special psyllium fiber in metamucil actually gels to trap some carbs to help maintain healthy blood sugar levels. metamucil. 3 amazing benefits in 1 super fiber. this morning, my question. do rich people already have more votes? plus, the mother of slain teen jordan davis on turning grief into activism. and the daughter of malcolm x. tells us about the young malcolm little. but first, the debate over ten ten president obama continues to wage against the machine. good morning. i'm joy reid in for melissa harris-per harris-perry. okay. let's play a game of what if. say you were given a big, red,

shiny button just like this one and you knew if you pushed it, you could lift 900,000 people out of poverty just like that. you'd push it, right? but hold on, there's a catch. what if by pressing that button, you might also be eliminating 500,000 jobs or as many as a million or none? and there's really no way of knowing until you push. in fact, you might not know until long after you push or you might not ever know. would you do it then? that's the question we have to ask when we debate whether to raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour, as a bill introduced by congressional democrats and supported by president obama would do. >> let's tell congress to say yes. pass that bill. give america a raise. because here in america, no one who works hard should have to live in poverty. and everyone who works hard should have a chance to get ahead. >> $10.10 would be a major increase over the current

federal minimum wage of $7.25, a 39.3% increase, to be exact. and as the bill is written, it would be tied to inflation, so it would keep increasing automatically as the years go on. congressional republicans and major business groups like the u.s. chamber of commerce and the national retail federation say, no, that passing the minimum wage would cause businesses to higher fewer people, ultimately hurting low-wage workers and the economy. supporters of raising the wage saying putting more money into workers' pockets can only help the economy. and both sides have legitimate points, at least according to the new report out this week on what a wage bump would do to economic job growth. the report was done by the congressional budget office, the nonpartisan influential office full of economists and policy advocates who evaluate the effects of proposed legislation for congress. in its report, the cbo estimated that raising the wage to $10.10 would increase the incomes of 16.5 million people who

currently make between $7.25 and $10.10 an hour. another 8 million making just more than $10.10 could also see ripple effects from the wage bump. a higher minimum wage would increase income altogether by $5 billion a year for poor families. and $14 billion a year for those in the middle class. and it would lift 900,000 people out of poverty, about 2% of the 45 million americans living below the poverty line. those are great, inspiring numbers that will serve as substantiative ammunition for the proponents of a higher wage floor. but there's still that catch. in the same report, the cbo estimates that raising the wage could result in a decrease in the number of jobs, anywhere between just a few to as many as 1 million jobs could be lost. now, the cbo uses midpoints in their estimate, which is why you've seen headlines this week which says the minimum wage increase could kill 500,000 jobs. now, several economists along with "the new york times" editorial page and the white house have argued that the cbo

is way overestimating the number of jobs that could be lost. and that it's out of line with most economic studies on the subject of raising the minimum wage, but the cbo is standing by its report, arguing that the $10.10 proposal would have a higher impact on employment, because the increase itself at 39% is much bigger than the past wage increases that have been subject to all those previous economic studies. so let's take the cbo at its word and ask if all the benefits it describes, 900,000 people out of poverty, 16.5 million with higher wages, higher demands for goods and services throughout the economy are worth the risk of losing up to a million jobs. joining me now is tameron drought, vice president of policy and research at demos, ovick roy, a senior fellow at the manhattan institute, and an opinion editor for forbes, sadah gabra, and evoi wolski, welcome

to all of you. i think the first question, obviously, is would you push the out be ton. let's go around the table. i already know what you're going to say. let's start over here. would you actually push the button? are those jobs worth raising the minimum wage? >> absolutely. and i would dispute there is a trade-off, because you noted that the cbo's analysis is against the weight of current economic consensus on this issue, which finds that raising the minimum wage does not cause job loss. and it's important to know that the cbo didn't do any independent analysis when it released its report. what it did is review the economic literature out there and did a synthesis and found that estimate of job loss, even though hundreds of economists reviewing the same literature, seven nobel laureates have said, no, raising the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour will improve the lives of working families without the job loss that the cbo claims. >> evo, would you take that trade? >> i would. and i wouldn't just look at the economists. economists say a lot of things that don't always come true.

you look at the real-world examples, states where the minimum wage has increased, other times the minimum wage was increased under bush the last time in 2007, and you see there, you don't have job loss. you have unemployment either decreased or stayed the same or fell below the national average. it certainly didn't increase. >> right. >> and just taking her dispute into account, but just pretending that we all agree that it's correct, i just want to show as i ask you, tamron, the same question, the actual trade-off, higher wages for 25 million people, 9,000 people out of poverty and jobs lost. you have a lot of people getting a lot of benefits as against 500,000 potential job losses. so even if we just go ahead and stipulate that the cbo is actually correct, looking at that trade-off that you see, tameron, would you pursue it? >> i would push it, push it twice, three times if you ask me, absolutely. one thing we have to keep in mind, we know workers are going to get the benefit. the unknown is whether there

will be job gains, which is also an option, or job loss. so i would definitely go with the known of raising almost a million people out of poverty and improving the living standards of millions of workers, absolutely, in a heartbeat. >> and avik, that is really the issue. the known is a hundred year's of economic history, that higher wages, that great bulge that happened during the 1940s after world war ii and the oncome of unions in the early to mid-20th century, when people's wages went up, you saw the economy rise, because people could buy the newfangled gadgets, the refrigerators, people could guy cars. there's real-world evidence that raising minimum wage lifts people out of poverty and improves the economy. the unknown is the -- >> higher wages are good. federal mandates for higher wages are not. the people that are the most vulnerable are people that are seeking work but can't find it. that 500,000 number, whatever the real number is, it's an important number to be concerned

about. i thought your rundown of the cbo report was good. there are two points to keep in mind that the cbo explicitly did not take into account. the first is when you raise the minimum wage, it has an impact on the cost of consumer goods that are functioning, when you raise the cost of businesses, they have to pass on those costs to consumers in the form of higher prices. the second point that's important to remember, there are a lot of anti-poverty programs, things like medicaid, things like s.n.a.p., like other transfers that explicitly don't get counted when you think about the impact on poverty. so the impact on poverty is actually more muted than the cbo calculated, because it only took into account wage income and not other transfers that are means the tested, that also affect how those totals come together. >> okay, so -- go on. >> the minimum wage is not fundamentally an anti-poverty issue. yes, it -- or the measure. yes, it raises people out of poverty, because incomes increase, but it is a fundamental labor standard. it is the fair labor standards act, wages cannot fall below this level. and the problem is it has not kept pace with inflation over these last 40 years. we are talking about raising the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour.

yes, it's a 30% increase, but had we just kept the minimum wage up with inflation over the last 45 years, it would be almost $11 an hour. this is the problem. the minimum wage stays flat for years at a time, congress cannot get its act together to pass an increase, and workers are effectively seeing a pay cut. >> it's a different analysis, which if you take into account the earned income tax credit, the impact of the earned income tax credit in concert with the minimum wage, actually the wages of those individuals is actually increased. >> i know that the earned income tax credit is sort of a favorite means from the conservative world of raising the overall income annually. but the fact that that's a one-time infusion of cash into a household, that means that you're catching up then on bills that have fallen behind, because your actual day-to-day, week-to-week, month-to-month income can't keep up with the basics of your life. how does a one-time cash transfer make up for lower wages? it doesn't seem like in the real world, that actually helps people.

>> your point about how the impact of those transfers should be more regular, rather than just a one-time thing at the end of the year is a good point. marco rubio in his speech, anti-poverty speech talked about that, why it's important to actually have an improved system, where you're actually giving that extra money to people, rewarding them for -- >> but aren't you actually asking federal tax office dollars to subsidize low-wage work. you're essentially saying -- >> that's better than -- >> pay low wages, and we will subsidize that through the federal tax -- >> why is that better? >> that's better than making it harder and costlier for businesses to hire those -- >> it is not -- >> let's go to igor. >> ovik is not wrong to say, obviously, if you increase the minimum wage, your payroll will increase, that's absolutely true. but i think there are two roads businesses can go down. they can increase their payroll, pay their workers more, and in return, they get higher productivity, better workers, they retain the best and the brightest, or they could save on payroll and say, we're just going to pay people the least we can and then they have a lot of

turnover, they have to recruit more people. and businesses know they face this choice, which is why you have businesses like costco, like gap just recently increasing their minimum wage and saying, we're doing it because we value our workers and we value our customers and we know if we have the best workers, our customer service is better, our business overall runs better. >> we're going to stick with that point. i know everyone wants to jump in on that, because that's what we want to hone in on. businesses own attitudes toward this. because walmart, they haven't had a complete change of heart, but they're starting to get there. i'm randy, and i quit smoking with chantix. as a police officer, i've helped many people in the last 23 years, but i needed help in quitting smoking. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix varenicline is proven to help people quit smoking. chantix reduced the urge for me to smoke.

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the day after the cbo report came out, we got some other minimum wage news. gap inc., which owns gap and five other clothing chains, announced it will increase its

bay base pay for workers to $9 this year and to $10 in 2015. gap says the change will affect 65,000 workers. gap said by increasing hourly pay, quote, we can strengthen our ability to attract and retain a skilled, enthusiastic, and engaged workforce. we believe that investing in our front line talent will strengthen and deepen relationships with our customers. and, of course, by doing that, gap got a little shout-out from president obama, who has also, he did the address this week on the minimum wage and this is obama's response to the gap, saying they've raised their wages. >> earlier this week, one of america's largest retailers, the gap, decided to raise wages for its employees, beginning this year. their decision will benefit about 65,000 workers in the u.s. that means more families will be able to raise their kids, finish their studies, or keep up on their bills with little less financial stress and strain. >> okay. and it's not just like the squishy, liberal gap. it's also walmart, which while

they didn't sign on to the idea of necessarily increasing the minimum wage, it was played that way in bloomberg, but walmart sort of sounded like they're kind of softening on it. from bloomberg this week, increasing the minimum wage says some of the 140 million people who shop at the chain weekly will now have additional income. that was walmart's spokesman, not saying they're for it, but not necessarily against it. >> i think employers are really recognizing that their employees aren't just people who work for them, they're also their customers. so, again, if you raise up wages, in a spending economy, you have more consumption, you have more growth, you grow the economy out. and also, who benefits? the president mentioned there, people raising families. in gap and elsewhere, disproportionately the beneficiaries are women. women for who the economy, frankly, the labor economy, doesn't work very well. they don't have paid sick leave, for instance. other issues that need to be addressed. so this is just, i think, a policy that gets us there, that makes sure we have an economy that works for today's workers.

>> and how does one argue against that, ovik. foo we're talking about making more consumers, that is a conservative argument for raising the minimum wage. >> why do wages grow organically in the economy when federal policy isn't dictating what the wages will be? it's when there's competition for workers. so where you have an economy where there's low unemployment, because the economy is growing, that's where wages increase, and that's the kind of wage increase we're not seeing, because unemployment is so high. >> the only way to grow is when you're collectively bargaining for them, which is another thing that's been taken off the table for a lot of workers. >> listen, one thing we haven't talked about here is business responsibility. you know, you keep saying that there shouldn't be some overall floor for wages, that the government says, if you do business here, and hire workers here, you have to pay a decent standard of living. and that's what the federal minimum wage is. it's a decency wage. it says that in a rich nation like the united states, nobody who goes to work every day should live in poverty. you know, i'm sorry.

business has a responsibility here to hire at a decent wage. they can afford it. walmart knows they can afford this. they spend billions buying back shares of their own stocks, which really benefits shareholders and ceo pay. they know they can afford this. and they don't have to raise prices to afford this increase. >> well, i mean, just i'll explain, wages have been stagnant around the decline in this country for a long time, even before the economic recession hit. from 2012, for the bottom 60% of america's workforce, wages were stagnant around the decline. one of the key reasons why was because our wage floor has badly eroded, because it has not kept pace with inflation. and i think gap's announcement is as much a response to the momentum that's out there to raise wages. i mean, it's, you know, in response to the fact that we've seen this tremendous decline at the bottom and this increase at the very top. >> and i think in the ideal world, you can say, yes,

business has a responsibility to its employees, but they don't have an incentive, right? a clear, amoral profit incentive, taking morality out of it is to make a profit. and a lower wage, a lower cost of labor is one way to eke out more profit. >> unless there's competition for the workers. >> but without unions, because the unions are on the decline. without a collective bare bargaining force, it's a race to the bottom. >> that's a question for ovik. if ovik wants to see more competition, would me support the expansion of unions, laws that would make workers organize, make it easier so workers have representation. he said that he would want to see that sometimes maybe a safety net is better than increasing the minimum wage. would he then support medicaid expansion or having a more robust safety net? i think a lot of times, conservatives want to have it both ways, right? they want to say, let the market decide what the wage is going to be, but then we're also going to

make sure that workers don't have the representation they need, so that they're in a fair bargaining situation with their employers. and that's why workers have been losing for decades, why wages have increased some 2% annually since the 1970s. >> let's let ovik respond. >> i support universal coverage, i support a robust safety net. i think the earned income tax credit is a great example. and the cbo report talks about this. they point out a minimum wage increase is not targeted toward the low-income people. a lot say the rich teenage kids -- >> hold on a second. >> the earned income tax credit is much more targeted towards -- >> it is not about targeting, it's a labor standard. like, yes, it does impact -- if you are poor and you are working, you will be less poor with a minimum wage increase. it benefits everybody -- >> if you have a job, if you can get a job. but there will be less jobs. that's the problem. >> i think it's a canard to say it's about teenagers. that's a fallback position from

the right. the majority of people who make up low-wage earners, 91% will have not attained a bachelor's degree. we're talking about a lot of adults raising entire families on the minimum wage. and we have to get off this idea that it's teenagers. a lot of times, it's household earners. >> the broader point is the point about income. if you really want to target, if you want to help out people who are struggling because their incomes are low, the earned income tax rate is a more targeted way to do that. >> i'm sure a lot of people want to respond. right after the break. ...and a choice. take 4 advil in a day which is 2 aleve... ...for all day relief. "start your engines"

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in san francisco. that city has a minimum wage of $10.74, and it's going to go up every year, because it's indexed to inflation. california just passed an increase to $10 an hour. there are five states that passed increases last year, many more are going to do it this year, including in red states like alaska and south dakota, that will have it on the ballot. and it's clear that these increases, like igor were saying earlier, have not caused job loss. we have not seen massive unemployment among low-wage industries. in fact, they have been booming, because they are the ones that are disproportionately growing in our economy today, which is exactly why we need to raise -- >> go ahead, igor. >> i'm just surprised to learn this morning that apparently the conservative position or the position against the minimum wage seems to be, let's get rid of some labor standards, let's allow businesses to kind of race to the bottom, and let the government subsidize these folks who aren't paid enough. >> i think that is probably my biggest problem, too, ovik. we've had this debate before. that's my biggest problem with it. it's essentially, as igor said, you're asking for essentially a

welfare subsidy, so that businesses can get away with doing in this country what we've accused them of doing outside the country, which means searching for $2 an hour labor somewhere outside the u.s. we're now saying, feel free to come here and search for that amid americans and we'll subsidize them with a one-time welfare payment. >> germany has no minimum wage -- >> they have strong unions. >> tennessee, that's -- they tried to do -- >> -- a necessary tool for all the things -- >> ovik, where are you on these unions? we've talked about this too. are you open to -- >> i'm totally happy with anyone who wants to organize a union to do so. >> do you think it should be easier for people -- >> i don't think people -- >> that's where -- >> i think it's fine for people to organize if they want to and that's what they do. >> they do, but they don't in the southern states. because moonlight and magnolia's theory of the economy has been, let's create right-to-work states and compete to create more jobs by creating lower wages. >> but those workers in the

volkswagen plant in chattanooga voted not to join the union. >> -- political -- >> you could disagree with the result, disagree with their decision, disagree with the people who tried to persuade them one way or the other. >> hold on a second. >> they voted with their own free minds to not join a union. >> let's talk for one second. first of all, volkswagen has now, they've raised question about whether they'll build anymore plants in the south. they might have actually now presented more jobs in the south. i want to pick up on a point that you made. there was a vote in tennessee, a union vote, a vote not to create the union, but there was a fair amount of political pressure there. bob corker, the senator from texas -- i mean, from tennessee got involved in it. the politics of the minimum wage are interesting. because democrats do feel that it is as a political manner good for them to run on this, good for them to have this debate we're having here. and republicans by and large have said, they're just going to stay, not do anymore new legislation. let's talk more about the politics of this for democrats. there's a poll that gallup took

that showed the, that asked, what is the most important problem facing them, unemployment and jobs got 23%, the economy in general got 20%, wage issues only got 2%, and the gap between rich/poor only got 2%. as a theoretical matter, people on the left think, this is really important. people in tennessee want higher-wage jobs, but if they are left to vote, vote no on the union, asked what their most important thing is, they don't say wages. >> to be fair, you look at polls and about half of workers said, if they had the option of joining a union, they want to join a union. in 2013, 26% of union elections actually organized a union. i think the problem is, getting at a union. that's a discussion maybe for another day. you're right, as a purely political matter, for the voters that democrats are looking to attract, this is this new obama coalition of voters, this is where the discussion needs to be about jobs, about wages, about upward mobility, about, as the president says, kind of building the economy out from the middle and raising up those people. because for too long wages have

stagnated, folks haven't been able to advance in starting, you know, from the early 2000s onward. and those are the voters who, for, i think, a long time have said, what has the government done for me lately. i feel like the government's only helping the rich people and not me, and i think it's the job of lawmakers now, if they want to win elections, to change that perception. >> and on a policy level, tamara, what is the strongest argument one would make for raising the minimum wage, that it's not an obvious thing were for the average voters. >> it is strongly supported by most voters if you ask directly, if you want to see the minimum wage increase, it's hard to get poll number s as strong as the are for the minimum wage. the strongest argument is that it's the decent thing to do and we get a lot of economic benefit out of doing it. it is a stimulative policy, but as tsedeye keeps saying and i will underscore, it's a basement labor standard.

we are an advanced nation. we need to have basic dig any zpi a decent floor for wages in this country. >> and i think that is the perfect last word on the subject. thank you so much, tsedeye, for being here this morning, and everyone else, please stick around. up next, somewhere out there is a brand-new one percenter. fa, which is funny, 'cause i still do it better than her. you know, i don't think i was meant to sweep. it's a little frustrating. look. [ zach ] i can't help out as much as i used to. do you need help? [ doorbell rings ] let's open it up. it's a swiffer sweeper. swiffer dusters. it can extend so i don't have to get on the step stool. i don't know how it stays on there. it's like a dirt magnet -- just like my kids. [ afi ] this is a danger zone. that is crazy. ah haha! [ zach ] yeah. no, this definitely beats hanging out on a step ladder. good jump, baby.

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when wepg about millionaires, billionaires, and politics, there are few people who come to mind right away. specifically, when it comes to conservatives. charles and david koch, aka, the koch brothers. you probably know their political network raised $400 million during the 2012 election cycle. but how about the name paul singer. not ringing any bells? he's the new york billionaire who politico reported last week helped launch a club called the american opportunity alliance to bring together some of the richest pro-business gop donors in the country. several of whom share singer's supports for gay rights, immigration reform, and the state of israel. politico reports that the club will host a closed-door meeting this week. among those expected to attend, house speaker john boehner and kelly ayotte, according to the report. but wealthy conservatives aren't the only ones putting their money where their politics are. one financier is about to test how well one percenter politics

work to address what is often perceived as a liberal issue. democrat tom stier founded one of the world's most successful hedge funds and spent millions to help elect his candidates of choice in last year's elections, including $11 million to help terry mcauliffe to become new jersey's new governor. now stier wants to build a $100 million war chest to tackle climate change during the 2014 election season. nbc's chuck todd on friday's edition of the daily rundown asked stier about the influence of wealthy donors in politics. >> there have been some legal decision, some court decisions, which i absolutely disagree, like citizens united, which have led to this explosion of money. >> do you believe you should not be allowed to be doing this? that you should not be -- you've pledged $100 million, $50 million is your own. do you believe you should not be able to legally do this? >> i believe there should be a different system. we can complain about it, lament about it, or do something to try to work within it. what is what we're trying to do. >> joining us now, marcus mabry,

editor of the lead blog at "the new york times," and from washington, "mother jones" magazi magazine, dark money reporter, andy crowell. you've written a lot about this new nexus of dark money. for the liberals who are uncomfortable with the post citizens united world, does tom steyer's approach show that the only way to beat a billionaire whose ideas you don't want implemented on government is to fund your own? >> that certainly seems to be what tom steyer thinks. and he has supplanted any of the other liberal boogiemen of years past, as, you know, the face of billionaire politics among liberals, and you know, he's really creating some and eliciting some kind of fascinating reaction with people. some people don't agree with him embracing the post-citizens united rules of the game. he's a super pac. he's going to be spending anonymous money as well around the issues of climate change,

and specifically punish lawmakers who don't take action on that issue. but you also have some other folks, myself a little bit included, who feel that going down this road and throwing money on top of money on top of money may not make that much of a difference and is only going to have a harmful effect on elections and campaigns and frankly our democracy. >> well, i'm wondering, andy, is it an equal playing field? are there as many big-money super pac liberals as there are conservatives s out there oper right now? >> it's definitely tilted toward the right. the numbers from the 2012 election bear this out. most of the biggest super pacs, most of the biggest political nonprofit groups, the so-called dark money groups, if you will, are tilted toward the right. i think what stier is trying to do is the balance that out. and if you have a whole cottage industry of think tanks and other groups stoking doubts about climate science and trying

to delay climate change legislation, you know, steyer wants to at least bring some pushback and emphasis on the other side, it's not an even playing field at all, on what we see the money being ratcheted up on either sides and these billionaires who care about a single issue really getting skprofd trying to, you know, press the matter, just by virtue of their own money and their own networks. >> i want to bring this out to the table, and i'll start with you, marcus, you are newest joining the table, is this the world that we now are living in? post-citizened united, doesn't this make the sense, this is the world we should play. otherwise, we're going to be outgunned in every election? politically, i don't understand how either side, even if this advantage was on the left right now, as you said, it's on the right, how either side could unilaterally disarm. i mean, you just can't do that in our political context. i mean, remember, it was obama's state of the union, when he called out the supreme court on

citizens united case, and he said, it was the wrong decision. and you had chief justice roberts there in the first row looking out for the president, stone faced, and i thought, there is the conflict of our three wings of government going at each other, right? and i think the supreme court, until the left can actually impact the supreme court, and there's a conservative justice that steps down, while there's a democratic president, and a democratic senate, and that may be only a few months left of that, until that happens, then this is not going to change. this is going to stay the law of the land. as long as it's law of the land, you must play with these politics. otherwise, you'll see yourself losing issue after issue after issue on the political landscape. >> and tamara, what is the risk of that to our democracy? this sounds like 3,000 or 4,000 people essentially deciding every single policy in the country >> yeah, it's a real travesty. the voice and the preferences of most people in this country are completely left out in this system. i keep thinking, if the people who make the news, the adelsons,

the koch brothers, tom steyer, what do they all have in common? they're white men, and they're setting the agendas and priorities of our national politics. and it leads out the preferences, the needs of low-income people, of people of color, of women. i wish i had $100 million. i believe in climate change. i think it's important that we actually advance, but is that what i would choose? is that what 100 million voters whould choose? maybe they would want that money put towards advocating for job creation. in fact, polls show that's probably what they would want. you know, it's become a plutocracy. >> and ovik, i'm curious because on the right, a lot of the argument is, you know, well, people don't necessarily -- the people don't want these liberal policies. but when you have so much money being poured in to shape public opinion, particularly in core republican districts and core republican areas, are we really seeing the democratic process, say, that we don't want unionization, we don't want higher wages, or are we really seeing that warped by a few people who stand to personally

benefit, you know, by the ordinary citizens in their states making less money, staking less wages, et cetera? >> you know, it's interesting. this is one of those issues where the way the progressive movement looks at this issue and the way the conservative movement look at this issue are very, very different. liberals and prerogatives tend to worry, well, maybe we'll be outgunned, maybe the rich people will support policies we don't like and that will be an unfair advantage. the way conservatives look at this is different. it's a first amendment issue. congress should pass no law abridging the freedom of speech. that's why the supreme court ruled the way they did in citizens united. they thought the law was a violation of the first amendment. and i know that liberals and supreme court justices don't necessarily agree with that, but it's a constitutional issue in terms of the outcome. but should money buy you more speech than me? >> we have our votes, right? so the votes are what -- the money doesn't necessarily influence the elections, right? >> so why spend it? somebody's losing a lot of money for nothing. >> we all have the freedom to start a newspaper, to start a

blog -- >> but not everyone has the money to do it. i mean, i'll ask you -- >> but you can't -- how do you level the playing field with that, legally? you really can't? because to do so, necessarily, it bridges the freedom of speech. >> when you're in a situation in a system where 0.1% of the richest americans gave 40% of the campaign dollars in 2012, you have to ask yourself, who has the louder voice here? >> we'll take a quick break. but when we come back, andy, i do want to come to you on your incredible report about how one very rich family, planned, organized, and spent its way to a defeat of organized labor. that's next. i'm beth... and i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people.

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in the current issue of moth"mother jones" magazine, ou guest, andy crowell, has a feature about the family of billionaire richard devos senior, and current chairman of the orlando magic ownership group. according to crowell, since

1970, devos family members have invested at least $200 million on a host of right-wing causes, think tanks, media outlets, political committees, evangelical outfits, and a string of advocacy groups. they spent $44 million alone in michigan just in the past 17 years, and it's borne fruit. the devos family helped make michigan a state synonymous with the power of organized labor a right-to-work state. crowell reports that, quote, like his father, dick devos jr. sees organized labor as an enemy of freedom and union leaders as violent thugs who have an almost pathological obsession to power. but while devos sr. simply invade against unions, dick took the fight to them directly, orchestrating a major defeat for the unions in the cradle of the modern labor movement. joining us from washington is andy crowell, staff reporter at mother jones, and also a michigan native. give me a sense of what people in michigan actually think of the devos family in general.

>> yeah, where i'm from, which is not far from where the devos family is based in west michigan, they are sort of our local rockefellers, if you will. they are that huge, wealthy family, the institutional, multi-generational that sort of looms large over politics in the state of michigan, which have been evolving for decades now. and the devoses, they always been there. and when michigan passed right-to-work in december of 2012, there were sort of rumors and grumblings that the devos family had a role this it. they had been quietly sort of pushing a message about right-to-work in michigan for quite a while. but, i, you know, decided to go back to my home state and dig into it a little bit, and really came back with a story about how a family, you know, with a lot of savvy and a lot of money, especially, and at the state level, can make the unthinkable happen, which was, as you said, right to work and the modern

labor movement. >> and what was really fascinating about your piece, how you talked about how individual members of that legislature were really pushed hard, and governor rick schneider, who ran -- didn't run on this and said it was an't a priority, how people were really cornered and how the money and influence and power that the devos family had, really moved legislatures to do something that they didn't originally set out to do. >> right. we don't see this quite as much in washington, d.c., because the stakes are larger, the stage is bigger. but -- and you go to state capitals around the country, especially when i was in lansing, the capital of michigan, you really see, you know, how much more bang you get for your buck if our democratic donor or a republican donor. and you really see how the sausage gets paid, how the arms get broken, and how, you know, just a handful of really motivated, wealthy people can turn the screws on lawmakers in their state and really try to

get them on board with an issue that, you know, even a few days before right-to-work was introduced in michigan, it was, you know, thought to be dead on arrival. and look where we are now, you know. rick snyder sign pd it into law, michigan is a right-to-work state. >> and ovik, you are also a michigan native, as you said. is this really the kind of democracy we want? andy's piece talks about really, you know, pushing lawmakers to do something that they didn't tell the constituents they were going to do, and also, using it a as a template to, quote, defund the left, basically, take away their oppositions, even opportunity and options to fight them, and essentially impose this idea and this will, not just on michigan, but on states that have unions right now, all over the country. is that the kind of democracy we want? >> andy's piece was terrific, and hats off to him for writing it. it was really fascinating. as you said. i think one thing that's really important to realize, and this goes back to the point we were making before the break, right-to-work was supported by 70% of the people in michigan.

>> it was underwater in the polls not long before the devos family started getting in there and really pushing it. >> as andy reports in the story, they did a bunch of polls o. a bunch of issues and found there was 7% support for right-to-work, that's why they went forward with pushing for that issue. and remember, there's money, power, and a lot of influence, political influence with the labor unions that was already there. it's not like there was some sort of popular isnsentiment th was being reflected in the way the laws were set up. there were labor unions that were pressuring unions to support right-to-work and support the previous initiative to provide that in the institution. so if anything, what the devos family did in michigan, if you have public sentiment already on your side, yes, you can leverage that to pressure legislatures and politicians to do what the public wants. >> but there was a piece that andy has done, one of the members of the devos family, one of the wives said, the problem in michigan is high wages. one problem is too much regulation and high wages. do you think that's a popular

sentiment, yeah, our wages are too high? >> well, certainly not today. but if you have high wages that are economically inefficient, you have high costs. and it goes to the products that are too costly. why did all those auto jobs go away in detroit? it's because there were inflexible labor laws that led the cars that were produced in detroit to be inefficiently produced, not as high quality, too expensive for the labor costs. toyota could spend enormous amounts of money on r&d. that's why all these foreign car companies have put -- >> i feel like we should jump in. we're back to arguing that we need lower wages. >> making a very difficult argument, i think, which is that the interests of the 0.1 percent are the interests of all of us. they have popular opinions on their side and we're all in this together. >> the larger issue is it perpetuates a very dangerous cycle. you pump in money to bust unions, you shrink the middle class. that class then has less money to give in elections and the money of the super rich is

weighed even heavier. and that perpetuates policies that go and undermine the middle class. >> i want to give the last word -- we're running out of time. i want to give the last word to andy kroll, do you think the devos money -- or how do you think it will play in 2014, briefly? >> i think they're going to play at the state level. they're going to try to defend the gains they've made, defend the lawmakers who helped them get right to work. you know, that was part of the deal, that was, you know, if you help us on this, we'll help you out down the road. and they're also doing some very interesting work on the senate race there, terry the republican, and gary peters, the congressman running for senate, you'll see a lot of money flow into that and try to take back a democratically held seat, and you'll see efforts to push the right-to-work model, the strategy, into other states as well. and so it's -- their work is on multiple levels, national and state. >> all right, andy, thank you so much. andy kroll, great reporting coming from washington, d.c., and thank you to tamara drought and ovik roy here in new york. marcus and igor are sticking

around. coming up next, the reaction from jurors in the michael dunn trial and what it tells us about stand your ground laws. and jordan davis' mother joins me live. but quick, a quick programming note. starting tomorrow, msnbc has a brand-new daytime lineup, including the debut of my new show, "the reid report" at 2:00 p.m. eastern. hope you'll join me then. oh, applause! and know this, there's more nerdland at the top of the hour. ♪ ♪ ♪ (announcer) the subaru forester. motor trend's two thousand fourteen sport utility of the year. when you get some recognition, you can't help feeling a little humbled, and a little proud. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. ♪

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♪ 9 a.m. cheesesteak! ♪ 2 p.m. cheesesteak! ♪ 4 a.m. cheesesteak! ♪ any time (ruh!) >>geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. . time to take care of business with century link's global broadband network and cloud infrastructure. we constantly evolve to meet your needs every day of the week. welcome back. i'm joy reid in for melissa harris-perry. it's been a week since a florida jury delivered its verdict in the trial of michael dunn, the 47-year-old man who shot and killed 17-year-old jordan davis in jacksonville, florida, in november of 2012. the decision of the seven women and five men on the jury who found dunn guilty of attempted second-degree murder of davis' friends, but were unable to reach a verdict as to whether

dunn murdered davis left many wondering, what were they thinking? well, now we know. because this week, two of those jurors sat down for interviews where they talked at length about exactly what happened inside the jury room. and what was going through their minds as they struggled to reach a consensus. in that interview, in an interview with abc news, juror number four, identified only as valerie, spoke about one of the first things the jurors did when they began their deliberations. >> page 25, start with page 25. >> that was the page in the jury instructions that said that the use of deadly force is justifiable if michael dunn reasonably believes the use of force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm. that is the language of florida's controversial stand your ground law, that first attracted national attention after george zimmerman went 44 days without being charged for shooting trayvon martin. and it was the part of the jury instructions that dunn's defense attorney, cory strolla,

explicitly told jurors to i pay attention to, during his closing argument. >> he had no duty to retreat, and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly twors. >> so although dunn's defense attorneys opted against using stand your ground in a pre-trial hearing to exonerate him, we know now that the jurors considered it during their deliberations. according to juror number four, it was an inability to reach an agreement on this key question, about whether dunn's use of force was justifiable, which led to their inability to reach a verdict on the charge of first-degree murder. but there's another question that both jurors agree did not factor into their decision in the case. >> how much of a factor did race play in the jury room? >> actually, none at all. we -- race wasn't presented in evidence, so therefore we couldn't use it. >> white man shoots and kills a 17-year-old black boy. how could it not be about race

on some level? >> sitting in that room, it was never presented that way. we looked at it as a bad situation, where teenagers were together and words were spoken and lines were crossed. >> so according to the jurors, race did come up in the jury room, because race did not come up during the trial. prosecutors never introduced rationally charged letters sent from dunn while he was in prison awaiting trial, so the jurors never heard them in court if they had, the jurors may have heard this musing from dunn in a letter to an unknown recipient. quote, it's spooky how racist everyone is up here and how biased toward blacks the courts are. the jail is full of blacks and they all act like thugs. this may sound a bit radical, but if more people would arm themselves and kill these expletive idiots when they're threatening you, eventually they may take the hint and change their behavior. michael dunn is awaiting sentencing next month on the conviction of three counts of attempted second-degree murder and one count of shooting into a

vehicle. but this will not be the last time a jury will consider this case in court. after last week's verdict was announced, florida state attorney angela corey vowed to dunn again on the outstanding charge of murder in the first degree. joining me are marcus mabry, "the new york times" editor of "the new york times" lead blog, seema eyre, a former prosecutor for the bronx d.a. office, khalil mohammad, and igor volsky, managing editor of thinkprogress.org. seema, i have to come to you, and ask, the dunn jailhouse letters, the one that i just read in the setup, let me read a little bit from another one in which dunn talks about thug culture. he says, i'm really not prejudiced against race, but i have no use for certain cultures. this gangster rap ghetto-talking thug culture that certain segments of society flock to is intolerable. now, the prosecutor, john guy,

referenced this notion of thugs and said, hey, look at these other three boys, the three surviving boys that got on the stand, they're not thugs, he got that far, so why not introduce the letters? >> i have no idea, joy. in every one of my trials as a defense attorney, the prosecutor hands me a stack of cds and says, listen to these, i will argue that they are relevant, if evidence is relevant, it comes into the trial. in this particular case, the words that mr. dunn wrote and the words that he uttered on those recordings are relevant. why are they relevant? they do directly to the premeditation and the intent to commit murder. directly to that first-degree murder. i don't know why, joy. this is the same conversation that we had during zimmerman. are they throwing these cases? is this politically motivated? >> you know, i want to take a listen to juror number four, whose name is valerie. and she talked about -- now, she was one of the people who wanted to vote for second-degree. she was in favor of a vote for second-degree murder.

let's listen to a little bit of what she said about their deliberations. >> why were you and the others so convinced that dunn was guilty? >> we all believed that there was another way out, another option. >> and yet, the actual jury instructions prevented them from using sort of that common sense reasoning to go to the next step, which is to say, he's guilty of murder in the first-degree, which was required spite and ill will. >> but they would have had to have found him not guilty on the murder of the first degree to go to murder in the second-degree, because that was a lesser included. and they hung on the murder in the first-degree. >> and, so, before stand your ground was put into place in 2005 and signed by governor jeb bush, this is the way florida jurors were instructed in case like the michael dunn case and cases like the zimmerman trial. the defendant cannot justify the use of force, likely to cause death or great bodily harm, unless he used every reasonable means within his power and

consistent with his own safety to avoid the danger before resorting to that force. the fact that he was justifiably attacked cannot justify the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm if by reter retreating, he could have avoided the need to use that force. so they thought he had another way out. so this could have been a very different outcome without stand your ground? >> absolutely. and i think we have to ask ourselves, do we want to live in a world where we know implicit bias shapes outcomes in high-intensity, emotional situations. to the question of why didn't the prosecution enter this kind of evidence of dunn's state of mind in remps to rap music, which, of course, is largely upheld by white consumers, why that kind of information wasn't used in this trial, begs the larger question, how come an expert testimony wasn't given by implicit bias researchers. because we've known for at least a decade, jennifer everheart and

phillip goth at stanford university have cited the fact that people when primed with black faces are much more likely to see weapons. they are either going to see guns or knives. therefore, we have the basis for having a smart, even scientific conversation about how race functions in these kinds of circumstances. and stand your ground, though problematic, in every instance that we've seen, does not have to silence our ability to tease out and discuss the context in which race operates in our daily encounters. >> you heard the jury say, race never entered into the discussion, because it wasn't part of the trial, but the problem is, it's part of the law. one of the big problems with stand your ground, and the problem that's baked into it, i think, is this idea that subjective belief rules. that your own bias, your own subjective feelings about someone, that's what matters and you don't have to retreat, and you can, you know, in some

cases, cause very serious harm. >> and you know, it's interesting you say this. former state senator, there were very few votes against this law, dan gelber, the house democratic leader at the time, then became a state senator, he was one of the few who voted against it. this is what he said about why he did vote the way he did. while in the florida legislature, i strongly opposed the strand your ground law, because i believed it would provide defenses to people who had created the scenarios they sought protection from. or it would leave juries without the proper rules of engagement that ought top govern predictable human interactions. by taking away from the jury, the simple notion that people have an obligation to avoid the danger or retreat if they could do so safely, they were essentially authorizing stupid, veal, and as in this case, often tragic behavior. but people give complete weight and deference to people's own personal subjective views to the danger they're in, you're essentially prompting people to just act without thinking it through. >> absolutely. and when you read those pre-strand your ground jury

instructions from florida, which said, basically, if there's another way out, you had to take it, you gave us a context for why stand your ground came to be. there were people out there who said, if i'm threatened, i should be able to stand my ground and fire back. i don't have to retreat. i understand that human reaction, especially those who want to have a tough way of looking at it. which is why so many democrats support it. but to believe that somehow there is going to be justice dealt in these somehow murderous situations, as we've seen, even when there's race involved and there's almost always race involved when you're talking about people of different races, even two different african-americans, there can be race involved. to presume that's going to be justice and not racial bias injected into that situation is ahistorical ignorance in our country. we don't live that way as americans. i wish we did. i wish race didn't matter. it does. it matters to our justice and how we see danger. so to ignore that is murderous. and that's what we've seen. and we'll see it over and over and over again. this will not be the last time.

>> stay right there, because when we come back, the mother of of jordan davis is going to join us. and we were all moved by what she had to say right after the verdict in the michael dunn trial. >> we are so grateful for the truth. we are so grateful that the juries were able to understand the common sense of it all. and we will continue to stand and we will continue to wait for justice for jordan. this is for you.

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also laws be changed. that's what the world saw in 1955, when 14-year-old emmett till of chicago was brutally murdered in mississippi by two men after he was accused of having been flirtatious with a white woman. till's mother, maimy till moldmy released the photos of her open casket funerals to the media. the shocking visuals attracted attention to the vulnerability of african-americans in the segregated south and helped to galvanize the nation's movement for civil rights. almost six decades later, the country watched the public grief of yet another mother, who summoned the courage to act despite a heartbreaking loss. sybrina fulton, the mother of trayvon martin, continues to honor the life of her son, with her activist work to ensure another mother will not have to carry such a heavy burden. and yet, her work remains undone. because the name of another mother has now been added to her

cause. in the wake of the shooting death of 17-year-old jordan davis, his mother, lucia mcbath, joined the fight for gun law reform as the national spokesperson for moms demand action for gun sense in america. and she joins me now from jacksonville, florida. lucia, it's wonderful to talk with you again. >> thank you so much. >> i want to start by asking, and i'm sure all our viewers would love me to ask, how you're doing. >> um, taking it day by day. yesterday, i was able to have a little bit of a rest and relaxation with my family. we had a chance to go to orlando, just to breathe a little bit. so just taking things day by day. >> and i mean, you spoke so eloquently during the trial, and i think everyone has been really amazed by your courage and your poise in all of this. the next step for you, and something you've been involved in is this issue of gun laws. how do you plan to tackle that, and give us just a little bit of sort of your strategy going forward with moms demand action. >> working very actively, as a

national spokesperson for moms demand action for gun sense in america, working collectively with all the mothers and the families across the nation, as we bring to light, to the legislatures, the state legislatures, civic organizations, businesses, universities and administrations, letting them understand what the gun culture is in our country, how it is devastatingly affecting each and every state, and getting citizens to understand and know that they have power and authority to make the change, to eradicating a lot of the gun laws in this country, that have been designed, basically to just -- and it's really sad, what's happening in the country, is that people are not able to freely walk their streets and live without the fear of guns, without the fear of violence. and so that is what we do with moms demand action. we actively work within the

nation to bring to light the gun culture in the country, and make the changes in the laws. >> and i mean, have you had any outreach? have you heard from any of the proponents of stand your ground? i know you're not a florida resident, but any of the state legislatures, and state legislatures in florida who are now being asked to consider changing that law. have any of them reached out to you? >> not personally, other than state senator brown. but having gone to tallahassee before and testified before the legislature there was very, just a little dismayed, because constituent after constituent after constituent basically spoke and said that they were very happy with the laws in the state of florida and that they were working for the citizens in the state of florida. and that was very disheartening to hear that. >> yeah. and i mean, i want to talk just a little bit about sort of the trial itself. i mean, you have now heard some of those jailhouse calls, and i

understand, letters, that michael dunn sent from jail. did it surprise you that none of that was released at trial? or used in the trial? >> well, we have a time frame in which evidence can be introduced. and of course, judge healey did make consideration for those pieces of evidence, but they were released after we had already begun trial. so some things were not allowed in evidence at that time. we're definitely aware, there'll be more evidence that will be allowed in the trial for jordan coming this spring. >> and what about your response to the jurors, two of whom have come forward and said that race played no part in the trial, it wasn't brought up in the trial. do you believe that race was a factor in jordan's death? >> we know that race is an element of our case, and that cannot be denied. i can't personally speak for those jurors. maybe they really did believe and think that race was not an

issue. i firmly believe, and what i've seen across the country, and particularly with the way the laws are being used in the state of florida, it is my belief that at some point in time, there had to be some thought of race. but i cannot speak, you know, particularly, for those jurors. >> right. well, lucia mcbath, i think i join everyone in commending you. you are a very strong woman. you're doing a lot for other moms, so they don't have to join the horrible club that you've been not voluntarily placed into. thank you so much for your advocacy and for being here today. >> thank you so much for having me, thank you. all right. up next, despite the dunn verdict, they're not backing down from stand your ground. even in florida, in fact, they're pushing to expand it. that story, when we come back. the wind-blown watery eyes. [ sniffling ] the sniffling guy on the bus. and, of course, the snow angels with your little angels.

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your ground law has had a slight change of heart. jacksonville's top cop, sheriff john rutherford, previously supported the legislation, but says now it's time to rethink the language of the law. in an interview with the florida times union, rutherford said, i think there is some tweaking to the stand your ground law needed, in that lawmakers should revisit whether there is ever a duty to retreat from a threat before using deadly force. rutherford went on to add, if it's a safe retreat and it doesn't place you in anymore danger, i think that's always the best response. as it turns out, changes to the law are, indeed, underway. only the latest update is more of an expansion than an edit. on thursday, a bipartisan house committee in the florida statehouse approved bill cshb-89, commonly known as the threatened use of force bill. this bill, which is expected to pass the full chamber, would expand stand your ground immunity to include not only the use of force, but also the threat of force under the law's protections. florida legislatures revisited

the legislation after the 32-year-old jacksonville mother, melissa alexander, was sentenced to 20 years in prison for firing a warning shot at her husband, who she says threatened to abuse her. alexander is awaiting a retrial after a judge determined that jurors in her case, in her original case, were given erroneous instructions about self-defense, but the real winner in the stand your ground expansion, if it becomes law, is the organization that's backing it, the national rifle association. so we have here, panel, an attempt to respond to the melissa alexander case, which was thrown out -- >> for different reasons, though. >> for different reasons, for the jury instructions, but now the move in florida is actually to expand stand your ground to give immunity if you just fire a shot in warning. >> so this bill, also known as warning shot bill, is going to help someone like marissa alexander, but just to be clear, marissa alexander got the 20 years for the 10-20 life law, so that's kind of a separate issue in that she used a firearm.

so, this would help her in that, it seems the that if you actually hit someone, you have more protection under stand your ground at this point, than you would if you miss, like melissa alexander. >> you know, joy, i am a little optimistic here. and i kind of feel the public opinion may be turning. yesterday morning, i spent with just a remarkable group of kids, about 100 kids from 32 states, came to the center for american progress, for what generation progress called fight for a future. these were kids affected by gun violence, newtown, sandy hook, and it was just remarkable to hear them identify the problems, talk about solutions, and ways to empower themselves. kids 16, 17, 18 years old, to empower themselves in their own communities to change the tide of violence, to change some of these laws, to change the perception of what's happening. and you know, we're often cynical about d.c. and lawmakers

can't get anything done and are spending money, but these kids are the future. and they really got it. they really understood it. and they were serious about the change coming from the -- >> just to inject a note of sympathyism. at the level, i think it's great, a lot of activism, and the dream defenders are down in florida. i want to read something that jahmell bowie wrote in the daily beast about his thoughts on whether or not it's going to even be possible to change the stand your ground law. he said, to repeal that law in florida, in effect, in 23 other states, means building coalitions, either with people who support the law or represent constituencies who support the law. constituencies that are mostly white and are from certain portions of the state, and have in the attitudes they have for grounded historical reasons. so, even that sort of step one, how do we do something about the solution, repeal the law, is almost impossible. like, it's just not going to happen. the way our political system is designed, there's no way to fix that explicitly.

let's say on 20% of white americans believe that there are no significant racial disparities in american life. in the american political system, that may as well be a majority. so, isn't that the barrier? it's just, legislatively, almost impossible. >> i think that's absolutely right. and that really is the challenge of the 21st century, which is to say, the criminal justice system and racism in that system, which is well documented. i'm a professional historian. i have taught the history of criminal justice my entire career, we are call it popular justice, because, ultimately, the expression of the criminal justice system, even though we are a nation of laws, turns on how jurors respond to evidence. and one of the things that's interesting in this case is, really, ten of those jurors believe that michael dunn actually committed murder. yet, in a jury system where you have to have a unanimous decision, it doesn't matter. so one, i think we ought to respect that, because there is something to be said for that. but secondarily, when we have elected prosecutors, we're the only significant nation in the world that continues to elect

prosecutors, which is a product of patronage in the office, but clearly has another dark side, which is to say that we can't give fair justice in our courts and we can't expect legislatures, when it's a race to the bottom, for the sense abilities of americans, and i'm going to side with michael moore here, who have built an entire edifice of our criminal justice system, being afraid of black people, and where they might show up. it's not too long ago that wayne la pierre described in the wake of the newtown shooting that people needed to arm themselves, because in the wake of sandy, there were people looting in brooklyn, which was an absolutely falsehood and a lie. and lastly i'll say, this notion that everyone's afraid to sort of name race and racism as the problem, americans have an amazing ability to intuit ill will, duplicity and bias when it comes to their political opponents and when it comes to their foreign leaders. foreign leaders in other nation. so pew tin writes an editorial and everyone intoo oo constitut

all of his ill will. barack obama has a hidden agenda. so this is absurd that we are not sophisticated to understand that just because is people don't say something, doesn't mean their ideas are not informed by an attitude where race matters. >> but even if we got that the laws prevent them from using in the common sense in the jury, because the instructions say that you give the benefit of the doubt to the person's subjective fears. >> there's two things here. number one, the jurors are lying. okay, that is the starting point. the jurors are lying the that race did not come into the fray. maybe they didn't discuss it, but it was there. number two is that i agree that this case was about race. however, it's not just race, it is race plus perception. and this is what i mean. so, you gentleman are sitting here in suits. the perception is different. whether you're black or brown or white. those young boys are not only dressed casually, t-shirts, jeans, baseball caps, they're listening to loud rap music. if they were listening to some country, feel-good, everything

feels good sing-along, we wouldn't be sitting here and jordan davis wouldn't be dead. >> there's a professor who put that into words, when she wrote for i believe "the miami herald," she said, the issue may be semantic or images or perceptions, then what the law actually says, the stand your ground law, is that the proponents want people to believe this is an aggressively, manly law that allows you to use deadly force. it reinforces this misperception that you don't have to think twice about shooting someone. that's the real danger, that essentially those implicit biases, you don't even have to express them, you just get to act because of the law. >> the law explicitly gives you that right. the law says, if you perceive this, then it's so. it doesn't actually have to be so. even if objectively, actually, say, it is racism driving you, saying it is historical racial roots of situation, in your view, of young black men. that's fine. if that's your view, then that's fine. and that's the real danger of the law.

it codifies and allows you to do this, to act on this prejudice and bias. >> absolutely. well, up next, a gun fired and the shooter lives. the target lays dead. but another debate over who's the victim. i'm beth... and i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people. so you have time to focus on the things you love. ink from chase. so you can. this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups. yeah... try new alka seltzer fruit chews.

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(dad vo) i want her to be safe. so, i taught her what i could and got her a subaru. (girl) piece of cake. ♪ (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. this week, the men who shot and killed trayvon martin and jordan davis said that they were victims. in an interview with cnn on monday, george zimmerman said this is how he felt the night he shot and killed 17-year-old trayvon martin. >> i certainly was a victim when i was having my head bashed into the concrete and my nose broken and beaten, so i wouldn't say i was not a victim. >> on monday, florida prosecutors released some of michael dunn's jailhouse phone calls. in those calls, following his arrest in the shooting death of 17-year-old jordan davis, dunn also called himself a victim. >> i'm the victim. he attacked me. i chose not to be a victim and

now i'm being punished. this is [ bleep ] up. >> speaking with msnbc's lawrence o'donnell this week, the father of jordan davis made clear who he believed the victim was. >> michael dunn should understand that the victim was the one that had a bullet go through his lungs. a bullet tear his aorta. the victim is the one that was choking on his own blood and was dwapsing for air. the victim was the 17-year-old teenager that should have had his whole life in front of him, that was seeing his life go away in seconds. and he probably was so fearful and his friends were looking on, watching their best friend die in a moment of seconds. that's the victim. >> the law says both trayvon martin and jordan davis were tragic, and what both of their stories did was to spark a national dialogue about a particular kind of victimization, involving a very specific group in our society, a

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as charles blow of "the new york times" wrote on thursday, with regard to the dunn case, this is simply one more example of the bias against, and in fact, violence both psychological and physical against the black body. particularly black men. that extends across society and across their lifetimes. and this violence is both interracial and intraracial. blow is talking about the way our society almost systemically devalues the lives of young black boys from the time they come into this boy. and early on imposes on them the stigma of presumed criminality. and one only has to look at the realities our young black men face to understand. between 2009 and 2010, one in five black boys received an out of school suspension. during the 2011 and 2012 school year, 75% of the students arrested in chicago public schools were african-american. in new york city, at the height of stop and frisk in 2011, 53%

of those stopped by police were black. by age 23, 49% of african-american men in the united states will have been arrested at least one. and black men born in the united states in 2001 have a one in three chance of being incarcerated at some point in their lifetime. i'm back with our panel, marcus mabry, seema iyer, and igor volsky. i'm going right to you, khalil, on this. this is beyond one trial or two trials, this is a broader societal problem for black men and young boys. >> we could actually say that the entire edifice of modern society in the united states was built on the notion that black people were an inherent threat to it. and that that evidence was rooted in a statistical analysis of black people being incarcerated or arrested. but what we know is that at the earliest possible moment when black people stepped into freedom, when black men tried to build their families and their homes, they were subject to criminal surveillance, because they challenged the status quo. we can never separate out,

therefore, their attempts to actually make america the country it claims to be, and then being subject to criminalization. that's a fact! it's the jim crow story. it's the story that we actually already know. but the notion, somehow, that that story is the past, that there's an invisible moment in time that we can say, it's 1968 or 1973 or '64, is absurd! because it's so deeply rooted in the cultural dna of the nation. i can tell you, in 1935, the problem of the false accusation of black people driving up crime statistics, falsely, was documented in an interracial report coming out of a group in the south calleded the committee of interracial cooperation, where they labelled the report, burnt cork and crime, because the practice of corking one's white face to appear to be black to those who were looking the for suspects was absolutely so common, that they could actually document it as a social phenomenon. so the idea that we've somehow left this behind is predicated on this notion that in these big

cities, these modern places, take new york city for example, just take stop and frisk. it is predicated on the notion that statistically speaking, black people are overrepresented in the system. doesn't that then tell us that we actually have fundamentally criminalized a group, because we're going to predict with that everyone in that group is a would-be suspect. this is point of fact. and that it doesn't matter who the individual is. so whether it's the dunn case or the zimmerman verdict or a reasonable person walking down the street, i'm going to presume that that black person, particularly a young black male, is actually criminal. that's a contemporary problem, which is an echo of a deeply rooted past. >> and can i just ask -- i don't want to have to make poor igor speak for all of white america, but how do we have that conversation with white of america? a lot of people are resistant to the conversation that he's making. we don't want to talk about

this, stop complaining. how do we have that conversation? >> i think white americans like to think everyone's created equal and if you just work very hard, you'll get the american dream. but white people, i think, have to wake up to the reality that just by a draw of a card, they were born white in a country where it gives them certain privileges, certain privileges to be able to hail a taxi cab easily, to not be followed around in a store. and i think until white people realize that, that they, just because of their skin, have certain entitlements in this country, that black people don't, i think that's really the key to make sure that the law, that the laws -- that the bias, rather, and that kind of privilege doesn't bleed into the law. but you have to realize, that you have privileges, and how you act and what you do with that privilege, i think is how you go about addressing -- >> but the opposite is true in a lot of ways. we played the sound bites of michael dunn and george

zimmerman, who really believe, you know, far be it for me to tell somebody what they believe. they believe that they are victims. and there is a sense of victimhood that you do see among some white americans saying, no, no, no, we're being victimized by things like affirmative action, so there isn't the ability to say there is this privilege, because people say the opposite is the true. >> well, there's a psychological element to this be with right, that goes to each of us as individuals. and in order for white americans to recognize white privilege, they have to say, well, withen,f i'm benefiting from privilege, then in some ways i have things that i don't deserve, perhaps. that is just a psychological resistance to that that doesn't let most people do that. if you look around and say, there's poverty and racism in america, that means that maybe i have stuff i don't deserve. and people reject that notion. the individual does not allow that notion to take root in his or her head. what i find most scary, and this is why you have the attorney of the united states himself coming

out and begging schools, please stop your -- >> zero tolerance. >> zero tolerance policies, please stop your, don't make one mistake as a child, because if you do, we'll throw you in jail and have the police up in here to give you a record. the reason why the attorney general asks schools to please stop this policy. imagine that, the united states attorney general asking schools to stop a policy, it's ridiculous. he did it because those little black boys, the bias we have in our heads as americans are immediately criminalized when they walk through the school door and schoolteachers and guidance counselors see them as a threat and that carries on forever. what i find extraordinary, even as an old, middle-aged black man, still walking down the streets of new york, when white people pass me on the street, i'll see more often than not, white men in particular, but also white men, check for their wallet. >> i disagree with my new friend, marcus, because i think

if you're in that suit, you're not going to -- >> i'm always in this suit. >> okay, well -- >> it's about skin color in america. it's not about class. >> i will take it, and i will -- i can't argue with that, because this is your experience. but what i will say, though, like khalil was saying, our court systems, our justice systems, any courthouse in this country is overwhelmingly a majority of black men. that is the fact. now, if you have -- if i have a client who is black and one day he comes in a t-shirt and the next day i say, put on a suit, the judge will immediately think, the lawyer made him put a suit on. that is the perception. now, if igor is in the audience, he'll walk into the courtroom and be like, what's a white guy doing it here? what'd the white guy do? >> or assume he's one of the lawyers. this is a discussion we could have for another, unfortunately, we cannot. but i want to thanks marcus mabry and seema iyer, khalil mohamed as well as igor volsky, thank you very much.

the story of malcolm little before he became malcolm x., as told by his daughter, next. the new guy is loaded with protein! i'll believe it when i -- [ both ] oooooh... [ female announcer ] as you get older, b

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. friday marked the 49th anniversary of the assassination of malcolm x. a one time leader in the nation of islam became one of the most outspoken voices on race. he was born malcolm little in 1925 and his introduction to activism began early. his parents followed the teaches of marcus garvey. they instilled their values into their seven children. now a children's book," malcolm little, the boy who grew up to become malcolm x, malcolm x's daughter is here. this is an interesting way. a children's book. why did you choose that genr

snempb. >> there's a child in each one of us. if you look, the illustrations are amazing. young, impressionable child is how we all begin. and it speaks to the role of adults, our responsibility to ensure that they are properly nurtured, loved, all that great stuff. >> what's great about it and the illustrations are beautiful and everything that looked at the book were just struck by what a beautiful child first of all your father was but also i think it does humanize him. we saw him appear on the scene as an adult. is that why you wanted to do it. to give the full humanity to your dad? >> it was important to understand the values that went into a young boy and the importance of the foundation of both his mother and father and what they played in sharing those values. >> being the daughter of

somebody who is such a seminole figure, how do you deal with that and does that follow you around in your career being an author, et cetera? >> i wouldn't say it's a lot of pressure. you know, it's who i've always been. so it's me now grown up. and i just accept my role as, you know, being an adult. >> i have to talk to you about something you're doing soon and this is a story i couldn't believe. during black history month there's a school in queens that barred the children from talk about or writing book reports about malcolm x. what do you make of that? you're going to that school. >> i'm going the school to donate assignment sheets. wonderful publishers donating cases of books to the school. most of the people, a lot of people that i know have grown up and they weren't able to talk about, write about or learn the truth about malcolm. and so it wasn't a big surprise.

what was more surprising was that the parents said absolutely not. malcolm x is a great man. a man of compassion. a man of integrity. who sacrificed his life for us. never asking for a penny in return but that he contributed all that he did and my child will learn about this great man. they stood up and gave an autobiography to say this is the truth of malcolm. it's timely that is i mondsimon shuster donate these books. >> i know there's a lot who fought to ensure that the depiction was accurate. >> right. >> but i think now it's just wonderful that we could put this children's book out, that we could humanize him, we could see the values and accept this enormous figure, you know.

he gave so much of himself. he was only in his 20s when the world learned of him. he 39 when he was killed. and look at all of what he did. he circled the fwloeb in the final moves his life searching for solutions to the human condition so that all of us could be treated fairly and especially our beautiful children. >> what do you think it was about malcolm little, the little boy that -- what was in him that allowed him to become malcolm x the man >> hat my grandparents instilled was the love for education, the love for learning. the love for -- the love of compassion, the importance of compassion. you know, in the book it's a story about his mom in the garden, where she teaches him about caring for insect, caring for vegetables, carrying for butterflies which he came to be a collector which most people wouldn't know but my sisters and i grew up with two huge

collections of butterflies that was our father's. >> beautiful story. so great to see you. this is a beautiful book. well done. thank you so much. all right. that's it. actually the book is on sale starting on newsstands today. thanks very much for watching. and don't forget starting tomorrow msnbc does have a brands new daytime lineup. catch "news nation" with tamron hall at 11:00 a.m., "andrea mitchell reports" at noon and stick around for the launch of the ronan farrow show and my show at 2:00. now it's time for alex wit. >> don't speed past the fact that you have a new show launching tomorrow. you can take a minute. take you want in nine didn't think i had a minute. i had to get to you. >> we'll take all the time we need. congratulations for those of us in this business a long time it's a big deal for you to get

that show. congratulations. good luck. hello to you all. one final medal possibly for the americans in sochi but still is vladimir putin the ultimate gold medal winner at these games? we'll talk to someone who has met him on several occasions and gets their take. president obama about to announce a new plan to help one group of americans. my guess, though, is asking is it too little too late? and the moment you might have missed as michael sam went before the media yesterday. hear from a reporter who was in that room. don't go anywhere. we're right back. what do you guys think of the smell in here? light and airy. fresh. i forgot we were in a taxi. this is a febreze vent clip. do you think we need to replace it? no. no. [ male announcer ] no matter the oil level febreze delivers consistent freshness for up to 30 days. it's 30 days old. wow! no way. i feel like we went on a journey together. [ male announcer ] febreze keeps your car fresh for up to 30 days without fading. so you can breathe happy. cut!

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