keep the shoes would i want the hubber board. >> a romantic tube from my apartment to my office. >> you mean like from the old bank tellers. >> those. those have gone by the wayside. it would be nice. >> and jenna had a good one, joan jettson's instant hair and makeup. >> joan jettson had a fabulous look. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ i'm free free falling >> i'm not going to pass judgment on this. all i'll say it's an interesting video. a father in iowa picking his kids up from school, it has been cold in iowa this week and a patch of ice on the sidewalk, so this guy did what any responsible parent would do. . he remained seated in his car and shot video of it for a while. and the kids came by, one by one, even -- even when they knew

it was there, they -- they would fall. and he just kept taping the thing. which -- what's the opposite of a good samaritan? i guess this is? there we go. oh, myp . >> are we bad people? >> you're not kind of bad people. you're sick people is what you are. but i can relate. >> good morning, everyone. it is wednesday. hump day. february 19th. welcome to "morning joe." oh, mike barncle, msnbc contributor mike barncle is here. >> mika. >> how are you? how's your back, honey. >> it hurts. >> you did a lot of shoveling. >> i did. >> the snow is heavy and you can get a heart attack. you should have been more careful. >> i'm going to be. no more shoveling.

>> no more. >> bill karins said the sun will come out and feel like hawaii. >> he's a fool. >> a total freak. >> we also have former -- former -- still an msnbc political analyst, last time i checked. >> i am. >> are you getting fired or anything like that? >> not that i know of. >> we'll see how it goes this three hours, former chairman of the republican national committee michael steele, msnbc political analyst and visiting professor at nyu, former democratic congressman harold ford jr. whose wife's bathing suit is on the front page of the "sports illustrated" swimsuit edition, it's the middle one. >> it looks good, doesn't it. >> harold. >> what's that? >> there's no bathing suit there, harold. >> it's a bathing suit my wife's company makes. >> can you tell your wife i don't see a bathing suit. just see a lot of skin and a patch of material in a place tucked away. >> i'm not going to look as closely as you did. i understand the young lady in

the middle is wearing a bathing suit. >> that's all that matters. >> good morning. >> just saying. >> you're working on getting fired. >> right. >> and in washington, former white house press secretary an msnbc contributor robert gibbs. hello, gibby. >> good morning. how are you? >> i'm good. and msnbc political analyst ezra klein. hello, anything going on with you? >> not too much. >> oh, nothing. >> all right. so let's get right to the news unless you all want to continue to talk about the patch of material that harold's wife's company made. anybody? >> we could do that. >> seriously. >> it's a small business. you cover small businesses on this program. >> we're talking small patches of material like seriously this could be like a sam. that was sent to me for my couch, two by two. >> my wife's business partner and two young ladies started this company a few years old. this is like, you know, getting a big speech at a convention or

in the political business or being nominated in a party, to make the magazine, to make this magazine is a wonderful thing. others in the magazine but it's a big win for them and the economy. congratulate my wife. >> congratulations. i just can't see it. that's all. >> no top to the bathing suit? >> i don't see a bathing suit. >> i'm not that close to the -- how they do these things but this is great. >> okay. i'm going to talk to you in the break about -- i'll talk to you later. the news, because joe will want to hear about this. a democratic plan to raise the minimum wage is under fire today after new reports by the congressional budget office, the proposal is to increase the federal minimum wage by about a dollar every year until it reaches $10.10. i think that's a great idea, joe, don't you? wages would be adjusted on a yearly basis. he's working hard on not interrupting me which is good because he'll like the point of this story. the min mum wage is $7.25

significantly lower than the minimum in 1968 which was $10.60 adjusted for inflation. the big headline from yesterday's nonpartisan report is that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers. >> right. >> however, however, the next line in the report, states actual losses could be smaller or larger. ranging from a slight reduction to 1 million workers. >> i don't see that in this report. i don't -- oh. >> it's at the end. >> near the end. >> i thought it was in the middle. >> that was gibby. >> seriously. what are you doing putting this in front of the sghis why are you doing this? >> because harold's company -- >> my wife's company. >> harold's wife's company made

that little patch of material. >> let's see. wait. >> let me get the pen. >> this patch right here. >> it's like a 2 by 2. >> called basta surf. >> looks like a sample sent to me for material. >> oh, that right there. >> yes. >> you showed that. yeah. >> that's it. isn't that nice? >> the overhead must be pretty high in that company. >> so what does that cost? the basta surf. >> you've noticed this, circled it and i appreciate it. i don't know. i want to be clear it was your work which i'm appreciative of. my wife -- look this is a big deal for people in this business. i'm happy for my wife. >> it's a big deal for us. >> absolutely. >> we appreciate your wife's effortses. >> thank you, michael. thank you. give her my congrats. >> i just -- >> many times over. >> i can't stand it. >> oh. >> i'm jealous. i just can't stand it. i'm sorry. >> nor can i. >> it drives me crazy.

>> all perfect an -- it's what makes me like have problems. so i'm not going to do that anymore. i look great. okay. >> you do. >> you're awesome. you look awesome. as long as your mother is not -- >> my mother e-mailed me -- >> it's breaking out all over. what's going on. >> joe. >> flying girl. what's going on here? >> the winter doldrumses. >> all right. >> this one. >> minimum wage. >> make me nervous. okay. the report also states that 16.5 million workers could see their wages increase to the tune of $31 billion. but that's just 19 percent of what would go to families who actually live below the poverty line. michael steele here's the problem. you look at the cbo report, up to 1 million people could lose their jobs. >> right. >> according to the cbo. that's the high end. up to a million people could lose their jobs if the -- if the

minimum wage goes up to 10 bucks but it's offset by maybe half a million people getting better wages. but the cbo says is, that doesn't all go to people who live below the poverty line. >> right. >> that goes to, you know, a lot of people who, you know, have teenagers working. >> that's right. >> transitional work. >> it's a balancing act and all these people that say there's not a study out there that says raising, you know, minimum wage costs jobs, no, it could cost up to a million jobs here. >> the thing about this that i -- the minimum wage has always kind of scratched my head on, businesses bake this into what they do. >> right. >> so, you know, if they get the sense -- this is why businesses like to plan. they like to see if the congress is talking about the minimum wage they begin to bake this into how they hire, fire, rearrange their work force.

this draconian result -- >> how much will they charge for hamburgers, how much they're going to charge for all of their items, their goods. charles krauthammer, i thought, harold, put it pretty well yesterday, when he said this isn't really a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor. . this is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the poor because if you have 500,000 to a million people losing their jobs and going deeper into poverty, yes, there will be some winners. >> right. >> but make no mistake, there's no free lunch. this is the maddening thing about this argument. there is no free lunch. people will pay. and a lot of it is going to come from other poor people. >> i think raising the minimum wage can't be the only thing you do. you've got to obviously have other visionary policies that lift people out of poverty. but i will tell you, that making $7.25 an hour is not a wage.

let's not pretend it is and let's not pretend we're helping people by not raising the minimum wage because of this report. >> okay. but -- but let's not pretend though -- let's not pretend also, mika, there's such thing as a free lunch. people will pay when you go from paying a certain amount to $10 an hour, people are going to pay. it's not going to be people like me or you or anybody at this table and it's not going to even be ceos. >> right. >> you're talking about social justice, what the cbo is talking about here, and charles krauthamm krauthammer, it's going to be other poor people that will be paying as well if you do this hike. listen, it needs to be adjusted for inflation. it hasn't for long time. >> thank you. that's what i wanted to hear from you. >> but when we are in an -- a time of crisis we're still in, and this jobless recovery, i don't think it's time to jump it three bucks not because it's going to hurt me or rich buddies, but because it's going to hurt other working poor people. >> two points.

one, every time we talk about raising the minimum wage these kind of studies come out saying we're going to lose jobs and have a depressing effect on wages. the last two times we've done it that has not been the case. joe, you raised the second point. if you just index to inflation the minimum wage we would have raised the minimum wage to over $10. perhaps we could do it at a slower pace. if we're going to raise the minimum wage it should be culed with some kind of tax breaks and incentives for small businesses and restauranteurs who have done what michael said eloquently, baked this in. to mika's point we are subsid e subsidizing people earning the minimum wage with other things. if -- we need to have a big conversation in this country about what's fair and what can be afforded by the business community and how government can be helpful. we pay huge amounts of unemployment benefits. i would love to take some of those unemployment benefits and provide tax breaks to small businesses in this country who, to your point, middle-class

people paying the minimum wage and this to workers to give them that break and incentive to do that. >> ezra, let me bring you in really quickly, ezra, and be have you talk about what the cbo actually touched on and that is, just how predictable this is. range maybe from 100,000 lost jobs to a million lost jobs or split the baby in half and said 500,000 lost jobs. we don't know because the economy is dynamic. it may be we gain jobs, maybe we lose 1.5 million, nobody knows. >> one of the difficult things about getting into this minimum wage conversation there's so much economic research on it and recent research is saying smaller if any at all, the cbo has a range from so small you can't see it to a million jobs. there's a headline number in this report that is getting m t mostly missed which is $2

billion. after you account for anything, any jobs, the income gains you have, you have a net real income gain to workers of $2 billion. the net result here is positive. you make the point there's a die mention of the min mum wage that is a transfer to low wage workers but there have been other policies on the table that would have been the transfer from high income, rich workers, ceos down to low-income workers we've talked about, the american jobs act, somebody could say let's jump up the earned income tax credit and pay with it with tax increases, and that's been killed by republicans in congress too. at some point we need to pick and do something for the folks struggling in the economy. the minimum wage people, it doesn't have as cost to the deficit but has the other tradeoff effect on the margin some kind of disemployment. >> we talk about income disparity, the rich richer and the poor poorer. what would be the one item you would like passed into law that you think would do more, not solve the problem, but do more,

to lessen the divide between the richest americans an and poorest americans. >> at the moment i would go back a couple years, and put in the american jobs actp. the biggest problem right now is simple joblessness. that going forward as these people begin to leave the labor force, skills deteriorate, relationships deteriorate in the work force they become a permanent class of the under employ employed. that's an inequality you can't fix. if i have to do one thing now what i would say we have a very important long-term inequality problem. the thing we should be doing right now this second is to fix the jobs crisis as best we can and we know how to do that, good legislation to do that and that's something we can do where the people paying for it are the folkses that could afford to pay for it as opposed to the folks that would have more trouble. >> robert gibbs, we are going to see a couple days i would assume of cat fights between various economists you got the cbo, larry katz, a respected economist from harvard said the

cbo's numbers are skewed because they didn't rely on up-to-date data, whatever. >> right. >> i have difficulty absorbing the argument made by some that a raise in the minimum wage is a transfer of wealth. i have never thought of raising the minimum wage as a transfer of wealth from wealthy ceos or billionaires done to people who -- down to people making $7.25 an hour hoping to get them up over a period of years to $10.10 an hour. your thoughts, sir? >> i agree with a lot of what ezra said. we have to look at income disparity and joblessness not just as one policy but as a number of different policies, particularly tax policies. but i'm struck as joe said, there is no free lunch. i think this proposal would raise wages for 16.5 million people and help them afford a little better lunch or help them afford the lunch they're paying for now. i think that if you look at -- >> the cost to others, robert.

>> well, again, there's -- you mentioned there's tradeoffs but the tradeoff of pulling people out of poverty, the tradeoff of raising people's wages, the stock market went up 33% last year. >> right. >> people's wages went down last year even as corporations did well, even as businesses did well, people watched their wages either stagnate or they lost real wages when you factor in inflation. >> yep. >> we're not going to prosper as a society if the people that work in businesses can't afford to purchase the things that they make in those businesses. >> and robert, i agree with you. we've been saying on this show for a long time, the real wages for american workers have been on the decline since 1973. generational problem. the rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting popoor ge but as we look for solutions as far as i'm concerned, if you just say people will be able to

afford a better lunch if we raise the min mum wage, that takes too account that perhaps up to a million people will lose their jobs and fall deeper into poverty. that's the tradeoff i'm talking about. i really don't give a dam about corporations that are making money on wall street. i don't care if they lose money. i mean i don't care if they lose a little money on the margins because they have to pay their workers 10 bucks an hour instead of 7 bucks an hour. i am concerned about the working poor who are struggling right now and small business owners, restauranteurs and these type of people, the negative impact that might have. that's the biggest -- >> the question is, what is the solution? if we're not willing to absorb that point into this discussion, weight the reality for the working poor at this point ? if you're saying we raise the minimum wage to $10 an hour, $11

an hour, how do we begin to find the right balance? >> first we have to -- we've got to pick a number that's not going to cause serious problems to the economy right now. struggling economy with a jobless recovery. find that point that both sides can agree on and index it to inflation. so -- >> start from there. >> so it doesn't remain stagnant at 7 bucks an hour when, you know, inflation goes up. secondly, we just -- i mean you and i don't believe, at least, that the solutions come from having the federal government in a lot of cases artificially saying. >> set the price. >> you're going to do this, that. i'm not saying that we just go back to sort of a, you know, pre-tr approach, but the big issue, the generational challenge is not going to be solved this way. listen, we got to move on quickly here, mika, because, boy, internationally. >> yeah. >> what's happening in syria,

you've got the iran peace talks breaking down, negotiations breaking down, and then in ukraine, it's just absolutely exploded. those three country, what do they have in common, every one protected by the man who's having a coming out party this week in russia, they are all putin's basically protectors. >> let's go to ukraine at least, where there's been massive developments overnight. eu foreign ministers are set to hold an emergency meeting as violence rages on in ukraine. images of thousands of protesters advancing on riot police, hurling molotov cocktails and setting massive fires have captivated the world. nbc news chief correspondent richard engel reports. >> reporter: it has all the signs of a revolution, and it's taking place in kiev's independence square. anti-government demonstrators

barricaded themselves in, setting bon fires, throwing stones and lobbing molotov cocktails and even fireworks to keep riot police from driving them out. they dared the riot police to kill them, to kill their own countrymen. violence began hours earlier when radical protesters tried to march on parliament. but riot police drove them back with rubber bullets, stun grenades and protesters say live ammunition. the protesters had weapons of their own, including the government said, guns. police officers were reportedly shot dead. government forces tried to shut down kiev, stopping subway traffic to keep new protesters from the square and issuing a chilling ultimatum to clear out or the state would use all legal means to restore order. but the protesters made a stand

in independence square and now there's talk of revolution, even civil war, with international implications reminiscent of the cold war. the ukrainian government is backed by moscow. the protesters want closer ties with europe and the united states. moscow directly accused washington of playing puppet eyre, manipulating the protesters. russia thinks washington is behind the uprising to make russia lose a key ally that was once part of the soviet union. violence the worst since these clashes began three months ago, could be the start of a new future for ukraine. >> let's -- >> it's coming out -- >> it's incredible. constant, coming in for hours. bring in nbc news forp correspondent ayman mohyeldin. obviously there are reports of opposition will meet with the president today. what could come out of that? we know vice president biden reached out to the leader of ukraine, what are the

implications here, especially pertaining to russia? as you speak we're going to take a look at more live pictures coming into us as the protesters continue. >> right now the situation on the ground as you mentioned remains very tense and there's no doubt there's an attempt, at least from the diplomatic community, to try to resolve this peacefully. we're getting some sense of what the europeans might be doing in the coming hours. they're holding emergency talks in brussels on thursday. they plan according to some european sources to sanction or punish some of the individualses that are being held responsible for those killings, particularly those from the ukrainian government. there's no doubt that all sides are calling for restraint from violence, but really this has reached beyond a political crisis for the ukrainian government. i don't see right now a situation whereby the protesters are going to accept president yanukovych to remain in power, but at the same time the president is framing this as a security crisis, as a what oren terrorism, and that -- war on

terrorism, and threatening the stability of the entire country. he does have his supporters from the government in the eastern part of the country closer to russia. >> all right. ayman mohyeldin, thank you so much. keep us posted. we're going to be watching these live pictures as they come in today and watching for the emergency meeg meeting as well. >> very good. >> i would love to talk to ezra and robert as we move forward on this issue. it's just not a lot of great options for the president right now. >> nope. >> coming up on "morning joe," senator john thune of south dakota, david axelrod, gene sperling and later, actor and comedian wayne brady. up next, the top stories in the politico playbook. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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talk about that on the air? >> no, i don't actually. >> i dare you. >> no, i don't. >> come on. >> awful time. >> just the visual imagery is wonderful. >> like george costanza. >> you were george costanza. >> i was. >> you are. you really were. tell everyone. >> maybe later. >> from "the washington post" from our parade of papers n a few hours the man leading thousands of anti-government protesters in venezuela will be appearing in court. >> leopoldo lopez turned himself in to the national guard after a massive rally. lopez says he's willing to spend years in prison if it leads venezuela changing its socialist policies. venezuela's government is blaming lopez for at least four deaths during the protests. he is facing terrorism and murder charges. and from "the boston globe" president obama using his

executive power to make big trucks more fuel efficient and cut gown on greenhouse gases. the president asking his administration to develop standards that are new by march of '16. heavy duty trucks account for about 20% of the carbon pollution from the transportation industry and, you know, that's when we have boon pickens on. >> yes. >> talks about moving to natural gas and fitting them that way because of all the greenhouse gases that would be eliminated by that. president obama didn't specify how much the standards would actually cut emissions but this certainly, talking about 20% of greenhouse gases this is a great place to start. >> the portland press herald said the country's first smart guns hit shelves in california and it could change the future of gun control. the armattics pistol comes with a watch that can control who can fire the gun. the gun will only fire if the watch is close by. the pistol will run you about $1400 plus about $400 for the

watch. >> the thing is there are a lot of people, think about it, a lot of people that may not want to have guns in their house. >> right. >> if they have children in their house. >> right. >> and i don't know, this -- >> maybe that changes? >> yeah. might change it. >> might. "the wall street journal" the price tag for target's massive data breach continues to rise. financial institutions say costs from the data theft now exceed $200 million. that includes replacing credit or debit cards for nearly 22 million customers. this number does not include fraudulent activity, hackers stole the information of nearly 0 million shoppers -- 70 million shoppers. mike barncle, pay attention, staple of your diet, hot pockets, are being pulled from the shelves amid a link to a human beef recall. nestle recalling 238,000 cases of both your favorite philly cheesesteak and cheese and croissant crust philly cheese and steak hot pockets.

>> who would buy these and eat them. >> mike barneycle accounts about 150,000 of the 238,000. >> it's not food, people. >> he's got a freezer in his upper west side like co-op. >> it's not food. this is not food. >> it's better than food. >> it's not. >> they're hot pockets. >> they are. >> ain't that america? >> no, actually. >> john cougar mellencamp wrote a song called hot pockets. the company said it used a small amount of meat from rancho feeding corporation fields and customers are advised not to eat the products and return to it for a refund. can we get a shot over at the main table right now? >> no. >> guys quickly. >> seriously. >> see what they're doing over there. they're not paying attention to what they should be paying attention to, mika. we're talking about the newspapers, this is the most important part of the show i think for the kids at home who wake up and say i want to know what's going on outside of my neighborhood, right? >> yeah. >> what are these pervs doing,

merv the pers next to lester the molester. >> that's funny. a new bill in kansas will allow parents and teachers to spank children hard enough to leave redness and bruising. representative gail finney says the bill protects parents from being charged with child abuse. it defines corporal punishment as hitting a child ten times on the buttocks with one's palm and using reasonable force to restrain the child. the current law allows spanking as long as it doesn't leave any marks. >> you ever spank your kids growing up? >> maybe once or twice but i never felt good about it. >> you're not supposed to feel good about it. if you felt good about it it would be a problem. >> your parents ever spank you? >> oh, god yes. with a hair brush on the side of the road. >> my dad one motion, belt. >> really? >> pow. >> side of the road. humiliation was part of it. >> it wasn't humiliation. it was sheer corporal

punishment. it was if effective. >> yeah. >> it was effective. >> yeah. i don't know. >> i spanked joey one time. >> i think it's changed you for good. >> it has. it has. no. i did it once. >> tell everybody what happened the other day. >> no. >> come on. >> i spanked joey one time. other than that i think that's about it. >> okay. like 6'4" you can look down and glare at him. >> "the washington post," share the story. >> i'm not telling. >> the chinese military is outgrowing its tanks literally. a report published in the country's official army newspaper say soldiers have become too tall and fat for their equipment. some armored vehicles were designed 30 years ago when the average troop was five centimeters thinner and two centimeters shorter. rifles are too small for their longer arms. >> you came up with a book idea yesterday. >> yeah. >> what were you going to call it? >> i really -- you know what, as soon as you share what happened inside your apartment during the show -- >> what are you talking about?

>> i'll share my book. because i am doing a new book. go ahead, george. come on. >> no. >> it's really funny. >> tell them what -- >> later. >> tell them your new book. >> coming up, it may be the most anticipated event of the winter games. >> awkward. >> willie. >> willie. >> what? >> willie wants to know. we'll talk to willie in a second. i need a jacket like that, willie. willie will preview women's figure skating live from sochi. i miss willie. >> i need two for my daughters as well. >> stop it. >> "morning joe" sports is next. there's this kid. coach calls her a team player. she's kind of special. she makes the whole team better. he's the kind of player that puts the puck, horsehide, bullet. right where it needs to be. coach calls it logistics. he's a great passer. dependable. a winning team has to have one.

somebody you can count on. somebody like my dad. this is my dad. somebody like my mom. my grandfather. i'm very pround of him. her. them.

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welcome back, everybody. want to take you to sochi and that's a beautiful shot. we see the olympic torch. bad fog over the last couple days, some actual winter weather near the coastal cluster. joining us is presideman you ar looking for willie geist, sporting a gorgeous navy blue official olympic jacket? >> it's the michelin man. >> this -- you can only wear this jacket if you're on the olympic team or if you go to that store right there and pay a ridiculous amount of money and buy one. >> willie, i need a medium and two smalls. >> it's very exclusive.

>> women's medium and two smalls. >> thanks. >> they run a little small. >> three mediums. >> the silver jacket only goes to medalists. if you're walking around and won a medal you get a silver jacket or go to that store and buy one for several hundred dollars. >> very exclusive group. >> everyone around here i'm the only serious journalist, everyone is looking at "sports illustrated" so we need to talk about sports. their heads are buried. >> i would put that up while i'm talking, me producing from here. go ahead. >> there we go. >> we have news here from sochi, ted ligety, the great american skier moments ago, winning gold in the giant slalom. 29 years old. there it is, that's smart, good producing, 29 years old from park city. what you do, two runs, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, and combine the two times. ligety was so good in the morning he beat his nearest competitor by nearly a full second which in downhill time is a ton. all he had to do on the second run was keep it between the

lines. he did that. he will win a gold medal. he won one in torino eight years ago but not in vancouver. tonight a big night, most people look forward to it at the winter olympics. women's figure skating, the short program gets under way. the usa has really good skaters, ashley wagner, the two-time national champion, but then you have gracie gold who kind of surprised ashley wagner at the national championships and won that. looking at both of them. and a 15-year-old named polina edmunds who say some could be a bit of a spoiler the truth is the story here is yuna kim, the south korean skater dominant over the last several years. won the gold medal in vancouver in 2010, heavy favorite to do it again here. a huge celebrity not just in korea but all of asia. she's got endorsement deals. she is the star of these olympics and will be performing tonight. you have coming back the returning silver medalest from

japan and then yulia lipnitskaya, the 15-year-old russian who surprised everybody in the team skate they had last week. she's the one who is sort of bending her leg up past her head doing things we've never seen before on skates. she could be a spoiler. team usa men's hockey gets into elimination games. should be interesting. playing the czech republic in the quarterfinals. if they can get past the czech republic they could meet canada in the semifinal on friday. a lot going on here. >> if anybody has a great branding name, post-olympics in america anyway, gracie gold. >> yeah. >> and she's 18. she's got it for as long as she wants to have it. >> if you have time, a controversial on the women's bobsled side. lolo jones was put on the bobsled teams. she's on essentially there are three teams of two. on the third team. they finished 11th yesterday after two heats. they get another chance today. but this opened the door to some criticism in public that's been simmering kind of privately and

leaked out a little bit in the papers from some bobsledders who didn't make the team who feel like they should have been there and that lolo jones is only there for marketing reasons because she's famous to bring attention to bobsled. a u.s. men's bobsledder named chuck berkeley, not here in sochi said it last night, absolutely no doubt katie ebber ling is one of the athletes who thinks she should have been here instead of lolo. #merit #olympics2014. people going out in public saying they're not happy that lolo is here in sochi. >> different if her ranking was different coming in 11th on that team. >> another shot tonight. we'll see. >> thanks, willie. don't forget about mika's clothes. >> three mediums. >> i want to hear more about the book when i get back next week. >> and what happened to the -- >> the book, you're not going to believe the title of mika's next book. it's shocking.

>> and joe's apartment what happened. >> it is shocking. >> why he was late. >> what happened? >> he was late for work the other day and he has a story about why. >> oh, i can't wait to get home for both of those things. >> all right. i am the george costanza of our time. >> you are george. >> thank you. we can't wait for you to get back. >> see you on monday. >> looking forward to it. coming up politico's mike allen with us plus the must-read opinion pages. don't go away. we'll be back with more "morning joe." so ally bank has a raise your rate cd

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playbook. mike, i guess good morning. >> good morning, mika. >> senator rand paul says there needs to be a republican revolution to save the party. how does senator paul plan to do that? >> well, mika, this is really interesting. this is senator paul rebranding himself, wanting him to stand apart from his dad and set himself up for a presidential run in 2016 during this senate break on this holiday week he's been traveling down in texas. politico traveled with him and he said that republicans feed a messenger who can actually win. he talked about the reagan example of pulling in working class democrats, the bill clinton example of pulling the party toward the center. he says republicans need that too. we've put up the same type of republican candidate, we won't win. the examples of his issues that could pull in new voters are his push to reform the drug laws, which could work with minority communities, younger voters, and

his opposition to indefinite detention he said will work with any sort of group that overt history has been persecuted. rand paul trying to be more than the end of fed guy. >> what's the response been from party types? >> what they say is that rand paul will ultimately have a problem because of his foreign policy. you've talked about this over the years, that that's ultimately not going to sell, but they aren't in any position to turn down somebody who's talking about ways to enlarge the party. that's a theme we're going to hear as we look toward 2016. these candidates will talk about how they can make the pie bigger because if the pie stays the same republicans lose again and again. >> all right. mike allen, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you, mike. >> greatly appreciate it. >> to the must-read opinion pages from "the washington post," dana mill bank writes this, obama can help democrats all the way to the bank if obama is a toxic wingman for

democratic candidates they desperately need help -- need his help fund-raising and they are grumbling he hadn't been willing enough to assist them. even a popular president remains a luge draw among party donors. there's probably nothing obama could do in the midterm elections to match the conservative billionaire's advantage but at least giving it a try might prove more productive than his combination of foreign jaunts and unremarkable domestic speeches. at an electric equipment maker in north carolina, a gas engine plant in wisconsin, a costco and steel mills in pennsylvania and ohio. >> to robert gibbs, robert, first of all, there are liberal billionaires who are talking about spending $100 million so i think it may be the battle of the billionaires. but i thought the president, from reading recent articles about him, i thought the president was doing his job for democratic candidates, going around from one mansion to

another, and not liking it, but doing it, like leaders of parties have to do. is he going to step that up moving forward? is he on the right pace? >> well, look, my hunch is that they will likely have to step up the efforts particularly in saving the u.s. senate in making sure from his perspective that they don't lose the majority in the upcoming 2014 election. obviously lots of democrats up in some tough territory in states that the president hasn't particularly done well in and i think look, it's never a bad thing to have the leader of the party out doing more events, raising money for whether it's the senate campaign committees or the national committee, in an effort to put everybody in a strong position come election day. >> ezra, how does a big money fight shaping up? again we had the story yesterday

about a progressive hedge fund guy putting in, trying to put in $100 million, you have the koch brothers and a lot of organizations on the right battling each other and the irs decision that may be coming down where 501 c 4s will be altered. are we going to be spending the first six months talking about campaign finance and exactly, you know, how we keep huge money out of these races? >> well, we'll need to be talking about something because we're going to want to talk about the 2014 election before we know anything about it. we probably will do that. in terms of how it's shaping up this is a mid term election, a highly favorable playing ground in the senate and house republican party. you tend to see money move towards where they think the win will be. not just talking about ideological billionaires like the kochs, you want to back a winner. that tends to help out which

ever party appears to have an advantage. i think sometimes people get a little too into the money race. the two parties need to have enough money to compete, right. you need to have enough money to get your message out there. if they both hit that sufficiency level then it becomes about other things, it becomes about the economy, the messaging, the quality of candidates. so at the moment i think they're both traveling at a pace that should get them to sufficiency but, obviously, something could go wrong along the way. >> isn't it, robert, that's great way to put it, isn't it. you need enough money to run, whatever that is in 2014, but at some point, there's a law of diminishing returns. >> no doubt. >> we've seen the multimillionaire spending $50 million in california statewide races and getting 12%. >> no doubt. and i think ezra is right. you have to have a certain level of campaign spending so that if you're outspent, you know, five to four, it's not being outspent two to one. there is a structural advantage in that. i will say, what is unique about

the last few election cycles is, by having billionaires on either side come into the electorate, be able to spend unregulated amounts of money of, you know, quite frankly unregulated size, has changed in many ways the dynamics. it really isn't state and national parties anymore. a lot of these elections are being determined by outside money that's not going through the party apparatus. >> yeah. >> robert gibbs and ezra klein, thank you both very much. >> thanks, guys. >> thank you. >> coming up, the president's top economic adviser, gene's here. >> he is here. >> gene sperling joins the conversation. >> scares the had hell out of everybody. just reading that is intimidating people. >> he threatened me earlier. >> did he really? >> just with a look. >> yep. >> with a graph. >> yep. >> okay. "morning joe" back in a moment. honestly? this deal was way too good to believe.

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is just can't hold -- >> that's a cigarette commercial -- >> stomach in anymore. >> coming up at the top of the hour, look at this. scared the hell out of everybody, intimidating with a single grab. >> threatened. >> he's threatened. >> former presidential adviser david axelrod and the outgoing director of the white house economic council gene sperling. "morning joe" will be right back. spokesperson: we decided to settle this.

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michael steele, harold ford back with us i think. gene sperling. great to have you here in the studio. >> great to be here in the studio. >> and in chicago, former senior adviser to president obama, director of university of chicago's institute of politics and msnbc contributor david axelrod i slurred that altogether. joe, you have a choice. >> yes. >> you can tell us what happened while you were late to work the other day or i can tell you what's inside a hot pocket. >> i think everybody would love to know what's inside a hot pocket. >> okay. >> pargs nately hydrogenated soybean oil and corn syrup when packaged together with imitation

mozzarella cheese and artificial butter flavor spiked with mono glis rides and hydro chloride. >> that's good. >> getting a contact high from you reading na. >> edible-like products avoided by many health conscious foodies but even the average factory farmed cheeseburger eating joe might think twice about buying hot pockets. >> they're great for america. >> they're not food. a lot of these things that are frozen are not food. >> you had a hot pocket, didn't you? >> you know as with many things i have no comment on that. >> democratic plan to raise the minimum wage is under fire after a new report from the congressional budget office. >> the proposal to increase the federal minimum wage by about a dollar every year until it reaches $10.10. after that wages adjusted on a yearly basis. the minimum wage is $7.25. that's significantly lower than the minimum wage in 1968 which

was $10.60 adjusted for inflation. but the big headline from yesterday's nonpartisan report is that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers. however, the next line in the report states actually losses could be smaller or larger. ranging from a slight reduction of employment up to 1 million workers. the report also states that 1.5y million workers would see their wage increase, but that's just 19% of that would go to families actually below the poverty line. still, 900,000 americans could be lifted above the poverty threshold because of the increase. a wage hike would also impact tipped workers who would see their hourly wages increase from $2.13 an hour to $4.90 an hour over the same period of time. their wages would then jump by 95 cents each year until it was

70% of the minimum wage. which the cbo estimates would happen in 2019. >> gene, you know, it's not easy being an economist with the congressional budget office because we have such a dynamic economy. you can't have a crystal ball that can see how everything is going to interlock but here, it seems to be even more difficult for the cbo to wrap their arms around it. we split the baby with 500,000 job losses but they say there may be a few losses up to a million. >> what are they really saying? >> they're saying there's going to be a negative impact in some areas, maybe not others. >> first of all let's remember the primary thing in which we agree with them and everybody should agree, which is 16.5 million people would be getting a direct raise. they also said that about 8 million people who probably make around $10.10 now would get a bump. what's uncontroversial this would give a raise to nearly 25

million americans working hard every day. the majority -- most of them are bringing about an average of half of their income in for their family. you know, as you said, think it would probably raise about 2 million people out of poverty. on jobs this is an area where i say we respectfully disagree with the cbo but we have enormous admiration for the institution and their professionalism. here's why. this is actually an area where economists have done very interesting, easy to understand research. they look and say, this was the first research done like this alan krueger and david carr did this, they looked at new jersey when new jersey raised the minimum wage and said wow it's on the border with pennsylvania so we can look and say did fast food restaurants in new jersey, right on the border where they raised wages, did they lose more jobs than in pennsylvania where wages stayed lower. and what they found was, not at all. there was no negative job impact and then -- >> you think the cbo got it

wrong? they obviously -- you say you have great respect for them and the work they do. they obviously had access to the same studies that you're talking about. >> right. >> and others have talked about for some time. why do you think they got it wrong? >> i think that, you know, people are taught in economics 101 that if price goes up there must be a little less supply and i think their mistake was not looking at the practical research that was done because then economists looked at 500 counties where there was this, you know, one state raised the minimum wage and on the other side of the county they did not, and all of them, they found that raised wages and that it did not hurt jobs. there's things you learn about human behavior when you study it as opposed to just look theoretically. it improves morale, productivity, it improves retention. people weren't having to hire new people all the time.

i think we have clear research. seven nobel prize winners who have endorsed this going to $10.10 will increase productivity, morale, retention, give a raise to nearly 25 million people and let me ask a question to those who want to criticize, we are about -- we are less -- we're about where we were in the minimum wage as we were 50 years ago. think about that. 50 years ago. that would be 1964. can you imagine people in 1964 saying we can't have a better minimum wage than in 1914 before world war i? so you're telling me that 50 years later, we as a country -- >> i mean this is ridiculous conversation. >> haven't improved our standard of living enough for people working hard so we can say if you work full-time in the united states of america, this is important to the president's heart, if you work full-time in the united states of america you should not have to raise your children in poverty. >> i -- >> well -- >> hard to disagree. >> certainly that's hard to disagree with and we all would

love for everybody to get $3 more an hour. i don't think michael steele or i or any republican out there wouldn't love that to happen. we aren't crying into a pillow -- >> yeah. >> please let me finish. >> but no -- i can't be set up as a beast that doesn't want somebody to get $10 an hour and then actually have a couple of seconds to explain why. i don't care about corporations that are making record-breaking profits having to pay more money. in fact, i would love to make them pay more if it didn't impact people up and down the chain. my concern is cbo's concern which is that this actually looks if you look at it, and look at the -- who's going to be affected and who's going to be hurt, it's not going to be, you know, a guy wearing a top hat and a monacle. it's going to be other people who are working poor who could be losing their jobs as well. from 500,000 up to a million. that's one concern. the second concern is, these

benefits, $2 billion maybe. >> right. >> only 19% of that money goes to people i think below the poverty line. is that correct? >> that's about what they found it but -- >> this may not be the most efficient way to do it. i don't know what would be a better way forward. but just to say let's do it and the hell with the 500,000 to a million people already, on the verge of poverty losing their jobs, i just don't think it's -- >> that's not what the cbo said. >> what about the practical date a ta showing when the minimum wage has been raised not only those studies, this happened when we were in congress and wages increased, it did not have the negative impact on job creation and did not depress wages to gene's point. >> it depends on whether you follow the cbo or not. the white house has followed the cbo when it suits their purposes but yesterday the cbo came out with a report that doesn't make it as simple as you say. >> data supports what i'm saying. >> data the congressional budget office put data together to say up to a million people could

lose their jobs. >> that's theory. when the minimum wage has been increased it has not impacted the last two times it has not impacted job creation. >> you think the cbo has this wrong. >> i think they could be wrong here. i agree with gene. >> let's remember -- >> let gene respond. >> what's great in the united states of america we have an independent referee who referees our budget scores, how things are counted. we all agree whether we agree or disagree we are going to live with that, but as harold was saying, is an area this is not where they have special expertise and others don't. you've had practical research. even if, you know, even from you want to buy their view which i don't, 25 million americans would get a raise. the practical evidence has shown that this would not have any negative impact on jobs. the practical evidence shows what people know from their own experience, whether people are paid better at work they work harder, more retention. >> so what is the basis -- >> and productivity. >> what is the basis in the

report, you say the cbo has no evidence to come to the conclusions they've come to, what is the evidence that the congressional budget office -- >> no. you and harold are both saying there are no practical studies that back up what the congressional budget office has said. in the report itself how do they -- i'm just asking -- >> so what they do -- >> people in washington would say in philadelphia talk to me like a fourth grader, explain to me, why do they come to this conclusion. >> basic economics you learn in economics 101, people would say if you have a certain amount of money to buy shoes and the price of shoes go up, you might buy, you know -- somebody might buy one less pair of shoes. people say basic economic theory would say that if you have to pay more for a worker, you might hire less workers. >> you're saying they wrapped themselves in basic boilerplate econ 101 theory here. >> okay. >> so -- >> i'm sure they looked at the evidence but what i'm saying is that we as a country can afford

to give people minimum wage. and joe -- i mean can i make a point about about what this would mean for businesses and small businesses? what this doesn't go to $10.10 all of a sudden, goes up 95 cents three years in a row. in 2016, 2016 it hits $10.10. and then it's indexed. what this really does it does a course correction. it recognizes we as a country have let the minimum wage get much too low, that we haven't had a real raise in the minimum wage in 50 years. let's take it up a few steps gradually and then we can index it to inflation, that gives more small businesses and more workers certainty, but it does -- but the reason why this passes the reason why it passed in '96 with an all republican congress, is because it does meet a basic desire in our country to say that if you work hard, you should be able to raise your children -- >> no government resources used. >> so what i was trying to say

was that before everybody around this table gnaws at this number of 1 million reduction in employment like beavers on a piece of wood, read again what it says. it says that the report actually says losses could be smaller or larger. ranging from a slight reduction of employment all the way up to 1 million workers which means they don't really know. i mean what are they really saying? they're not saying you're going to lose a million jobs. but let's just hold on to that for a moment since we did for so long and david axelrod talk about the politics. how do the republicans look if they are against raising the minimum wage, is it sort of like health care? they don't want americans to have health care? they don't want americans to get a raise? is it going to be as simple as that or more complicated? >> there's no doubt that public support for this is very, very strong including among republicans because of what gene said, because there is a fundamental belief if you work for a living you ought not to live in poverty and people ought

to get paid fairly and there is a -- we have two problems in our economy. we have some structural unemployment problems and we also have the long-term wage problem all of you have spoken about and to lift wages of 25 million americans an joe, i don't have the same concern you do about the distribution because a lot of the -- what they're saying is that there are middle-class families with two wage earners and when one of them get ps more money and that lifts the income of families but middle income people have seen their wages flatten too. that's been a problem for our whole economy. we have a demand problem in our economy and if people have more money in their pocket they're going to spend it. that's good for our economy. >> you're talking about the 19% figure that the cbo said that this would -- only 19% of the benefits would go to people at or below the poverty line, you're saying well, so it's still good for middle-class workers who have seen their real wages decline, right? >> no question about it.

there are all kinds of effects of this that are very, very positive. as to the politics, i don't think it's good politics for the republican party to be against it. i understand there's a philosophical debate to be had as harold points out we have this debate every time we have a minimum wage vote and you hear the same kinds of concerns. but i think this is a very, very strong issue and one in which most americans -- on what most americans agree. so the politics are not good in rejecting this. the cbo report, if you accept the high end of their estimate from 0 to a million, gives a little bit of leverage to the argument on the other side, but as you point out, mika, and as gene pointed out, there's quite a bit of debate about that. no debate about the fact it will have a positive impact on wages. >> gene, i wanted to go back to a point that you were making before about real income and $2 billion in a $16 trillion economy. you have right now an

environment in which employers are cutting back, not -- the president is talking about if you can work a full-time job, there are no full-time jobs out there. 40-hour week right now is on the bubble. even if raising the minimum wage over this period of time, how is this a program the way the administration is looking at it that's going to begin to lift people out of poverty at the same time that employers are cutting back the hours. you raise it to $10.10 but i'm only working 20 hours a week or 25 hours a week and not 40. >> i disagree with your premise. i think the facts are clear that the overwhelming amount of job growth has been in full-time jobs and, in fact, you know, people talk about the job growth here, if you look at this recovery compared to the last recovery, we're well over 2 million jobs ahead of where we were in the recovery that took place under president bush and that's happening following a very devastating financial crisis. so i think, you know, one of the

reasons this goes to what david said where i think there is so much support here, is that it's not going to have an impact on jobs and it has -- and i think it's supported because so many families do see people benefiting, the families struggling to raise their children out above poverty, but they also know what it's like to see a friend and a neighbor where one spouse goes back to work who would prefer maybe not to work, maybe they're working part time just to supplement the family's income and they think if that family member is making that sacrifice, spending less time with the child, then they should be making a decent living or be able to work less because they're getting a decent wage. look, $10.10 in 2016 is a moderate increase. i think most americans think people who work full time like that, they aren't relying on the government. in fact, a higher minimum wage means people will rely less on the government, it's more on their own work effort. these are people who just want to work hard and support their family. that's why americans support

increasing the minimum wage. >> want to get one more story. when it comes to the economy analysts say there are signs of a bright spot according to data released by the federal reserve, families are borrowing at the fastest pace since the financial crisis hit. it is seen as a signal that consumers may be feeling a little more comfortable with their economic situations. debt held by u.s. households rose by $241 billion in the fourth quarter to $11.5 trillion. but despite the news, the jobs and the economy are still the top issues on people's minds. according to a recent gallup poll and a new survey finds barely half of the u.s. population has more in emergency savings than credit card debt. i guess in some ways debt is good. growing number of debt. >> to a point. the fact that people are willing to borrow, the fact that they're willing to buy some larger ticket items, can be good for the economy. it shows more confidence.

but make no mistake about it, what you want is an economy where people are working more, where their income is going up, where they're spending more and going back to the minimum wage, that's why that has a good impact on the economy because those are families that actually spend their paycheck, so what we would like to see more is people having the confidence to borrow and buy bigger ticket items. however, that's not the recipe for the future. the recipe for the future is more people working, higher incomes where they're both increasing some of their savings but have the confidence to start spending and i think this is a difficult time because overall, i think there's good reasons for people to have confidence that the economy is strengthening. there's a lot of good indications. we saw the economy grew over 3.5% but we've had all this weather related data and some of it has been weaker than we hoped and we're going to have to wait to see whether it's just weather or -- >> gene, you're leaving the white house? >> my last day is march 5th. >> where are you going? >> you're going to regret it.

>> you're saying that a lot now, aren't you? >> you're going to regret it. >> i get it. >> reference to my bob woodward comment. >> you're going to regret it. >> seriously. a great story after woodward talked about you're going to regret it who was it, that was going to go out in the rain without an umbrella. >> john loveette, former speechwriter said i made the threat to him, once i saw him walking and was about to rain he didn't have an umbrella, i said you will regret that. >> and he just chills up and down his body. >> i'm in a threatening and imposing type of figure going with that image. i haven't been trying to back away from that. >> i'm digging in my shoes. >> gene sperling is leaving march 5th. one of the great example of public service and embodiment, thank you, brother, from clinton to now, you didn't have to do this and you did it. >> thank you. >> i think david axelrod is one of the great examples. giving back to the kids.

how is the institute of politics going in chicago? that is a special place. >> excellent. it's been buzzing since you were out there. >> of course it has. >> really? >> yeah. >> they invited you. >> i thought it was sweet you let three republicans go to that big event. >> we have -- >> many republicans. reince priebus was there last week. >> really? >> yes. >> he got out alive? >> really. >> he did very well out there. >> david, i'll see you in may. >> it's a special place. going in may? >> i'll be out there doing -- >> look if michael steele is coming we are really excited about that. >> that's great. >> fun. >> let's do a fund-raiser for cure there, david. >> it's a good idea. >> we'll do it. >> let's make it happen. >> gene, thank you so much. good luck. >> thanks for having me on set. >> great to have you here. >> republican senator john thune standing by. he joins the table next on "morning joe." let's take a look at the forecast as we go throughout the day. i have to show you this lady in des plain, illinois, driving in

the snow like so many of us have done, but her traction, she lost it on the train tracks as the gates were closing. her wheel was stuck right on top of the tracks. she couldn't back up in time. and she got nailed. thankfully, she was not harmed. just minor injuries. but it was a close call. i mean that locomotive hit her right in the front left in the driver's side. today if you're driving out there, pennsylvania, some freezing rain for you, also rain kicking up through areas of the mid-atlantic. as we go throughout the day watch out in new england, still very cold from albany to hartford through boston. you're going to get a period of freezing rain out there and then it will warm up this afternoon. speaking of warmups, about time. today, 40 in chicago, minneapolis 39, there's a place called marquette, michigan, the first time today in 75 days they'll go above 32 degrees. can you imagine that? for two and a half months not one drop of water has melted in marquette, michigan.

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with us now republican senator from south dakota, john thune. how are you doing? >> i'm doing okay. you? >> i'm doing well. >> surviving the winter? >> oh, my gosh. i was going to -- about to complain about the bad winter but you come from south dakota so i'll keep my mouth shut. >> one for the record books. >> has it? >> >> up in south dakota as well? >> yeah. the number of days where the highs don't get above zero, the consistently bone chilling cold has been pretty extraordinary. >> how is business in south dakota. >> really good. >> what's unemployment rate? >> 3.6. >> oh, my gosh. >> why? >> not as good as north dakota

where it's 2.6. they have the energy thing going up there but we have financial service, health care, drive es of our economy, and real very favorable business economic climate there. >> do you get any positive impact from what's going on in north dakota economically? >> we do. >> how does north impact south dakota? >> quite a spillover, the trucks going 24/ from rapid city to the wilston basin. electrical, all kinds of guys doing work up there. a ripple effect. we don't get the direct benefit from it. i kid my friends from north dakota, some day we'll repay them stealing the territorial capital by horizontally drilling into their oil and pulling it down into south dakota. >> isn't it almost surreal that america's energy revolution -- >> yeah. >> as i say on this show all the time, an economic revolution that is going to impact the way our children and possibly

grandchildren live economically. >> yeah. >> started in the dakota. >> it's amazing. there were some people who had the foresight to make the investment up there. the resource coming out of there now is stunning. it's going to be there for a long time. >> look, the geographic pivot not only impact our kids economically will radically change and transform the conversation about national security where we spend and allocate resources. i'm a supporter of the keystone pipeline as this conversation evolves a bit and hopeful that the white house will pay attention to the new reports. i disagree with the numbers coming from my democratic friends that it creates a poultry number of jobs. it creates the economic impact, have the tax revenue from states that this pipeline touches and create higher paying jobs people are going across the boarder from south da kcocota to north dakota, we talk about raising and putting pressure on wages. i'm hopeful the white house and others will approve this. >> harold was more of a right

thinking guy when he was in congress. >> i'm a pro-business democrat. >> it's hard to talk to him without oil coming out of his ears. he's like me. >> it is a competitive advantage for our economy. >> yeah. >> you look at what energy is a huge input in the cost of doing business in this country and it's something obviously that every family has to use in their daily lives. if we can keep that price down it's good. >> since the owe peck crisis, embargo in '73/ '74 we have been captive to foreign oil and our children are not going to be captive to foreign oil and as harold said, it's not only going to make manufacturing cheaper at home, it's not only going to grow jobs here in america, it's not only going to allow us to compete globally, once again in manufacturing and explode the economy, it's also going to change our foreign policy. >> right. >> we're not -- >> huge. >> we are not going -- why will

we care, you know, what's happening in the middle east as far as -- as far as energy policy goes, because asia is going to be buying 90%, 95% of that oil in the coming decades because we're getting ours here. >> yeah. it's a great answer and that whole -- the national security component of that is something that really does tip the scales in a way that lessens the need that we have today and have had for, you know, decades now to be very interested in what happened in the middle east. >> but really the impact it has on south america, middle east will continue to have to be involved and reorient and, you know, reininvigorate how we do it, but venezuela and others whose policies have been dent metal to us and growth in that region won't have the sway globally that they do because of what we will be able to do here which is why we should lift bans on imports here. the geographic pivot, the energy renaissance has allowed it to

happen. >> for me in 2008, my mantra was drill baby drill, today with excel it's build baby build. that's where we are. the job component, there is the self-sufficiency component for the u.s. is sort of it continued its emergence in a global marketplace as a leader and to what harold is saying internationally. >> right. >> i think this puts a lot of pieces on the table. if i could i wanted to shift to something and get your thoughts. we've been talking about the minimum wage and the impact of this debate, particularly on the poor. >> right. >> and i think a lot of people can't lose sight at the end of the day we're talking about real people who are struggling to get out of poverty and there are a lot of us who feel and joe articulated this for the last couple hours, that this is really not a shift from the rich to the poor, but a shift within the ranks of the poor. how do republicans see this argument shaping up? and what is a couple of the

pitfalls we need to be mindful of, keeping in sight the fact that you're talking about real lives, real people trying to move out of poverty into a little thing called prosperity. >> i think a lot of us who grew up in jobs and we had a lot of seasonal jobs growing up, i worked for less than the minimum wag and the minimum wage but they were jobs. young people need those type of jobs. everybody wants to see people come up the economic ladder but the bad thing i think about that particular policy is, and you mentioned it earlier, joe, it's economics 101. if you want more of something you don't normally raise the price. want more jobs, want more employment, you don't raise the price of it. we're having a debate in our state going to be on the ballot to raise it to $8.50 and i think the states are in a better position to determine in terms of what their economic needs are to make those decisions. >> 8.50 with a state that has 3.2% unemployment. i'm just thinking, the economy is in a pretty good place to absorb that if you decide to do

that i don't think you're going see a lot of jobs losses. going in a jobless recovery from up to 10, that's significant. >> it's a big move and what the cbo said, i know you've been debating it the last hour or so, really is that it could cost a million jobs. you couple that with the cbo report last week that obama care is going to reduce jobs by about 2.5 million why would we put policies in place to reduce jobs when the best way for people to climb out of the economic situation they're in is through a good job. and it strikes me at least we ought to be focused on policies that create jobs, grow the economy, expand the economy and the cbo studies both of these two studies have said and you can argue about the translation of it but it was clear what they said yesterday, could cost up to a million jobs. >> isn't it fascinating two cbo reports come out within a week both talk about costing anywhere from 2 million to 3 million jobs. of course the democrats have gone out and harold, i'm sorry, this is one of the rare times in

the history of msnbc where a democrat is outnumbered three to one, i kind of like it, i'll be honest, endure this and our viewers at home that have watched the democratic hour of power for the past several years, just enjoy this. >> this is how you feel. >> exactly. >> i usually feel much worse than that because i'm usually outnumbered worse than this three hours a day, but it's almost surreal we're sitting here talking about two policies at a time when we're having a jobless recovery when millions and millions of americans are struggling to get back into the work force and we're talking about two different policies that are actually going to cost jobs. we don't know how many. an we can all have a debate about that. why aren't we debating cbo reports talking about policies that grow the economy, that get people back to work, that understand the best social policy is a job. >> right. >> not a top down trickle down bureaucratic approach that we're seeing out of washington right now. >> i agree. i think there's some low hanging

fruit. we mentioned keystone pipeline, trade promotion authority something that the administration is resisting or the president proposed but democrats in the senate resisting create immediate jobs out there. and so let's focus on those things that we -- it's low hanging fruit. bipartisan support for some of these things. but do things that actually bend the curve in the direction of job creation as opposed to small ball ideas that do very little to help anybody's situation in life and cost us jobs. >> john, we got to go. >> all right. >> small ball, that reminds me, you two guys can take on anybody in the house gym. i have to ask you quickly, what was the nba thinking by changing the rules op the slam dunk competition this weekend? insanity? >> i'm a purism, i'm old school guy. i liked the jordan dominique days. here's the thing, we were the champs and i had more assists. >> just throw it out, baby. >> he was unbelievable. the games were -- >> he's a baller.

>> he scored 12 i had 12 assists. >> we still hold the title two on two championship in the house gym. i think we could still hold it. >> still win it. >> we might be able to. >> i can still throw the lob. >> thanks so much. coming up on tomorrow's show senator rob portman with us and coming up next we're going to go live to ukraine where richard engel is going to update us on the protests that may have taken irreversible turn. more "morning joe" straight ahead. no two people have the same financial goals. pnc investments works with you to understand yours and helps plan for your retirement. talk to a pnc investments financial advisor today. ♪

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eu for be ministers set to hold an emergency meeting as violence rages in ukraine. images of thousands advancing on riot police hurling molotov cocktails setting massive fires have captivated the world. richard engel is live for us in ukraine's capital. good morning. fill nous on what we're seeing in daylight. >> good morning. you are still seeing fires burning in this city as the clashes and standoff continue. behind me, in independence square, there are thousands gathered below, being kept there by riot police and also determined to stay. the medical officials say at least 25 people have been killed, most of them protesters, since the clashes really turned for the worse yesterday. this situation is far from over, thomas. >> central kiev this morning was

smoldering and burning. riot police reinforced their positions around independence square, but the police have left a few roads open if the protesters decide they want to leave. but they don't want to leave. in fact, the demonstrators several thousand are making independence square their alamo, their place to stand against the government's pro-moscow policies. >> last chance for us. >> reporter: and they're streaming it all live on the internet. this is the dividing line between the two sides. over here you have the riot police, they are well equipped and numerically probably have the upper hand. behind them you see the barricades that the demonstrators have set up and then set on fire. it's a fire line that the protesters are using to keep these riot police away from them. and behind that still smoking fire line are the proteste erer themselves. it's still in close proximity

and violent. last night central kiev looked nothing less than apocalyptic. the government had its losses when it tried to send in an armored personnel carrier that was set on fire and the protesters fighting with bricks and molotov cocktails dragged away one of their own who had been shot. the embattled president viktor yanukovych gave a national address saying he's trying to bring law and order after demonstrators resorted to violence. these were once peaceful demonstrations. but they're not that anymore. and thomas, you can probably hear some very loud explosions. those are fireworks not bombs or real explosives and you can also hear a -- someone speaking on a loud speaker. that loud speaker is in the center of the protest camps, one of the leaders speaking on the loud speaker calling for reinforcements. he's saying we need more men.

we need tires. if people have cars they should donate their tires so they can burn them and keep the bonfires going. they believe the bonfires around the demonstrators are what is keeping the riot police from storming in. >> richard, we reported earlier this morning that vice president biden reached out to president yanukovych who has the diplomatic upper hand in this with the u.s. involvement and with the pro-russia policies from their government as well as the eu's involvement? >> this conflict which is playing out right here in independence square has enormous international implication. these protests began about three months ago when demonstrators wanted closer ties with the eu. they also want closer ties with washington. the ukrainian government has very close ties with moscow and in a sense there is a cold war dynamic here where you have part of the country leaning toward the west wanting better relations with the united states and europe, and the government wanting to maintain close ties

with moscow. so that is a fundamental split here and also the way we're seeing this -- the political chips fall. today, the ukrainian president, his close ally, vladimir putin, and both the ukrainian and russian government, call this protest movement a coup attempt. >> richard engel reports in kiev for us, stay safe, thank you, sir. coming up next our guest says that there is a secret takeover of america's food business. >> really? >> really. >> the author christopher leonard calls it the heartland's biggest scandal. >> oh, good. >> and will join us to talk all about that. "morning joe" is back right after this. [ male announcer ] these days, a small business can save by sharing.

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never really see that on a menu when you go out to dinner. i'll have the caesar salad and the hot pocket.

tonight's specials, we have a seabass which is broiled and we have a hot pocket which is cooked in a dirty microwave. and that comes with a side of pepto. is your hot pocket cold in the middle? it's frozen. but it can be served boiling lava hot. will it burn my mouth? it will destroy your mouth. everything will taste like rubber for a month. >> yeah. i wish it wasn't so funny because it is true. >> jim, he is funny. >> jim is great but that's not food, nor is pizza in a pocket or any of these frozen whatever they are. >> if you have those hot pockets in your fridge check to make sure they're not under recall by the hot pockets people. >> there is that. oh, god. it's just -- it's all very, very sad. >> you shouldn't play with your hot pocket like that person is doing. it makes it gross. >> that is true. you should not play with your hot pocket. >> no. here with us now, thank you,

thomas. >> you're welcome. >> new america foundation fellow chris leonard the author of "the meat racket" the secret takeover of america's food business. you do not write about hot pockets in your book, do you? >> hot pockets didn't make it into the book, i have to say. >> this is a pretty big story. the secret takeover of america's food business. basically give us your premise here. we did some research as well and got some responses from some not very happy with you. >> i didn't expect them to embrace the book. what it lays out is the history of where we are today which is that four companies basically dominate our meat system, four companies, for example, make over 85% of the beef in the united states, three companies make almost half of the chicken in the united states. 30 years ago it was very different. the top four beef companies only made about 26% of the beef. just to give you an example. what happens when you have a situation like this, is the companies get so much market power that what they can do is

depress what they pay farmers to raise meat, while at the same time keeping prices higher for consumers who buy meat, and keeping the profit in the middle. we've seen this happen before. it happened about 100 years ag with sort of the old-line meat packers you might have heard of, like armor and twist, and spurred radical antitrust forms to deal with it back then, and the industry today is more consolidated. >> well, how did it happen over this period of time that four companies end um handling the bulk of sales to consumers and -- >> how does that impact the food -- >> and how -- in a highly regulated industry like the meat industry is, how did that happen? >> the meat industry is highly regulated at certain points. when it came to antitrust enforcement, it was lightly regulated over recent decades. the book shows how in the '70s, '80s and '90s, companies like tyson foods and smithfield foods went on a massive merger spree,

and we had a wave of consolidate that made them the giant companies we have today. it was the execution of a brilliant and audacious business strategy on their part -- the bigger you are, the harder you are to compete with. and basically, policymakers stood aside and let the consolidation happen. >> thomas, you have a response. >> you ruffled some feathers. from the american meat institution. >> just read that one. >> saying mr. leonard's criticism should be examined against its results. if a competitive industry that operates under the most intensive regulatory and inspection regime in america, and still produces the safest, most varied, most abundant, and affordable food supply in the world isn't good enough for mr. leonard, then we challenge him to point to a nation with a better system. while waiting for that answer, we'll keep on providing meat and poultry to the 95% of americans who routinely make our products part of their diets. >> and how are those products? >> we've been talking on the show today about a massive beef

recall that happened from one plant. in the era where we live, we have mega-meat plants, giant meat plants, the likes of which didn't exist a long time ago. when you have contamination at one plant, it can spread through the food system very quickly. so the argument about food safety really does raise a lot of questions. and secondly, i think the united states has done it better. we've done it better. in the past, when we had more competition in our meat industry. competition is good for entrepreneurs. it's good for farmers. it's good for consumers. it gives consumers more choice, and we've lost a lot of that. >> is the solution to break up, like, tyson and companies like that? >> i think that if you broke up tyson foods and companies like that it would instantly increase competition in rural america. it would give farmers a chance to pick between one or two companies to do business with instead of being stuck with a local monopoly, which i can tell you having spent years on the ground in small towns like

waldren, arkansas, they operate with regional companies. and if you broke up the regional companies, it could give consumers more choice. instead of one or two firms to choose from, you would have more. >> which then the competition is to have the best options. go to our website to read the full response from the american meat institute and the response from tyson foods, as well. the book is "the meat racket." chris leonard, great work. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ameriprise asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you outlive your money? uhhh. no, that can't happen. that's the thing, you don't know how long it has to last. everyone has retirement questions. so ameriprise created the exclusive..

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♪ good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, 5:00 a.m. on the west coast, as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set, we have mike barnicle. have you finished reading the swimsuit issue, mike? >> no, actually, i'm just looking at the pictures. i'm not reading. >> reading? >> i am not reading. i'm ogling. but please continue. >> yeah. wow. >> he doesn't really care about the foliage in maui. they have just sort of the stories wrap around the pictures with mike. >> michael steele. stop! >> i'm just -- >> harold ford jr. and in washington, robert gibbs. and ezra cline, who only looks at policy papers. let's get to the news. a democratic plan to raise the minimum wage is under fire today after new reports by the congressional budget office.

the proposal is to increase the federal minimum wage by about $1 every year until it reaches $10.10. i think that's a great idea, joe, don't you? after that, wages would be adjusted on a yearly basis. he's working very hard on not interrupting me, which i think is really good, because he'll like the point of this story. right now, the minimum wage is $7.25. that's significantly lower than the minimum wage in 1968, which was $10.60, adjusted for inflation. but the big headline from yesterday's nonpartisan report is that raising the minimum wage to $10.10 would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers. >> right. >> however -- however, the next line in the report states, actual losses could be smaller or larger, ranging from a slight reduction of the employment all the way to 1 million workers. the report also states -- >> i don't see that in this report. [ laughter ]

i don't -- >> it's near the end. >> oh. >> i thought it was in the middle. [ laughter ] >> what, seriously, what you putting this all over in front of the guys, why are you doing this? >> because harold's company made -- >> my wife's company -- >> harold's wife's company made that little patch of material. >> oh, wait. >> wait. harold, she made this patch right here? >> 2x2. >> basta surf. >> a sample sent to me for material. >> oh, that right there? >> yes. >> you show that? >> yes, that's it. isn't that nice? >> really, the overhead must be pretty high in that company. >> so what does that cost? >> you have circled it, and i appreciate it. i don't know -- i want to be clear, it was your work, which i appreciate. and my wife -- look, this is a big deal for people in this

business, and i'm happy for my wife. >> big deal for us. >> absolutely. [ laughter ] >> we appreciate your wife's efforts. >> thank you, michael. >> you're welcome, my friend. >> give her my congrats. >> i just -- i can't stand it. i'm jealous. i just can't stand it. i'm sorry. >> nor can i. it just drives me crazy. >> it's what makes me, like, have problems. so i'm not going to do that anymore. i look great! okay. >> you look awesome. awesome. as long as your mother is not -- >> well, my mother e-mailed me -- >> look at this. it's breaking out all over. what's going on? [ laughter ] look at that. i mean, what's going on here? >> the winter doldrum. all right. make me nervous. okay. the report also states that 16.5 million workers would see their wages increase to the tune

of $31 billion, but that's just 19% of what would go to families who actually live below the poverty line. and, michael steele, here's the problem. you look at the cbo report. up to 1 million people could lose their jobs. >> right. >> according to the cbo. that's the high end. but up to 1 million people could lose their jobs if the unemployment -- if the minimum wage goes up to 10 bucks. >> right. >> but it's offset by maybe 500,000 people getting better wages. but what the cbo says is that doesn't all go to people who live below the poverty line. >> right, right. >> that goes to, you know, a lot of people who, you know, have teenagers working and -- >> that's right. transitional work, yeah. >> so the question is, it's a balancing act. and all of the people that say, there's not a study out there that says raising, you know, minimum wage costs jobs, no, it could cost up to 1 million jobs. >> it could cost up to 1 million

jobs, and the thing about this, with the minimum wage, is always -- i always kind of scratched my head on, businesses bake this into what they do. >> right. >> you know, if they get the sense -- and this is why businesses like to plan. they like to see if the congress is going to talk about the minimum wage, they debate this stuff into how they're going to hire, fire, rearrange their workforce. >> and how much they're -- and how much -- how much they're going to charge for hamburgers. >> right. >> how much they're going to charge for all of the items, for all of the goods. so charles krauthammer, charles, i thought put it pretty well yesterday, when he said this isn't a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor. this is a transfer of wealth from the poor to the poor, because if you have 500,000 to 1 million people losing their jobs and going deeper into poverty, yes, there will be some winners. >> right. >> but make no mistake, there's no free lunch. this is the maddening thing about this argument. there is no free lunch. >> right. >> people will pay, and a lot of

it is going to come from other poor people. >> i think raising the minimum wage can't be the only thing you do. you've got to obviously have other visionary policies that lift people out of poverty. but i will tell you that making $7.25 an hour is not a wage, and let as not pretend it is, and let's not pretend we're helping people by not raising the minimum wage because of this report. >> okay. but the who of that is -- >> let's not pretend, also, mika, there's such thing as a free lunch. >> right. >> people will pay, when you go from paying certain amount to $10 an hour, people are going to pay. and it's not going to be people like you or me or anybody at this table, and it won't even be ceos. you're talking about social justice. what the cbo is talking about here, and charles kraulthammer, it will be other poor people

paying, as well. it needs to be adjusted for inflation. >> thank you. that's what i want to hear from you. >> i'm not talking about zeroing it out. when we're in a time of crises that we're still in, in this jobless recovery, i don't think it's time to jump at three bucks. not because it's going to hurt me or rich birdurden buddies, b it will hurt other working poor people. >> every time we talk about raising the minimum wage, these studies come out, saying we'll lose jobs and have a depressing effect on the wages. the last two times we've done it, it's not done it. if you index to inflation, the minimum wage, we would have raised it to over $10 at this point. i would argue perhaps we could do it at a slower pace if it has the impact the cbo warns. and if we do raise it, it should be coupled with tax breaks and tax incentives, particularly for small businesses and restauranteurs who have done, what michael said eloquently, baked this in early on.

and to mika's point, we're subsidizing people earning the minimum wage anyway. we need to have a big conversation in this country about what's fair and what can be afforded by the business community and how government can be helpful. we pay huge amounts of unemployment benefits. i would love to take some of the unemployment benefits and perhaps provide tax breaks to small businesses in this country, to your point, middle-class people who are paying the minimum wage and who are paying this to workers, to give them that break and give them that incentive to do that. >> so as we -- ezra, let me bring you in really quickly, a and have you talk about what the cbo touched on, and that's just how unpredictable this all is. they range from, what, 100,000 lost jobs to 1 million lost jobs, so they split the baby in half and said, 500,000 lost jobs. we really don't know, because the economy is so dynamic. it may be, you know, maybe we gain jobs. maybe we lose 1.5 million. nobody knows. >> yeah. one of the difficult things about getting into this particular minimum wage

conversation is that there's so much economic research on it, and more recent research said the number of jobs you lose is smaller, if any, so the cbo has an employment impact so small you can't see it to a 1 million jobs. and bringing 900,000 people out of poverty. there's a headline number in this report that's getting missed, which is 2 billion. after you account for anything, all of the jobs you might lose, income gains, you have a net real income gain to workers of 2 billion. so the net is a positive. you talk about a change of low-wage workers to flow-wage workers, but you talk about high income, from rich worker, ceos, to low-income workers, the american jobs act, somebody could stand up and say, let's jump up the earned income tax credit, and that's been killed, primarily by republicans, in congress, too. so at some point you do need to pick and do something for folks

struggling in the economy. the minimum wage people fascinate on because it doesn't have a cost to the deficit, about you it does have this other tradeoff effect, which is on the margin some kind of disemployment. >> we're talking a lot about income disparity, the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. what would be the one item you would like passed into law that you think would do more, not solve the problem, but do more to lessen the divide between the richest americans and the poorest americans? >> at the moment, boy go back a couple of years, or even do that put in the american jobs act. the biggest problem right now is simple joblessness. that going forward, as these people leave the labor force, the skills deteriorate as a relationship to deteriorate in the workforce, they become a permanent class of the under or ov unemployed, so what i would say now is we have a long-term equality problem, and the thing we should be doing at this second is fix the job crisis as best we can.

and we know how to do that. we have good legislation to do that. and that's something we could do, where the folks that are paying for it are the folks who could afford to pay for it as opposed to the folks who would have more trouble. >> robert gibbs, we're going to see a couple days of cat fights between the various economists, the cbo, larry katz, very respected economist from harvard, said the cbo's numbers are skewed because they didn't rely on up-to-date data, whatever. i have difficulty absorbing the argument made by some that a raise in the minimum wage is a transfer of wealth. i have never thought of raising the minimum wage as a transfer of wealth, from wealthy ceos or billionaires down to people who are now making $7.25 an hour hoping to get them up over a period of years to 10.10 an hour. your thoughts, sir. >> well, look, i agree with a lot of what ezra said. i think we've got to look at income disparity and joblessness

not just as one policy, but as a number of different policies, particularly tax policies. but i'm struck, as joe said, there is no free lunch. i do think that this proposal would raise wages for 16.5 million people and help them afford a little bit better lunch, or help them afford the lunch they're paying for now. i think that if you look at -- >> -- the cost to others, robert? >> again, there's -- you mentioned there's tradeoffs in this, but the tradeoff of pulling people out of poverty, the tradeoff of raising people's wages, the stock market went up 33% last year. >> right. >> people's wages went down last year. even as corporations did well, even as businesses did well, people watched their wages either stagnate, or they lost real wages when you factor in inflation. >> yeah. >> you know, we're not going to prosper as a society if the people that work in businesses can't afford to purchase the things that they make in those businesses. >> robert, i agree with you, as

we've been saying on this show for a long time, the real wages for american workers have been on the decline since 1973. it's a generational problem. >> yeah. >> the rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer. but, i do think, as we look for solutions, at least as far as i'm concerned, my -- if you just say, well, people will be able to afford a better lunch for we raise the minimum wage, that also takes into account that perhaps up to 1 million people will lose their jobs and fall deeper into poverty. so that's the tradeoff that i'm talking about. again, i don't -- i don't really give a damn about corporations making money on wall street. i don't care if they lose money. i mean, i don't care if they lose a little money on the margins, because they have to pay their workers 10 bucks an hour instead of 7 bucks an hour. but i am concerned about the working poor struggling right now, and small business owners, restauranteurs and these types

of people, the negative impact that that might have. and that's the biggest -- >> so the question is, then, what is the solution? if we're not willing to absorb that point into this discussion, what's the reality for the working poor at this point? if you're sitting here saying, well, if we raise the minimum wage until you get to $10 an hour or $11 an hour, that some of you are going to lose your jobs, how do we begin to find that right balance? >> i think, first, we have to -- we've got to pick a number that's not going to cause serious problems to the economy right now, a struggling economy with the jobless recovery. find that point that both sides can agree on, and index it to inflation. >> let's go to ukraine, at least, where there has been massive developments overnight. e.u. foreign ministers are set to hold an emergency meeting as violence rages on in ukraine. images of thousands of protesters advancing on riot police, hurling molotov cocktails and setting massive

fires have captivated the world. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel reports. >> reporter: it has all the signs of a revolution, and it's taking place in kiev's independence square. anti-government demonstrators barricaded themselves in, setting bonfires, throwing stones, and lobbing molotov cocktails, even fireworks, to keep riot police from driving them out. they dared the riot police to kill them, to kill their own countrymen. violence began hours earlier when radical protesters tried to march on parliament. but riot police drove them back with rubber bullets, stun grenades, and protesters say live ammunition. [ gunshots ] the protesters had weapons of their own, including, the government said, guns. police officers were reportedly shot dead.

government forces tried to shut down kiev, stopping subway traffic to keep new protesters from the square and issuing a chilling ultimatum. to clear out, or the state would use all legal means to restore order. but the protesters made a stand in independence square, and now there's talk of revolution, even civil war, with international implications. reminiscent of the cold war. the ukrainian government is backed by moscow. the protesters want closer ties with europe and the united states. moscow directly accused washington of playing puppeteer, manipulating the protesters. russia thinks washington is behind the uprising, to make russia lose a key ally that was once part of the soviet union. violence, the worse since the clashes began three months ago, could be the start of a new future for ukraine. >> all right. it's incredible.

and constant. they've been coming in for hours. let's bring in nbc news foreign correspondent amman, and clearly the opposition will meet with the president today. what could come out of that? and we know vice president biden reached out to the leader of ukraine. what are the implications here, especially pertaining to russia? and as you speak, we're going to take a look at more live pictures coming in to us as the protesters continue. >> well, right now, the situation on the ground, as you mentioned, remains very tense. there's no doubt there's an attempt at least from the diplomatic community to try to resolve this peacefully. we're getting some sense of what the europeans might be doing in the coming hours. they're holding emergency talks in brussels on thursday. they plan, according to some european sources, to sanction or punish at least some of the individuals that are being held responsible for those killings, particularly those from the ukrainian government. there's no doubt that all sides are calling for restraint from violence, but really this has

reached beyond a political crisis for the ukrainian government. i don't see right now a situation whereby the protesters are going to accept president yanukovych to remain in power, but at the same time, the president is framing this as a security crisis, as a war on terrorism, and that really is threatening the stability of the entire country, so he does have his supporters particularly from the government, and the eastern part of the country closer to russia. >> all right, amman, thank you so much. keep us posted. we'll be watching the live pictures as they come in today, and watching for the emergency meeting, as well. coming up on "morning joe" -- venezuela's bracing for more protests following a wild day in the capital city. what the arrest of a top opposition leader means for that country's stability. plus, the chinese military says its soldiers have grown too fat to fit into their tanks. >> it happens. >> that's ahead in the morning papers. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast.

do not give us any bad news. >> it's all good. >> all good news, at least until next week. more on that later. let's deal with the big warm-up, because right now, 34% of the country has snow covering it. it's actually, many people will think it's worse than that. but areas like chicago, minneapolis, indianapolis, and all through the northeast, there's been so much snow. you've been hearing a lot about it on the news. the snow-depth map across the country. what are we dealing with now? a little taste of spring across the nation. we're melting some of the snow, at least. you notice where the snow is really deep on the ground -- from minneapolis to chicago to new york to boston -- it's still kind of cool. until we get rid of the snow, it's hard to warm it up significantly. that's where we are. as far as wednesday's concerned. now, the february thaw intensifies. we get a big storm in the middle of the country thursday. they'll have a lot of problems, minneapolis area could be dealing with a blizzard out ahead of the storm, and with the warm air, you can't win around here this time of year. heading into spring, we have the

warm air, and enough out there for a severe weather outbreak. we'll see wind damage, from detroit all the way south down to areas to the gulf. so it will be a widespread line of strong storms going across the country. i mentioned that there is a little bit of bad news again next week. it looks like another shot of cold air, that dreaded polar vortex-type thing will be dropping down near the hudson bay, and it looks like the end of february will be very, very chilly. we leave you a shot of washington, d.c. there's snow on the lawn. i'd say by about friday, all of the snow will be long gone. you're watching "morning joe." ♪

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♪ let's look at the morning papers. from the "washington post," from the parade of papers, in just a few hours, the man leading thousands of anti-government protesters in venezuela is going to be appearing in court. >> leopoldo lopez turned himself into the national guard yesterday after a massive rally. lopez says he's willing to spend years in prison if it leads venezuela changing its socialist policies. venezuela's government is blaming lopez for at least four deaths during the protests. he is facing terrorism and murder charges. and from "the boston globe," president obama is using his executive power to make big trucks more fuel efficient and cut down on greenhouse gases. the president is asking his administration to develop standards that are new by march 2016. heavy-duty trucks account for about 20% of the carbon pollution from the

transportation industry. and, you know, that's when we have boone pickens on. he talks about moving to natural gas and fitting them that way, because all of the greenhouse gases that would be eliminated by that. president obama didn't specify how much the standards would actually cut emissions, but this certainly, if you're talking about 20% of greenhouse gases, in is certainly a great place to start. >> "the portland press-herald" says the country's first smart guns hit store shelves. this comes with a watch that can control who can fire the gun. the gun will only fire if the watch is close by. the pistol will run you about $1,400 plus about 400 for the watch. >> the thing is, there a lot of people -- think about it. there are a lot of people that may not want to have guns in their house -- >> right. >> -- if they have children in their house. i don't know. >> maybe that changes? >> yeah, yeah, it might change it. >> it might.

the "wall street journal," the price tag for target's massive data breach continues to rise. financial institutions say costs from the data theft now exceed $200 million, and that includes replacing credit or debit cards for nearly 22 million customers. this number does not include fraudulent activity. hackers stole the information of nearly 70 million shoppers during the attack. and from the "san francisco chronicle" mike barnicle, pay attention. >> oh. >> the staple of your diet, hot pockets, being pulled from the shelves amid a link to a huge beef recall. >> oh! >> nestle is recalling 238,000 cases of both your favorite, philly cheesesteak and cheese and croissant crust philly cheese and steak hot pockets. >> oh, god. who would buy these and eat them? >> might barnicle, he accounts of the 150,000 of the 238,000 that -- >> it's not food, people! >> he has a freezer on his upper west side, like a co-op. >> never liked them.

>> this is not food. this is not food! >> this is better than food. >> cougar mellencamp wrote a song about hot pockets. it's got a small amount of meat from rancho feeding fields, and customers are advised not to eat the products and to return them for a refund. can we get a shot over at the main table now, guys, really quickly? >> seriously. >> see what they're doing over there. they're not paying attention to what they should be paying attention to, mika. we're talking about the newspapers. this is the most important part of the show, i think, for the kids at home who wake up and say, i want to know what's going on outside of my own neighborhood, right? >> right. >> what are these pervs? >> this is the cbo report. >> yeah, anyway, let's go to the "capital journal." >> that's funny. a new bill in kansas will allow parents and teachers to spank children hard enough to leave redness and bruising.

representative gail finney says the bill protects parents from being charged with child abuse. did defines corporal punishment hitting the child on the buttocks 10 times with one's palm and using reasonable force to restrain the child. it allows spanking as long as it doesn't leave any marks. >> you spank your kids growing up? >> maybe once or twice, but i never felt good about it. >> you're not supposed to feel good about it. your parents ever spank you? >> oh, god, yes. with a hairbrush on the side of the road. >> and my dad, one motion. belt. pow. >> side of the road, humiliation. >> no, it wasn't humiliation, just sheer corporal punishment, and it was effective. i spanked joey one time. >> it's kind of changed you for good. >> yeah -- yes. no, i did it once. >> tell everybody what happened the other day. >> no. >> come on.

>> so i spanked joey one time, that's the only -- other than that, i think that's about it. >> okay. >> because you're 6'4", you can glare down at them and -- >> the "washington post," please share the story. >> no, no. >> the chinese military is outgrowing its tanks, literally. a report published in the country's official army newspaper says soldiers have become too tall and fat for their equipment. some saarmored vehicles were designed 20 years ago when they were thinner and shorter. up next, the modern king of improve comedy. wayne brady joins us. "morning joe" will be right back. [ park sounds, sound of spray paint ]

♪ we asked people a question, how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? $500,000. maybe half-million. say a million dollars. [ dan ] then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. ♪ i was trying to like pull it a little further. you know, i was trying to stretch it a little bit more. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. [ man ] i looked around at everybody else and i was like, "are you kidding me?" [ dan ] it's just human nature to focus on the here and now. so it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more. so maybe we need to approach things differently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪

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snowe ♪ ♪ ♪ let me break out the baby oil ♪ ♪ baby oil yeah, boris, you're not the only brother who speaks german ♪ ♪ you know what i'm saying [ speaking foreign language ] ♪ glistening body

[ cheers ] ♪ oh, my eyes oh, my god, it burns ♪ ♪ oh, yeah >> okay, that was a clip from this year's "b.e.t. honors" hosted by wayne brady. wayne joins us on the set. he was just tweeting. >> yes, he was. >> how are you? >> good morning to you. >> you're pretty good up there on stage. >> if i weren't, i shouldn't be there. >> exactly! >> you don't give the gig to the guys and, yeah, he'll be ehhh. >> yeah, you're amazing. >> for all of us who became familiar with your work on "whose line is it anyway?" which is fantastic, you're a quadruple threat. sing, act, dance, and you're funny. >> well, thank you very much. >> and he doesn't look bad either. >> and he speaks german. >> and i speak german gibberish, apparently, that's making fun of boris kovoght, a buddy of mine,

isn't good looking at all. 6'5" on him. everything on him is muscle. women love him. in the opening monologue, i made fun, because i'm sexier than you, wayne, and you shouldn't be hosting the show, so i ripped off my tux and pouring baby oil -- yeah, it's something the "b.e.t. honors" wayne brady dancing to a parody dressed in baby oil with gordie and shenault in the front row. >> and all the while speaking german gibberish. >> yes. >> and you talked about the b.e.t. awards, and barry gordie, one of the honorees. >> yes, barry gordie. >> aretha. >> aretha franklin. come on! ice cube, who, in my humble opinion, gave probably the best, most heartfelt acceptance speech.

carrie maeweems, the esteemed photographer and artist. it was such an amazing group of people, and some of them were the usual suspects, like barry gordie, who has a musical legacy, and like aretha. but kenneth shenault, who happens to be the ceo of american express, this says, thank you for being with you, raises them up, and says you guys are paragons, and something to shoot for, and be at the helm of the show, that's ridiculous. >> talk about ice cube. obviously, he came out of nowhere with "friday" and another -- >> yeah, going way back to nwa. >> yeah, nwa. and talk about, though, what was so moving about his speech. >> because, i think that ice cube -- i love the fact that it says renaissance man there on the clip, because when some people think of ice cube, i

think they would immediately in their minds jump to "america's most wanted" jump to "nwa," and his music, and depending who you are, the negative aspects of the music, gangsta rap, and when i think of cube, because i grew up listening to the music, but i think of the movies he's done. >> "three kings." out of nowhere. out of nowhere, you see him in "three kings," and you go, okay, this guy is a bona fide actor. >> he has chops. that's the beautiful thing, you never put people in a box. this guy is an example of the american dream to me. he said even on the show to go from getting letters from the fbi to playing the fbi on fi film -- [ laughter ] -- that's a whole -- >> aww. full circle. >> full circle. and he gave a moving speech to his wife. he's been with his wife for 25 years. >> i love that. >> that's an example, to me, of someone who is really living the dream. >> you have some incredible

performer -- performances, aretha franklin. >> a tribute to nelson mandela. >> jennifer hudson. that woman's voice -- >> yeah. >> -- karen clark sheered came up, and i don't care if you like gospel, you believe in god, you don't, when that woman opens her voice, and whatever comes out, you will be in church the next day testifying. >> that's right. >> and smoky was there, too, smokey robinson. >> smokey he is like the black "benjamin button." he ages in reversion. look at him. >> it's unbelievable! i mean, mike, you were actually -- >> look at him. >> were you 55 when smokey first broke with the miracles. >> absolutely. >> look at him. look how young he's looking, mike. >> well, there'll never be another period, i don't think, of music as great as barry gordie, motown. >> oh, my god. >> mid-'60s to mid-'70s. i wanted to talk to you about something other than music.

>> yes, sir. >> because i know, you know, you're in tune with everything that goes on -- >> i try. >> -- okay. so you're born in georgia, raised in florida. i know you have a little something to say about the verdict in the michael dunn case in florida. last week. and it upset you, bothered you. talk about that. >> well, it did bother me. yesterday i was doing press, and even the day before, and i spoke out about it. it bothers me not because i want to make it a racial thing, because even on "the view" yesterday, i said i hate that things come down to race. anyone that knows me knows that my whole thing is, black, white, anything in between, you should just be the best at what you do. it shouldn't boil down to race. but there's certain things that i have to say, okay, this is ridiculous. i am happy that justice was served to a degree. but what i -- but what i was saying is not necessarily that the stand your ground came into play in this case, but in

general. and with trayvon martin, with certain things that have happened in my home state of florida, it does appear to me that the young black man is becoming an endangered species, simply by the fact that there are other people -- not everyone. i'm not saying that every white person is jumping out of a car, going, i'm going to shoot somebody. that's ridiculous. i'm saying there are certain people who will fall back on this law as an excuse, as an excuse, i feel threatened, that guy looks different, i'm going to stand my ground. you're not standing your ground across the street. that's my ground, too. that puts this fear in me that people are going to start using that as an example. it's too open-ended, that there's -- that there's too much interpretation that one person could say, oh, yeah, i felt threatened, so i shot him. and in this case, he didn't necessarily quote that law, but you felt so threatened that you shot ten times, that all of this stuff happened, you shot ten

times? and over the music. it just makes me sad. and it makes me frightened. it's not a good thing for the u.s. and that's my point. >> wayne, real quickly, we're learning some of the facts, some of the jurors are speaking out. we only know what the facts were presented in that courtroom. but from the facts of what you know, that's why you're saying you're upset. you don't want to look at this from a racial angle, but from a factual angle. >> factual viewpoint. just from a factual viewpoint, and i know people will tweet, what are you talking about? well, i know what i know. factually, this thing started over the music being too loud. a, you know -- i don't know like it when people plays their music loud, rap or otherwise, next to me, but it's america. you're in your car. and i'm in mine. so i'll just turn mine up to drown you out. or guess what? i'll drive around the corner. it's not worth taking that extra step. and then -- and then for it to escalate to the point that you

fired "x" amount of bullets into this car, you felt that threatened. and then, the forensic evidence, and you tell me if i'm wrong, speaking out of turn, didn't support the statements that he made. >> correct, the defendant. there wasn't a weapon in the other vehicle. >> oh, and a dragon came out, and there was a unicorn behind him and three leprechauns firing ninja darts. well, at that point, that's what you're saying. some kid lost his life behind that. that's my whole point, it's too easy for someone to lose their life now behind, oh, i felt threatened. >> i don't know about the ninja darts or the unicorns, i don't even know about the stand your ground law, because it did apply here, from what i understand. >> right. >> but i do just want people to ask the counterfactual. what if a black man got out of his car, fired ten times into a car filled with white teenagers, and killed a white young man? >> yeah. >> do you think we would have had a mistrial? and i'm making no statement here. i made statements in trayvon and

people get really angry with me about it. just ask yourself that question. >> folks are going to get angry regardless. people are going to get angry right now. if that would have happened, you wouldn't be talking to me. >> yeah. you know why? nobody would talk about it, because there wouldn't be a mistrial. >> there wouldn't be a story. >> exactly right. >> the "b.e.t. honors" will air this coming monday. >> congratulations on that, by the way! >> oh, thanks, man. >> tell me about mariah carey's outfit. >> she had an outfit that showed off all of her assets. >> talents. >> it put all of her talent up front. >> more than usual, wayne? more than usual? >> hour how about more than what you did with the baby oil? >> well, my boys were on prominent display. but her outfit is doing exactly what she wanted it to. you and i are on this show talking about her outfit. and when the show airs, people are going to be talking about her outfit even more. so it's a win. it's show business. >> she's outgoing. >> wayne brady.

>> she's outgoing. she loves expressing herself. >> she expressed both of them -- selves. coming up, unexpected turbulence causes a major scare in the air and sends one flight attendant in the hospital. the danger lurking every time you fly. coming up next on "morning joe." [ doctor ] and in a clinical trial versus lipitor,

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the up all-nighters. and the ones who turn ideas into action. we've made our passions our life's work. we strive for the moments where we can say, "i did it!" ♪ we are entrepreneurs who started it all... with a signature. legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. and we're here to help start yours. welcome back, everybody. wanted to update you on a story we brought you yesterday. passengers were injured aboard a united airlines flight when turbulence seemingly comes out of nowhere. toms cou costello reports how c these incidents may be. >> reporter: it was a violent, terrifying end to a routine flight. in just seconds, five people were injured, including a flight

attendant with a serious head injury. >> is bleeding pretty badly and they can't get it to stop. >> reporter: it happened at 34,000 feet over montana. united flight 1676 was nearing the end of its flight from denver to billings when without warning the plane began to shape, then a sudden drop to the right. amid screaming, flight attendants and passengers were thrown about the cabin. a baby being held by its parents was thrown over several rows of seats landing safely on another passenger's lap. >> all of a sudden, they're screaming that they can't find their baby, and she had flown across the aisle. there was wallets everywhere and eyeglasses and ipads, and everything, it looked like a tornado had come through there. >> and it felt like we were going down. you know, that was -- it was just going to be my last moments. >> reporter: it came out of nowhere, just a few minutes earlier this photo of a tranquil sky. clear air turbulence is up-and-down wave-like motion, or

rolls, created by atmospheric pressure, jet streams, hot or cold pockets, and over the mountains, mountain wave turbulence that can bring 1,000 foot drop. >> turbulence like this is difficult to forecast. you have to forecast an wind shear in a layer, and sometimes it does come as a surprise. >> reporter: the faa reports 30 to 50 people are injured each year in turbulence. among the most vulnerable, flight attendants. >> if you're actually in the middle of the cabin and it comes, and you immediately hit your head, it's really frankly too late. >> reporter: it's why they warn keep your seat belts buckled. >> good advice. tom costello reporting. we'll be back with more of "morning joe" right after this. , especially if you're thinking of moving an old 401(k) to a fidelity ira. it gives you a wide range of investment options... and the free help you need to make sure your investments fit your goals -- and what you're really investing for.

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♪ when i got "late night," you gave me great advice. you said this job is a pope job. >> it's a pope job. [ mimicking jerry seinfeld ] you choose when you want to quit. it's a pope job! it's a pope job! [ laughter and applause ] >> i think you do the best impression of me. you really do. i don't think i go up that high. >> you don't. >> you're doing me from the '80s. >> but, but you rise to the occasion. and i come out, and you start doing that. and you started raising your voice higher when i do you. >> okay. [ mimicking jerry seinfeld ] >> they feed off each other.

it's great. look at that. sochi, almost 6:00 p.m. really pretty shot there. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? [ male announcer ] are you so stuffed up, you feel like you're underwater? try zyrtec-d® to powerfully clear your blocked nose and relieve your other allergy symptoms... so you can breathe easier all day. zyrtec-d®. find it at the pharmacy counter.

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joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. it's just common sense. phone: your account is already paid in full. oh, well in that case, back to vacation mode. ♪boots and pants and boots and pants♪ ♪and boots and pants and boots and pants♪ ♪and boots and pants... voice-enabled bill pay. just a tap away on the geico app. ♪ huh, 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance. yup, everybody knows that. well, did you know that some owls aren't that wise.

don't forget about i'm having brunch with meagan tomorrow. who? seriously, you met her like three times. who? geico. great. this is the last thing i need.) seriously? the last thing you need is some guy giving you a new catalytic converter when all you got is a loose gas cap. what? it is that simple sometimes. thanks. now let's take this puppy over to midas and get you some of the good 'ol midas touch. hey you know what? i'll drive! and i have no feet... i really didn't think this through. trust the midas touch. for brakes, tires, oil, everything. (whistling) welcome back, kids. it's time to talk about what we learned today. thomas, what did you learn? >> i look at good as kate upton in zero g. i did zero g. >> what's that? >> what? >> yes, kate upton.

i did this years ago. >> oh, wow. >> double-stick tape, baby. it will get you through anything. >> oh, okay. >> wow. >> i didn't do zero g. i think i look okay. no, more to raising the minimum wage than raising it. and this will be a national debate, and we need to have it. >> roger has a terrific piece in this week's "new yorker" about i got waylaid by reading this. >> yeah, great "new yorker." and you are talking about "new yorker"? >> what did you learn, mika? >> never put your fingers in your hot pocket. >> whoa. >> that's a lesson. >> damn! boom! >> i saw eddie murphy do that one time in a movie, boom! [ laughter ] >> it's "morning joe." i got nothing else to say.

the highest score ever recorded! >> meryl davis and charlie white are olympic champions! ♪ the sunset illuminates sochi olympic park. >> at noon eastern here on msnbc we will have men's hockey. today is semifinal day