hold on. and he did. and because of that, there is a brighter day for millions of americans. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. paper trail. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in san francisco. let me start tonight with this. anything you say can be used against you. we've all heard that. it's our american right not to testify against our self. what about the e-mails you left for a coworker? what about stray off the cuff line you texted about what has been happening at the office or a pal asked what was really up with this george washington bridge mess. all this is now being vacuumed by federal investigators in new jersey. anything you ever said on a voice mail or in a e-mail or in

a text message, any memo you wrote to anyone, including yourself, it's all being gathered in the giant electronic fishnet being thrown out there to capture evidence in the widening scandal that could tie governor chris christie's aides and appointees to crimes and they to him. nothing can stop this accumulation of fact, not even the fifth amendment. the people in this widening scandal can refuse to testify on the grounds it could incriminate them. what they can't do now is withhold or destroy evidence that they, the governor or somebody between them or perhaps even a part of this suspicious goings on knew about it. and this is tonight's story. how prosecutors can now use fear of prosecution to gather evidence in this case that now swirls and ferments around the highest office holder in new jersey. kendall coffey is a former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst. and bob ingle is with the asbury park press. and he is the co-author of "chris christie: the inside story of his rise to power."

mr. coffey, talk about the three elements here, criminality, if there was any crime committed, who might have been involved or is exposed to being charged with a crime, and what investigators might do and prosecutors might decide to do with that exposure on their part. >> well, there is still the big question of what exactly is a federal crime here. and obviously, investigators aren't sending subpoenas around unless they have some definite idea as to what the federal crimes might be. i think it's going to take development of facts to see if there are federal jurisdictional elements here. but we think they're looking at, for example, a question of whether there was some kind of extortion within a general meaning of the word of extortion that used an interstate facility such as a bridge, perhaps a conspiracy to violate civil rights. they've got things that they're looking at. they haven't obviously reached a conclusion as to whether or not they're they're. and they go from there to see who is the most implicated. but the most critical thing is to get somebody to break this

open. and to get that somebody to break this open for them, because obviously, as you said, people have fifth amendment rights. they want to get e-mails. they want to get text messages. they want to put together a paper trail that is strong enough so that they can look somebody in the eye and say you are toast unless you're willing to work with us. and as you know, early cooperation is a whole lot better than late cooperation. so anxieties are high. some people have stopped sleeping. and when they stop sleeping, sometimes they start talking. >> let me go to bob ingle and the personalities here. you have people like bridget kelly, who for the first instance after she got attacked by the governor, called a liar and stupid, she seemed to be hurt by it personally, which is understandable and the way that was getting out through her friends and associates. and now she seems to have lawyered up with a very top bright lawyer. there a change here in what she might be forced to do, having been tagged as a bad guy by the governor? >> i would think that she

certainly is vulnerable to what our colleague there said, because she is a single mom with four kids. and i would think that if the prosecutors came to her and say we have found this evidence, and we've got enough to send you up the river for ten years, unless, of course, you cooperate. in which case it would be two weeks and time off for good behavior. i think she's got a lot to be concerned about. >> because in going back to kendall coffey, because this evidence now is in the public light, which is time for some traffic problems in ft. lee. what is that -- is there any way she would defend that in court when somebody said what did you mean by that? is there any wiggle room where she could say i meant besides squeezing this guy. >> i don't think there is an explanation. one hasn't occurred for me. she has great lawyers. maybe they'll come up with something. in the meantime, she has very difficult decisions to make. so if there is anybody right

wearing the bulls-eye right now on their back and under excruciating pressure, it's her. >> let's go to the hoboken case for a second there, mr. coffey. and that's this question of whether it is a crime to basically punish somebody with a denial of state disaster funds if they don't play ball with you on a real estate deal for people you care about, some project for whatever reason are interested in, they say i'm not going to back you now because i don't think it's part of our development plan here, balanced growth, et cetera. and they say, well, the governor says if this happened, the lieutenant governor said no disaster money for you, buddy. >> well, i think here there is a much clearer picture of what a federal crime might be. you can't in effect use federal money to try to hit up a state official or local official to help a private developer. but it's a question of proof. an right now what we have could turn into a she said versus they

said. and i think what the feds are looking for and trying to move at light speed is to get some corroboration. so far they certainly haven't dismissed what they have said. but they would like to have more than just her word and some of the personal records that she herself maintained. >> but she has a number of people, including a city council member who remembered her saying at the time of what she said was the threat that that lieutenant governor guadagno not only told her what she told her, but said look, i'm going to deny. this all this now has apparently come through three separate witness, including a city councilman. and you have her diary records. contemporary diary records. >> i think the fact that there are others that said she was referencing this at the time gives her credibility, but it doesn't give the feds another witness, because so far she is the only person that could be a witness to say that she was in effect threatened by the lieutenant governor or others. so the feds want more. but obviously, they're very serious about this investigation.

>> let me go to bob ingle again. let's start with the personalities here. you have wildstein, who is also involved in this bridge shutting down. you have baroni involved in the bridge shutting. both resigned from their positions when this stink first occurred. and then you've got the lieutenant governor, who doesn't seem like a full partner with the governor. she seems more like a very almost dependent associate, someone who really depends on his political good will, which is not surprising. some lieutenant governors might be. she is not really simply elected it seems in any kind of real sense. her word against zimmer's word wouldn't seem very powerful to me in a courtroom because she seems to be very unsure of herself in public, whereas zimmer, will tell the story so many different times and with such personal confidence, you got to go with your instincts here and say zimmer is point her finger in the direction she believes it ought to go whereas the other person is trying to point the finger away from herself out of self-defense

which doesn't carry the same credibility. >> i don't know anybody who doesn't think that dawn zimmer doesn't believe what she is saying. and as far as wildstein goes, remember, his lawyer has already said that he's got a story to tell if they'll get him off the hook. which sounds to me like they may have been concerned that kelly would go first, and he wanted to push himself to the front of the line. >> well, mr. coffey, now comes the key question. where does loyalty reside, in your family? this is an easy one, a slam-dunk morally, protecting your good name from a felony rap or your loyalty to a guy who has called you a liar and stupid on national television? that's one easy one. wildstein, who as mr. ingle just pointed out has already proffered himself as a state witness by saying just give me immunity. i'm ready to give you something.

if i were the governor and his lawyers, i would be thinking this is going to be one hot case to beat here. >> i don't think any kind of loyalty is going to survive the threat of a federal prosecution. it's going to be everyone for themselves. the one thing that is critical, of course, is did chris christie do anything wrong, because the feds aren't simply going to accept an uncorroborated version of somebody who is trying to save their own hide and comes in and says yeah, christie knew all about it. they're going to look skeptically at cooperators, and they want to make sure that if they get cooperation, then whatever that cooperation is credible. and so far there is simply no information implicating chris christie. but before this is over, i think you can count on the fact that wildstein and kelly are going to be telling whatever they know to investigators, because nothing in the way of political loyalty or past friendship is going to survive this kind of pressure and these kind of frankly very serious potential consequences.

>> when richard nixon was forced to resign, mr. coffey, without any evidence he fingered the dnc for a break-in. although the tape recordings i've been able to dig out over the years showed he did finger other break-ins like the brookings institution and later the head republican to make it look like the democrats did it. now, he ordered these things on tape. but he never ordered at least on tape the break-in of the watergate, the headquarters of the democrats. the whole plumbers operation, gemstone, the whole deal. in this case, if it's shown in court that everybody from wildstein, baroni down to kelly, everybody thought that there was a deal there to go after the mayor of ft. lee, and it somehow came from the top, but you couldn't prove that the mastermind was the mastermind, if he was, can you still bring a case? do you have to have his fingerprints, the governor's fingerprints on the case? >> there has to be personal complicity. it's not enough to have people

around you doing things wrong when you're in a criminal come text. the reality is we don't know how this is going to turn out. we do know this isn't going to turn to the finish line any time soon. >> well, great. thank you so much, kendall coffey, as always. bob ingle, of course. coming up, governor christie was seen as the adult in the republican presidential field, the one potential candidate who had competence, crossover appeal, and the political chops to pull it all together. now what? if christie goes down, it will be a free-for-all for those on the right. david corn and jonathan capehart are coming here to watch the clown show. plus, when it comes to talking about women and sex, good advice to republicans might be don't. mike huckabee's discourse on women's libidos is just the latest fumble as republicans try to close the gender gap. also, family feud? we now know the people who helped elect barack obama are joining team hillary. so what happens when the loyal eye for an eye clinton aides clash with the new obama numbers

crunchers? finally, let me finish with a dangerous predicting tomorrow when tomorrow is a couple years from now. this is "hardball," the place for politics. hey guys! sorry we're late. did you run into traffic? no, just had to stop by the house to grab a few things. you stopped by the house? uh-huh. yea. alright, whenever you get your stuff, run upstairs, get cleaned up for dinner. you leave the house in good shape? yea. yea, of course. ♪ [ sportscaster talking on tv ] last-second field go-- yea, sure ya did. [ male announcer ] introducing at&t digital life. personalized home security and automation. get professionally monitored security for just $29.99 a month.

with limited availability in select markets. ♪ the investigation into new jersey senior senator robert menendez is deeper than initially thought. nbc news has learned the u.s. justice department is investigating his effort on behalf of two bankers from ecuador convicted of embezzlement down there. this as the senator is already under investigation for his involvement with a big campaign donor from florida. a statement from mendez's office calls the allegations outlandish and says the senate helped the bankers because he believed they had been politically persecuted down in ecuador. we'll be right back. whoo! ♪ oh! nice! great! [ laughs ] a shot like that calls for a postgame celebration. [ male announcer ] share what you love with who you love. kellogg's frosted flakes. they're gr-r-eat!

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welcome back to "hardball." now what? that's the question many mainstream republicans, the ones who aren't riding in the clown car are asking themselves as they watch chris christie's scandals grow and his polls

sink. as ronald brownstein put it in the national journal, quote, christie's cascading difficulties underscore the shortage of good options for voters and donors in the party's upscale managerial wing that dilemma captures a long-time shift in the republican party's center of gravity towards its turbulent populist wing whose confrontational champions such as senator ted cruz of texas often frighten swing voters as much as they inspire activists. last week interviewinged more than a dozen officials and strategists. many of the party pooh-bahs are on the brink of panic. the republicans described a palpable sense of anxiety gripping the gop establishment in the wake of christie's meltdown. it's gotten so bad, one said some donors have started looking back finally on the good old days of 2012. you know what a lot of them say to me? i think we need mitt back. well, are republicans prepared to give their party over to the

clown car in 2016? are they willing to take that right wing gamble, or will they hedge as they usually do? david corn is an msnbc political analyst, and jonathan capehart is an opinion writer for "the washington post" and an msnbc contributor. let me ask you, david, what do you hear? because i see you're smiling. i have to tell you, after years and years, decades of watching the republican party, as often as they include in their midst people of the hard right, when it comes to the high stakes of the white house, they hedge their bets. they don't run crazy people for president. your thoughts. >> well, you know you're right because the conventional wisdom has been over the past couple of decades that eventually they pick the person who the establishment wants, the person who is even in line for the nomination, as mitt romney was, as john mccain was, that seems to be the pattern out of all the turbulence comes the conventional pick. we may be reaching the point

that when that doesn't happen because the gravity of the primary electorate is still really far to the right. we do have the split in the republican party idealogically speaking between the managerial types who are conservative but call themselves pragmatic conservatives, mainly governors, and the disrupters like ted cruz. this fight is going to continue not just in 2016, but to the next two years of congress. and with chris christie gone, not only is a possible candidate gone -- let's say with him hurt. not only is a possible candidate damaged, but the bench, the disrupter bench is a lot weaker and thinner than it was before. and that's just going to, you know, affect how this dynamic plays out over the next two years. so panic is a big word, but they should be worried. >> what about the regular republican from the suburbs where a lot of republicans that a husband, for example, who talks to his wife and respects her and listens to her. how can that kind of a couple -- i guess this could also be true

with gay couples. if you have a person who is sensitive to cultural issues and is not a right winger, how can you sell that couple on the idea of a right wing candidate? that's my question? because they'll vote republican for romney, they'll vote for a john mccain. they'll vote for even a w. but they're not going to vote for a ted cruz, i don't think. >> i think you're right. that's the general election problem they have. but the thing is the people who get to decide in the primaries and caucuses really don't give a fig for that argument that you have just made, the whole electability argument. they're going to point to mitt romney. we went with mitt romney because you told us he was electable. we went with john mccain because you told us he was electable. that got us nowhere. a lot of people want the disruption, want the purity that ted cruz, rand paul, i think marco rubio probably can't do this, but maybe some others can deliver. >> jonathan, jump in here. >> yeah. >> i guess the question is the old question that has haunted the republicans since i can remember, back even before i

paid attention. i remember back in '52, dirksen gave the speech that of all people david corn just gave. we followed you and you took us down the road to defeat with dewey. we're not going to do that again. we don't want to be moderate. moderates lose. >> right. and it looks like as david said, the party has swung so far to the right that you wonder if the republican party will be able to nominate someone who could appeal to at least some of the middle of the country, the vast middle of the country in the general election. chris christie, of course the establishment loves chris christie, and we saw why. established republican party lovp loves chris christie. we saw why in his inauguration speech. he said all the things that a national governing republican leader should say, compromise, reach across the aisle, work with democrats, but still work with them, not give up your principles, and governor from a republican/conservative

standpoint. but the problem is chris christie is viewed with such suspicion by the base of the party that i don't think he could even get the nomination. and i was talking to a republican friend of mine this week. and the person said maybe what needs to happen is that the party has to lose 40 states plus the district of columbia before the base of the party realizes that the path that they're going down is a losing one for decades. >> you know what i've learned? they never learn that. anyway, the atlantic's peter beinart argues that rand paul is emerging as the candidate to beat in 2016. he benefits from his father ron paul's infrastructure in many early primary states. but beyond that, the party seems to be, as david corn said, moving more and more in the direction of the rand pauls on key issues. quote, paul is gaining acceptance within the republican mainstream. it's just possible that 2016 could be another 1964 years when

the republican establishment proved weak and pliable enough to allow a republican to come in from the cold. we're going to talk more about it in the end of the show about hillary clinton and how she seems to be putting it together, trying to put it together without any real democratic opposition. could this really be a year in which the republicans are just in a huge kerfuffle, completely confused, end up going to the crazy right, if you will, or pretty crazy right, and hillary clinton marches in without any general election, really. something like goldwater losing to lbj after kennedy was killed where the country made up its mind months before the election. >> well, i think anointing someone a front-runner, even predicting what is going to happen two years from now is a mug's game. rand paul has some obvious assets. and the scenario you just described could possibly happen. i still think, you know, the chris christie case shows us that any of these politician who hasn't been vetted nationally can go up in flames or down in

flames at a moment's notice. so anyone who you pick as a possible front-runner can -- >> especially when it gives mother jones afoot. >> videos out there, who knows what is out there on rand paul and everybody else. but the thing is, rand paul may be looking good now because of ted cruz. i mean, rand paul would have been the far, far right. >> you're right. you're so smart. >> of the disrupters and the crusaders were it not for ted cruz. so he is looking a little bit more moderate. and so at some point the establishment may try to, you know, put him in their warm embrace and bring him over a few steps to see if he can work. but also, i think if chris christie can't come back, you're going to start hearing a lot of talk about jeb bush. maybe not from his mom, but from other people. you know, the karl roves of the world, the koch brothers have to go somewhere. >> anyway, nice haircut, david. thank you for coming on tonight. i love the haircut. and thank you. i've always watched these little things. and jonathan, quick question, yes or no. will it be las vegas and a long shot on the right, or will they hedge their bets and go to the

center? >> you know, i think that they're going to go for someone far right conservative. chris christie doesn't stand a chase. >> thank you. david corn, thank you, jonathan capehart. whatever happened to the senate republican running down in texas? he is going mia 679 the sideshow is next. this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] this is the story of the dusty basement at 1406 35th street the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall off roble avenue. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins.

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a top republican said chris christie should resign as chair of the republican governor's association. yeah. christie refused, said i've made it a matter of principle to never try to get out of a chair. >> that was conan o'brien in on the latest developments out of the garden state. jokes about chris christie have been disrupted as they tern

their attention to justin bieber's arrest. the 19-year-old pop star who is a canadian is now at risk of being deported. according to jimmy kimmel, the whole thing may be just political posturing. >> he did admit to police that he drank alcohol, smoked pot and took prescription drugs that night, which that may have been his way of announcing that he is running for mayor of toronto. >> and house speaker john boehner paid a visit to "the tonight show" last night. aside from calling vladimir putin a thug and saying jeb bush would make a great president, he decided to finally dispel a rumor that has dogged him for years. >> we have a family photo. let's show the family photo. there you go. is that you right in the front there? >> i'm the dark one on the bottom there. >> you seem to be in the sun a lot more than the other kids. >> yeah. >> now, i know you're in college -- >> listen, listen. >> what's that? >> i ride a bike. i cut my own grass, i ride a bike. my mother is dark complected. so i'm a little dark. >> so there is no tanning bed?

>> there is no tanning bed, no spray thing. never, not once. never, ever, nothing. >> finally, republican congressman steve stockman of texas is the tea party challenger to senator john cornyn. but with that primary less than two months away, the candidate is nowhere to be found. he has been missing in action so long that his supporters are beginning to wonder what exactly is going on. well, according to the associated press, stockman, quote, has made virtually no public appearances in texas as questions mount about his campaign finances. now he's stopped showing up for his day job. stockman has missed 17 straight house votes since january 9th. furthermore, stockman's staff won't say where he is. they have ignored more than six weeks of e-mails, telephone messages, and social media posts from the associated press and other news outlets. but we may have an explanation soon. according to a tweet from his campaign late last night, we will find out where he has been this coming monday. up next, the lesson mike

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hi, i'm richard liu. a judge has ordered a texas hospital to remove a pregnant brain dead woman from life support. the hospital has until monday night to remove the woman from a ventilator due to the ill health of the fetus she is carrying. former virginia governor bob mcdonnell and his wife were in court earlier. they pleaded not guilty to federal corruption charges. and stocks, well, they sold off for a second straight day on the global growth concerns. the dow falling back below 16,000. now back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." if republicans want to close the gender gap with democrats, and they say they do, they might want to stop talking about things like legitimate rape or promiscuity or sex in general. and as everyone now knows, mike huckabee entered the republican oops hall of fame yesterday with his head-scratching comments about women's libido and uncle sugar. for those who need it, here is a reminder of what republican men were saying during the 2012 campaign. >> if it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. >> i think even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that god intended to happen. >> you know, back in my days, they used beyer aspirin for contraception. they put it between their knees. >> here is mike huckabee who

didn't forget it. they're still doing it. here he was yesterday. >> if the democrats want to insult the women of america by making them believe that they are helpless without uncle sugar coming in and providing for them a prescription each month for birth control because they cannot control their libido or their reproductive system without the help of the government, then so be it. let us take that discussion all across america because women are far more than the democrats have played them to be. >> republicans themselves acknowledge they have work to do with women voters. you think? in their autopsy report last year, they said that and i'd say some of the early returns this year are not so good. joining me right now is the grio's joy reid and sam stein. both are contributors here at msnbc. joy, what do you make of this? we're hearing from reince priebus, and we'll hear from him in a minute. i want you getting in here. this idea, well, they're just saying what they mean to say but saying it wrong? >> yeah. i think that reince priebus,

never have i seen the chairman of a party committee less listened to than reince priebus. no one seems to be listening at all to what he claims he wants them to do, which is rebrand the party. and i think that the reason he has to parse it the way that he is because mike huckabee isn't misspeaking. he is saying what he absolutely believes. and the religious conservatives who are asserting themselves in the republican party actually do not support the idea, a lot of them, of birth control being legal. we'll remember rick santorum said that, that we can't go around saying there is nothing wrong with contraception. the problem is the vast majority of women, the vast majority of people period believe that there is nothing wrong with contraception and it should be legal. >> joy, just to be fair, i got my way of getting it. how did you get that out of huckabee's words yesterday, that he is against birth control? >> well, what he was essentially saying is that uncle sugar, which is essentially -- it's kind of the way people describe uncle sam in terms of a pimp, to

be honest, if you look it up in the urban dictionary, that women should not be having to be relying on uncle sugar to doll them out birth control because they can't control themselves. this is something that women are essentially begging the government for. it's absolutely insulting. and it's not that that comment states that he says birth control should be illegal. but we do know on the religious right, as a matter of religious principle, there are a lot of people on the right who are not just against abortion, which is absolutely arguable. a lot of people have problems with the idea of abortion, but they do also have a problem with contraception. and that's the novel piece that a lot of particularly younger women were not ready for and didn't know before they started to see this assertion by the religious right. >> sam, i would normally think that was a leap of imagination, but i got to tell you, i had the same reaction listening to the former governor of arkansas when he said the government's providing women with prescriptions each month for birth control, providing them with prescriptions, like it's the government that gave them the medical license to get

prescription drugs. nobody said the government gives prescriptions. it may subsidize the purchase of birth control pills, but the right and the medical reason to get birth control is up to a doctor and a woman. why did he say the government gives prescriptions? did he choose that accidentally or is he playing to the crowd on the hard culture right that joy just mentioned? >> i think he is playing to the crowd. i think that's pretty obvious. there are legitimate conservative criticisms with the contraception mandate, and they're launched from the standpoint that you shouldn't mandate that insurance companies coffer this thing. i happen to think that they're a little bit shortsighted. but what mike huckabee did here is essentially conflate two things. and also he dismissed what a legitimate use of contraception for nonsexual activity. contraception plays a role in medical care. in fact, i think it's something like 58% of women use it nonexclusively for nonsexual activity. so when you start putting these two things together, start conflating the issue of

contraception and take it out of the realm of legitimate juice, then you're sending signals to your base. and i think that's what mike huckabee was doing yesterday. >> rnc chair reince priebus perhaps alluding to huckabee said the republican positions are sound. it's the delivery, and they've got to work on that, he said. listen to his nuanced statement here. >> i said many times before that the policies and principles of this party are sound. however, as we look to grow the ranks of our party, we must all be very conscious of tone and choice of words when we communicate those policies effectively. >> and doubling down, last night former senator and presidential candidate rick santorum reacted to huckabee's comments his way. let's listen. >> mike speaks off the cuff, as some of us are known to do, and probably chose different words to communicate that.

>> back to joy. so i guess it comes down to what do they really mean? and i think it comes down to topic selection. and one thing i have always learned, it took me years to discover, if you want to win an argument or control it, pick the topic. you say budgets, republicans tend to win. you say taxes, they tend to win. you talk about health care, democrats usually win the argument or education, they tend to win the argument. why would they take sex and libido, why would they do this? you got to ask why would they keep selecting birth control, rape, these topic selections. it's not the miswording, it's where the mind is going. why is the mind going to these areas? >> yeah, exactly. especially since, you know, this debate and for the religious right started off on the issue of abortion. how it migrated to birth control i think is -- is a head-scratcher for a lot of people. but if you just parse why a lot of conservatives oppose the mandate, if you just isolate

that part of it, they don't oppose the mandate just because they don't like the federal government giving subsidies to people, they oppose the mandate because there are groups of people who are morally opposed to contraception itself who see it as an extension of abortion. and because these groups are saying that the government then should not have a broad mandate that somebody with a religious opposition to contraception itself should have to provide insurance for their employees that might include contraception. so it still gets to the same basic opposition to the underlying thing, which is contraception, the ability to control reproduction. but the way women read that is a group of people who are attempting to impose their own religious morality, their own religious beliefs on everyone else by trying to strip away a benefit that helps a lot of low income women, that allows women to family plan, and that actually becomes an economic issue. when you can control your reproductive health, you actually can improve your economic condition. so women take it very, very negatively.

>> and chris -- >> i hear that every day around here. but anyway, huckabee's comments have been seized upon by some democrats, obviously, particularly those in tight senate races. in arkansas, for example, the democratic senatorial campaign committee tied huckabee to gop senate candidate tom cotton down there. quote, it's a shame like republicans like cotton and huckabee want to push divisive social issues that would roll back women's health care rights instead of focusing on growing the economy and creating jobs. well, in kentucky, the campaign of alison lundergan grimes put out this quote. mitch mcconnell's cringe-worthy record of standing up for kentucky's women and families effortlessly aligns with mike huckabee's extreme anti-women rhetoric. and debbie wasserman schultz put out this statement. hike huckabee has no idea what he is talking about. if this is the gop rebrand a year later, then all they have

gotten is a year older. sam, this question mark here. i looked at the numbers that barack obama probably owes his reelection to women voters, as often is the case for democratic winners, and i also know there will be more women voters in 2016 when the republicans thirst to get the white house back, and hillary clinton looks now to be the nominee or the potential nominee of the democratic party. who are they aiming for among the ranks of women voters with this kind of talk? >> that's a really good question probably best directed to reince priebus or mike huckabee. i think you sort of hit the nail on the head with your last question which is you choose the topics you want to choose. and in this case, they're playing on unfriendly terrain. and i talked to a senior republican who said, you know, it would be best if lawmakers just didn't talk about this stuff at all, because it's going to inevitably be resolved in the court system. but then again, it's not just about contraception. there are a whole host of issues where republicans get in trouble with women. for instance, with respect to the affordable care act, there is a mandate that requires

insurance companies to cover maternity care. this has been a big bone of contention for republicans because they say it's driving up the premiums on everyone else. well, imagine if you're a woman who is just getting health care for the first time and you see republicans say, well, you know what? forget maternity care. it's costing too much. let's toss it out. if i were a woman voter, i would be a little bit peeved by that. >> thank you so much, joy. have a nice week. >> you tire, and you and sam both, amazing discussion. i tell you, it keeps coming back, these comments by the republican right. up next, culture clash. what will happen now that the old school eye for an eye clinton political machine is teaming up with the young tech savvy numbers crunchers of the obama era? they're already putting it together. how are they getting together? this is already happening. and this is "hardball," the place for politics. [ fishing rod casting line, marching band playing ]

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president. and the old guard of an eye for an eye clinton loyalists will have to merge with the tech savvy team from the obama camp, and a culture clash is inevitable. a "new york times" magazine piece called planet hillary examines the many layers that complete the clinton orbit. "the new york times" said, quote, over the decades, they have operated like an arkansas tumbleweed, collecting friends and devotees from kindergarten class to the white house to the senate and beyond. james carville has compared the clinton world, perhaps not so originally to an onion. said to exist in the third or fourth layer. smelling a whiff of another national campaign, old faces and new ones are uniting around the former secretary of state. but can they run a smart, tech savvy campaign and refrain from the personal destruction, stepping out of the past into the future that yesterday could prove to be hillary's biggest challenge yet. she needs a team that will help

her do that. harold ford is a former democrat congressman from tennessee and and msnbc political analyst. and stephanie rawlings-blake is the mayor of baltimore. congressman ford, it seems to me to to put it bluntly that the old games starting in '92 to get elected president was like roller derby. make sure bob kerrey is out of the race and you're the nominee of the party. and then along came obama, who didn't necessarily run a negative campaign, he ran a campaign based on state-of-the-art numbers krur s crunching where he was able to find delegates through caucuses in states like the dakotas and places out west and beat hillary clinton before she could get in the name by modern number crunching. how did the clintons 2016 pull it altogether? >> two things, chris. one, you have to have a reason for wanting to run. you have to have a set of ideas

that you believe can help the country grow again and make the 21st century a global century with america leading it. mrs. clinton will be able to craft a message around that. to your point around the mechanics, there's no doubt the campaign in '08 in my estimation didn't really prepare for the long run. did not expect to have to endure the kind of incoming they did from a campaign bilike senator obama's. i think one of the things they'll do is they will be prepared for and should be prepared for a long drawn-out primary and very tough general. it's unlikely they'll get a long drawn-out primary but you have to be prepared for it. be prepared to fight in january and february and march and states that in '08 she was not prepared to fight in. but she has to understand why she wants to be president and be able to lay out clearly and crisply how her experiences over the last 40 years in politics will lead to a stronger

education plan, a stronger economic growth plan and allow us to get beyond these massive income inequalities that pervade the country. i know my good friend the mayor in baltimore is battling day in and day out. >> how do you be the change candidate? you have to recognize what change people want. you have to figure that out in politics. what's the mood, the zeitgeist starting in 2016 and you have to figure out how you can be that change. unless you do that, you're yesterday. >> well, clinton -- hillary clinton wouldn't be the first candidate to rebrand herself, to recreate herself. and i don't think it's that difficult. you have to be the present candidate and that means you have to understand, as harold ford said, what's important for the future of the country. i think hillary clinton does that. the good thing about the democratic party is so do many of our national candidates. the national figures that people

are talking about as our bench, we get it. we understand the meat and potato issues of the american people. we're not talking about the issues of abortion, we're not talking about, you know, trying to take away women's rights, we're focusing on creating jobs. we're focusing on fixing this income inequality and working to rebuild american cities. that's what's important. that's what people care about and we have a bench that understands that. >> you know, congressman, what made bill clinton interesting in '92 is where he broke from the pack. he said i am no nafta. he wasn't just a union-driven, labor union driven candidate. we didn't always -- he did the break with cultural extremism as he saw it. he was willing to break it and take positions that made him not just the guy who represents all the democratic constituencies he inherited, but something plus.

isn't that always the challenge for hillary coming up? >> there's no doubt about it. the mayor in baltimore has great ideas on transit and how to create jobs and make her city more efficient. it would behoove those around her to understand what she's doing and some of her peers around the country. in 1992 bill clinton was a champion with the help of al fromme championing the earned income tax credit which encouraged people to work, encouraged employers to hire people. we've got to find those new ideas, those new things that we as democrats can hang our hat on and more importantly that we can trumpet and champion. i think he'll be a campaigner for the future and candidate for the future and she'll bring to life what her husband has always said, that campaigns and politics are always about tomorrow and she will be challenged to put that forward. >> the earned tax credit was to get people earning money and off

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let me finish tonight with this. there's something odd about the current outlook for 2016. wee one political party with a clear-eyed future. it knows who will run for president. grandly assumes that perpendicular will be the nominee. we have a second political party with no idea what's coming tomorrow. it's totally in the blind who it will nominate for president come

2016. the weird thing is not that it's happening but that the first party, the party with its plan in place and its nominee is the democratic party. it's the republicans who have no earthly idea what the future will hold or even what candidate will bring that future. excuse me if this doesn't make me a little wary because if there's one thing i've noticed over the several decades i've paid attention to presidential politics, it is how phenomenal it is. you can't predict one event by remembering how an earlier event went. the safest bet on the future is to bet on the strongest, most gung-ho political team. one that plans smart, jumps on opportunities and never lets the other side up for air. there's a reason why americans are no good at carnations. we've had no successful experiences with them. even dwight eisenhower, the general who received the nazi surrender, had to fight for the nomination. even ronald reagan had his moment after the first debate when it looked like he might let his relations slip between his fingers, so look for trouble. expect trouble. expect the crazy.

expect the unexpected because the oddest thing in the world would be for this parade in 2017 to continue like the turning of the earth. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. well, mike huckabee is not backing down. he is doubling down as we enter day two of libido-gate. >> some of you may become somewhat uncomfortable as parts of this film unfold, but i think if you will listen carefully, you will agree that the concepts will contribute to the rearing of a mature person who has a healthy, responsible attitude towards the sexual side of his life. >> given the gop's track record of talking to women about their own reproductive health, the rnc's winter meeting was the perfect opportunity to roll out a new, more female friendly republican party.