>> sweetening the water and coloring it in and i sticking it in a giant can. >> how do we get people to stop moment? tax it. thank you very much. appreciate it. biden enters the ring. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with this. earlier today, barbara walters popped the question to vice president biden. if hillary clinton runs for president, does that mean you won't run? isn't that what you have said? biden couldn't have been more emphatic. he said he never said he wouldn't run if hillary did. quote, whether she runs or not will not affect my decision. he went on to say that his wife

jill was supportive of his decision, and that being a good vice president the next several years was a perfect way to make himself a solid presidential candidate. so are we ready? is the democratic party ready for this? is the country ready for a showdown between the vice president of the united states and the former first lady, former u.s. senator, former secretary of state? and why is biden saying all this now? and who is he saying it to? is he serving notice to secretary clinton that the presidential nomination is not hers for the asking? is it to tell bill clinton that this march through a second clinton presidency is going to be a bit messy? is it to tell the democrats overall out in the country that they'll have a choice in the winter and spring of 2016? well, the question for me, why is joe biden, an experienced leader, willing to pay the price for what he is now putting out there, the need to back up his words with an all-out battle for the nomination with someone so many believe has it all locked up. after all, these entry tickets aren't free. why put himself out as vice

president biden has now done if he knows at some point between now and the iowa caucuses, he'll have to pull himself out? or back. howard fineman is editorial director of "the huffington post" and msnbc news political analyst. mark halperin is the co-author of "double down", a great book and msnbc analyst as well. howard, biden doesn't have to say these things. he can say heim not going to talk about that. he can say that's always on people's minds. i don't want to talk about it, barbara. but barbara walters is one tough interviewer, and she stuck at it today. and he was forced to say what he may have wanted to say, but i've never heard him put it so emphatically. i don't care if hillary clinton runs for president. i could run against her. your thoughts. >> well, chris, without committing himself one way or another, i do agree with you. it's the strongest statement that joe biden has yet made as vice president that he may well do this. you asked why he said so.

i think he is a little irritated. i know from talking to friends of his that he is a little irritated about the notion that he would not be considered and that everybody would sort of coronate hillary clinton in advance. i think he thinks there should be a contest. i think he thinks there should be a conversation. and also, don't forget, i'm hearing louisville, kentucky, where bill clinton the former president just campaigned on behalf of the democratic senate candidate without ever mentioning barack obama, without ever mentioning the obama administration. behaving as though the obama administration did not exist and has not existed for the past six years. that's an affront not only to barack obama, but to joe biden. and joe biden is saying hey, wait a minute, clintons. where are we in this narrative? where is the obama/biden administration in this narrative? and i think it's gotten under his skin. >> let me go to mark halperin on this. you heard what i said. why is biden talking about running against hillary? >> well, first of all because barbara walters can get anybody to say anything. that's the gift that she has had.

look, the reality is he wants to be relevant for the next three years. he knows it's possible she won't run. he also -- i think this is less about politics than psychology. the guy looks at his resume as vice president, as chairman of foreign relations, as chairman of judiciary. he looks at his ability to campaign, which he thinks in his own mind is comparable to bill clinton's and i think he believes superior to hillary clinton's. and he looks at a democratic party that is pretty loyal to this administration, as howard suggested. so i think psychologically, he wants to say that he'll do this. he wants to be prepared to do it. he wants to be the leading choice if she doesn't run. but in the end, i still believe, as we've discussed before, chris, if she runs, this is -- it's going to be easy for him to find an exit route because he will not take her on. >> let me tell you something. barbara walters asked a question that was based upon knowledge, i believe, that smart people think that biden is rung. smart people. i know that because i've talked to him. in fact, a very well placed u.s. senator the other day told me he is running.

i don't buy this idea that these are free shots out there like the side of a basketball court and throwing it back when it goes out of bounds. i think he wants to get in this game. he wants to play a role in either intimidating hillary to not rung or letting the word that there is going to be a fight there and maybe have some people come to his side and join him. i'm sorry. back to howard. >> yeah, i think also that there is some biden people around washington and around the country who are incredibly talented, well-connected people who might otherwise if they haven't already been asked to be part of the hillary orbit could be. and i think the other thing he wants to do is say hey, wait a minute, i could get in this thing. i may want to get in this thing. stay with me and i think part of the public statement is for private consumption to what is left. and there is a considerable amount left of the joe biden network around the country.

>> and there are a lot of people out there who think biden would be a hell of a president. he has been goofy sometimes as a politician. but he generally has a very deep thought about foreign policy. here is barbara walters earlier today on "the view" asking the vice president if he would run even if hillary clinton gets into the race. >> you have said if she runs for president, you would not run. >> no, i haven't. >> tell me what you said. >> the only way to run for federal government united states is if you truly believe you're a better position to do what you believe is most needed in the country. i think my knowledge of foreign policy, my engagement with world leaders, my experience is uniquely -- positions me to be -- to follow through on the agenda barack and i have of bringing up world peace in a way that is real and substantive. i also think the middle class is the single focus, what we should be looking at and how to grow it.

so whether she runs or not will not affect my decision. >> well, being barbara walters, she pressed the vice president further, and this is what she got. >> it ultimately comes to family decision, and my wife is supportive. and -- >> but you haven't said no? >> no, i absolutely not have said no. >> okay. that's where i'm looking at it. mark, you think he is not. let's get our cards on the table. you believe in the last minute no matter how far he gets to making this decision, at the last minute he will pull back because he'll never want to face her in a caucus or a primary. >> i just think, chris, although i agree with you he is giving people the impression that he is make active moves, there is no joe biden superpac there is no senators urging him to run. and she is so formidable, and they're such close friends, the only way it is rational to take her on, the only way is if you're willing to rip her face off politically, if you're willing to undermine her personally, historically, policy wise. i just don't see how joe biden could do that. but he wants to be ready. and i'll say again. this is psychological. all he knows is public office. all he knows is rung. and he looks at what he has accomplish and the relevance he wants to have in the last three

years as vice president. giving any other answer to barbara walters, who pressed him, any other answer would show a kind of weakness that joe biden is just not the kind of guy who wants to show that. >> well said. let's go back to howard. you mentioned that bill clinton is back in town. certainly on the campaign trail today out in your area out there in louisville, kentucky. he is out there campaigning for democrat alison lundergan grimes in louisville, who is out there to unseat mitch mcconnell. average of all the polling, grimes is holding on to a one-point lead. mcconnell said he is not scared of the former president stumping for his opponent. he said he welcomes him to kentucky. >> i welcome him back. the last time he ran in 1996, he eked out a narrow victory in kentucky while i beat the current governor by 160,000 votes, 10 points. in 2008, both bill and hillary clinton came to town, including the day before the election, and i won by 100,000 votes.

so i welcome president clinton back to kentucky. every time he has come, it's been really good for me. thanks a lot. >> he is still smiling, howard. your thoughts. and it's time for you to start out thing this race here. you're from out there. you know it. you're the jack germond of louisville, kentucky. is this too close to call early, or is this guy, the old pro just going to wind it up when he needs it? >> i haven't eaten in nearly enough restaurants to be the jack germond of anywhere. but i was in the room today for the fundraiser that bill clinton headlined on behalf of alison grimes. it was an overflow crowd. it was a big crowd. it was a crowd so enthusiastic, it was almost giddy. i haven't seen anything like that in kentucky in a long time. the kentucky democratic party is unified. they're excited. they think they've got a real

shot to make mitch mcconnell out. and i think they probably do. what mitch didn't say is that even though the tea party challenger he is facing in the republican party is not going to win, mitch has spent an enormous amount of money knocking that guy down. and that guy in may could end up still getting perhaps 30% of the vote, if not more. then the question will be whether those republicans who have listened to mcconnell beat up on their tea party favorite, are going to actually come out and vote for mitch. and that's going to require mitch to try to really take down alison grimes, who is a young woman without much of a track record to shoot at. but who is turning into quite a good local political figure. what is interesting about this, as i say, bill clinton never mentioned barack obama. and that's all mitch mcconnell is going to mention. they're going to be talking past each other. and to connect it up to joe biden. the president of the united states, the current president, yeah, he is a grown man and he knows they're southern states that you stay away from, but i think if he and biden are going to come to a point where they're not going to like the fact that

the clintons are going around the country building hillary for 2016 by completely ignoring the obama administration. >> yeah, i think well said. >> and that's what is going on here. that's what's going on here. >> i'm not sure, howard, that even mentioned the president when he was at the podium in the white house press room that day. he just took over there. let me go to mark for the big question. what is the bill clinton scoreboard in 2014 headed towards 2016? if they lose mark pryor in arkansas, his home patch down there, how does he brag about what happened in kentucky? and how does he win if arkansas lose north carolina, maybe even lose a squeaker in kentucky? how does bill clinton do the victory lap? >> well, look, if they lose those races, i think the current president is probably going to be facing more of the responsibility and the burden from the press and from democrats than president clinton. look, we're going to see bill clinton out on the campaign trail. we're going to see joe biden out

on the campaign trail. the question for me is when do we see and how much do we see hillary clinton. is she willing to go out as presidential candidates do in mid terms and campaign? the advantage for her she has as her husband out there reminding people, democrats, but also independents in a lot of the swing states where there are competitive races in the mid terms that the clintons are a team there is some downside to that. but i think we saw today he is still the best in the business when he is into it. and i think coming off 2012 when he was into it, he is going to be into it in 2014 and he'll be very strong. and i think that works to her benefit. and it doesn't help joe biden much at all. >> yeah, i would like to see them campaign together. i think that would be real star quality, both clintons together say in kentucky or in arkansas. howard, can they pull it out in arkansas, or does that go over? >> i don't know. that sounds like -- even though ironically that's where bill clinton is from, that may be the toughest one to rescue. >> yeah. >> i think of the conventional wisdom right now is that landrieu is in a little better shape than some people think. kay hagan has a fight chance. pryor is in deep, deep trouble in arkansas. that's what the word is today. >> maybe bill clinton has once again moved the tent.

the tent may be set up in your town in louisville. the move to new york, it's all possible. thank you, mark halperin. they win where every they go. and they lose after they have left. howard fineman, mark halperin, the war between the states. louisiana governor bobby jindal is going crazy these days broke the peace and went outside the white house and dumped all over his host, that being the president, it was connecticut's dan malloy who came to the host's rescue. dan malloy joins us next. bobby jindal won't answer our calls. jan brewer in arizona, well, apple the computer company says veto it. arizona's two republican senators say veto it, that includes john mccain. the chamber of commerce says veto it. the super bowl host committee says veto it. does arizona really want another martin luther king holiday mess on its hands like the old days?

plus, guess who is benefitting from implementing the health care law? a bunch of republican governors. do you believe it? is not one of them who has expanded medicaid is in political trouble this november. and what's that tell you? and it looks like ted nugent just can't get enough of comparing president obama to guess what? the nazis. he is at it again, just days after making that arm-twisted apology of his. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

well, ted nugent's derogatory comments about president obama haven't hurt greg abbott's chances at being the next governor of texas. a new poll shows about abbott's got ooh big lead down there. let's check the "hardball" scoreboard. according to a new online poll from the texas tribune and the university of texas, abbott, the republican state attorney general, has an 11-point lead over state senator wendy davis. it's abbott, 47. ms. davis, 36. that raises the question why abbott felt the need to campaign with a ted nugent at his side. we'll be right back. you've tried to forget your hepatitis c. it's slow moving, you tell yourself.

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after the country's governs met there with the president yesterday. it's been getting a loft attention, not all good for louisiana governor bobby jindal. in case you missed it, here is what happened. as usual, the governors sounded themes of bipartisanship and camaraderie until jindal took the microphone. jindal broke the kumbahyah spirit taking aim at the president, particularly his push for a federal minimum wage of $10.10, provoking dannel malloy of connecticut to jump in to challenge mr. jindal. >> i heard a question over here about whether he mentioned the minimum wage? yes, he did mention the minimum wage repeatedly to us. what i worry about is this president of the white house seems to be waving the white flag of surrender of after more than five years now under this administration, the obama economy is now the minimum wage economy. i think we can do better than that. i think america can do better than that. >> just one second. until a few moments ago, we were going down a pretty cooperative road.

you just heard what i think ended up being probably the most partisan statement that we've had all weekend. so let's be very clear there are many people like myself who support a minimum wage and an increase in the minimum wage. i don't know what the heck was a reference to white flag when it comes to people making $404 a week. i mean, that's the most insane statement i've ever heard quite frankly. so let's be very clear that we've had a great meeting, and we didn't go down that road. and it just started again, and we didn't start it. >> that was the most partisan statement he's heard all weekend, i want to make sure he hears a more partisan statement. i think we could also grow the economy more if we would delay more of these obamacare mandates. >> bobby jindal is dying down there in the polls, dying in his last year in office, terrible ratings, doing everything he can to prove he is still alive. that was a proof of life from bobby jindal. thank god a grownup jumped in.

by the way, do you outweigh the guy about 75 pounds because i notice you moved over without waiting for him to get out of the way. your thoughts about minimum wage and why they're not the white flag. >> first of all, i'm the youngest of eight. i had to fight for food. i know how to do that kind of stuff. >> by the way, michael steele is with us too. >> we had a good meeting. actually, governs in agreement on how to handle national guard issues, unanimous. we're in agreement on what we can do to improve medicaid and medicare, unanimous agreement. the press conference itself was going very well. jindal i think is trying to gin up his own numbers and gin up his own popularity. i think he thinks he can run for president, which is quite frankly a little bizarre. >> is this the new way in, governor, where you have to talk like rand paul and go after bill clinton, hit him below the belt, do this kind of stuff, really be little bit out of it, risk being over the top in order to get the

attention of the press? because the right wing, i thought about this, you can't go too far right for the republicans these days. there is no far right. it's anywhere you go is there is happy hunting ground. so go crazy against the president right after he fed you, gave you coffee, let you in the white house and on your way out the door, you trash the guy. that seems to be the cool way to behave. your thoughts. >> i think what the next republican product is going to be is foam you can spray around your mouth yourself rather than have to work it up. it really is quite remarkable. we had a good meeting. we are having serious conversations. the governors work on a bipartisan basis, not only when we talk to one another, but very frequently we have to go back to our own states. i'm supporting a minimum wage increase. we've done it already once in connecticut by 45 cents. we want to get to $10.10. let me point this out. the people who will benefit the

most are women. women who are raising families need this raise in our country. and let me point another thing out. just out of louisiana today, a poll that shows that overwhelmingly, folks in louisiana support an increase in the minimum wage. democrats, republicans, and independents. and women support it by 79%. he should get in contact with the voters in his state who understand that $7.25 is not only not a working wage, it's a poverty wage. we need to move people out of poverty. we particularly need to move women out of poverty. and i think he is just out of touch, quite frankly. >> let me go to michael steele in this. i'll be back in a second. this fighting over minimum wage seems like a big loser. first of all, it brings us right back to the 47% of mitt romney. why do you want to not help people who are showing up for work. these aren't welfare people. these are workers. >> understood. and you've just made a leap that is not a legitimate leap. you said well, because we have concerns and reservations about just an open ended let's raise the minimum wage, i'll pick a number and raise it, that we don't care about the poor. the cbo report showed that the biggest loser in any raise in the minimum wage the way the democrats are talking about it is the poor.

so can we step back a moment and get away from the cliff of emotion and look at this thing logically? we get the reality. i grew up in a minimum wage household. i know what that reality is ever single day. i knew what it was growing up. a lot of families know it even harder today. so let's look at how we do this in a way in which we bring the poor into prosperity. i think what jindal did, and we can talk about the appropriateness in that moment standing with a bipartisan group of governors. but i think what he is laying down as a marker saying let's be smart about it. >> governor, are there any downsides, any downsides to having minimum wage go to 10 bucks? >> that's not what he is saying. he was saying he is dead set against it, period. it was the end of the question. he is accusing of the president who has created 46 months of job growth, of raising the white flag.

so with all due respect to what was just said, that's not what he was saying. and quite frankly what he doesn't get is that women in our country deserve to work 40 hours a week and not live in poverty. women in our country deserve a minimum wage that will allow -- lift them out of poverty to raise their children, to raise their families, and to contribute. and if you have a better way to do it, make a suggestion. do you want to increase the earned income tax credit? republicans say no. do you want to find another way to do it? republicans say no. do you want to increase the magic? republicans say no. you can't visit both ways. either you're for women, either you're for building a middle class, or you're against it. and this game that the republicans play with the cbo. listen, the cbo says that obamacare is going to save $1.25 trillion in the next 20 years. but republicans don't accept that. they don't quote the cbo on that. the cbo says what the president has done with respect to supporting the economy has preserved and created over five million jobs.

they never quote that. there is a reality about what is going on statistically. nobel laureates are saying raise the minimum wage. 432 economists have said raise the minimum wage. only republicans in this country say don't raise the minimum wage. >> it's not only republicans. >> can you give some of that juice to the president, governor? president obama, it's too much the professor from yale these days. i just heard a really good machine gun approach to arguing a point. you wouldn't let michael in, which is good, i like that. but most importantly, you had a lot of ammunition. >> but your ammunition is largely wasted rhetoric because -- >> rhetoric? it was solid ad as hell. >> because the governor should know, and you can take this back to your business community and the people who have a concern that there are real effects that you seem to want to gloss over that a small business owner has to take into consideration. sure, we can raise the minimum wage to $10, $15 an hour, but if i'm cutting back on the number of hours you're working, if i'm firing people in order to do that, that's not a balanced

effect to the end result that you want. governor, i've given you your moment. now i'm going to take mine. so the point of the fact is you want to have a one-sided conversation where you want to throw out big statistics and you want to say put women in the focus on women. let's focus on families. let's focus on a whole lot of other people that are not a part of the discussion the way you want to have it. there are three pieces here, not just raise the minimum wage. >> michael, governor, we tried to get jindal to come here, okay. it wasn't a one-sided conversation, just so you know that. >> let me give you a big number. 532 counties have been studied where the minimum wage was raised, and right across the county line it was not. you know what county did better? the county time after time after time, the county that did better was the one that raised the minimum wage. in the south, in the west, in the east, and in the north. now, let me point something else out to you. the vast majority of people earning minimum wage work in the food-related businesses. you don't go across the boarder

to buy your food. you don't go across the boarder to go to a restaurant you. buy it in the state in which you work. so either you're for lifting out of people out of poverty or you're not. i'm going give you a statistic. we have seen surveyed all the folks who work in banks as tellers in the united states. do you know that 30% of the tellers in the united states have to rely on a federal program to not be in poverty, even though they're working 40 hours a week? how do you defend the idea, how do you defend the idea that work 40 hours a week and still live in poverty. >> do you agree with the $10.10 minimum wage? >> i have no problem with raising the minimum wage, but which point is can we do it where we're not relying so much on the emotional side of it. but look at the fax. >> gentlemen, we no there will be a deal and it will have to do with tax cuts for the small businesses. governor, you are a great guest. i love what you did, you were a great stand-up for connecticut. you're a great guy. thanks for coming on. bobby jindal, the doormat is out. just act a little better than you did at the white house. thank you, by michael steele, thank you. >> all right, guys. >> up next, fresh off calling the president a subhuman mongrel, ex-rocker ted nugent has another nazi analogy up his

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my favorite performance of yours all year, state of the union. just killing it in the state of the union. this is just -- look at you. if there was so many finger guns, if there was an nra for finger guns, you would be the president. this is my favorite. this one right here. i don't know if you can pick up on social cues, but he is not that into you. >> time now from the sideshow, as you can see, joe biden joined seth meyers for his late night debut, along with comedian amy poehler. she was right there on the couch. we saw what the vice president had to say about 2016 on "the view" earlier today. but last night he was careful not to overshadow meyers with

what he called a big announcement. >> you've been very open about talking about 2016 and considering what you're going to do. where are you in your thought process? what are you taking into account? >> well, you know, i was planning on making a major announcement tonight. but i decided tonight is your night. >> thank you. thank you. >> so i hope you'll invite me back. >> yes, absolutely. and amy, your 2016 plans? >> oh, i'm going run for president. >> okay, great. next up, it was just three days ago when he made a half hearted apology for calling the president a subhuman mongrel. but now ted nugent has done it again. in an interview on dennis miller's radio show yesterday, the age rocker likened president obama's policies to that of nazi germany. i guess old habits die-hard. >> there was an incrementalism to what happened in germany and other places historically where they came in slowly, and they

started, you know, the power struggle between different races and the power struggle between different elements of society. and they incrementally worked their way in. and i think that's what obamacare. that's what i think most of what he represents the irs. i really believe that what we see with the irs can be compared accurately and historically to the early maneuvers of people like jackbooted thugs like the brownshirts. i really believe that. >> you think we've had enough of these nazi comparisons? maybe we've had enough of nugent. anyway, coming up, what is governor jan brewer going to do than anti-gay bill out there in arizona? she is trapped between the republican lawmakers who passed the darn thing and big business who wants it killed. will money talk? what do you think? this is "hardball," the place for politics. ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." governor jan brewer gets her name in the paper a lot of arizona has until saturday of this week, a few days until now to decide whether to veto a bill that would bolster the rights of

business owners based on their religious beliefs to deny service to gays and lesbians. nbc news is reporting she is likely to veto the measure. however, that's according to three people close to her in our reporting. the bill was passed last week by the state legislature, even though three republicans who backed it now say they've changed their minds. it is strongly opposed by many of the state's business community, of course, who are worried about an economic backlash. according to talking points memo, every major state business group, including the arizona chamber of commerce and industry have urged governor brewer to veto the bill. so have a number of major corporations including apple, american airlines, and marriott, the hotel chain. the arizona super bowl host committee also is opposed to the bill. in addition to the state's two u.s. republican senators john mccain and jeff flake have publicly said the governor should veto. here was mccain earlier today on that point. >> most importantly, it's the impression that it's creating because it is viewed as discriminatory. i think there is some back and forth argument about whether it

actually is or not. but this can affect tourism. it can affect our state's economy and job creation. the entire business community of arizona is urging the veto of the bill because of the impact they think it would have on them. so i hope that the governor will veto this bill. >> well, will she or won't she? any day now she could veto it. but it has national implications. a lot of money here. brahm resnik, a political reporter for kpnx tv in phoenix and a columnist with "the washington post." brahm, thank you so much for joining us. i guess when we try to figure this out from a distance, my question is what is the intention, i mean, really, what's the intention of this law? >> the specific intention of this law is to basically eliminate an anti-discrimination law here in phoenix that protects the lgbt community. the sponsor of this bill in the

legislature last year lost a bitter fight to prevent phoenix from passing that civil rights ordinance. she came back almost the very next day at the legislature with a bill similar to the one we're talking about right now. it did pass last year. governor brewer vetoed it. mainly because she was in a fight with the legislature over something else, the medicaid expansion. cathi herrod, the woman behind the bill brought it back again this year. it passed locally. but you have to see it locally. it really is all about getting around ordinances in phoenix, tucson and flagstaff, our largest cities. >> what is this about? you can put a sign up in a bar, this is a christian bar, no gays allowed? how far -- how do you -- what kind of law is this? how much presidential behavior would it countenance? >> the truth is we really don't know. >> what are we talking about here? >> well, let me give you a hypothetical. i bounced off a lawyer, he said this was correct. so here in arizona we have the

sheriff of pinal county, next to phoenix is a republican. he is gay. if he went to a hotel with another male and tried to check into a room, that male may or may not be his partner, tried to check into a room, the owner or manager of that hotel with a religious objection could denied him and his partner or staffer service. >> and is that the law of arizona today that they can do that or do they have to pass the law to have the owner be able to say that? >> that's a very good point. right now in arizona you can discriminate against the lgbt community. they have no civil rights protections except, as i said before, in phoenix, tucson and flagstaff. this bill would end that. >> okay, gene. i have to think, i have to think, first of all can we get along with fewer laws and regulations in life. if you're caterer and you don't want to do this kind of wedding

ceremony, go to another caterer or say i'm not really happy you. don't want the band playing at your wedding that doesn't like you. you don't want the cater serving you who doesn't like you. but anyway, the rights are rights. and my question is this something just to throw it at the gay community? is this just some nasty shot, we don't like you? >> it sounds like exactly that. you know, look, these cities have ordinances they have chosen, their citizens have chosen to protect lgbt rights, and this is the state saying, no you can't do that. you can't have laws discriminating against these people because we want you to be able to discriminate against them. it's making a point. but it seems to me that, you know, this is about public accommodations. and one wonders if this would pass constitutional muster if it were challenged. it certainly would be. >> is sexual orientation covered by the civil rights act of '64? >> not specifically, but who knows by extension?

i'm obviously not a lawyer. but, you know, people did claim to have religious objections to, for example, interracial dating or interracial marriage or, indeed, what they used to call race mixing down where i grew up. and they said the good lord didn't intend that. well, that was wrong. >> let's talk the money issue on this. i'm more comfortable and more knowledgeable about. arizona went through hell with the martin luther king issue. and they don't want to have another thing like that. is that the sentiment out there? >> absolutely. martin luther king, more recently sb-1070 did some really severe damage to our economy. >> anyway, thank you. i think money is going to talk out there. my bet is that the governor will sign by tomorrow. anyway, thank you, gene robinson and brahm resnik for that reporting up from phoenix. here is a political lesson for some conservatives. republican governors who have expanded medicare under obama care are the ones in best shape now heading into the november

elections. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

tomorrow actor seth rogen testifies on capitol hill about the effects of alzheimer's. his mother-in-law suffers from it, as my mom died from it. seth will be coming right here to "hardball" to talk about it tomorrow night. seth rogen, the great actor and funny guy. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." it's been nearly impossible to understate the far right's hatred of president obama's health care law. of course, and over the years it's been their battle cry, their bugle horn. they have tried to weaken it, slander it, defund it, destroy it, repeal it. when all that failed, they threatened to blow up the global economy through a government default just to delay the whole thing. but what has been drowned out by the hate obama noise machine is something pretty astonishing when you think about it. look at this. according to politico, republican governors who have embraced a key part of the law, the expansion of medicaid for low income citizens, are better positioned politically than those who did not. they're all front-runners right now for reelection, and some are cruising to reelection. you heard that right.

the group includes rick snyder in michigan, john kasich in ohio, who was threatened with promises of a tea party challenger thanks to his support of the law. susana martinez in new mexico, bill haslem in deep red tennessee, and brian sandoval in nevada, who is the only republican governor to support both the medicaid expansion and a new state-run insurance exchange. it doesn't take a genius to see what is going on here. for all their blind hatred of the law, the health care law, it's not hurting republicans to actually support it. kathleen park is a pulitzer prize winning columnist with "the washington post." and james hohmann. james, i came across this this morning and i was stunned by this sort of mannequinian world in which you love it or hate it. some were quietly in the middle, right on the dmz are practical-minded republican governors who make decisions based on the interests of their states and the finances here who have decided it's smart to take the federal matching money to bring in the money actually they

wouldn't otherwise have, to take people who make a bit above the poverty level to get them health insurance. it's a single payer system, ironically, that republicans seem to like. explain. >> yeah, chris, absolutely. there's no question. they see these tens of millions of dollars on the table from the federal government and they think it's crazy not to take the money and it's a case usually you hate the sin, love the sinner. it's hate the president in this case, but take the money available under the law and what they found is a lot of the conservatives and tea party groups who were criticizing them, threatening primary challenges, they're not going to support the democrat. so they end up standing alongside them, no one is getting a primary challenge. meanwhile, it softens their image with independents and moderates and so all these governors have started to do this and there's been this effect where other governors see conservatives taking the obamacare money and then now they're following suit. >> you know, it's a good

example, kathleen, a people on the right. not punishing of governor for helping people who are working poor. the people, the food stamp people, if you will. people in poverty. in this case, people just the above. the ones you have to look out for, the ones trying to break into the middle class but they need health care. >> right. the opposition to the medicare expansion all along has been problematic for republicans for that very reason. it's hard to say, no, you shouldn't help these very poor people and yet you have to ask yourself, are you willing to take the money now and pay later? which is going to be the case. i'm curious -- >> some of the republican guys a bit on the far right, if you're not here, i'd call them clowns. everybody knows i think they are like rick scott of florida. people in real trouble up in pennsylvania, corbett. they're not taking it. saying screw you, mr. president. we don't care if it hurts our working core. we have to pretend it by trashing your program. rick scott, look at these people. >> yeah no, i hear you. i hear you. the thing is, though, i'm not sure, i have to question the

premise of this story with all due respect as we say. >> go ahead. >> the two dots. i'm not sure they connect. >> let me tell you the way i put the program together is i try to think about logic and the logic of people that normally you would think would be vulnerable to right wing attack for playing ball, if you will, with obama. in these very important big states of michigan, ohio and -- michigan, ohio, new mexico, tennessee, nevada add up to big states. they're playing ball with the president and nobody is firing at them. i find that fascinating. >> let me ask you this. take governor snyder, for example, in michigan. is he going to be re-elected because he embraced medicaid expansion or because he lifted the economy? >> it's my argument -- go ahead. you go here. my argument, having read your article since you're the expert, my argument coming out of it was, you know what, it doesn't hurt to play ball with obama in the interest of your state. your thoughts.

>> yeah, absolutely. it helps. and in fact, the chairman of the democratic governors association told me over the weekend it's harder to go after the guys who have taken the money. it takes away one of the key attack lines against them. it's something they can cite. what's interesting, chris, these republicans still are afraid of being seen as too close to obama because they need to keep their base enthusiastic. so they're coming up with cute euphemisms to kind of explain why they're taking the money. they don't call it obamacare, medicaid. they call it healthy michigan or healthy indiana or insert the name of the state. they're somewhat concerned about getting whacked from their base for playing ball with the administration. you have people like mike pence, former congressman from indiana, one of the most vocal critics of obamacare when it was debated in the house. he met with kathleen sebelius last friday for indiana to take the money available under the law. >> well, it's interesting, of course, governors have to actually serve their people as opposed to congress people. >> it's a real job. >> it's a real job for them. they have to face their constituents every day.

they do want to make their state function. maybe some of the people have accepted it is the law. >> don't you remember the great ronald reagan role, and maybe, james, you're a young guy, you may remember it. ronald reagan said it's amazing how much good you can do if you don't care who gets credit for it. change the name of the program, slap on healthy indiana, healthy ohio and everybody is happy. >> how ironic the republican governors are putting in place what amounts to a single payer program. >> let's go back to james. that's the key point. single payer is beginning to look to me, the simple solution to all our problems. i'm not that far left normally. i feel like i'm getting there. we don't need more paperwork, more confusion, more this, more that. it seems it's beginning to look for certain people in certain economic need a single payer makes a lot of sense. people over 65, or people just above the poverty line.

>> there's no question, chris, the republican governors who are taking this money to expand medicaid are making it harder for their brethren on capitol hill to undo the law or to roll back parts of it. once you offer these expanded entitlements, you know, a state like michigan is never going to take them away. that's not going to be politically feasible. in a lot of ways -- undercutting might not be the best word but making it harder for the republicans capitol hill who continue to take these repeal votes week after week. >> well, that will be the name of a future book of mine, "liberalism always wins, dot dot dot, eventually." thank you, james hohmann and kathleen parker. it's true, on civil rights and everything. we're right back after this. s' . and his new boss told him two things -- cook what you love, and save your money. joe doesn't know it yet, but he'll work his way up from busser to waiter to chef before opening a restaurant specializing in fish and game from the great northwest. he'll start investing early, he'll find some good people to help guide him, and he'll set money aside from his first day of work to his last, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

let me finish tonight with this. upfront we hit the fact that vice president joe biden is thinking strongly of running for president. even if secretary hillary clinton runs herself. this is good old-fashioned democratic politics and may not be smart, who knows but it's certainly as i said good old-fashioned democratic politics. unlike republicans, democrats don't sit around deciding whose turn is. they don't stand aside and let the lucky one get the nomination without the contest. i'm of the opinion there's nothing like a primary fight to get somebody ready for the general election. it killed jimmy carter to stay in the rose garden when he should have been duking it out with ted kennedy. helped the first george bush before taking on mike dukakis. the spring tussle with dan rather. remember that one? we'll see. as i said at the start of the show, i can't think of a reason why joe biden would do this match with hillary clinton if he wasn't going to come roaring out at the bell. that's "hardball" for now.

thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i am ari melber filling in for chris hayes tonight. we begin with a story where progressives are on offense this evening. the plane carrying governor jan brewer touched down in arizona and the conservative governor came home here with a lot of baggage. her colleagues in arizona and around the nation are waiting on her to decide whether she will sign or veto arizona's senate bill 1062, the controversial bill that would authorize businesses to discriminate against gay citizens. such discrimination is generally prohibited but the bill would create a religious exemption. passed out of the arizona legislature and sitting on jan brewer's desk. she has until saturday morning to make her decision. yesterday brewer in washington for a national governors association event said she'd not