at citi, we believe in everyone's potential, which is why citi and evan are giving back to community sports programs to help future athletes every step of the way. hello, disrupters. i'm karen finney. as rand paul goes after bill clinton again, john paboehner punts in the face of a tea party blitz again. and chris christie packs his ba bags for chicago, a place with the most movable bridges in the world. >> he doesn't see it happening. >> there's widespread doubt about whether this administration can be trusted to enforce our laws. >> he went to the congressional retreat and there was a lot of push back. >> speaker boehner could not say no to his tea party caucus in the house. >> you want to be part of america, we'll find a place for you.

>> that was kind of tepid. >> he seems to be trying to build street cred with the right wings. >> anyone who wants to take money from bill clinton or have a fundraiser has a lot of explaining to do. >> oh, yeah? well, you've got bill clinton. >> in the modern day civil rights movement, eric holder is something of a rock star. >> i will issue a new policy memorandum. all justice department employees to give lawful same-sex marriages full and equal recognition. >> that rock star attorney general eric holder. brother, drop the mike. your forecast this week, we begin with a man who's making a play to lead his party in 2016. in an interview that aired this morning on c-span, yet again republican senator rand paul went on attack against former

president bill clinton. >> the democrats can't say, oh, we're the great defenders of women's rights in the workplace and we'll defend you against some kind of abusive boss that uses their position of authority to take advantage of a young woman when the leader of their party, the leading fundraiser in the country is bill clinton, who was a perpetrator of that kind of sexual harassment. you know, so they can't have it both ways. so i really think that anybody who wants to take money from bill clinton or have a fundraiser has a lot of explaining to do. in fact, i think they should give the money back. >> you know, rand paul has a bit of explaining to do himself. why target a man who hasn't run for office in almost 20 years? could it have something to do with the democratic woman currently ahead of mitch mcconnell in kentucky? or the woman expected to top the democratic ticket in 2016? the timing may be right for senator paul to show he's the right person to stand up to the clintons with chris christie out of the top spot. the latest polling has paul in

second place among a very wide open gop field. and in a bid to establish his 2016 credentials, senator paul addressed immigration reform this weekend during a visit to texas. but the gop's right flank continues to stand in the way of progress in washington. coupled with attorney general eric holder's announcement last night extending federal rights to same-sex spouses, wedge issues like immigration and marriage equality could cripple republican efforts to win the white house. victoria defrancesco soto and jared bernstein join me now. thanks to you both. >> thank you. >> thanks. >> so jared, i want to start on this issue with rand paul. this attack on the clintons, it strikes me as kind of a two-for. he's able to go after bill clinton and try to make him a liability. obviously, he's always been a hot ticket in democratic fundraising. he's sort of showing he will

stand up to the clintons. that's obviously clearly important on the gop side. but also, he's attacking allison grimes, the woman beating mitch mcconnell in the kentucky senate race right now. >> i think it's pretty simple. the republicans face a well-known gender gap. bill clinton is really one of the spokespersons for the democratic party. he happens to be married to the front runner for 2016, as you pointed out earlier. that's pretty obvious but worth reminding everyone. and so the calculus, i guess, in paul's mind is you go after bill clinton like this, you're going after that gender gap. i can't imagine it has much traction at all. in large part because you really have to dig hardly at all beneath the surface to understand why that gender gap exists or for that matter why the immigration gap or the civil rights on gay marriage gap

exists. all of the policies really explain why democrats tend to do better with these constituents. so it's kind of a cheap shot. awfully transparent. >> and you know, vicky, the thing that strikes me, rand paul does not have a great record on women's issues himself, nor does mitch mcconnell. so that's why i feel like there's this connection to allison grimes, who will likely, i would expect, do well with the women's vote in kentucky. >> you said this earlier, karen, that it's a two-for. i think rand paul is trying to kill two birds with one stone. so trying to distract the kentucky electorate from allison and trying to help mitch mcconnell out, but i also think that this is ultimately about rand paul. he's trying to differentiate himself come the 2016. at least a dozen folks are going to be running, maybe two dozen folks. he's trying to figure out what is something that gets the bases going? well, it's talking about bill clinton. so he's trying to separate himself out from the pack and then maybe let's say he makes it into the general, maybe

indirectly it's trying to hit at hillary. directly he really can't hit her, so he's just trying to put himself forward at whatever cost. >> well, and jared, i'm going to play a little bit of sound because rand paul, not surprisingly, hit hillary clinton on none other than benghazi. let's take a listen. >> but then the cue dee gra and the thing that i think should limit hillary clinton from ever holding high office, when she was asked for re-enforcementere she turned down re-enforcements. we should never, ever have a commander in chief who won't send re-enforcements. >> jared, they're not going to let this one go. it is clear rand paul is trying to send a message, hey, i'm ready for that fight. >> it's unfortunate that we have to start hearing that stuff early 2014 because it means we're just going to hear a ton more of it between now and then. again, everything we've heard so far has been totally predictable. does anybody who's not liing under a rock know that they're not going to come after hillary

on benghazi? i think when it gets right down to t like i said in my first set of comments, republicans face a major electoral challenge based on demographics, based on immigration, based on lgbt. if is this is what they have to throw back, good luck. >> right. well, and to that point on immigration, i mean, today in "the washington post," it's not just about rand paul, but it's about the party in general. he says, what boehner did this week in bowing to pressures from the right was to underscore that republicans continue to think more like a congressional party than a presidential party. i mean, vicky, you know, just a week ago supposedly we had principles, things were happening on the republican side. and then it all collapses. of course, it's the president's fault. but really, the impact is going to be felt in the republican party. >> and it's sad that john boehner came out with this set of principles, but those very strong forces within his party,

very conservative forces, pushed back. i want to separate out the forces. i think there are those republicans who don't want immigration tomorrow n a year, five years from now, never. then there are those who do want to see immigration. but they want to see it on their terms. they want to see it particularly when they take back the senate. i think republicans are feeling very optimistic. they're saying, we're goinged to immigration reform, keep the chamber happy, but let's wait until we win back the senate. then we're going house version, senate version, and make the president sign it. i think we need to be careful about that. >> so let me say this. i think that that analysis may be right. i'll tell you one who i think probably in his heart would like to see some progress on immigration reform is john boehner. >> i agree. >> and what was interesting to me was a few weeks ago, you saw the speaker, mr. boehner, really chafing at the bit from this kind of pressure from tea party republicans who are clearly hurting the party's brand.

so it's interesting to see him flip on the immigration issue. >> what's interesting, though, this morning it seemed like senator schumer kind of called the bluff, right, because the argument is, well, we don't trust president obama to enforce the law, which is a ridiculous argument given everything he's done. then you had schumer saying, okay, we'll sign the legislation and we'll just make it go into effect in 2017. i mean, that essentially is calling their bluff. >> exactly. they want to be the architects of immigration reform. it's plain and simple. and i've said this before. democrats need to be nervous because if republicans keep stalling, latinos are going to eventually punish democrats. they're not going to cross party lines and vote for republicans, but they're going to do what they did in 2010, which is stay home. so the president and legislative leaders really need to push on boehner. something has to be done. >> i want to switch gears, jared, for just a moment because eric holder made a pretty

important announcement last night. he was speaking to the human rights campaign at their gala. essentially what he said is that the federal government will recognize the same rights for same-sex couples that straight couples receive. suggesting that same-sex couples can't be compelled to testify against each other, can file for bankruptcy jointly, and a couple other items. this was a pretty big deal. again, it's an issue that is, as you pointed out earlier, a wedge for the right because on one hand, part of their base is going to want them to fight this. on the other hand, they know they can't afford to lose support they've gained in the lgbt community. the minimal support. >> the theme of this whole segment to me is sometimes good politics is good policy, good policy is good politics. when you're talking about gay marriage in the context that you just referenced, i think for eric holder and for a lot of other people, i'd include

myself, this is a civil rights issue. he recognizes it as such and the next step on a long road toward civil rights for lots of people who are still excluded from those rights in america. and yes, the politics happen to be favorable as well. so when you have good policy and good politics intersect, that's not a sweet spot you often get. i'm glad the attorney general is pursuing it. >> i am too. i have to say i was also very pleadsed to hear him make the connection between, you know, the civil rights movement of the '60s and this as a modern civil rights issue. i think that's critically important. thank you to jared bernstein and victoria defrancesco soto. >> thanks, karen. up next, chris christie hits the road. and though he leaves new jersey, he just can't escape his troubles. and later, nearly two years after the death of trayvon martin a self-defense case makes headline in another florida case. more on that is ahead. ♪

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embattled new jersey governor chris christie tried to keep up appearances this week, traveling to texas in his role as chairman of the republican governors association to raise funds. he's headed to chicago, illinois, in just two days. but the very people he's there to support, republican governors and gubernatorial candidates, seem to be giving him the brush off. in the lone star state, neither government rick perry nor his want-to-be successor went anywhere near christie. either publicly or privately. apparently his visit was so low profile, the chairman of the state party didn't even know about it until reporters told him. again t appears that none of the

four gop candidates for governor of illinois planned to attend events with christie during his trip to chicago. the governor will have a series of high-profile speeches and events upcoming. his schedule includes an appearance at the c-pac conference in march. so will the scandal help him garner sympathy among the republican base, or when it comes to national leadership, is it time to throw in the towel? here to help us answer those questions and more, msnbc contributor jonathan alter and bob engle, co-author of "chris christie: the inside story of his rise to power." thank you so much, gentlemen. >> hi, karen. >> you bet. >> bob, i want to start with you. there was a story in "politico" yesterday that reported on the mood within the christie camp and kind of noted that the governor's been a bit down. he didn't really like getting booed at the event last week for the super bowl. you've covered him for so long. give us a sense of what is going

on. i mean, he's lost some of his top staffers. what's going on with chris christie, and what's going on inside that inner circle? >> i can't imagine anybody would like being booed, especially chris christie because he likes to be popular. my impression in the staffers i run into in the hallway when you can, they've been hiding lately. the morale is very, very low. they're not used to this. they're used to being popular. here's a guy who won re-election by huge amounts. they're not quite sure how to handle it, and they're making really big mistakes like that memo that went out last week talking about some guy's high school behavior and they were solidly trounced for that across the country. >> right. well, and just to follow up on that, you wrote this week that christie's behavior is really undermining his reputation as this good communicator. >> that's right. >> you wrote, governor

christie's communication skills have been compared to those of ronald reagan. that has all changed since news of the lane closings at the george washington bridge. >> that's right. he used to have one of the best commune kags operations i've ever covered in politics. all the sudden they're doing stupid trivial, trite things. after that column came out, they then announced that the governor himself had not seen that memo giving us the impression that it must have been a rogue staffer that pulled that off. all of us who have covered christie over the years have trouble believing that because he's really a hands-on guy. he might not be doing it directly, but he usually has a good idea what's going on around him. >> jonathan, this is a big test for chris christie on the broader national stage to see how well he can handle it, how well he can maintain operations

in new jersey and handle duties as rga chairman. interestingly enough, "the new jersey star ledger" editorial board now says they blew it by endorsing christie in his race for re-election. i wonder what your reaction is to that. >> it's good when a newspaper admits an error like that. there are a lot of people in new jersey who are kicking themselves over having voted for him, supporting him. a lot of democrats supported chris christie. but karen, the first rule of holes is when you're in one, stop digging. >> right. of course. >> he has compounded his errors by then arguably lying about them. i mean, for him to say after the reaction to this juvenile memo was very negative that he had nothing to do with it was almost certainly not true. so why would you want to, you know, continue with things where your credibility can be further

eroded. he needs to just take his lumps on having done something stupid and putting out that memo, you know, dragging david wildstein's high school record into the public dialogue instead of denying having had something to do with it. that was idiotic. >> jonathan, as a follow-up to that, there are those time when is you are sort of in the trempbls, in the middle of the fight, and you cannot see it. i don't think they can see they're still digging. >> i think you're right. what all the rest of us should conclude about this is that it really -- you know, whatever he knew or didn't know -- i'd say more likely didn't know about the lane closings on the bridge before hand, these issues now, this behavior now goes to this basic question of whether chris christie should be president of the united states. this is what we're talking about. if he was not a potential candidate for president, we

would not be covering this the way we are. we have to keep our eye on the big threshold question, which is whether the way he's behaving might disqualify him from being leader of the free world. >> and bob, to that point, it certainly is starting to seem as though candidates who he's supposedly helping get re-elected or elected don't want to be seen with him. and just a year ago, people were tripping all over themselves to be, you know, seen in his presence or to have him come speak to their group. >> well, you know, the way it is right now, none of us know how this is going to end. most of us think it's going to go on for months if not a year or more. we don't really know what they're going to find in the end. if you're a politician, you want to be very careful who you're photographed with. because should it go very badly for christie, the opponents would be more than happy to use that in their ads. >> well, that's absolutely right. you know, jonathan, one of the

groups that governor christie is going to speak to, as i mentioned earlier, is c-pac. he was snubbed by them last year. obviously in search of a friendly audience. the sort of perception of and the spin that we're starting to hear from the christie camp that he's being, you know, attacked by the lame stream media, that's the kind of audience that likes that, radioigt? >> oh, yeah. he's going to have a big, positive reception at c-pac this year because he's going to turn it all back on us. by us, i mean not just the press in general, but msnbc in particular. you can expect him to do that. you can expect that he will get some new support by doing that because a lot of these folks who go to that convention, they just love to wail on what sarah palin calls the lame stream media. already in texas, you know, a lot of people down there say, we don't care about this bridge. there are a lot of republicans who think that he's being treated unfairly. you can expect him to try to exploit that.

>> well, and it's interesting, bob. the last point to you here, if you look at the polling, while overall christie's support has sort of take an bit of a hit among core republicans, he actually seems to be doing okay. that sort of re-enforces this idea that maybe this is a way for him to pick up some support at the national level for some of those far-right republicans who might not have otherwise been interested in chris christie. >> that's exactly right. what you notice where the numbers have gone down is among democrats and the unaffiliated or independents. this might be a wonderful chance for him to pick up some support with a group that he had the most trouble with. that is the right side of the republican party who as jonathan said loves to blame everything on that darn liberal media and the democrats. this is perfect. he can play to that. he may pick them up, and that's important for primaries. >> all right.

well, we will continue to watch as this unfolds because so far we've seen pretty much every week there's new news. thank you. later this hour, the death of philip seymour hoffman exposed the disturbing face of heroin abuse. but first a 17-year-old unarmed teen is gunned down in a hail of bullets by a man who said he felt threatened. once again, a case revolves around florida's self-defense laws. that's coming up. when jake and i first set out on our own, we ate anything. but in time you realize the better you eat, the better you feel. these days we both eat smarter. and i give jake purina cat chow naturals. made with real chicken and salmon, it's high in protein like a cat's natural diet. and no added artificial flavors. we've come a long way.

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music davis and three friends were listening to as they sat in an suv in the parking lot of a jacksonville gas station. while initially dunn invoked florida's controversial stand your ground law, he's currently claiming self-defense. he said he also saw a gun, but no gun was found on the scene. though dunn's attorney has not filed a formal stand your ground motion, he did invoke the law in his opening statement. >> we're not here to change the laws. we're not here to say anybody deserved to lose their life. but under the law, it's justified. and michael dunn, after the facts of this case and the law, had every right under the law to not be a victim. >> now, following the shooting, dunn and his fiance reportedly fled the scene, returning to a hotel and ordering pizza. this week we also heard dramatic testimony from davis' three friends who were in the car when davis was killed.

>> what happened to jordan davis as tommy was backing up? did he stay sitting up? >> no, i tried to pull him down, but when i pulled him down, he just fell into my lap. >> how did you first learn that jordan davis had been shot? >> when tommy began to call our names. me and lee replied but jordan didn't. when we found out jordan was hit, that's when everybody went into a panic. >> did you touch anything that led you to believe he had been shot? >> yes. >> what? >> when i reached -- when i reached and touched him, blood appeared on my fingers. >> if you met jordan, know jordan, he had a big heart. just meeting him, you know you can get a vibe of what type of person he was. >> joining me now, former prosecutor faith jenkins and michael skolnik. thank you for joining me. >> thank you. >> i want to start with you, michael. let's talk about the premise of this case.

as i noted in the opening, there are some similarities and some important differences in this case. you do have an unarmed teenager who was shot. you had the invoking of stand your ground, although now it's really the self-defense laws that are being, i think, more closely scrutinized. talk to us about the premise of this case and why people are making these comparisons. >> sure. i think the biggest comparison here, obviously you have two black unarmed teenagers and two nonblack, white shooters who shoot these young teenagers. this case is a little different, however, because michael dunn left the scene. michael dunn, unlike george zimmerman, did not call the police. michael dunn did not turn himself in. he lefted scene, went to his hotel, ordered a pizza, had a rum and coke, walked his dog. the next morning when he woke up, he saw on the news jordan davis had been killed and got in his car and drove three hours back to his house and still never called the police. in this case, you also have witnesses. in zimmerman's case, you have very, very few witnesses. even in the zimmerman case, the

witnesses saw objects and shadows in the dark. in this case, you have witnesses who actually saw exactly what happened as it happened. >> you know, faith, i want to talk about the testimony of the fiance. that's how we learned a little bit more about what they did after the shooting. from a legal perspective, how damaging is it that they technically fled the scene, ordered pizza, went on about their life after shooting ten rounds? >> right. well, nothing about what they did and the actions that michael dunn took after he basically lit up this suv with bullets says self-defense. in fact, self-defense never came up in this allegation that jordan davis had a gun until after michael dunn was arrested and being interviewed by the police. he never mentioned the fact that there was a gunpointed at him so he says before that moment to his fiance, who he had been with for hours prior to him being interviewed by the police.

and the fact that he actually never called the police when he found out that jordan davis, one of the teenagers, had been killed in the suv, he drove three hours away. he was running. he never intended to call the police. they found him. what about that says self-defense? >> right. let's take a listen to some testimony from mr. dunn's fiance. >> did the defendant say anything about the music when he parked the car next to the red car? >> yes. >> and what did the defendant say? >> i hate that thug music. >> and what was your response to the defendant? >> i said, yes, i know. >> now, faith and michael, i want to get your reaction on this. one of the things we're seeing is this question about what role race and stereotypes may have played. that certainly suggests, to me, that there was certainly, you know, this idea that thug music -- i mean, that suggests, faith, that the shooter, mr.

dunn, really had some kind of bias potentially. >> right. and this is a clear-cut case of first-degree murder and a clear-cut, trumped-up defense of self-defense. michael dunn is taking his chances because he's a white man against four black teenagers playing rap music. he's going to take his chances against them. it's going to be a play on race and racial bias in the worst way in this trial because he wants these jurors to believe that because it's four black teenagers, of course he's in fear for his life by arguing they are inherently dangerous, inherently threatening and using that as a defense in a play on those emotions and stereotypes in this trial. >> michael, i want to read to you -- because the florida attorney's office released letters written by dunn, one to his grandmother, one to his daughter. i think they go very directly to this question and to this point. in the letter to his grandmother in february he says, i'm not really prejudice against race, but i have no use for certain

cultures. this gangster rap, ghetto talking thug culture that certain segments of society flock to is intolerable. to his daughter he says, this may sound a bit radical, but if more people would arm themselves and kill these "expletive" idiots when they're threatening you, eventually they may take the hint and change their behavior. i'm sure we're all going to be accused of race baiting, but those comments go to a certain bias that this person had when he potentially saw those four young men, heard that music. it sounds to me like that triggered something for him. >> well, i think also, karen, unlike the zimmerman case where we sort of talked a lot about race and wasn't really sure if he profiled him or he was black or whatever. here we have specific evidence of this man making very, very racist comments. the one thing i would say about what's happening in america right now and michael dunn's fear of the young black male is

this idea of implicit bias and perception of what black men and young black men are supposed to be. i think michael dunn sat in that car, heard hip-hop rap music loudly coming out of that car and thought four black kids in a car with tinted windows, rap music, they probably have guns, they probably are armed. so he thinks in his head that they have a gun, they're pointing the gun at him, but no gun was ever found. there was not a gun. and for the fiance to sit on the stand on saturday, yesterday, and cry and talk about how she had to go home because of her dog, they had killed -- excuse me, he had killed a child. and for them to worry more about their dog than a child is unexplainable. >> he repeatedly refers to these kids as thugs. not because of what they did. because he's the one that shot up their car and killed one of those kids. but because of who they are. >> you know, and michael, i want to follow up with you on the point that you were making. it strikes me that part of what we learn in the conversation we started to have in the aftermath

of the trayvon martin case is i think some people would expect that those four young boys, children, kids sitting in that car, that they should know that they might be scary and they should know. like it's on them rather than on, you know, others to kind of check themselves and what kind of stereotypes they may have against these kids. >> yeah, again, and also the defense attorney's strategy is they didn't call the police, they didn't act the right way, they didn't call 911, they stashed a weapon, they left the scene to go 100 yards away to check on their friend when, in fact, his client is the one who killed a child. and he's the one who left. he's the one who didn't call the police. again, this idea -- we went through this with trayvon. we went through this with richard sherman in the nfl. we seven saw this last night in a basketball player from oklahoma stay, marcus smart, in pushing the fan who might have called him the "n" word or a racial slur. this idea of what young black men should behave like when others are antagonizing them. >> and faith, last point to you. obviously this is bringing this whole issue of stand your ground

laws and florida's self-defense law, which as you point out is pretty shaky ground here. it really has, i think, raised a level of consciousness across the country about the kinds of attitudes and the way that attitudes and biases can play into laws like this and the excuses people will use after the fact. >> right. because when you have a place like florida, very liberal gun laws a lot of people have guns, and you combine that with laws like stand your ground that empower and emboldened people to use their guns, then you have the law, which is a perception, right. it's what you reasonably believe you are afraid of. and you combine that with the notion of young black men being threatening and dangerous and you have cases like this going to trial. in other states, a case like this would never make it into a trial courtroom. there would be a plea. but in florida, they go forward. >> you know, very quickly, michael, what kind of pressure is the prosecutor under in this case? this is, you know, within seven

months or so. here they are. somewhat similar case. not exactly the same. i would say that angela cory and john guy are under a bit of pressure to get a conviction. >> i think a tremendous amount of pressure. the one thing i would say that i see very different than the zimmerman case is they are forcing michael dunn to take the stand, unlike zimmerman. they introduce his video re-enactment as his testimony. they're forcing michael dunn. the only person who says there was a gun is michael dunn. he will have to take the stand to prove that point. >> well, it's a fascinating case. we will keep an eye on it. thank you to faith jenkins and michael skolnik. >> thank you. >> thank you, karen. >> up next, our disrupter of the week a man of the law who could become an all-time first. that's ahead. t on cue. it's more than just a meal, it's meow mix mealtime. with wholesome ingredients and irresistible taste, it's the only one cats ask for by name. [ male announcer ] new vicks dayquil severe.

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case of 46-year-old actor philip seymour hoffman. but evidence found by police on the scene, prescription drugs and nearly 50 envelopes of a substance believed to be heroin, strongly suggests that hoffman died of a drug overdose. the suspicion of a heroin overdose has shed light on the proliferation of the use of heroin and the changing face of users in america. heroin used to conjure a gritty 1970s image of addicts on an urban street corner with track marks up their arms. that was before the hiv/a.i.d.s. crisis in the '80s and the fear of sharing needles. now, today the heroin crisis has spread to rural and suburban communities across the country. users tend to be more affluent, former prescription drug users, and overdoses have dramatically increased. between 2007 and 2012, the number of heroin users doubled from 373,000 to nearly 700,000.

more than 3,000 people died of a heroin-related overdose in 2010 alone. and that's up 45% from what we saw just four years earlier. americans from all walks of life, doctors, lawyers, teenagers, and housewives, are battling the highly addictive drug. in the state of vermont, the crisis is so bad the governor dedicated his entire 34-minute state of the state address to the issue just last month. so how did we get here, and what can be done to fight the growing problem of heroin use and the overdose in america? joining me now, u.s. attorney from ohio and president of the detroit recovery project andre johnson. thanks to you both for joining me. >> thanks for having me. >> thank you. >> i want to start with you, andre. it's sort of surprising. i think it was surprising for me, certainly, and probably a lot of people to learn that heroin addiction is now really coming out of an addiction to prescription drugs, which heroin

is cheaper than the prescription drugs at this point. >> exactly. and what has happened is people, particularly in the suburbs, have begun to use oxycotton. once they can no longer access that, they kind of revert to a cheaper drug, which is heroin. it's a lot more cheaper than purchasing an oxycontin pill. you can buy heroin for as little as $5. >> steven, heroin abuse is also -- it's a huge problem in this country. we were showing abuse among first-time users increased nearly 60% in the last decade from 90,000 to 156,000. you know, in addition to this addiction to oxycontin, what other factors are driving the increase in the use of heroin? >> well, you know, there's a bunch of things going on, but one of them is just what you and andre have said, which is people

are literally being flooded with these pills. you know, in ohio, i'll give you a shocking statistic, which is in 1997, if you look at prescribing practices, there were seven pills prescribed for every person in ohio. fast forward just ten years or so, and now there's a 900% increase. 67 pills prescribed for every man, woman, and child who live in the state. what's happening is, karen, those pills are sitting in people's medicine cabinets, waiting for next thanksgiving or new year's or christmas where the nephew or niece or cousin comes over, looks in the cabinet, pours the pills in their pocket, and they're on their way to being a heroin addict. it's a huge, huge problem. and then, just what andre said, heroin costs about 10% of what the pills cost. you get hooked, then you can't afford to keep taking those pills. so all the sudden, you're out and you're becoming a heroin addict. we have a horrible, horrible problem. >> andre, what i found shocking

about this -- i mean, i remember as a kid and in the '70s, heroin was, you know, highly addictive. as i mentioned in the opening, a very stereotypical, you know, type of user of the drug. now, to what you were saying before, we're seeing it, because of the prescription drugs, we're seeing it all over country in places that i think are unexpected and really changing the face of who these drug users are. >> and i think what has happened is the oxycontin, it was a proliferation of oxycontin users of the years. you'll hear about more drugs more so than other things. in the '60s and '70s, it was the pot, the heroin. in the '80s, the kcrack-cocaine

explodes. in the '90s, it was prescription drugs. then a year or two later, they found themselves addicted with an opiate addiction. when thayou have that opiate addiction, the only other thing to feed that addiction with is heroin. that heroin is just like any other addiction. if it goes untreated, it gets worse. >> steven, to you, one of the things that struck me in this case was that they arrested three people within a week of hoffman's death. that's pretty rare. i feel like we would not have such a huge problem if law enforcement was able to make that -- had that kind of arrest record consistently. what are the challenges for law enforcement in making the arrests and going after the drug dealers, not just the individuals who are abusing drugs? >> i mean, in my opinion over the last four years or so, law enforcement has been really focusing a lot of resources on this problem. i'll tell you, in my office

alone, just last year we did about 130 cases all involving sort of significant dealers. we try to trace our way back up the line. the problem, i think, though, is it's not just a law enforcement problem. so it's not going to just be a law enforcement solution. we're going to need the health care industry to step up. we've been working with the cleveland clinic here and metro health hospital. we're going to need more money for treatment. what andre does, he'll be the first to tell you, there are people who want treatment who can't get a bed for treatment. and we're going to need families and educators and teachers to, you know, get out of the denial mode and realize that heroin is not just somebody else's problem, not some other generation's problem, but it's everywhere. it's in the city, it's in the suburbs, it's in rural communities. or else we're never going to make any progress on this problem. >> all right. well, thank you. oh, quickly, andre? >> yeah, i just want to add he's absolutely right. we need a more strong

collaboration, partnership of schools, churches, business community, treatment programs. >> we're going to to leave it there. thanks to you both. that does it for me. thanks so much for joining us. i'll see you back here next weekend at 4:00 p.m. eastern. until then, have a great week. i have the flu, i took medicine but i still have symptoms. [ sneeze ] [ male announcer ] truth is not all flu products treat all your symptoms. what? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus severe cold and flu speeds relief to these eight symptoms. [ breath of relief ] thanks. [ male announcer ] you're welcome. ready? go.

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