i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more. so maybe we need to approach things differently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪ thanks for disrupting your afternoon. i'm karen finney. in this hour, an update on the search for missing malaysian flight 370. and we'll look at the president's trip to europe for meetings with world leaders as they determine next steps in confronting russia. we've also got a showdown coming up in the supreme court about whether your boss is also the boss of your body. and what happens when women stand their ground? it's all coming up. >> new satellite images showing once again what could be debris from that missing malaysia airlines plane. >> this is like looking for something somewhere between new

york and california. >> the focus will shift deeper into the south indian ocean. >> now the multinational effort has gone decidedly low tech. >> a fleet of planes from the u.s., australia, and new zealand have been out all day. >> that search so far finding nothing as planes, ships battle with the elements. >> they were again hampered by bad weather. thick fog early today. >> 200 miles an hour. the world is whistling past you and you're looking for an object amongst the white caps of the waves. >> time is running out. we enter week three for the search for the missing malaysian airlines flight. crews are poring over new information. recently released radar echos from a french satellite identified what could possibly be debris from the missing plane.

it was about 575 miles north of the objects that were seen earlier this week by chinese and australian satellites. part of the search on sunday focused on a wooden palette surrounded by straps of various lengths and colors seen by spotters in a search plane this weekend. as one australian official cautioned, pallets are also used in the shipping industry. when crews head back out in a couple hours, they'll be joined by these two military planes from china and japan. for the latest, we turn to nbc's tom costello. >> good afternoon. a couple pieces of information we're watching closely from the malaysian authorities today. number one, authorities said something that contradicted information that u.s. authorities have provided to us last week. u.s. authorities last week said they had information that suggested that the plane when it came up here and was headed

towards vietnam, that it sent an acars data burst, a burst of transmitted information about the plane, which in that burst said the plane had already had a preprogrammed flight path to do a u-turn and come back. that's what u.s. authorities said last week. a preprogrammed u-turn. today malaysian authorities said they've looked at the acars data and that's not true. they contradicted what u.s. authorities said in terms of whether this u-turn coming back over the strait of malacca and malaysia, whether that was, in fact, preprogrammed. the malaysian authorities say there's no evidence to suggest that whatsoever. so this is the search zone. we've talked about that a lot. and specifically, they've now narrowed this down to about 20,000 square miles based on the satellite photographs from the chinese and the satellite photograph from the australians showing debris that should be, they think, relatively large. here's what we're talking about. this is specifically -- i need to do this, then this.

this is the debris they're talking about from the chinese. this piece is 73 feet long. the piece from the australians that they had spotted was, we believe, somewhere in the neighborhood of 79 feet long. so when you look at a 777, the question becomes, what piece of debris from a 777 could be that big? let's go over here and take a quick look at the 777. pardon my back, but this is the malaysia airlines plane. when you look at this plane, you turn it up like this. now let's look at the wingspan. the wingspan on a 777 is 200 feet. the length of it from top to bottom is about 205 feet. so it's possible, according to the experts, that we're talking about a chunk of the plane that could be in here somewhere. the trouble with that theory is that this plane, as you will see, these pieces you would expect to probably sink if it

was in the water. why? because it turns out that the plane wings, of course, have a lot of fuel on board. if it exhausted its fuel, then these cavities in here would be empty, and you've got to believe the plane might break up as it hit the water and these cavities would fill with water and the wings would potentially sink. and the fuselage is essentially one long tube, so you would expect that would probably sink. so that's what's really got the experts questioning what these big pieces might be. they may very well be pieces from the plane, but we just don't know that. so now we go back to the search zone and where they're focusing right now, and it is a very large zone indeed down here southwest of australia. they continue to search that today. six planes as well as ships. so far, they have not found the debris spotted in those satellite photos. karen, back to you. >> all right. thanks, tom, for that update. now let's bring in former american airlines pilot and naval aviator jay rollins as

well as jacqueline dixon, the dean of the college of marine science at south florida. thanks for joining me. so jay, i want to start with you and follow up on something that tom was just talking about. this issue of whether or not the turn was preprogrammed suggesting that at one point the united states said it had been prepammed. now the malaysians are saying, no, it wasn't. does that have any significance in terms of trying to figure out what was going on with the plane? >> i would say yes. if it had been preprogrammed, that suggested there was some sinister motive, that possibly the pilots knew what they were up to and they were setting up to do it. but if it did not happen that way -- and frankly, with the debris appearing where it is, it's starting to suggest that perhaps they were just doing their job. they were trying to get aircraft back to land safely. as they turned to the south, the -- something happened to the

crew and the airplane continued to fly southbound as a zombie flight. >> all right. now, jackie, the telegraph is now reporting that german and american oceanographers are planning to deploy the unmanned submarine named the abyss. what can you tell us about its capabilities? >> the abyss is one of the modern autonomous underwater vehicles, or auvs. this instrument is capable of staying under water for about 20 ho -- 22 hours. it's equipped with photographic capabilities. this is a good tool for starting some broad based mapping of the sea floor to look for debris. >> you know, jackie, we have sort of three pieces of satellite information. i'm just wondering, you know, as we look at these images, is there anything to suggest based on -- we know that today was -- yesterday, i should say, they had some tough weather

conditions. is there anything with regard to currents or with regard to the weather that can tell us are we potentially looking at the same piece of debris that may have moved in the region, or are we potentially looking at different pieces of debris? >> well, unfortunately in this part of the world, the satellites are just taking images when they can as a function of their orbits. so it's not like we have a realtime, 24/7 coverage of the area. the australian air force has dropped buoys that they're using to track the currents to get, you know, specific currents for this time of year. that will help them when they have detailed information to do the calculations and backtrack where pieces of debris should have been in between the different satellite images. >> jay, give us a sense of the challenge these pilots are facing. we're talking about flying at about 300 feet. that's got to be tough, particularly if you're talking

about rough weather conditions. tell us a little bit about that. >> well, the navy uses certain aircraft like the p-3 and this p-8 in order to do submarine hunting for the most part. and they are trained to fly at low altitudes because they get close to the water and listen for signs of submarines. now, in this instance, they're being used to try to track either finding the debris field and seeing what it is or even possibly to try and locate these pingers from the black boxes. so the actual flying at 300 feet probably is a little bit lower than they normally do, but i'm sure they're trained to do that. and what makes it more difficult, however, is that there's no doubt a cloud cover is the reason they had to get that low. and with that cloud cover and heavy seas comes a lot of wind

and a lot of buffeting. i'm sure that the pilots have their hands full. >> so jackie, when they are putting these buoys out in the ocean and trying to identify currents, how -- are they able to use that along with satellite data to then also try to hone in on which areas they should be focusing on in the search? i ask that question because obviously we've had some conversation about the fact that initially we believed they were looking in the wrong place as they were looking off the coast of vietnam. now we've identified this whole other region, but it's so huge and massive. how can they use various pieces of technology to kind of hone that down and figure out where's the best place to focus? >> yes, well, the area that the debris has been found is, as many people have been saying is, extremely remote. at 45 degrees south, they're getting into what's called the antarctic circumpolar vent, which is one of the strongest currents on the planet. but they have general ideas of how fast this current flows.

and with the buoy data, they'll be able to get more specific data and then you can backtrack in time, given how the pieces of debris -- you know, if it's one piece of debris that's moved or multiple pieces of debris and just backtrack to try to narrow down where the plane actually went down. >> and you know, jackie, so much of this we have focused on debris at the top. i'm curious to get your thoughts about what we would be confronting underneath in the ocean, in the water. what is that terrain like in that part of the world? >> the debris is located over a sea floor feature called the southeast indian ridge. it's part of thecanic mountains. this is located where the indian plate is pulling away from the antarctic plate. it's volcanic terrain. there are rifts and canyons and volcanic mountains. that might make the search for

any debris on the sea floor and the acoustic finding of the pinger signal more difficult. >> yeah, i mean, jay, final question to you. that's what it sounds like to me. i mean, part of the big -- you know, in addition to debris, we're looking for this black box and the ping. there's a little bit of a race against time. but if you're talking about that kind of terrain, i would think that makes it all the more complicated to try and locate. >> you're absolutely right, karen. because some of the heaviest parts of the aircraft could have sunk and possibly into one of these canyons that has just been described. if that's the case, i'm also told that there's a muck at the very bottom of the sea. it's created by the dead organisms that have fallen down. all of that could be -- whatever is left of the aircraft could be sinking into that, including the recorders. so, yes, it is a big problem. >> all right. well, thank you, jay and

jacqueline. >> thank you. >> my pleasure. more on the developments on missing malaysian airlines flight 370 later in this hour. next, your sunday forecast. we're going to preview the president's trip to europe as he tries to rally allies in support of additional sanctions after russia's latest aggression in ukraine. and later, if corporations are people, does that mean that your boss can be the boss of your body? stay with us. (vo) you are a business pro. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. and only national is ranked highest in car rental customer satisfaction by j.d. power. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro. ameriprise asked people a simple question:

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time now for your weekly forecast. world leaders are going to gather to confront the crisis in ukraine and here at home we hope congress will get back to washington and get back to business. just a few hours from now, president obama will take off in air force one on a week-long trip through europe and the middle east. the president's meetings with

leaders from around the globe were originally planned to address trade talks and puck leer security, but the crisis in ukraine is now at the top of the agenda. all eyes are on ukraine's southeastern border where large numbers of russian troops are amassing for what the kremlin says are training exercises. according to nato's top general, forces there could be poised to push into yet another eastern european country, this time a russian-speaking part of moldova. as fears of invasion continue to rise, people in ukraine are preparing for the worst. here's the acting minister of foreign affairs on abc this morning. >> ukrainian government is trying to use all their peaceful means and diplomatic means to stop russians. but people are also ready to defend their homeland. >> one week ago you told us on this broadcast that you thought the chances of going to war were quite high. what are the chances this morning? >> they are growing.

>> meanwhile here at home, we're marking the fourth anniversary of the affordable care act and the 54th vote against it in the house of representatives. can the gop come up with a vision for the country beyond repealing obamacare? or is paul ryan's forthcoming budget already dead on arrival? well, joining me now, steve clemens, editor at large for "the atlantic" and nia malika henderson, national political recorder for "the washington post." i'm going to start with you, steve. so the president's trip. he's now going to a g-7, no longer the g-8, meeting to talk about russia. what kind of sanctions do we think they're likely to be considering at this point? >> well, i think they're going to think about broadening them, but clearly what they've done thus far has had absolutely no effect on vladimir putin's decision making. and i think that really, it's going to be beyond sanctions that the discussion really begins to take shape because as you just mentioned, this narrow

strip along moldova is a russian-speaking strip in moldova. it's an autonomous region that essentially has always wanted to be affiliated back with russia, didn't want to leave the soviet union previously. what you see putin doing is grabbing these pieces where there's strong kind of russian ethnic nationalism and grabbing them. the question is, what will stop that? to what degree does that need to be a combination of tougher measures in addition to whatever economic measures they might want to take? so it's a very nasty picture right now. >> and, you know, as a follow up to that, i guess the question i also have, we have both worked on these kinds of things. the president needs to be able to go in there and get some kind of deal or be able to deliver something. what would be a good outcome for president obama coming out of this meeting? >> well, i think that basically getting all the world leaders to

realize that right now you can't approach nations like ukraine or moldova or these areas that haven't become part of nato and just lose a lot of words to talk about democracy and civil society and the health and importance of that. if they really want to put their chips in, they need to gather their resources, invest heavily in these countries and put their economic stakes into these countries as opposed to military ones. that's not a function of sanctions. that's showing you're going to really invest deeply in the success of ukraine. we're not doing that. so a success would be an agraemt of other g-7 leaders that they're not going to try and do this on the cheap, which they largely have been thus far. >> you know, nia-malika, you hear back at home the u.s. congress can't agree on an aid package. this morning on the sunday shows, we had some sort of calling for, you know, we should be giving arms to ukraine. how can we do that if they can't agree on an aid package, number one? number two, doesn't that weaken the president's hand going into these talks?

>> in some ways, yes. that's why you heard him last week essentially say words of support aren't enough, congress. what's necessary is some aid. but again, you have the house and senate at lagger heads in terms of what they want to do. this morning, you had democrat dirk durbin and kelly ayotte saying we should be sending small arms to the ukraine. that's a step past where i think most senators are, most republicans are in the house as well. so it's unclear as to what's going to happen, whether or not they're going to strip out these imf provision that's in the senate bill and agree with what the house wants to do, which is essentially an aid package of $1 billion. again, this was something that was considered before we've heard what's happened lately on the ground there and this idea that this is a real slippery slope in terms of what russia's intentions are. >> obviously the trip is now very much overshadowed by events in ukraine and russia.

but i think one of the highlights of the trip or one of the -- i think most anticipated moments -- >> the pope. >> the president's meeting with the pope. >> yes, this is going to be great. i'm hoping they're going to get some selfies out of it. so we'll see. >> that's a good challenge to issue. we want to see a selfie, man. >> that's right. the pope and president obama very much aligned in talking about the poor, talking about this gap between the rich and the poor and this growing inequality. the pope has been very, very much forthright in talking about wanting to close that and examine it. he's emerged very much as the people's pope. this will be interesting to see what comes out of this meeting. >> steve, what's also interesting is while the president is, you know, dealing with foreign affairs, meeting with the pope, talking about the poor, paul ryan says he's going to put forward yet another budget. and i would not be probably too far off to suggest that it will see lots of cuts for lots of the

programs that would help the poor. yet, they're having some difficulties. on the one hand, they're saying, yes, we're going to put toward a budget. although, ap reports this morning among others that they're having some difficulty deciding just what cuts to put into the budget. so there's a question as to whether or not they'll even get it up for a vote. >> well, paul ryan's budget is going to be in sort of a vice, both with a lot of democratic opposition because of the medicare and medicaid cuts that he'll no doubt put in, but also because of the budgetary numbers he wants to use are about $18 billion higher than in 2011 cap on spending. also facing a lot of tax revenue shortfall that cbo has come out with. so paul ryan oddly is out of step with a lot of most ferocious deficit hawks in his caucus. he may be stuck in that weird in between place and may be doing this as a place holder. i don't think that budget will see the light of day in terms of

passage. >> yeah, and nia-malika, to you, what that suggests is the republicans going into 2014 soun sounding like pretty much all they've got is opposition to obamacare and no fresh ideas. >> that's right. you've seen from some of them they want to come out with this idea about health care so it's not just about opposition. it'll be interesting to see if this budget -- i mean, paul ryan, there's discussion about whether or not they want to put forward a budget. so we'll have to see. i think again it's all about 2014, all about these midterms. a lot of delicate dances about what they actually want to do. >> it is a big week coming up, both at home an abroad. thank you. >> thanks, karen. >> thank you. later this hour, can women stand their ground as effectively as men? a new report suggests actually not. but up next, the latest developments on that new french satellite data in the search area of flight 370. that's ahead. the passat tdi clean diesel gets up to 795 highway miles per tank.

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as dawn is about to break, crews from 26 countries, including the united states, are preparing to restart the search for the missing malaysian airliner off the coast of australia. we're joined for the latest from perth and nbc's ian williams. >> reporter: hi, karen. monday's search will begin in a couple hours from now, day five of what has been a frustrating mission. there have been eight aircraft out there saturday. today, monday, they'll be bolstered by japanese and chinese aircraft as well as more ships beginning to arrive in that area. they'll be searching once again in that southern corridor, an area about 28,000 square meters, about 105,000 miles from perth. once again, the weather is likely to be a factor out there. on sunday, the mission was impaired by thick cloud and fog early in the day, although it did begin to clear later. there have been warnings of a

tropical cyclone, which is lingering just to the north of the search area. now, the prime minister of australia has been sounding encouraging. he has said there is increasing hope because of the satellite images that appear to show debris out there in the area that's being searched. now, those going out today will have a third set of photographs. this time from france. a french satellite apparently spotting debris broadly in the same area as that spotted by china and australia. now, that image has not yet been released. so far, though, they haven't turned up anything. the deputy prime minister here did himself have a word of warning when he said that there is, of course, plenty of trash out there in the area they're searching, karen. >> thanks, ian. no doubt another tough day for those families. thanks so much. up next, as florida mom

marissa alexander prepares to stand trial for a second time, we'll take a look at how often stand your ground defenses work for female defendants and what role does race play in that equation. that's coming up. predicting the future is a pretty difficult thing to do. but, manufacturing in the united states means advanced technology. we learned that technology allows us to be craft oriented. no one's losing their job. there's no beer robot that has suddenly chased them out. the technology is actually creating new jobs. siemens designed and built the right tools and resources to get the job done.

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the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> well, what if that guy is actually a woman? and what if that woman is trying to defend herself against a violent partner? as the bureau of justice statistics notes, quote, females made up 70% of victims killed by an intimate partner in 2007, a proportion that has changed very little since 1993. so how likely is it that a woman will be found justified if she

invokes stand your ground, and what role does race play? the jacksonville florida mother marissa alexander faces up to 50 years in prison for firing a warning shot into the wall during a violent incident with her husband. no one was injured. as think progress note, alexander's husband had already been arrested two times before on misdemeanor battery charges against other women. alexander was initially convicted for aggravated assault, which carries a 20-year sentence. the conviction was later overturned and alexander was granted a retrial. but florida state prosecutor angela cory is continuing to pursue what many feel are excessive charges for a nonviolent offense. cory is now seeking to triple alexander's sentence from 20 years to 60. 60 years for firing a shot into the wall in defense against her abusive husband. it's a scenario that we know ends far too many times with the woman as the dead victim. and yet, as my colleague reported this week, the reason cory has given for the

additional time is she believes alexander was angry, not fearful, which he fired that shot. well, joining me now to discuss the case, msnbc.com erin carmone and sirius-xm host joe madison. thanks for joining me. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> i want to talk about the specifics of marissa alexander's case in a moment. i want to put this in a broader context. you talk about in your piece in general how much harder it is for women to convince a jury that she was justified when she invoked stand your ground. talk about that. >> well, in any kind of self-defense scenario, you have to say you have a reasonable belief you were under threat. in a domestic violence situation, the threat is ongoing. it's every day. many women feel like they cannot leave abusive relationships. so occasionally that means

that -- often, excuse me, that means a jury, judge, or prosecutor will not find her to be credible. why didn't you leave before? we have a tendency to overestimate the resources that people have when they leave abusive relationships and also the safety that even if they do leave, they will somehow still be safe from their abuser. >> aren't there also challenges with stand jr. ground? initially came from the castle doctrine, which was much of a patriarchal man defending his home. if you're a woman standing your ground in your own home, you don't have any place to retreat. you've already retreated to your home. doesn't that add to the challenge? >> right. the irony is when people talk about the castle doctrine, it's like you're defending your home and all the aggressors are outside. sometimes the aggressors are coming from inside the house. sometimes you're not safe in your own home. that complicates things. there's a slightly higher burden if you don't have a protection order against the person living in the house with you. then you have to prove even more reasonable suspicion or reasonable fear that you were under attack. >> so joe, for this piece, we

worked with the urban institute to compile data. it showed the racial disparities among women when it comes to justifiable homicide. we have a graphic up here. when you have a white shooter and a black victim, 13.5% of the time the killer is found justified. i want to focus in on when you have an african-american shooting an african-american, 5.7% of the time would that woman be found justified. that goes down if it's a black woman and a white victim and even lower if it's a white victim and a white shooter. i think the point is clear here that women of color tend to disproportionately have trauma utilizing justifiable homicide. >> yes, and it shows that the issue transcends gender because those are almost parallel, not necessarily exact numbers, with

african-american men. so the issue is whether you're a black man or a black woman if there's a certain stereotype, a certain attitude towards african-americans in this country who commit crimes versus whites who commit crimes. we hear it in our language. for example, whenever there's a shooting, a black man against a black man or black woman against a black woman, it's always black on black crime. but you never hear anyone say white on white crime. the reality is crime is crime no matter what the color. and something else i want to add is that there's this attitude, disposition that women are supposed to have. they're supposed to be more timid when it comes to defending themselves. and men, of course, are supposed to be aggressive when defending themselves. >> and, you know, joe, to that

point, i guess part of what really angered me about angela corey -- there's a lot i don't like about the way she's pursued many of these cases. but for her to suggest that it's inappropriate for marissa alexander to be angry and not scared. you could be both. it seemed like a very appropriate response to be both angry and fearful and genuinely be trying to stand your ground and protect your children. it made me think. so the stereotype of the angry black woman and therefore it was not okay for her to be angry in that instance. >> and that's what i mean by this tim rous disposition. you have to be timid. if not, then you're out of control. that type of thing. but again, let's go back to the very basic problem with this. it's a bad law in florida. it's a bad law wherever that law exists, no matter whether it is

directed at blacks, whites. it's just a bad law. >> yeah, it is. speaking of corey, her critics have said she's obsessed with overcharging. i think that's fair. she has sent more people to death row than any other prosecutor in florida. i think we have a graphic that shows she has put more people on death row than other florida state attorneys, 66% of death row inmates in corey's district are black while they make up just 16% of the state population. what is going on with angela corey? >> it's interesting. those urban institute numbers we came up with that show you're three times more likely to be found justified if you're a woman who killed a black man, a white woman who killed a black man. i think it goes to the same point, which is to say that systemically in individual attitudes, in general, americans have much more facility in imagining the criminality and innocence of a black man. so unfortunately you have this intersection of race and gender there, but the one thing you

have in common is that the result is likely to go against a black man. >> right. >> and you know, he just also sent out -- you may find this on the internet. she just sent out images. it was interesting. a list of things she said was misrepresentation of what really happened. then she sent photographs showing marissa looking, you know, dishevelled. >> it was like a wanted poster. >> exactly. >> i'm sure she wasn't trying to sway any juries or anything with that. you know, i wanted to bring this issue up because as you know, last weekend i decided, hey, let's start this conversation talking about women and talking about issues and how they disproportionately affect women of color. joe, i completely agree with you that stand your ground is a terrible law. but i do think it's important that we also acknowledge -- and i thought irin's piece was important to show the

disproportionate impact it's having on women and particularly women of color and that's something we need to pay attention to and focus on. >> absolutely. >> i want to thank you both for joining me. be sure to catch the joe madison show on sirius xm show every weekday morning at 6:00 a.m. eastern. still ahead, the supreme court again takes up the question, are corporations people? and if so, what rights does that give your boss over your life? stay with us. we asked people a question, how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more. so maybe we need to approach things differently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪

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corporations are people, my

friend. we can raise taxes -- of course they are. everything corporations earn ultimately goes to people. >> uh-huh. remember that choice moment from former republican presidential candidate mitt romney? we laughed at the time, but it turns out mitt romney might be correct. already the supreme court essentially has said that for-profit corporations are allowed the same free speech rights as individual people in its 2010 decision on citizens unit united. but how far do those rights go? efforts to undermine the law are in full swing as the supreme court again takes up the question about whether a secular for-profit corporation has the same religious freedom rights as individuals. if they can therefore impose those believes on their employees. on tuesday, the court will hear oral arguments in a case involving two corporations, including hobby lobby. it's owned by the green family. they filed a lawsuit in 2012

seeking an exemption from the mandate in the affordable care act that requires employer health plans to cover all methods of birth control, including contraceptive, without a copayment. they said that was based on religious grounds. now, according to hobby lobby ceo and founder david green, he says, quote, by being required to make a choice between sacrificing our faith or paying millions of dollars in fines, we essentially must choose which poison pill to swallow. we simply cannot abandon our religious believes to comply with this mandate. according to the company's mission statement, they're quote, honoring the lord in all we do by operating the company in a manner consistent with biblical principles. if the supreme court rules hobby lobby can impose those believes on its employees, how much farther would a company be allowed to go? as our new poll shows, a majority of americans don't believe a company should be exempt from the mandate based on religion. on tuesday we'll get a first glimpse of what the justices of

the supreme court have to say about that. joining me now is co-founder of ultraviolet, shaw that thomas, and akhil amar. thanks for joining me. i want to start with you, akhil. give us a sense of the arguments we're going to hear on tuesday. >> well, the key point is that this isn't really strictly speaking a constitutional case. it arises under a federal statute called the religious freedom restoration act. that congressional statute was passed in 1993 with overwhelming support among republicans and democrats, something you don't see often. the statute basically says that if some federal program is imposing a substantial burden on religious practice and their ways of accomplishing the basic purposes of the federal statute without imposing that burden, try to do it that way. so this -- and a lot of focus

has been directed on the fact that this company is a corporation, but even if it weren't a corporation, it would still be a for-profit employer. so even if they didn't use the corporate form, the question still arises, should their religious sensibilities urn the statute trump the health care needs of the employees who are not necessarily members of the same religion and these employers whether they use corporate form or not are entering into a general plar marketplace. the question is why they shouldn't have to follow the same rules everyone else does in the marketplace and why that isn't really the issue. >> you know, the thing about this though is it feels like obviously we know that this -- there's a slippery slope in this case, which we'll talk about in a moment in terms of once you start down this path. but it feels like once again women's rights and women's health is being used as kind of

the wedge, as an appropriate wedge, i would say, i think they believe, to try to bring this case. so again, it's women who stand to be harmed if this decision goes through. >> yeah, it's pretty scary. what we're talking about in terms of impact is if the supreme court agrees with the case that hobby lobby has brought, is that millions of women may lose access to birth control that they need. you know, you started off this segment by saying that the majority of americans disagree that we should be putting our bosses in the middle of our health care decisions. that's certainly the way our members feel. over 140,000 people have participated in this campaign, whether it's signing a petition, calling hobby lobby, sharing their stories about the impact this would have on their lives. and it's so far outside of the mainstream, really, in terms of what people think is an appropriate use of power. in this case, leveraging this

kind of religious exception argument for explicit discrimination on the basis of gender. >> akhil, it strikes me -- gut mocker institute said something i found very interesting. it does feel like what we're talking about here is having your boss really in the doctor's office with you. the gut mocker institute said, quote, it's frankly a rather radical idea, the idea that someone can say that if your visit to your doctor is going to receive payment from your insurance company, then your doctor can't talk to you about certain subjects. i mean, it just seems to me that it's completely illegal and inappropriate for any boss to be able to then say, you can see this doctor, but this doctor can't talk to you about certain things. that just doesn't feel appropriate to me. >> yes, this is a case not just about access to contraceptive services but also advice, medical advice. and even if the hobby lobby plaintiffs were to win at the supreme court, that would only mean that they get to make their

arguments that their religion is affected. at the end of the day, the statute does not say that religion always trumps. and here -- so the question is, because they've used a corporation, they can't even bring the case at all or because they're for-profit they can't bring the case at all. even if they bring the case, at the end of the day, there really are good reasons why they should have to, as for-profit employers, should have to play by the same grounds rules everyone else does. that's because we're talking about women's access to health care and to medical advice. >> but i also think we're talking about a slippery slope here. as we saw recently with the vote against the arizona sb-1062 as the governor there vetoed that legislation, there was a lot of heat from a lot of corporations which said essentially, we don't think that it's okay to discriminate, use religion as a basis for discrimination. in that instance, it was a

statute that would have said they could deny services to same-sex couples. but this question of corporations being people, again, i feel like part of what is so critical about this cases is we're really talking about a slippery slope. today we're talking about, you know, women's access to health services. in that instance we were talking about, you know, lgbt people. what's it going to be next? >> absolutely. i mean, that is, i think, the scariest part about this case. nobody is debating whether or not religious liberty is something that we embrace as a country. it's as fundamental as apple pie as far as most people are concerned. but what that means, what i've heard a lot of people saying when needs to be said more is there is freedom of religious and there's freedom from religion, freedom from the kinds of actions that hobby lobby is taking to use religion as a basis for discriminating against anyone. in this case, it's women. but it could be anybody. >> yeah, i think that's right.

i would also just close by saying what is clear is this is about undermining the affordable care act and using women to do it. thank you to you both. all right. that does it for me. thanks so much for joining us. stay tuned to msnbc throughout night for any developments on malaysia flight 370. i'll see you back here next weekend at 4:00 p.m. eastern. have great week. i better take s. [ male announcer ] dayquil cold and flu doesn't treat all that. it doesn't? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast-acting antihistamine. oh, what a relief it is! add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get $100 off for every year of safe driving. we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side

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