yep! so is your husband off the hook? no. he went out for milk last week and came back with a puppy. hold it. hold it. hold it. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness. hello, disrupters. i'm karen finney. up this week, the gop, hillary clinton's confidante and more subpoenas in the bridgegate scandal. >> there is no republican party. >> the gop has lost that loving feeling. >> texas senator ted cruz, the high priest of self-promotion. >> why did he do that? is he cuckoo? >> if they took ted cruz out to dinner right now, he'd have to have a food taster. >> everyone wanted what barack obama wanted, what nancy pelosi

wanted, what harry reid wanted. >> how much do you hate ted cruz if you're mitch mcconnell right now. >> there comes a time when there has to be some pragmatism. >> what is the end game? >> is this a mutiny cruz is trying to start? >> ted cruz 1, mitch mcconnell 0. >> ground control to the republican party, is there anybody who knows how to fly this plane? this was supposed to be a good week for the grand old party, at least better than the debacles for the last two weeks, which saw multiple we reresponses of the state of the union. supposedly everyone was on the same page about avoiding another embarrassing fight over raising the debt ceiling.

but good ol' ted cruz, the junior senator from texas had a plan of his own, insisting on a 60-vote threshold, meaning many of his colleagues would have to vote yes to avoid catastrophe, knowing they'd likely pay for it dearly back home where they faced tea party challengers and just like that, one rebel leader took down the the others and propped up his tea party. with us the senior reporter for talking points memo. michelle, what is it about ted cruz? i want to play a little bit of sound from an interview he did this week with mark levin and then get your reaction. >> make no mistake about it, this was their decide outcome. app awful lot of the republicans

wanted exactly what barack obama wand, exactly what nancy pelosi wanted and harry reid wanted was to raise the debt ceiling but they wanted to be able to tell what they view as their foolish, gullible constituents back home they didn't do it and they're mad because by refusing to con isn't to that, they had to come out in the open and hadmit what they're doing and nothing upsets them more. >> ted team is on a totally didn't team, isn't he? >> he has a very particular constituency he's playing to, the far right of the party. he's kind of the extreme version of government bad and he's playing to a base that doesn't care about kbgoverning, doesn't care about getting things done, doesn't care about fighting the good fight. that is what counts for cruz. >> to that point, byron york

wrote on friday that republicans should be wary and remember he does represent a sizable portion of the base of the party. then you've got groups like freedom works and others who are out there creating that additional fund-raising machine for some of those taken party candidates. he may be laying the foundation for his own presidential, it's probably not a bad idea for him to cater to that base. >> that's exactly why he's doing that and he knows what he's doing. i can't remember seeing a senator ripping into his own party as a bunch of liars and cowards and cynics. he's putting republicans on the spot. he was remarkably honest about this. he's putting them on the spot and saying you need to put up o or shut up. don't say i want to avoid default -- avoid catastrophe back home and say i don't want to cast that vote because i'm going to get heat from the

right. he knows it's putting them in a difficult position and he doesn't care. there's been a narrative brewing that ted cruz is trying to make nice with his party after that catastrophe and that shutdown. it's completely false. >> i don't think anybody thinks that anymore. >> absolutely not. he's going to continue to fight the tea party fight with everything he's got and he didn't care if it upsets his party. it endears him to the base more. >> that does seem to be part of the narrative he's trying to build. he's the guy that's going to be the truth teller. and speaking of making nice, you have rand paul, who seems to be the one who is trying to make nice but be a little independent but make nice with the establishment in his party. we have a little sound of him from an interview with none other than glen beck. let's take a listen. >> i think republicans will not win again in my lifetime for the presidency unless they become a new gop, a new republican party.

republicans haven't gone to african-americans or to hispanics and said, you know what, the war on drugs, big government has had a racial outcome. it's disproportionately affected the poor, black and brown among us and we need to have better criminal justice. there is a struggle going on within the republican party. i'm not ashamed of it, i'm proud of the fact that there is a struggle and i will struggle to make the republican party a bigger party, more diverse party and a party that can win national elections again. >> rand paul thinks he's going to make the party bigger, that he's the answer. ted cruz going to essentially make the party smaller with his answers. i don't quite see how that shakes itself out. >> what it means for 2016 is you really hope the party is looking to the governors. if you talk to big fund-raisers in the gop or a strategist out there, they do not feel that the candidates from the senate or the congress are the wave of the

future for the party in terms of the presidential race. now, every senator wakes up in the morning and sees a president in the mirror, but the rest of the party is not quite so convinced. >> every governor, too. >> you're exactly right. it's very clear this rift within the republican party isn't going anywhere and as we head into 2014, again, you've got tea party challengers, and you've got people like ted cruz perfectly willing to squeeze the leadership of his party time and again. that actually is going to perfect the party, as they say, in 2016, though he doesn't seem to care because people feel like gerrymandered disabilities are all good for 2014. >> what's most striking to me about that rand paul interview is that everyone in the republican party seems to agree the party needs to fundamentally transform itself to stay alive into the future. they all have very different ideas how to do it. there's no convergence on where

you go. rand paul and ted cruz want to dig in deeper to their ideological convictions. if you stand where you are, we'll be great as a party. so there's no consensus. at the same time i think it's important to note that republicans will probably be fine in 2014 elections. the deck is stacked in their favor in a major way and they're probably going to pick up seats i think in both chambers. >> michelle, i don't buy into this whole gloom and doom sna scenario because i feel like it's a life time between now and november. i think the push on democrats to increase the minimum wage, when you see the impact that could have in some of these race, there might be a chance for democrats to at least improve their margin, let's say. >> well, that is very optimistic. it is just too early. when the republicans were shutting down the government, that was it. the republicans were over.

then with obamacare's botched rollout, that's, it the democrats are over. we're going to go back and forth a million times because of districting. it seems unlikely the house will improve for the democrats very much but i'm with you that the republicans will take back over the senate, i think that's overly optimistic. >> thank you both. >> we await the verdict in the dunn trial in florida. we'll bring you the latest as we get it. coming up what the 1990's diary of a hillary clinton confidante teach us about the perception of women then and now. and later, more subpoenas and questions about bridgegate. that will be ahead. let me talk to you about retirement. a 401(k) is the most sound way to go. let's talk asset allocation. sure.

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earlier this week the conservative washington free beacon web site reported on a trove of never-before-seen docks, strategy memos, correspondence and personal reflections from hillary clinton's best friend, diane player, a political science professor at the university of ma arkansas, who passed away in 2000. the hillary papers, as they've been dubbed, folks on hillary's time as wife of a presidential candidate through her time as first lady. having worked for hillary clinton in the 90s, reading the documents was a little like rereading the history, the good, the bad, the ugly.

it's what the reporting reflected about the ongoing stereotypes about hillary and the role of the first lady and the changing role of women that i found most interesting and least discussed. joining me editor at large for salon.com, joan walsh and sophia nelson. thanks for joining me. >> you and i were talking about this earlier this week, joan. the media coverage was so sexist, so much of the coverage about this period, talking about she was ruthless, she kept a list. men do it all the time and yes in the 90s in particular, those qualities were seen as not becoming for women. >> i think we still suffer with those problems but things have changed. what's striking about the

coverage and the "free beacon" article in particular, it opens with the poll that found hill hl ruthless. but we're talking about 22 years ago. we're talking about someone who was not that well known, who had not yet had a public career. this woman that we're talking about has now come to fruition. she has been, yes, first lady, then senator from new york and then the secretary of state and now is one of the most, if not the most, popular women in the world. it's a snapshot of a moment in time but what it really shows, i think, is how much things have changed. >> soia one of the this evenings that struck me in some of the papers was reminiscing about -- i actually was sitting next it hillary the day where she found out her father had a heart attack, she's trying to figure out what to do, her father's health is failing, there's a conversation between she and diane about her daughter. and not much of that made much of the coverage but it strikes

me that a lot of times with women, we aren't portrayed as whole beings. we are pigeon holed into this category or that category. why is it so hard to believe that woman who is smart, capable, is also a loving daughter, a loving wife, a good friend? >> i think joan is exactly right. this is 20-plus years ago. i think frankly, and i would say this to my republican friends who i know have seized on this over the last few weeks, the reality is the old narrative of hillary clinton is old. they're going to have to come out with something new. a large has changed in the world in 20 years since hillary clinton was first lady. i said this to someone a few days ago that michelle obama was the beneficiary of the heat that hillary clinton took as first lady being the first baby boomer, being a lawyer and being a career girl. mrs. obama was a career girl but she didn't take near the heat.

they tried but i think that hillary clinton is a pioneer in this regard and i think that a lot of the attacks against her have frankly just been unkind and unfair. and to your point, karen, she is a mom, she is a daughter, she's a wife. she went through the most unbelievable personal drama that any of us would have ever imagined with the monica lewinsky situation and what woman among us would have handled it with the dignity she did. people thought she was ruthless. i don't agree with that. i think she was humiliated and she held her head up. i want to know more about hillary the woman, i want to know what hillary's code is, what hillary's going to do for america. >> i think to that point, joan, i think there are clues to that that, again, weren't part of what the coverage talked about in terms of what her values are, the decision to stay in her marriage or what have you.

to this issue of sort of women add the changing role of women, one of the documents and there is a pole that shows people are not comfortable with her, this mom, in the corporate world who worked as a lawyer. some have made the same criticism of michelle obama suggesting that she's wasting her law degree so that switch is so interesting within 23 years. >> i think with both women we see americans project their feelings about the place of women on to these first ladies and they judge them in different ways so that hillary was judged for leaving the home, she kept her name for a while. she was the bread winner in the family, as was michele. and she decided that she vaech wanted to have some kind of policy role in the white house and she settled on health care and that didn't end so well but she was very smart in choosing that. but she's criticized for that.

20 years later mrs. obama is criticized for not pursuing as important or high profile a policy portfolio. so in a way you can't win. but what i think our current first la first lady has figured out it doesn't matter, don't listen to them. i'm sure she has tough moments but i think she learned from hillary clinton that they really are going to criticize you no matter what you do. you're also a young woman. we don't know what history will right for her or for secretary clinton. >> go ahead quickly, sophia. >> i would end with oprah says it best, what other people think of me is not my business. i think hillary clinton has to adopt that has mantra and i think she has to some degree. >> i think as women, the more things change, the more they stay the same. i think hillary and, frankly, each first lady helps to move

that role along but i do think they are a rorschach test or the embodiment of what's going on in our minds and how we feel about women in our society at the time. we have a wonderful role model now and i thought hillary was an incredible role model at the time. thank you. >> later, a story you don't hear much about but we should discuss more, ongoing war in afghanistan. but first we'll go to florida, where the jury is deliberating in the trial of michael dunn. the latest developments from today. hing we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people. so you have time to focus on the things you love.

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she looks happy about those prizes! [ female announcer ] dawn does more. [ sponge ] so it's not a chore. coming up, while governor christie is in puerto rico today, the bridgegate scandal widens with more subpoenas. we'll bring you the latest developments next. and we're keeping an eye on the weekend deliberations in the

florida trial of michael dunn, who claims he shot 17-year-old jordan davis in self-defense. that's ahead.

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with three types of good bacteria. i should probably take this. live the regular life. phillips'. governor chris christie returned from his trip to illinois to find 18 new subpoenas had been issued in the bridgegate scandal, investigating whether false testimony was given about the lane closures. documents released after the testimony suggest the study may have been conducted later to cover up political motivations for those lane closures. questions have been raised by who prepared mr. baroni to

appear before the committee. and the portrait that emerges shows a shrewd politician who creatively used his legal and political power to forge key alliances while carefully shaping his image. i'm joined by paul butler, a former federal prosecutor and bert ross, the former mayor of f ft. lee. thanks to you both for joining me. bert, i want to start with you and talk a little bit about christie, the prosecutor. i think one of the things we learned in this "new republic" piece is that he very wisely figured out to use carrots and sticks, if you will, in the negotiations on various cases he was working on. does that surprise you? >> well, it did come as a

revelation. i, like a lot of people, thought he spoke with straight tongue. what we're finding is that he's a fraud. his entire image self-created was of a reform are and he's anything but. he looks more and more like a machine politician unfortunately. >> new jersey politics, let's be honest, has something of a reputation. you as being pretty tough and you yourself have had your own experiences with it. is that a function of just kind of the new jersey political machine or is this chris christie kind of taking it to a new level? >> i don't think he's taking it to a new level. my father used to work for a company in jersey city in the 1930s. when frank hague, who was mayor, when his machine came to the company there and asked for a political donation and they turned him down, every single truck leaving that factory got a ticket within two blocks. so they played hard ball. i'm not talking chris matthews

hard ball, i'm talking about new jersey politics hard ball. >> the governor did say it's not a a bean bag game. >> politics is not being a prosecutor. the concern is that he did this as a prosecutor who is sworn to uphold the law without fear or favor. when you have the power to put people in prison, you're supposed to be more judicious. but we're seeing a pattern now of a man who uses his official power to pay back his enemies and enrich his friends. >> let's talk about that. "the washington post" reported christie may have used his friends to help friends and political allies, often cutting deals called deferred prosecution agreements, which would allow corporations or people to essentially avoid charges in, chan exchange for m certain other requirements. tell us about what the intention was to be and where mr. christie

may have gone off the rails. >> the idea is it's not fear for shareholders and employees of a corporation to be punished if it's the corporation itself that's messed up. she's have all been controversial. even regular prosecutions of ordinary citizens, other people are affected, like families and communities. so a lot of us wonder why doesn't this apply to everyone, why just corporations? what it does, the prosecutor gets to work out this deal where he defers prosecution, really says he won't bring the case if the corporation does what he wants, which is often to pay a lot of money, pay some kind of fine. >> one of reports indicates the way mr. christie engaged in this behavior resulted in a change in the rules down in washington, d.c. >> karen, it's unbelievable. he hooked up folks as a prosecutor. he hooked up seton hall with $5

million, hooked up his man john ashcroft with a $50 million gig and even the famous david samson got hooked up for $10 million. the department of justice said we never thought to make a rule against this because it's so obviously wrong but they had to because of this misconduct by a prosecutor. >> i found it very surprising this week, bert, when i read there was a rule specifically created because of the way that chris christie conducted business in new jersey. but when you look at what's happening next in this investigation and the fact that it's widening, it does suggest, you know, again this idea of a pattern of types of behavior. i feel like the story talks about his time as u.s. attorney but a pattern may be emerging in terms of how he conducts business as governor, as a political operative. >> i think that's exactly the point and i couldn't agree with paul more. it looks like the governor when

he was u.s. attorney was using it to get ready for his gubernatorial run. that of course is objectionable. there's a stench out there and it reminds me when we used to drive on the new jersey turnpike and they had pig farms and we all this to close the windows because the stench was so overwhelming. all of this create as smell in the nostrils. >> i want to talk to you about this investigation and this parcel of land. you were part of a case in the 70s, it's next to the george washington bridge. a lot of people believe that was at the heart of what was behind the political motivations for the lane closures, not the traffic study.

why do we keep come being back to this parcel of land? >> when i was bribed a million dollars by the mafia, that was owned by a family and the mob was fronting for a developing firm. it is probably the most valuable piece of real estate in new jersey. it provides panoramic views of new york city. can you just go within a minute and be on the bridge. so if you're commuting, a lot of people in that part of jersey commute. so there's a great incentive, both steve kornacki and my wife both agree that that may be the motivation for the closing of the lanes. i just doesnn't know. you can be sure that the mayor of ft. lee, not me but the current mayor, was very much on the radar of the governor, even though he proclaims to the

contrary. >> thank you bert ross and paul butler. we'll keep watching as it unfolds. >> coming up, a florida jury one against deliberates on a self-defense trial. that's coming up. ♪ we are one, under the sun ♪ under the sun... [ female announcer ] fiber and protein. together as one. introducing new fiber one protein cereal. ♪ ♪ where you think you're gonna go ♪ ♪ when your time's all gone? [ male announcer ] live a full life. the new lexus ct hybrid with an epa estimated 42 mpg. the further you go, the more interesting it gets. lease the 2014 ct 200h for $299 a month for 27 months. see your lexus dealer. there's nothing like being your own boss!

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but we're not staying in the kitchen. just start the slow cooker, add meat and pour in campbell's slow cooker sauce. by the time you get home, dinner is practically done. and absolutely delicious. everyone is cooking with new campbell's slow cooker sauces. the jury in the michael dunn loud music murder trial, a case that's brought florida's stand your ground law back in the spotlight has now been deliberating 28 hours. while that's longer than the zimmerman jury took to return a not guilty verdict, there are no clues as to how they'll decide. yesterday it was thought there might be a hint when the jury asked if they could reach a verdict on not all of the

counts. the judge answered, they, they could. now, at issue for the jury to decide was this a case of self-defense or premeditated murder? it could come down to just a he said/she said. take a listen. >> how did you describe the weapon? did you say you had a sword? did you say they had a machete? >> gun. >> you used the word gun? >> yes, i did. >> did the defendant ever tell you he saw a gun in that red suv? >> no. >> did the defendant tell you he saw a weapon of any kind in that suv? >> no. >> the jury could make a decision as soon as today or tomorrow, which as jordan davis' mother reminded us would have been jordan's 19th birthday. joining me now, executive director of the dream defenders. ken, as the jury is continuing

deliberation, we thought there might have been an answer yesterday. take us into the jury room and give as you sense of what it is you think -- what's making their deliberations such a challenge? >> well, we're always speculating in every single trial because the jury is back in the jury room and we don't have a window to see into what exactly is going on in that jury room. we can say from having observed this trial, it's a very strong second degree murder case. the prosecution has an indictment for first degree murder and you could make arguments there was a first degree murder, premeditation in the 15 or 30 seconds it took to get the gun and fire it, but in my view it's a much stronger second degree murder case. we do have a window unfortunately or fortunately today. the jury has asked some questions which give us an opportunity to know what's going on in that jury room. the questions go to whether or not they can find on one count that self-defense in fact

applies and does that have to apply to other counts. we can surmise from that kind of question that they may be leaning towards a not guilty verdict on count one. >> we're looking at live pictures here from the jury room. i want to make sure our audience understands. yesterday the question was can we find on one and not all five? now it sounds like they're getting more specific to the one count and what do we make of the other four counts at this point? >> right. the question -- the latest question is to the judge and the judge speculated out loud, the question was if there is in fact a finding of self-defense, does that have to apply to all the other counts? and the answer from the judge is no, you have to look at each individual count and make a determination as to whether or not the self-defense applies based on the law and the facts in the case. so they have to look at each count separately. but that questions kind of suggests that the highest count,

the first degree murder count, may be in fact one where they find self-defense applies and that would mean they're considering a not guilty verdict on count one. >> you know, phil, i would find -- i think many of us would find it shocking, just given what we know of the case. this case has been particularly high profile, obviously in the wake of the zimmerman verdict and this issue that while stand your ground was mentioned, it not quite the center of this case. but the issue of sort of i think the gun culture and this idea -- potentially also this idea that race and bias played in this case. >> absolutely -- >> let have phillip. go ahead. >> i'm sorry. i think we've got to be ton eho. this is a really, really cruel deja vu. we're waiting on pins and needles to see if a verdict or justice will be served in a case that from all appearances is a

clear-cut case. it really sad that even further the clarity of justice is shrouded by a law that was put in place by an insatiable gun lobby in the state of florida. it has no grounds to stand on in the court and so it's provided cover for people to use hate to murder. no matter what happens in that courtroom today, we lost jordan davis and that was the cause of rampant message of criminalization of young black people and young people of color. and that's what michael dunn had in his head when he approached that car and did what he did, which is take the life of somebody. it's a sad day no matter what happens. we're waiting and waiting on a verdict when quite clearly, something should have come down already and it is, it's cruel. >> we are looking at live pictures from the courthouse. ken, to the point that phillip just made, i mean, i'm not going to play it but we have sound from the trial suggesting that there was racially charged

language. they talked about gangsters, talking about thug music. i wonder what role does that play in terms of trying to determine if you were in the jury, does that go to determining whether or not what the intention was? >> well, i think it clearly does. i think we're pretending if we say that race was not an issue somewhere in this case. and we know that from the evidence. we know that from the words that you used mentioned that were stone by the defendant. he described thug music. he wrote letters after the shooting from jail indicating some racism on his part. and maybe the prosecutors in this case should have focused more heavily on those subsequent letters from the jail, which can be related back to his state of mind at the time of the shooting. that goes to premeditation. i think it clearly is something that has to be considered by the jury in the back, whether

they're actually speaking it out loud or just thinking it in their minds is anyone's guess. >> what impact do you think the outcome of the case will have -- you've been involved in trying to repeal stand your ground laws not just in florida but other parts of the country. what role do you think a verdict in this case will have in those snefr efforts? >> i think it depends on the verdict. public opinion about the law is already at a fever pitch but all indications are that is will be a guilty verdict. organize, organize, organize. we've got a law that on the books and in practice is horrendous. it's led to the death of many young people of color in the state of florida and it has to go. and so i think folks are really galvanized and michael dunn and george zimmerman are doing a great -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt. but judge russell healy has a

note saying "we have reached a verdict on four of the five verdicts. cannot come to a consensus on count one, that's first degree murder. they're now going to be given the allen charge, which instructs the jury to go back and try to reach a verdict on the dead locked charge. lisa, what can we expect? >> they are saying as to the fifth count they're saying they're not able to reach a verdict. the judge is doing what he's required to do, to give the allen charge, which essentially says please get back in there, there's not going to be another jury that's better than you so

please, please try. if they come back out and say we're dead locked, that's it. then the state will have the option of retrying on the fifth count that they're dead locked on. >> carey, what's your sense of how long they will deliberate on this fifth count? >> it's been an exhausting couple of days for them. they'll go back in now with this allen charge. they have the potential of the judge saying because of the hour of the day, if they come back in let's say an hour, hour and a half and say, judge, we cannot come to a conclusion here, it is at the judge's discretion to sisay i want you to sleep on this tonight and come back tomorrow or he may look at the number of

hours deliberated and say you know what, let's look at the other counts. it is more likely he will have them sleep on it, only because of the amount of time and effort that's been put into this and it's sort of that one last college try to let it think about it one night resting because they're exhausted. the reason he won't keep them in there for hour upon hour tonight is because that can become an appellate issue. it can be -- assuming it's a conviction, it can become an issue saying someone on the jury was so exhausted, they gave in just so they could go home. >> ken, i want to get your reaction. just repeating, the jury handed a note to the judge suggesting they reached a verdict on four

of the five verdicts but they cannot come to consensus on count one, first degree murder. and the judge has given the allen charge and asked them to go back and keep at it. ken, what's your reaction? >> it makes sense. we know what the holdup has been. first degree murder in florida has to have a 12-member jury, unlike any other crime where you are only great six-member jury. you have to have 12 people unanimously agreeing on count one and they don't have that yet. so the name of the game right now, the word of today is discretion. it's the judge's discretion to read the allen charge and make a determination as to how long he's going to allow them to deliberate. whether he lets them stay overnight until tomorrow is all in the discretion of the judge. this judge has the determination to make, unless the jury comes back and says we can't go on any

further, we're hung up and then the court would declare a mistrial and the prosecution would have the option of retrying this case again. >> lisa bloom, in terms of the evidence that's been presented in this case, why do you think or can you surmise that this jury is having trouble with that one count, that count one of first degree murder? >> well, you know, i blame the professionals in the courtroom, not the jury, just as i did in the trayvon martin case. i think that case was lost by the prosecution, it was a very winnable case. i have a book coming out on that very subject. in this case it's the same thing, two of the same prosecutors of the george zimmerman case. the parallels are getting to be eerie. these are the same two prosecutor who is lost a similar case. why the state of florida then put them on this case is beyond me. i run a law firm. if my associates lost a case and i got a similar one, i wouldn't put those same associates on the

next case. it doesn't make. these are prosecutors that are afraid to talk about racism in the courtroom. they had racist letters from prison written by the defendant, signed by him. they didn't do that. they had neighbors who could talk about his use of the "n" word, his threatening women allegedly. they did do that. these are prosecutor who is put on a case -- their philosophy is put it all up there, see what sticks and see what the jury is going to do instead of vigorously arguing the case, really going for blood, really trying to put it away in closing argument the way it should be. they lost the zimmerman case. it doesn't look good on the top charge. >> ken, to this point it, does strike me that this prosecuting team, the pressure was on and particularly given, as lisa has said and many i think felt that the zimmerman case was a winnable case, we can debate that. but point being, the stakes were pretty high for angela cory and

john guy. i'm surprised to the point that lisa's make they go didn't use some of this evidence to make their case stronger. >> i'm in total agreement with lisa bloom. i did 35 first degree murder trials as a homicide prosecutor and i only had run not guilty. it wasn't because i was such a great lawyer, it was because i did exactly what lisa just described. i was aggressive within the bounds of ethics in the law in presenting my case to that jury. that is how you get convictions. it doesn't just come out of thin air. you have to be able to be in that courtroom and articulating as clearly and as vigorously as you can the evidence before that jury to get a conviction. you have a very high burden beyond a reasonable doubt. >> i'm going to go to carey sanders in a minute. ken, what is the reluctance to talk about race in this case and other cases? if did seem as lisa pointed out there was strong evidence.

there were letters, there were comments that he made. why -- what is the hesitation there? >> i don't understand it because relevance is the key thing that you have in the evidence code. that's the first line that you have to get through in order to have evidence admissible in court. and the racist comments from this defendant are extremely relevant. they go to count one, premeditation. they go to a lesser included second degree murder. so i don't understand why they're afraid to just attack that issue and just bring it out there right in front instead of having it the pink elephant in the room. i don't know the answer, what lies between the ears of the prosecutors. >> carey sanders, you're still outside the courthouse and there are people milling around. are there crowds gathering? what's happening? >> there are. there are protesters here that are waiting for the verdict and have been here over the last

four days to determine whether they're going to be happy with what they hear. i think one of the things that's interesting and i'm curious about ken and lisa's response to this is when you look at this case and you look at the george zimmerman case and remember that angela cory was the special prosecutor in this case and now here she is in this case, one of the biggest complaints people had was they did the arm chair quarterbacking looking at the zimmerman case was the sense that this was overcharged. and now that we see in this particular case the jury was dead locked on whether this is a first degree murder, second degree murder, manslaughter or whether it was justified, it may be when we finally hear what the jurors have to say, assume they go talk, that there will be similar criticism about this being an overcharged case, that if it was a second degree murder case, would you have a six-member jury and finding consensus among six people might be earlier. >> what i'm hearing from your

criticism is more about the way the prosecution prosecuted its case and quite literally what they did and didn't use in terms of evidence. but to carey's question, is there an issue of being an overcharged case? was first degree too far? should they have only gone for second degree? >> it's both. this case was overcharged and underprosecuted, just like the george zimmerman case. this should have been a second degree murder case. it's very difficult for these prosecutors to win that this was a premeditated murder. most people think about that as something that people think about for a long time, they're lying in wait. yes, technically premeditation can be formed in an instant but why set up a higher burden for your prosecutors in a courtroom than you need to. second degree is a more appropriate charge and manslaughter underneath it. it was the same mistake she made and now she made the same

mistake. this is a real problem. >> one of the issues also in the zimmerman case that we heard after the fact was the instructions, that there was confusion around the instructions. to this point of was this an overcharged case, was there something in the process or the way was jury was instructed that may be making their deliberations more complicated than they should be? >> absolutely. instructions are complicated no matter what the criminal charge is. it's already difficult for jurors to sift through law that lawyers debate on every word and every sentence. and here what we have is an overcharged case, i've been saying that from the beginning. this is a very strong second degree murder case. it has all of what you expect in a second degree murder case. that is the law that could have been focused on with a six-member jury. but the prosecution overcharged,

went for first degree murder, now there's a 12-member jury and they focus primarily on first degree murder and premeditation, rather than the case that really was the heart of what happened here, a second degree murder case. it's between confusion on the premeditation instructions, now you throw in the nra-backed stand your ground law and you have a problem. >> phillip, i want to get your take. to me it's not just the stand your ground law but the sort of gun culture that, it sorts of creates this environment that says it's okay if i feel like i'm threatened, ilt okt's okay e to just shoot somebody. i do think that leads to a behavior and attitude that is very dangerous. this is a gentleman who shot these ten rounds and then went home and ordered pizza. >> you all have touched on a few subjects i want to get on quickly.

it is about a gun problem in a rampant culture of hate. people do not want to talk about race in this country in a real way. it the third rail of politics. peep want to skim over it and ask where it doesn't exist. michael dunn lived in a world where every time he turned on the television, there was a young black person or african-american person that was a men as to society. the lobby in florida, miss marion hammer and the good folks at the nra in florida have ensured there's a cover for this hate, this racism and venom that is all over our state and this country. we need to tuke about it and talk about angela cory. i'll be frank. angela cory is inept. they've been dealing with angela cory for years. so she's uses all of her energy

to put i don't think people of color in jail but she's incapable if there's a young person being killed in this state. young people are dieing in the state of florida. young people are dying all around this country and because of the nra, because every time it provides profits for private companies, the go group, youth services international, we overlook it. so it is -- it very disheartenening and it's angering when you have a case like this, i'm starting to think it's a little bit intentional. >> thank you, phillip, thank you lisa bloom and msnbc will bring you the latest outcomes as we get them.

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