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you have to tell a good story, and if that story is the center of your campaign, you had better hope that it stands up to close scrutiny. case in point. texas state senator wendy davis, whose gubernatorial campaign suffered its first serious blow this past week. "the dallas morning news" published an article raising questions about some of the details of davis' compelling life story. now, her story goes like this. a single mother, 19, divorced and living in a trailer, went to community college and eventually on to harvard law school. and later, the texas state senate. the story paints her as a success, a kind of hard-fought, her humbled beginnings, something that could connect her to voters in texas, especially women. here she is sharing that story with nbc's maria shriver for the "today" show. >> reporter: by 19, she was getting divorced and living in a mobile home park. you haven't been back here since you lived here. >> that's right. >> reporter: when you look at this place, what are you feeling

right now? >> a homecoming of sorts. i've tried really hard not to put this in the rearview mirror. i've tried to keep it present. >> so the story is true. but as of all political narratives, the complications have been streamlined. "the dallas morning news" reported that davis lived in a trailer for only a few months. she was separated from her husband at 19 but not divorced until 21. her second husband helped put her through law school, even cashing in on his 401(k) to do so. and her daughters lived with him during her education. when they divorced, he was awarded full parental custody, and she paid child support. now, there was something particularly, mm, delicious about this new information for davis' opponents, a flaw in her narrative. you see, davis is a narrative candidate. her life story is the backbone of her campaign, one of her greatest assets as she tries to convince texas voters to come out to polls and make her the first democrat elected to statewide office in 20 years.

opponents saw an opportunity to aim for the heart of her campaign, and they took it. the campaign of her likely republican opponent, texas attorney general greg abbott, put out a statement that davis, quote, systematically intentionally and repeatedly deceived texans for years about her background. and conservative pundits sensing blood in the water, from one of the democratic party's rising stars, attacked. she was called a fake, accused of abandoning her children and using her second husband as a sugar daddy. narratives. narratives that are potential political strengths have become liabilities before. take 2004 when then-senator john kerry's presidential bid failed in large part due to a successful campaign to undermine his greatest political asset, the story of his military service in vietnam, and subsequent opposition to the war there. he presented this story. john kerry as war hero throughout his campaign. >> i'm john kerry, and i'm reporting for duty.

>> and then, came the swift boat veterans for truth, a group of vietnam veterans who had served in swift boat units. they questioned kerry's war record. they accused him of lying to the american people about how he got his medals and betraying his fellow veterans in testifying to congress against the war. it was an effective attack on the candidate's narrative and one the kerry campaign did not respond to quickly enough as a mortal threat. these checks, or attacks on narratives, are not one party. senator marco rubio's personal story claimed his parents fled cuba, exiled from castro's regime. but a year after he won, reporters found parents had left cuba two years before castro came to power. one could argue that his role was tarnished then, but the floridian is fighting hard to reclaim his narrative as the some of immigrants who seized on

the american opportunity to offer a better life to their son. the lesson here is clear. when you ron on a narrative, a compelling life story, a true tale to one day base the movie on, that narrative is ripe for scrutiny. your opponents, or the press, will find the "t" you didn't cross, the date you fudged, the details you left out, and they will use it, no matter who you are. democrat, republican, man, woman, son of immigrants, war hero, single mama, you are susceptible to these types of attacks when you seek a powerful elected office, and yet, many have noted the particularly gendered nature of the attacks against davis. she is painted as a bad mother who abandoned her children, so the question i have for my panel today. are these attacks sexist? or is it just welcome to the big political leagues for wendy davis. joining me now is laura flanders host and founder of grit tv, and jonathan hart for "washington post." beth cooley, senior editor of

msnbc.com and kelly ditmer at the center for american women a and politics at rutgers. welcome to all of you. >> thank you. >> beth, are these attacks against wendy davis sexist? >> yes. but i'm going to start with your first supposition, which is, is wendy davis playing in the big leagues? let's start there. she is. she's running for governor of texas. >> right. >> she is in a serious, big-time political situation, and she's got to expect attacks. it's not a huge surprise this was going to come. it's lucky for her it's coming early, and that there's not a whole lot of foundation to it. okay, she was married -- divorced at 19 versus 21. not that big a deal. however, the gender nature of the attacks really did shock me. in the story you referenced, "the dallas morning news" the reporter, wayne slater, who's fantastic, has an unnamed person in the story, who says nothing is going to stand in wendy's way. not her children, not her marriage, nothing. an unnamed person allowed to say that about her in this story.

so clearly it's gendered. the thing that resonates with a lot of people is the notion that she would leave her children and that her husband, her second husband, paid the last part of the loan for her education right -- the day before she moved out. >> yeah. >> those are the thens that resonate out of the story, not so much whether she was 19 or 21 when she divorced her first husband, and that's the piece that's clearly gendered. >> so, kelly, you know, this is -- these are two different claims. i really like how you put this, beth. it is one thing for attacks to be gendered. it is another thing for them to be sexist in their assumptions. so as i sort of watch this unfold, i thought, okay, you know, if you are -- if you're a journalist, you just follow whatever story you think there is, and so you follow it. and then, opponents are going to use whatever -- whatever cognitive hook they think they can hang on you in order to get their -- you know, the opponents to show up for -- it's more of

a -- like activating latent sexism than a sexist attack. does that make sense? >> that's exactly right. that's what you've seen in articles after, the blogs, twitter, everything social media, in response to the slater article, right, is now doing these trips that we see continuously that are sexist. it raises a, is she a gold digger? is she a bad mom? is she a bad mom because she left her kids or put ambition before her children? i think then it raises the other question of authenticity. is she single mom enough? there's sort of a question, like, what does that mean? >> how long do you have to live in the trailer park before you get to count that, yeah. >> and on the flip side, read an article this morning, is she feminist enough? so if she did have help going to school, if she did have help from a husband in getting her -- and helping to pull up her boot straps or whatever, is that feminist enough? so i think you're right that the secondary critiques of these are more sexist than the first sort of gender undertones that were

definitely in the article. but they're now taken advantage of. >> jonathan, part of the reason i wanted to tell the davis story, embedded with the kerry story and the marco rubio, i can similarly say that the critiques of rubio's narrative is he's not immigrant enough, or not fleeing castro enough, right? and certainly, that the gendered nature of the attacks against the swift boat veterans truth against kerry is he was not man enough, he was not soldier enough. there's a part of me that shrugs, well, politics is blood sport. it's nasty. if you're a woman, that's one of the things they'll come for. >> well, right. one of the number one thing for your opponent is to take your strength and then kneecap you with it. >> yes. >> we saw it with kerry. we're seeing it with marco rubio, and to great effect with wendy davis. so part of me is, yes, this is -- welcome to the big

leagues. you're not only running for governor, you're running for governor of texas, and at a time -- >> and a midterm, when this is the race. >> everyone is watching it. but, also, in a state where democrats are hungering to turn that state from red to at least purple. so there's a bigger then going on here than wendy davis. of course, her opponents are going to push very hard to take her down in any way possible. now, i was thinking, as you were talking about, you know, these attacks, these gendered attacks on wendy davis, i was thinking, is there a male equivalent, a guy who was married to one woman, she then helps him go to school, stands back, allows him to do his political career, he dumps her unceremoniously, and goes on and gets another wife, rises in power, and everyone thinks, hmm, you know, there's nothing wrong with this guy. me just -- he's a guy. now be i'm thinking of newt gingrich. but i don't think he's the only one. >> yeah, yeah. >> he's not the only one. >> so i want to take a break.

but i want to come right back, as soon as -- after our break, because i want to ask if we are actually -- we are weakening dave physical part through this particular discourse, so there's the within thing, this is bigger than, so we're talking about it ourselves. but i also want to talk about how wendy davis herself has had -- she's got full, like, texas swagger in her response, and i don't want to turn her into a little cowering woman in the corner if she is, in fact, not that person. ♪ [ male announcer ] what kind of energy is so abundant, it can help provide the power for all this? natural gas. ♪ more than ever before, america's electricity is generated by it. exxonmobil uses advanced visualization and drilling technologies to produce natural gas... powering our lives...

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so we're back, and we're talking about wendy davis and some of the attacks on her narrative. i want to talk, laura, about how she has responded. in her written response, she said, mine is a story about a teenage single more who struggled to keep her young family afloat. it's the story about a young woman given the opportunity to

work her way up in the world. it's a story about resiliency, sacrifice, and perseverance. you're damn right it's a true story. i was, like, okay, we're having hand wringing angst in the pundit world, and, i'm, like, here we go. >> she stood 13 hours in pink sneakers filibustering, and a woman fighting for education reform. this is a woman who knows what she's taken on. these kinds of attacks while we don't endorse them, yes, they're sexist, it's wrong, a double standard, it should stop, they go back to, you know, geraldine ferraro, woodall in the 1880s, we can handle this stuff. we're women in america. on the other hand, what are we losing as americans? a, the focus on narrative, it used to be style over substance, and now it's nothing over substance. it used to be you were laying yourself open to gotcha journalism, and now it's got nothin' journalism that runs the news cycle for weeks.

the point is, would he have a media culture right now that has an incredible, you know, appetite for these kinds of stories, and very little appetite for her policy on education, reproductive rights. we're all suffering because of this. do we want this to be the terrain of our political debate? no. >> right. >> and we don't want it for sexist, racist, classist reasons. we've got a screwed up government because, you know, a whole lot of talent doesn't want to engage. our media suffers, too. this is a much bigger problem. wendy davis can handle herself. i think we're, in our democracy, are the ones in trouble. >> kelly, i see you wanting to get in there. i know part of what the senator you work with that does is prepares women to run for office. you do the annual ready to run. and i'm wondering if you hear from women who are -- who we know -- so what we know men and women, equal call qualification men, several times, you'd make a great mayor, be a good president. but the women haven't. we actually have to recruit

women into the process. do these kinds of moments discourage women from entering? >> i think so. and i think you're right. what we see is women need to be recruited to run, and men don't. men wake up one morning and say, i'd make a darn good governor. >> yeah, really. >> it's harder to get women to run. so they see the political landscape. not only do they not see it as a place not to get things done in light of what's happening now in washington and elsewhere, but they see the attacks and wonder, can i handle it. i think we see women are able to handle it. the difference in this sort of gendered nature of the attacks and the effects of the attacks are that we know women candidates, especially running for governor, president, are covered in a way where the traits and family and appearance are covered in much more -- with much more frequency than issues and substance. that's a challenge. and it does affect voter perceptions. we don't know voters take them as seriously. it's a challenge of how often do they use the narrative, but how often is the narrative used about them when it's not by

choice? that's a challenge for women. and a secondary challenge for women, is that if you go negative against a woman, you say she's not honest and ethical, that goes against gender norms of her honesty and ethics, so you knock her off her pedestal. that's a challenge. >> it goes back to the barbara leaf foundation, that shows that, and i'm worrying were they pink sneakers or red sneakers -- >> no, you're accurately remembering it, i'm sure. >> and again, another thing important for us to note in all of this, this discussion about our attitudes toward women running for office, we cover in a completely different part of our media brain than the family medical leave act, our coverage for women with equal pay. our coverage of domestic workers having any rights. let's look at how these attitudes get expressed in our policy, not just in our coverage -- >> amen. we'll do that when we come back, because i want to go to planet hillary and let jonathan take us there. he's got some plains about the

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wendy davis may be learning what happens when women run, but former secretary of state hillary clinton is at the center of the bizarre constellation that emerge when is american media become obsessed with the idea that this particular woman might possibly, you know, maybe be thinking about running. it's still a full two years before the presidential primary season, and clinton has already been artistically interpreted as me ma-- emasculating, and wondering what it would mean if she returned to political orbit. male politicians have been subjected to political rendering. is it any different when the candidate is a woman? jonathan, you encouraged us to think about the weiner covers and the spitzer covers, as

emblemattic, as when the men were skewered. >> yes, for their actions not their ideas. >> yeah, exactly. that's a very good point. when i alerted you to those headlines, i was thinking of those headlines in relation to the wendy davis story and the sexism -- the sexism angle there and whether this was -- the treatment of wendy davis was unfair. with hillary clinton, we've been going through this now since 1990, '91. >> right, i know, a lot. >> since bill clinton said he wanted to run for president. you know, while i think hillary land is cognizant and very concerned about the way she's portrayed and whether there's a sexist tinge -- >> hillary planet. >> yes, i'm sorry, hillary planet. >> yeah, planet instead of land, yeah, exactly. i think they've been in the big leagues for so long, that "new york times" magazine cover will not concern them one bit. >> let me tell you.

let's talk about tough women. hillary clinton, there is nobody tougher in politics. i covered her campaign in 2008. she's incredibly tough, driven, smart, and incredibly nice. she's been through all of this. there's very little left to uncover about hillary clinton. she now sort of occupies a new place in our politics, than even when she did in 2008. and so, she's certainly going to be the subject of sexist attacks. that picture of the woman's heel with the guy hanging off it, case in point. she's gotten to a level, i think, she's not simply going to be evaluated as the woman candidate. she'll be evaluated -- the problem for her will be the inevitable candidate. >> okay, beth, so there's a question of how tough she is, right? but there's also the question of whether or not the attacks themselves then generate a positive backlash for her. so jessica writing today for the "washington post," writes, if the me someny flows as freely in 2016 as it did during clinton's first presidential run, the

republicans are doomed. they're already in trouble with female voters and it wouldn't take much to erode that standing further. so almost saying, please, right, please attack, and attack particularly in the sexist way, because the pushback could actually be good for her with women voter who, you know, may not -- she's tough, but it doesn't mean all of us want to vote for her. >> and there was kerfuffle last year when it was too old. and that brought up a huge backlash, now, you're going to make all sorts of older women. yeah, it will be to her favor to a large degree. >> i'll be just a -- what do you call, a scratched record, look at that imagery. i'm with you, hillary can handle this, just like wendy davis can handle this, blah, blah, blah. but that imagery. we have never had a woman president. even one running gives you the image of zero sum game, and i want us to look at that same way of thinking as we think about our policy making, around working women, around

working-class women, around equal pay, around the lily led better act. what we're seeing there is a sexism that, yes, is personal but also deeply political and goes way beyond our political candidates. >> and it ignores -- we keep talking about what's happening to hillary in this moment. it ignores how much enormous privilege and access she has as compared to the women who are subjected to the policies that you're talking about, right? yes, hillary clinton is a woman, but also the former secretary of state. she also was second in a presidential primary run. she was also the first lady. she's hardly a powerless girl. >> exactly. the point being, or and the point being, what we learned in that whole cheryl sandberg discussion around leaning in is that, you know, attitudes toward women have changed, or attitudes of women have changed. but the attitudes of men have not changed. that's what we need to shift. this idea of can we actually have equity, and not just so we can have ream, you know, excellent talent excluded in leadership, but we can add

trillions of dollars to our gdp if we increase women's participation in the workforce, if we make it easier for women to participate on par with men in jobs. this is all a bigger conversation. but this is part of it, i think. >> speaking of men's attitudes haven't changed, when we come back, i said, let's listen to a little mike huckabee. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups. of the dusty basement at 1406 35th street the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall off roble avenue. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪

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is over three times larger than any other 4g lte network. now get one, two, or even three-hundred dollars off a new smartphone depending on the smartphone you trade in on america's largest, most reliable 4g lte network. that's powerful. verizon. now get a free lg g2, with a 13-megapixel camera. for everything we've been discussing so far this hour, the number one thing that had everyone talking this past week was this. >> i think it's time running no longer accept listening to the democrats talk about a war on women, because the fact is, the republicans don't have a war on women. they have a war for women, for them to be empowered, to be something other than victims of their gender. and if the democrats want to insult the women of america by

making them believe that they are helpless without uncle sugar coming in and providing for them a prescription each month for birth control, because they cannot control their libido or reproductive system without the help of the government, then so be it. let us take that discussion all across america. >> and here is former governor huckabee trying to clarify those remarks with fox newschannel's megan kelly. >> everything i was accused of saying, i was actually saying the polar opposite. this was an affirmation of the intelligence of the capability of women. it wasn't even about contraceptives. it was about the way that democrats have accused republicans of having a war on women when republicans believe that women are quite our equal. >> there was no uncle sugar, aunt vinegar, the polar opposite. you did not hear that. what do you make of this moment? here's what i'm not interested in. i'm not interested in word policing mike huckabee.

i don't care. i am interested in, as you point out, the discourse turns into policy that is meaningful. >> right. these are the sorts of messages that have alienated women voters over and over again for the republican party, and it's sort of shocking to see the same comments, the same dialogue happening. so he says it's not about contraception. it's obviously about contraception and what we know is that the majority of men and women support contraception mandate. this isn't a winning issue with women voters, especially. and it's shocking that that's sort of -- they keep going back to it. you know, i think we saw it in virginia, if that's a canary in any coal mine, the message isn't going to resonate for republican candidates. so women voters aren't looking to sort of be told they're being manipulated, and that's what came across in his comments. >> it does seem like slut-shaming, all people who use birth control, is a bad policy, right? and, you know, if you kind of shifted the end of his comments just a little bit and you said, making women believe they can't control their reproduction without, and then he goes on to

make the uncle sugar comment. if the come was without available access to birth control, well, then, that would be empierically pretty -- it is, in fact, hard to control not one's libido but reproductive capacity without the modern things we have that allow us to control our reproductive capacity. >> yeah, i'm trying to take -- give mike huckabee a little bit of a break, what is he trying to say? he's trying to -- [ laughter ] -- no, no -- >> seriously. >> -- he's trying to say that republicans care about the whole woman. >> yes. >> democrats want to reduce women to their reproductive parts, and that is how they think they're going to hook women as voters. well, you know, i think that's a crazy road for him to go down, number one. he's making a point that perhaps is legitimate. but why is he then going into libido? he's showing -- he's bringing up these issues and these problems that republicans have about talking about women while he's trying to make an opposite point. that's their problem.

they cannot even figure out how to language these issues in a way that makes the republican message and the republican candidates seem more palatable to women. >> that's right. >> he should take this around the country, again, uncle sugar, go and -- >> yeah, back to what beth was saying, though, the reason why they can't message around this is because -- i mean, where are the republican women who are coming out and talking about the democrats' war on women? >> yeah, yeah. >> the real big republican women who are going to respond to the state of the union on tuesday, i think in part because -- honestly, jonathan, it feels so much to me like the similar argument that has been made really since the '70s about african-americans in the democratic party, that this party is giving us a sense of dependency, and that what what we need to do is stand independent and strong with the republican party. and it sounds like a remix of that for women, right? >> well, sure. you know, i'm thinking that here

we have -- we're almost a year out from the gop autopsy on what the problems are for the republican party. >> right. >> and key in there is women. and yet, here you have mike huckabee, nearly a year later, espousing some of the same attitu attitudes. i don't care about his alice in wonderland, polar opposite, what i meant to say was -- he's still using the language that turns off women no matter their political stripe. >> right. and i want to take -- i want to take it one step further and go to where you've been encouraging us to go. so, okay, what does this mean for policy? and what we're going to see next week is this no taxpayer funding for abortion discourse, excuse me, policy. not just the discourse of no uncle sugar for controlling your libido, but also an actual policy proposal that will make it even more difficult for poor women to have access to their constitutionally protected right, to terminate pregnancies. >> we interviewed a woman on

grit tv who talked about the gains to the gdp if we had gender parity in the workforce, meaning participation. if we made the workplace as appealing to women to work in as possible for women to work in, as we did even ten years ago, we would see growing rates of female participation, growing contribution of women to the gdp, and instead what we've seen is a flattening out for the first time since the second wave of the women's movement, a decline of women even wanting to participate, even though their educational levels are higher. again, do we want to recover this economy or keep bashing women? at a certain point, it becomes -- the questions about access to reproductive technology, pay, family leave, you name it, this stuff is the stuff that will recover our economy or not, or keep on protecting men's jobs, white men's jobs and watching our economy go down the drain. >> all right. thank you so much for being here. jonathan, you guys will hang out for a bit. up next, the other claim about sandy relief funds in new jersey. there is more.

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[ inhales deeply ] oh what a relief it is. ♪ by now, you know that e-mails heard 'round the garden state and beyond. time for traffic problems in ft. lee, and the response, got it. that was the exchange that started the mess that governor christie has been trying to clean up following the september closing of two of three lanes from ft. lee to the george washington bridge, the nation's busiest crossing. on top of that ongoing scandle, governor christie's administration has been accused by hoboken mayor dawn zimmer that hurricane sandy relief money was withheld from her city because she failed to approve a redevelopment plan favored by the governor. but the governor, christie, sandy-relief news you might not know about, but could be getting renewed attention, could be the governor's next headache.

data obtained shows that both african american and latinos who have applied for sandy rebuilding relief have been rejected at higher rates than white applicants. african-americans have been rejected at more than twice the rate of white applicants, and latinos at 50% higher rate. in addition to the figures, it is alleged the administration posted incorrect information on the spanish language version of the state's sandy website, and has done nothing to remedy the situation for those affected. we reached out to governor christie's administration by both e-mail and phone for comment on those issues, but we've not heard back. at table, kevin walsh, associate director of fair share housing center, the organization involved in both the fair housing complaint and the case over the public record. frank argotifraye, and stacey burger, president and ceo, the housing community development network of new jersey, and james perry, executive director of the greater new orleans for action center, who also happens to be my husband.

so, kevin, i want to start with you. lay out the story. what is this? this actually precedes all of these sort of scandals we've been hearing about over the past two weeks but is now getting renewed attention. >> congress sent $6 billion in new jersey to recover from a really terrible storm that's left tens of thousands of people out of their homes, and the governor promised unprecedented transparency. he promised fairness. he told everybody, i'm going to use this money efficiently and fairly, and unfortunately, we've gotten the exact opposite result. and a lot of people are still out of their homes, left scratching their heads, wondering where the relief is going to come. and although some people have been helped, overall the disaster recovery process itself has been somewhat of a disaster. >> yeah, and when we look at just the percentage rejected, the applicants rejected by race, you see that white applicants at 14%, latinos at 18%, and african-americans at 35%. that does not tell us on its

face that -- it tells us that there is some kind of discrepancy. it doesn't tell us that it is necessarily discriminatory. maybe there is correlated difference between these folks, but that said, clearly it raises some flags for us about what is happening. what do those kind of numbers mean in terms of material consequences for people, frank? >> well, we've been so concerned about the christie administration and the way he's handled any issues revolving around the latino, african-american, working poor communities. and so, when we found out about these numbers, we were really distressed, and it fit a pattern for us of just neglect of the community. and, for example, you mentioned the website. there are folks that didn't have the right deadline to apply for these funds, so they were left out in the cold. we filed a federal complaint with regards to that. and we've never received an adequate response. there's been no effort to try to address those folks who may have

missed that deadline. there was the wrong addresses in the spanish website. so the impact of that, we can't even begin to judge, because they never even sent out any message or anything to say, hey, if you applied improperly because of this bad information, well, you know, here. here, how we help you? there's been no effort to address that. >> stacey, i wonder, in part, because we're framing this, thinking about bridgegate, thinking about mayor zimmer's recent remarks, and, frank, you making the point there's been some pattern previously. i wonder if all of this is now going to be read quite differently in a new context that has emerged, sort of since these past two weeks have passed? >> we think there is definitely an opportunity to go back and look at the federal funding that has been disbursed with a much closer look, and this stuff is comingnd a microscope in a way it maybe hadn't before. we think that that's going to help people get the help they

need. and part of the problem, as frank was talking about, is the administration has really just not paid attention in a lot of ways to the urban communities hit, and we haven't seen the governor go and use the power of his bully pulpit to help the folks get help. we heard folks like janet rosaro, asking for help, she's got mold, people have all kinds of situations they're living in, because they're not getting the help they need. if this allows us to have a deeper debate around the issue of sandy recovery, the way money is being spent, or not being spent it, will help people in the long run. >> james, i can remember immediately that after sandy, you know, your response as a housing advocate who had done this kind of work post-katrina, i'm heading up to new jersey, going to sit down with the advocates and make sure we don't end up with the same kind of inequities, and here we are a year later, and i'm reporting on the inequities that faced the city of new orleans after

katrina. >> it's pretty unfortunate. you're right, i call it the fair share housing organization almost immediately afterwards and began talking to them. i'm so happy to see they've done great work here. what's also frustrating is that the christie administration knew that these kinds of mistakes could be made. they came to louisiana. they came to mississippi. they met with officials. they met with advocates. how do we make sure we do this the right way? to see them end up in the situation where they're making the same mistakes that louisiana made, so that african-americans couldn't recover at a rate that was equitable to white residents, is very frustrating. >> i do wonder -- because i think it matters maybe more politically than it does in terms of the material consequences, because the material consequences for people are the same whether this was an intentionally racial biassed behavior, or not, and sort of the politics for christie going forward, do you have a sense for the mistakes on the spanish language website, is that

sloppiness, because we don't care what's happening there, or is it intentionally trying to reduce the number of people able to get applications in on time? >> the governor, and we know this very well from having worked -- tried to work with this administration, has a pattern of constantly embracing the richey, and we always kid around, never met a rich person he didn't want to hug or a poor person he didn't want to humiliate. this is part of a consistent pattern, the statistics brought out in our report on sandy recovery, right? so he cut, for example, when he first started, he cut hispanic programs by 75%. he eliminated three hispanic women centers. i mean, so the good news about bridgegate in the sense is we can get this message out -- because, you know, i know a lot of people see him as the 2016 nominee, we can get the message out, because he's worked hard in the latino communities to project himself as somebody that's friendly to the community, and this gives us an

opportunity to say, no, look at this guy's record. it is not a good record when it comes to the working poor, african-americans and latinos. >> kind of the style versus substance piece. when we come back, i want to ask a little more when the issue of affirmatively affirming fair housing. [ female announcer ] you get sick, you can't breathe through your nose... suddenly you're a mouth breather. a mouth breather! how do you sleep like that? you dry up, your cold feels even worse. well, put on a breathe right strip and shut your mouth. cold medicines open your nose over time, but add a breathe right strip, and pow! it instantly opens your nose up to 38% more so you can breathe and do the one thing you want to do. sleep. add breathe right to your cold medicine. shut your mouth and sleep right. breathe right. add breathe right i'm bethand i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card.

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it has become a common talking point in the wake of natural disasters to assert the storm did not discriminate. well, although the winds of a tornado or the punishing surf of a hurricane or the rising waters of a flood may not discriminate, the government policies that follow in the aftermath of this destruction often do. communities with fewer economic resources before the storm can find it hard to secure the resources for resiliency after the storm. and so, staci, when we looked at homeowners versus renters,

impacted by sandy, you just see big differences among african americans and latinos and poor people in terms of the percentage of folks who are renters, right? much higher percentage of folks who are renters. they seem to get lost in all of this. >> they did get lost in all of this, mostly. they should have been eligible for about 40%, 45% of the aid based on the samt of damage that renters sustained. it was about 43%, 47% renters-to-homeown renters-to-homeowners, and most of the aid is going to homeowners, and that's a problem, because it's not helping the folks harmed by the storm. so it should be proportional both to communities and individuals to make sure the aid that everybody around the country gave to new jersey is being fairly distributed. >> james, there is a mandate to affirmatively further fair housing, and it does seem to me that part of what happens is when a storm that is not discriminating comes, it lays on top of already pre-existing patterns of segregation by race and economics. so that you don't have to have a

bad actor in the system wanting to do mean things. just that pre-existing pattern can, in fact, cause these differences. and i wonder if that is -- is part of why we have to have fairer communities before the storm shows up? >> yeah, you know, it's a term for everyone to learn is disparate impact, sometimes not the intention to discriminate, but treated unfairly, sometimes an entire group. that's what we've seen in this fair share study, african-americans, latinos get fewer grants. let's talk about the long-term impacts. the way schools are funded, frankly, through property taxes. so the folks who are homeowners don't get to recover, and fewer property taxes and less money for school system, and, therefore, fewer educational opportunities for the kids. so the implications go on and on and on and on. and the whole point of affirmatively affirming fair housing is about opportunity for america's citizens. you have to make sure it

happens. >> and i like the idea of taking a longer view, in part, because we're more than a year after sandy. is it still possible to bring justice to this circumstance? >> it's certainly possible. we've received $1.8 billion, and we've got a lot of problems with how that money was spent. we're about to receive another $1.4 billion, and we can fix a lot of the mistakes thus far made by getting it right that time. it requires strong federal oversight. it requires the christie administration to admit the mistakes and it requires a dues of humility that thus far hasn't been brought to the process. you can only sit through and people impacted by the storm can sit through so many press conferences in which the governor and his cabinet members declared that everything is just going great, when they're still out of their house, and when they're still living in mold-infested houses. and when hud and the federal government looks at what the state proposes to do with the next $1.4 billion, we can fix

the mistakes that thus far over the past year or so have been made. >> so still fixable, but it requires some actions that we haven't seen yet on the part of the christie administration. >> exactly. >> -- admit there's a problem they've made, and interested in figuring out why, so we can continue not to make the same mistakes. >> they don't even have to admit it. they just have to fix the problem. we don't care -- >> it's not blaming thing. they have to acknowledge something is the matter. >> and politically, christie isn't dead. if he can fix this problem. if he can't, then i can see the presidential commercial against him right now, the swift boat commercial, which says, you know, this is me, i live in this community, and i didn't get enough money to rebuild my property. he should make it right. >> he should for the people of the state. >> along those lines, they need to stop being so secretive. it took months of litigation about how the administration was making decisions, who gets money and who loses their home. it shouldn't take litigation. it shouldn't take going to the

courts to get basic decisions about how government makes decisions out in the sunlight. >> well, that's the effort moving forward. we're going to be trying in this next allocation of funds to see if we can get them to create more opportunities for renters. we found that this funding programs that they've put forth do not help renters as much and fairly, and that hurts working-poor communities and principally a lot of african-americans and latinos make up those communities. so that's the hope. i'm not -- i'm not so optimistic, because i know when we went in terms of community outreach, they didn't do much in spanish language community organizations, and, you know all along, we've seen a pattern of them not really caring, the website, so forth. i'm hopeful. >> yes, maybe not, but hopeful. thank you so much. thanks for showing up, and is that the tie i bought recently --

>> oh, wow. [ laughter ] coming up next, richard sherman saga and what it really means to be young, gifted, and black, especially if you are a man in america. hey guys! sorry we're late. did you run into traffic? no, just had to stop by the house to grab a few things. you stopped by the house? uh-huh. yea. alright, whenever you get your stuff, run upstairs, get cleaned up for dinner. you leave the house in good shape? yea. yea, of course. ♪ [ sportscaster talking on tv ] last-second field go-- yea, sure ya did. [ male announcer ] introducing at&t digital life. personalized home security and automation. get professionally monitored security for just $29.99 a month. with limited availability in select markets. ♪ yeah... try new alka seltzer fruit chews. they work fast on heartburn and taste awesome. these are good. told ya! i'm feeling better already. [ male announcer ] new alka seltzer fruits chews. enjoy the relief!

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yep...doh. [ boy ] slurpably fun and a good source of calcium. dads who get it, get go-gurt. over the pizza place on chestnut street the modest first floor bedroom in tallinn, estonia and the southbound bus barreling down i-95. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins.

and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪ welcome back. i'm me list is harris-perry. last sunday, in the final moments of the nfc championship game, richard sherman snatched a last-second victory from the san francisco 49ers. he secured his team a starring role in the big game on super bowl sunday. that decisive moment and impending face-off between the seahawks and afc champion denver broncos became the sports story of the week, for about one minute, because shortly after richard sherman did that, fox sports' erin andrews caught up

with him for an interview, and then richard sherman said this. >> i'm the best corner in the game. when you try me with a sorry receiver like crabtree, that's the result you're going to get! don't you ever talk about me! >> who was talking about you? >> crabtree. don't you open your mouth about the best. >> mm! the crabtree that sherman is referring to is the 49ers, and as a target of the trash talking, he might be having a few feelings or emotions after watching the interview, but he wasn't the only one with an emotive response, and because of the mixed rye responses of social media and television talking heads, the rest of us had all the feelings, too. when richard sherman pronounced himself to be the best corner in the game, he was telling us in no uncertain terms exactly who he is. but the reaction to what he said also says a lot about who we

are. there were, by dead spin's count, the 625 instances of the word thug spoken on television the day after the game. more, according to dead spin, than on ownary date in the last three years. and the race-shame responses expressing a collective embarrassment that afric african-americans were disgraced in the eyes of the nation by the actions of this one young man. following the interview, andre egata tweeted, we just got set back 500 years. though he later claimed he was joking, because, i don't know, 1514, and the usual trolls who immediately emerged on twiter to deploy the n word and all monkey, ape analogy is, and the defenders, those who rushed to remind sherman's critics of his respectability, bona fides, the childhood suspense, the commitment to community service, the 4.2 high school gpa that

landed him a tenth of a point short of valedictorian, the stanford degree, all offered up the case for what should have been self-evident, his humanity. it is at the heart of what we have learned of ourselves, from these reaction, the fear, the shame, the prejudice, around this young men, we remain mired in a history that rendered the human being invisible behind the well-worn narrative instantly activated because he happens to occupy a black body. instead of watching a man watch emotion that is familiar because of our common humanity, we see something else. first and foremost, a ready-made construct of black male identity to be demonized or defended. our responses to sherman pull back that veil of double consciousness famously articulated in debois' book, and

recently by sherman himself. >> just because you hear it, compton, you hear watts, you just think thug, he's a gangster, he's this, that, and the other, and then you hear stanford, and oh, man, that doesn't make sense, it's an oxymoron, and you fight it for so long, and to have it come back up, and people start to use it again, it's really frustrating. >> back with me is laura flanders, host and founder of grit tv, and jonathan, msnbc contributor and opinion writer for the "washington post," and joining is jalani of the university of connecticut and john mcwarter, columnist for the new republic and "time" magazine. all right. less about whether or not we want to defend a seattle seahawk who beat the new orleans saints twice. because who wants to do that. and more about whether or not in this moment, we learn something about the continuing realities of race in america. >> well, we absolutely did.

i don't know if it's something to be learn, but we saw something reinforced, and that's kind of the contingent citizenship of black people in this country, as long as you behave in certain ways, we will pretend we don't think less of you, but if you step outside the parameters and god forbid you are emotive and expressive in conjunction with a blond white woman, we will let you know how far we have not come in terms of the citizenship in this country. >> and a white, blond woman not intimidated or pressed. she's a professional. this is what she does. repeatedly tweeted, in an interview with gq, yeah, i was fine. but let's swoop in and say how awful it was what he did. >> right. >> but then, also, and, jonathan, this is part of why i want you at the table, this need to demonstrate that sherman couldn't possibly be a thug, because he had these other credentials. so you have lebron james tweeting, in support of sherman, i don't -- you know, i don't

know one thug that graduated from stanford and working on their masters, don't judge a book by its cover. and i thought, well, there probably are thugs that graduated from stanford, it's just by thug, someone who went to wall street and helped crash the whole system. the definition of thug is so racialized in this way. >> well, it is. and an argument can be made that as sherman is on record as saying, thug is a new way of using the n word without being condemned for having said something really dirty. but it's kind of complicated. because we're going to have this conversation about whether or not he is a thug. of course, the fact that that word and conception comes up, because he is black, nobody calls justin bieber a thug, whatever he does. >> they call him a wanna be thug. >> right. he didn't succeed -- >> he failed, right. >> but the problem with this thug word is, it's just like the n word, in that a white person might feel like they can use it, because let's face it, it has an alternate meaning, a certain

positive valuation, even within black culture, thug, thug, thug, considered to be something with a certain overlap with swagger, let's face it, and because white and black people live in the same country, white people hear that word being used to mean roughly somebody who has the cojones to react against a society that doesn't like them, and they'll think it's okay to use it, too. and i'm not sure what the solution. >> seattle beat the saints twice. they're not reason we're not in the super bowl. i have a lot of negative emotion about seattle, let me be clear. and i have this response of, yeah, go, because not so much thug, but the notion of the black man who does not bow, the black man who speaks, the muhammad ali, the jack johnson, that version particularly of the black male athlete who claims a space for himself, even as much as it provokes the angst on one hand, and also provokes this defensive, like, pleasure on the part of viewing black audiences.

>> he claims the space, but to go back to what jawani is talking about, the space is narrowly defined by the culture, what is permitted in that space, and ali who said, i don't have to be what you want me to be. sherman is this ratings gettings, big cornerback, best defensive player of the year probably, but he's not supposed to be big, bold, brash, any of the qualifications, you know, any of the things you would need to do the job well in the media and on the field. again, what's so important about what you're doing in this conversation, let's not look at the people trying to struggle around this field. let's look at who set things up this way. and one person who said this week, there isn't anything wrong with black america that the total eradication of white supremacy wouldn't fix. and there's a much bigger context here. again, you're supposed to be a cornerback winner, cornerback, not use your arms, mouth, feet,

or any of it, and still get us ratings. >> the other part of it was that he was also loud. he was also screaming into the microphone, which i think for a lot of people found, as one person said to me, frightening. >> a minute after the game. >> right. and that's the thing. he's just off the field. he did this incredible play. you could hear the crowd cheering in the background. of course, to him, it's loud, he's trying to get his voice heard over the stadium audience, which we all -- we've got microphones on right now. i don't have to speak as loudly as i'm speaking for the audience at home to hear me. you know, the thing about what richard sherman did, i didn't find frightening at all. i don't blame lebron james for bringing up richard sherman's stanford degree, because for what john was saying, thug has such a negative connotation. very negative. i agree with sherman, it's a new way of saying the n word. and when i heard him say that, i thought, oh, my god, he's

absolutely right. how many times have we heard the word thug used on this president, on his administration, anything that this administration does, and then stretch it out to trayvon martin. how many times i get e-mails, was a wanna be thug, and -- >> and use it around ice hockey players. >> let's listen to imhad, sherman on hockey, because i think his own analysis, it's -- let's listen. >> there's a hockey game where they didn't even play hockey. they just threw the puck aside and started fighting. i thought, oh, man, i'm the thug? what's going on here? geez. so i'm disappointed on being called a thug. >> we're going to come back on this issue. and the analysis on the ways we perform respectability. is the cn corn chowder.

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okay. so a lot ink was spilled over the richard sherman incident, but i want to read a piece in which is said, i sometimes find myself on a plane sitting next to someone who didn't seem pleased by my presentation, black beanie, sweats, and dartmouth sticker -- so i loved this piece, because i feel like so many of us have performed that, like you're a total -- i don't know you, but

i'm going to show you my credentials, my papers. >> exactly. one of the things that's important in this conversation is that in 1908 when jack johnson won the heavyweight championship and jack johnson was known to travel in the company of multiple white women at one time, booker t. washington actually criticized him and said you're setting the race back. >> 500 years? >> yeah. i don't think it was quite 500 years at that time. [ laughter ] and johnson had choice words for washington. fast forward half a century, and when you saw floyd patterson, the heavyweight champion, and everyone knew he didn't have a ghost of a chance against liston, and the race leader types, you cannot lose to sonny liston, because we can't have a negro like him representing the race, and then we saw the documents out of the montgomery busboy cot, where they were explaining to black people how to behave once you were allowed on an integrated bus, but what

you're going is contingent liberty, because no one has that kind of protocol imposed upon them, they're just free to be themselves as an individual. >> i love a couple of places you've taken us. i want to stop in the 1908 moment with johnson and remind it wasn't just the language, but is brought up on charges around the man act because of his traveling with white women, and part of what happened in this case around sherman was that he was speaking to a young, you know, beautiful, white woman reporter as he's yelling, some of that became the discourse, even though she's fine, but it reminded me of so -- let's go back to the king kong moment, and just the reminder we have this narrative about, you know, the big ape that comes in, dangerous to the fragile white woman, and that got repeated on this lebron james /giselle

cover, they reproduced what looked like a king kong moment, the "vogue" cover, if bee go back to the king kong one, you see how similar they are. it's not that -- it just felt to me, oh, are we performing this again, like 1908, 1850 -- like, why are we doing this again? >> your point about contingent liberty is the powerful one. and the question you're raising, what's it contingent upon, and where the heck are the guidelines? we've had this discussion for that for so many generations, african-american men are all body, but they're not supposed to be body. this goes deep into our history, where we saw it also this week in the story, with barack obama, you can't be a president and too smart, you know, too removed, you can't be a cornerback and too tough and big and bold, what the heck can you be? what is an acceptable black man

in america? that's the question that comes out this week. >> ultimately in terms of liberty, what we want to fight for, and i mean this, the right to be mediocre if we -- >> right, absolutely. >> we're not really there if we have to seem we're better. on the other hand, in this intermediate phase, there's a feeling that it's your job to knock back against the oppression by forming the role that's foisted upon you, and we still have that problem with that minority that perform thugness, because there's a space in the culture that validates that among black men, especially in entertainment, and let's not forget, actually, on jack johnson, he went through a phase where, how do i put this in on television, he was stuffing himself in an area below his stomach during his fights and above his thighs, in order to suggest that there was a way in which he was powerful. and he was doing that to twit white america, and white america didn't like it. so these things get very complicated in the phase before

we're free to really just not be super selves but just ourselves. >> the notion of taking the thing you're afraid of, and the stereotype you have generated and me performing -- look, i keep angry black woman in my pocket. i'm not actually mad oh, 99% of the time. but i recognize angry black woman can be a powerful stereotype to be deployed when i feel like i'm in a circumstance that requires it, i can go get that performance out. and when i do it, i know it will be received as youauthentic, ev if i'm not that angry. but it's foisted upon me, and i can use it for navigating a world that's racist and sexist. >> but there's another side of this, and as a black man, you're keenly aware, and one of the most important lessons i got from my sophomore year high school math teacher who explained to me, i got up really quick and knocked over a chair,

and he explained to me, a white teacher in a new york city public school, you have to be careful how you present yourself, because white people are afraid of you. it was the first time this dawned on me. >> at 15. >> at 15. when we're thinking about this, you know, sometimes you have to have people like richard sherman who are saying, i'm going to step outside of this narrative and i'm going to challenge it and bring these things to the surface. dr. king said we had to be maladjusted. >> creative maladjust. >> we didn't get most of the things that we've gotten by behaving politely. >> and i want to come back on this. both of you have mentioned president obama in this. and i do think there's a way in which a president obama aspect of this that comes out from that "new yorker" article. i want to come back to that, as well as some of the real life and depth consequences by black male bodies. purina dog chow light & healthy is a deliciously tender and crunchy kibble blend. with 20% fewer calories than purina dog chow. isn't it time you discovered the lighter side of dog chow.

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churn out all of the reactions, but it managed to reserve enough energy to guinn up enough healthy outrage for president obama, because of two sentences from his profile in the "new yorker." the president said, there's no doubt that there's some folks who just really dislike me, because they don't like the idea of a black president. now, the flip side of it is, there are some black folking, and maybe some white folks, who really like me and give me the benefit of the doubt precisely because i'm a black president. and so, jonathan, this felt like the least controversial statement a person could make. >> right. >> and yet, it's reflecting in certain ways, this notion, here i am, this actual guy, a state senator, then senator, the president, a moderate, a realist. what you see is my blackness, which either makes you think i'm going to be this wonderful lefty radical, you know, income

redistribution guy, or you think it's a scary, income redistribution guy, depending on where you stand? >> what made it controversial is he addressed it at all. >> mm. >> this is a president in his first term never spoke openly or outwardly about race. but when he did, professor gets' arrest, when he same the cambridge police acted stupidly, when he talked about, i think the first time, about trayvon martin, the killing of trayvon martin in the rose garden, people jumped, you're racializing this, and so, the president has been reticent to talk about race in the first term. now, having been re-elected for the second time by a convincing majority, the comfort of being president for a second term, he's feeling more comfortable saying things publicly and on the record that for those of us that cover him and watch him and had an opportunity to talk to him know that this is what he thinks and what he believes. >> and he was talking -- he was

having the conversation, or trying to have a conversation that we in the media refuse -- we continue to refuse to have, and in our culture continue to refuse to have. he's not talking about racism as it refers to him personally. >> right. >> he was talking about the racist threats throughout our history that affect our policy, on states rights, on federalism, on the question of government, on the question of rights at all. and it's that -- i mean, i feel like i'm repeating what i said earlier in the wendy davis conversation -- the discourse leads to the policy. let's look at what we're learning in these personality-driven stories that talk to us or educate us about what might be under the -- you know, lying under ground as we're talking policy, affirmative action, wages, work, job creation, you name it. it's not like these attitudes disappear when we're suddenly going to be doing college admissions and we're in this postracial society. wait a minute. these two things, these two

realities exists in the same -- >> well, this was the challenge for us as we were trying to decide whether or not to have the conversation today. again, jonathan, part of why i want you here, thinking about discourse and language. i do try to stay away from, like, race conversations that are just about saying mean things about each other. you know, a lot of that makes me want to shrug, yeah, i don't care. you can have in your heart what you want to have. do the policies you support increase or decrease racial inequality. >> everything i say about the media does not include you. this is one place we can have these conversations. >> on the other hand, as much as the policy please is the real with the capital "r," i don't want to miss that there's a human cost as well as a policy cost to having to navigate the kind of, as i might call them in my book, the crooked room, the tilted images, the stereotypes of who we are. that it both costs us something in terms of our physiological and psychological health, but also in the case of jonathan

farrell, potentially cost him his life as he stood there in north carolina knocking on a door at night, turns around, shot by the police because maybe he's, like, the 15-year-old, potentially cost trayvon martin his life, because he appeared to be scary to mr. zimmerman. i mean, the consequences even of the ideas are real and of the language is real. >> there was a piece this week about how black men age faster. >> those things are very much real, and especially when it comes to guns and the relationship between black men and police forces, these things must be engaged. because this kind of stereotyping and these kind of biases really do create death. i must say that when it comes to more abstract issues such as how people feel about the president, i'm inclined to think, yes, those attitudes do exist. i'm not sure that in a human world they could ever not exist. and when it comes to the president -- and i know that people differ on this -- as far

as i'm concerned, one, people who were very white despised bill clinton quite vigorously, and it's even to forget that at this point. if jonathan edwards had become president with his brittleness, rich and poor, i could say there wouldn't be any tea party, and even though there's racism against president obama, he's still there, he was re-elected, and nothing can change that. and as far as i'm concerned, that might be the background evil that's part of what america will always be. he won, twice. and he's still president right now despite anything anybody said in reflection of that "new yorker" piece. >> it does -- it goes back to your point about enjoying the aggressive thing that we don't get to see president obama perform. but wouldn't it be fun if he did, like, i'm better life than you, i've been president twice. we'll never see him perform that. >> i think that's interesting here, this is nothing different than anything president obama

has been saying. there are some people who don't like me, some people who do. if you go back to the race speech, the more perfect union speech, well, you know, i understand this is how reverend wright feels this, and there are white people that feel this way. it's difficult for him to come down and say, you know, this is kind of structurally, there is a racial dynamic to my presence here, and there is another movement that has specifically had to fight against racism in order to culminate in my presidency. on the other point with this, the conspiratorial side, we've seen this with a lot of democratic politicians. fdr, being call add socialist. kennedy, john birch society, he was taking orders from stalin, and same thing with clinton. and what happened is these people were specifically almost raced as white people. bill clinton, his proximity with

african-americans, so i don't think it's purely racial, but a thin diagram, an overlap between the racial -- >> and let me suggest that there's also -- there's a set of extra nalities. so i agree with you that the attacks on presidents are partisan attacks on presidents. they not only said mean things about bill clinton, they actually impeached bill clinton. anytime people said, it's never been this bad, i'm, like, have you never read a history book? of course, it's been this bad. the election of an afric african-american president, it meant something about the possibility of a fully unfettered black citizenship, perhaps existing. not post racialism, but the full citizenship. similarly when the attacks come, they also suggest with this

related to all black folks, maybe you're not citizens. when you attack george w. bush or bill clinton, it does not reflect on white people's contributions to the american -- >> oh, no, i think justin bieber set back white people -- >> 500 years. right back to 1514 when ka person cuss found saturn. >> doing it all over again. >> jonathan and jalani, john, and laura will hang out a little bit longer. when we come back, why to understand the immigration debate in washington you first need to understand what is happening in the state of arizona. an incredible look at what is happening on the ground is up next. if you've got copd like me... ...hey breathing's hard. know the feeling? copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours.

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[ coughs ] i've got a big date, but my sinuses are acting up. it's time for advil cold and sinus. [ male announcer ] truth is that won't relieve all your symptoms. hmm? [ male announcer ] new alka seltzer plus-d relieves more symptoms than any other behind the counter liquid gel. thanks for the tip. [ male announcer ] no problem. oh...and hair products. aisle 9. [ inhales deeply ] oh what a relief it is. ♪ send me a comprehensive immigration reform bill in the next few months, and i will sign it right away and america will be better for it. >> that was president obama at

last year's state of the union. he's expected to echo that call for immigration reform during tuesday's state of the union address. for the second year in a row, undocumented immigrants will be in the audience. back in june, the senate answered the president's call by passing a bipartisan bill that would provide a pathway to citizenship for more than 11 million undocumented immigrants. increased border security and overhaul the legal immigration system. but house speaker john boehner said in november that the house republicans had no intention of ever going to conference on the senate bill. but in this new year, there are fresh signs and hope that the partisan gridlock is easing. the white house is said to be scaling back on its partisan rhetoric in order to allow house republicans time to draft immigration legislation. house gop leaders are expected to release broad principles as early as this week. and the third-ranking house republican, majority whip kevin mccarthy, has effectively endorsed a pathway to legal status for the undocumented immigrants leaving in the u.s.

the latest developments show the political side over the battle over immigration reform. to truly understand the issue and the real lives at stake, you need to get on the ground in states across the country. arizona became ground zero in the immigration debate with the state's passage of senate bill, also known as s.b. 1070. though the majority of the bill was struck down by the supreme court in june 2012, the most controversial part known by opponents as the show-me your papers clause was upheld, and now a new documentary, the state of arizona, which debuts tomorrow on pbs, shows the impact of the law on people, on both sides of the debate. here's a look. >> a question governor about illegal immigrants in arizona and the bill you signed has a policy of a trigs, it sounds like we could have 400,000 people locked up in arizona. what's your comment to the possibility?

>> if they're breaking the law, there's that possibility, i would assume. >> wow. joining me, carlos sandoval and katherine tibini, and still with us, laura flanders. why is arizona ground zero on this? >> arizona is ground zero because it became the perfect storm around arizona as a result of federal policy, people were sort of being funneled instead of crossing over california or texas, were being funneled in arizona at precisely the time when the u.s. economy was booming and we needed this workforce. and, also, at that point, arizona's economy was booming, so people stayed in place. so you had this sudden, enormous increase in the number of people passing through, as well as who were staying, and you had a media frenzy around some of issues. >> this point about staying is made beautifully in the documentary, sort of this porous

border. particularly young men had come, labored, gone back. and that porous border was valuable for sort of the american economy. but then there came a time when people came and settled and stayed and had their children. tell me what the goal, the stated goal of the new policies in arizona were relative to this new population that decided to stay. >> the stated policies were, attrition by enforcement. that was in the -- that was right in the very beginning of the bill. attrition by enforcement means making life so miserable for people that they will self-deport, so that there were all these laws aimed at this, and s.b. 1070 was the culmination of many of these types of laws. >> before we get to s.b. 1070, there is 87g, and listen to 287g in the documentary being described. >> 287g was the first time in arizona that local police

jurisdictions could ask for documentation. when sheriff arpaio obtained this immigration power, he began going after our community, pulling over and stopping anyone that looked like they were undocumented. >> there it is. pulling over anyone, laura, who looked like they were undocumented. so that then s.b. 1070 comes in, and it's popularly known as the show me papers, and it requires police officers to check the immigration status of anyone whom they arrest or detain in they believe that person is an undocumented immigrant. so from 287 to 1070, it is about the belief that this body you are seeing must certainly be undocumented. excuse me? >> we're back in post-racial america again. >> yes. welcome back to post-racial america. >> i mean, what's so insidious about this is laws like that now affect the entire country. i was in georgia last year, and georgia is dealing with this

very same situation, where you have this connection between the local police and the immigration enforcement, such that people who are in a domestic violence situation, people who are frightened for a variety of reasons, dare go nowhere near the police. so that hurts police's ability to actually enforce the law. it hurts their crime reduction efforts. and it also, you know, puts a whole population in total terror, as they go about their daily life. and i think one of the things your film captures so well, and i've only seen the clips -- i look forward to seeing it on public television -- is the fear that was created in a state that before the federal policies that you talk about, people got along with each other. people dealt with these populations shifting, the economy was thriving. and then the other great thing you have in this documentary, which shows, again, how this situation is created through choices, policy choices, is, well, democracy did play a role. that there were shifts. that people did act.

the chamber of commerce saw, oh, my gosh, this isn't good for us. so awful and also there's a glimmer of hope, i think, in what you report. >> yeah, i want to pick up on your idea from the film itself, this idea that there was a pre-existing set of relationships, and that these policies actually encountered them and made them worse. here's a woman talking about her experience of her neighbors before and what she now thinks about her neighbors. >> years ago we had neighbors who were illegal hispanics. they learned english. they had a business. they were our best friends. now, you're seeing people come over to bring drugs. >> so, i mean, obviously, that's troubling, but you also feel like, well, clearly this is a person who's willing to have relationships across racial lines, even across status lines, but somehow has come to really fear her current circumstances. >> absolutely. what you had in arizona -- i think in part because of the

depiction of a level of criminality that was associated more with south of the border, the cartels, and some of it spilling over, and drop-houses, where people were dropped to be transported on, phoenix in particular got named -- labelled the kidnapping capital of the world, a sort of misnomer, based on actual facts. but that fear permeated. and i think it did really have an impact on relations and the association that the arizona general community had, in particular, with the latino community, and it became that perception of quote/unquote illegality of things associated with it, but also the basis fear of the cartels. >> i want to talk more about terrorism, right, and fear in this context. because i do think you all captured the humanity of everyone engaged in this process so well. up next, we'll hear from those who see the impact of our immigration policies on their doop doorstep every day, the

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[ male announcer ] prilosec otc is the number one doctor recommended frequent heartburn medicine for 8 straight years. one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. when i ride, you know, a couple of pastures, especially over there on that mountain, i go armed. i feel like i'm completely responsible for my own protection and safety. >> that was another scene from the pbs documentary "the state of arizona," the voice of someone with a particularly personal perspective on the country's immigration policies. the border rancher, national immigration policy and enforcement along the border literally impacts the ranchers in the backyard, and as you saw in the clip, there are some that feel the government is not keeping them safe. i appreciated the film could have been just polymic, but as i listen to the rancher, i get it. you do kind of feel like, whoa, i guess i'll have to do this on

my own. how do you balance that -- the terrorism of a community that we see these policies having created in latino communities versus the kind of humanity of folks, okay, look, what is happening here is dangerous or troubling? >> well, i think that what you have to do is have immigration reform. i mean, that's, like, top of the list. >> right. >> but for the border ranchers, they have a very legitimate concern. they do have people coming across their ranches every day, people who -- and they feel very threatened. but i think the media had a lot to do with making the situation much worse than it was. they were really ginnig it up with the narco trafficking and the drop houses and that sort of thing. so we have to realize the humanity within each other is our biggest concern, that we don't see the humanity, and we just see issues, and we just see fear. >> i want to listen quickly, and i'll have you weigh in on this, to a construction worker also

interviewed in the film who, you know, clearly is trying to balance complicated questions. >> -- because i know people hear that their parents are illegal, but they've been raised here their whole life, so what are they supposed to do? send the parents back to mexico and leave them here, or send them back to mexico, and what have they got down here? it's a big mess. >> it is a problem. >> i don't like the jobs being taken away from us, because it has hurt the construction business that we're in. but at the same time, i don't think you can just throw them out on the street either. i don't know what the answer is. >> i so like that guy, what do you do, send the parents back, and, yes, actually, that's what we're doing, sending the parents back, separating families. in fact, when pew asked hispanic immigrant what's is more important to you, a pathway to citizenship or deportation relief, more than 60% said deportation relief. keep our families together. >> somewhere in the film, the reference is made to the statistics. two-thirds of the children who are here, undocumented children,

are the product of mixed-status families, so what are you going to do with those kids, with those parents? nobody wants those families separated, and that's clear across racial lines when you do polling. the statistics, though, the statistics are very important. we talk about fear and this threat and all of this stuff, you said it's against the facts. but counter to the statistics, the statistic is that crime actually remained flat in the border towns from 2000 to 2010 when the arizona republic did the study, when "usa today" did the study. we can't say it enough. 2/3 -- what is it, 75% of the immigrants who are in this country came here legally. you've got not a spike in crime. the facts have got to be in this story. the fear is there for sure. but it's our job that people aren't just seeing complete hallucinations. >> as much as you all do a wonderful job presenting the humani humanity, also the humanity of the community in arizona and the ways in which these policies do become policies of terrorism in those communities.

thank you all so much. the documentary is called "the state of arizona" and it airs tomorrow on pbs at 10:00 p.m. eastern time. you've got to, got to see it. up next, the alarming thing happening almost every day, but it feels like almost no one is talking about it. [ female announcer ] crest presents: crest 3d white whitestrips vs. a whitening pen. i feel like my lips are going to, like, wash it off. these fit nicely. [ female announcer ] crest 3d white whitestrips keep the whitening ingredient in place,

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as we wrap our last show in the first month of 2014, i am saddened by just how violent this year has already been. there were 28 shootings or threatened shootings at schools in all of last year, but this month, there have already been seven. seven shootings in the first 14 days of school. a shooting every other day. shootings that led to hospitalizations and death of young people from 12 to 21.

in wakefield elementary school in turlock, california. in delaware valley charter school in philadelphia. near albany high school in georgia. in berendo middle school in new mexico. at south carolina state university in orangeburg, south carolina. at widener university in pennsylvania. at purdue university in indiana. shootings are down in new york city, but the city still has seen 58 incidents in the first 23 days of 2014. philadelphia was already numbering 22 murders on the 20th of this month, more murders than days in the year. chicago has had at least 41 shooting deaths this year. detroit, at least 38 shootings. some fatal. there have been shootings in a supermarket, in a barbershop, in a movie theater. and then yesterday, the latest. a shooting at a mall in

columbia, maryland, left three people dead. the 19-year-old gunman killing two employees at a skate shop before apparently shooting himself. police don't yet know the motive. 2013 is the year we took no meaningful national legislative action to curb gun violence. and it appears that 2014 is the year that we will live and die with the consequences of that inaction. that's our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. i'm going to see you next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. but right now, it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex witt." the man who wrote the book on chris christie tells us what to expect in the next stage of the scandal. how much can the governor of new jersey endure? as the olympics approach, what does the online chatter indicate about possible terror attacks? i'm talking with an expert who's watching it. and as the excitement builds up around the 2014 olympics, why is u.s. olympian lolo jones present on the u.s. team

stirring up controversy? i'll be right back. over the pizza place on chestnut street the modest first floor bedroom in tallinn, estonia and the southbound bus barreling down i-95. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those who believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did. in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪

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the state of the union. what can the president say in his big address to build momentum for 2014? a former speech writer talks about the keys to success. any clues online? i'll be talking about what he's discovered. it's already time to talk tax return, so what's the most hated tax in america? you'll find it on today's list of number ones. no respect. why does everyone think the super bowl is being played in new york, and why is that upsetting some people where the game will actually be played? good day to all of you. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." we start with developing news. just a short time ago, authoritin