hello, disrupters. i'm karen finney. in this hour, we'll look at the impact of yet another verdict involving an unarmed black teenage boy whose assailant isn't found guilty of murder. we'll also have the political headlines later in the show. >> we can't overlook the facts. young people are dying in the state of florida. >> the jury failed to reach a verdict in the murder charge of the man who shot a teen to death. >> the 12-member jury returned a verdict of guilty on four of five charges. >> but after four days of deliberation on that charge of first-degree murder, they couldn't reach a consensus. >> we intend to retry him. >> what did the defendant say? >> i hate that thug music. >> these are prosecutors who are afraid to talk about race in the courtroom. >> you know why he didn't duck? because he was getting out of the car with a weapon after telling michael dunn, you're

dead [ bleep ]. >> people do not want to talk about race in this country. >> it wasn't allowed to be said in the courtroom that he was a good kid. >> young people are dying all around this country. >> and we will continue to wait for justice for jordan. jury in the michael dunn loud music trial reached a verdict last night. after almost 32 hours of deliberations over the course of four days, dunn was convicted of attempted murder and shooting a deadly missile into a vehicle, which was occupied by four unarmed teens as they sat in a parked suv playing music. but the jury couldn't decide if the fact that three of the ten bullets he fired, which hit and killed 17-year-old jordan davis, constituted murder. this all goes back to the night of november 23rd, 2012, at a gas station in jacksonville, florida, when dunn shot at the unarmed teens after an argument

over the volume of the music the boys were playing. music that dunn has described as thug music. dunn claims that he feared for his life and saw a gun in the car. in florida, because of the state's stand your ground law, it didn't matter that davis didn't actually have a gun. all that mattered was that dunn believed his life was in danger before opening fire in self-defense. his defense attorney said after the verdict was read that dunn asked him, how is this happening? describing him in, quote, a state of disbelief. today would have been jordan davis' 19th birthday. joining me now, former criminal prosecutor faith jenkins and legal analyst for avo.com lisa bloom. lisa bloom is also the author of the fourth coming book "suspicion nation." thanks to you both for joining me. faith, i want to start with you. there is something about this idea that, yes, mr. dunn will go to jail. we know that. but not for murder. >> right. well, there's no accountability

whatsoever in this trial for jordan davis' life, the young kid who died. and -- i was really upset by the verdict last night. whenever you have a process like this that doesn't work, justice wasn't worked. you have to look at the system. it really raises a consciousness about what it means to be black in america in our justice system. not as a defendant but as a victim. so much of this trial was about jordan davis, whether he was guilty or innocent of a crime and proving he's a good kid, proving he's a good person and trying to play against those stereotypes that dunn advanced. every racial stereotype you could possibly advance about a black teen, dunn used it. thug, gangster, rap music. how do you combat those biases when all the men on the jury look like michael dunn and none of them look like jordan davis? >> lisa, that raises an important question. we were talking yesterday about this question of whether or not angela cory may have -- how do i

say this -- >> overcharged. >> overcharged, thank you. but i guess the question is, if she hasn't gone for first-degree, would we be saying she didn't shoot high enough? given that we're talking about murder. >> no, i don't think so. here's why. first of all, there's a great strategic advantage if she just charged him with second-degree murder. she would have had a jury of six in florida, not 12-of course, it's much easier to get consensus from six people than it is among 12 people. that would have been an advantage. and the burden of proof is lower. look, the burden of proof is always on the state in every case. they have to prove every element beyond a reasonable doubt. first-degree murder requires proof of premeditation. there was a lot of talk in this trial about whether there was premeditation or not. they got hung up on that. take that out of the equation. just charge him with second-degree murder with the lesser included offense of manslaughter, and the prosecutors would have a much easier time next time around. >> i want to play a sound from john guy. i think it does make the point of how the role that race did

play and didn't actually get to play in this case. let's take a listen. >> it's been a long journey. about 450 days, and me and lucy and our supporters have stood strong. i believe we've stood strong in the eyes of not only jacksonville, not only florida, not only the nation, but the world is looking at all of us here in jacksonville. it's not in my nature actually to not lash out and to not say inflammatory statements or whatever. and i have to hold all that in. because i think jordan, my son, and lucy's son, deserve the best representation that he could have gotten as parents. i thank you all for seeing that we as parents were good parents to jordan and he was a good kid.

it wasn't allowed to be said in the courtroom that he was a good kid, but we'll say it. he was a good kid. there's a lot of good kids out there, a lot of good nephews, a lot of good grandsons, granddaughters, nieces. >> you know, obviously that was not the clip we were going to play. that was jordan davis' father. very powerful hoemt in the press conference last night. and you know, faith, this idea that -- i mean, two things. one, that the parents feel like they have to prove they're good parents, right, when they are the victims. their son was murdered. also this idea that they weren't able to introduce the fact that he's a good kid into the trial. that just doesn't make sense to me. >> it doesn't make sense. obviously, it becomes so relevant in a case like this when jordan davis is really put on trial, right. >> and called a thug. >> and a gangster. when this was really -- you know, you don't get any more perfect than this kid. in high school, no criminal record, going to the mall to meet girls with his friends. yet, this entire narrative was

advanced. i'm telling you now, we see this from the zimmerman trial, now this with trial, this perfect defense emerging when you kill a young black kid. all you have to do is say, i was in fear for my life, they were reaching for a gun. never mind that no gun was recovered. then that they said they were going to kill me. or words to that effect. look at what's happening. that seems to be the perfect defense for these trials. people are using that and literally using stand your ground to say, i didn't have to retreat because i was afraid. they're becoming judge, jury, and executioner with these kids in a moment's notice. >> lisa, i've heard you talk about this and i know it's in your book. obviously, race played a role. bias played a role. my goodness, they didn't even talk about some of the letters the state's attorneys office had released. just one quote from one of the letters where he says, quote, i'm not really prejudice against race, but i have no use for certain cultures. this gangster rap ghetto talking

thug culture that certain segments of society flock to is intolerable. now, you have talked about that there was a way that these prosecutors could have responsibly and this judge responsibly could have introduced the concept of racial bias into the conversation in a way that could have given the jurors more of an opportunity to say, you know, maybe we need to see this from a different per spect pif. >> sure. and the most obvious would have been in response to the defense witnesses who said, michael dunn is gentle and peaceful. that's what the jurors heard over and over again from a series of witnesses. at that point, the prosecutor should have leapt to their feet on cross examination, waved the letters around. are you aware he said, for example, the more i get to know those people, referring to african-americans, the more prejudiced i am? the prosecutor should at least have attempted to call his neighbors, who are on videos online on globalgrind.com, saying that he use the "n" word over and over again and his white neighbor from georgia told

him he can't do that in her house anymore. these neighbors also allege a history of violence by michael dunn against a former wife. i don't know if that's true or not, but the jury should have heard all of that to have gotten a more complete picture of michael dunn, and they didn't get that. >> and in terms of just sort of the jury instructions or the way even the prosecutors could have, you know, introduced the concept of racial bias, because i think sometimes, as you've pointed out, there's been such a reluctance in florida, among these prosecutors in particular, to take that issue on. you talk about it in your book. without alienating the jury, still bring them into the reality that we all have racial bias. >> yes, and that's important. because while it's easy to demonize george zimmerman and michael dunn and they should be demonized, the harder question is for us all to take a look in the mirror and say, let's talk about our implicit racial biases we all have. i have some examples in the book of some wonderful judges who

have done that in the courtroom in a very inclusive way. nobody wants to have the finger pointed at them and say, you're a racist. everybody will react and say, no, i'm not. you can say, we live in a culture that's steeped in a number of racial biases, and that can affect our thinking and lead to implicit racial biases in all of us, including me. it's extremely common. i asked you to really think deeply about that and put that aside in a case where there's a white man alleged to have shot into a car with four young african-american kids. switch the races of the two if you have any doubt in your thinking to see, to test yourself whether racial biases are at play here. >> you know, faith, final question to you. to your point, racial bias obviously played a role. but stand your ground and this sort of culture, this vigilanteism. this man thought it was okay to have fired ten rounds and go have pizza and not take any responsibility. when we heard his lawyer say that he was shocked by this verdict, i mean, this tells you it suggests he doesn't think he did anything wrong. >> oh, i don't think he does at

all. so you have a culture where a lot of people have guns and they're readily available and take them everywhere they go. then you have a law that emboldens and empowers people to pull out their weapon. we don't need laws that encourage people to pull out their weapons and shoot people. we need laws that encourage people to take a step back, down to the ten, relax, is this something that i should be doing? when you don't have that, you're allowing people to make a decision at a moment's notice. they know now. look what happened in the movie theater with the popcorn. what is it about someone who thinks that it's okay to pull out a gun and shoot someone in that type of situation? it's because of these laws and the culture that has been created in florida as a result. >> absolutely agree. and we'll keep watching this case as we see kind of what happens next. thanks so much to faith jenkins and lisa bloom. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, i'll speak with the reverend al sharpton for his reaction to the michael dunn trial. later, on a much lyinger note, in search of a friend for senator ted cruz. that's in your sunday forecast. k we both are clean freaks.

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i walk around in this young black male body, and i understand that it causes fear. it causes a reaction. it causes, you know, misto look at me more carefully. it could kill me. >> that was michael smith speaking on the melissa harris-perry show this morning. he's a black man living in america, and for that reason alone, he fears for his life on a regular basis. as you think about the michael dunn case in the coming days and weeks, you might feel tempted to believe justice was served for jordan davis and his family. after all, dunn was convicted on four of five counts and will likely serve the rest of his life in prison. but ask yourself, was the value

of 17-year-old jordan davis' life addressed in last night's verdict? as my next guest put it, the mistrial further sends a chilling effect to parents in the 23 states that have the stand your ground law or similar laws. joining me now is someone who spent his career giving voice to the voiceless, fighting against injustice, fighting for equality. he's been instrumental in keeping dr. king's dream alive and keeping the movement growing. and not only shining a light where it's needed but helping to heal and move the conversation forward. most recently leading a rally to honor trayvon martin attended by some 25,000 people. it's my honor to welcome president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. thank you so much for your time. >> glad to be with you. >> i guess i want to start with your reaction to the verdict. it was pretty shocking. >> it was a very shocking and disappointing verdict because clearly you have a situation

here where a man was cheerily tailoring his testimony to the stand your ground laws and had no real leg to stand on. talking about a gun that no one else not only could find, no one else ever saw or heard him speak about including the girlfriend that was with him. if you couldn't get a conviction here, you have to ask yourself, one, is the stand your ground law the way out for everyone that wants to perform these kinds of deeds? and second, whether or not this prosecutor is inept. this is the second major case in her county she was not able to get murder convictions. so i think you're right. some will say, oh, well, he got convicted, he's likely to go to jail for the rest of his life. the issue here is that we have sent a signal now that you can be killed, and your life will not be addressed. this jury did not address the

life that was lost here. >> and you know, reverend, the thing about that is this is the second time in a very public way it feels like we've had that message sent. what message does that send to young boys and girls? girls have some of the same issues as well in terms of the color of our skin. we know people are going to treat us a little differently. yet, this verdict said, i don't think the jury is even aware of how powerful a message that sends. >> i don't think they are either. and i don't think that we have realized that the law -- the message that should be sent, and it's a very negative message and a chilling message, but the message that we have to bring this to is whereas, yes, this is, in my opinion, something that is very frightening. therefore, what we need to do about it is first take that law out. in 23 states we have this law. in a midterm election, this ought to be part of what

everybody mobilizes around with their state legislators. that we cannot have a law where people can shoot first and ask questions later. that, i guarantee you, was part of the debate in that jury room. it was with zimmerman. i believe it was here. because other than that, you're just dealing with the deeds. but according to what was given in the charge by the judge, he had the right to defend himself if he thought he was under threat. that should not be part of the law. >> that shouldn't be part of the law, but also, i mean, the fact that he acted what i would consider so irresponsibly after the fact. he left the scene of the crime, didn't think to call the police, didn't think to call an ambulance, had pizza, right, and then his girlfriend -- >> then they went home after the hotel. >> then went home. there was an exchange where he was talking about his girlfriend and how she was so anxious. he was like, well, she doesn't understand, you know, these kinds of issues. i mean, that goes to a mindset around stand your ground that says, you know, yeah, it's okay because the law says if i feel

like i was threatened, it's okay for me to do this. >> and when his lawyer says he was shocked he was convicted of anything, which shows you a mind mindset that we're covered with all of this. what's so striking to me is just looking at the jury's verdict. he's guilty of attempted murder, but you can't agree on murder. if he may have had self-defense with murder, why not with attempted murder? is the verdict is inconsistent. either he had saw a gun or he didn't see a gun. if he might have saw a gun with murder, why don't you think he saw a gun with attempted murder? you've got to ask yourself, what was this jury thinking? >> you know, reverend, how do we move the conversation forward? because i feel like, you know, we started to have this conversation around the zimmerman trial. people like you and myself and others, we get called race baiters when we try to have this conversation because the right doesn't want us to have this

conversation. but there's a conversation that needs to be had. i think the president tried to step into it and i think did an eloquent job trying to say, we have to understand that, you know, how we experience the world is different and that we all bring biases to that experience. and we have to be aware of that. and probably you shouldn't have a loaded gun in your hand when you have those. how do we move this conversation forward? >> i think the way we have to move the conversation is to not worry about being called race baiters. those that fought in the '60s were called that. they moved the country forward. if we're going to move it forward, we've got to say, you know what, i'm going to get hit with all kinds of unfair attacks, but we cannot keep burying dead young people and they walk away. one of the things that we've got to raise to all of those on the other side is, how do you explain in the same state that you have zimmerman, now you have this man that was -- >> michael dunn.

>> in many ways, we don't know if he's going to be let go, but right now was not convicted of murder. but at the same time, you have marissa alexander, a black woman in the same state dealing with a husband with a record, a history of violence, domestic violence. he has a warrant against him. she fires a warning shot, doesn't shoot him, and she gets 20 years in jail. if that doesn't show you the contrast of how people are treated differently in the same state, in the same county, with the same prosecutor, if that doesn't start the conversation, it's because some people don't want to be in the conversation. so we've got to force it anyway. >> and out do we -- so one of the things the president is trying to do with his i'm my brother's keeper initiative, you heard attorney general eric holder talking about these issues. they're trying to raise the level of conversation we're having about these issues as

well. >> i think you've got to continue that. i think the president and the attorney general is doing good by doing that because it was just civil rights guys and people like you that are progressive in our government have started a conversation. but there must be a parallel track. that's what we're talking about, national action network, of changing the laws. i want to see the laws change as we have the conversation. even if you have a good conversation, if you have laws like stand your ground, the conversation will not change the situation. >> if anybody can get the laws changed, it's going to be you. >> we'll do the best we can with the help of a lot of people. >> a lot of people behind you. thank you so much for your time today. be sure to tune in tomorrow when the reverend will continue to follow this story at 6:00 p.m. on "politics nation." coming up, democrats go on offense, pushing ahead on minimum wage and immigration. will republicans bow to the pressure ahead of the midterm

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democrats on offense. and governors from around the country invading washington. we begin with senator cruz, who raised hackles in his party again by forcing republicans to take a plit cay tough vote they were none too happy about. turns out his rebellions are having an effect on his social life. >> among his colleagues, they have that senate policy lunch every week, and witnesses have told me he goes in there and he sits alone. people will only sit next to him when there are no other available seats. and you know when you sit alone for lunch, that's not a sign of a lot of support. >> and with republicans focused on containing anymore internal shenanigans before the midterm, democrats are seizing the opportunity to push forward with efforts to push issues like income inequality and immigration reform front and center in this election season. house democrats announced they'll file a discharge

petition in an effort to force a vote on legislation that would raise the minimum wage. increasing the minimum wage has also become a hot issue in the states, and it will likely be on the agenda when the president meets with democratic governors in town for the national governors associations' winter meeting. i'm joined by perry bacon and alahi izati. thanks to you both. i want to start with you, perry. poor, sad, lonely ted cruz. he's really brought this on himself, hasn't he? >> he has. but karen, we should not cry for ted cruz. he's doing exactly what he intended to do. he's come to congress not to make friends but to become kind of a conservative ie dee log. he's going to iowa next month, because he's trying to become president right now and the champion and hero of the tea party voters. i think he's happy to see bob woodward criticizing. he's happy mitch mcconnell doesn't like him. because ted cruz is trying to become the conservative fire

brand who's the anti-establishment hero of the tea party. >> here's the thing. seems like the republicans, certainly those up in 2014, have to kind of survive ted cruz and his rebellions in order to get through their own elections. given that he's looking at 2016, he still has people like mitch mcconnell, who's already having to defend that vote back home on raising the debt ceiling. >> yeah, that's exactly right. and to perry's point, i always like to think of the villains on reality tv shows. that's not why ted cruz came to washington, to make friends. he came to win. and to win for him means, you know, he's positioning himself has this conservative leader and putting his republican colleagues in the senate in tough positions. he came out after the government shutdown saying he wasn't going to get involved in primary fights and challenges though those incumbent republicans, but these groups that he's been aligned with, the senate conservatives fund, for

instance, they're already using the debt limit vote, this procedural vote, against him in his primary challenge by matt bevin. mitch mcconnell essentially wrote a check to president obama, a black check. so even if he says he's in the going to get involved in these primary fights, he is creating circumstances in which these groups can use against the incumbents. >> perry, i want to talk about this discharge position. let's talk about how that would work. obviously, the idea here is democrats are going to try to force a vote on the minimum wage. in essence, my assumption is, knowing they probably won't get the republican votes they need to even get the discharge petition, the point is it's about the fight over who's on your side. that's the rhetoric we've been hearing. and who's fighting for an increase in the minimum wage. we know that issue is already playing very well out in the states. >> exactly, karen. it's hard to see 17 republicans or 18 republicans signing on to

this petition. that doesn't happen very often. that said, look at the polling on the minimum wage. "the washington post" had a poll a couple months ago that showed 50% of republicans prefer increasing the minimum wage. 85% of democrats. you have an issue here where the democrats in 2012 really did a great job of casting mitt romney as a candidate of the wealthy and not the candidate of the middle class. the minimum wage is a great issue for democrats to run on in 2014 in states all over the country. you've seen already in kentucky, a pretty conservative state, allison grimes, a senate candidate there, really pushing this issue hard. it's popular among republican-leaning voters. >> and in terms of -- the other thing we're hearing is that they may also use a discharge petition as a tactic to get through immigration reform or get to immigration reform, i should say. this is another issue where republicans are really in a jam between 2014 and 2016 ambitions. >> that's right. and the discharge petitions

rarely work as procedural maneuve maneuvers. however, i find what's interesting comparing the immigration discharge me tipeti to the minimum wage one. the minimum wage will be used in large part as a political move to show the contrast between republicans and democrats in 2014. now, those who want a discharge petition on immigration reform are hoping that perhaps a few republicans who are on the fence on immigration reform may not sign the discharge petition but then will be pressured into maybe pressuring then their leadership to move immigration reform ahead this year. >> and perry, just finally a question to you. so this week the president's going to meet with democratic governors. i suspect one of the issues that will be on the agenda is the affordable care act and continuing to push that effort in the states to get people to sign up. >> you're seeing this week good news about the health care law.

you saw the sign-ups are really high right now. also, all this website stuff has moved away. the website is working. it's going pretty well. you no longer have -- i don't think it's going to be a positive issue for democrats in 2014, but i think you're seeing it become less of a burden on candidates. that's what democratic candidates are going to be relieved by. >> all right. well, thank you so much. >> thanks, karen. >> thanks. up next, a reporter dares to call bs on rumors of a political comeback for the donald. wait until you see what happened next. play close. good and close. help keep teeth clean and breath fresh. with beneful healthy smile food and snacks. he'll love the crunch of the healthy smile kibbles. you'll love how they help clean. with soft, meaty centers, and teeth cleaning texture,

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on. if you get bad ratings, you're off. there's no doubt about it. and there's something nice about that, clinical. you know, in the world of pot ti -- politics, you don't know what you're getting. >> okay. mitt call reporters are a tough breed. they log thousands of miles crisscrossing across the country. what do they get in return? a font-row seat to politics in action. of course, but also often a complaint or two. then there's the wrath of donald trump. after buzzfeed spent 36 hours with the businessman from new hampshire to palm beach, quote, what i found was a man startled by his suddenly fading relevance and consumed by a desperate need to get it back. ouch. there are countless examples of

classic trump-isms, including when he saw a picture of his wife and baby. wow, i was just looking down saying that's a good looking woman. suffice it to say, he's treated with a healthy dose of skepticism. in a twitter response, the real donald trump characterize the the profile like this. quote, a dishonest slob of a reporter who doesn't understand my sarcasm when talking about him or his wife wrote a foolish and boring trump hit. okay. sounds like a man who wants to be governor of new york or president of the united states, doesn't it? welcome. >> good to be on. >> you know, i have to tell you, it's been so interesting to me watching. i've been on both sides of this. i've been the person pushing back, working with a reporter on a story. they've really gone out of their way to push back on this story and dispute this. >> yeah, i mean, i think this one really struck a nerve. we just heard, actually, that he

fired one of his aides over this story. so obviously it really got to him. i mean, look, i set out to write a kind of probing portrait of this man. what i found was a man who's deeply insecure, worriy eied ab his status in the world and how others treated him and what they thought of him. so it's no surprise to me he's so upset about a profile that treats him skeptically. obviously, he's crossed a few lines in trumpian fashion, dragging my wife into it. i guess that goes inwith thor t story. >> let me read a statement that mr. tump's office said to us. quote, it's a totally dishonest and unfair article written by a politically irrelevant website. from the moment the reporter entered the vehicle to the time he left, his only goal was to write a negative piece. mr. trump is totally unfazed by this article. most people in his situation would have just said, thank you, to mr. trump for his graciousness and hospitality. that's from michael cohen,

senior council, the donald trump. for someone that's been in business and sort of dabbled in politics, i would think he'd have a thicker skin and be a little more used to -- he's unfazed, his staff is freaking out. that's what we're supposed to believe. >> there must have been a change at some point in his career where he became more like this. over the course of researching this story, i spent a lot of time watching old interviews with him, reading old profiles. he wasn't always this thin skinned. over the course of his career, he's become more and more obsessed with his fame and celebrity. and particularly his political celebrity. i think us political reporters know he desperately tries to get our attention all the time in a way that seems almost, you know, unpleasant and small for him. sending e-mails to political reporters and trekking up to manchester to try to get cable news attention. but it's obviously something he cares very much about. >> what is driving this talk about politics? from the piece it sounds like

you don't think he's seriously going to run for president again. then there's this talk about running for governor. in the piece, he says, i didn't start the governor thing. i was approached six weeks ago by the biggest leaders in the republican party, and i said, let me think about it. they approached me again and again and again. so from the piece it strikes me you don't think he's going to be running for governor. >> i will eat my words if he runs for governor. i'm not putting money on it. although, to be honest, the only thing he has to do to refute this whole story is to run for governor or president. but i don't think so. i think even in the case of the gubernatorial bid, his claim is that a bunch of republicans came and approached him. but we've also seen reporting that it was actually one of his own aides who was seeding the rumors in the first place. >> is it that he's just, you know, sort of gone as far as he can in the world of business and that's why there's this fascination with the world of politics? >> i actually asked him about that. i said, you know, is this just that you're done with real

estate and reality tv, that you're bored of it and searching for stimulation? his response to me was, who knows what's in the deepest part of my mind. that could be true. >> okay. we're going to leave it there and let people ponder that. mccay coppins. really fascinating piece. great job. as my former boss used to say, better decisions get made when women are at the table. up next, we'll break down a new report that shows we have still got a long way to go. at any minute you could be a victim of fraud. fraud could mean lower credit scores and higher interest rates when you apply for a credit card. it's a problem waiting to happen. check your credit score, check your credit report at experian.com.

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what if i told you that every time a voes wagon hits 100,000 mile, a german engineer gets his wings? ♪ >> remember that volkswagen ad from the super bowl? did you notice the man says an engineer gets his wings?

and how about those engineers? both white guys. whether you realize it or not, ads like this one send a direct message to young girls and boys about what they can do when they grow up. according to volkswagen, if you're a girl, that apparently does not include being an engineer. it's not just advertising. from movies to tv and even the news, the way women are portrayed, the language used, and the aimages used re-enforce stereotypes about gender roles and puts limits on futures girls can imagine for themselves. it also impacts the way men think about the role of women. this week, the women's media center will release its report on the status of women in the u.s. media, a snapshot of where we are in 2014 and how far we have to go. if this new "sports illustrated" cover is any indication, we have a lot of work cut out for us. here with us, gloria felt. i will be participating in the take the lead challenge launch

event this week on wednesday in arizona. thanks so much for being here. i appreciate it. >> thank you, karen. >> i want to start with portrayals of women in pop culture. there was a study cited in the wmc report. in the top 500 movies from 2007 to 2012, we literally do not see as many women as we do men. 30.8% speaking characters are women. 10.7% have balanced casts of male and female characters. when women are on screen, we're generally the -- a sexual object or we are the love interest. that seems to be the role we're generally relegated to. >> yeah, the supporting characters. exactly. in fact, it's even worse in family films. when we don't see women in leadership roles, for example, in family films, except, oh, maybe 5% of the time. this is why young girls grow up thinking they might not want to be engineers or they might not want to be president or they might not want to be a

television host. >> but does it also mean -- we talk a lot about how it impacts women, but it impacts men and boys. they see those images. i look at some of the things in pop culture and think, that's where they maybe learn some of that language is appropriate. >> absolutely. the media forms us at the same time that it informs us. i think we forget that at our own peril. frankly, that's why it was so important to me to have a discussion of the impact of media on women's leadership in a program that's really designed to challenge women and men and companies and everyone and policymakers to help women get to their fair and equal share of leadership roles. >> i want to take another look at women as leaders because it's not just entertainment. we know that politics and the news send a very powerful message about what are acceptable rules for women. we've long talked about the sunday talk shows and how important that can be as a way for women to be seen as, you

know, authentic sources of information, as leaders in a particular area. as the report points out, we're not seeing -- we've got an little better, but we're still not seeing women on those shows in those leadership roles. >> you're right, it has gotten better. i remember the first time i started looking into it. it was 16%. well, now we're up to about 25%. so that's certainly better. but when you look at who are the faces you see most often of the political pundits who are defining what the issues are, defining the narratives, that is really still almost always male. >> i have to give a plug to our network. i do love the fact we have more women talking about a broader range of issues. that's the other thing. a lot of times you'll see women on to talk about so-called women's issues and not sort of a broader range of foreign policy or domestic policy as well. >> yes, exactly. normally when you see women in any kind of program, you'll see them doing the things that are

relegated to women's work. if you look at commercials, for example, it's always the women who are mopping, right? i don't know about you, but i haven't been mopping very much for quite a long time. so it does not reflect the reality of my life in any way shape or form. but that's still what young girls see. that's what young boys see. therefore, that's what they think about women in leadership. >> so let's talk about take the lead. the challenge and sort of the goal. one of the things you talk about sequel pay. that's obviously become an issue that a lot of people are talking about, both as a political issue, frankly, given we're seeing more participation by women as a political force. do you think that's going to be a key issue in the 2014 elections? >> i certainly hope it will be. and it should be for a lot of different reasons. first of all, women are now the primary breadwinners in almost 40% of families. women are equal breadwinners or important breadwinners in the majority of families now.

so again, it impacts men as well as women. and, you know, money and power tend to go together. so when women are still earning 77 cents to a man's dollar, women don't have the political power. but let me say this. women, however, have the power of the purse. we need to use it. we buy 85% of the consumer goods and products that are sold. so therefore, if we would be massing our strength, and that's one of the things that we teach people in our take the lead learning programs. it's about how to use the power we actually already have. and that is one of them. >> so we have the power of the purse and political power. >> political power. we vote. we're 54% of the voters. we're 57% of the college degrees. we have a lot of potential power, but power unused is power useless. that's our message. we got to do it for ourselves. >> how do we do that? how do we get women to use our power? >> the first thing we need to do is to understand the dynamics of power. i think that many of the women's

leadership programs could do more. that's what take the lead will specialize in. literally, delving into women's own relationship with power. because when we break gender stereotypes, we are often subject to being treated badly. so you got to deal with that. we've got to learn how to be sisters. i call this sister courage. i help you, you help me. >> and we have to not be afraid of power, ladies. come on. we can all share. there's plenty to go around. all right. well, thank you so much, gloria. i look forward to seeing you later this week. you can follow take the lead on twitter @takeleadwomen. don't forget to tune into the launch event this wednesday. there's also more information at their website at taketheleadwomen.com. that does it for me. thanks so much for joining us. please don't forget to share your thoughts. you can find us on facebook and tweet us @msnbcdisrupt. i'll see you back here next weekend at 4:00 p.m. eastern. until then, have a great week.

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