from nbc news in washington, the world's longest running announcer: from nbc news in washington, the world's longest running television program, this is "meet the press" with david gregory. good sunday morning. a live picture this morning from the olympic compound in sochi, russia, on the final day of these olympic winter games that will be known not only for the drama of the athletic competition and the warm weather in sochi, but also for the revolt in neighboring ukraine. there is breaking news this morning as protesters continue to pack independence square in the capital of kiev. the whereabouts of president viktor yanukovych are unknown. the bloody crackdown has left dozens dead. ukraine's parliament voted to

remove yanukovych him from power. ianukovych saturday said he would not step down. the battle for ukraine underlies the tension between russia and the united states of late. some believe it harkens back to the cold war. i'm joined now by the president's national security adviser susan rice. welcome back to "meet the press." >> good to be with you, david. >> ambassador, what is the latest? where is yanukovych? are you worried this is a situation teetering towards civil wars? >> david, yanukovych's whereabouts, as you said, are not own at the present. what we do know he picked up in a very orderly fashion and left the capital kiev just after having signed an agreement that was designed to lead to a unity government. from the u.s. point of view, our interests have been clear all along. we want to see a de-escalation of the violence. we want to see constitutional

change. we want to see democratic elections in very short order, and the opportunity for the people of ukraine to come together in a coalition unity. that's happening. >> is the united states on the side of the protests? >> the united states is on the side of the ukrainian people. they have indicated three months ago when this began than president yanukovych, his decision to turn away from europe was not the choice of the ukrainian people. the ukrainian people expressed themselves peacefully. they were met with violence, and that did not end well for yanukovych. >> does he have to go, in the president's mind? >> he has gone. >> but does he have to relinquish power? >> he has gone, david. this is an interesting and complicated situation, as you know. yanukovych has lost enormous legitimacy despite having originally been democratically elected. by turning on his people, by using violence in the streets and flouting the will of the people. >> he's saying he's not stepping

down. >> but he left kiev, packed up in an orderly fashion, took his stuff, his furniture with him. this was not fleeing in a very disorderly fashion. so now he is in a place that will reveal itself. yesterday we knew where he was. today, we're not so sure. the fact is he's not leading at the present. >> in foreign affairs, as in other things, location matters, right? location, location, location. i want to show viewers the map. ukraine is a huge country, 46 million people. but look where it is. it's on the doorstep of russia. that certainly matters to russian president vladimir putin, who very much views ukraine within his sphere of influence. half the country, big east/west divide, half to the country to the east. millions of them speak russian, identify with russia. the president spoke with putin. was his message pointedly back off here? let ukraine follow its own course? >> the president's message was look, we have a shared interest

in a ukraine that remains unified, whole, independent, and is able to exercise the will of its people freely. at that point, putin was in agreement. they were both able to say that they wanted to see the implementation of the agreement that had been signed on friday. that agreement is consistent with our principles and consistent, in fact, david, with where the situation is going. we are going to have a unity government. we are going to have near term elections. we are going to have constitutional reform. that reflects the will of the ukrainian people and the interests of the united states and europe. >> putin is viewed widely, as economists put it, as the architect of this bloody crackdown. do you not fear this could take an ominous turn, that russia after the olympic games could decided to perhaps send forces in, to restore the kind of government that russia would like to see? after all, it was putin who guaranteed $15 billion of loans to yanukovych so that they would reject the west, that they would reject the european union.

>> that would be a grave mistake. it's in nobody's interest to see the violence return and the situation escalate. there is not an inherent contradiction, david, between a ukraine that has longstanding historic and cultural ties to russia and a modern ukraine that wants to integrate more closely with europe. >> isn't it interesting i heard the president say, we don't want to look at this like the cold war. doesn't vladimir putin look at this sphere of influence very much in a cold war context? >> he may, but if he does, that's a pretty dated perspective that doesn't reflect where the people of ukraine are coming from. this is not about the u.s. and russia. this is about whether the people of ukraine have the opportunity to fulfill their aspirations and be democratic and be part of europe, which they choose to be. >> is this a good thing? as you see this kind of ferment three years ago, the arab spring in egypt, you see this

democratic ferment in the ukraine and venezuela and other places. does president obama view this as a positive sign? >> democracy is a good thing, david. sometimes the making of it is very messy. there can be setbacks, it can be uneven. we all know through many examples in history that democracies are more stable, they protect their people, more peaceful. they're more able to deliver economic opportunity to their people. so over time, this trajectory is a good one. >> yet, as americans are paying attention to this, i talk to people, they may not understand all the complications of ukraine and the split toward the european union versus russia. but what they do see is, they see vladimir putin trying to shore up a sphere of influence. they see the russians releasing this tape of our diplomat victoria nuland talking about the opposition and the political future of ukraine. they see russia talking about the u.s. meddling in its area, giving political asylum to edward snowden, blocking the united states when it comes to interests in syria. why shouldn't americans look at vladimir putin and russia today as an enemy? >> david, first of all, we have

to be very pragmatic, and president obama has been exceedingly pragmatic about our dealings with russia. there are areas where we can cooperate with them, there are areas where we disagree bitterly with them. look at both sides of the ledger. we will have been able to reach a new and very important arms control with them, the new s.t.a.r.t. treaty. we've been able to cooperate on afghanistan and russia's role in enabling us to move our equipment and personnel in and out of afghanistan, very important. on iran we've been working together on the effort to use diplomacy to see if we can't obtain a nuclear agreement. they have been cooperative in that. on the other hand, we differ bitterly over issues of human rights. we differ over syria. we differ over their treatment of lgbt persons, and we differ over a number of issues. the fact of the matter is, we should cooperate where we can. where we can't agree and don't agree, we should be very plain about that and stand up for that, which we do. >> don't you understand the perspective of americans who may not be in the foreign policy

establishment who say, when is enough enough? when do you confront putin at some point? >> we do call him on it and the president is plain and forceful in his dealings with putin. but it's not necessary, nor is it our interest, to return to a cold war construct which is long out of date and which doesn't reflect the realities of the 21st century. >> i mentioned one of the areas where the russians have been so unhelpful, and secretary of state john kerry was really forceful in his criticism of russia this past week. that's about syria. this is how president obama described syria a couple of weeks ago on the situation there. >> we still have a horrendous situation on the ground in syria. the state of syria itself is crumbling. that is bad for syria. it is bad for the region. it is bad for global national security. >> and yet, this deterioration that the president describes follows the president issuing a

red line for syria over chemical weapons and then stepping back from that. now you have the horrendous situation he describes. assad is stronger with russia's help. al qaeda and other jihadis are present in syria in an incredibly ominous way, and 95.5% of the most dangerous chemical weapons remain in that country. isn't it time for a new u.s. strategy? >> david, look, nobody is content with the situation in syria. from a humanitarian point of view, it's horrific. from a national security point of view, it's deteriorating. there's no question. we're constantly reviewing our options and we're constantly looking at ways to accomplish our objective. let me be clear about what that objective is. first of all, we don't want to see terrorists and the threat emanate from syria. we're concerned about the growing extremist presence there. we believe it's critical that assad leave power and that there be a transitional government formed by mutual consent and that the institutions of the syrian state remain intact. we don't want to see the state fragment.

which is why -- >> but the principles -- >> davsd david, it's important to understand this. i think folks need to understand. which is why we have tried to pursue a diplomatic resolution, not because we're naive and think there isn't a real hot war on the ground. but at the end of the day, unless and until there's a political situation, this thing is not going to be resolved. it's not going to be resolved on the battlefield. so we've been pursuing multiple -- >> you say that you met with intelligence chiefs from the region, the saudis and others who want more lethal aid provided to the rebels to tip the balance and actually take assad out. is the u.s. prepared to escalate on the ground to achieve a different result on the battlefield? >> the united states is actively supporting the moderate opposition with material support, with political support. and that support is increasing, david. and we're doing it in consultation and in coordination with countries in the region. we're also the largest supplier of humanitarian assistance. and yesterday, because of u.s. leadership and that of other partners, we were able to get a resolution in the yunited natios

security council that binds the syrian government to allow humanitarian assistance in. >> you talk about the humanitarian assistance. the level of suffering is huge. the fact that assad has killed about a million people have died. the refugee crisis adding numbers to that by almost another million. i mean, the scale of mass suffering is huge in syria. >> david, i think it's more like 100,000. >> excuse me. i misspoke. 100,000 killed. i was speaking about the refugee number, i apologize. but the scale of mass suffering is huge. senator mccain has said that future presidents will apologize for what the u.s. has failed to do now. you've been asked in the past about mass suffering, genocide in rwanda and president clinton's admitted failure to intervene. and you worked on those issues. this is what you told the atlantic back in september of 2001. "i swore to myself that if i ever faced such a crisis again, i would come down on the side of dramatic action going down in flames if that was required."

how does that view influence the advice you give to the president on syria? >> first of all, david, this is not a genocide. it's a horrific civil war that has spilled over and infused the neighboring states. it's one that we have worked very hard to end through support to the opposition, humanitarian assistance, through active and aggressive diplomacy, and david, we have the every interest in trying to bring this conflict to a conclusion, but if the alternative here is to intervene with american boots on the ground as some have argued, i think that the judgment the united states has made and the president of the united states has made is that is not in the united states' interest. we are very much committed to trying to work to resolve this conflict, but in a way that doesn't insert the united states back into a hot, bloody conflict in the middle of the middle east. >> this is a complicated time for the world, as you know better than anybody. if you think about democratic ferment around the globe, you think about american

retrenchment from afghanistan and iraq, sectarian division in syria and iraq. there's been some criticism of president obama about just what his view of the world is in his foreign policy. he wrote this in "audacity of hope." he wrote, "without a well articulated strategy that the public supports and the world understands, america will lack the legitimacy and ultimately the power it needs to make the world safer than it is today." what is that view of the world that president obama has that he seeks legitimacy for? >> president obama views the united states as the leading and most important global power because of the power of our economy, the power of our values, the power of our military. we are and will remain the most important country in the world and without our leadership, which we exercise every day, actively from africa to the middle east to asia, the world would not be nearly as stable and as prosperous as it is.

now, it is complicated, as you said. there are setbacks and there are difficult circumstances, but david, look what the united states is doing around the world. we're actively working to try to bring a negotiated resolution finally to the conflict between israelis and palestinians, and as difficult and fraught as that is, we're making progress. because of united states leadership, we have the prospect of resolving the iranian nuclear program through diplomacy. we don't know that it will succeed, but we're closer to that goal than we have ever been. >> you don't worry about a potential for stalemate as you already hear the iranians say that the idea of removing missiles is off the table? >> david, there's always the potential this doesn't succeed. but we have already halted the progress of the iranian nuclear program and begun to roll it back in critical ways. for six months, this program will be set back, and the timelines for them to achieve any kind of breakout have been expanded. in the meanwhile, we have the potential to explore a comprehensive peaceful

resolution to the iranian nuclear program. that is not something that we could say six months ago, and it is very substantially a product of american diplomacy. and it's indicative of the way we have approached conflicts around the world where we are actively involved in trying to resolve them, from africa to asia to the middle east. >> when you were last here, ambassador rice, it was an eventful morning on a story of benghazi and the horrible attack on our compound there. we haven't seen you in awhile. as you look back at your involvement in all of that, do you have any regrets? >> david, no. because what i said to you that morning and what i did every day since was to share the best information that we had at the time. the information i provided, which i explained to you, was what we had at the moment, it could change.

i commented that this was based on what we knew on that morning, was provided to me and my colleagues and indeed to congress by the intelligence community and that's been well validated in many different ways since. and that information turned out, in some respects, not to be 100% correct. but the notion that somehow i or anybody else in the administration misled the american people is patently false, and i think that that's been aptly demonstrated. >> the politics of this are still intense. do you believe it cost you the secretary of state job? >> david, i don't know. what i do know is that i have a great job. it's the greatest honor in the world to work for the president of the united states and on behalf of the american people. and i couldn't ask for anything more. >> we know, as was said at that time and has been found later, that security at the compound was a gaping deficiency. but it's also an issue of finding the people responsible for this attack. the president spoke forcefully about that during the presidential debates. this is what he said in october

of 2012. >> we are going to find out who did this, and we are going to hunt them down because one of the things that i've said throughout my presidency is when folks mess with americans, we go after them. >> 17 months later, are we any closer to finding who was responsible? >> yes, i think you've heard the attorney general speak to this. the investigation is ongoing and it has indeed made progress. but the point is we will get the perpetrators. we will stay on it until this gets done. and if you need any proof of that, recall the capture operation that occurred not long ago in libya against somebody who attacked the united states many years ago in africa. the united states stays on the case. this president, our president obama, has said that we will do what it takes to bring the perpetrators to justice. and, indeed, we will. >> finally, i just want to -- on a final point about ukraine and what you will be monitoring and watching for today and in the days to come.

>> well, most importantly, david, we want to obviously see a de-escalation of the violence. for the last few days, things have been much more peaceful. that is welcome and it's something we want to see sustained. the parliament is actively involved now in choosing this transitional government, setting the date for elections, and appointing acting heads of ministries. we want to shore that up, and very importantly, we want to cooperate with partners in europe, the imf, the russians if they're prepared to participate, to help the ukrainian economy which is very, very fragile. they need to reform and they need financing. and that will be very much a part of our shared efforts. >> do you think the united states has a big financial role to play in helping? >> the united states will play a role along with our partners in europe. if russia chooses to participate, they would be welcome. and of course, the imf is the big player on the block in this respect. >> susan rice, appreciate it very much. coming next here, we're going to get a sense of what's happening

in ukraine on the ground from our chief foreign correspondent richard engel in kiev. plus our roundtable, insights and analysis, david brooks, chris matthews, judy woodruff and helene cooper with their reaction to ambassador rice and also america's role in the word coming up here on "meet the press." corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups. like carpools... polly wants to know if we can pick her up. yeah, we can make room. yeah. [ male announcer ] ...office space. yes, we're loving this communal seating. oh, it's great. yeah. [ male announcer ] the best thing to share? a data plan. ♪ new at&t mobile share value plans for business. our best value plans ever. for example, you can get 10 gigs of data to share. and 5 lines would be $175 a month. plus you can add a line anytime for $15 a month. sharing's never been better for business. ♪

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we're back. we're back. you're looking live at independence square in kiev, the capital of ukraine. before we get to our round table, fast-moving developments as we've been saying all morning there. i want to go to our chief foreign correspondent richard engel. he's live in the capital, as i said, kiev. richard, good morning. >> reporter: good morning, david. the parliament here has appointed its speaker as the new interim president, and an arrest warrant has been issued for, i guess we can describe him now as

former president yanukovych although he claims he is still president. there were never more than 20,000 demonstrators in the square behind me, but in less than a week they managed to change the balance of power in europe and central asia. the revolution began with a fiery miscalculation by the government when last tuesday, riot police tried to storm a three-month-old protest camp in the center of kiev. the demonstrators held their ground, setting bonfires to keep the police at bay. police couldn't take the square, and by the next morning, they were reduced to throwing stones. the police didn't have much food or shelter either. we saw them exhausted, sleeping on the streets. by day three, protesters felt they had the upper hand and charged police lines. then the government made a second tragic mistake. riot police opened fire, killing nearly 80 demonstrators.

in minutes, volunteers converted a nearby hotel into a field hospital. >> yanukovych, with support of russia, tries to kill ukraine. >> reporter: the u.s. and other nations threatened sanctions and under pressure from europe, ukraine's pro-moscow president yanukovych agreed to limit his authority and hold new elections by the end of the year. the protesters sensed weakness and chose to push on. they occupied kiev, starting with the presidential offices. police abandoned their posts. so is today your liberation day? >> i hope so. >> reporter: yanukovych fled for eastern ukraine, and demonstrators entered his chalet. kiev fell without a shot. hungry for information, people pressed their faces to the gates of parliament for updates broadcast on loud speakers. parliament was taking over the government. for the demonstrators, yanukovych was a russian puppet.

>> i'm not against russia, just i'm against putin. maybe he wants to return something like that. >> reporter: this week, vladimir putin's real politics met 21st century internet politics as tahrir square-style seized demonstrations aimed to moscow's doorstep making russia wonder will there be more? is this the start of a eurasian spring? demonstrators say they will stay in this square to act as an insurance policy during this transition of power. >> richard, thank you very much. this morning, i'm joined by our roundtable, coanchor of the pbs "newshour" judy woodruff, "new york times" columnist david brooks, host of "hardball" chris matthews and national security correspondent helene cooper of the times. a big fast moving with great importance. i come back, chris, to the idea

of this being a high stakes moment between the united states and russia. it's just not just about ukraine. >> it's so familiar too, because i grew up with rooting for the captive nations of eastern europe, catholic school, a lot of ukrainians went to school with us. we rooted like hell for them against the soviet union. we spent is the entire cold war avoiding face to face military conflict with the soviet union. we didn't want to fight them. i think we're on the same tricky slope right now. make our values clear but don't let it get to be the russia and putin who is very much like the soviet union fighting over turf. don't let it become that because that means real trouble. >> that, judy, is what you heard ambassador rice insist on, that that's not how president obama wants this to be viewed. >> that's right. you asked her about, is this a return to the cold war? certainly that's how putin sees it. you heard her say, that's not how we see it.

but for the united states, it is crucial in that it affects europe's stability. it's another place. the u.s. needs russia right now to work with us on syria. you asked her about syria. the u.s. needs russia to work with us on iran. these are countries that have a direct relationship right now to some of the international issues we care the most about. but at the same time, david, we can't forget about the people of ukraine. this has all happened very fast. they are facing an incredibly uncertain period right now. economically, they are in a -- somebody said to me they've gone from being the breadbasket of that part of the world to being a basket case. the imf, the role of the u.s., it all matters right now. >> i just think, too, as i think about why this matters, it is ultimately about the united states and russia, but it's also about what america stands for in the rest of the world, david. what is our voice? what is the president's voice? is it a foreign policy that's defined by its limitations or by its potential? and you look at, you know, this

democratic ferment on the streets. it's not just happening there. it's happening in lots of parts of the world. >> we've got a big test coming up. the crucial battlefield is in putin's mind. he's seen an autocrat fall on his border. he's got be thinking about himself. so he's thinking, this guy fell because he was a day late, a dollar short. he wasn't tough enough. putin is probably going to want to crack down more, possibly sparking a counter. he's thinking about what about my eurasia vision? and the second thing, what about crimea? do i let ukraine break up? no, i don't. i do what i have to what i did in georgia. this is a potential epic conflict between us and them. what the u.s. is doing, i think pretty well, give the obama administration credit, trying to get ukraine to a place where they don't force putin to make these decisions, getting the imf involved, getting the opposition to unify, getting this legal. the de-escalation that susan

rice talked about is the core to our strategy done as effectively as we can. >> helene, i was struck by josh marchell in the talking points memo blog this week where he took on the idea this is a cold war again. he basically said stop it. russia doesn't matter. this is part of what he wrote. he said russia still has nuclear wepens, but in the absence of anything to fight about, they simply aren't the same kind of threat other than the fact that it's dangerous to have so many of them around in the world. at the end of the day, russia, meaning the nuclear weapons, russian just doesn't matter that much in the early 21st century world, certainly not as any sort of primary threat to the united states, let along existential threat to the united state. >> i wonder if he was talking to mitt romney who said that russia was our number one strategic threat back during the campaign. i think that's why you're seeing the obama administration reaction is not over the top because at the end of the day, what we need to remember is this what's happening in ukraine matters so much more to vladimir putin than it ever will to us.

and that's why -- i mean, this is his backyard. this is his sphere of influence. he sees things and the russians tend to see this so much as a zero sum game. the americans are ahead and they're behind. and so what chris was saying, i thought, was really interesting. this is so familiar. ten years ago, we saw this almost the same scenario, not quite coming to too close to civil war, but saw the same thing in the ukraine with the presidential elections where russia tried to influence, it turned off the gas pass and that's when we saw yanukovych beaten, but he ended up back in power. and you're seeing the same thing over and over again, and we need to remember just how important this is to russia. at the end of the day, it's not the number one priority for the united states. >> and, in effect, what happened ten years ago laid the seeds for what happened today because there was the orange revolution, and yet, the victors fought among themselves. it was a messy outcome. yanukovych took over. the corruption has become rampant. you're now looking at a country

where, instead of getting better, they had that golden moment, that opportunity, but they've gotten much more complicated. >> i think this will be a major issue for ten years. this is a civilization scene between these two places. ukraine sits on the middle of that scene. if putin goes into ukraine either in a heavy way or am a more heavy-handed way than he has, whether in crimea or the eastern part, if the country falls apart, then europe is sucked in. you've got to really a gigantic part of the world, russia which essentially has a failing system, an economy based on corruption and petro dollars. the talent leaving, a gigantic part of the world more or less imploding. it's hard for me to not see how that is not a major issue. >> chris, i want to talk about obama. i do think that this becomes a leadership challenge. you heard susan rice say, it's not in our interest to go into syria. there's a lot of agreement about that. but nevertheless, you have another country falling apart,

that's syria. iraq looks like it's listing a bit because of sectarian division. do you think this president has been clear enough about what america stands for? >> i think he's clear about what he stands for, which is not to get involved in any other countries. it is consistent with the american people's sense of pulling back. what i found interesting over the weekend not the olympics but in ukraine, they're wearing ski masks, which told me that the people involved with the overthrow of the president there are not at all comfortable that this is going to hold, that the russians are coming. why would you wear ski masks after you've overthrown the guy? you don't want to be identified. i think they're worried what's coming next. the russians coming in, at least a portion of the country. >> let me bring the conversation back home. meanwhile, back in washington where things have been a little bit quiet. but in that quiet there's a great message. this is our political team described in our first read blog that they put out on friday. i'll put it on the screen. both democrats and republicans have cleared the decks of

anything that could divide their parties before the 2014 midterms. republicans have essentially taken immigration off the table as well as the threat of default or a government shutdown. meanwhile the white house has now remove chained cpi from its budget and slowed its push for fast track authority. both sides are employing a lets do no harm strategy. the white house is saying we want to spend more on the president's budget and get back to some of the infrastructure priorities. that's campaign mode. >> it's all bad for the country. let's face it. what are the things that are going to help the economy? immigration would be a huge boost for the country. a fast track or trade deal across the atlantic and pacific, huge boost. chained cpi would save a trillion dollars in the second decade off the federal budget debt. these are all very good policies where there is majority support and where in the old days in washington, you would cobble together a bipartisan coalition and get rid of the fringes. right now, the fringes have veto power over everything else and nobody's found a solution to

that. >> so right. by the way, used to be the parties would help each other to make up for each other's differences. now they accentuate each other. to the democrats, this election a rosy scenario is to lose five senate seats not six. they could lose ten. they've said if we're going to lose ten seats potentially, and they could do that, a big sweep, they're going back to their battle stations. nothing on social security. all out talk about minimum wage, nothing on trade. david's dead right. nothing is going to get down because both parties have gone to their base. >> something that could make a difference is the president, his approval rating. it's in the low 40s. as long as it stays in that range, the democrats really have to worry about not only losing seats in the house but also losing control of the senate. if he can figure out a way at this point, and here we are february, to get his numbers up somehow, i think that helps across the board. but right now, you're right. both parties, both parties have gone into their bunker and they're waiting, they're sitting there waiting to see, you know, what happens on the campaign

trail. it's all out of washington. >> helene, it's so interesting that in a bit of this vacuum campaigning goes on, foreign policy comes back in in respect. still a lot of focus on hillary clinton income 2016 on this program, rand paul raising the specter of bill clinton as a sexual predator, reviving the lewinsky scandal, the 1990s return. here's lindsey graham facing a primary fight in the south carolina, who is being challenged because of his positive comments about s secretary of state clinton and her record. here's a portion of that ad running against him. >> i think she is a good role model, one of the most effective secretaries of states, greatest ambassadors for the american people that i've known in my lifetime. secretary hillary clinton. >> isn't 20 years of lindsey graham in washington enough? >> so here it comes, right? the state department record and proximity to hillary clinton. >> that's so funny. i think what's really

interesting about this, though, gets to something that the republicans should actually be worried about coming up in the midterms is that you know, they are in danger of having in their primary season ante up with candidates too far to the right even for the republicans. they need people who are more moderate if they're going to have any chance of taking the senate from the democrats in november. and so if they go too far to the right, if you start coming in, people like lindsey graham from the right, you could end up in another dangerous situation for republican candidates. >> should be said lindsey graham was a house manager in the impeachment of bill clinton. not like he's not a conservative guy. he's a pretty conservative guy. we complain about washington but so the voters of south carolina get a chance to make a decision. do they want a guy who is a very conservative senator? he's a very effective senator. the people of south carolina, do they want an effective senator

or a talk show host? >> ironically, lindsey graham was among the most confrontational on the issue of benghazi. he chooses his issues. >> could i defend, well, former ambassador rice, now rnc director, when she was on the program with you, if you look at the bipartisan report of the senate intelligence committee beacon the pain points it was a copycat situation, came out of what happened which came out of that crazy video out of los angeles but it did track and the language used by her that day which is extremism rather than terrorism had come from the intelligence community. the refusal to mention al qaeda in that context was directly a decision by ta tray us -- petraeus as dci. so it wasn't that bad a performance. and for them to make a big deal about this thing i think is not going to get very far. >> the intriguing about that appearance on this program and others by susan rice that

hillary clinton didn't make it, and whether it cost her her job as secretary of state, she didn't engage in that, as i didn't necessarily expect her to today. >> that's right. i think the republicans have beaten that drum. they'll continue to beat that drum. but i don't see it playing a central role in the election. i mean we all know, we've said this 1,000 times, politics of six months from now much less two, three years from now might as well as be 100 years away. we dote know what's going to happen. >> ted nugent will stay something stupid. >> we'll come back with the roundtable later on. up next, a live report on the capture of one of the world's most wanted criminals, the arrest of mexico's top drug lord. plus, a story from our harry smith that you're not going to want to miss about a member of the 1980 miracle on ice u.s. hockey team who sold his most precious memory of that magical year, his gold medal. that's coming up. ♪

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>> you're looking at the world's top drug lord, el c welcome back. you're looking at the world's top drug lord, "el chapo" guzman arrested by pacific resources in mazatlan on saturday. guzman has long been considered the most wanted figure in the mexican drug war that have left tens of thousands of mexicans dead. mark potter is live for us in miami with an inside look at the man responsible for much of the drug traffic to the united states. mark, good morning. >> good morning, david. to the mexican government and u.s. drug agents, the arrest of joaquin guzman, "el chapo" or "shorty," is equivalent to the il canning of pablo escobar in

columbia or even osama bin laden in the war on terror. el chappo has been sought for years and legends grew he was incidence -- invincible. but now he has been caught. the arrest this weekend by mexican marines of joaquin "el chappo" guzman ends this year's long reign as the man widely believed to be the most powerful and prolific drug trafficker in the world. the drug cartel he headed were infamous for their levels of brutality throughout mexico and the u.s. boarder. >> when most of america thinks of organized crime, they naturally think of guys like john gotti, sammy "the bull" gravano, even al capone. but the reality of the situation is chapo guzman made those guys look like boy scouts. >> authorities say the sinaloa cartel has long been mexico's longest drug trafficking organization supplying with the united states with meth, heroin and cocaine.

>> and 80 to maybe 90% of all the drugs that came into this country belong tong chapo guzman. >> officials say guzman was arrested at this condominium in the resort city of mazatlan and that he offered no resistance and no one was hurt. sources say u.s. agents from the dea, i.c.e. and the u.s. marshal office supplied mexico with intelligence leading to the arrest. guzman has also been indicted in a half dozen u.s. cities as far north as new york and chicago where he was named public enemy number one. in addition to his reputation for extreme violence, especially while seizing drug routes in other cartel, the group is known for its use of tunnels to sneak tons of drugs under the u.s. border fence. forbes magazine named him one of the world's richest men and authorities say he spent hundreds of millions of dollars a year to corrupt officials in mexico and the united states. >> he's turned more and more on our country. to corrupt law enforcement on our side of the border and our judicial system. law enforcement, prosecutors, judges, and prison officials. >> reporter: after guzman escaped from a maximum security

prison 13 years ago, by hiding in a laundry truck, he then built his cartel in the rugged mountains and his exploits became legendary and were even celebrated in songs. but this morning, it's a different story. with guzman back behind bars. and a question now is where will guzman be held and tried -- in mexico or the united states? there are also concerns his arrest could lead to another outbreak of violence over the next year as rival traffickers try to take over his routes. david? >> mark, thank you so much. there's so much intrigue about getting him this time and previous times that they tried to find guzman that were unsuccessful. >> well, both mexican and u.s. officials say they had been tailing guzman for the last month. and in the one instance just missed him by seconds. finally figuring out the way he escaped was by using a tunnel dug beneath the house where he was hiding. this weekend they were on to that and they got him. david?

>> mark potter for us in miami this morning. a fascinating story. thank you so much. we're going to take a break here. up next, remembering our colleague, garrick utley, a man for all seasons at nbc news and a former moderator of "meet the press." plus later on this final day of the olympics, tough times for one member of the famous u.s. miracle on ice team and why he was forced to sell his coveted gold medal. >> 20 years of my life was gone. however, that memory will never go away. edward jones. this is shirley speaking. how may i help you? oh hey, neill, how are you? how was the trip? [ male announcer ] with nearly 7 million investors... [ shirley ] he's right here. hold on one sec. [ male announcer ] ...you'd expect us to have a highly skilled call center. kevin, neill holley's on line one. ok, great. [ male announcer ] and we do. it's how edward jones makes sense of investing. ♪

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>> coming up here, it truly was one of the greatest coming up here, it truly was one of the greatest achievements in modern sports history. but for one player on the u.s. miracle on ice team, tough times forced him to part with his gold medal. harry smith has the story. you don't want to miss it. that's right for you. with easy step-by-step guidance, we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. start your business today with legalzoom. this is the creamy chicken corn chowder. i mean, look at it. so indulgent. did i tell you i am on the... [ both ] chicken pot pie diet! me too! [ male announcer ] so indulgent, you'll never believe they're light. 100-calorie progresso light soups. we thought it was going to be just another phase, but she's a total natural. which makes us karate parents. one day i noticed her gi looked dingier than the other kids. but now since tide plus bleach alternative has more whitening power... i used it to wash her gi and now she's all...pow!

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here now some of this week's images to remember. here now, some of this week's images to remember. this week's images to

remember. we got sad news around here friday morning that we lost a great journalist and colleague, garrick utley. utley's career spanned the globe. as a foreign correspondent, he covered major moments in history, from the vietnam war to the soviet-led invasion of prague and, of course, politics here at home. he moderated this program from 1989 through 1991. during that period, he reported on the tee an tiananmen square protests in china and the fall of the berlin wall. >> there is certainly no more appropriate place to talk about the breathtaking events of the past several days and the prospects for the future than right here on what has been the frontline of the cold war. >> our friend tom brokaw remembered utley this way. "garrick embodied the history of nbc news for most of the latter half of the 20th century.

and he will be greatly missed." garrick utley was 74 years old. go to our website and watch utley's final signoff as moderator of "meet the press" in 1991. so ally bank has a raise your rate cd that won't trap me in a rate. that's correct. cause i'm really nervous about getting trapped. why's that? uh, mark? go get help! i have my reasons. look, you don't have to feel trapped with our raise your rate cd. if our rate on this cd goes up, yours can too. oh that sounds nice. don't feel trapped with the ally raise your rate cd. ally bank. your money needs an ally.

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olympic games. the u.s. hasn't won the gold medal in men's hockey since 1980. that was the year, of course, of the famous miracle on ice triumph against the soviet union, still considered one of the greatest wins by an underdog in sports history. as harry smith reports, there's

one member of that celebrated team still searching for a miracle. >> reporter: although a public rink in st. claire shores, michigan, a man laces up his skates. when he gets on the ice, he moves with neither grace nor speed. but that doesn't matter to mark wells. that he's back on skates at all is remarkable. maybe even a kind of miracle. wells knows a bit about such things. he was a member of the 1980 u.s. olympic hockey team, the team that beat the soviets and went on to win the gold medal. this is at the end of you guys beating the soviet union. >> yes. >> reporter: is there a word beyond elation -- >> no. >> reporter: that can describe the feeling? >> no. you know, if i could find one word, i'd be lucky. it was more a feeling, a feeling within. god was there.

it was magic. >> reporter: in 1980, no one could imagine a thaw in the cold war. nor could anyone imagine beating the soviets in hockey. in international play, no one was better, not even close. back then, we believed the victory was a triumph for our way of life. and we meant it. you guys are all standing there and the gold medals are being put over your heads. what was that like? >> at first, i didn't believe it. even though i'd been through all the trials and tribulations, to this day, i was the hero. and i knew the feeling of being a hero in my country. it wasn't about hockey anymore. >> reporter: after the games, wells would bounce around pro hockey, but soon found himself flat on his back, disabled by agonizing back pain.

he underwent surgery. after surgery, became a recluse, ran out of money and did the unthinkable -- he sold his medal for $40,000. years later it would bring $310,000 at auction. you're getting ready to make this decision to sell this medal, symbolic of maybe the most important moments of your life. how hard was it to make the decision? >> how hard? it felt like i died. >> reporter: it felt like you died? >> 20 years of my life was gone. however, that memory will never go away. >> reporter: it was the memory of what happened on the ice in lake placid that helped pull wells out of his despair. he started moving again, started living again. >> i had the dream of walking one day and that's, again, going

back to being an olympian that has put me at this level today. to be able to do this interview. and that's why i'm here to tell the world, nothing's impossible. >> reporter: wells is working on a book about his life. he has become a father and, against doctors' orders, gotten back on skates. >> i've overcome and it is, to me, a miracle, of course. we created a miracle. why can't do i it again? >> reporter: it's a second miracle on ice. >> exactly. that's the way i see it. whoo! >> reporter: for "meet the press," harry smith, nbc news. >> and as harry mentioned, mark wells' gold medal was eventually sold at an auction in november of 2010 for $310,000. the buyer was identified only as a rancher from the western u.s.

we're back with our roundtable with the final thoughts on these olympic games and the medal count, which we can share with everybody and put on the screen. there is some advantage to home field advantage. it is the russians who have the highest total, david brooks, and the highest gold. but didn't win it in hockey. >> i once had a conversation with mitt romney. you can shave the ice to favor you. there is there's an actual advantage to hosting the winter games. i of course model my life after the x games. my costume, everything. i thought shaun white's grace in defeat was one of the highlights of the game for me. he is known as a pretty competitive guy in that culture but he handled it well. anybody can win well. losing well is hard. >> judy, did you enjoy these games? >> i want to pay tribute to the women athletes. we don't celebrate women's athletes, i think, enough in this country. whether they're winning or losing, the half pipe, kaitlyn

harrington, all the women were supporting each other. >> i'm all slope style. i think slope style is great. our women did so wonderfully. >> even in ice hockey. >> mikeala shiffrin as well. >> i got josh christensen in the air, up in the air, doing all this stuff in the air, and way up there. he finally comes down perfectly. i think some sports like baseball, i don't think it can get much better every year. basketball probably gets better every year, football maybe, but these sports are better than they were ever before. >> we have to say, too, for all the security fears, fear of terrorism and violence, the games up until this final moment have come off well. >> they have. i mean, i think that's because we're so worried about it before handle. we gave vladimir putin a giant gift of a good luck charm. >> exactly. all right.

thank you all very much. that is all for us today. we'll be back here next week. tonight don't miss the olympic closing ceremonies here on nbc. and coming up this friday on "today," an exclusive interview with first lady michelle obama. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press. our interests have been clear all along. we want to see a de-escalation of the violence. we want to see constitutional change. we want to see democratic elections. >> what does putin do here? i think the message has to be sent to him to let the ukrainian people determine their own future. >> keeping a close eye on kiev. good afternoon. i'm melissa roadwilissa rehberg craig melvin. out of public view. >> chapo guzman's arrest will have a significant impact on