and we should pay within the reason of giving people correction, not just detention. we need what the attorney general has said we needed for all americans to be able to live a balanced justice system. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. time to attack. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. let me start tonight with this. the best defense is a good offense. are you listening, democratic candidates? if the republicans are running on the president, his health care plan and you, you can sit there and play defense. you can talk reasonably about the values of compromise or the immediate to fix obamacare, not

kill it, and you can get your head chopped off exactly the way alex sink got her removed talking that way two nights ago in florida. or you can give the angry voter out there something really scary to vote against, a direction to really direct his or her anger. you can warn people what the republicans will really do if they real will clench power, how they're hell bent on cutting entitlements. that's their term for it. yours might be social security and medicare, because those benefits of yours under social security and medicare make up 7 in $10 of entitlements. republicans are dying to get at those entitlement programs. if you're retired or headed toward it, that republican goal of cutting them is definitely worth voting against. something else to fear the republicans get the upper hand, women's health care, roe v. wade, which the florida republican who won plans to repeal. voter suppression? wait until the republicans get ready for their plans on minority access. they'll know the price of a lost

election. and that minimum wage hike, watch it die if the r's get complete control of congress there is a promise to kill it. and could bit time for the democrats to put up word that it's not just a chance for angry people to dump all over barack obama, but a chance to hit you where you're weakest. jonathan martin is the national political correspondent for "the new york times." and eugene robinson is a column wisconsin "the washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. jonathan, i was struck by the campaign run on defense. by alex sink down in florida two days ago, where she was very reasonable and nice. well, maybe there are problems with obamacare, but let's try to fix it, not get rid of it. maybe we shouldn't think we're right on everything. maybe the republicans are right on some things. maybe we should compromise. and that nice approach to this campaign cost a stronger candidate, the woman we're looking at right now, to lose to a washington lobbyist on the far right. obviously it's not a prescription for victory. she was a better candidate,

better positioned in terms of her career. she only lost the race for governor by one point last time around. here she gets whacked by this guy who normally wouldn't win a nomination. the democratic party capable of pivoting and establishing itself as the aggressive party this fall or has it already doomed itself to just sit there and take a licking? your thoughts. >> oh, i think there is still plenty of time, chris, for them to go on the offensive message wise. and i think that's what you'll see here. i talked to steve israel yesterday, who is the head of the house democratic campaign arm. and he wants democrats to campaign trying to appeal to their core group, african americans, hispanics, young voters, women with directed appeals towards those voters, using the kinds of things that you talked about in your preamble there the question, though, that looms over all of this, can democrats get those voters out? even if they've got foder to turn out their base, can they get them to show up on election

day when barack obama's name is not on the ballot? they could not in 2010. they had a better time of it last year in virginia when terry mcauliffe won in 2013. >> right. >> it's still an open question this year. but i'll tell you what the biggest fear among democrats, chris, is. it's not just the president's health care law. it's the president himself. that number, 41%, which is what our poll and what the journal and nbc had the president at, 41% is what is really causing democrats to be scared. >> you're taking the temperature. i'm trying to come up with the prescription for the party that is going to get whacked if it doesn't change. if it simply says gene, how do you feel? i don't feel so good. how do you feel? let's talk about how we've all had the blues and we don't like the president or shift to protecting old people, because the republicans keep saying entitlements, entitlements. what are they really talking about? look at this. the republicans are serious about really cutting into entitlement spending, which they always say they are, it's all we ever hear from them, they can

hardly skip over social security and medicare. look at this. according to the brookings institute, social security and medicare make up about 68% of all entitlement spending. cutting those programs is not something people want. according to the latest nbc "wall street journal" poll, for example, a whopping 69% said they would be less likely to vote for a candidate who supports can youing those programs to address the budget deficit. only 17% say they would be more likely to vote for that candidate. republicans keep saying entitlements. this obama is a chicken. he won't get serious about cutting entitlements. they use that nice phrase. >> entitlements, yes. what is an entitlement. >> it means at the age of 65, you're entitle to get benefits if you worked. at the age of 65, you're entitled to health care if you worked. right? get rid of those entitlements. i don't understand the droots let them get away with that. >> be specific. talk about social security. talk about medicare. you know, the election will hinder on whether or not democrats can get those voters to the polls, as jonathan said.

you got give them a reason. you got to give them a reason to come out. the democrats are better at targeting, identifying their voters. they have all the high-tech stuff now. but you got give people a reason to vote in a special election. >> jonathan, let me ask about women voters. we've been reporting on them and i've been talking about them. women have tended to be more democrat than republican normally. i don't think it's just a choice issue of i a borges rights. i think it's a lot of things, taking care of seniors, their parents. they're much better at focusing on family urgencies. but it is an issue. the republican party, the democrats call it the war on women. look at this. the republican party platform in 2012 states in pretty plain language when it comes to women's rights and abortion rights. it says we firmly stand against it. we've already seen one republican, that's david jolly this week in florida win his race after publicly stating his goal is to repeal roe v. wade.

simply put, the state level is a coordinated effort by republicans to wage the assault on women's right. according to a nonprofit group which tracks reproductive issues, 22% of states, 22 states, rather, enacted 70 laws recently targeting a woman's reproductive rights in 2013. that's last year there have been more restrictions enacted in states in the last three years than the entire decade before that. and there are now 27 states classify hostile to women's right. they're all dominated by republicans. we're all talk about the president, his unpopularity. if the democrats let the people go into the voting booth with one question, how do you feel about obama right now, they're going to kill. i don't understand why they don't focus on issues that matter to women, issues that matter to seniors. voter suppression effort has been absolutely unbelievably disgusting, and the democrats should call the republicans on it. your thoughts. >> yeah, that's going to be, chris, what they're going try and do. and that is make the election less about president obama and

more about a set of favorable issues, including among women issues like health care and abortion rights. to me, though, the question is among women in their 20s and 30s and 40s, especially single women, those groups are the most favorable towards democrats. do they show up in these house races? do they show up in these senate races? to me it's very much an open question that is what is so pivotal for terry mcauliffe in virginia and president obama in 2012. >> okay, i'm getting a little excited here. alex sink who is a better candidate losing to this guy. i think steve israel is smart. run again. you run again with the same issues, the same two candidates and you have a totally different electorate come november. you're right that the electorate this november won't be as big as 2012. but it will be a damn sight bigger than the election this week when nobody showed up because special elections are notoriously low turnout.

democrats think it's patriotic. they do show up. why not run it again? on the same issues and say we're going to do a lot better. >> i think that might happen. israel told me yesterday that he'd like to see her run again. i understand that some democrats also in the house are already calling her and telling her to run again. one interesting note, when she ran for governor of florida in 2010, she actually won that district, what is approximately that district in her gubernatorial race in 2010, a really bad year for democrats nationally. so to your point, she probably would have a better shot this fall when you've got a broader looking electorate coming out to the polls. >> let's talk about african americans especially voting. i grew up in philadelphia where the best way to register african american democrats was have frank rizzo as mayor. because they said this guy is the enemy. we're going get out there and vote. it turned out the african american registration was higher than the white vote, because they had a reason to vote. republicans in three dozen

states have passed laws last year to. some republicans aren't shy about political motivations behind their efforts. catch this. before the 2012 election, pennsylvania's republican leader said their voter id law would give the election to romney. he just came out and said it. >> voter id, which is going to allow governor romney to win the state of pennsylvania, done. >> done. and then the state's republican party chairman gloated about how those laws took away votes from president obama. take a look at this fellow gleason. here he goes. do. >> you think all the attention drawn to voter id affected last year's elections? >> yeah, i think a little bit. i think we probably had a better election. think about this. we cut obama by 5%, which is big. a lot of people lost sight of that. he beat mccain by 10%. he only beat romney by 5%. i think probably voter id helped a bit in that.

>> helped a bit. they just open and say this, jonathan. anyway, then there is this little sugar plum. don yet yeltin said this. >> the law is going to kick the democrats in the butt. if it hurts a bunch of lazy blacks, so be it. >> and it just so happens, a lot of those people vote democrat. >> gee. >> i think the guy he is talking to is african american. he was pretty -- i would say pretty unashamed. >> they're all for honesty, right? just put it all out there. here is a way in which president obama can help democrats, right? because he can mobilize african americans. he can -- >> this idea, can you get people off their hammocks, whatever, off their chairs or whatever they're sitting on and get out in a day in november and actually vote, all voters? >> like the rizzo example you gave, in ohio, for example,

where they've tried voter suppression, blacks voted in higher numbers than whites. >> let me ask you, jonathan young fellow, what does get people to vote? wars? depressions? where do you get people to really turn out in midterm elections? i don't know. the democrats came out and protected bill clinton in '98 after all the impeachment stuff. people do react, i suppose. will they react to an offensive campaign that says no more of this, we're going after you this time on issues like abortion issues, voter rights and vote suppression. >> i think what young person you're talking about. younger women are going to be perhaps more persuadable on issues of women's health care. i think men or women obviously are going to be interested in issues regarding the economy and their prospects in the job market after leaving college. but, again, it's a matter of engagement. and it's historically very hard to get people in that

demographic engaged in nonpresidential elections. it just doesn't happen that often. >> one thing i know isn't working is defense. >> defense isn't working. and promises i think are dangerous. this year. i don't think people are believing in promises. i think you're on to system in telling people look, if you don't come out and vote, this bad stuff is going to happen. i think -- >> frank underwood is going to take over if you don't vote. anyway, eugene robinson, jonathan martin, thank you of "the new york times." coming up, the conservative clown car hits the road again saying their progressive opponents are not -- that president obama supports al qaeda, that's a big one, that he could be impeached. and the clown car, boy, it's in overdrive. plus, spy scandal. the real reason why the cia is worried about that senate investigation. they don't want us to hear about america torturing prisoners. hand that is the bottom line. and why do conservatives like paul ryan say the best way to deal with poor kids who can't afford school lunch is to deny them food? do they really think keeping

children hungry is a beres pea for success or better concentration in class. >> finally, let me finish tonight with this urgent moral need to know what our own cia is up to. this is "hardball," the place for politics. as a business owner, i'm constantly putting out fires. so i deserve a small business credit card with amazing rewards. with the spark cash card from capital one, i get 2% cash back on every purchase, every day. i break my back around here. finally someone's recognizing me with unlimited rewards! meetings start at 11, cindy. [ male announcer ] get the spark business card from capital one. choose 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day. what's in your wallet? i need your timesheets, larry!

democrats would love nothing more than to beat senate leader mitch mcconnell this november, of course. and while polls show a tight race out there in kentucky, "the new york times" notes today, it suggested a mcconnell defeat would be virtually unprecedented. mcconnell is not just an incumbent, after all, who represents the opposition party during a midterm election. he also comes from a state that has voted against the president. and since 1956, only seven senators in that situation have lost their reelection. last time it happened, 1998 with north carolina's faircloth lost to john edwards. the president's approval rating was 60%. in north carolina only narrowly went to bob dole two years prior. we'll be right back. he united ss

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welcome back to "hardball." well, another elected official is hinting that impeachment should be considered against president obama. he is joining a chorus of right wingers who have used everything from benghazi, the fast and furious to suggest that president obama is guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. u.s. congressman dana rohrabacher of california has a new charge against president obama, his handling of immigration. specifically, it's a statement he made at a univision telemundo town hall last week when asked whether families with mixed immigration status, ie, the parents are here legally, the children are legal, should they fear that information given for the new health care law could be used for deportation purposes. here is how the president answered that tough one. >> none of the information that is provided in order or the you to obtain health insurance is in any way transferred to immigration services. so that's something that we've been very clear about.

if you live in a mixed status family, then the son could potentially be eligible for the children's health insurance program or some other mechanism to get health insurance, he needs to be signed up. and the mother should not be fearful. >> well, congressman rohrabacher told a right-wing radio show the president's answer reflected his approach of enforcing the laws he likes and not the once he doesn't. it went on to suggest impeachment should be an option. here he is. >> the most important thing we can do is mobilize the american people. we cannot sit back, the american people can't sit back and say well, congress has to handle this, or somebody else has to. we all have to do it. we've got three years to get this guy out. hopefully he -- well, let me put hit the way. i think he probably has been engaged in these

unconstitutional approaches that may make his own ability to stay in office a question. >> well, that comment clearly earned rohrabacher a seat in the clown car. and this week he is joining a crowded vehicle, including a general saying the president is sending subliminal messages to muslims, of course, a potential 2016 presidential candidate comparing the current political climate to nazi germany, and a clown car staple, michele bachmann concerned that gay people are bullying, don't you feel it, the rest of us. the president of person naberna for women policies. and joan walsh. it's hard to get particulars here except that the president is not throwing people away from health care who have a right to it. >> right, right. >> who have a right to it. they're legal citizens. and not going after their parents because the parents performed at least some civic duty of bringing those children to the attention of the health people so the kids could benefit from it.

hardly a breaking of the law there. >> no. >> he said why not grab them while they're trying to do something good for their kids. and that's impeachable. and it's probably impeachable and it may, might be. that guy might be guilty of murder, i don't know. maybe, possibly. i don't know. usually you accuse and take to it the house judiciary committee and you bring him up on charges and you stand behind him in that committee or you don't, it seems to me. >> but they throw this around, chris, because their base loves it. as long as it seems like they're doing something to get rid of this usurper in the white house. >> three years to get him. >> three years to get him. >> how do you talk like that? >> and what is really crazy about this example is the president is simply enforcing the law. the president is simply stating the law. if you are here, if you are born here and you're a citizen, you a right to the affordable care. now, you don't have that right if you are here illegally. >> yeah. >> and he is not suggesting -- >> you mean joe wilson was wrong? >> joe wilson was absolutely wrong when he said he lied. this is also a president we have

to state who has really stepped up enforcement and deportation to the point that latino democrats in congress are upset. the immigration reform community is stepping up the pressure on the president. so this is crazy. but the base loves crazy. >> what information are we hearing? why are you bringing up information? >> i'm sorry, chris. >> like he killed bin laden so he must be working for crazies. another passenger in the clown car, in 2003 general jerry boykin said muslims worshipped a idol. a comment that earned him a public rebuke from the president, in that case george w. bush. after retiring from the mill in twefb, general boykin has continued peddling anti-islamic rhetoric. he said islam should not be protected by the first amendment. and the muslim brotherhood has infiltrated the pentagon. last week he spoke at a conference set up for

conservatives who were not invited. they were too crazy to go to cpac. they couldn't get in the door. it was moderated by frank gaffney, the man who says antitax crusader grover norquist has ties to the muslim brotherhood. at the conference he was caught on a hot mic discussing president obama's 2009 speech in cairo. here is what general boykin said with the mic on. let's listen. >> your understanding anything about islam, there are subliminal messages, his message was really, i understand you and i support you. and i think what you've seen here as a result of that, you've seen al qaeda the muslim brotherhood and everybody else absolutely taking advantage. right, right. absolutely. they're taking advantage of this

opportuni opportunity. they see they have a president that has been supportive of them and is unwilling to go against. >> what is this subliminal message when you're speaking? when you're speaking words, would it be subaudible? is it something you're not hearing? >> e.t. message. >> what is a subliminal message the president is sending to al qaeda that he is really on their side and this is code? i think this is almost like stuff coming out of your teeth, this kind of talk. >> it is. >> transmitting. >> it's a national embarrassment. it is insidious. >> general boykin. >> and i'm so thankful that we are talk it so that the public -- >> but frank gaffney believes in him. >> he believes in him. and all we can hope is the rest of the american public will listen to these statements and understand that we are in very serious trouble there are people who believe this kind of nonsense. and they believe in just us, meaning just them. they don't like hispanics. they don't like immigrants, they don't like muslims, they don't like anyone who is nonwhite. it is a very, very serious state

of affairs the things he said about jews. >> spell it out. what did he say? >> oh, he said horrible things about jews. he made jokes on a hot mic talking to a jewish reporter. the jews are the source of all the problems in the world. but that's not the first time. >> we just had a white guy saying how he is going to screw the blacks out of voting talking to an african american interviewer. this is fairly flagrant. it's not like we're digging up these stories. >>. no and notice there are no apologies. there is no i made a misstatement. >> never. >> there is nothing. >> one more item here there is more company this week in the clown car, including conservative rock star -- well, he is a rock star now, ben carson, the neurosurgeon came in third place at the cpac convention. too bad for him. look at this. in the past he has compared the affordable care act to slavery and gay marriage to pedophilia and bestiality. earlier this week he was asked about another controversial comment he made. and he didn't exactly back down. let's listen to dr. carson.

>> i've been told that he said we're living in a gestapo age. what do you mean by that? >> i mean very much like nazi germany. and i know you're not supposed to say nazi germany, but i don't care about political correctness. you know, you had a government using its tools to intimidate the population. we now live in a society where people are afraid to say what they actually believe. and it's because of the pc police. it's because of politicians, because of news. it's all of these things are combining to stifle people's conversation. >> joan walsh, what do you make of dr. carson? he is a good doctor, a good guy. think he should stay in his lane i got to tell you something. if somebody once said to me jocks don't make great restauranteurs just because they think they are, great doctors don't just make great political leaders on the hard right. go ahead. your rights.

>> that's incredibly offensive to talk about nazi germany that way. does he know what happened? does he know about the extermination of six million jews? does he know about the systemic wiping out of a population here? he doesn't have one example of a person punished for speech. people criticized? yes. you and i are kritized. he is criticized. we have open and full debate in this country. and to lower the rhetoric, to suggest that people are being punished by the government, by the gestapo for disagreeing with president obama is really lurid. it's beyond paranoid. >> by the way, we've already proven in the last five minutes joan and i and you that you can say anything on the hard right. >> anything. >> anything about the muslim brotherhood being whatever. >> nazi. >> this is a free country. it's especially free in attacking the president. for him to say we're under some kind of gag rule is absurd. michelle bernard, thank you so much. and joan walsh, thank you so much. >> thanks. the republic roar over

president obama's interview with zach galifianakis. you have to think the presidents have done all this stuff before and they never did comedy? well that. >> actually did, and we're going to prove it. this is hardball, the place for politics. ♪

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take the next step. talk to your doctor. this is humira at work. looks like putin believes the president is a lightweight. will a comedy video counter that? i'm just asking. all i can say is abe lincoln would not have done it. >> time pour the sideshow. bill o'reilly criticizing president obama for appearing with zach galifianakis in the now famous "between two ferns" video earlier this week. but o'reilly's conjecture that lincoln wouldn't have done it is being challenged on the daily beast. greenfield points out that lincoln's sharp sense of humor was a political asset, and one that his foes also criticized

him for during the civil war. but critics of the president's interview should take a long look through history. many presidents have engaged with pop culture icons. nixon famously posed with elvis in 1970 after the king, that's elvis presley, asked him to make him a federal agent at large. and as a candidate before that, nixon appeared on "laugh-in" where he delivered this famous line. >> sock it to me? >> in 1992, president bush hammed it up with dana carvey at the white house after inviting the "snl" funny man to mimic him in front of his staffers. there he was doing it. >> start out with mr. rogers. ♪ it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood ♪ . then you add a little john way. here we go. let's go over the ridge. wow put them together, you get george herbert walker bush. it's been quite a year. got a little nausea there in tokyo.

should have seen the look on the prime minister's face there, ooh, mr. bush, you look like you going to bro chunk. >> ronald reagan was known for his wise cracks. in one instance, he even posed with a leprechaun in the cabinet room in 1996. it's clear the obamas aren't embarrassed by this kind of thing. we saw michelle obama host kermit the frog in an event for military families at the white house just yesterday. anyway, up next, want to know why the cia was worried than senate investigation? that's coming up. they got a reason to worry. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ female announcer ] we lowered her fever.

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i'm frances rivera. here is what is happening. government source tell nbc news

there is evidence that malaysia airlines missing jet gave off faint pings up to four hours after it disappeared from radar. as a result the search is expanding to the indian ocean. they say there is enough support for the measure to pass. and republican david jolly was sworn in as the newest member of the house after winning a special election in florida. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." senator dianne feinstein's remarkable rebuke of the cia from the senate floor this week has put the focus again on the issue of torture. and if you go back to the days just following the 9/11 attacks, you can see then vice president dick cheney sowing the seeds of what would be 13 years later

define stein's dramatic speech. this is cheney 2001. >> we also have to work the dark side, if you will. we have to spend time in the shadows in the intelligence world. a lot of what needs to be done here will have to be done quietly without any discussion using sources and methods that are available to our intelligence agencies. if we're going to be successful. that's the world these folks operate in. and so it's going to be vital for us to use any means at our disposable, basically, to achieve our objective. >> well, cheney's definition of any means at our disposable includes actions that are universally considered torture. videotapes of some of those so-called enhanced interrogations existed but were destroyed by the cia and the senate intelligence committee learned from this 2007 "new york times" report. there it is. members outraged were given access to cia written reports about the interrogation which

senator feinstein said were chilling and far worse than told by the cia. that's when the intelligence committee voted 14-1 to conduct a comprehensive review of the cia's detention and interrogation program. it does not report years in the making that the senator once released now. >> if the senate can declassify this report, we will be able to ensure that an unamerican brutal program of detention and interrogation will never again be considered or permitted. >> joining me right now is ron suskind, pulitzer prize winning author of four books on presidential power, including the bush/cheney administration. his upcoming book "life animated" is about the unique and remarkable way his autistic son has learned to communicate. and joe edison. good luck on the book. it sounds like a very important book for us all to learn about. let me ask you about this torture thing. let's get to the bottom line for

people watching. why is there a fight here between brennan, the cia director and dianne feinstein? what is the bottom line of interest to the american people here? >> the bottom line is that moving to the dark side, their world is our world, it deeply compromised the united states. it compromised the real source of our power, chris, our moral authority. and everyone knows it now as well. the torture was ineffective in terms of any intelligence gains. that's what is clear. what everyone now is covering up is who did what, who ordered what. and the fact is every reporter involved here knows something. it was driven out of the white house. the white house in the presidential daily briefs was getting daily briefing as to the yield of torture. they were driving this program. and there has been no accountability. who is the only person who is serving time for any of this? john kiriakou, who leaked information, much of it disinformation favorable to the bush administration to a

reporter. that's it. one guy. that's an issue of accountability that dianne finally has been pushed to the wall, is pushing back to say time's up. >> well, the thing here is, let me go to john conason here. it seems to me cheney was running the affair. the issue is even more elaborate than ron has pointed out. it's the intelligence agency itself in its overview conducted by leon panetta said it wasn't working. so it wasn't just that the ends don't justify the means. it's a question of the ends weren't achieved by the means, which is even worse, to do the bad stuff, to go into what cheney called the dark side and come out of it with nothing. your thoughts, joe? >> that they're trying to hide. they're trying to hide. >> that's what they're trying to hide. >> that is the secret, although it's not really a secret, as ron pointed out. that's what they want to hide. that's what the cia wants to hide. look, in the past when the cia has done something that we all think was wrong, whether it was bringing nazis here or, you know, other things that they've done in the past that exposed

them to criticism, they've always wanted to say we had to do that because communism, because subversion, because of, you know, nuclear danger. in this case, what they're trying to conceal is that they did something that's universally condemned that did not work. and, you know, if that comes out, if that is made clear, then, you know, the game is up as far as that is concerned. and there will be some kind of accountability. i don't think anyone will ever be prosecuted, unfortunately, for these crimes. but there will be historical accountability for cheney and bush, i believe. >> ron, when we had the church eway back in the '70s and they began to clean up a lot of this mess. i wonder if we're going get back to that level of cleanliness again. my bigger question is about cheney. you said he was getting daily reports, his crowd around him, scooter and him and the rest were getting reports on the yield of the tortures. oh, he said this or he agreed to

this. if that yield was so plentiful, why is the report coming from panetta going to say, we're told, that it wasn't plentiful, they weren't getting information from all this torture and waterboarding, et cetera. >> what was happening -- >> who was feeding the malarkey to cheney, or was he just buying stuff he wanted to believe was successful? >> look, he was seeing what he wanted to see. some of it said he all right, if we're not getting it, go deeper. do more. and the desire to push it further and further and further in terms of these extraordinary extra legal techniques was significantly driven by the white house itself. and what you're having now is a very interesting dynamic which again joe and other reporters are seeing. remember, bush and cheney are kind of not getting along these days. they're both fighting over legacy. you have bush team and cheney team shooting at each other as to who drove it, who is accountable, who is responsible. and they're both going to start pointing at each other. i think they call it a circular firing squad that actually could

provide a yield now of some information that leads to accountability. and i guess the question for dianne feinstein, will we now have a feinstein commission just like that church commission after watergate in the mid-'70s that did clean up cia there is no doubt about it. >> i don't think vice presidents should go operational, as ollie north said. here is the problem. he is not even an executive branch official. he is a legislative branch official. he is president of the senate. and for him to have the authority to order tortures is unimaginable. it may not be unconstitutional, but it's certainly extra constitutional that a vice president who is basically there to wait his turn is what the job is and to preside over the senate senn titled under our system of government to order who gets tortured, and as you say, turn the screws a little further? we'll get some more information out of the guy. jesus, that's a guy -- well, let's see if cheney answers for that. ron suskind, as always, very helpful. joe conason, great to have you. is taking school lunches

away from school kids a good plan to make them more successful? we'll talk more about that, if it's his plan to make hungry kids smarter. this is "hardball," the place for politics. sacrifice, courage which is why usaa is honored to help our members with everything from investing for retirement to saving for college. our commitment to current and former military members and their families is without equal. gundyes!n group is a go. not just a start up. an upstart. gotta get going. gotta be good. good? good. growth is the goal. how do we do that? i talked to ups. they'll help us out. new technology. smart advice. we focus on the business and they take care of the logistics. ups? good going. we get good. that's great. great. great. great. great. great. great. great. great.

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we're back. paul ryan has been on a poverty kick lately. early this month he released a report which among other things blames government programs for perpetuating poverty. he says the programs have created what is known as the poverty trap. last week he went after school lunch programs for children of low-income families, telling the conservative political action conference that all democrats offer people is, quote, a full stomach and an empty soul. and yesterday appeared on conservative bill bennett's radio show where he said residents of inner cities have a culture problem and lack of value for work. >> you know, your buddy charles murray or bob putnam over at harvard, those guys have written books on this, which is we have got this tailspin of culture in our inner cities in particular of men not working and just

generations of men not even thinking about working or learning the value and the culture of work. and so there is a real culture problem here that has to be dealt with. >> well, the reaction from many was swift and sharp. today ryan told nbc news the "today" program that "i was inarticulate about the point i was trying to make. i was not implicating the culture of one community but society as a whoel." ryan proposed cutting $3.3 trillion from low-income programs. last year roughly 2/3 of his entire $5 trillion in budget cuts. cut ks came from medicaid, low-income housing. anyway, ryan would spend much of that savings by reducing taxes on wealthy americans. does that sound fair? what do you think? bob herbert, senior fellow at demos, and ed rendell, former governor of pennsylvania. bob, you're laughing. i don't want to get into this because pat moynihan tried to get into this, figure out what causes cycles of poverty in the inner city, all that in the

african-american family. these kind of studies have be done and are very helpful at times. it looks like he's not using the study to be helpful but using the conversations that we understands loosely, if at all about culture to justify cuts in food stamps, cuts in nutrition programs for school that have little or nothing relationship really to me to whether somebody gets up and catches the bus at 7:00 in the morning or has the urge to work or whatever it is that is there. i don't see actually the connection between his policies and what he sees as his prescriptions. your thoughts? >> well, if you're really concerned about the poor, the first thing you need to do is ignore any proposals coming from the republicans. the republicans are hostile to the interest of the poor and have been for decades. paul ryan's way of helping the poor is to cut services for the poor and give more money to the rich in the form of tax cuts. i mean, what sense does that make? how are you going to help the poor by giving more money to rich? so, i mean, i just think it's

bizar bizarre. this idea that people don't to work is a canard. a couple years ago, mcdonald's announced they were going to fill 50,000 jobs. these were low-wage jobs. mcdonald's jobs. most were part time. 50,000. more than 1 million people applied for those 50,000 jobs. >> bob, that happens every time a hotel manages to open in a big city. i've seen it. lines are around the corner. i don't know how many times i've said on this show when you drive through washington, north capitol street which i've done a lot, early in the morning when i worked on the hill, along florida avenue. you know in the hood these people are all up catching the bus at 6:30 in the morning, 7:00 in the morning. people working at jobs that aren't paying a lot. they're getting there, doing their jobs and coming home at 6:00, 7:00 at night. that's not it and not proportional to talk about this. governor, let's talk about that. moynihan tried to do this. other people over time have tried to deal with issues of cycles of poverty. i don't know if you do it in a

budget. i don't know what you can do in social engineering which we do all the time. we all believe in social engineering. get all the kids coming out of world war ii to go to college. it's called the g.i. bill. social engineering. social security so hold people don't have to live with their kids. they can move out on their own, live in their own homes. social engineering. what can government programs do to help people get to work? to me, that's a great question. get to work. be self-reliant. is there anything in this whole budget process that's positive despite dumping on black people again? same old, same old. your thoughts? >> there's something in president obama's budget proposal that's positive and would affect the ability of people to get to work and that's pre-k education. universal pre-k. quality pre-k education. it starts there and it builds. you know, every year, the software industry goes into the congress and asks for the approval to bring more foreign

workers into the united states on these special visas so they can fill the software jobs that pay $50,000, $60,000 a year with benefits. people in philadelphia, erie, chicago, dying to do those jobs. $50,000 a year and benefits but don't have the educational background to fill those job. if we're serious about breaking the chain and cycle of poverty, we start with giving every american kid the best education they can get. if we do that, we'll do more to break the cycle of poverty than any of this other bull. chris, it's bull. kids who don't get school lunches, their parents don't have the money to give them bag lunches. they go hungry. i know teachers in philadelphia who take money out of their own pocket to make sure that a kid gets to eat because kids who are hungry can't concentrate in school, can't concentrate in class. it's just a bunch of bull. >> i wish we had more time. we got to this too late tonight. bob, we'll have you back to talk

about this. i know you care. you're a great guest. governor, as always, thank you, sir. >> thanks, chris. >> we got short on time tonight. we were talking about torture and stuff like that. we had pretty heavy stuff tonight. we'll with right back after this. that are powered by the moon. ♪ she can print amazing things, right from her computer. [ whirring ] [ train whistle blows ] she makes trains that are friends with trees. ♪ my mom works at ge. ♪ my mom works at ge. iwe don't back down. we only know one direction: up so we're up early. up late. thinking up game-changing ideas, like this: dozens of tax free zones across new york state. move here. expand here. or start a new business here... and pay no taxes for 10 years. with new jobs, new opportunities and a new tax free plan. there's only one way for your business to go.

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let me finish tonight with this. today in the city of washington, we're watching an all-out battle over how this country intends to do business this fight against terrorism. dianne feinstein who heads the senate intelligence committee wants the country to know what we're doing and whether it's working or not.

she wants to use what the cia, itself, decided about what the detention and interrogation programs are succeeding our not. she wants the american people to see into those dark areas where we fight the enmitnemy. places we don't like to know even exist. there's a process of finding out what dick cheney and the crowd were saying in the intelligence agencies all those years in the early part of this century. what he and his people were saying about what was okay, what he said was justified. the means he decided were justified by the ends so we can judge those questions, ourself. the only alternative is to trust the cia to do what's right, having no idea really what the cia has been doing. anyone who wants to do that is passing the buck on what kind of country you want to live in. be protected by. be governed by. do you think you can defend taking such a position, do you, to purposely pass on knowing the methods our intelligence agenc agencies are using? is that how you want to practice your citizenship by letting those who work in the dark keep you in the dark? i'm for feinstein. and what she's doing. "a" because i've always trusted

her personally and "b" because i think in the final analysis, we the people need to answer morally for what our cia does. and if we have to answer for it morally, ignorance can nnot be bliss. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. breaking news at this moment from philadelphia where a us airways flight 1702 departing philly for ft. lauderdale aborted takeoff and its nose slammed into the ground. after officials say the front landing gear collapsed on takeoff. foam was spread on the runway as a precaution and cell phone video shows passengers being evacuated by slides on to the runway. thankfully, there are no reported injuries among the 149 passengers and crew onboard. this news comes as the