it is all wall street theory and bidding. congressman, good to have you with us from wisconsin. that's the ed show. politics nation with reverend al sharpton starts now. >> thanks to you for tuning in. tonight's lead, breaking her silence. juror four in the michael dunn murder trial speaks out in an interview last night on abc's "night line". valerie takes us inside the jury room during more than 30 hours of deliberations that led to a hung jury on the first degree murder charge. in a confession she said she felt michael dunn got away with murder. >> do you think michael dunn got away with murder? >> at this point, i do, myself, personally, yes. >> when you went to the

deliberating room you thought michael dunn was guilty? >> yes, sir. >> of killing a 17-year-old boy. >> what convinced you? >> to me it was unnecessary. >> not everyone on the jury agreed with her. and she revealed why. >> you all first took your first poll on guilt or innocence on the murder of jordan davis. what was your vote? >> 10-2. >> so two said self defense. so as we expected it came down to self-defense. the controversial stand your ground law that says you have no duty to retreat if you feel threatened and you can use deadly force. michael dunn said he was in fear and that he saw a gun. no gun was ever found.

it was his word against everyone else's that he felt he was threatened. juror four also had a message for the parents of jordan davis. >> i would say i am sorry, of course. nothing will bring back their son. i hope that they feel that we didn't do them a disservice. >> back with us tonight, florida criminal defense lawyer and former prosecutor faith jenkins. thanks again for being here. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> ken, give me your reaction to juror four going public. >> this is fantastic news that we finally have insight into what was going on in that jury room. i believe that this juror gave us important information. we know that the self-defense instruction is confusing. we know the stand your ground embedded makes it more confusing.

this juror confirms that the evidence was so strong that self-defense really did not apply here and it was a very, very strong murder case, that two jurors still latched on and found that self-defense was something that would hang them up or cause them to vote not guilty. it tells met that we must redouble our efforts to change this law and to take out the stand your ground law in florida. it also gives prosecutors an opportunity to strengthen their case in the re-trial of mr. dunn. >> your reaction? >> when i heard her comments and analysis of michael dunn testimony i thought she watched the same trial i did. she understood that he did not have credibility and there was no gun and this was not justified. i thought it was interesting how she talked about the vote from the beginning was 10-2. that tells me the state made a

strong case of first degree murder and they should go forward again. they weren't debating the degree. they were debating whether or not it was murder or self defense. so now the state knows going forward especially in jury selection they have to find jurors that are not going to buy into michael dunn's nonsensical story. what surprises me is there were three jurorst that credited his testimony to a certain degree. there was absolutely nothing to corroborate there was a gun in this case besides michael dunn's self-serving testimony. >> wasn't the fact that he could make the statement, there was no corroboration, no evidence, isn't that also indicative of how important this stand your ground law is? because the law basically is if a person says they are threatened and they're acting

reasonably, all of which is based on them. they need cooperation. this is what is so dangerous about it. the juror said a key moment was when dunn's attorney directed jurors to read the self-defense law in his closing statements. >> start with page 25. >> reporter: 235i7b8g reads the use of deadly force is justifiable if michael dunn believes the force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. >> we took a poll. two of us undecided. two for justified and the rest not justified. >> why were the others so convinced that dunn was guilty. >> we believed there was another way out, another option. >> now, page 25, ken, was stand your ground. i mean, she directly said and quoted what he, the defense

attorney for dunn said in his closing argument, start at page 25. so all of this does stand your ground have anything to do with the case? the juror said i remember what he told us to do. page 25 which was stand your ground, that was where he directed the jury to go. >> exactly. and the defense attorney used it. he used the stand your ground law and the self-defense law and did a great job with it. the juror remembers him sayingt that. he directed the jury to that page of stand your ground. therefore he made his argument. and a 12 member jury in a first degree murder case you need one, two or three jurors to get a hung jury or not guilty. that is what the defense attorney was doing. so the prosecution in the retrial of this case needs to redouble their efforts to show that mr. dunn is not credible because it's the defendant who reasonably believes he is in

fear and can defend himself. so the prosecution can undermine that reasonable belief. show the jury that they have the power to grant great weight, some weight or no weight at all to mr. dunn's testimony. if they can get the jury to vote no weight therefore no credibility and can come back with the verdict of guilt. >> faith, you said all along throughout the last several nights since saturday's verdict that you don't agree that they should reargue murder one. is that how they do it by going at the credibility of dunn. how do they reargue it more strongly in a retrial if, in fact, they decide to do that, try murder one again. >> i think now we heard the juror speak out it is more of an incentive to go back with murder one because the evidence was so strong. when you have a jury of 12 and

you come back and know there was a vote of ten to convict you know you put on a really strong case. so they need to go back. there are obviously some guidance they can take. they can use the same evidence. the facts and evidence is on their side. i think this case was won or lost in jury selection. there was a hung jury because there were three jurors for whatever reason bought into dunn's story. i think it takes a certain mindset to believe and credit what he said, given the fact that they were able to overlook that he fled the scene and that he called the police and his story in general. so i think you have to do a better job of betting jurors from the beginning and talk about the implicit biases that people bring into the room because i think that had to play a role in the fact that the jurors believed he was justified. >> now, the juror spoke about the testimony of michael dunn's

fiance. here is what she said. that was a big deal for me because he testified he wouldn't say or use the words thug. but he said he wood use the words rap crap. however, in his interview he did say thug a few times. she is talking about the interview with the police. so it was a big deal to her that the fiance said he referred to them as thugs. he said he didn't use that language. she saw he had used that language with the police. so in this case they were paying attention. >> absolutely. she was listening and indicated that that was part of the discussions in the back. we really can feel good in the fact that these people took their job very seriously back there and they -- i heard there was yelling and screaming amongest the jurors.

we know there was a lot of passion. the prosecution and the defense are going to glean whatever they can from these comments and try to tweak their cases in the next retrial of mr. dunn. >> talking about screaming and arguing in the jury room we will get to that and more next. thank you for your time this evening. coming up, we go inside the jury room. what happened in the 30 hours behind closed doors? and developing news, two key figures in the christie investigation refuse to hand over documents. tonight the committee investigating is getting tough. we are live with a committee member. plus, why is gop embracing a rock star who called the president of the united states a subhuman mongrel? stay with us. ♪

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we have more dramatic details from inside the michael dunn jury room. why were jurors screaming and yelling at each other? ed talk at and 10 gigs of data to share for 160 a month? yep. at&t's new family pricing. that's 100 bucks cheaper than us. i know. are you guys with verizon? what makes you think that? oh. just her nametag. and i see you guys at the food court every day. can we go back now? yeah. [ male announcer ] introducing our best-ever pricing for families. 10 gigs of data to share. unlimited talk and text. and 4 lines for $160 a month. only from at&t. and 4 lines for $160 a month. so ally bank really has no hthat's right, no hidden fees.s? it's just that i'm worried about, you know, "hidden things." ok, why's that? well uhhh... surprise!!!

um... well, it's true. at ally there are no hidden fees. not one. that's nice. no hidden fees, no worries. ally bank. your money needs an ally. in an interview with "night line" juror number four, valerie, revealed she thought michael dunn was guilty.

after 30 hours three jurors believed dunn acted in self-defense. that means nine thought he was guilty. what happened inside the jury room? >> there were reports that there was yelling heard coming from the deliberation room. >> at at one point we were all trying to get the point across. >> screaming? people passionate about their position. >> yes, sir. >> tempers, cursing, screaming. the majority who thought michael dunn was guilty couldn't convince three of their fellow jurors. what swayed those jurors and how might this effect the retrial. back with me is faith jenkins. joining us now is dr. marshall, a nationally recognized trial and jury consultant. thank you for being here. >> appreciate it. thank you for having me. >> why couldn't a majority c

convince those holdouts? >> anytime you have a case that is hotly debated and you have a situation such as this case that has had national exposure, you have going to have tempers flare. and that's basically that there was a lot of passion going on in that room where tempers were flaring and could not reach a consensus in terms of that individual. it's not unusual. >> you said in an interview about jury selection. are you inferring that maybe some people came in with the preascribed notion that they stuck to, this was where their head was and they could not be

swayed? >> i do because when you look at michael dunn's testimony and the fact that you have this 17-year-old teenager, high school student, no criminal history, no history of violence and all of a sudden at this moment he is a shotgun wielding threatening thug and gangster. in order for you to believe his story that is what you have to believe about jordan davis. and in order for you to believe that some people had to come in with pre-conceived ideas that jordan davis couldn't be a victim, because of who he is, he was the initial aggressor. they could not get past that. i think the jurors identified with michael dunn despite the evidence showing he fled the scene. they could not identify with jordan davis. >> let me go to gordon davis's

parents. they reacted to this interview. watch this. >> absolutely with all of our hearts that they did everything that they could to come to what they believe was the most just decision. >> well, you have the stand your ground instruction, even though the defense, they don't actually file for stand your ground. and that confuses juries. these people are torn because of the jury instruction. i believe the facts to everybody in the world showt that this guy had indifference towards my son and just killed him. >> clearly you get from that the father saying the instructions, stand your ground, made the difference, in his opinion. >> and the father may be correct. it was a recent poll done by pbs

which showed the way in which they interpret the stand your ground rule. what i specifically mean by that is that in the study they show that blacks are very cognizant of the fact that if they were to kill a white person in self-defense that law would not be able to support their actions. whereas, if whites were to kill a black in self-defense then the law would actually be applied to help their case. so therefore you have two different mind sets in terms of the interpretation of the law and the problem is that the law is not dispersed evenly. and there in lies the conflict with respect to the stand your ground law.

>> you're shaking your head. we don't know if the two or three jurors were black or white because there were two blacks on the jury. >> the issue is reasonable fear and putting the onus on the jury to determine if the person was in reasonable fear. you bring your life experiences into the courtroom with you. one person can look at jordan davis in this situation and hear michael dunn's testimony and say i can understand why michael dunn was in reasonable fear, a group of black kids in a car listening to loud rap music, i would be scared. and then another juror can think something totally different. we don't want laws like stand your ground because we don't want to give people the power on the street to decide that they are in reasonable fear for their lives in that moment, making them the final judge, jury and executioner int that moment and taking that back to the jury and saying is this person in reasonable fear?

we want you to make that determination, as well. >> that is the problem with the law. it's not just bringing your life experiences, because you can have blacks that have been in high crime areas who also feel that a person has to defend himself. i think the law cannot be set up to where you cannot make objective analysis. and this law is set up where they are saying do what you think is reasonable and anyone in the world can decide reasonable differently from everyone else in the world. that is a dangerous law. >> that is a dangerous law. also, there are no equal protection under the law. that is the problem with the way the law is set up is that the law is not enforced the same way it is for blacks as it is for whites. >> you had in the george zimmerman case, one of the jurors in that trial who said she fought for conviction. listen to this.

>> i'm thinking to myself, did i go to right way or wrong way? i went the right way because the law. if i would have used my heart i probably would have went hung jury. >> some people have said george zimmerman got away with murder. how do you respond to those people who say that? >> george zimmerman got away with murder, but you can't get away from god. and at the end of the day he's going to have a lot of questions and answers he has to deal with. >> so here you have a juror from the zimmerman trial again saying about the law and she fought for a conviction that ended up voting acquittal. all of them voted acquittal.

this is what happened in the jury room. dealing with the law is this tension in the jury room. >> these are very serious cases. what you don't want to happen is what we are seeing here which is a pattern and a formula emerge withstand your ground where a person can say i was in fear for my life. and when you say young black male on the other side and he reached for my gun or had a gun although there is no evidence to support that and make sure you understand saying they are going to kill me. when the other person is dead they are not there to tell their side of the story. >> nobody saw a gun. nobody said there was a gun. his girlfriend, who was with him, the defendant, never brought it up. >> there were convictions for those three other young men.

>> it is a lot to try and believe when there is nothing there. faith jenkins, i'm going to have to leave it there. thank you both for your time. still ahead the parents of jordan davis talking about how they define justice for their son. plus, a legal show down in the chris christie bridge scandal. investigators want a judge to force two key players to turn over documents. we'll talk live to a lawmaker on the panel leading that fight. also, why are so many republican leaders embracing extreme rhetoric of ted nugent? stay with us. [ sniffles, coughs ] shhhh!

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who's thoroughly vetted at letsmakeaplan.org. cfp -- work with the highest standard. developing news in the chris christie bridge scandal. lawmakers leading the investigation have dramatically raised the stakes in a legal show down with two key former christie aides. bridget kelly and bill step yn have refused to comply with subpoenas demanding they hand over documents relating to the scandal. late today the investigating committee asked a state court to order them to produce the material. they argue bridgett kelly possesses information that could be critical. quote, as the person who authored the e-mail stating that it was time for some traffic

problems in fort lee, ms. kelly certainly has relevant information. they were two of christie's closest aides. he fired them both as the scandal exploded. they haven't spoken publicly and they refuse to cooperate. now lawmakers are taking them to court. joining me now is a member of the select committee investigating the scandal and the washington post's jonathan capart. thank you for being here tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> assembly woman, tell me about today's filing. >> well, we tried to get this information without having to go to court but this information is very jermaine to our finding the answers to the issue of the who, what, when, where, why and how of this incident.

without getting the cooperation outside of the court we asked our attorney to file the papers. he did. and now it is before the judicial system. it will have to play out there. it is unfortunate. it will add more time to it. but everyone needs to know that this committee is serious. we take this very, very serious. this is not lightly done. and so if we believe these are jermaine issues and that these subpoenas are important to exploring the answers to these questions that is what we eare going to do. >> if they don't comply then what happens next? >> i'm not a lawyer, reverend. sometimes i wish i were. i'm not a lawyer. i will be in wait and see like everybody else. i'm sure that there is a hierarchy in the judicial system that will more than likely be available to address the issue if we need to go further. >> jonathan, you have been following and writing about this

scandal from the beginning. this new development of the commit ee -- committee taking to key players to court, how does that strike you and what does it do in terms of how the public perceives this on going scandal? >> to my mind it shows that as the assembly woman was just saying the legislative committee is very, very serious about getting to the bottom of what happened in fort lee. what we are seeing here, though, is a tension between the state legislative committee and the u.s. attorney. we can't forget that there are two investigations going on here, the state and the feds. and to my mind i wonder if bridgett kelly, david wildstein and anyone else high up and implicated in this are hedging bets trying to work out a deal with the feds and therefore not cooperating as fully as assembly

woman would like them to, cooperating fully with the state legislative committee. >> today the chairman of the port authority, he made his first public remarks since the scandal broke. listen to this. >> i cannot allow this agency to be mischaracterized by the actions of few individuals when the day to day work of so many including this board is so important. on behalf of the board of commissioners, we are deeply sorry for inconvenience caused to our valtravelers. >> he is facing a subpoena from your committee. what is your response? >> i have to wonder whether or not he used the same speech writer who prepared the governor for his response. it seems that everybody in position to make decisions and

have the kind of power they think they have and say they have, it is easily and quickly pushing it down to the little man at the end of the totem pole. everybody knows the little man at the end of the totem pole could not have started this or conceived this and could only be the foot soldier in this scenario. i think that is a way of blaming somebody else. >> now, jonathan, interesting article reporting that port authority police told commuters that the traffic was the fort lee mayor's fault. quote, as motorists slowly road towards the bridge's toll booth many asked police what was causing so much congestion. aggravated motorists were told by port authority police officers at the scene that they should call the mayor. was this a larger operation as

port authority chairman described it? >> yeah. this sounds like something that is a whole lot bigger than a few rogue people within the governor's office and within the port authority. as we have seen as time goes on, new names come forward, new names of people who we haven't heard about or knew of at the beginning of this are coming to light and showing how wide spread this could have gone. the one thing about bridget kelly's text message that has always stuck with me when she said time for traffic problems in fort lee and the response back was got it. that got it speaks thought had gone into this. anyone who would get a text message or e-mail like that and responding got it must know what the plan is, what the plans are and how to execute them. if you are going to try to pull

off something this big it is not just two people over e-mail. you will have to have more than a few people and trusted people from their perspective to pull this off. >> i want to talk about the role of port authority police lieutenant chip michaels. he has a close personal tie with the governor and apparently gave david wildstein a tour of the traffic jam. the waul street ju"wall street today text message sent by chip michaels asking to reroute local traffics towards the closure. this might have made the traffic jam even worse. does your committee want to learn more about chip michael's role in this matter? >> yeah, here is a new actor in this whole scenario. it seems as we look we see more and more and more. you keep trying to peel back the

lettuce looking for good lettuce. his role seems to be evolving. we seem to be learning more and more and more. absolutely we will need to have a discussion about the relevancy of having him and give us information. but, reverend, let me say one thing about what jonathan said. just like wildstein's response to bridget kelly's e-mail suggested there had to be prior discussion, just her sending the e-mail saying it is time for some traffic flare up or whatever on the george washington bridge strongly suggests this didn't just start that day. this went back. we need to go back as far as we have to go to get to the beginning of this. >> let me go back to chip michaels again, the police lieutenant. i want to say that the governor christie's spokesperson says the

governor has not spoken to chip or his brother about the matter. quote, the governor has never had any conversations with either jeff or chip hikeles mic this topic. does your committee intend to subpoena chip? >> we haven't had a meeting since this evolved. i believe the co-chairs of the committee said they are interested in getting more information as it relates to chip kelly and his role here. i would assume we are going to do that but we can't speak to that as assurity. >> thank you both for your time tonight. >> thank you for having me. ahead, the gop's ted nudgen problem. ♪ ♪

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the republican party has a problem and his name is ted nugent. listen to the way the rocker recently described president obama. >> i have obviously failed to galvinize and prod if not shame enough americans to be ever vigilant not to let a chicago

communist-raised, communist-educated, communist-nurtured subhuman mongrel like the a corn community organizer gangster barack obama to weasel his way into the top office of authority of the united states of america. >> subhuman mongrel? that's disgusting. that is no way to talk about anybody, much less the president of the united states. why should we care what ted nugent thinks? well, because republicans care. this is the type of man some party leaders are embracing. right now the texas attorney general greg abbott is using ted nugent supporting his campaign for governor. they appeared at a campaign eevent just yesterday and abbottt actually praise him. >> thank you, ted nugent, a fighter for freedom in this

country. >> so the man who called our president a subhuman mongrel is a fighter for freedom. too many republicans are embracing it. nugent was also a prominent backup of current texas governor rick perry. in fact, nugent even performed at the governor's inaugural ball wearing a confederate flag t shirt. even mitt romney sought on nugent's endorsement. he wanted support from a man who went on to say this. >> if barack obama becomes the president in november again i will either be dead or in jail by this time next year. >> the secret service paid nugent a visit after that to see if he posed a threat of any kind. t that didn't stop a republican

congressman from inviting nugent to the state of the union just two months later. so, no, we shouldn't care about ted nugent. what we should care about the stunning lack of judgment and lack of leadership shown by these politicians who want ted nugent to help them win votes. joining me now is karen finney and wayne slater, senior political writer, dallas morning news. thank you for coming on the show. >> thanks. >> karen, what does it say about some gop leaders that they continually cozy up with the man who calls the president a subhuman mongrel and other things? i'm talking about these things now. >> right. you don't have to go back that far. i think what it says is that there is a comfort level with

that kind of language and that kind of hatred because they recognize he has an audience, a base of supporters. one of the articles said when they announce that nugent was coming their numbers increase. clearly there is a political reason that they don't feel the need to disassociate themselves with ted nugent. i think the problem becomes how you say a man like that stands up for liberty and freedom and then make an argument to the whole state of texas that you will represent the interests of every single person when that is the kind of hatred that you are supporting. >> the attorney general in texas there and candidate for governor, he defended campaigning with nugent. listen to what he said. >> wendy davis is more associated with barack obama than anybody in the state. i don't think there is anybody in the state who is disliked more than barack obama.

if there is this effect by relationship that they want to trump up then that is of detriment of the davis campaign because of the ties to barack obama. >> help me out here, wayne, is he insinuating that ted nugent and president obama are the same thing? >> he is insinuating that in one regard. that is kind of troubling, you have to say, and that is to suggest that barack obama is more disliked in texas than ted nugent. and you would rather be associated with nugent than be associated with obama. let's assumet that is true for a moment at least in the context that he gave. what that does say is there is a conconstituency in the republican party that believes that they like the things that ted cruz has said and willing to look out and look over those

because of his support of the second amendment compared to barack obama. if that is true, who are these voters? what is it that they want? how does that reflect on the texas constituencies who say this is what we think voters are all about in texas? it is as karen said a political calculation from greg abbott trying to make an appeal and to excite the far right of the republican party in order to win now and in november. >> going back to that point, karen, the fact is if the president was as unpopular or more unpopular than ted nugent in texas they certainly aren't unpopular for the same reasons. so clearly it is a statement about a candidate that would stand with nugent and what nugent has said and therefore represents than in wendy davis

standing with the president who may be controversial because they disagree with him on policies like affordable health care, minimum wage, not because he says such unbelievably offensive things. >> it says the abbott campaign is willing to run on hate. andt that is dangerous. as an american we should all be offended by that. this is a country that is about -- we are supposed to be one country. it is one thing to disagree. you may not like the president. you may not like his policies. talk about that. this language about mongrels and other horrible things he said about the president, not just the president -- he is a pretty equal opportunity offender, but particularly talking about the president of the united states of america there needs to be some level of respect. some try to say democrats talk like that, too, sometimes. not to this degree and not when

we are talking about campaigning on hate. >> greg abbott and rick perry are not the only republicans cozy with rocker. listen to what nugent said last year. >> i work close with ted cruz who is a great patriot, a great statesman. i worked close with scott walker's team in wisconsin. i worked with different sheriffs and different attorney generals. i work closely with greg abbottt and governor perry in texas. >> he seems to have a good relationship with several very prominent republicans according to him. wayne? >> yeah. i think he certainly believes that. and frankly that may be true in some cases. i go back to the idea that who are these voters you are trying to appeal to? as karen says these are the voters who energized by hate and by rather despicable things, not just that he called the president a mongrel which has

racial, ethnic and historical ancedents that are very dark but called women leaders fat pigs. these are the kinds of things that i have to say won't appeal to a majority of voters in the fall and raise questions about whether suburban women, moderates, independent and maybe republican leaning women might say let's take a look at wendy davis because of the company that greg abbott keeps. >> all of this negative talk has hurt the republican party. just 25% of americans identify as republicans. that's the lowest number in the last 25 years. >> that's right. we are also seeing numbers that suggestt that increasingly on issues even moderate republicans feel the republican party doesn't represent their values and what they think. so certainly you would think to your opening that there would be some consciousness within the

republican party that campaigning with a person who is endorsing hate and campaigning on hate is probably not a good strategy if you are trying to make an appeal to the broader united states of america. >> karen finney -- >> reverend, one quick thing. remember today sarah palin said if ted nugent is good for greg abbott i like greg abbott. there is a conconstituency there. >> there is no better indicator than having her make that statement. thank you both for coming on the show tonight. and watch "disrupt" with karen finney weekends at the 4:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. still ahead, how the parents of jordan davis plan to honor his memory and turn their grief into action. for 160 a month? yep. at&t's new family pricing. that's 100 bucks cheaper than us. i know. are you guys with verizon? what makes you think that?

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the parents of jordan davis has impressed all of us with their grace and dignity in the months since their son's death. in these past few days since the verdict they have continued to impress us. now they are trying to turn their grief into action, a positive force for good. that's next. ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!" could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance.

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to turn their loss into a positive force for good. >> justice for jordan will be ultimately really when we change the laws. that will be justice for all the children at sunday hook and justice for virginia tech and navy yard, justice for everyone that has suffered because of the laws. >> i'm in constant contact with tracy martin, trayvon's father. i want to let them know that every time i think justice for jordan it is justice for trayvon for us. >> justice for jordan, justice for trayvon, sandy hook, virginia tech, for all the victims of senseless and preventable gun violence in this country. that is why we fight. and that is why we need change.

these parents lost the most valuable thing in their life, their children. we can never give them their children back. but we can give meaning to their children's loss and we can protect other parents from losing children too. >> thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. policing the bridge. let's play "hardball". good evening. let me