overregulation, but very few nc inspectors come to these types of facilities. we need tougher regulations and more enforcement and resources in this area. it's so important to protect our environment and health. >> absolutely. we have to leave it there. thank you to both of you for the work you're doing on this issue. up next, our disrupter of the week. someone unafraid to speak truth to power and dig deeper for real answer, and he ain't done yet. [ female announcer ] it figures. on your busiest day, you see the gray. try root touch up by nice 'n easy. just brush our permanent color matching creme right where you need it. then rinse. in 10 minutes, zap those grays and get on with your day. nice 'n easy root touch up. in 10 minutes, zap those grays and get on with your day. ♪ nothing says, "you're my #1 copilot," like a milk-bone biscuit.

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oil to shed new sources on this evolving story all while appearing on "morning joe," here on "disrupt," and pretty much everything in between. on saturday, his interview with hoboken mayor dawn zimmer picked up national attention over the mayor's allegations the christie administration withheld sandy storm relief money over development projects. it was an incredible piece of reporting and an interview with serious political implications on the state and national level. now, luck or good fortunate didn't have much to do with steve's scoop. it was all hard work by steve and his production team. so for reminding us just how powerful and disruptive this business can be, "up's" steve kornacki is our disrupter of the week. and don't forget to tell us, who are disrupters in your community working for positive change? nominate them by tweeting us @msnbcdisrupt. coming up, honoring martin luther king jr. on what would

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tomorrow we celebrate what would have been dr. martin luther king jr.'s 85th birthday. a federal holiday that probably wouldn't exist if it were not for the hard work of mrs. coretta scott king, who kept the dream alive. this year, celebration comes on the heels of the 50th anniversary of the war on poverty and the march on washington. the march emphasized jobs because while the civil rights movement initially focused on ending discrimination against african-americans, dr. king also understood the connection between social and economic justice and the dignity of work. he believed that a focus on eliminating poverty could actually help bridge america's racial and economic divides and unite americans of all races who share similar economic struggles. president lyndon johnson knew he couldn't wanl his war on poverty without dr. king, so just two days after being elected president in 1964, president johnson called dr. king.

>> we're going to spend a lot of time with shriver on our poverty thing and i wish you'd give a little thought to it because that offers a lot of opportunity for our young people that have been denied. we got this behind us now, and we've got to move on the next four years and make some advances, and i'll be in touch with you. >> well, good, good. and again, let me congratulate you and say what a great moment we think this is for our country. >> joining me now, someone who was instrumental in the war on poverty, author of "the edge of politics" and joshua dubois. thanks both for joining me. >> great to be with you. >> stan, i'd like to start with you and talk about this moment lbj knew he needed dr. king to move forward in this process. how did that relationship work

out? >> well, at this point, it was really a symbiotic relationship and very important to understand. president johnson could not have moved the war on poverty without an understanding of the broad base of the civil rights movement and that potential support. so after he announced the war on poverty in addition to the call that he made to king, he also had a meeting of all the civil rights leaders in his office. and he asked them, said, i need your help, i can't do it without you. after that meeting, jim farmer called me up with the amazement of that meeting and how much johnson said he would depend on them. >> and i'm also curious, you worked on two programs in the war on poverty, upward bound and head start. what was the process of really moving these ideas and this p

policy into action? >> well, let me talk about head start. the war on poverty was developing very slowly. sergeant shriver and president johnson wanted to press for new initiatives that would come out of the office of economic opportunity and our budget. so we began to think about those initiatives and particularly about early childhood development. so sergeant shriver asked me to call a meeting of researches in early childhood development and others. three days before that meeting, i got another call from sergeant shriver. president johnson had just called him and wanted somebody else, a philosophy professor from the university of texas, to be invited to the meeting. now, think about that. i was five or six levels down. the president of the united

states knows that three days hence i'm having this meeting. you needed a president who understood how government worked in order to make the war on poverty work and to be responsive to the civil rights movement. >> and josh, it's interesting because obviously here we are 50 years later and we've been talking a lot about the war on poverty and the president talks about income inequality. we're still talking about preserving head start at this point. that's been a big fight. in addition to the importance of early childhood education. but we still have much farther to go in this work. >> that's right. we still have a lot of work to do. the fascinating thing is that king thought that even president johnson didn't go far enough. he announced just a few months before he was assassinated that if johnson would have ran for re-election, he wouldn't support him. then he started organizing a poor people's campaign all across the south to bring people who were struggling through poverty to washington to demand

an economic justice bill of rights. even then, he thought there wasn't enough being done. i thought economic justice was probably his greatest unfinished legacy. president obama is trying to do something about this now. just a couple weeks ago he promised federal support in areas of intensive poverty. clearly, there's still a lot more work we have to do. >> josh, i feel like as we honor this day, we should also always honor the woman who made it happen because it was really coretta scott king who took up the mantle of dr. king and made sure that the king center was opened and a viable entity and made sure that we -- you know, she really led the fight for the mlk day holiday. and we don't really hear about her as much. >> that's right. you know, one of the great untold stories of the civil rights movement and its aftermath is the role of women from coretta scott women to other women. so many others. i spent a lot of time with evelyn lowery, the founder of the sclc.

she said in some speeches that dr. king couldn't give, coretta would take the notes, show up on his behalf and give the speech. that's a story we never hear. there's a woman named joanne robinson, who was actually the brains behind the montgomery busboy cot. because she was employed at alabama state university and worried about losing her job, no one knew she was one of the main ones to organize the boycott. in general, the role of women in the civil rights movement is a story that still needs to be told. >> and we're going to continue to keep telling it. thank you, stan and josh. >> thank you. all right. that does it for me. thanks so much for joining us. i will see you back here next weekend at 4:00 p.m. eastern. until then, have a great week. ♪ [ male announcer ] we all deserve a good night's sleep.

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