be your partners best partner. we built it for our members, but it's open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. we come on the air this morning with breaking news from malaysia. the country answer transport minister relays words that the pilot and co-pilot of flight 370 did not ask to fly together on the midnight flight from kuala lumpur to beijing. government officials also said that police are examining an elaborate flight simulator that one of the pilots of the missing airliner had set up in his home. malaysia's transport ministry says the royal malaysia police are also investigating all crew members and passengers as well

as any engineers who may have had contact with the aircraft before takeoff. malays malaysia's police chief is also saying members of the plane's ground crew are also being investigated an they are waiting to receive background checks on some of the passengers from all of their home countries. this is now the ninth day that the jetliner which was carrying 239 passengers and crew members vanished from radar on its flight from kuala lumpur to beijing. while investigators in malaysia said yesterday their probe entered a new phase, a criminal phase, we appear no closer today to learning from that airliner actually ended up. yesterday as you might recall the prime minister of malaysia said investigators now believed the missing airline's communications were deliberately disabled and it veered off course as a result of action of someone on board, why malaysian officials say they are conducting a criminal investigation. yesterday police in kuala lumpur went to the homes of both pilots

taking two family members with them as they left as the search continues, lookouts aboard the guided missily destroyer of ""uss kidd" are scanning for debris in the ocean, as you can see in this new footage which comes from the u.s. navy. each piece of debris is being inspected to see if it's football related to the flight, they are being aided by two mh 0 reason j seahawk helicopters. no debris has been located, one facet of a multinational search with several countries contributing dozens of ships and aircraft. malaysia's transport minister says the number of participating countries has grown from 14 to 25. they are hoping for more satellite data to narrow the search. some countries put their operations on hold while waiting for confirmation where to look. india becomes the latest country to do so. the search is taking its toll on

the families and friends of many of the 239 people who were on board, people who have been waiting for information to beijing airport hotel for more than a week now. several are still holding out hope that the passengers may be alive somewhere. one man tells "the new york times" the families would stick together until they find out for certain what happened. "we will march in the streets if we have to." let's hope they have some definitive answers soon. joining me now is a reporter who has been closely following this story, michael schmidt with "the new york times." michael, we have the new press conference this morning coming to us from malaysia. we have the malaysian authorities saying they consider this a criminal investigation, this was a flight that was deliberately, the communications system were just deliberately disabled, it was deliberately put off course. is what we are hearing from the malaysian officials, does that match up from what u.s. officials believe happened here?

>> well, u.s. officials are largely in the dark, sort of on the investigative side of what the malaysians are doing. the malaysians have really kept them as a distance. they haven't asked the fbi for formal help looking into the leads they've generated over there and the only real information that the u.s. government has is the data and some of the imagery and the satellite information and the pinging that has come off of these planes. so that is the stuff that american investigators have looked at, and sort of used to try and figure out what's going on. but on the investigative side they've been frustrated because they don't really know a lot and their expertise, which they're very confident in, hasn't been, you know, pulled on. >> what specifically is it that the u.s. believes it could offer in this search that malaysia has not asked for or allowed them to do? >> well, i mean it's an interesting question because the fbi has many different capabilities and they have a lot of agents and they have folks that speak different languages

and such and they could come over to malaysia and they could really help put some muscle mind what they're doing and help with interviews but also help look at computer forensics, looking at this simulator and such, looking at other electronics stuff, but it makes sense because the malaysians say hey, we got this. we can do this on our own and if you're the prime minister of malaysia, you want to appear as though you are a strong auth authortative leader and you don't want another country from the other side of the world to come over and run your investigation because you want to know that you guys can do it. >> it's kind of amazing almost petty politics would enter into this. i know somebody, i was reading a quote from somebody overnight who described the malaysian government's attitude as sort of a pre-9/11 attitude when countries were a lot less cooperative when it came to these things. it's sort of surprising that we're having these issues in 2014. >> well, i guess it is, but it isn't, because in malaysia they want to show they can do this on their own and they don't need

the help of the americans to do that, and i understand that. the fbi realizes if they came out publicly and they said hey, we're here to help, that probably wouldn't change much either. maybe as the weeks go on, the malaysians get more frustrated with how far they've come on their own investigation, then they reach out for more help but at this point, there's less than a handful of fbi agents on the ground there, and there's a few ntsb and faa folks that are looking at this over there, but besides that, the united states is sort of sitting back and seeing if there's a u.s. nexus to anything that has come out and so far, there hasn't been, but they stand sort of waiting for the next development. >> all right, michael schmidt with the "new york times" thanks for joining us. we bring in bob hager, a correspondent for abc news for 35 years, reported from the scene of virtually every major crash in the years including the twa explosion off long island and the downing of pan am 103

over lockerbie, scotland. thank you for joining me. >> thanks for having me. >> i guess i'll start with the new information we're getting from the malaysian authorities this morning, as i was saying to michael, they say yesterday deliberately veered off course. they say now a criminal investigation and now looking at the pilots, they're looking at crew. in all of the new information that's come out from malaysia the last two days, does anything jump out at you, the most fascinating, and revealing and interesting? >> i have to go with the authorities so far. working with not much evidence at all but everything we see so far would lead to you believe that yes, this was a deliberate human act. by whom, we don't know. it could be one of the cockpit crew. the information that the two pilots didn't ask to work together, that's interesting. that means if one of them is the bad guy, they weren't together but that's easily explained.

one could take over for the other and disable the other one somehow and run the plane. but the basic issue here is that we're working with just little threads of information, these pings that they say may have gone on for seven hours or more. there's so much more information that might be out there yet that we don't know about, and right now it's really difficult to make speculation based on what we have so far. >> you've could have had a number of these, some domestic, some international. what we were just hearing from michael about sort of the lack of cooperation that exists right now between malaysian authorities and u.s. authorities and i also imagine china is a big player in this. this was a plane destined for china, at least half the passengers are chinese nationals. apparently the lack of cooperation that also exists there, does that surprise you based on your coverage of -- >> no, that's just sort of traditional, as schmidt made the point that the local government

is going to feel proprietary about the information. that's normal. but the u.s. sends these people out there who are the real experts, boeing, national transportation safety board, those kind of people. they hear from their local counterparts and so forth so i think information will begin to filter out that way. i'm wondering, too, much of this is military and the military is always very secretive about things. the u.s. military and malaysian military, all militaries are and they don't want to reveal what they got because they thank might tell you what sort of spy satellites they have, what kind of alset assets. i wonder if there isn't a lot more information out there. they have all the spy satellites that go down, they can look for an image of the plane flying somewhere. something is pushing people in the direction of deciding ultimately this plane went south so i wonder if somebody noticed something a little bit more than what we, the press, know so far. >> it's interesting. one of the reasons i heard

people say they suspect it went south rather than north would be the lack of satellite coverage. but stand by, we're going to bring you back in the next segment. i want to bring in nbc's kerry sanders with the latest on the search. what can you tell us investigat investigators are looking at now? >> they've expanded the area of search. up until this point, we'll look at the map i'll bring it up on the telestrator, this is the area they've been looking at, they followed the plane's path and they felt it looks like it went this way here so as they're following the plane's path they've decided in their efforts to do the search that they would do a good portion of the search down in this area here in the indian ocean, also up in the bay of bengal, but as we go even further north up into the land mass of like 11 countries, all the way up at the very top, they've now expanded the search. this is easier and harder.

the reason is would be easier because they're working in two dimensions over land. you look down and see what you see, unless you go with the theory this is some conspiracy and the plane is being hidden and covered up. when it's over water it becomes a three-dimensional search because the p3 and the p8 military planes that are used in anti-submarine warfare they electronically can see maybe something on the surface. in the indian ocean it can be up to two and a half miles deep so it would take a very small piece of finding something on the surface to then lead to maybe looking much deeper to find the evidence. so the fact that it's expanded over land means that not only do they have the ability to work in two dimensions but they also have the added ability as bob just mentioned to work with satellite photographs, and the satellite photographs which are tasked to take pictures on a regular baseis by all the intelligence agencies can then be analyzed, not only by the human eye but by computers. >> and it just, you're talking

about the difficulty there of searching over the water versus searching over the land, it occurs to me the indian ocean, to go south in the indian ocean you have depths up to like 12,000 feet there. i mean, it's so vast. there's so little around there. if this plane did go down and crash deep in the indian ocean, is there a possibility that this is something that just maybe we wouldn't be discovered for years, if ever? >> yes, you have to consider we're on day nine. if this was day one or day two, sure we might see something. when the plane crashes and the dewree hits the water there would be stuff even now nine days later. some of these things like a door would have an automatic spring to set out that chute which fills with air. it might very well be floating. you have the wind, the kushtcur, the sea state. it will be hard to crack back where it went nine days later.

the other thing authorities are working with is that the plane itself in the roof of it basically, just on the top, it sends out a signal. it's an automatic signal, and is it sending out that automatic signal, it appears that it was turned off by somebody, but what they didn't realize is even though it wasn't sending out any data it was sending out a signal and they're using that signal to try to track where the plane may have gone. >> that's interesting. kerry sanders from nbc, thank you. bob hager will stay with us for a little bit more. much more next when we talk to a former top ntsb investigator. stick with us. ♪

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we're back discussing the disappearance of flight 370. i want to turn to greg five a former ntsb senior air safety investigator and nbc aviation

news expert. greg thanks for taking time this morning. >> good morning, steve. >> i know we had you on yesterday. you tended to agree with the assessment that this plane had been intentionally diverted from its route by someone who knew what they were doing. we now have the malaysian authorities saying they have looking, visiting the homes of the pilots, they took a flight simulator i think from the pilot's home. i wonder from an investigative standpoint, there's all sorts of possibilities here we talked about, could have been a suicide thing, was there a pilot with a gun to his head, what types of things are you hoping to learn from visiting the pilots' homes and looking into them like this? >> well i think now that the authorities have gone in and been able to at least scour some of the personal records of both pilots and of course they're going to be looking at that simulator, they're going to see if there was any kind of dry run by the captain since he had the simulator, to see what kind of flying he may have been doing. some of that information will be

logged in a history file on the computer. so they may be trying to actually see if this pilot had done anything that would be characteristic or at least representative of the flight that actually we're talking about the last nine days. of course they're going to want to get into their backgrounds, political affiliations, associations, things like that. when the silk air accident occurred several years ago and we started to look into the captain's background, we found that there was a lot of life changes that he was going through both personally as far as his personal finances, his stature within the community and of course his airline. i think that the criminal authorities will be doing the same thing, just to see if there was a life change that may have been a motive for one or both of these pilots to do something intentional with this airplane. >> the other thing i wanted to ask you at this press conference this morning, malaysian authorities were asked if we keep hearing about these pings,

right, that indicate that the plane apparently kept going for up to seven hours after it lost contact, these pings used to establish broadly where it might be. they were asked if it's possible that the pings could have continued even if the plane was on the ground long as its electrical system was still running and the authorities said yes that's possible. do you see that at all as a possibility here that somehow this is a bit of a red herring, that it could have actually landed well before that seven, eight hours and continued pinging? >> they're being very careful as to what exact information they're getting from these specific pings. it's apparent that they must believe that each of these pings, once every hour, was in a different location, and i would think that if there were multiple pings stacked at one place that they would be focusing on that one particular area, but the search area has expanded, has expanded to both land and of course sea. so it may be that they believe that they may have narrowed down the geographic area, but they're

just not sure with the fidelity of this data, which isn't much, it's still they may have an area to look at but they don't have a specific point on the ground to look at. >> and bob just to pick up on something greg was saying, he brought up the silk air crash from 1997 i think it was. >> yep. >> there's still dispute over whether that was suicide or whether that was something else. i think you were also mentioning off the air i think it was an egypt air flight a few years earlier and lessons we could draw from that. >> i think greg feife was out there for that silk air investigation, a singapore airline that crashed in late 1997. earlier an egypt airplane had gone down in 1992 off nantucket out of jfk. that case it took a couple days to find the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder and

there was conclusive evidence once they found the boxes that the co-pilot of that plane while the pilot was out of the cockpit had brought the plane down intentionally. you heard him say these prayers to allah and coincided with the flight plane information he dived the nose into the ocean and they never were able to find anything in that guy's background in egypt that would lead you to believe that he was suicidal, never. so that's discouraging. >> they took the black box, another thing i've learned that i didn't know, greg, i heard you say it i think on the "today" show the black box only runs for two years and starts -- >> it's disappointing. ultimately it's possible that we may never know what happened but this whole thing is just unprecedented for a plane of this size with 239 passengers to go missing and it's been what, nine days now? just unbelievable. unprecedented. >> it is, what a mystery.

i thank former ntsb investigator greg feife and bob hager in the studio for joining us. switching away from the plane crash, harry reid can't and won't stop talking about the koch brothers. his effort to save the democrats and his own job of athis. ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!" [prof. burke] at farmers,we make you smarter [bell rings] about your insurance,because what you don't know can hurt you. what if you didn't know that home insurance can keep your stuff covered,even when it's not at home? or that collisions with wildlife on the road may not be covered. and what if you didn't know that you could be liable for any accidents on your property? the more you know,the better you can plan for what's ahead. talk to farmers and get smarter about your insurance.

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for a body in motion. i missed a payment. aw, shoot. shoot! this is bad. no! we're good! this is your first time missing a payment. and you've got the it card, so we won't hike up your apr for paying late. that's great! it is great! thank you. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness. so here's a question for you. which national democrat besides barack obama elicits the most hostility from the right? you can make a good case for nancy pelosi or maybe joe biden and give it another year or two, bill and hillary clinton could top that list, too. for now i'd have to give my vote to harry reid, the senate majority leader, the harry reid who tormented mitt romney during the 2012 campaign are loud, repeated and unsubstantiated claims that the republican presidential nominee hadn't paid taxes in ten years, the harry reid who a few months ago

orchestrated a senate rules change radically changing the filibuster power and most recently accusing republican senators of being "addicted to koch" not the draft drink but the mega wealthy brothers whose group is releasing a massive over the air campaign aimed at up seating democrat senators. he made that charge a week ago and the right to put it mildly didn't like it which is apparently what reid wanted because this past thursday he went back to the senate floor to make the charge again, this time a stronger and more emphatic terms. >> when senate republican senators rush to defend the koch brothers they're defending the koch' brothers radical philosophy and it's radical, how do we know it's roadical in they said so. they said one of the brothers kept harping on the fact that he has a radical philosophy and they do. so as my republican colleagues in the senate, i ask is even one

of you is even one of you willing to stand up and disavow the koch brothers' radical agenda? >> in response to the floor speech koch industries released this statement, "like most americans we believe his conduct is beneath his office and his statements about us are false. for the sitting majority leader to go out on the floor of the senate and single out two individuals and try to demonize them because they're exercising their first amendment rights we find thatter have, very troubling. senator reid is trying to save his job." reid is attacking the koch brothers now because the ads have the potential to help flip control of the senate to the gop and if that happens it would sfrip reid of his title as majority leader. reid settled on a strategy of making the koch name as politically toxic as possible and hoping the taint rubs off on

republican candidates this year. this is how harry reid plays politics, this is why the mere mention of his name is liable to provoke reflexive sneering from republicans and a little more than that. it's not just the way reid plays politics that infuriates his opponents. even when this seems like his time is finally up, when his bags of tricks is finally empty he still always seems to find a way to survive and end up back on top, at least that's how it has worked so far. it looked like it was all over for reid when he faced re-election in 2010. looked like he was a goner back then. the climate of 2010 was very bad for his party, he was the legislative face of the health care bill that was stirring a mighty backlash, poll numbers in nevada plunged to their lowest levels ever. the vote ares were tired of him, he was out of luck, then this happened. >> you know, before we all started having health care in the olden days our grandparents, they would bring a chicken to the doctor, they would say i'll

paint your house, they would do, that's the old days of what people would do to get health care with their doctors. doctors are very sympathetic people. i'm not backing down from that system. >> so that was sue lowden, originally supposed to be harry reid's toughest challenger in 2010, former republican senator and state republican chairwoman, someonew.h.o. could scoop up the voters from nevada ready to give reid the boot. no one thought she would answer a question about health care with bartering with doctors and chickens as a form of payment, though. so lowden compounded that mistake with others in the campaign trail and reid's campaign did all it could to fan the flames and before you knew it, voters in the nevada republican primary chose a different candidate to run against reid, they chose the candidate reid wanted to face all along, the one republican in nevada actually capable of losing to him in 2010. >> you know, if this congress keeps going the way it is,

people are really looking toward those second amendment remedies, they're saying, my goodness, what can we do to turn this country around, and i'll tell you, the first thing we need to do is take harry reid out. >> that is just a taste of the inflammatory far right rhetoric sh sharron angle spewed throughout the game, she talked of sharia law and hispanic students saying "some of you look more asian to me." some endorsed reid or went out of their way to praise him publicly. election day 2010 proved to be every bit the blood bath for democrats forecasted at the start of the year but in nevada in the face of that fierce anti-democratic tide and the worst poll numbers of his career, harry reid survived, he beat sharron angle by five points. voters were ready to throw him out but styed the alternative was worse and this wasn't just the ultimate political survival

act of 2010, this may have been one of the ultimate political survival acts of all-time. only twice in the previous generation had a sitting senator trailed his likely opponents by the margins reid was trailing his likely opponents to the start of an election year and managed to win but harry reid did it, he pulled it off and now those survival skills face two tests, the first is this november, the climate as we say is again rough for democrats, something made clear by a special house selection in florida earlier this week, with the republican candidate knocked off the democrat in what is a swing district, a district actually voted for barack obama in 2012. in the senate map, it is not favorable to democrats. they are defending seven seats in states that romney carried in 2012. the koch brothers will hardly be the only source of financial support for republicans this fall. so can harry reid hang onto his majority in november, can he hang onto his job as majority leader? if democrats lose their senate majority, would he face pressure to step aside to let someone

else lead the democratic caucus? the second survival test harry reid faces involves a most important and most consequential election you haven't heard anything about, the race for lieutenant governor of nevada. in nevada the gchb and lieutenant governor are elected separately. they don't have to be from the same party and the current lieutenant governor, a republican, term limited out this year, the race for nevada's number two job is wide open. nevada's current governor, brian sandoval, who is a republican, is expected to win re-election easily this november, he's a moderate pro-choice latino republican in a swing state growing increasingly reverse. he's the republican top choice to take on harry reid when reid's seat comes open in 2016. think of this, if sandoval, the governor, runs for the senate in 2016 and wins, then the new governor of nevada will be whoever wins the race for lieutenant governor this year, and if a democrat wins the race

for lieutenant governor this year, then sandoval, the republican party's best bet to beat reid, will be a lot less likely to run for the senate. this explains why as politico reported this week reid and his top political aide "spent months interviewing potential candidates, this he wanted someone who could win in a political environment this year that favors republicans with no presidential election driving democrats to the polls and sandoval cruising to re-election." this is who they came up in that race, meet lucy flores, a 34-year-old member of the state assembly. she announced her candidacy a few weeks ago and will run with the full support of reid and his formidable political operation. democrats are quickly closing ranks behind her. on the republican side it's more complicated. sandoval has made his choice known, endorsed mark hutcheson but he'll have to get a june primary against sue lowden, the same sue lowden who seemed to

win the senate nomination four years ago until she started talking about chickens and health care. now she's running for lieutenant governor and this time you can bet reid and his team are pulling for her to win. 2016 is a long way off. we don't know if harry reid will be the majority leader then, if not, he may not want to run for re-election. what he's doing in the race for lieutenant governor is to maximize his chances in 2016. this is the strategizing, the long-term planning, the cunning, whatever you want to call it, allowed him to survive for five terms in the senate and ten years as the democratic leader. that is the map who took to the senate floor this week to rail against the koch brothers. he knows republicans have a plan to end his majority rooen this fall and finish him off in nevada for good in 2016 and he has his plans of his own to beat them and survive. jim manley was the spokesman and senior communications adviser to

senator majority leader harry reid for six years, and press secretary to the late senator ted kennedy for 12 years. thanks for joining us >> my pleasure. >> i want to start with the koch brother attacks which harry reid seems to be taking point on this for democrats. >> yes. >> i guess if you go across the country and ask people who are the koch brothers, i think you're going to get a lot of shrugs, i don't know. i'm wondering if the strategy from reid's standpoint is does he want to raise public awareness of the koch brothers and stir some backlash against them or is this about energizing a democratic base that as we saw in this florida special election this week wasn't ready to turn out in 2014. >> i think it's a mixture of things, first of all it involves energizing the base. number two, he's also smart enough to realize that you also need a contrast in politics, you need to have an opponent, and the koch brothers fit that bill perfectly, and three, i think he's personally offended at the

idea that two billionaires are trying to run and pay for elections not only in congress but in states throughout the country. not for some greater good but to advance their own business interests, and he finds that morally offensive. >> it's the threat to his party and to his position as majority leader is particularly acute this year. as we say it's a lot of red states now where democrats hold senate seats where control is going to be decided. we've had this koch funded group spend heavily in north carolina, alaska, too, vulnerable democrats there. the house race in florida this week, there was no koch money, a lot of outside money but no koch money t led a congressman from kentucky, john yarmuth to tell the "new york times" he wishes there was a democratic super fook support democrat incumbents on the issue of the affordable care act. "i'm not in the superpack

business but we need a billionaire like tom steyer." >> couple different things, we've come late to the super pack business, something the republicans had long the upper hand in, moving slowly and surely in that direction. i'm not that comfortable but never a big fan of unilateral disarmt amount. number two there's no denying that the senate math looks tough right now. one of the things that we have going for us is such as someone like sharron angle and tell being repeated around the country where these folks start popping off and they start making the party so radioactive that folks when they go to the elections in november are going to say do i really want to trust, control the united states senate to a bunch of radical republicans?

so we'll see. >> there is the possibility of more of these tea party sharing types getting nominated this year. i wanted to just, you know reid really well obviously. when you think back to 2012 and mitt romney and the taxes, now he seems to be doing the same thing with the koch brothers. is there a reason why it's harry reid among democratic leaders in washington who takes on this task, something about him that makes him the only one who can do it or wants to do it? >> as his long time spokesman i can attest to the fact that unlike most politicians, he speaks what's on his mind. s' got a reputation for candor and frankness that most politicians don't have. and when he sees a problem, he goes out and attacks it. in years past, he called george bush not only a loser but a liar. he apologized for calling him a loser but he's never going to apologize for calling him a liar

because the president, the then president lied to him and his constituents in nevada over yucca mountain. he calls them like he sees them. >> it's really interesting, too, to have a leader of either party who is that outspoken and comes from really a swing state. usually when you come from the safe districts you can get away with a lot more. 2016 clearly already on harry reid's mind as well. jim manley, thank you for stopping by this morning and we will be right back. but tracking all the action and hearing everything from our marketing partners, the media and millions of fans on social media can be a challenge. that's why we partnered with hp to build the new nascar fan and media engagement center. hp's technology helps us turn millions of tweets, posts and stories into real-time business insights that help nascar win with our fans.

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campaign manager argued in new jersey state superior court on tuesday that their clients have a fifth amendment right not to comply with the committee subpoenas, that they do not have to incriminate themselves potentially by turning over documents to the investigative committee of the state legislature. the lawyer for the legislative committee sees it differently. >> this is not, has not been and the subpoenas are not fishing expeditions of any sort. quite the opposite we have presented to your honor communications in the form of e-mails, both from mr. steppian and miss kelly or between them on this very topic. >> but what kelly and steppian's lawyers argue they haven't argued the documents are relevant to the case. they would not concede his client wrote the august 13th "time for some traffic problems"

e-mail. >> i do not concede that my client sent this. the government has to prove it. it has been provided to us by a third party who's on the e-mail change who could authenticate it. if the standard is everyone can withhold everything until some third party has come forward and provided an affidavit that says this is authentic, no one's going to be able to ever get anything in response to a subpoena. >> schar, the legislative committee's counsel, also suggested that other documents the committee has received from other people it has subpoenaed point to kelly and steppian as key players. the judge in the case, mary jacobson suggested further legal written argument from two sides in the next two weeks. kelly and steppian are the only who people refusing to comply. wisniewski said the speed at which everyone else has

supplying has slowed the pace. it seems like it's taking forever and that was certainly not the intention. there must be a legal explanation for everything that is happening. we turn to paul butler who at the department of justice specialized in public corruption and while there part of the team indicted senator david durenberger in the 1990s and criminal defense attorney brian weiss who successfully worked to overturn the money laundering conviction of former republican house majority leader tom delay. welcome back to both of you. brian, i'll start with you. the basic thing we know is that the lawyers for bridgette kelly and bill steppian are asserting a fifth amendment claim here. can you explain what they are trying to tell the judge whether what they are trying to tell the judge is likely to resonate with her? >> sure. everybody who has ever taken civics class or heard of the g

mag magna carta recognizes no one in this great country can be compelled to give testimony against themselves, whether that means having a confession beaten out of you in a precinct in queens or having to turn over documents that you believe may incriminate you, certainly the fifth amendment and it's made applicable through the states through the 14th doesn't compel to you ultimately make the state's case. paul will tell new a second, that privilege, that right doesn't necessarily apply when it comes to documents to do i think ultimately their fifth amendment claim will carry the day regards to having to turn over certain documents probably not but it doesn't mean that good lawyers don't make that claim. >> so there is a distinction here then between if you incriminate yourself in writing you're not protected by the fifth amendment, if you incriminate yourself orralally are? >> normally it doesn't apply to

text messages or e-mails but they are saying we got this subpoena that says give us all of your documents related to bridge gate. if we have to say this applies to bridge gate and this doesn't, that's testified and therefore we have an act or production privilege. it's not a bad argument, but at the end of the day, they're going to lose because everybody knows these e-mails came from bridgette kelley, the one that says "time for some traffic problems" they've got it from other people saying with her name on it, so when the law gets this for removed from common sense it's the kind of thing that makes people not respect the law. >> that's the thing i think that people were most confused about and brian maybe as a defense lawyer you can explain this, that part of the proceedings this week where bridgette kelley's lawyer would not concede the "time for some traffic problems" e-mail that everybody has seen her e-mail address on, came from her august 13th, he would not concede that

that came from her. what is the point of that and does that insult the judge's intelligence in some way? >> i don't know if it insults the judge's intelligence, steve. i think he's doing his job. look, what you need to understand is that in the criminal justice system, there's no shot clock, and defense attorneys will do what they can. as they're doing in this case to go to the four corners to try to run time out on the clock to take some of the momentum away from this legislative committee's inquiry, and all that these lawyers are doing are making arguments that they believe have some basis in fact, some basis in law, is that the argument that carries the day? i don't think so. but he knows that if you were to concede anything in this business, the minute you start conceding that your client had the proverbial smoking gun or the scandalous e-mail, you're going to be working at dave & buster's. >> you're talking about adding time here, running out the clock a little bit, that brings in the question of the u.s. attorney

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we're back with paul butler and brian weiss. one of the conventional wisdom has been whether it's bridgette kelley, bill steppian or david wildstein, they'd ultimately like to get a deal with the u.s. attorney for new jersey. i wonder if, paul, the fact that bridgette kelley was in the courtroom this week, bill steppian's lawyer was there but he wasn't there, bridgette kelley made a point of being there, do you read into that at all as having, a strategic purpose to that? >> absolutely, steve. i think that was an act of defiance. she was saying i'm here. i'm part of this case. now whether it was defiance at the governor or defiance at the investigators remains to be seen but her lawyer made this extraordinary statement at a press conference, where he said

look, my client is unemployed now, thanks to governor christie who called her stupid and a liar. she's a single mom of four. does anybody have a job for her? sounds like she's mad and it sounds like she's mad at the governor. >> that sounds like somebody who would like to cut a deal to talk a little bit and that gets me to the question for you, brian. one thing i've been trying to figure out is are there, is there potentially a federal crime here and if it's ultimately determined by the u.s. attorney it's not a federal crime, maybe that it was a state crime but not a federal crime, is there then no role for the u.s. attorney? >> well, look, paul fishman is as we say in tv, the showrunner, the executive producer. what's going on down the highway in trenton as i understand it is just spring training. this case doesn't begin in earnest until paul fishman is in charming and i would think he's not going to invest the manpower and the energy and the aggravation of the u.s. attorney's office in newark if

he didn't think there was more here than meets the eye. the other thing that i think that bears comment is bridge ye anne kelley's lawyer has a reputation for being a deal maker, when it comes time as we say in west texas to cut that deal he's going to be the guy who seems to do just that. >> we will have you back as i'm sure this unfolds over the next few weeks and months, the story in a holding pattern until we maybe see some documents or get a ruling from the judge. my thanks to former prosecutor paul butler and criminal defense attorney brian wice. what the scandal in new jersey could mean for someone named bush, that's next. aflac, aflac, aflac! ♪ [ both sigh ] ♪ ugh! ♪ you told me he was good, dude. yeah he stinks at golf. but he was great at getting my claim paid fast. how fast? mine got paid in 4 days.

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more than $12 million were poured into the battle for this swing district, a district that republican congressman bill young represented for 42 years but that barack obama carried in 2008 and 2012. this election was significant not only for two won but for how they won. jolly attacked obama, obama care and the obama administration's cuts to providers under medicare advantage. in short jolly ran against owe bo 'bama. alex sink responded with a strong keep and fix message defending the affordable care act but hampered by low turnout. what the race means for other close races coming up in arkansas, louisiana and north carolina has been widely debated this week. but there are other national implications to consider as well. to do so we have to travel north to new jersey because over the past few weeks chris christie has taken a political hit as investigations continue into allegations of possible abuse of power by his administration, allegations including improper lane closures of the georgia

washington bridge, inappropriate handling of sandy relief money and david sampson using his chair of the port authority to advance his own business interests. christie's reputation has taken a hit and his farvelt in new jersey is now for the first time under water. more people in the state say they disapprove of the job the governor is doing than approve. new "wall street journal"/nbc news poll out this week shows christie's national numbers have flipped, too. positively by 33% of the public and negatively 17% in october the numbers are almost the exact opposite. he's losing crucial support from big republican donors. bloomberg's max abellson reported wall street republicans have started shopping around for a new candidate now that their one-time favorite chris christie is fighting off the scandal broadly known as bridge gate. so where for these republicans to turn? wall street donors are

definitely playing the field, meeting with a range of candidates but there is one potential nominee who seems to be standing out, that is former florida governor jeb bush, in addition to being the son and the brother of u.s. presidents, he's a senior adviser at barclay's capital, securities arm of the london bank, leads people with close wall street ties to say "if jeb says i'm in, i think all the wall street money goes to him" that's money from people like hank greenberg who ran aig for decades and likes bush's experience governing in the private sector, he's looking to are for a candidate away from the view we should take from the rich and give to the poor, that's not precise messaging bush would use but wall street owners aren't the only ones touting jeb bush this week, brings us back to the florida special election tuesday. in the aftermath of that, with all the sides pushing their different spin, some republican insiders were trying to credit

jeb bush for david jolly's win. "the washington post" robert costa reported this, "a major factor in jolly win per several republican insiders, jeb's support and the ad he cut." now whether that's true is quite debatable but what's significant here, republicans and insiders used this opportunity to promote jeb bush. the ad that bush cut for jolly was one of the very few positive campaign ads to run in the last few weeks down there. florida voters were reintroduced for a man who hasn't run in office in their state since 2002. >> your next congressm needcong to know how to get things dohe' always stand up for you and for florida. he'll fight wasteful spending and help create good jobs. if you want a strong voice for pinellas county in washington, send dave jolly to congress. i support him, and i hope you will, too. >> the u.s. chamber of commerce

is responsible for the content of this advertising. >> a smiling, positive jeb bush talking straight to the camera for 30 seconds, brought the florida voters by none other than the chamber of commerce, the political arm of big business interests, brand synonymous with the republican establishment. cbs news/"new york times" poll found more republicans wanted bush to run more than any other candidate. that hasn't put him at the top of trial heats ben prospective candidates are matched against each other. as the invisible primary plays out as possible candidates are vetted by donors and political insiders woo party activists, if chris christie's falling star an opening for another bush to seek the presidency? here to discuss this steven moore the chief economist at the heritage foundation as well as contributor to the "wall street journal" and mark caputo, political reporter at "the miami herald." steve, the idea that the republican establishment, the

traditional wall street republican establishment is reevaluating chris christie and starting to look toward jeb bush, is that something you are picking up on and why? >> absolutely, steve. i think your report was spot on, and one of the things i've always said about republicans over the last 50 years they have always done something unfailingly. they always pick the nominee for president who is next in line, whether it was nixon or reagan or dole or bush or mccain or mitt romney and tfz as of three months ago the next in line was chris christie. you're right, he has faltered. i don't think his faltering is necessarily critical but a lot of especially the kind of establishment republicans are looking around to see who might take his place. there's a minnut mini boomlet f bush. it would be interesting to have a 2016 election, i'm not necessarily endorsing this, another bush versus another clinton.

>> i know one of those names i think right now polls a little better than the other when it comes to last name but mark, my view on jeb bush being a presidential candidate for a while has been sort of dismissive. he hasn't been on a pal lot since 2002. i haven't been taking the prospect that seriously until really this week but mark, i know you're still very skeptical on the idea that jeb bush would want to do this, give us your reasons why. >> well knowing what i know of the former governor is the last time he ran was 2002 and he loves governing and doesn't like the pettiness and silliness of campaigning and since 2002 the pettiness and silliness of campaigning has increased exponentially with the rise of twitter and logs and all that. aim not sure the establishment candidate this time makes it around. if you didn't like marco rube y rubio's reform legislation you're not going to like jeb bush and the common core educational standards which are

a bugaboo among many conservatives, that's one of things he's pushing is the common core educational standards initiative. put those things together and look at his personality. he doesn't seem to really want to do it. he's not showing signs that he's interested. yes, he's saying look, i'll make the decision later but unlike say marco rubio, who has a political committee that's expanding its donor base, getting donors in every state and looks like he's positioning himself to run for president, jeb bush doesn't and by the way, a few weeks ago on long island at a speech when jeb bush was asked about his last name he said yeah, might be an issue. clinton's name might be an issue as well. i put all those things together as personality, the changing in campaigning, the changing of the republican party when it comes to nominating someone and i just don't see it right now. maybe it will change, maybe i'll be wrong, one thing when he was governor he loved showing the press corps, me and the others that we're wrong and perhaps he'll do it again.

>> i just want to fit one thing in here quickly, because mark mentions the common corps. this is an interesting and revealing moment, this past week jeb bush was in tallahassee and met with a couple protesters who don't like the common core, a scathing letter saying their collateral damage will soon include the politicians who have supported your flawed initiative. they demand the removal of common core in no uncertain terms." to mark's point of how much the republican party has changed since jeb bush ran who is jeb bush's constituency in the republican party if he were to run? >> i think that you guys are right, that i think his endorsement of common core is going to be a negative for him especially in the aftermath of obama care, conservative voters don't want to federalize anything, least of all education. i've known jeb bush for 25 years. i like him a lot. i'm not endorsing anybody right

now. i think there are a lot of attractive candidates like rand paul. let me make the case for why jeb bush might make a really good republican candidate. nominee. number one, he is from florida and republicans cannot win the white house if they don't win florida and they haven't been doing that lately. number two, he speaks spanish, he does very well with latino voters, something extremely attractive to republicans. they've got to do better with latinos, and number three, if you look at his record as governor, i would say and i do a lot of work on state policy, there has been no governor in america over the last 20 years who has a more superior record in terms of creating jobs, economic growth than jeb bush. >> i guess the interesting question and mark talks about the changing republican party, the thing we have to find out is the interest that he's generating from wall street, the work that he's done sort of in private finance, if that is now

more of a liability with the republican party base than in 1998 and 2002 when he was winning elections how he manages that background if he tries to run in a national campaign in the republican party. thanks to steven moore of the heritage foundation and mark caputo. we'll be back after this. uhhh. no, that can't happen. that's the thing, you don't know how long it has to last. everyone has retirement questions. so ameriprise created the exclusive.. confident retirement approach. now you and your ameripise advisor can get the real answers you need. well, knowing gives you confidence. start building your confident retirement today. hey kevin...still eating chalk for hearburn? yea. try alka seltzer fruit chews. they work fast on heart burn and taste awesome. these are good. told ya! i'm feeling better already. alka-seltzer fruit chews. enjoy the relief!

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would you like to see your son, jeb run? >> he's by far the best qualified man but no. i really don't. i think it's a great country. there are a lot of great families, and it's not just four families or whatever. there are other people out there that are very qualified and we've had enough bushes. >> enough bushes, as barbara bush saying almost a year ago she did not want to see her son, jeb, run for president.

last week she tried to walk back her statement. >> in this country which is such a great country that there are more than three families, but then i read the bully pulpit i think by doris kearns-goodman, and she points out that in 1700, there were only three families. so maybe it's okay. it just seemed to me ridiculous in a country this size that we didn't have other families. >> if it worked in 1700, so i guess maybe it is okay if there's another bush in the white house. joining me to talk about is blake zith and casey hunt, political reporter and producer here at nbc news. casey, we got into this a little bit in the segment before, but i think one of the questions here obviously is if you're a republican and you're the christie thing looks shaky and saying maybe giving jeb bush a second look, you have to look at

that possibility of a bush/clinton matchup in 2016 where the country sort of weighing those two names. the clinton name right now just gentlemen m generically does a lot better than the bush name. >> that's the hesitation about a jeb bush candidacy all the way along, a big part of why there is some little bit of well maybe jeb should have run in 2012 but the hesitancy regarding his name was more intense in 2012 than now. it's going to remain a problem for him. to have this matchup of two dynasties would be pretty unbelievable. you're right, republicans are casting around for who is going to be their sort of establishment favorite and there's a lot of sort of longing for jeb bush, if you will. people who are now trying to get him to reconsider, and it's interesting. he played actually pretty heavily in the florida '13 congressional race. i tooing that as a sign and republicans took that as a sign

maybe he was willing to jump in further than they initially thought. >> seems like the timing isn't a coincidence. he see this is happening to christie and sees maybe an opening to get his name back in the news. what does it say, too, blake, about the republican party? christie i understood until all of this as a logical candidate for the establishment to try to get the party to rally around but now you're talking about somebody we could talk about the bush baggage just the name itself and somebody who has been out of politics for a long time. i was trying to think of somebody, 2016 will be 14 years since the name jeb bush was last on the ballot. i'm trying to think of a president elected with that kind of a gap. i can think of one candidate, paul tsongas in 1992. >> first, now that doris kearns-goodman has given him the okay to run that changes everything. no, what you're seeing is wall street does not want to see him

sit an election out, they had their money on chris christie and chris christie made a lot of sense for them, fallen underard times. i think it's hard for him to run a competentent presidential campaign with the legal proceedings hanging over him. wall street doesn't love the populism that you see on the right any more than they love the populism on the left so you have people tea party oriented candidates like a rand paul or ted cruz who are disposed to use that rhetoric. that's not something that wall street loves either so they're casting about right to find someone who they feel comfortable with and jeb bush does sort of fit that criteria. scott walker is another one. >> the sort of magical candidate here for that wall street republican establishment is in this post meltdown america where there's this sort of resentment towards the top 1% that even you see in republican conservative populism, they want somebody who will pitch a top 1% message but has like 99% appeal.

chris christie clearly fit that. i don't know if bush does but i can't see who else. >> wall street is fundamentally risk-averse, right? they don't want a candidate like a rand paul or a ted cruz who is going to throw these bombs and do from their point of view unpredictable things. if you look at the influence that not just wall street but the business community at large has had on capitol hill over the course of the last two years, frankly it's been very much diminished from what it has been historically, and you're seeing them now, the business community, trying to play in some of the republican primaries that are happening in the midterms and they're not really making much of a difference at this point either. they're not used to being aggressive in the electoral settings. whether they can settle on a candidate that even if they decide that jeb bush is their guy and they're going to throw everything behind him and whether that's going to be successful is i think an open question. >> i wouldn't necessarily bet on that. the other issue with jeb is marco rubio, wants to run. this is supposed to be his protege. >> i'll give an example, hillary clinton is probably going to run

or maybe going to run in new york. andrew cuomo would love to be president but their donors and institutional supporters are probably not going to be with them if hillary clinton runs so they'll sit it out. in florida if you have two prominent people running, both republicans, they share similar donors and institutional supporters, looks really hard to see how both of them can fit into there so it will be interesting to see marco rubio is the talk of the town a couple years ago, fell on harder times when he had the audacity to support immigration reform, now he may be on the upswing again. it's hard to see how bush could proceed with this without looking carefully at what marco rubio so. >> the last segment, what happened to marco rubio was his fall from grace on the right was immigration, and that's the same achilles heel at least within the republican universe that jeb bush would presumably have. i that i blake zeff for coming in, appreciate it. also updating you on the search

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[bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!" ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good. if you're like me you have been counting down today for a long time now. today is selection sunday, the day that the 68-team field for the ncaa basketball tournament is unveiled, who is in, who is out? we'll find out everything about nine hours from now and in a few weeks from now we'll tear up our pasted brackets and curse our co-worker, the one who has never watched a second of college basketball but wins the office pool and picked some no named school pause his wife's money went there, and we love it anyway. so what does selection sunday

have to do with politics? well, we know that president obama makes a show of filling out his bracket ever year, plenty of politicians are happy to brag about their home state schools during march madness. this year the tournament is a proxy battle between two politically active balance narz, the home of the witch saw state shockers, they're undefeated, the first team to reach the tournament without a loss in 23 years and they will be one of the top seeded teams when the bracket is announced today. this is a very unlikely story, this is an underdog story because wichita state plays in a small conference that doesn't get much attention, the school is hardly a traditional powerhouse in college basketball. in the last few years they've become a beast, one of the reasons for the rise is charles koch, one of the koch brothers. he's a wichita native in the decade ago he gave $ million to the school's aging arena for a radical makeover, and what had

been known as leavitt arena became charles koch arena, one of the most intimidating atmospheres for a visiting team to play in. coach greg marshall was asked by espn last week what living person he most admires, it's charles koch he told them. "an incredibly brilliant man who has made ace fortune with great integrity and commitment to the community." wichita state is not the only underdog with a billionaire backer. week ago saturday creighton bluejays won their regular season conference championship and the blue jays aren't exactly a college basketball blue blood but they have blue chip support. that's right, that is warren buffett right there, one you have the richest men in america an omaha native sporting not one, not two, not three, not four but five creighton tattoos on his face for that big game last week. couple angles to that picture,

there were five tattoos there. i think they're the peel-off kind but that is a sign of a serious fan. so there you go, we have found a way to mix college basketball with political pludocrats. whatever you think of the two men, they are not backing the big and powerful teams in college basketball. they're actually like most americans here, they like the underdog. it's true in sport, it's true in politics, there is nothing more american than a cinderella story. the enduring appeal of the underdog, that's what we'll talk about after this. e. [ whistle blowing ] where do you hear that beat? campbell's healthy request soup lets you hear it in your heart. [ basketball bouncing ] heart healthy. [ m'm... ] great taste. [ tapping ] sounds good. campbell's healthy request. m'm! m'm! good.®

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you're not doing anything as fast as you used to, which is funny, because i still do it better than her. [ afi ] i do not like sweeping. it's a little frustrating. [ zach ] i can't help out as much as i used to. do you need help? let's open it up. [ afi ] it's a swiffer sweeper. [ zach ] it's a swiffer dusters. it can extend so i don't have to get on the step stool. ♪ it's like a dirt magnet -- just like my kids. [ afi ] this is a danger zone. voila! i am the queen of clean! [ zach ] yeah, this definitely beats hanging out on a step ladder. so before we get to politics and the ncaa and underdogs we first want to bring you up to speed on the latest on the investigation into the missing malaysian jetliner. new information we just learned in the last couple hours, malaysian transport minister says the investigation into the missing jetliner has entered a "new phase." refocusing on the passengers and the pilots on board flight

mh-370. authorities say even the ground crew who handled the plane is now in question. malaysian police searched the homes of the pilot and the co-pilot this weekend and authorities are now examining da i ta from a flight simulator found at the pilot's home. meanwhile, the new search area expanded over large stretches of land. the number of nations involved has nearly doubled. malaysian authorities are asking countries with surveillance and satellite assets for help in scouring this amplified search zone. according to the airline, the pilots did not request to fly together the day the plan have annished and the boeing 777 was not carrying any additional fuel. we'll keep you up to date on the latest into the investigation all day long here on msnbc. now we will transition a little awkwardly to the topic we were, with he brought some guests in here, but it's underdogs and of all of the major sports, college basketball is my favorite because it is the most democratic with a small

"d." over 300 schools compete from duke in north carolina to the ones that only the junkies know like the wafford terriers or south dakota state jackrabbits. every single one begins the year with the same opportunity, you win your conference and make the ncaa tournament. you win the ncaa tournament the national title is yours. as we said earlier today is selection sunday, day when the 68-team tournament bracket is unveiled and march madness begins. granted the big named teams usually do end up dominating the tournament, but you never really know what's going to happen and when one of those tiny schools knocks off a goliath, it's pure magic. it reminds even the most cynical among us that anything is possible. it's good for our souls. take what happened in 2005, little vermont against mighty syracuse, the underdog catamounts battled their way into overtime clinging to a one-point lead, the crowd is wanting to believe it could happen and this guy,

t.j.sorentine takes a shot you're never supposed to take from about 30 feet out and it goes in. look at their coach. look at the sideline, look at the crowd. it should give you chills. when tom brennan was asked about the final minutes of that game he said "the kids came over to the bench and i started yelling, we've got them right where we want them. we have a chance to beat syracuse in overtime. it's the ncaa tournament. where else would you want to be?" he continued "i just lied my butt off, i wasn't thinking we had them where we wanted them, i just lied but the kids were different, they believed." they did beat the odds and take down syracuse. that shot is now immortalized in ncaa tournament lore, one of the all-time great underdog moments in a tournament that derived so much of its appeal from the romance of the underdog and that romance, that notion that no matter how steep the odds you do have the power to wheel your way to victory is deeply embedded in american culture. we love a good underdog story

and it's as true in politics as it is in sports. in june of 2006 almost as far out from the 2008 presidential elections we now are from 2016, gallup polled a list of hopefuls from the 2008 democratic nomination. then senator barack obama didn't even make it onto that list. that's how far from the radar he was back then but he went on to defeat hillary clinton for the nomination and john mccain for the presidency. the story of barack obama's ascendancy from state senator in illinois to president of the united states in four short years is the quintessential underdog tale. he bet against the odds and he won. he won big. of course just like in the ncaa tournament the underdogs usually don't end up winning the big prize in politics. george mcgovern in 1972, gary hart in 1984, paul tongas in 1982. we remember them because for a brief moment they defied political gravity and captured our imaginations, only to be done in by cold hard reality.

politicians actively seek the underdog mantle, they want to be seen as fighters struggling to overcome the insurmountable, they want to be underestimated in a 2009 marketing study researchers at harvard called it the underdog brand biography, firms offer a historical account of their humble origins, lack of resources and determined struggle against the odds. it's trendy. american politics would not be what it is without these kinds of candidates, without the people willing to fight the good fight even if the chances of winning are slim. it's the same in sports. ncaa tournament needs its power house teams but it also needs its vermonts. we're drawn to underdog stories, why people remember the titans, why they run up the stairs like rocky, why we root for the team from hoosiers, why people believe in hope and change, why they're standing with wendy in texas and why the ron paul supporters no matter what you

think of their ideology were relentless in 2012 even though the odds of winning grew longer and longer. who are the most compelling underdogs in politics and in sport right now? joining me to answer these questions we still have with us nbc news kasie hunt and devin harris a three-time winter olympian and member of the original jamaican bobsled team and they were immortalized in the 1993 "cool runnings" bill hillsman, creative brain behind a political brain that won paul wellstone's stocking victory in minnesota and tom brennan the coach of 29005 university of vermont basketball team we were just celebrating on the air. welcome to all of you. thanks so all of us. tom i'll start with you. we showed your game, to me what the underdog story in sports is all about. i remember watching that game, a game i'll never forget watching, i was off my chair cheering for vermont in that game, it's why i love the tournament because something like that can happen

there and you watch it and it gives you hope i think >> absolutely, we did it without the koch brothers or warren buffett, so that made it even more impressive, but yes, it's the whole idea, steve, of you really believing, the first way for it to happen is that you really have to believe that it can happen. that's the number one thing and then of course you need a little help. you have to play your best and the other guy has to drop off a little bit and that's what happened with us in syracuse. >> i have to ask you, we showed the shot, what were you thinking when t.j.sorentine pulled up from 30 feet out? >> it was interesting because i said to him, you know, he had held the ball and i said run red. we had set up this little play we thought might work. i said run red. he put his hand out and went "i got it, i got it." then he turned and shot it. i thought, you got it?! that's one of the worst shots in ncaa college basketball but it went in and it's all good after that. >> sounded like a movie. speaking of movies, the jamaican bob sled team did not win the gold medal at the 1980s

olympics. we're showing up and actually qualifying was in itself a victory for people who don't know the story, tell us about it. how did you get the idea to field a bob sled team from jamaica and how did you get to iccalgar calgary? >> two americans who lived in jamaica saw the push cars guys race down a mountain road and thought it looked like bob sledding except for the ice. >> a big difference. >> a small difference. it's all in the details. but then discovered that you need sprinters for the start and guess where we have lots of those. the guys in the summer team didn't want to do it. they came to the army, i was a young lieutenant and my colonel says i think you should go for the bob sled team trials. it became an opportunity for me to live a dream i had of competing in the olympic games and yes, it was a steep climb. we were the quintessential underdogs and i think it's difficult, tom, when you're training and the world expects

you not to win, but you have to believe as tom says in yourself so we worked hard and next thing i know we're in the olympics. >> in your experience as the underdog it's a little different. his team got the actual victory moment where they beat the mighty team. you didn't win the medal but i think just being there you won the respect of that of the crowd. >> completely and i think that's the thing that resonates with the world, with our team and i think generally people have this natural impulse to root for the underdog. why? because at some stage in our lives we've all been an underdog, we've all had this thick this we wanted that we had to work hard for and the obstacles were against us. they see jamaica coming from the tropics and competing in a winter sport it reminds them of the times when they had dreams that they didn't pursue because it seemed so difficult or impossible or people cheered or jeered and to see us take on the

challenge and won some hearts, no medals. >> i still think of it. bill in politics, what devin is describing, is there something to that in, we talked about that harvard marketing study from 2009. that seems a powerful message for a politician to run as the underdog and to be sort of standing there channeling this hope that people feel that i can overcome the odds for politicians to capture that. how does a politician capture that? >> in advertising we call them challenger brands but it's really the underdog situation and in a race like paul wellstone's, jesse ventura, tom's right, the people have to believe that this can happen but that belief is inbred in us. we started out as an underdog country and the notion in democracy is that you can run for office. your neighbor can run for office, and probably do a better job than people who are in there right now, but that's the notion

of democracy and we love it, when that actually happens. >> kasie, in politics to be an underdog do you have to be the challenger? i guess harry truman as the. the in '48 pulled it off but you got to be the challenger, is that right? >> that's how i see it. mitt romney tried to sort of present himself as an underdog in 2012 and while he may actually have been the underdog compared to president obama, nobody perceived him to be the underdog. he was seen as the wealthy pludocrat. that doesn't lend us to the narrative we're talking about. in politics people want to see that someone is working really hard and getting where they want to go. that's something that they feel like they can apply to their own lives and i will say also there is a fine line between an underdog and a loser and if you get too far on the other side of that line in politics it can quickly go south. >> you could be seen as just fringe. we'll pick this up on the other side and we'll have an update

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and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models. i'm going to have to tack fast. this is my wife and children, a house where i lived for 24 deals, i've worked with minnesota farmers for years. we must stop the poisoning of the air, land and water. i've been a teacher for 24 years. >> paul wellstone won't slow down after he's elected. vote for paul wellstone november 6th >> that was the fast paul ad ran in 1909. wellstone in particular used campaign ads to underscore his underdog image. we are lucky to have at mastermind behind the ads. take us back to that campaign, the late paul wellstone is somebody who had a lot of admirers in a grassroots

democratic party of what he did in office but really the or origin story, the rickety bus, in a race nobody thought he was going to win. take us back to the campaign. >> i was in advertising at the time and like most people in the united states, we in advertising were wondering why were political ads so bad. i knew paul from college and he asked me to do his campaign because he said i understand you need advertising if you're going to run for the united states senate. i said that's probably a good idea because nobody in this state knows who you are. and paul decided to hire us on. we did that for a spot, when we showed it to the campaign, they thought it was a joke. they wouldn't run it. paul was in danger in the primary losing to somebody who didn't have a campaign. they put the ad up in the last

week of the primary and it went off like a rocket. everybody loved it. >> i can only imagine in the 24, 25 years later in the viral age the youtube age something like that would just take off. i know you kind of made a career there of being the consultant for underdogs, jesse ventura elected against the odds in minnesota and tom as a coach, your career you were at vermont for a long time. you retired that season, that same season we showed that clip from. interests athere's a big difference between coaching in vermont or a north carolina or duke. did you ever want to move to the bigger school with the bigger budget or did you like being the coach of the underdog team? >> i did like it very much and i fell in love with vermont, one of the most beautiful states in the country, and they took me in. my first two years i was 8-50, i was going to be selling insurance by the time this came around. they kept with me and we got better and it became something

special. i knew people would say i was there in the beginning. i'd say no, i know who was there in the beginning because i was there. it was a love affair with the state and it just made everybody so proud and that made me proud and it was something we shared with everybody in the state and people took it and ran with it. it was a delightful time in my life. >> devon, a similar question, jamaica does have athletes who can excel at the summer games but the fact you guys went to the winter games, went to calgary, when you came back home, did that give you a sort of special stature in jamaica, so totally different athletically? >> i was in the army at the time so my job was surrounded with bobsledding and army. i'd take my bobsledding uniform off, put my army uniform on and went back to work. the challenge is people

experience it on tv as opposed to track or soccer but that is changing and people are getting a lot more behind the team. >> we are going to be back with this panel in a minute to get some of their favorite underdogs. first we want to bring you the latest in the search for that missing malaysian jetliner, malaysian transport minister says 25 nations are now taking part in the search for that malaysia airlines flight. 11 more countries joined the search after tfz determined that the missing plane may have gone as far north ads central asia. let's go to nbc's kerry sanders with more on the day's developments. there are a lot of theories out there. what do we know as hard facts at this moment. >> it's a great question, there are so few of them. let's take you first of all with the telestrator to the map and as we tyke a look at this, this is a hard fact because what they do know is this route, where the plane was lost contact, and they know the areas out to the west and the malacca strait where

they began searching. we move forward and look at the region this concentrated effort has been looking along the edge here along the water's edge for some type of wreckage. then they opened it up to the sea of bengal here, and downher. and down here to the indian ocean. remember, when we consider the size of the indian ocean just alone, that's more than twice the size of the continental united states. that's a huge area. now adding in here up in central asia that land mass. so when you start looking at the amount of area that they're looking at, you can see that it's really a challenge. even with additional countries getting involved -- for instance, the united states navy has p-3 and p-8 aircraft that are airborne. those aircraft are primarily used for anti-submarine warfare. but they can see day or night with their electronics along the top of the water. if there's something floating there, and it could be something small. it could be just the door of the plane. they'll pick it up and zero in on it.

but even if they're able to find that, what they really need is they need the black boxes, as they're called. the flight data recorder. so to get down and find that could be extremely difficult because it would have sunk down in the water and gone down perhaps quite a difference from where they actually find this floating piece of debris on the surface. and let's add one more wrinkle to this. because this plane was airborne for more than seven hours, those flight data recorders, there's more than one in there, one of the things they do is record the voice of the pilot and co-pilot. a lot of people are asking questions about the pilot and co-pilot. but it only records two hours. so this initiated an hour into flight. the flight was airborne for more than seven hours. the initial conversations we will never hear them. >> yeah, i never realized that about the black box until now. nbc's kerry sanders with good information there in d.c. msnbc will have continuing

coverage of the missing malaysia plane all day. we'll be right back. take 4 advil in a day which is 2 aleve... ...for all day relief. "start your engines"

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all right. we have a few quick seconds left with our guests here. we've been talking about underdogs in sports and politics. i thought we'd ask right now at this moment, we have the ncaa basketball tournament. we have a lot going on in politics. do you have a favorite political or ncaa tournament underdog right now? bill, we'll start with you. >> the conditions that need to be there for a big upset would be progressive voters, independent voters. when they come out, then it throws everything. my message would be, if you want to see these types of upsets, progressives and independents are the key to it. in terms of races, we all know what's going on with the tea party and the republican. progressives have a lot of power in democratic primaries. and one race i've been looking at it john tierney's race up in massachusetts. there's a good progressive challenger. so that's a race to watch.

>> tom? >> speaking of massachusetts, harva harvard. >> come on. >> they'll be a 12 seed. i'll give you a real long shot. steven f. austin from texas who's won 23 games in a proep. >> i like that one better. >> casey? >> basketball, george washington university is my alma mater. politically speaking, i think rand paul is the underdog to watch. he's got some of the underdog qualities his father had, but he's making some moves with big donors that could put him in a position to win. >> devin? >> i don't have a current underdog. historically, the 1980 hockey team. >> those are some great choices. there we go. i want to thank bill, tom, casey, and devin. thanks for getting up. thank you for joining us. up next, melissa harris-perry with jonathan capehart. what happens when president obama finds himself sitting between a firm and a hard place? and the very latest on the mysterious missing malaysian

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who's that sitting between a fern and a hard place? plus, the new study on how police perceive young black men and the unlikely champions for justice in texas. first, the biggest mystery in the world today, where is flight 370? good morning. i'm jonathan capehart in for melissa harris perry. the search for malaysia airlines flight 370 and the 239 people on board is growing ever more expansive. this morning, the malaysian minister of transportation announced that the area being searched is bigger than ever. >> the search area has been significantly expanded, and the nature of the search has changed