this morning, my question. what's behind the gop's obamacare blame game? plus, attention aol employees! you've got some surprising mail. and, water, water, everywhere, but it is safe to drink? but, first, how the bridge brought us to the new jersey scandal that has nothing to do with traffic. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. time for some traffic problems in ft. lee. got it. ten words. eight from a close aide to new

jersey governor chris christie, now fired. and two from one of chris christ christie's political appointees to the port authority, now resigned. if not for those ten little words, what happened in new jersey might have stayed in new jersey, just a local story. and not only what happened at the george washington bridge, but also what happened, what is still happening with millions of dollars of superstorm sandy relief money. because if it were not for the national spotlight on governor christie's administration right now, the sandy story may not be getting the attention it deserves. the fair share housing center, a new jersey organization that advocates for affordable housing reported this week that nearly 2,000 applicants for sandy funds were incorrectly rejected. four out of every five people who appealed the rejections, 80%, were found to be eligible for relief funds after all. asked about the rejections, state officials blamed the federal emergency management agency, saying fema gave it bad data, that lowballed the cost of

repairing damages. fema disagrees. the agency suggested in a statement that new jersey should have known better than to use its data for a rebuilding program, writing that the data, quote, were not intended to be a comprehensive damage assessment for long-term recovery work. even with this new information, an 80% successful appeal rate, and an admission of using bad data, the state initially refused to reopen the appeals process to those who were rejected, but didn't appeal. nearly 4,000 people. but new jersey reversed course on friday night, and agreed to reopen the appeals process. the firm responsible for overseeing those funds wuss a louisiana-based company called hammerman and gainer incorporated, also known as hgi. the christie administration terminated hgi's $368 million contract last month, less than a year after signing it, after complaints from homeowners about delays and lost paperwork.

they have not said how exactly the state is dispersing those funds. but when asked about the improper rejections of applicants this week, the state didn't blame hgi. all of that is now in the national spotlight, thanks to the attention brought to new jersey over the george washington bridge traffic scandal, and to the work done to groups like fair share housing center, whose work prompted the first accomplishment from the christie administration that there was even a problem with how funding applications were evaluated. what will come to light next? joining me now is mark alexander, law professor of seton hall university, and former senior adviser to barack obama. and former democratic candidate for the new jersey state senate. heather havin, t"the wall stree journal" who has been reporting on sandy aid. and stacy berger, so nice to have you all here. so you have been reporting on

this deeply, and you know, part of what i could ask you is, what do we know. but i think maybe even more importantly, i want to ask, what do you think we still don't know, especially around the sandy issue? >> there's a lot we don't know. and what's been really interesting this week is that we had no idea that the state was relying on this data beforehand, this this all came to light because of fair share's report they had put out. so we don't know why they relied on this data, when i talked to fema, they said they made it very clear to the state that this is not data you should rely on for long-term recovery, only for short-term recovery. and in new york's proposal to the federal government, they made it clear that they were not going to just rely on this data set. so they seemed to have some awareness about this. so why did the state rely on this data? was it for expediency? we really don't know. and i think that's something democrats are really going to be asking for from the commissioner, going forward. >> stacy, how are viewers to understand exactly what these data are? if there's ever a chance to beat

up on fema, i'll stand there first in line to do it. but it does look like, at least from the reporting, that fema clearly indicated that these data were not the appropriate ones to use. so what are the data and why are they inappropriate for this purpose? >> they're short-term assessments of the damage that was done, only to the structure and not necessarily to the contents or the property or the individual. so they really discounted the number of renters and the damage that was facing renters in the impacted communities. so we've said from the beginning, to heather's point, that some of the data that they were looking at, we were concerned that it was going to skew the way that the state of new jersey applied for sandy relief to the federal government. we thought it wasn't that their plan didn't have enough funding for low-income renters. so it's not just the 4,000 people who were completely left to fend for themselves in this debacle, but also the fact that the plan itself may not be accurately reflective of the total damage to the entire state. >> so let me, i want to dig a little bit deeper with you on this for just one moment. because i think that there's two

ways to look at something like this. one is to say, okay. it's a storm, it's a crisis, and sometimes, in that context, administrations, executives are relying on what they have at their hands and there's no malice, there's no ill intent. so i guess part of what i want to know is, is there any reason to think that the christie administration, that the new jersey, sort of, decision makers, relied on this data with the recognition that there would be some groups more clearly harmed by the use of this data? >> i'm not sure they intentionally left people out, but they knew from organizations like hours and fair share and others, saying this data is not the sole barometer of what the problem is. and we asked multiple times for them to take other data into account and to look at the impact on renters. enterprise foundation did a report that showed a much higher impact on renters, closer to 43%. the state's proposal to the federal government to get the original $1.8 billion in sandy relief funding did not take

those numbers into account. so the thing that is distressing to me is when the governor goes to a place like keensberg and said we made mistakes and we're sorry and we recognize that, but doesn't say what those mistakes are. this came to light only because somebody else outside the government figured out there was a problem. if fair share had not done that analysis, those 4,000 people would still be out in the cold. and that's what's really not appropriate here. >> and mark, this is part of what, as we're sort of planning and thinking and trying to think through what this is, as someone who is living in post-katrina new orleans, there was a way in which the visibility of storm damage was so apparent. for years, if you just landed at the new orleans airport and drove into town, you could see the damage all around you. but so many of the people suffering in post-sandy new jersey are relatively more invisible. they're renters. so you might drive past and a structure might look fine, but in fact, there are all these people who have lost their homes. how do we make sure that an advocacy group or that journalists who are doing this

work can get heard by administrations who are making policies, potentially even not with bad intent, but nonetheless, having these horribly unfair consequences. >> right, and that's the thing. it's good government ultimately at the core. we need to make sure that the government is more responsive to the people. and one of the things which is very regard height now is obviously the people in the current context of what's happening in new jersey, have much less faith in their governor, much less faith in the administration. so when there is something which shows incompetent, maybe not even with malice, but when it shows that the governor and his team aren't doing things perhaps the way they should that would be serving all the people, that resonates in a context that is very difficult with the governor to be diealing. >> $1.8 billion came in that first round of sandy relief to new jersey, $1.4 billion expected in that second round of sandy aide. and when you're talking about 80% of rejected applicants should not have been rejected, i want to come back and talk with

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to help families begin their day together over breakfast. in the glare of the bridgegate spotlight, we've also learned about some of the projects that did get sandy relief funds, liked the $4.8 million that went to build an apartment tower in new brunswick, new jersey. the money came from a fund to help expedite the building of affordable housing in the wake of the storm. 48 of the 238 apartments in the tower will be classified as affordable housing. and the developer has, well, no experience building affordable housing, contrary to what the state claimed in its press release announcing the funds. an error state officials have now admitted to, according to the new brunswick today. the developer has not commented publicly on the issue. the town where the complex is being built, new brunswick, was not among the storm's most damaged communities. new brunswick is listed as 188

on the post-sandy community hardship index, compiled by rutgers university. number 254 on that same index is belleville, where governor christie personally helped a new senior center get $600 million of sandy money, a third of the cost of building it. although now the christie administration center will help others hit hard by the storm, christie said only it will help seniors from belleville to stay in town. again, we've got $1.8 billion that first round, $1.4 billion in the second round. and some of that money that was spent in the first round is on these projects which are now raising lots of questions. >> well, i think what people are saying, they're saying two things about chris christie. first of all, he is one of the most political governors in this country. and he has always been that, but he's gotten a pass up until this point. so thanks to the journalism and people coming out with these stories and exposing them and the work of your organization, now we're starting to see who chris christie really is and what he's been up to. i will say this. the second thing that people are

learning is that chris christie has not been a very good governor. contrary to popular opinion, contrary to his approval ratings in the state of new jersey, new jersey has a higher unemployment rate than the national average. there was a study that came out of rutgers, indicating that the state will economically develop less than the rest of the country for the foreseeable future. property taxes are up. and people who, the tunnel, which was authorized by the federal government, they were going to pick up a large position of that tab, which would have put people back to work in new jersey. he canceled it. you want to know why? because governor christie has spent the bulk of his too many in office looking out for governor christie. and this is all being exposed now. >> so, there's a way in which, obviously, in the context of an election, right, what you would expect is given this man just ran for re-election, that you would have seen all of that kind of information show up, right, in a campaign? that's precisely what challengers are meant to do. but i also wonder, let me just come back from the politics of it a little bit, heather. just on the pure question of,

okay, the reporting on the new developments in new brunswick, in belleville. how much transparency should there have been, whether you had a democrat, a republican, a good or a bad, a moderate or an extreme governor. how much should people know, and how much do they really pay attention when a new, you know, project breaks ground. >> right. so state officials, i'll just, you know, give their perspective here, have said that these projects were within the nine affected counties by sandy. so, they might not be an area like new brunswick, like you said, wasn't very hard hit by the storm, neither was belleville. but these are within counties that they are giving funding, those nine affected counties, and the administration says those will help people in those accou counties. so going forward, there's going to be a lot more scrutiny about these projects, the $1.4 billion coming up. there's public hearings coming about this and i expect to see a lot of people questioning why these projects, how are they decided? we really don't know.

we haven't seen the bids for these projects and which ones were chosen and what was the criteria. so going forward win expect to see more of that. >> stacy, do you buy that? not heather's point of view, but that she's reporting here, the point of view of the officials, that, well, you know, we are going to help people with these. >> well, there is an acute rental housing crisis in new jersey and there has been for quite some time. >> before the storm. >> absolutely. and the storm made it acutely worse. so we need to put more apartments into play so people will have places to live. however, the way these projects were decided is not as far as i can tell a public process. and that needs to be delved into it to figure out which projects were given priority and why. there were 72 projects, i believe, that were in the pipeline that had applied for these funds, so it's not clear why some of them were chosen and some of them weren't. in the $1.4 billion that they just applied for, they actually have made the process less restrictive and are talking about making it easier to do developments in places that were not directly impacted.

so it's disconcerting that they would actually step back from a more rigorous process to make sure that folks are getting apartments -- >> and this goes so much to your point about the quality of governance, at a core level, the quality of governance. we talk so much about tax dollars and how american's tax dollars are spent and we worry about poor people having enough food to eat and spending their tax dollars. but the question of government contracting and who gets contracts and how those documents are placed in front of people, whether or not they are redacted when they're in front of people, whether or not there's a blind bidding process, these are the big questions. that's part of what i want to come back to when we come back, mark, talk about these questions of good governance, but also how democrats at a national level are hoping to spend all of this bad governance for their own political game, when we come back. the unique patch with time release smartcontrol technology that helps prevent the urge to smoke all day long. help prevent your cravings with nicoderm cq. i can't believe your mom has a mom cave!

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it. democrats are exploiting the bridge scandal to attack not only governor christie, but republicans nationwide, especially the members of the republican governor's association, which christie chairs. as dnc chair debbie wasserman schultz told "the new york times," if republican governors want to keep embracing them as their chair, as their model for the future, well, we are happy to help them out. so, i mean, for me, that really sums it up. this idea that the deeper this goes, the uglier this gets, the more that the democratic party at the national level is like, whoo-hoo! yes! this is great for us. >> well, there's been so much focus on what happened on the bridge and all the developments that are coming out every day. and it's not looking good for governor christie. the reality is that he was extraordinarily effective in the state at building coalitions across party lines, on a certain image. and what's happened, i think people have seen that that image really isn't true. it's not entirely accurate. so if he continues to be the front person for are the party, i think for democrats, it's perfect for them.

because there's continuing information. and we don't know where it's going to end up. but right now, we're seeing a lot of things that have not been revealed before, that don't reflect well on the governor. and so, if the republican governors want to say, this is our spospokesperson, then the democrats will want to cease se that and say, that's fine if you want that to be your model. >> so it turns out he's not the bipartisan, "bridge builder." >> and that's what he sold himself on. and to the extent that people didn't see that outside of new jersey, there's a significant exposure the republican party has to deal with. >> here's my one worry, though. and i consistently worry about this on the republican side and the democratic side, but in general, what we have here is a bad guy. if we replace the bad guy with a good guy, these kind of problems will go away. rather than saying, what we have here are some bad processes. and some incentives that lead people to behave in certain kinds of ways, so even if you had a good guy in office, my bet

is you'd still end up with at least some of these kinds of problems. >> that is a thousand percent right. it's the system, stupid. i mean, obviously, governor christie went beyond what the system, the corrupting influences of the system. >> yep. >> i think that the evidence is showing that, in terms of how he disseminated funding and all these different things that have come out over the course of the past few weeks. but at the same time, you're absolutely right. because i say i am a democrat. but i will say this all day. if you live in a local community where your murder rate is up and your graduation rates are down, you need to vote them out, even if they are democrats. because i do think that the process, the system under which we function is very much a corrupting system, because it's driven by money and how much money people contribute to your campaign. and if you look overwhelmingly at the numbers, the more money you raise, the greater your likelihood of getting elected is. >> so, obviously, we do not yet know precisely what the evidence is against christie, right? we have wildstein saying that

there is evidence. we haven't seen what the evidence is yet. we know what the evidence is on the housing piece, right? that's so far -- so far, that's been very clear. we're much less clear on the question of what the governor knew in the context of bridgegate. that said, to the extent this is about the system, these structural implementation of the way that business is done, is there something about new jersey, from your reporting, that you could tell about how business is done that leads to, you know, especially, for example, if we take new jersey versus new york on sandy relief. >> right. two thing i would say about that. one, one of the agencies that's really at the heart of this scandal involving the bridge is the port authority. and the port authority is a bistate agency. there's a lot of questions surfacing right now about how it's governed, how it's operating. and i think going forward, we're going to see much more scrutiny over the port authority. democrats are really pushing to introduce legislation that would illuminate sort of how some of

these choices are made. prevent, potentially, a david wildstein in the future. that position is not being reinstated at the agency, which is interesting. but also, yeah, in terms of new york versus new jersey and sandy, i think new jersey's going to have a lot of questions to answer about why they chose this data and can they change that in the future. we have a huge waiting list for that program now. all these folks, we're not sure how they're going to rank in the waiting list going forward, so i expect to see a lot more scrutiny and questions about that going forward. >> i know you want to jump in on port authority. >> i do want to jump in on the port authority, because i think the port authority is annings where i worked and i was a political appointee, and when i got there, i made every effort to make sure people would know i was there to work. but that agency, there are a lot of really hard-working people there and they don't like political appointees. they don't like the process being politicized. it's actually brought moral down at the entire agency. so what people don't know is, when you see the political influences, frankly, it's coming

from both governors. it is not coming from sbr internally, from within the port authority. >> it's such a good point. when you're kind of telescoped out like this at a national level and you're looking and start saying these things about the port authority, and there are all of these people who work there, who are not beholden to political interests, who are clearly trying to make the trains run on time. and you have those folks doing this work, and the connection, then, of these sorts of political scandals, again, whether they're from the left or the right, end-up just making the work, right, the work of making government work feel so ugly and hard. >> and these are government servants that may do their job a little better or worse some days, but they are serving us. and the influence of money in politics drives these political decisions. and that's very difficult. >> we are, of course, going to keep our eye on everything going on around housing and thank you so much for your advocacy, which has brought this to light. and your continued advocacy, which at the core is whether or not we can get some justice for folks who have been under circumstances of inequality.

heather hayden and stacy berger, thanks so much. coming up next, the blame game over obamacare and jobs and the ceo who blamed distressed babies for 401(k) cut. he has a very different message this morning. there is more nerdland at the top of the hour. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good. became big business overnight? ♪ like, really big... then expanded? ♪ or their new product tanked? ♪ or not? what if they embrace new technology instead? ♪ imagine a company's future with the future of trading. company profile. a research tool on thinkorswim. from td ameritrade. a research tool on thinkorswim.

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you want it all. get our multi-point inspection with a a synthetic blend oil change, tire rotation, brake inspection and more for $29.95 or less. get a complete vehicle checkup. only at your ford dealer. welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. in the past week, we have had to make sense of a lot of new numbers that add clarity to the american outlook on jobs, and it's not all good. one thing most economists agree upon is the underwhelming jobs report for january which was released on friday, which showed a dip in the unemployment rate to 6.6%. but also, only the addition of 113,000 jobs for the month, well below economists' expectations. the white house even admitted that while the overall unemployment rate continues to fall, it still remains unacceptably high, reflecting

more than 3.6 million long-term unemployed. on that, there is largely political consensus. too many american who is want jobs still simply don't have them. that's where the agreement stops. this past week, an amazing debate took place. amazing, in part, because it was over something incredibly nerdy. the congressional budget office's estimate from tuesday, which indicated the affordable care act, otherwise known as obamacare, would reduce the number of full-time american workers. yeah, i know, that sounds bad. but stay with me for a second. the report projects a decline in the number of full-time equivalent workers of about 2 million in 2017, rising to about 2.5 million in 2024. essentially, according to the analysis of the cbo report, obamacare will help more than 2 million people be less reliant on their employer's health plans, meaning they are not tied to jobs they otherwise look to leave or retire from.

you can imagine how this news was perceived and received of the erstwhile always-present opponents of obamacare. non-partisan cbo report admits that obamacare is hurting the economy, will cut 2.5 million jobs, said the national republican committee in a tuesday tweet. the misinformation was used in an attack against kay hagan by her republican challenger. >> how many families will have to lose good health coverage? how many workers will have to lose their jobs? >> eventually, the media tried to set the story straight with headlines like these. no, obamacare is not handing out 2 million pink slips. it's not killing jobs. s a cbo report did not say that. congressional budget office director douglas elmendorf made it plain. >> can i say, congressman, the reason we don't use the term lost jobs, there's a critical

difference between people who have a job and can't find a job or have a job lost for reasons beyond their control or people who choose don't to work. if someone says, i've decided to retire or decided to spend more time with my family or decide to spend more time doing my hobby, they don't feel bad, they feel good, and we don't sympathize, we say congratulations. >> helping the cbo director clear the record was none other than congressman paul ryan, the republican from wisconsin was still troubled by the report, because as he put it, the affordable care act makes it too easy for americans to choose, quote, not to get on the ladder of life, to begin working, getting the dignity of work, getting more opportunities, rising the income, joining the middle class. but while ryan and other republicans talk about the dignity of work, they fail to acknowledge that even those who want to work are not finding work and their government is failing to sport them. case in point, senate republicans on thursday politicked a three-month extension of unemployment

insurance, for an estimated 1.7 million jobless americans. that's dignified. joining me now, mark alexander, a former adviser to president obama, lauren young, reuters money editor, democratic strategist, tara dy dell and diane brady. so i'll open this up. does obamacare kill jobs? is that what the cbo told us this week? >> of course not. it's about labor and mobility, you don't want people choosing to be baristas at starbucks simply for the health care. so people will have choices, and that's one of the reasons you wanted universal health care in the first place. that's where we are right now. and we've never done this before. that's the other thing, to have these sorts of projections, this is an experiment to some extnt. and i think that's one of the things that also makes it a bit of a false science. >> so i feel sort of bad for reading some of the statements with that sound in my voice, but

it's so irritating to me, because in part, i feel like there's this unquestioned assumption in the american context that of course health care will always be attached to employment. and the place you get your health care coverage is at your job. but that's just an assumption, right? it does not have to be structured that way. >> and as we climb the ladder of life. >> the ladder of life! i want a t-shirt with that. as we climb the ladder of life, yeah, our employers, we can't rely on them, and the whole idea is sto give small businesses the opportunity to grow and not worry about, frankly, the very burdensome costs of health care. it's really expensive to provide health care when you're a small company and you've got a lot of other things to do, including keeping the lights on and the phones working. >> that said, tara, you have been on this show from like day one. you have been the person who has helped me to understand why the branding of the affordable care act has been consistently so problematic for the administration. and i felt that again this week. like, oh, lord, now it looks as

though the cbo is actually saying that these republican, sort of, attacks are accurate. >> you're absolutely right. here's the problem for the democrats. the democratic party is somewhat divided in on this issue. so you have democrats, particularly those running in states that are not safe states, not safe seats, so they want to try to distance themselves from this or show that they fought against certain provisions of it. >> kay hagan. >> exactly. but the problem with that is, they own it. and democrats need to understand, it doesn't matter how you distance yourself, the republicans will not allow you to do that. so from a strategic standpoint, i think democrats need to own it. and i've said this all along. and not only own it. one of the biggest criticisms that voters have about democrats is we seem weak. that we waffle. that we don't seem firm, right? they like firmness. that's why chris christie did so well. people like firmness. democrats need to say, that's right, we passed it, we'll fix anything that needs to be fixed, but we're not going to apologize for wanting people to have health care.

that's all you have to say. >> and to me the cbo report was legitimately an interesting question about how the labor market works. so now, if people, in fact, can say, i'm going to go start that small business or, i'm going to stay home with my kids, or -- >> i'm going to retire early. >> doesn't that, in fact, create more -- like, if, in fact, the 60-some-year-old person can now retire because they have a gap filler until they get to medicare, doesn't that improve the capacity of younger workers to find jobs? >> yes, absolutely. >> it's a positive benefit. that's the thing. tara's point is so true, that you have to say, there are so many good things that have come with the affordable care act. and you know, if you're committed to it, you've got to be committed to it all the way. this has changed fundamentally how we work in this country. this has changed fundamentally how we get health care. >> mm-hmm. >> and democratic party that pushed it for the most part has to say, there will be bumps in the road. but this is one where it's like, you have to realize, like, this is changing opportunity for

people. >> mm-hmm. >> and it's not killing jobs. it's saying to people, you don't have to take a job you don't want just for health care. or stay in it. that's a huge difference. >> and is it putting more money in their pockets? the cbo report also says that premiums are 15% lower. and everybody was saying, oh, the health care costs will go up, it's going to skyrocket. well, people are paying 15% less on the exchanges for health care, where will they be spending that money. >> and health care is getting better. >> i don't want to miss this stimulative effect. and i want to ask you a little bit about this. in part, the other thing that happened that i tried to jam in there is the president, along with both sides, both houses of the u.s. congress, passed this massive reduction in food stamps, in wic -- excuse me, in s.n.a.p. this month. i want to listen to a moment to tiana gaines turner, who was on msnbc yesterday talking a little bit about the human side, but then i want to ask you about the economic side. >> i would like for them to

understand that because of these cuts, like josh said, that there will be a lot of people and a lot of families that will have to tell their children that there are no seconds. let's not talk about the many seniors that also, you know, participate in food stamp programs. >> so tiana always brings the human side, and i'm also thinking, yeah, if there are no seconds, then these dollars do not go back into the economy. why can't we make the clear economic argument for -- >> i think because it becomes a moral argument too often and not an economic argument, and you don't understand the fact that, frankly, you're incentivizing consumers. you know, you're creating consumers when you put money in people's pockets and giving the option to do things like look for work. that's something that doesn't factor in here when you're talking about this. it's become, i think, too much an argument about lazy americans versus, you know, whether or not people are, in fact, trying to find work. and the reality is is that we are creating more jobs in the economy right now. health care costs are actually

being contained. so a lot of the apocalyptic predictions aren't coming to pass. and what creates jobs is, in fact, things like energy, things like demand. and this is an economy fueled by people buying stuff. they don't buy stuff if they don't have money. >> so food subsidies end up putting dollars in their hands. the provisions of health care puts dollars in their hands and also makes them healthy. we don't want to miss the moral argument, it makes people healthier and more able to work. when we come back, i'll talk a little bit more about the kind of shaming of the lazy. there was also a shaming of the mommies, a blaming of the mommies, a strategy which backfired on the ceo who linked 401(k) cuts to difficult pregnancies. he sent a new e-mails to employees last night and i want to tell you what he had to say. so you're telling me your mom has a mom cave?

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last week aol caught some employees by surprise when the company announced a change in how it allocates funds to match its workers 401(k) contributions. formerly, they used the traditional model, in which they match a percentage of employees. but on tuesday, they made the call to switch to a new system, in which they would only match employee contributions in one lump sum at the end of the year. that means only employees who are still with the company on december 31st will be eligible to receive the funds. and anyone who left the company before the very last day of the year would not get any of the matching funds, which could mean the loss of thousands of dollars for employees. in an interview with cnbc, aol chief executive tim armstrong gave this explanation for the change. >> as a ceo and as a management team, we had to decide, do we pass the $7.1 million of obamacare cost to our employees or do we try to eat as much of

that as possible and cut other benefits? and for employees that are leaving to go to other employers, not matching those programs was probably the last thing on the list for us in terms of employee benefits that we wanted to keep. >> but later in the week, aol's employees' shock turned to anger while he blamed difficult births as a cause for the change. armstrong said, two things that happened in 2012, we had two aolers that had distressed babies that were born that we paid $1 million each to make sure those babies were okay in general. and those are the things that add up in our benefits cost. so, when we had the final decision about what benefits to cut because of the increased health care costs, we made the decision and i made the decision to basically change the 401(k) plan. thankfully, the story does not stop there. because last night, breaking ceo

news. suddenly, aol employees all had mail. in a message to his staff, armstrong wrote, we heard you on this topic. we have decided to change the policy back to a per-pay period matching contribution. he also went on to explain he made a mistake and apologize for mentioning specific health care examples at the company town hall earlier in the week. it is hard for me to contain my rage about this, mostly because it feels like it's just dishonest to suggest that some employees or even obamacare overall, is the reason for this policy change. >> it's totally false. and also, the thing that's interesting is, this is a company that has probably a lot of young employees, which tends to lower your health care costs. maternity is not generally a very high cost for employees. i mean, in fact, obesity is probably a higher cost. it has nothing really to do, as well, with retirement benefits. they should be two separate questions. why he brought them together, i think you could almost hear the bomb go off when he said the word, you know, the premature

babies, you knew that was going to come back to haunt him, because it has nothing to do with how you decide to if you wanted the retirement of your employees. >> and it felt to me like this was precisely the woman as pre-existing condition that obamacare is precisely meant to address. >> yes. and this was just so disturbing to me on so many levels. number one, there's this general trend in this country where executives and ceos are blaming health care reform for their decisions to cut workers' wages, cut workers' hours, when this is a trend that has been going on for quite a while, far before the affordable care act even came into existence. because, and what they aren't doing is cutting their own salaries. >> amen! hello, yes, what?! >> yes. and the crazy part about it to me, we're supposed to be a merit-based system. so to me, if your company is failing under your policies and then yet you go after the workers who have nothing to do with those decisions that were made at a higher level, that to me is where we have a real problem in this country. and what the dirty little secret

is that many americans don't know is that the system, again, we talked about, incentivizes you laying people off or reducing their hours, because it's reflected in the improvement in your stock prices. >> right. okay, so, i love this. >> and the stock goes up. >> and stock goes up. >> but then after the distressed babies comment, it started to fall, right? it had gone up to 51 on thursday morning, because of a good earnings release, but comes down to 47.15 by the end of regular trading and down another 2.5 by friday. reportedly, as the reporting on this baby discourse got out there, and i thought, this is interesting that we then last night with a breaking news e-mail, because it doesn't feel to me like some great moral or ethical insight. it felt like, uh-oh, this story is bringing down our stock prices. >> this is where power to the people goes. >> yes! >> outraged, angry, it's all over the people, all over twitter. the minute this happened, i sit in a newsroom, and everybody was like, can you believe this is going on?

>> right. >> and i'm not a huge fan -- >> and you're going to say, diane, this is a guy who fired somebody -- >> who fired somebody, yeah, basically in a town hall type setting, as well. >> for taking a photograph, right? >> what's interesting, the whole labor mobility we were talking about, this is the kind of thing that undercuts it. you don't want people to basically wait until december 31st to take that new job they got march 31st. so it's interesting that they really work it cross-purposes. it is a dumb policy. and if you look at, say, banks who have bonuses and give them out in february, there is an exodus the minute people get their money. people still are going to leave. you want them to leave at the appropriate time, because that's what this country really does better than any other country, is labor mobility. you don't want to be -- >> and it felt like we heard him say in that moment, well, we don't want to pay you if you are leaving our company. that goes to your point against meritocracy. if you've done a good job, you should be getting your benefits and pay while you're doing the good job. you want workers to be mobile. >> not only that, but as the

personal finance expert here, there's a whole theory behind investing. >> yes! >> and when you put money into the market, it's called dollar cost averaging. it is the nerdiest thing that you'll ever hear me talk about. but it works! and to put all your money in the market in january, that's a terrible idea. >> but it's good for them. >> right. so here's part of what i want to pause on. so, i think you're right. that it was the outrage, of particularly social media outrage that allows, in part, this drop in stock prices and then, obviously, a reversal last night. typically, i don't like twitter outrage. i think twitter outrage, itself, is over all sorts of ridiculous things. and as much as, like, i love that power of the people, sort of democratic with a little "d" focus, i also wonder, how do we get this message? the nerdier, quiet message that this is really about executive compensation packages. this is about needing to make better personal financial

choices. this is about what serves the interests of the company. i don't want to have to wait for an outrage to get there. >> and it ties into what we were talking about in the last segment. when you have leadership in washington, deliberately misleading on what the cbo report is about, and when you have this ceo, deliberately misleading people on what the problem -- see, we need a higher level of discourse. and you know, the reality is, we are here in nerdland. and we love talking about policy. but the reality is that leaders have to be honest with what they're talking about. sometimes it cuts for your side and sometimes it cuts against, but you have to be honest and step up and say, this is right and this is wrong and i'll take credit for what i do right. >> and a great example of this, i can't even believe i'm going to say these words, the governor of arizona, jan brewer, who stands out there, does the medicaid expansion for her people, recognizes the ways in which it will be beneficial for arizona, and then gets sued by the republicans in arizona. that actually got turned back. so we actually just saw that, in

fact, that -- we saw just last night, that that case was turned back, so that, in fact, in arizona, so the lawsuit challenging the arizona governor, jan brewer's medicaid expansion, was followed by fellow republicans in the state legislature, which actually dismissed in a ruling on saturday, in this major victory. but here she is, trying to be honest. and she gets sued by her own party. >> instead of having an honest agreement. you know, the reality is, at a certain point, you'll have the votes on your sides. sometimes you don't have the votes on your side. you move forward with those decisions. and the reality is, when everyone wants to distort and scapegoat, we don't gain anything by that. >> the most dangerous thing i see in all of this, you want to incentivize people to make the right choices. one of the things that doesn't happen, americans don't contribute to their retirement. we don't have pensions. so to have a situation where you're giving your employees another reason not to contribute to their 401(k) is dangerous. and that's, i think, one of the

most toxic things when you have a policy. >> i want both of you to come back and we're going to get carmen wong ulrich at the table. i want to do the politics of personal finance, how to make the best decisions, but also how those decisions get constrained. and particularly i like to hear ladies voices on this. up next, big news, big, big, big, big news at a dinner right here in new york city last night. saturday night, it was like news all over the place. attorney general eric holder made this news. it really made e between a morning around the house and getting a little exercise. hi-ya! and i tried a baking class. one weekend can make all the difference. unlike the bargain brand, depend gives you the confidence of new fit-flex® protection. it's a smooth and comfortable fit with more lycra strands. it's our best protection. take your weekend on with a free sample at depend.com

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and last night, here in new york city, at the human rights campaign gala, attorney general eric holder made history with this. >> on monday, i be issue a new policy memorandum that will for the first time in history formally instruct all justice department employees to give lawful, same-sex marriages full and equal recognition to the greatest extent possible under the law. [ cheers and applause ] while the attorney general's announcement means is that same-sex spouses will be able to receive the same federal protections and benefits as opposite sex couples. those include the right to not testify against their spouse. the ability to file jointly for bankruptcy. visitation rights in federal prison and debt and educational benefits for surviving spouses of public safety officers. the extension of these rights will have immediate and tangible implications for the lives of

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[ woman #3 ] to travel the world without leaving home. [ male announcer ] whatever the reason. whatever the dish. make it delicious with swanson. today marks exactly a month since 10,000 gallons of the chemicals mchm, which is used to wash coal, and a secondary chemical called pph, spilled into the elk river around charleston, west virginia, when a freedoms industry storage tank leaked. . governor ray tomlin put a water ban if place at 6:00 p.m. that same day, nearly ten hours after the incident started. 300,000 people in charleston, west virginia, and nine surrounding counties were affected by the ban, and it took more than a week to restore water service for those affected. and though it is one month after the initial spill, people in the affected areas still do not have official consensus about the quality of their drinking water. several west virginia schools

dismissed students early last week, because they were concerned with water safety. two people went to the hospital. one teacher fainted and several students claimed burning sensations in their nose and eyes. according to west virginia's secretary of state, people are so fed up that they have taken to melting snow just to give their kids a bath. and in north carolina, 82,000 tons of coal ash mixed with 27 million gones gallons of contam water spilled into the river when a pipe began to leak last sunday. that's enough material to fill more than 40 olympic swimming pools. coal ash can contain such materials as mercury, led, arsenic, and radio active uranium. this spill affects an area of 25 miles that stretches from eden, north carolina, to southern virginia. duke energy, the company responsible for the spill, installed a permanent plug at the end of the pipe on saturday morning, and plans to fill the

underwater broken part of the pipe as well. but north carolina is still waiting for conclusive tests about the quality of their water. different states, different crisis. yet the biggest issue we face in both of these situations is the same. people don't know if they are safe. joining me from berkeley, california, is david sedlacek, professor of civil engineering at uc berkeley, also co-director of the berkeley water center, and author of a book i've been reading for days, water 4.0, the past, present, and future of the word's most vital resource. also at the table, bob and nicky with the environmental organization, green for all, and jeremy richardson, senior energy analyst at the union of concerned scientists. so nice to have you all with us. >> thanks for having me. >> let me start in west virginia. how bad is it? >> awful. it's as awful as it has ever been. but then again, it's, awful for a hundred years, melissa. we've got to understand that

this is a problem that the right questions haven't even gun being asked yet. what if this entire water system is compromised all the way from the water supply system to the very last hot water heater? we have no idea. what about -- and even though there's a tank regulation bill that's been introduced, what do we -- and we're going to let the industry regulate the tanks once again. i think freedom industry was inspecting their tanks, right? >> right, yeah. >> and even that tank bill doesn't take into account the 126 open seas of toxic waste that exist in west virginia, 19 in two counties alone that hold back more than -- well, one of these toxic seas holds back nearly 9 billion gallons of open toxic waste. so we're putting band-aids on cesspo cesspools. >> so this point of putting band aids on cesspools. steve, i want to come to you, less on what's happening at this moment, because i want this sense of, okay, this is how bad

it is, in this moment, in this space. but i want to -- i have literally been reading your book for days, because you go all the way back in the history of water. all the way back to the roman aqueducts to explain to us how important water it is to making a society work. can you take this brilliant book and in like five seconds, tell us, why is it so important that water and the systems of our water make sense in our country? >> they need to make sense the to us, melissa, because if we lose this drinking water supply that we rely on every day, it really puts the brakes on all the things that we come to expect of our cities. so a drinking water supply has to be safe and reliable 365 days a year. >> and what do we need -- when we say safe and reliable, what is that -- sort of, what is in our water, just in general. so if we haven't had a spill, if we haven't had ash, what does

safe and reliable water actually taste and look like and how does it come to us? >> well, safe and reliable water is water that's tasteless, odorless, and it doesn't make us sick when we drink it. and the reason that all of us in the united states have confidence in drinking our tap water is a system that's been established, a system that takes care of the drinking water and treats it to remove waterborne pathog pathogens, a system of stewardship to make sure that chemicals aren't discharged by sewage treatment plants or aren't getting in from other sources. and when that system's functioning properly, it really means that we can rely on this system for everything, for taken water, for showering, for bathing, for anything that we want to do in our homes. >> so david just used the language of stewardship, trust, reliability. and i've got to say, it feels like in more and more communities, that is precisely what we don't have.

you know, just living in norris, we had, over the course of the past six months, we had multiple boil water alerts, we've had to shower with your head down, because if you shower with it up, these microbes will get into your nose. there's this way in which, that notion we should be able to trust and rely on our water supply is completely torn apart by events like whatwear seeing in west virginia and north carolina. >> it's true. and i'm glad you brought up new orleans. because we have a couple of issues going on here. we have equity issues and we have infrastructure issues. so when it comings to equities with west virginia is the third poorest state in the country. and many of these infrastructure issues that are happening, are happening to our most vulnerable populations in the united states. so when it comes to infrastructure, we know that the epa says between 23,000 and 75,000 sanitary sewer overflows happen each year. and they're happening to our most vulnerable communities. 2.5 many americans are getting sick just from swimming. so we know we need to protect our most vulnerable communities, and we need to revise

infrastructure, so that everyone does feel safe. >> so these two points feel to me like they ought to be political bonanza, in the sense that infrastructure should be everyone's interest, right? everyone should be deeply, democrats, republicans, i mean, how is this not a winning issue? clean water and infrastructure. and at the same time, the fact that this kind of infrastructure investment would generate particular benefits for those most on the bottom. sort of, most unequal. how do we start getting that kind of discourse about what our water needs are, and this connection to issues of inequality? >> i think it comes back to responsibility, right? we're not holding our industries accountable for their actions. >> because that kills jobs. >> well, you said it exactly right. building infrastructure can create jobs. right? so the west virginia legislature right now is actually considering a bill that would establish, basically, a permanent mineral trust fund,

based on some separate stats from natural gas, drilling, and what they have an opportunity to do, if they pass that bill, which we hope they do, is to direct those funds to things like infrastructure, things like economic diversification, things like education, and really plan for the future. >> i want to go to listening to the secretary of state from west virginia, talking about how fed up people are as we go out. when we come out, we'll talk more about west virginia, more about north carolina, but also california, where there simply isn't enough water. as we go out, i want to listen to the secretary of state from west virginia talking about just how fed up people are. >> too many west virginians are still wondering if their water is really safe. first off we hear it's one chemical, then we hear it's two chemicals. first we hear it's 7,500 gallons, then we hear it's 10,000 gallons. one day we're told that the water is safe, the next day we hear that pregnant women should not drink it. it doesn't add up.

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relieving the pain quickly. try fast, long lasting gaviscon®. we're back and continuing to talk about the issue of clean water and whether or not we can trust our water systems. we were just saying in the break, this is an issue that makes you feel like you just want to run screaming, because i need my government to protect the waterways. like, at the most basic level, that is what i need. >> uh-huh. >> so how can i get that to happen? >> that's a fair question. i think that it's a thing where we need our politicians to understand, not only does coal provide an economic base, it provides jobs, my brother works in the coal mines today. he has probably one of the best, high test paying jobs you can get in the state of west virginia without a college education. and may be with a college education. and so i think we acknowledge that that's true. that, you know, it really does provide an economic base for the

state. but we have to also recognize at the same time, that it comes with a great deal of cost and damages, and that the industry should be held accountable for those costs. and they should be held responsible for the risks. >> now, david, you write in the book, you remind us about silent spring, you remind us about the cuyahoga river, and the fact that at moments, the american people pause and say, oh, wait a minute, we do need to pay attention to environmental policy, because it so fundamentally impacts our health. are there, sort of, reasonable engineering, scientific ways, right, even beyond the politics of it to say, these are the better ways to ensure that we will have clean and clear water supplies? >> absolutely, melissa. there is always a better way of solving the problem. the real issue is that we don't turn our attention to infrastructure until there's a real crisis or a perceived crisis. and it's in moments like this, it's in moments where the public's attention is focused on

a chemical spill or a drought or some other problem, where we have the ability to say, hey, there's another way of doing things, and we have to start investing in that other way. and if we do that, we're going to feel a lot better about the safety and reliability of our water systems. >> and so, it seems to me, though, that the part of david's point that we don't look until there's a crisis, is also that we don't look, because the people most impacted -- so you're saying there's been a crisis in west virginia for 100 years, right? >> absolutely. >> but those are people who become almost disposable in our world view, because they're poor people, living in a part of the country, which is what we need from them is their coal, not necessarily their longevity. >> but along with the coal, we take their lives. i'm sick to death of the right wing saying, regulations kill jobs. poisons kill people, melissa. can you imagine in those eight hours on january 9th, while earl ray tomlin was dithering and not shutting down the water system,

can you imagine being a new mother giving your newborn infant its first bath in poisoned water? >> or mixing your formula for your 8-month-old with this water from the tap. i mean, when you turn on that tap water, you expect to be able to give your baby a bottle from it. >> but you see, we accord trust to these corporations who are only geared toward profit, not human well-being. we accord trust to them, but they are not due. because we all knew that if on the morning of january 9th, there'd been a note delivered to the governor of west virginia saying that some terrorist organization had just put 10,000 gallons of poison in the water supply, he would have sate, cut it off now! >> that, that is such an important point. and instead, he dithered for eight to ten hours. why? and i don't mean to be strident, why is this man still in office? if anybody who had done that with any shame would have hung his head and resigned and gone

away. >> so this is an important point. this idea of the expectation of trust is that somehow -- so your point being, if this is an enemy of the state that poisons the water, we would immediately act in ways that we don't perceive industry, necessarily, as an enemy of the state. and we cannot presume that industry is an enemy of the people, but the work you do indicative of how frequently communities find themselves being asked to make a choice between their health, the health of their children, their longevity, and corporate profits. >> indeed. and i think going back to this issue of infrastructure, we want to find a win-win between the environment and the economy, right? >> mm-hmm. >> the epa estimates it's going to be about $188 billion over the next five years to revise our water infrastructure. that's a lot of jobs. we don't have to have an either/or here. if the government kept up with what our water infrastructure is supposed to look like, we would

be creating jobs. >> and for me, as we think about this notion of water. party of me why i've just been thinking water all week, we also have in northern california or we have in southern california this problem of the droughts. so, on the one place, we've got lots of water, but the water is being poisoned by toxic industries. on the other hand, we have the receding of the water, insufficient water. how are those things connected? is there a way in which the droughts are also part of this larger story? >> absolutely. if you look at, it's the story of coal, in a lot of ways. you know, we talk about the damages and the risks associated with the coal industry. you know, there are damages when we take it out of the ground, when we process it and clean it before it gets burned. when we ship it around the country. when we burn it in power plants, we produce not only air pollution, but as we're seeing the water pollution from the coal ash spill in north carolina. and we haven't even talked about climate change yet. and this california story is a great example of how climate change is affecting the patterns

of precipitation throughout the nation and the world. >> david, i was consistently surprised in the text, as you sort of walked through the history of water, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, now we're in water 4.0, how the failure of water infrastructures can mean the failure of entire civilianizations, entire groups of peoples. which doesn't really seem like we're about to end america, does it? i mean, how bad are -- is our infrastructure right now, relative to kind of the history of water infrastructure? >> well, not to belittle the concerns about chemical spills, but i think in terms of the drought and water supply, we're in reasonable shape to survive a drought of a few years' length. i think the issue is that we need to plan ahead for things like the effects of climate change. not only having less water in the west and the southwest, but more water in the east and the northeast. so we heard about combined sewer overflows and sanitary sewer overflows.

those kinds of things will also get worse under the predictions of climate change. and so, our systems can be improved and of climate change. our systems are adapted to ride this out quite well, but the problem is infrastructure systems happen over periods. if they're going to be built to last, we have to get started early. >> i have to tell you when you live as far down the mississippi river as i do, you certainly want things to be working upriver. this is going to be a tough summer for us. we will keep our eyes particularly on west virginia. you know, we've been apawed by what is happening there. up next. the book of style. [ female announcer ] look younger in 8 weeks?

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anniversary of the launch of the

mhp show and it's our second opportunity to bring you a review of parker's book. now, parker's book is a sketchbook you see on our table. it belongs to my 12-year-old daughter. she asks me to have every guest on the show sign a little note. now it's become the record of nerdland. we take a peek behind the cover to see what kind of messages she's been getting. here are a few of our favorites. parker, the embodiment of black girl genius, wishing for you a world that allows you to be utterly yours and fully yourself. hi, parker. i'm a hooj fan of yours, loved your segment. you rock. >> come to the washington c

capit capitol. >> for parker. that was by amazing author and illustrator sandra boynton. >> parker, can't wait to see you leave your mark. always shiechblt super bowl xlvii champs. >> parker you are gone with the wind fabulous xo from kendra more from the real housewives of atlanta, season 5. >> parker, i hope to meet you some day and if you don't know what engineering is, check it out, xoxo. debra sterling is the founder of goldibl goldiblox. >> to parker, always be beautiful inside and outside, love and kisses from sybrina fulton, trayvon martin's mom. >> stand up straight. listen to your mama. love miss j. alexander. >> deer parker, dream, imagine, and don't lehtonen say you

can't. diane ravage. from the poet nikki giovany may the bicycles be on a smooth road on your way to utopia. to parker keep your mom in peace, she needs you. peace, harry belafonte. it's been quite an adventure so far. thanks for contributing online and thank you for telling us about foot soldiers in your community. thank you for sharing in this wild wonderful journey we're on. i said it last year and i'll say it again. there's still a page in here for you, beyonce. thanks to you at home for watching. i'm see you next saturday. we're back. now it's time for alex witt. >> she's just going to make an appearance, i just know it. thank you so much. u.s. olympic ski iier experienc

heartbreak. a student killed ore loud music in a parking lot. plus tomorrow new jersey lawmakers pore over documents in the new jersey bridge scandal. don't go anywhere. i'll be right back. [ phone dings ] [ nephew ] hi, heath. i can't wait to see you win gold! bye. [ male announcer ] there when you need it. at&t. the nation's most reliable 4g lte network. every second -- we chip away. at advancing safety with technology, like seeing every curve, even when you don't, being a second set of eyes, or having stopping power when you need it most. it's not intuition, it's intelligence. this is the new 2014 jeep grand cherokee.

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new multigrain cheerios dark chocolate crunch is breakfast... with benefits. start your day with a delicious new crunch. healthy never tasted so good. king of the mountain makes his bid for the gold. is he the fastest in the world? olympic officials explained what's gone right and what's gone wrong with the games in sochi chi and what about the hotel rooms. the clock is ticking. the u.s. is facing another potential debt ceiling crisis. how soon and what happens if nothing is done. the biggest loser. which country gambles away more money than any o'? that is in today's edition of number ones. hey, there, yo