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crowds in kiev are calling for resignation. good afternoon. i'm milissa rehberger in for craig melvin. you're watching msnbc. the situation is at a stalemate of sorts in ukraine. we'll talk with richard engel who is there on the ground in just a moment. if you're a leader, you have to try to get a handle on the story and then take decisive action. >> chris christie is in d.c., along with the nation's governors. but the one-time gop star is now shunning the spotlight. he's truly just america's kid. he's a great kid, that he wasn't a gangster and he wasn't a thug. >> the father of jordan davis one week after a jury deadlocked on the murder charge for the man who killed his son. we'll talk with one of those jurors this hour. plus, breaking ground. history-making, heart-pumping action. but where will michael sam land in the nfl? we're hearing from the man himself this hour. and on this last full day of competition in sochi, we'll talk to one of the most infamous olympians ever. nancy kerrigan weighs in on the

figure skating scoring scandal. but we begin with breaking news. u.s. and mexican authorities have arresteded the head of one of mexico's most notorious drug cartels. joaquin el chapo guzman was arrested overnight at a mexican beach resort. mark potter joins us from miami. mark, just who is guzman and what can you tell us about the arrest? >> reporter: guzman is considered by most to be the most powerful drug trafficker in the world, the most sought-after drug trafficker in the world. now he's been arrested. so that arrest is being celebrated by folks at the d.e.a. and in mexico who have been chasing him ever since 2001 when he had been arrested and then escaped from a maximum security prison in a laundry truck. he then rose to become the head of the notorious sinaloa drug cartel, the biggest drug cartel in mexico responsible for hundreds of tons of marijuana coming into the u.s. every year, along with methamphetamine,

cocaine and heroin. so his arrest is seen as the equivalent of the arrest of pablo escobar back in the day in clo colombia and even osama bin laden. what we know is from a senior law enforcement official that he was picked up overnight at a resort or at a hotel or condominium in mazatlan. he was with an unidentified woman. the arrest went off without incident. there was no resistance, no shots fired. he was taken alive and is now in custody. we're told that this was the result of a three to four-week investigation by the d.e.a. working in collaboration with the mexican marines with whom they have worked on a number of arrests, captures and killings of mexican authorities. it's an organization they trust very much and they worked with them again on this one. guzman is a storied figure in mexico.

songs have been written about him. people talk about him all the time. he is widely believed to be protected at all levels in mexico. so this capture is making huge news in mexico. it's being talked about by the mexican president today and again celebrated by drug agents around the world because he was that big. >> how hopeful are drug authorities in how this will affect the flow of drugs into the united states. >> reporter: a couple of different opinions on that. some people think it won't make a big difference because there are other people who will take over the cartel. but that cartel has been wounded and guzman was a big figure. that was his cartel. so some think this could have an impact of at least slowing down the cartel for quite some time as it tries to regroup and that we can see drops in methamphetamine and heroin trafficking across the border into the united states for a while as people try to figure out what to do now that he has been taken out. he was a very, very powerful

figure. he had his finger on the pulse of many things in mexico. and for him to be taken out, many people believe will have an impact. it's not going to have a fatal impact. but it will be felt. his arrest will be felt at many levels. >> nbc's mark potter, thank you. now to the breaking news out of europe. a situation changing by the hour. in about the time it takes to ship a package from new york to california, anti-government protesters in ukraine have taken over kiev's main square, seized control of the president's office and today begun the formation of a new and very fragile government. one week of unofficial war and this morning opposition protesters are calmly restoring a new kind of order. they began the revolution three months ago. but the real work happened in just days. ukraine's president who's been m.i.a., appeared in a tv interview calling the revolution a coup, comparing it to the nazi invasion of germany. there are conflicting reports about whether or not he is resigning. we know president vick to

yanukovychviktor yanukovych and his compound have been seized. richard, is it too early to say the president's regime has been toppled? >> reporter: i think it's fair to say a revolution has taken place and that they are 70% there. the capital is now in the hands of the protesters. the government buildings are in the hands of the protesters. the presidential offices are occupied by demonstrators. the police, all of the interior ministry forces, have firmly come out in a statement saying they are with the people. the army saying it will not get involved. the president's had to flee the capital city. parliament has taken over. this has been effectively a parliamentary coup. and the legislative branch has ousted the executive branch. and all day, parliament has been meeting, broadcasting their processions on loudspeakers and

passing law after law. and to answer your initial question, the laws that they are passing, which would normally require presidential approval, are being implemented. for example, they passed a law to release yulia tymoshenko who was a main rival of the president. she has been released. she is back in kiev and expected to address protesters any minute. >> nbc's richard engel on the phone from kiev, thank you very much. to sochi now where on this the final day of olympics, team usa is having a rough afternoon. your spoiler alert right now. we have gotten mention some big news. if you'd rather hear final standings now, here is your chance to turn down your sound for just a moment. the u.s. men's hockey team had one chance to medal. but in the bid for bronze against finland, the u.s. came up way short losing 5-0. nbc's brian shactman is live in sochi. brian, the u.s. had looked so good at the start of the

tournament. >> reporter: i know. >> what happened on the ice today? >> reporter: milissa, they go 3-0 in the preliminary round. they were the hottest team in the tournament. and in 24 hours, they lose to canada 1-0. and if you watched the game, it wasn't even that close. they just didn't get a lot of chances. today, they had two breakaways given to them for patrick kane. they didn't get. they went down 2-0. in the third period, they got one good bounce and it's a tight game. and they just imploded and let the game get away from them. so it's 5-0. the truth is, they were so disappointed with the result against canada -- it's very difficult to come back the next day and play. whereas finland, they were excited about the chance to get a bronze medal. this is a team that knocked off russia. had a lot of momentum. if they have their starting goalie in their semifinal game against sweden, they might have even won that game. they were in a different mindset. they really went after bronze

whereas the u.s. was still dealing with the disappointment of losing to canada and eventually that sentiment difference really seemed to take hold. by the end of the game, the u.s. was just floundering. it was very difficult to watch them compared to what they looked like a week and a half ago. >> nbc's brian shactman in sochi. thank you. it was a day that will live in figure skating infamy. on january 6th, 1994, olympic figure skater nancy kerrigan was attacked at the practice rounds for the u.s. figure skating championships. the tacker was linked to skating competitor tonya harding's ex-husband. harding herself ultimately pleaded guilty to conspiracy. the u.s. skating governing organization determined that harding knew of the attack in advance and banned her from competition for life. a new documentary airing tomorrow examines that case. >> though she missed nationals, it appeared kerrigan would have

time to recover in time for the olympics. three days after the olympics, she sat next to harding for a photo. >> it just felt strange. always looking for somebody to run out and do what they did to nancy to other people, including myself. >> i had people asking me, do you think she had anything to do with it, you know? and my reaction to that was, that's ridiculous. to me, this had to have been some random act. >> nancy kerrigan came back to win the silver medal in the '94 games. he is in sochi as an analyst for nbc and joins us now. thank you, nancy. you have had an amazing career as a world class figure skater. does it bother you to still have to discuss this incident that happened 20 years ago? >> well, it's not something i think of on a daily basis. but of course as a so-called anniversary which you typically celebrate if it's good, it's a little bit difficult to look

back and analyzing it and going over everything. it was a little hard and challenging. but at the same time, my only involvement was being attacked. more than that, it was my flight back. and that's really what i more look back at and remember on a tough day like, you know what, i'm strong still, i can keep doing this and get through things. that's what i have to remember. >> that is a great way to look t a it. the nbc sports documentary will air tomorrow. given what you said, why did you decide to take part in this effort? is it what you just mentioned? >> well, we've been talking about it for a very long time. and it's not easy. but for all involved, i think it's time -- there's great athletes here. and they're so inspiring and it's time to move on. for tonya and myself, everybody, people should be able to live their life and have another chance to go forward and not have to always be -- go backwards and relive something

so difficult and it would be nice to hopefully after this we can move past it. >> it must be hard though sometimes to look back at these images and not get a little bit angry, though, right? >> well, i don't get angry about it. actually when i look at myself on the ground holding my knee, it's more like, oh -- it's painful when you see anybody. and then i sort of remember, wow, that was me. then i remember how painful it was. but it's more like scary to see anybody go through such pain. >> it was so unexpected. i remember it like it was yesterday. let's look forward at the sochi games where you are today. this year is russia's year. they've won three figure skating gold medals. how disappointing do you think this has been for the u.s. team? >> well, i think the u.s. team, most of them fairly young and some of them have had their best skates ever and they really did perform well. so you have to judging a sport look at what you've done and what you've accomplished and

learn to be happy with that. of course it's difficult not to come home with more medals. we haven't had a guy or a girl on the medal stand both since 1936. so that's a little bit difficult. but we are coming home with olympic gold for the very first time. meryl and charlie in ice dancing. >> that was historic and gorgeous to watch. >> absolutely. >> but it's not without scandal. what do you make of the controversy over the russian skater's win? >> it's so interesting because this is a judged sport still. so if the judges were picked out of the hat, different people, it may have turned out differently. it's still very subjective. they get the plus 1, 2 and p. the judges can make things happen how they want. and there's no accountability now. years ago when they held up the numbers and you got the 6.0, you knew who was giving what mark. now without that accountability, you don't know who's giving what, it seems like -- i don't know.

i think accountability when something is being judged would be better. >> between this and 2002, salt lake city, which had its own figure skating scandal, do you think these two things combined will bring about change? >> well, i don't know. they tried to change it for that and for -- even way back when i skated, there was still the 5-4 split, the eastern and western. it's a judged sport. it's people's opinion. and somebody still -- you want your own to win. but you want the best to win. so i think that's -- in olympics, you want to see the best win. we saw great performances. yu-na kim, i think, is in a league of her own. she didn't do all the triple loops. but at the same time, i still like the elegance and grace. she is so athletic and yet able to carry off this grace at the same time. but i'm an athlete. so i think the athletic side should overtake the artistic

side because we have an afterlife in figure skating that you can continue with that. but i think that nice combination -- look, she was great. that's for sure. she skated better than i think she's ever skated before. but she still looks like a young girl. i would like to see a woman win. i think it would be great for the sport. >> it's always amazing to watch. nancy kerrigan, olympic figure skating medalist and nbc skating analyst in sochi, great to see you. >> thank you. up next, the man who was the brightest star in the gop is keeping a very low profile as the nation's governors meet in d.c. where is chris christie? and later, one of the 12 florida jurors who were deadlocked on the michael dunn murder trial, she says race was never a factor in this case. we will talk with her live. stay with us. ♪ [ chicken caws ] [ male announcer ] when your favorite food starts a fight, fight back fast with tums.

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topping the saturday headlines, in his weekly address, president obama continued to push for congress to raise the minimum wage. >> in the year since i first asked congress to raise the minimum wage, six states have passed laws to raise theirs and more states are working on it as we speak. but only congress can finish the job and lift americans' wages across the country. >> arizona governor jan brewer will have five days to decide whether to sign or veto a bill to allow people to use religious freedom as a defense against lawsuits. hundreds of people gathered friday to protest that bill. they say it will allow businesses to refuse service to gay, lesbian and transgender customers. and some same-sex couples in cook county, illinois, didn't have to wait until june to get married all due to a ruling by a

federal district judge. the county clerk began issuing licenses yesterday keeping the office open until 7:00 p.m. last night. friday's ruling only appears to technically affect marriages in cook county. illinois state law allowing same-sex marriages to go into effect on june 1st. new jersey governor chris christie is keeping a low profile this weekend as the nation's governors meet in washington. christie will attend just one public event. he's skipping a news conference hosted by the republican governors association, the organization which he leads and won't attend a dinner at the white house as questions continue to linger over the role his administration played in the lane closures of the george washington bridge. the governor repeatedly said he had no knowledge or involvement in the lane closures as we were happening. michael aaron is the chief political correspondent for njtv and matt slap joins us. michael, what are we making out

of the low profile that chris christie is keeping this weekend? >> he's the center of scandal. he has not talked to the press in a general way in more than a month. he knows what the questions are going to be thrown at him and he wants to get back to new jersey. it's his daughter's 18th birthday tomorrow. he's coming back for that. he has a big budget message to deliver and a budget crisis on his hands which will help him change the subject. so there's no reason for him to be in the limelight in washington. >> matt, the head of the democratic governors association talked about christie yesterday and said, quote, governor christie may be hiding under a bridge somewhere or stuck in traffic but the fact that he's a liability for the republican governors remains readily apparent this weekend. republicans are defending 22 of the 36 seats up for election this year. so is chris christie a liability? >> well, in the most important factor in answering that question is the amount of money the republican governors

association is raking in. if you look at that number, it's staggering. i think you would have to say that chris christie, his role as chairman of the rga, is doing a good job. and he's smart in the sense that he's under investigation for this bridge scandal and he's keeping a low profile. i think that's also smart. if he gets out of this unscathed, i think you'll see a reemergence of chris christie. i think he'll be out there, he'll be back in d.c. in the first week of march as cpac, the biggest conservative event held annually in d.c. >> matt, $18 million raised for the republican governors association is a record. i believe it's more than mississippi governor haley barbour raised. what does that tell you about his ability to still perform for his party? >> i think he still can perform. he's still a phenomenon and a subject of great curiosity.

he has -- it has to be pointed out, however, that at these fund-raisers that he attends, the gubernatorial candidate tends to stay away in florida, in illinois. this is one of the only pieces of good news he's been able to hang his hat on for the last six weeks is that he raised $6 million for the rga in january, apparently a record. >> they'll take his money but not -- very interesting. matt, the governor held his first town hall meeting since the scandal broke just a couple of days ago. let's take a listen to that. >> good morning. i come out here to this office -- >> let me move on to matt once again. obviously we apologize for not having that. but given that lately we have seen a little bit more of the fighting chris christie that we've seen pre-scandal, are we in fact seeing him reemerge in a way on his own terms?

>> yeah, i think you will see that. he has a big speech to give to conservatives and the republican party in the first week of march at cpac. he's a former u.s. attorney himself. he's going to be careful and thoughtful as these investigations go on. but i think people are making a big mistake if they assume that he's done. if he comes out of those investigations okay, i think he'll continue to deploy the proper p.r. strategy as he has. i think he'll focus on the problems of new jersey and pivot if he is as interested in running for president as it sure appears to be, pivot to having a conversation with republicans across the country about what the republican party needs to do. i think we'll see a lot more of him to come. >> thank you both. >> thank you. slow and steady wins the bill. colorado governor told reporters at the national governors association meeting in d.c. yesterday that states trying to legalize marijuana should proceed with caution. he says he's still not sure

about what the consequences will be and stressed that revenue should not be a factor in legalization. you're watching msnbc. ♪ ♪ ♪ a steel cage: death match of midsize sedans. the volkswagen passat against all comers. turbocharged engines against...engines. best in class rear legroom against other-class legroom. but then we realized. consumers already did that. twice. huh. maybe that's why nobody else showed up. how does one get out of a death cage?

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does breathing with copd weigh you down? don't wait to ask your doctor about spiriva. as we celebrate black history, you may not have heard about grace lee boggs. she was a big part of the black power movement and she is asian american. richard lui spoke with grace lee about her 70 years in civil rights work. >> reporter: two months before martin luther king's washington speech, detroit held the largest civil rights demonstration to date. mich michigan is where king actually gave his first "i have a dream" speech helping to energize activate grace lee bogs. >> all over the state. it was huge. >> reporter: she was well known in midwestern african-american

circles. she had an fbi case file 884 pages long. the world war i baby was married to james bogs. gloria house, professor at the university of michigan, was mentored by boggs in the 1960s. >> where else was she going to go, right? it's not until the '70s that you actually start to have an asian american movement. >> the amount of violence that erupted in our cities after '67, has taught us a lot about how violence does not create something new. >> reporter: as boggs listened to king's call for peaceful progress, she wanted revolution. this is about where dr. king stood 50 years ago when he gave an earlier rendition of his "i have a dream" speech. there's about 10,000 people earnestly listening to him. and like the arena is today, boggs believes that someday detroit will be new again. part of that newness, the james and grace lee bogs elementary school in its first full year. and its principal, julia putnam.

at 16, julia joined one of the boggs' youth community programs. >> she said, what are we going to do about the future of detroit? >> reporter: bogs inspired putnam and two other women to start the detroit school. >> if we begin creating a whole new relationship between elders and youngsters, we'll be doing something very important. >> what was funny about jimmy and grace's dynamic was not the asian american and the black american, it was the way that they fought and struggled with each other. >> reporter: bogs became one of the few prominent women in the civil rights movement and an early icon in feminism. scott co-authored a book with boggs. >> she brought things to the table. and jimmy himself being from the south, being an auto worker, having the deep roots in the black community, it was the combination that made them fight strong and powerful. >> reporter: boggs demands people be thinkers and creators.

as she reaches the century mark, she's doing the same. that fbi file perhaps getting a little bit larger. richard lui, msnbc, detroit. coming up, justice may be blind but many people are still asking a lot of questions about the murder, the verdict in the michael dunn murder trial. next, we'll go inside the jury room. and michael sam says he just wants to be seen as a football player. but how will his possible entrance into the nfl change the game? you're watching msnbc.

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after ten days of political unrest in venezuela, thousands of people took to the streets of caracas to make their voices heard. anti-government protesters called for an end to violence while on the other side of the city, thousands of women in support of the government marched for peace. both sides are mourning supporters killed in the worst turmoil since president maduro won an election last year to replace hugo chavez. back here at home, it was one week ago today the jury in

the michael dunn trial returned its controversial verdicts. dunn shot teenager jordan davis in a dispute that began with an argument over loud music. a mistrial was declared on the murder in the first-degree count. but murder was convicted of three counts of attempted second-degree murder. prosecutors hope to retry dunn on the murder charge. we're hearing from a juror in the case, juror number 8. thank you for joining us. the mistrial on the first count was highly-profile. and . >> i had no way to determine if it was premeditated. >> okay. you had no way of knowing if michael dunn truly planned to murder jordan davis on that day, is that what you're trying to say? >> yes. a lot of people think premeditated murder is go home,

write a plan. but it actually could be within seconds. but there was no way to determine if in seconds he had time to think about what he was doing before he started shooting. >> okay. so you were not convinced of that. of course the case was racially charged. jordan davis' father said on msnbc yesterday that this is clearly a racial incident. let's listen to that. >> within seconds of pulling up to the gas station, michael dunn told his girlfriend before she even got out of the car, i hate that thug music. so already you have already identified the type of music and you've already identified that they're thugs without even speaking to the boys. >> how much of a factor did race play in the jury room? >> actually none at all. race wasn't presented in evidence. so therefore we couldn't use it. >> do you think things could have gone differently if the prosecution had raised race as an issue?

>> it may have or may not have. >> ron davis also said the jury didn't get to hear good things about his son, jordan. let's listen to what he had to say. >> you couldn't put jordan's character on the stand. you couldn't show that he's a family kid, that he's done all these things for the family and that he's truly just america's kid, that he's a great kid, that he wasn't a gangster and he wasn't a thug. >> as a person who was in that jury room, would knowing more about the character of jordan davis have made a difference in your deliberations? >> not in mine just because i took jordan as a good kid. everything that everyone said about him, nothing negative ever came out of anyone that hung out around him mouth. none of the witnesses said any negative things about him. so i never had a negative connotation of jordan davis. >> juror number 8 in the michael

dunn murder trial, thank you for being with us today. >> you're welcome. coming up, his moment in the spotlight. how will michael sam fare in this weekend's nfl combine in the wake of his groundbreaking announcement that he is gay? you're watching msnbc. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ told ya you could do it. (dad vo) i want her to be safe. so, i taught her what i could and got her a subaru. (girl) piece of cake. ♪ (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. [ male announcer ] how did edward jones become one of the biggest financial services companies in the country? hey. yours? not anymore. come on in. [ male announcer ] by meeting you more than halfway. it's how edward jones makes sense of investing. come on in. [ male announcer ] by meeting you more than halfway. damage your hair?g might

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if you have a business idea, we have a personalized legal solution that's right for you. with easy step-by-step guidance, we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. start your business today with legalzoom. this is a live look right now at the opposition crowds in kiev, ukraine. this is ex-prime minister yulia tymoshenko who was just released from custody speaking to the crowd. she just told the crowd she hails them as heroes for centuries. a video game made for players who cannot see. that's today's big idea. blindside is an audio-only game using an iphone or ipad. the game's objective is to teach players to navigate the environment using only audio clues to escape and find out exactly what happened. it gives players who can see a

very unique experience in being blind while giving blind players an accessible game they can enjoy. the co-creators of the game join us. aaron, let's start with you. this is fascinating. it came about through a very scary experience for you. tell us about that. >> yeah, so in high school i mixed two chemicals and was in a very bad accident and was temporarily blinded for a while. the game is about that experience in a lot of ways. >> how did you come up with the -- i understand the idea was originally yours before you joined forces with aaron? >> yeah, michael and i developed the idea a lot. but originally it came from a script i'd written a couple of years before we started on the game about a game that had no graphics and waking up blind and having the rest of the world be blind as well. >> michael, according to the able gamers foundation, there are nearly 33 million gamers who have some kind of a disability.

but it doesn't mean they don't want to play the games. so how do you cater to that kind of audience and how did you create this idea along with your partner? >> well, it was interesting. we had been influenced by a number of other games we had seen. i'd seen a great game at nyu called deep sea by robin arnott. it was an audio-only game, that really inspired us and let us know this type of game was possible. i'd been learning about some development tools in school that was applicable to this and allow us to make the game quickly. by combining those two, we were really able to take and make blindside. >> i want to play a little bit of the audio game right now. let's just take a listen to that very quickly. i want viewers to see how it actually works. >> the window's to the right of the couch. you first. >> i don't even remember what it looks like. >> go, go, go, go, go. >> i am.

>> you okay? everything in one piece? >> i think so. what was that? >> i don't know. we need to get help. >> so, aaron, obviously we're looking at a black screen, which is what all the players see. blind players obviously and the people who can see have to close your eyes and sort of listen to this and make it work through sounds coming from different directions, is that right? >> that's correct. you actually use the iphone and the gyroscopes on the iphone allow you to turn and orient your body in the real world and the virtual world rotates around you in headphones. >> i know in the past, nintendo's hands-free controller goes all the way back to 1998. and the first game for visually

impaired gamers, the same thing. >> one of the exciting things is that as games become more d.i.y. and the tools to make games get more and more into the hands of more people, people who have had personal experiences like aaron's will be more empowered to make these games themselves that are about personal experiences and experiences they've had. >> have you in your experience -- do sighted players -- obviously i read yesterday while i was studying up on this that blind players obviously in this game have the advantage. but people who are closing their eyes and playing this game do catch on fairly quickly. >> they do. we tried very hard to make an identical game play experience for sighted and visually impaired gamers. but through a helpful tutorial we were able to get them playing the game on almost the same level. >> thank you both very much. do you have a big idea that's

making a difference? tell us about it by tweeting us or e-mailing us on the e-mail address that you see on your screen. now it's time for today's flashback. 34 years ago today, it was the miracle on ice when the u.s. men's hockey team beat the soviet union hockey team in lake placid. >> there was no calm then in the streets of lake placid either. >> usa, usa, usa, usa! >> it wasn't a hockey game. it was a miracle. >> the faces of the players themselves, celebrating the miracle, the most important and dramatic victory of their lives, told the story. one person knew just how the players felt. the father of player dave christian, billy christian who played on the u.s. team that beat the russias at squaw valley 20 years ago.

>> i could cry i'm so happy. >> the father of jack o callahan was not going to cry. >> total exhilaration! i knew it when he was 6 it would happen. i just knew. destiny. destiny. >> the soviet embassy on 67th street in manhattan may have been the only place in the united states that was silent last night. silent because of the reminder that hung outside the firehouse directly across the street. you need a bunch of those to clean this mess. then i'll use a bunch of them. then how is that a bargain? [ sighs ] no, that's too many -- it's not gonna fit! whoa! cascade kitchen and math counselor. here's a solution. one pac of cascade complete cleans tough food better than six pacs of the bargain brand combined. so you can tackle tough messes the first time. that is more like it. how are you with taxes? [ laughs ] [ counselor ] and for even more cleaning power, try cascade platinum.

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i just wish you guys will see me as michael sam the football player instead of michael sam the gay football player. >> that was nfl draft prospect michael sam about an hour ago talking to reporters. sam there referencing all the questions he's been getting since announcing that he is gay. sam, like other players in the 2014 draft class, are at the scouting combine in indianapolis right now. like the others, sam will go through a series of drills and

be evaluated on his skill. but unlike the others, he may be evaluated on his sexual orientation as well. joining us now is wade davis, a former nfl player who came out after his playing days. davis is now the executive director of "you can play" project, an advocacy group working to eradicate homophobia in professional sports. many people are predicting michael sam will be drafted in the third round but could the fact that he is gay mean teams might pass on him? >> i think at this point it's going to come down to what is he like for this team as a football player? and teams are going to draft -- i really do believe that they're going to draft him as a good fit for us, can he help us win? those kind of things. i think he made be third or fourth round, maybe fifth round. but it's going to come down to how he performs at the combine.

does he do well? i think he's answered and done very well in answering all the questions about what he would be like as a teammate and as a player. >> wade, since linebacker jonathan vilma noticed that change comes with a little bit of resistance in sports and in society. will the majority of players embrace sam or do you think they'll push him away? >> i think similar to what happened when michael sam was at missouri that he'll be embraced. he'll be embraced just like any other player would be. he'll be teased. he'll be made fun of. he'll be one of the guys. but he'll be evaluated mostly on his ability to sack the quarterback. >> selena, the miami dolphins' jonathan martin left the team in 2013 because of bullying. also reports of anti-gay slurs being tossed around the nfl. is there a culture of masculinity where sam will not be accepted, especially around the locker room? >> i think the dolphins

situation was more of aberration than it is the rule. most of the teams that will consider michael sam have veteran leadership in the locker room. they accept guys for different religious backgrounds, race, different backgrounds, whether they're rich or poor. i think he will find a good family in the nfl and do quite well. >> wade, the nfl released the following statement on michael sam saying this -- i want to read it. we admire michael sam's honesty and courage. michael is a football player. any player with ability and determination can succeed in the nfl. we look forward to welcoming and supporting michael sam in 2014. here the nfl seems to be embracing michael sam. yet at the bottom of michael sam's combine page which is written by the nfl, he is compared to, quote, larry english, an overhyped, overdrafted marginal producer in the pros. why the disparity between these two statements? >> well, i think any player who's entering into the nfl is

going to have his people who love him and who hate him. and i think that michael sam at the combine will have a chance to prove to any scouts who may believe that he's overhyped, the type of player that he is, i don't think that you become the defensive player of the year for probably the strongest conference in college football if you're overhyped. it's unfortunate that there are a few people who see him as someone who's overhyped. but i think the majority of nfl scouts, nfl teams are excited to have anyone who lives in their truth, who shows the utmost courage and as much heart as michael sam did. >> you came out after you finished up playing. but during your player years, did people know your sexual orientation? did they suspect it and did they treat you differently? >> no. i would say i did a pretty good job of hiding my sexual orientation. and after i came out in 2012, all of my teammates from high school to college to the pros

have been really amazing and welcoming me. i have the chance to work with the nfl now on a couple of different initiatives. and it's been really wonderful. >> selena, there's been all kinds of drama in the nfl of all different kinds. do you think there is fear in the organization that this could be a distraction? >> those who call it a distraction, i think that's code for, we're not comfortable with it. and i think that there are going to be some executives in the nfl because of their own backgrounds or their own biases that say, i'm not comfortable with that distraction. but you look at a team like the patriots who say, there are no distractions, we just care about football, not getting into the media hype. i think those mature organizations will do a good job in embracing him. >> wade and selena, thank you. >> thank you. ukraine's former prime minister just finished speaking to the crowds in kiev. and the white house is saying it will work with russia and other allies to support democracy there. what it all means for the u.s.

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it has no room or place in our society today. >> i don't think it's supporting slavery at all. we are honoring our ancestors who a lot of them gave everything that they had for what they believed in. >> in georgia, the war inside the state. raising the confederate battle flag brings up the question of heritage or hate once again. then on capitol hill, a shift before the mid-terms. could the recent set of retirees change the landscape enough to give the democrats the upper hand in the house. we begin with breaking news from ukraine. a revolution has led to an i parent takeover in the president's office. opposition forces have seized president viktor yanukovych's compound there. although the president has reportedly left kiev, he defiantly appeared on television earlier calling the rebellion a coup and likening it to the nazi invasion of germany. meanwhile, the former ukrainian

prime minister was released a short while ago. yulia tymoshenko now a free woman as the revolution takes hold. i want to get to the white house where the administration is responding to this. kristen welker has more. >> reporter: white house officials say they're monitoring the situation in ukraine quite closely. they welcome the release of the former prime minister, yulia tymoshenko. she just spoke to a large crowd in kiev, urged p situation forces not to give up calling them heroes. but this is what the white house was wanting to see. they have been advocating a swift transition to a coalition government, early elections. they want to see the violence come to an end. so they believe what has occurred today will help to move that process forward more swiftly. here's a little bit more of white house press secretary jay carney had to say in a statement that was released just a short while ago. he says, quote, going forward we will work the our allies, with russia and with appropriate

european and international organizations to support a strong, prosperous, unified and democratic ukraine. going forward, the ukrainian people should know that the united states deeply values our long-standing ties with ukraine and will support them as they pursue a path of democracy and economic development. all of this comes, milissa, amidst tensions of course between the united states and russia. they have clashed over a number of issues from iran and syria and now ukraine. yesterday, president obama spoke with president vladimir putin for more than an hour. it was a conversation that was initiated by president obama. the white house describes it as constructive. both leaders agreed that the violence needs to end. both agreed that a plan needs to be put in place swiftly in ukraine. and they essentially want to see the situation there come to a calmer state and that the economy in ukraine needs to be stabilized. so those are some of the issues on which they agreed.

president obama continued to hold out the threat of sanctions, however. of course that's something that russia would disagree with. but both leaders also agree this is a very fragile political agreement that is in place. so they are monitoring it quite closely as these developments continue to unravel quite quickly. >> nbc's kristen welker at the white house, thank you very much. very thanks. for more on this, i want to bring in steve clemens, washington editor at large for "the atlantic" and msnbc contributor. he joins us live. let's start with a little background. why is the opposition so angry at its government? let's bring our viewers up to date. >> i think the big reasons why it is angry with the previous government is that over a period of time, really from 2010, yanukovych, the president, began assuming more and more powers and taking presidential authorities that didn't exist previously. that's why one of the interesting outcomes that happened yesterday is they've gone back to their 2004

constitution and reduced the power of the president dramatically. and that was one of the big gains yesterday. but at the same time, he also robbed them of their rights of protest and the rights of civil society to function peacefully. and then after taking those powers away from them, he tried to restore them. but it set so much fear among the general populace, that they may be looking at a strong-man, thug ri approach to government that it brought everyone into the square and began to capture the attention of ukraine, which is a nation that is absolutely strategically consequential both for europe and for russia -- >> actually that's something that i was really hoping to get to because there was a decision of late that people have been very angry about. basically siding with russia over the west. isn't that part of their opposition? >> well, i think that the big thing is what president obama's been saying through this whole crisis is ukraine shouldn't be forced to pick between allegiance to russia or an

alliance and deeper economic connections with europe. it can't have a zero sum between those two and have ukraine that's not deeply split. ukraine is really set right up under the armpit of russia. so it's sort of geographically in a complex position. but it matters to both ends. and to a certain degree, you can sort of measure how well we're doing in the post-cold car world by the amount of integration between ukraine and europe because it shows that the new russia is not necessarily trying to reset the old borders and boundaries and alliances of the soviet union, which is what a lot of people fear but don't want to talk so much about. so i think fundamentally, that is the dividing line that everybody's been worried about with ukraine. >> is what we've been hearing about president obama has been speaking at length with russian president vladimir putin about this, what does all this mean for the united states foreign policy and our relationship with russia? >> well, i think that fundamentally we have to figure out whether we want to deal with

russia on an a la court basis, other matter that is we deal with globally, or whether we're going to realize that russia is at this point -- at least the self-impression of ascendance in the world that it matters all over the place and it's testing the united states and europe in many other parts. do we want to have a broad strategicic arrangement with russia or not? we do with chinese. we have a process where we talk about many things beyond bilateral relations. we talk about issues all around the world. that seems to be missing with russia. we have a lot of contact and interaction with them but it seems like we don't have a really good strategy with russia. they have a strategy with us which is to look ascendant in the eyes of the world by giving us trouble in many of the hot spots like syria. >> steve, thanks very much. arizona lawmakers passed a bill on thursday to allow businesses to refuse services to

customers if they felt it would violate their religious beliefs. many in the lgbt community believe this would allow some arizona businesses to discriminate against them and cite religious belief as a defense. governor jan brewer said today that she has not decided yet if she would sign the bill. let's bring in ethan orr, representative orr is one of three republicans who are opposed to this bill. why did you vote against it? >> well, i think the most poignant critique of this bill was summed up by my 9-year-old son. we were walking in the studio and he was asking me about the bill and he stopped and said, that doesn't seem very christian? and i said, son, why would you say such a thing? and he said, well, you're supposed to treat others the way you want to be treated. and the insidiousness of this people is it excludes people from commerce. if i have that power, i can exclude you from society itself. >> a spokesman from the governor's office told us this. it is the governor's policy not to comment on legislation until

she's had a chance to review it. monday would be the earliest she would take action assuming that it's transmitted by the senate by then. she'll have five days to act once she receives it. last year, she vetoed a similar bill. today she said, quote, to have to make a decision until friday so i have plenty of time. what do you think the governor will do now? >> i spent about 45 minutes on the phone with the governor's staff yesterday. i'm advocating she veto it as are many other people within the republican party. the chambers of commerce, the business community is aligned against this bill. i sincerely hope that she vetoes it and if she doesn't, it will probably be struck down in the courts. >> reuters is reporting the arizona law is seen as an attack against the rights of gays and lesbians to equality under the law. is arizona going backwards? >> i don't think so. this bill is not the only voice that arizona is speaking with.

in fact it's not even the only voice in fact republicans. i think most arizonans and most republicans are opposed to this bill and don't want to discriminate against people based on homosexuality. >> you're a republican and your party has been confronting the issue. do you think this sets back your party on a national level? >> i certainly hope not. i view marriage as a function of religion and of the church less so of the state. and i think you have a lot of republicans like myself that believe that i have a set of core values and beliefs and we ask people to respect those. if i ask others and appreciate when others respect my beliefs, how can i turn around and not respect the beliefs of others? >> will there be an effort to influence the governor's decision? >> absolutely. i'm committed to working very hard with the lgbt community, the business community and people around arizona to ask the governor to veto this.

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we want to bring you up to date on breaking news story we have been following. u.s. and mexican authorities have arrested the head of one of mexico's most notorious drug cartels. joaquin el chapo guzman was arrested overnight at a mexican beach resort. mark potter joins us from new york. tell us more about guzman and why this arrest is so significant. >> reporter: guzman is considered by drug agents around the world to be the most powerful drug trafficker in the world. he headed the sinaloa drug

cartel, mexico's largest cartel. the biggest supplier of drugs to the united states, methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine and marijuana. it was a violent cartel, a strong cartel that took over smuggling routes into the united states over the last few years in a very bloody way. guzman is reputed to be at the very top of all that. so his capture is seen as a very big deal in mexico and in the united states. it's tantamount to the killing of pablo escobar in colombia, even the killing of osama bin laden in the war on terror. to the mexicans, this guy was number one. and he was most wanted by the d.e.a., too, with a $5 million award. this is a huge arrest. we're told by u.s. and mexican authorities that it occurred early this morning. in fact, a mexican senior official just said it happened at 6:40 a.m. in mazatlan. they have officially confirmed they do have in their hands

joaquin el chapo guzman. this was -- >> let me interrupt you for just a second. we are actually watching him being walked by authorities at this moment. this is just moments ago. we were watching that live moments ago. i'm sorry to interrupt you. i just wanted to point out to our viewers what we were watching. please, mark, continue. >> reporter: no problem. i can't see that hear so i'm eager to see that picture myself. he hasn't been seen for a really long time, since he escaped from prison in 2001. >> looks very different from the picture we're showing. very different. >> reporter: yeah, leaving prison in a laundry truck leading to the great stories about him and songs that were written about him and the legend about him. this was the result of a concerted effort by the d.e.a. over time to catch him. the mexican authorities said they had been watching him for a while and just chose the right time to pick him up. they said in the arrest at mazatlan, no shots were fired, no resistance offered.

it went very cleanly. but this was clearly a d.e.a. operation in collaboration with the mexican marines, who they have worked with in the past quite well in the capture and killing of other kingpins. so this is a really big deal. guzman had a huge impact on the united states according to authorities supplying so much of the drug load coming into this country. his organization was infamous for the tunnels that they would dig along the border and for the violent tactics that they would use to take over the plazas or the drug routes along the border. so, again, this is part of a concerted attack against that organization that many feel will help certainly weaken that organization and lead to a disruption, at least for a while, of drug supplies, particularly meth and heroin coming into the u.s. >> to your point that you just made, in a situation like this, in an organization like this,

which is obviously very violent, we've been hearing about that in gruesome detail for years. in a situation like this, is there an heir apparent to succeed a person like this or do you expect a bloody battle from the authorities that you've been talking to? >> reporter: the answer to that is both. there is a sub-head of the organization who has not yet been captured who will continue to try to limp along. they've lost a lot of members in this organization. but what some agents are saying is that what we're going to see now is other organizations vying for the power once enjoyed only by the sinaloa cartel. chapo guzman ran that cartel. it was his cartel. and the loss of him at the top will be felt. other cartels will try to take over some of those routes. we've seen in the past when that happens, there's a lot of bloodshed. we saw it in juarez and tijuana.

we've seen it. eventually the sinaloa cartel would come in and win the war and everything would quieten down. now that piece may be upended by the capture of guzman. so there's a plus and minus here as a result of this historic arrest. really is a historic arrest in mexico. >> joaquin el chapo guzman being walked by authorities after his arrest. mark potter in miami, thank you very much. talk about a speed trap. a long island woman was pulling into her driveway yesterday when the ground suddenly opened up and her car plunged head first into a ten-foot-wide sinkhole. she was able to call 911 from her car. thankfully made it out unharmed. authorities say the sinkhole may have been the result of an old cesspool. you're watching msnbc.

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the unitunited automobile w union deciappeals. they say skefrl conservative politicians mounted a campaign to dissuade workers from approving the union. leading up to the vote, several tennessee lawmakers suggested subsidies for lawmakers might evaporate if the union was established. a decision may not come for months. the option of unionizing is being considered now by college students. at issue, are college football players employees or students? that is the question being asked in an ongoing national labor relations board hearing. northwestern university football players are seeking to be recognized as workers because they want to be represented by a union. let's bring in leo gerard, the international president of the united states steelworkers of america. thank you for joining us. >> good to be with you. >> why would college football

players want to unionize in the first place? >> one of the things that they're saying and rightfully so is that they're, in fact, employees. they have an employee/employer relationship. the kind of effort that they have to put in amounts to upwards of 40 hours a week. when it's training season, it's anywhere from 50 to 60 hours a week. and they really want to have a voice. that voice is about safety, about their scholarships. that voice is about the kind of protections that they need to make sure that they can graduate. and right now, they're prisoners of the ncaa. and the rules of the ncaa. and i want to also say, they're very, very concerned about having a role in defining what concussions are. there's rules for that in the players association but not in the ncaa. >> aren't they asking for stipends and possibly even a cut because the college football economy is so large?

go ahead and answer that. >> they're not asking for wages. what they're saying is that currently -- if you check that out with most players, their stipend as it's called doesn't cover the ability to take care of themselves, doesn't cover food, doesn't cover clothing. and in fact, the coach can determine where you eat, where you live, what you wear and what you're allowed to say. that's an employer/employee relationship and they're not talking about wages in the traditional sense. most of the public doesn't know the scholarship is only a one-year scholarship that most players get. if the coach decides to change the kind of structure they have in the game, you could lose your scholarship. if you get injured, you could lose your scholarship. if you choose to miss practices because you're working on your education, you could lose your scholarship. those are the kind of rules they want to be able to talk about. >> we want to ask you quickly, though, on a union issue also in the news, the united auto

workers, what is your take on the plant in chattanooga? >> my take is that it's a tragic circumstance when right wing politicians who profess to be for freedom will interfere in a free and open union election where the employer was able to be neutral and the workers by a substantial majority when they applied wanted to have a voice in their workplace. and i can tell you this. i've never heard of this happening in any other advanced democracy where a governor, a state senator and a federal government senator for the state would intervene and threaten to cut off an employer's ability to get support from the state. but you could remember that the head of the works council in germany has also said because of the fact that this is the only facility in the world that doesn't have a works council, they'll have to re-evaluate whether they put additional work into that state. >> leo gerard from the united steelworkers of america, thank

you for joining us. coming up, when is it a symbol of heritage and when is it a symbol of hate? democrats are working to take back the house. do they stand a chance? this is msnbc. [ fishing rod casting line, marching band playing ] [ male announcer ] the rhythm of life. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. [ m'm... ] great taste. [ tapping ] sounds good. campbell's healthy request. m'm! m'm! good.® it's not for colds,

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net weight 340 grams. [ sighs ] [ chuckles ] [ announcer ] always rich, never bitter. gevalia. i'm milissa rehberger. here's a quick look at some of the top stories making news now. this just in from former massachusetts governor, mitt romney and chris christie are teaming up. romney will join christie in boston on thursday to raise money for the republican governors association. however, their events will be private. the body of a young man found in a rome train tunnel has been identified as a missing american student. 21-year-old john dirken was last seen in rome wednesday night. he was a student at bates college in maine. he had been studying abroad in rome. protesters filled the streets of caracas today following ten days of political unrest. anti-government protesters called for an end to violence while on the other side of the

city, women in support of the government marched for peace. and pope francis appointed 19 new cardinals in a vatican ceremony today. they are the first such appointments made by pope francis since he was elected last march. nearly three dozen members of congress will not be running again in 2014. just this week, new jersey democrat rush holt and california democrat gloria mcleod said they won't run again. they need 17 seats to win back majority in the house. are we seeing members of congress flee in larger-than-normal numbers or is it really just business as usual? >> it's basically just business as usual. there are about 35 members who are either retiring or leaving office to run for another political office. the post-world war ii average on the house is 37.

so we're basically at the historical average right now. >> what happens to seats of retirees? how often do they stay within the same party once they do come up? and there's not an incumbent running? >> incumbents generally are reelected at a 90% clip. that's different from year to year. sometimes you'll have waves where that number goes down a little bit or it will go up. but it's a lot easier to win an open seat than it is to beat an incumbent. but with the two members you just mentioned, the two democrats, both those districts are districts where president obama got about two-thirds of the vote in 2012. so those certainly aren't seats that are going to flip. but there are a handful of seats that are now open on both sides that are probably going to -- very well could flip to one party or the other. >> president obama spoke with democratic governors thursday night and outlined a new way to win mid-terms. there were no cameras there but reporters took note of what he said. quote, we know how to win national elections but all too often it's during these mid-terms where we end up getting ourselves into trouble

because i guess we don't think it is sexy enough. is the president right here? >> well, i think democrats do have a turnout problem in mid-term elections. democratic voters are disproportionately younger and disproportionately minorities. and those voters don't come out in mid-terms the way they do in presidential races. democrats need to tell their voters, what happens at a presidential race is as important as what happens in a mid-term if you really want to have a governing majority to run the country. >> what has to happen for the democrats to get that net gain that they need to get control of the house from the gop? >> i think the republicans are pretty heavy favorites to hold the house. i think that something along the lines of the government shutdown we saw in october is the thing that democrats need to take the house back. they essentially need republicans to shoot themselves in the foot. the thing is, the recent budget deals have taken another shutdown off the table and taken another debt ceiling battle off the table.

so what would deliver the democrats the house is something that we can't really foresee at this point because history suggests they don't have much of a shot to beat the republicans in the race for the house this year. >> kyle kondik, thank you for being here today. >> thank you. heritage or hate? it is a question that has surrounded the confederate flag for many years now. now the debate is being reignited. georgia's department of motor vehicles is releasing a new specialty license plate featuring the flag. it also features a logo of the sons of confederate veterans which includes a smaller version of the stars and bars. the president and ceo of the southern conservative leadership conference joins us. ray, you must have known this would create a firestorm. so why even do it? >> well, the simple fact is that all people have a right to celebrate their history and their heritage. we as an organization believe that southerners have just as

much right to celebrate our history and heritage as anyone else. we find it a little bit ironic and maybe even hypocritical that here we are in the middle of february and those who are the biggest critics of southerners celebrating their heritage are right now celebrating their own. >> charles, why are these things offensive? >> well, first of all, we must realize that the south lost the civil war. secondly, it was a treason act in terms of what the confederacy represent. we're talking about overthrowing a government, we're talking about terrorism, we're talking about people of color who's being taken out of their homes at night and being lynched by lynch mobs. you're talking about people who are being auctioned off under this confederacy. and it was all about greed in terms of the south was king of

cotton and this type of thing. and it's about making money, as well as for cheap labor or no wages at all. so the point being is that we cannot sit around idly and tolerate this type of behavior. if we allow this, the next thing we know, we'll be back in the cotton fields, back on the farm, back on the plantation. we are not going to go back one iota in terms of the imagery of what we have accomplished. >> ray, what do you think about what charles just said about your comparison to the confederate flag controversy and black history month? >> well, charles and i have been in several of these meetings over the last few days. and charles and i have gotten to know each other well enough that he knows full well that neither i nor the folks that are a member of my organization that are wanting to put anyone back in the cotton field. most of the folks in our organization are just like other southerners. we're just good christian folks and we just believe that we have

a right to celebrate our own history and heritage. the new license plate is available not just to members of the sons of confederate veterans but to anyone in georgia. but it's voluntary. so no one has to take the plate. but if they choose to, they can pay the extra money involved and have the license plate and celebrate their own history and their heritage. >> other states have tried this already. other states have taken different positions on these types of plates. according to "time" magazine, nine states offer a license plate with a version of the flag. proposed plates in florida, kentucky and texas have rejected it as controversial. do these plates really represent heritage? >> absolutely. the confederate flag is the most well-known symbol of southern heritage around the world. by the way, it's also a symbol of freedom from tyranny in countries all around the world, including places like the sudan where black christians fly the

confederate battle flag in spite of attacks by muslims. >> charles, i want you to respond to that. >> first of all, it's ludicrous. secondly, the state of georgia should not allow this to happen. you just had 24, 48 hours ago a noose around the statue of james merrick in mississippi, university of mississippi. that's right after this bill was passed. this is a good example in terms of what brings about the advocation of separation, discrimination, dehumanization of people of color. that's what it represents. and you're going to have more people coming out trying to destroy the imagery and accomplishments that we have made. by the way, all three of those of your men who was at the university of mississippi just 48 hours ago, they're from the state of georgia. >> ray, charles just mentioned the story out of mississippi at ole miss, members of a fraternity hung a noose and an

old georgia flag featuring the flag around the statue of james merrick. is it really a time to celebrate heritage when we have other things happening and other people see that flag as something very, very different? >> well, milissa, the sons of confederate veterans is not a racial organization at all. we allow members from any racial background to be a member of the sons of confederate veterans and we have members that reflect the entire racial makeup of the south prior to 1865. we have not only white members, we have black members, hispanic members and even jewish members who were very much involved in the war effort here in the south. and i find it ironic that southerners are being told we can't celebrate our own heritage and yet we're right here in the middle of february when other people who are attacking that right are celebrating their own. it's just a little bit hypocritical. >> i'm sorry we have to leave it there, ray and charles, thank you. >> thank you.

up next, her fiance was shot and killed by police the night before their wedding. now sean bell's widow talks to us about gun violence spreading through our streets. stay with us. settle this. a steel cage death match of midsize sedans. the volkswagen passat against all comers. turbocharged engines against...engines. best in class rear legroom against other-class legroom. but then we realized. consumers already did that. twice. huh. maybe that's why nobody else showed up. how does one get out of a death cage? vo: hurry in and lease the 2014 passat for $189 a month. visit vwdealer.com today. ♪ we asked people a question, how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? $500,000. maybe half-million. say a million dollars. [ dan ] then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. ♪

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in vision or hearing. [ cellphone beeps ] this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to your doctor. we're hearing more about the 17-year-old georgia student who was shot and killed by police who were entering his family home. one officer claims that christopher roof was pointing a pistol when they entered. the family says he was just holding a wii remote when he answered the door. in arkansas, a vigil was held to remember adrian broadway who was shot and killed while playing a prank while egging a house. all of it raises questions about gun laws and quick triggers. it's a subject my next guest, nico

nicole, is familiar with. her fiance was shot and killed on the eve of their wedding. it's been seven years now. >> seven years. >> sean was shot on his way outside from his bachelor party by undercover officers who say they thought he was armed. they were found not guilty. now we have more incidents like this. do you feel that we have come anywhere in the past seven years? >> you know, the only way that we'll get progress is by paying action and actually executing that action. in the case involving my fiance, sean, he was killed. the police officers were acquitted of all charges. since then, we've had other tragedies similar and then we have some that don't involve police officers but at the end of the day, unless there is accountability, there won't be change. >> let's talk about this past saturday a week ago. michael dunn trial, the so-called loud music shooting. he's going to prison after

shooting and killing jordan davis, saying the teen was armed but he was not armed. jurors couldn't decide on the first-degree murder charge. do you believe there remains a discrepancy in the way that courts treat white men and black men in situations like this? >> it's the elephant in the room. at the end of the day, we try to get around it and just like we did in the jordan davis trial, it wasn't allowed to be a fact. the fact that he was black and michael dunn was white. but at the end of the day, it was over music. his music. it was considered thug music. this was a young 17-year-old boy who did not deserve to lose his life. >> and trayvon martin, people feel a similar way. your fiance, people feel a similar way. but it's not always police or undercover police making a mistake thinking they're armed. in this case, they're civilians. in the case of the egging, adrian broadway being killed, 15

years old, this is a civilian. do you see a difference in how courts are treating it or should treat it? >> from a victim's perspective, it does not matter who's standing behind the gun. at the end of the day, you have a loss, a family who has to mourn. you not only affect the life that was taken away but the families. so many that are now coming forward. at the end of the day, we have to hold these people accountable. it's not civil rights. we're talking about human rights. >> what role are you playing in all this? >> i started a nonprofit organization. i encourage so many people, we need to become vigilant, stand up, rise up. let's get in touch with the history of our country. we have learned throughout history that people stand up, we fight back when things are wrong. that's what we did. we hold community events where we bring everyone together. we hold "know your rights" forms to repair and reform police community relations because it's

so important. we all need the police officers when we're in trouble. but at the end of the day, gun violence as a whole, we as a people have to get back to standing up, fighting, standing up, rising up, coming to the occasion. and not just completely turning towards the government and towards laws. we ourselves, we have to become that change that we want. >> nicole, thank you very much. good luck in your endeavor. coming up, what are the next steps to stem gun violence if congress will not act? our "brain trust" weighs in on that next. ♪ [ male announcer ] this man has an accomplished research and analytical group at his disposal. ♪

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call or click today. let's continue the conversation on gun violence in verk. -- america. ester, the michael dunn case is

fresh in our minds. if he had not been armed with a gun in that day, with jordan davis still be alive? >> it's a strange question because he was armed and jordan is dead. i think we keep recycling the conversation from scratch with every crime. so we ask with every case is it about race? >> but it is a simple question, though, if he had not had a gun on hmm thim that day, at least it be more likely that jordan davis would not have died that day? >> the challenge is how do we navigate that space so we don't keep having that conversation. what do we do about the reality that people like dunn have a gun and that loud music is a reason to shoot a child. >> the president promised swift action to overhaul the gun laws but there's been no new laws

since then. is it likely as we head to the mid terms? >> in a word, no. the republicans control the house of representatives so nothing will happen there. the democrats, meanwhile, have no appetite for putting some of their candidates, some of their incumbent candidates on the spot, people who are senators, for instance, in alaska or arkansas. the truth of the matter is that the united states has this twisted love affair with guns and the future is really kind of dark. >> tom, you are from virginia where gun ownership is part of the culture. so can we have a national conversation about guns when there is a very wide regional divide over gun rights? >> it is a regional divide and you're basically dealing on parallel planets between your urban areas and your rural areas. look, it's republican and democratic leadership. i don't think that harry reid has any appetite to bring a gun bill up in the senate either. you could do stricter ins f eer

enforcement of stricter laws. there are thousands gun cases not prosecuted because they're not considered significant enough. you could start with thought witho -- that without having to change current laws. >> i'm just going to jump in because i think -- see because in rural united states is not where the deaths are happening on a massive level. i think we have to not throw everyone who owns a gun under the same bus. the reality of the second amendment does exist, it's not going anywhere. when you look at research and statistics, we see a smaller number of people are stockpiling larger and larger numbers of guns. it's not true to say everyone who owns a gun is a michael dunn or is dangerous. >> and just because a person own as gun doesn't make them bad, it's the decision making

involved. just because a boy is playing loud music doesn't give you the right to get angry and shoot them. because you have a gun in your pocket doesn't give you the right to decide to use it. >> when we come to the issue like michael dunn, the elephant in the room that's not focused on is the reality of irrational white fear about young black bodies. what should we tell block young men about how to behave in order to not get the violence. that's like saying to women what should you wear to not get sexually assaulted or raped. we need the activist, strategic ways to deal with those realities. >> bob, did you want to weigh in on that? >> in the united states there still is a racial divide in this country and the presence of guns just makes it a more deadly

possibility. the fact of the matter is that if somebody has an argument and he's carrying a gun, well, he has the ability to take somebody's life and sometimes that's going to be happening. instead of duking it out, so to speak, they're going to be shooting it out. >> a lot of these cases people have permits they're carrying, standing behind state laws that allow them to utilize that. in these mass shootings we read about in virginia tech and sandy hook and placing like that, there are no racial conations at all, there are people who shouldn't have had guns in the first place using them. >> in many places in the united states, the permit process is so easy that many people who shouldn't have guns have them also. not only that but they're carrying them as concealed weapons. >> and there's an unwillingness to enforce the laws that are already on the books, to make it harder for those who have guns to use them in the way they're doing so. >> the center for american progress is hosting a summit of

about a hundred young people from 32 states to talk about gun violence. do you think getting young americans to take the lead on this issue in particular is the best way to move forward? >> it's certainly one way to move forward. we need to have a national dialogue where people who hunt in the rural area, single women who want to protect themselves can have access to guns but have the discussion of keeping it out of the hands of people that have no business having them. i would just say enforcing existing laws, we can start with that right now. we don't need to change the law. there has been very lax and not uniform enforcement of existing laws. our brain trust, thank you for joining us today. that is our show. thank you for watching. i'll be back tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. eastern time filling in for craig melvin. he'll be back in the seat next weekend. but first, "disrupt" with karen finney. have a great saturday afternoon.

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dawn does more, i'm bethand i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative,

we like interacting with people. so you have time to focus on the things you love. ink from chase. so you can. hello, disrupters. ukraine uprising and a new campaign with dirty tricks. >> power shift? >> something is under way. >> the ukrainian has set elections for may 25th. >> there are reports that the ukrainian president has left town. >> we want him to go right now. >> the government simply seems to have melted away. >> tensions have been mounting between the united states and russia. >> it is in russia's interest for the violence to end in ukraine. >> growing calls to end stand your ground. >> they were instructed to