this morning my question, did you miss me, nerdland? plus, the pope, the president and the politics of the poor. and, how college football just might save the american labor movement. but, first, the president and the first lady take the globe by storm. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. this week the white house was utterly focused on president obama's signature piece of domestic legislation, the affordable care act. as we enter the final days of americans to secure insurance through online coverage, this campaign to ensure lack of -- the wholly sea and saudi arabia.

on thursday he sat and spoke with pope francis at the vatican and today he leaves saudi arabia where he met with king abdullah on friday. the white house noted the purpose of the president's travels with this specific, pointed and inspiring language. to mobilize the international community and some of our most important partners in the world, at a time when the united states is dealing with a number of important challenges. yes, the president went abroad to get people to help us do stuff that is important and challenging. it's a far cry from the international enthusiasm that marked senator obama's 2008 european tour when he was still an aspiring presidential candidate. at that time candidate obama seeing the very embodiment of possibility for america to regain the role of symbolic leader carrying the shining deals of democratic self-governance and rule of law

that has dimmed our nation since the invasion in iraq since 2003. so palpable was the hope of the obama presidency to create a new american legacy that he was awarded the nobel prize for peace 11 months into his presidency. those early travels and accolades were all about big ideas, broad themes and agenda setting, but this week the president sometimes revisited those themes but you did not have to be paying even very close attention to realize that this trip was not about theory, it was about very real events. this time the speeches had an overriding theme, russia, its reported 40 to 50,000 troops on the border of ukraine, and what the world must do to ensure those troops don't cross that border. >> europe and america are united in our support of the ukrainian government and the ukrainian people. we're united in imposing a cost on russia for its actions so far. the truth of the matter is that

america's got a whole lot of challenges. russia is a regional power that is threatening some of its immediate neighbors, not out of strength but out of weakness. >> if anyone in russian leadership thought the world wouldn't care about their actions in ukraine or that they could drive a wedge between the european union and the united states, they clearly miss calculated. russia's leadership is challenging truths that only a few weeks ago seemed self-evident, that in the 21st century the borders of europe cannot be redrawn with force, that international law matters, that people and nations can make their own decisions about their future. >> there is some evidence this morning that the president's efforts this week just may have had an effect. on friday vladimir putin called

president obama and the two spent nearly an hour on the phone discussing ukraine and de-escalation. the two agreed to have their top diplomats further about ways to diffuse the crisis. this moment is a significant test for president obama. back home political allies and opponents wait to greet him on implementation of health care reform and abroad the world waits to answer two questions. has the united states sufficiently rebuilt its moral authority to convene our allies for action against russia's aggression and can the united states enforce its threats and sanctions? answering those questions has global consequences. at the table, charlie senate, vice president and co-founder of global post. he has 25 years of experience. nina burly has written about president obama's former travels. lara setrakian.

gordon who blogs at world affairs journal. so nice to have you all at the table. charlie, i'm going to start with you. how important was that phone call in providing us some evidence that we might actually be moving towards de-escalation? >> i think the phone call is very important. this was quite a serious event that was unfolding and i think it was a lot of theater, a lot of bluster, a lot of macho and i think to see it get diffused is very important because there's a lot of peace making to do. there's a lot of diplomacy underway. they want to get successes in syria, they want successes in iran and they want to restart israel/palestine. they can't do this without russia. seeing this come together, i hope, will now sort of put in place again the chess pieces the way this white house wanted as they go forward. >> i see you nodding as charlie is talking. do you see ultimately the

possibility that as much as this has been this crisis, this impending, looming crisis, and in certain ways a loss in the context of crimea, that this might actually provide an opportunity for the obama doctrine to evidence itself as a success? >> a small but hopeful opportunity for the obama administration. that phone call was the first sign of an off ramp to de-escalate this crisis in crimea. all of those other issues, syria, beyond, all hang on a destructive u.s. relationship. we have seen no sign for that for leaks leading towards impending catastrophe. it's a very narrow window to convince putin to change anything about how he's approaching anything, but certainly crimea. this doesn't change the strategic balance of anything that's happening now, but there's at least a glimmer of hope that they can restore dialogue. >> this point that you've made is critical, lara. the issue isn't about ukraine

itself. i mean, certainly for the ukrainian people it is, but in terms of american diplomatic interest, it is not about this piece of land per se, it may not be about the economic questions that we'll talk about in bit, but in part that all of the rest of the balance is based on this relationship. gordon, i want to play something for you. this is the president speaking on cbs in an interview. he's suggesting there might be a misreading problem going on. let's listen. >> what i have repeatedly said is that he may be entirely misreading the west. he's certainly misreading american foreign policy. we have no interest in encircling russia. we have no interest in ukraine beyond letting the ukrainian people make their own decisions about their own lives. >> gordon, he's saying, we don't want ukraine, we just support democracy and self-governance. >> i think the real problem is that the president's policies assume that the world is the way it was at the end of the cold

war. that the major powers had a common interest in peace and security. you know, what we have seen over the last couple of years is that they don't. both china and russia have been grabbing territory from neighbors and certainly destabilizing their respective regions. perhaps those assumptions that have guided us for two decades are no longer true. if that's the case, then that means our policies are going to have to change. as much as we don't want them to, i think that is very much well in the cards. china and russia are not the way that we want them to be. >> even as the president is making this claim that potentially putin is misreading the west, you're suggesting there may be a misreading of what constitutes the global interests of the nation state players? you wrote recently and we'll talk more about this as we push on about the president's decision making relative to syria. >> >> is this emblematic of what gordon is talking about here, that the sets of interest we think we have might be in fact quite different than the interests as they are understood by the players themselves within

these nations and states? >> my reporting on that story had to do with the fact that what we talk about here, what we're having these discussions on the air, the president is making speeches, there is a lot going on in the background. there is a lot going on that we don't know about and so there are discussions going on between people, the state department and with the russian counterparts all the time. what you see in the news and what we're talking about isn't really the full story, right? >> uh-huh. >> so i think the interests that we've been discussing here are constantly being discussed in the background and that's the story. that's the story behind the story needs to be brought up. it's in their interests to keep it quiet sometimes. so this phone call last night -- >> right. >> -- there may have been many things that led up to it that you and i and the washington post don't actually know about. you only find out about it six months later in my reporting on

the syria situation in august. i want to ask in part about as we talk about issues of diplomacy, as we think about the obama doctrine, how much is the capacity to perform, to perform one thing. it's that other sorts of diplomatic efforts can be happening behind. when we come back, president obama on the question of the use of force. >> there's no expectation that they will be dislodged by force and so what we can bring to bear are the legal arguments, the diplomatic arguments, the political pressure, the economic sanctions already in place to try to make sure that there is a cost to that process. ow we're b. we close on the house tomorrow. i want one of these opened up. because tomorow we go live... it's a day full of promise. and often, that day arrives by train. big day today?

even bigger one tomorrow. when csx trains move forward, so does the rest of the economy. csx. how tomorrow moves. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good. whole grains... if ...hey breathing's hard... know the feeling? copd includes emphysema and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways for a full 24 hours. spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace fast-acting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops.

stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. does breathing with copd weigh you down? don't wait to ask your doctor about spiriva.

>> yet this truth must co-exist with another, that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy. back in december of 2009 giving his acceptance speech for the nobel prize in pieeace. as my guest nina burleigh noted, obama versus the hawks, the piece takes a look at the reaction to the president's actions though he may have been called weak on foreign policy when it comes to russia and syria, he may, in fact, have used diplomatic means backing the force to bring russia to the table and prevent u.s. troop involvement in syria.

nina, you go back and basically revive this notion of a muscular president, of a strong president rather than a weak one. by changing our definition of what constitutes weak and strong. >> that's right. i mean, in washington, especially among the neocons and the mccains, if you haven't lobbed a few tomahawks, you're not presidential. when obama pulled back on syria in august, he was criticized, as you know, you know, he threw it to congress and, boy, he took down american standing, he took down american credibility and we heard this over and over again. and yet here we are six months later, the red line was crossed. that's why they were -- that's why the war drums were beating. the red line was crossed. 50% of the syrian chemical weapons are offloaded. they're almost on schedule. they're going to be out of there by june. that is a success story, right? there was not one single missile

fired and what you get is the stories about, well, it's -- putin handed that to him. that was an accidental victory, right? and my reporting, you know, six months later people are now willing to talk about it. they had been talking about this for months. >> yeah. >> they had to dig deeply with the russians for a year before that behind the scenes. so it's all about the theater. it's all about moving the missiles into place and then he didn't. he pulled back. >> let me underscore exactly the point that you're making about how it was initially received and how as you called them the hawks continued. let's listen to senator mccain talking about the president earlier this month at aipac. >> there is a broader amount of options. why do we care? this is a feckless foreign policy where no one believes about america's strength. >> charlie, a feckless foreign

policy with no strength? >> nina is on the point. the hawks call him a weak president. they love to overlook the fact that he is the one that brought bin laden to permanent justice. they want to overlook a lot of the strength he's made. i've got to say, this week i think the theater caught up with the president. if you go back to look at this amazing speech and -- when he received the nobel prize. the more important speech i think was in cairo in june 2009. in cairo he said to the whole muslim world, we reach out to you with open hands. he said democracy is a universal value and we will back you on that. that defied american foreign policy, particularly in the middle east. we were about supporting stability over democracy. >> stability that was brought at the price of the repression of the people. >> exactly. egypt being case in point. the people of egypt heard president obama, i would argue. it certainly contributed to the movement which became known as the arab string. i was in tahrir square.

i heard those young people and what they wanted, and what they want is democracy. now when the united states allows that democracy to be derailed, look, morsi, the muslim brotherhood candidate who became president, failed governance, he was not a good leader, but he was elected by the people. when you allowed the military hunta to come in and overthrow morsi, you have now undercut your entire argument that you believe democracy is a universal right. >> this sets up two different possibilities what would constitute the definition of a successful foreign policy. this may depend on whether you are a syrian person still dealing with the brutality of that crisis, right? and, similarly, whether or not, you know, sort of this discourse actually leads to an arab spring that changes how people are governed. >> absolutely. it calls into question what you

can call a win essentially. 50% of the chemical weapons are out but they've missed a sequence of deadlines. this is not where we wanted to be with chemical weapons at this point in time. on top of it, president obama is called feckless at home but he's called much worse overseas. people saw that play as indecisi indecisive, as a sign that president obama said assad must go. why is he still there? so what do america's words mean anymore? so much is made out of sort of looking at specific plays in the game and specific moments of foreign policy. if you take a step back holistically, we have lost credibility. >> this is so important. we have to take a break. this is so important. i can remember distinctly what it was like to travel as an american before january of 2009 when president obama was not rated and after it, and there was a sense of, oh, we're going to re-establish kind of that american rhetorical discursive capacity. i am interested to see how the world is thinking about us. when we come back we'll take a

look at the far-reaching impact about the tensions between the u.s. and russia. i'm telling you, it comes all the way to brooklyn. >> history has a funny way of moving in twists and turns and not just in a straight line so, you know, how the situation in crimea evolves in part depends on making sure that the international community stays unified. miles per tank. salesperson #2: actually, we're throwing in a $1,000 fuel reward card. we've never done that. that's why there's never been a better time to buy a passat tdi clean diesel. husband: so it's like two deals in one? avo: during the salesperson #2: first ever exactly. volkswagen tdi clean diesel event, get a great deal on a passat tdi, that gets up to 795 highway miles per tank. and get a $1000 dollar fuel reward card. it's like two deals in one. hurry in and get a $1,000 fuel reward card and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models. nascar is ab.out excitement but tracking all the action and hearing everything from our marketing partners, the media and millions

of fans on social media can be a challenge. that's why we partnered with hp to build the new nascar fan and media engagement center. hp's technology helps us turn millions of tweets, posts and stories into real-time business insights that help nascar win with our fans. if yand you're talking toevere rheuyour rheumatologistike me, about a biologic... this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain. this is humira helping me lay the groundwork. this is humira helping to protect my joints from further damage. doctors have been prescribing humira for ten years. humira works by targeting and helping to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. humira is proven to help relieve pain and stop further joint damage in many adults. humira can lower your ability to fight infections,

including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events, such as infections, lymphoma, or other types of cancer, have happened. blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure have occurred. before starting humira, your doctor should test you for tb. ask your doctor if you live in or have been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as fever, fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. take the next step. talk to your doctor. this is humira at work. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good.

whole grains... a 401(k) is the most sound way to go. let's talk asset allocation. sure. you seem knowledgeable, professional. i'm actually a dj. [ dance music plays ] woman: [laughs] no way! that really is you? if they're not a cfp pro, you just don't know. cfp -- work with the highest standard. on monday the owner announced plans to put the nets under the control of one of his russian companies and the nba quickly released a statement saying it had received no application nor is there a process underway through our office to transfer the ownership of the nets to another company. so the next day prokarov tempered talks and released a

statement that said, this is a long process which may or may not come to fruition and may not happen. this brings up an interesting complexity. as russia's eight wealthiest man with a net worth of reportedly somewhere between 10 and $12 billion in assets, this nets owner could in fact be particularly vulnerable if western powers continue their escalation of economic sanctions against russia. the move to transfer the control of the brooklyn nets under one of his russian companies would allow him to heed putin's ban on them having assets. the value to stay loyal to russia is essential as his net worth has dipped a whopping $811 million this year. despite the fact that i was shocked to learn that it was not jay z that owns the nets, you know -- >> have to register as a boston celtics fan. i think we should impose sanctions.

>> on the nets. for me it looks -- for me this was -- you know, in certain ways a silly kind of side story, but it is indicative of how globally interconnected we are. it felt to me, gordon, like going back to your point. this is not the post cold war world, this is a world in which a russian owner holds a team in brooklyn. >> yeah. i mean, this was also true in 1914 where you had a globalized world. everything thought that each other's interests in the other country prevented war and of course what happened? the greatest war up until that time. and so i think, you know, right now certainly if we were to sanction russia more severely it would hurt us, but there's some very important things going on here because the europeans of course are very, very concerned about what's hatcheshed happene. he's grabbed crimea. you have poland. >> you have the gas pipe lines moving through ukraine to western europe. that is where -- that visual helps you to see what the

immediate interests are. >> the one thing the president can do is he can abolish the restriction on the export of lmg. if we were to do that, we could make europe much less dependent on russia. if we were to make europe much less dependent, we could use our economic leverage and push the russians to a better place. >> this question of how a sanction could ultimately harm the economic interests of the sanctioning country is fascinating for me. and i'm just wondering as we look at this global interconnectedness, as we look at the global pipe lines into europe, as we think about the nets, what would an effective sanctions policy effectively harms putin do potentially to us? >> i don't think you can use the word vulnerable when you're talking about a billionaire. let's pull back a little bit, okay? >> i like that. are. >> then to his point, i want to say, you know, bringing poland

in, i mean, and retilent of hitler and world war ii, that's a little bit overreacting here? let's pull back here. he's gone into crimea. yes, there's europe and there's gas but, you know, let's not go all the way to poland. they invaded georgia when bush was in iraq. remember that? >> yes. >> you know, our war in iraq did not prevent him. our muscle in iraq did not prevent putin for doing what he was doing then. now we're talking about credibility because obama didn't drop tomahawks on syria. i don't think so. that's not what's going on. >> the point is not which means you use, war or sanctions, the point is that you've got somebody who's territorially aggressive. grabbed two parts of georgia in 2008 and the bush administration did nothing. >> in iraq, a terrible folly, which is the reason why the united states credibility has been damaged.

>> that's not the point. that's an old issue. >> it's an old issue that exists to today. >> he's now dismembering two countries and he's probably going to start working on a third and fourth. >> stay with us. i promise we have more, but stay with us. stirring things up on a world stage is becoming a bit of a family affair for the owe bomb mass. we want to bring you the latest for the search for flight 370. earlier today they spotted three suspicious objects in the new search area in the indian ocean. they shifted the search area nearly 700 miles to the northeast after new data analysis suggested the plane was flying faster and likely ran out of fuel sooner than previously thought. multiple objects have been spotted in the new search area including debris reported but new zealand aircraft. what could be a substantial development, they saw debris in the water. it is important to note at this time that material is not linked to the flight that vanished

three weeks ago with 239 people on board. please stay with msnbc throughout the day for the latest on this story. we're going to be right back. always leaves a trail of crumbs behind. you're going to have a problem with getting a wife. uh, yeah, i guess. [ laughs ] this is ridiculous. christopher glenn! [ doorbell rings ] what is that? swiffer sweep & trap. i think i can use this. it picks up everything. i like this. that's a lot of dirt. it's that easy! good job chris! i think a woman will probably come your way. [ both laugh ] we still run into problems. that's why liberty mutual insurance offers accident forgiveness if you qualify, and new car replacement, standard with our auto policies. so call liberty mutual at... today. and if you switch, you could save up to $423. liberty mutual insurance.

responsibility. what's your policy?

how was prugh.ce? that bad? i dropped 2 balls, mom. eye on the ball! that's all it is. eye on the ball. that's a good tip. i'll try it. by the way, bill... this is delicious! so many grilled tastes and textures. and all the nutrition i need. go on. no really. top notch. (laughing) there it is - there ya go. new american grill from kibbles 'n bits...

go together like... food 'n family. when it comes to expressing yourself freely and worshiping as you choose and having open access to information, we believe those universal rights, they are universal rights that are the birth right of every person on this planet. >> the president wasn't the only obama making news on the world stage this week. during her week long trip to china which focused on the power and importance of education, first lady michelle obama made headlines for the remarks you just heard in which she maintained that freedom of speech is a universal right. it is a significant statement in china where a recent judicial ruling allowed for jail sentences of up to three years for posting internet rumors. hear that twitter troll, the first lady invoked the u.s.

civil rights movement when she said many decades ago there were actually laws in america that allowed discrimination against black people like me that are a minority in the united states but over time ordinary citizens decided those laws were unfair. they called on government officials to change those laws and they voted to elect new officials who shared their views. the first lady may have been telling our history but she was gesturing toward china's oppression aimed at tibetans. it did not go far enough for some. the "l.a. times" suggests the first lady was not particularly bold in her statements comparing her visit to a former first lady's in 1995. they concluded she is, quote, no hillary clinton. okay. despite that headline, this goes to whether or not discourse matters on that world stage. and you know what we know is that the chinese official

newspapers and television actually edited the comments o so not everyone in china even heard them. what kind of difference does this make, this kind of soft diplomacy? >> it has a huge impact not just in the words of michelle obama but in the model. coming to china where first ladies don't traditionally have a role in public life and taking part in this kind of open conversation, encouraging people power. some of it is the substance, some of it is the style but it makes an inroad into the chinese psyche. that creates a different type of consciousness around the united states. she's dealing in the world where more than a few governments, china, turkey, others and the bend have decided to cut off access to youtube, twitter, to make this information thing a thing. she is stepping up in a space where the u.s. still has some moral legitimacy. the open internet, despite the brouhaha over how to monitor people. >> gordon, i want to ask.

she evokes the civil rights authority. she evokes perhaps the greatest moment vis-a-vis a repressive state. is that powerful? does that still carry weight or in the context of a kind of, you know, gitmo, drones, death penalty, you know, u.s., does it just ring hollow? >> no. the fact that she went there with her mother and daughters, this is three generations in a one-child country where you just don't have that. there was a lot that was goodness and symbolism. the one thing i was concerned about is chienl na is going through aiko ers sieve and repressive attack on civil society. should any american leader be going to china? they thought it would bolster their rule so that's why she's there. she's said some really terrific things. the criticisms were misplaced. should she have gone there in the first place and that's going to be controversial when we look

at what china is about. >> panda diplomacy has been good since pat nixon. it's important. it works. the obamas have an amazing american narrative to share with the world and that is the power of this presidency. that presidency on a world stage can have tremendous impact but the reality now, where we are with this presidency is that those beautiful words about democracy as a universal right or freedom of expression as a universal right, they do ring hollow when we don't back it up, when we don't actually say we're for democracy over stability. what we're proving, that democracy needs to work for us if we're going to get behind it. the world is getting aware of that. i think this week, this trip for the obamas, it really underscores that weakness while it also highlights the strengths. look at president obama with the pope. that was genuine concern about income inequality. it was a chance for the

president to bond with this very popular pope and highlight an issue he cares about. words matter. they're an amazing narrative. it brings a lot of power but you have to live up to the words. >> first ladies are political. >> i just want to throw out. i don't want to sound like gwyneth paltrow here but is there a worst job than being first lady? if she had stepped forward saying something stronger, there were people that would have said you're radical, black panther. that's why she is soft peddling her job because in the very beginning she was the -- she was the one of that couple who was more on the left and you see that she had to pull back just as hillary clinton was criticized, criticized, criticized for whatever she did. at the time she was probably criticized for speaking out too much in china. >> i would submit there are jobs worst than being first lady. >> i was being glib. >> of course. it's an interesting point. i would spend the whole day and

think about the racialized story, the way it allows her capacity to perform the theater. always as a couple, she is not the one who gets to back up with power. that is of course always residing in the office of the presidency. up next, from human rights abroad to human rights at home. the alarming issue that could come back to haunt the obama administration. first the u.s./russia tensions, nbc news reports that secretary of state john kerry is en route home from saudi arabia and has redirected -- was en route and has redirected his plane and will travel to paris for meetings with his russian counterpart likely to take place on monday. we'll continue when we come back. [ male announcer ] they say he was born to help people clean.

but there are some places even mr. clean doesn't want to lug a whole bunch of cleaning supplies. that's why he created the magic eraser extra power. just one eraser's versatile enough to clean all kinds of different surfaces and three times more grime per swipe. so instead of fussing with rags and buckets, you can get back to the great outdoors, which can be pretty great. that's why when it comes to clean, there's only one mr. [ bird screeches ] there's only one mr. so our business can be on at&t's network for $175 a month? yup. all 5 of you for $175. our clients need a lot of attention. there's unlimited talk and text. we're working deals all day. you get 10 gigabytes of data to share. what about expansion potential? add a line, anytime, for $15 a month. low dues, great terms.

let's close! new at&t mobile share value plans our best value plans ever for business.

marge: you know, there's a more enjoyable way to get your fiber. try phillips fiber good gummies. they're delicious, and a good source of fiber to help support regularity. wife: mmmm husband: these are good! marge: the tasty side of fiber. from phillips. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good. in the end the success of our ideals comes down to us, including the example of our own lives, our own societies.

we know that there will always be intolerance, but instead of fearing the immigrant, we can welcome him. we can insist on the policies that benefit the many, not just the few. >> that was president obama in belgium on wednesday making the claim that embracing immigrants is a mark of our democratic values, but here in the united states the immigrants facing the detention and possible deportation of their loved ones are asking the president to back up that claim. on monday protestors in alabama chained themselves across the detention center causing for an end to deportation and to protest conditions inside the facility. it's the detention watch network and it's called among the worst in the country. inconsistent with basic human rights standards. this protest is not an isolated incident. the same day in tacoma, washington, they renewed a hunger strike from earlier in the month protesting

deportations and detentions in the facility. joining us is silke shaw. she is with detention network. nice to have you this morning. >> it's great to be here with you. >> so, ms. shaw, we tend to focus on the actual act of deportation being the thing that we discuss when we're talking about immigration reform. tell us why it's important to look at policies around immigration detention? >> detention essentially makes deportation easier. that's an important thing to note. our deportation policies being driven by the fact that we need to fill deportation beds? one is the detention bed quota that requires 34,000 immigrants to be detained. >> so we have a quota that requires a certain number of these beds be filled? >> we do. the appropriations language that says we shall maintain no less than 34,000 bets.

that's a major concern. we need to eliminate the quota to say some of the most egregious centers like the etowah need to be shut down. >> they tend to be related to the economic interests of subcontractors, private industry who is running thiessen terse. my understanding is that we are similarly subcontracting on thiessen terse based on immigration sen terms wouldn't we be doing better if i.c.e. was running it? >> that's a tough question. only six are operated by i.c.e. they're not that much better. about 50% of beds are operated by private prison companies and then a lot of facilities like etoweh are run by county jails. there's no conduct for how

detentions are run. facilities like etoweh, it consists of human rights abuses. nobody gets to go outside. people spend months or years without going outside. we need to question why we are putting people in detention when they're there to question their status, to be in compliance with detention and not serving a sentence. >> this is important. it's part of why we wanted to talk to you in the context of this global conversation about the moral authority of the u.s. in popular issues of human rights and rule of law. i heard you say basically in the holing of people for status offenses may rise to the level of human rights violations? >> absolutely. under the universal declaration, you know, people should be free from arbitrary arrest, detention, and deportation. the policy from 1996 said they

can't consider any factors and because of certain crimes they're man da torely detained. there is no due process. that flies in the face of human rights law. >> so to what extent then does that undermine the capacity of the first lady, of the president, of any american to make claims on the rest of the world in our diplomacy, in our conversations about human rights abuses of other states? >> i think it absolutely undermines it, but i think the other thing we need to keep in mind is that the u.s. is the world's leading incarcerator. the detention infrastructure is the largest in the world and i think we need to keep in mind that a lot of this is driven by the fact that the u.s. uses prisons in this model and is incarcerating at a rate that's completely not sound policy. over 2 million people in prisons around the country. they're using this policy. it doesn't make sense. this is not what's happening in the international context but absolutely undermines it. >> i want to listen for a moment

to speaker boehner. >> listen, there's widespread doubt about whether this administration can be trusted to enforce our laws, and it's going to be difficult to move any immigration legislation until that changes. >> so there's the speaker of the house saying that comprehensive immigration reform is pretty unlikely to happen any time soon. what are the immediate remedies that could happen that could impact this question of detention? >> well, first and foremost, we need to eliminate the quota from appropriations language. that needs to happen. that will close down facilities like etowah, deal with issues like tacoma and stop holding people in the most egregious facilities. secondly, there's been precedent set in the ninth circuit that says anybody that's held longer than six months should require a bond hearing. that should happen at the national level under a case called rodriguez.

etowah, people who are there held in prolonged detention, months, years in detention. there should be a rule that says after six months -- this is very easy to implement and is already happening in the ninth second. people deserve bond hearings, but ultimately etowah needs to shut down. >> thanks to silke shaw in washington. i appreciate your continued work on this issue. thank you here in new york to charlie sennott and nina burleigh and lara is going to stick around. the president and the pope. it is a meeting of the ages. first, an update on missing malaysia airlines flight 370. three weeks after the flight disappeared, today ships have retrieved some of the debris spotted by aircraft involved in the search. chinese media are reporting that the material is garbage and not related to the missing flight. the search has now shifted nearly 700 miles northeast of where crews had been searching.

investigators say new analysis suggests it was traveling faster than thought and ran out of fuel. australia's prime minister says the search is a painstaking process. >> we should not under estimate the difficulty of this work. it is an extraordinarily remote location. these are inhospitable seas. it's an inaccessible place. we are trying to find small bits of wreckage in a vast ocean. >> the search for the missing flight continues. stay with msnbc throughout the day for the latest developments. we're going to be right back. ht. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more. so maybe we need to approach things differently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪

salegets up to 795 highwayeal's the passamiles per tank.sel. salesperson #2: actually, we're throwing in a $1,000 fuel reward card. we've never done that. that's why there's never been a better time to buy a passat tdi clean diesel. husband: so it's like two deals in one? avo: during the salesperson #2: first ever exactly. volkswagen tdi clean diesel event, get a great deal on a passat tdi, that gets up to 795 highway miles per tank. and get a $1000 dollar fuel reward card. it's like two deals in one. hurry in and get a $1,000 fuel reward card and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models. oh! the name your price tool! you tell them how much you want to pay, and they help you find a policy that fits your budget. i told you to wear something comfortable! this is a polyester blend! whoa! uh...little help? i got you! unh! it's so beautiful! man: should we call security?

no, this is just getting good. the name your price tool, still only from progressive.

a highly anticipated moment of president obama's world tour this week was his stop at the vatican to meet with pope francis. the two world leaders shook hands. i was going for a fist bump but not unfortunately. then they had a private meeting for just less than an hour. they exchanged gifts. president obama gave the pope a

box of seeds from the white house garden noting that the pope had gardens on the grounds here. and the pope gave the president a copy of "boys of the gospel" the document that he wrote last year that talks about capitalism and inequality. joining me to talk about this is michael pepper, a contributor to common wheel magazine. julie johnson staples. lara setrakian and reverend cruz. so nice to have you all here. let me ask in part this question of church and society. it is frame in this moment of a president meeting with the pope. why is this even-even as a matter of the political theater important? why does it matter to have an

american president showing up and visiting with the pope? >> i think it's very important, more so than being important for the president but for those of us here in the u.s. who are struggling for the rights of those impoverished, for immigrants and for women's rights although the pope has problems in that area. >> so the president downplayed one of the things we'll talk about later which is the question of women's reproductive rights at least but talk about the ways in which he and the pope have a joint interest in questions of global peace and of fairness and inequality. is this just about sort of rubbing a little shoulders with pope francis who's currently more popular than the president in order to back up his sort of discourse about inequality? >> i'll speak to that. you had the john boehner clip on before. i was talking to melinda henneberger on before and talking about if the president could do anything effective in that meeting, it was to give the

pope john boehner's cell phone number. say, look, the votes are there, why is this not happening? because there's such an obvious way that the catholic emphasis on families corresponds to president obama and democrats' emphasis on reform. it doesn't have to be about amnesty, it's about keeping families together. >> what you just said there, the pope calling the speaker of the house to influence american public policy making is the thing that almost kept john f. kennedy from being elected president of the united states. we are still a nation that as a matter of institution believes there should be a separation between church and state. >> indeed. some of the symbolism between obama and the president reflects that separation of the church and state. the echo over the whole meeting was actually thomas jefferson. he's the first american president who collected seeds, gave seeds out and he's the one who set forth the principles in

our constitution for the separation of church and state. >> because he's a good unitarian universalist? >> indeed. >> i love the idea that it is the ghost of jefferson who also had his own issues. >> slave holder and declarer of independence. >> that is the types of complexity they represent. everybody stay with me. we have more pope when we come back. coming up next, we'll go beyond the symbolism and the surprising areas where they agree and disagree. and a real game changer at northwest university. the ruling that could change everything about sports and university. there is more nerdland at the top of the hour. ...return on investment wall isn't a street... isn't the only return i'm looking forward to... for some, every dollar is earned with sweat, sacrifice, courage.

which is why usaa is honored to help our members with everything from investing for retirement to saving for college. our commitment to current and former military members and their families is without equal. here's another. try charmin ultra strong. thanks mom! make me proud honey! [ female announcer ] charmin ultra strong has a duraclean texture and it's four times stronger than the leading bargain brand. enjoy the go with charmin ultra strong.

this is mike. his long race day starts with back pain... ...and a choice. take 4 advil in a day which is 2 aleve... ...for all day relief. "start your engines"

welcome back.

i'll melissa harris-perry. this week the pope met potus, president of the united states. pope francis and president obama met for 50 minutes and talked about things they agree about. income inequality as well as immigration reform and human trafficking and the war on syria. the optics of the meeting were fascinating. the pomp, circ couple standings, the gifts, awkward smiles and hand shakes. the pope, of course, is very good at giving us optics that we love. moments we take at face value and believe are sincere, like his em praise of a disfigured man who had come to pray or his patience with children or his visits with the homeless and the poor. what a surprising move just yesterday to confess his sins in public after saying mass at st. peter's basilica. so was president obama good at optics, even better at words. we were psyched for the two of them to meet, but the meeting wasn't all sunshine and joy.

optics aside, the two men discussed substantive and thorny topics. the pope's secretary of state made sure to bring up the contraception mandate in president obama's law, something the vatican and the american bishops have vocally opposed. the vatican highlighted that aspect of the discussion but president obama was quick to downplay just how much he talked about birth control with the pope. >> he actually did not touch in detail on the affordable care act. we did not talk a whole lot about social schisms in my conversations with his holiness. in fact, that really was not a topic of conversation. >> back with me in the studio, michael pepper, theology professor at fordham. julie johnson staples, minister of education. lara setrakian, we were working on it at the break.

and reverend samuel cruz. he's at the union theo logic seminary. lara, i want to start with you. the notion of the president of the united states and the pope talking about peace in the world when, in fact, the history of both the catholic church and of the united states has, let's say, peaceful is not necessarily the term one might most likely use to define and describe them. can these institutes be moved towards the good? >> that's a critical question. what i see in these two men are two men with common cause and common constraints. they're steering very big ships in a very new direction. they both came in on a wave of optimism, euphoria. that also sets up very high expectations. the pope is in his moment of glow. i hesitate to use halo effect. so tasteless. he's really a superstar on the global stage and he has people's hearts and minds and in a moment where global conflict is so

interwoven with sectarian concerns, when you look at the middle east, you see fears for the safety and the future of christians in the middle east, the pope has made that part of what he stands for, they do find this point of connection where they can try to advance some of these shared goals and sweep some of the more contentious issues to the side. >> i like this idea that in certain ways pope francis at this moment is almost like president obama circa '09, 2010, still sort of on that rise. of course, those first two years when president obama had a democratic congress he also did enormous policy change as a part of sort of that mandate. let me do the politics here. on the one hand you have a leader of the united states and so sometimes we call it the free world meeting, and yet the president himself, well, the pope isn't really political. let's listen to that for a moment. >> i don't think that his

holiness envisions entering into a partnership or coalition with any political figure on any issue. his job is more elevated. we're down on the ground dealing with the often profane and he's dealing with higher powers. >> rick santorum was saying something somewhat similar but less artfully. >> i don't think the vatican has political aspirations. the pope isn't running for anything and he doesn't have any interim elections that he's worried about. you would think the vatican read is probably more accurate as to what was discussed than a president who clearly went there to try to piggyback on some of the popularity of the pope in america. >> so there's santorum on fox news saying this is politics, but only on the part of the president. i think, come on, this is naive. there's always politics in the church. >> there's always politics in the church and there's always poll continues in the white

house. i think a lot of what we have here is remembering when ronald regan met with pope john paul ii and there was a substantial focus on poland. i think the stakes were hide for both sides to say that's what this is. it's important to speak on common issues. there were attempts on their lives. in one it was a first year of reagan's term, second year early on. right now we're at a totally different arc in the cycle. obama is on his way out, the pope is on his way in. they've got to find the common ground, but common ground on which they can make a difference. honestly, i think it's probably not going to be some of the more polarizing issues for the contraception or piece in the middle east. probably something like immigration where that can be a lasting legacy for obama if he were able to turn the needle on that. >> the conference of bishops and the hierarchy of the church

talks about the polarization of birth control. empirically, how much do they get from 1980 from the reagan moment forward to 2012, basically it's about half, right? in fact, less of the vote went to the democrats. now president obama elected with 53% of the catholic vote, 51% in 2012. it's probably less irish catholic and more latino catholic. are we overstating this great polarization around aca? >> i'll speak to that. i would say, first of all, you're right. there is no catholic vote. catholics have assimilated to where they're more on the whole of the american voting patterns. on the aca, getting back to the persecution, both of these leaders make very clear that they were talking about peace and persecution in the middle

east if they were talking about persecution at all, that they were not talking about persecution of health insurance, premium support and burt control. the catholics have supported universal health care. that being said, to represent the catholic leadership if i can -- i'm not a leader, if you but you know what i am saying. if i can summarize, one is that it took the pro life democrats to get that passed. i believe that the deals that they made may not be honored. that's a concern they had. secondly you saw justice kennedy -- >> in the hobby lobby. >> in the hobby lobby. maybe the agency went too far and that's something kennedy is thinking about. doesn't mean he's going to rule that way, but it's something that's on his mind which is also i think part of the catholic children. >> i think it's important to look at this from a global perspective. >> yes. >> these are two global leaders.

just last month there was a global poll that showed catholics across the world broke rank with the church on contraceptives in catholic countries, france, argentina, brazil. government-led and government-financed health care is covering contraception. >> this seems so foreign. the origins of this pope from whence he comes. president obama talked about why he would understand immigration discourse, but it's also why he would understand a discourse around a separation between a church's position because in latin america this has been a central issue around policy. if the people of latin america cannot control their frugility. >> if theology doesn't change its position but it has sort of backed away from the notion that

it must impose its position relative to policy. >> i think this was a difficult meeting for obama. i think the meeting went better for the pope and if obama distances himself from the economic issue and saying the pope wasn't political was a way not to deal with the real issues. obama was dealing with the fact that the pope criticized capitalism. he has a horrible track record on that. obama had to distance himself. it was a win-win meeting for the pope. >> we'll take a break and come back on exactly that issue. there is the sort of giving of seeds and then the pope gives the book that's like, yeah, your whole practice, not so much. stay right there, up next the pope and the president trying to find common ground on an issue that seems far beyond congress. >> i pledge to continue to dialogue with the u.s. conference of bishops to make

sure that we can strike the right balance making sure that not only everybody has health care but families and women in particular are able to enjoy the kind of health care coverage that the ac offers but that religious freedom is still observed. in quitting smoking. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix varenicline is proven to help people quit smoking. chantix reduced the urge for me to smoke. it actually caught me by surprise. [ male announcer ] some people had changes in behavior, thinking, or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood, and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental-health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you develop these, stop chantix and see your doctor right away, as some can be life-threatening. tell your doctor if you have a history of heart or blood-vessel problems or if you develop new or worse symptoms.

get medical help right away if you have symptoms of a heart attack or stroke. use caution when driving or operating machinery. common side effects include nausea, trouble sleeping, and unusual dreams. i did not know what it was like to be a nonsmoker, but i do now. [ male announcer ] ask your doctor if chantix is right for you.

okay. so now to what the pope and the president do agree about. the need for serious immigration reform. his very first trip to -- as pope outside of rome was to a mediterranean island that has become a refuge for african immigrants trying to make it to europe. he says the deaths of thousands of those migrants at the sea is a thorn in the heart.

he's compared them to jesus, joseph and mary fleeing to egypt. president obama is still holding out hope that somehow the president could pass comprehensive immigration reform as a path to immigration reform or legal status. you were just challenging this as the president's track record on deportation. we were just talking about the human rights violations around the tension. could you imagine the vatican actively publicly denouncing the actions of the united states of america relative to immigration given that its practices are out of line with the vatican teachings? >> i think the pope is doing that indirectly. like everything else he does. he doesn't challenge things head on but he lets people think their minds. no matter what president obama says about his desire for immigration reform, his track record is horrible. the destruction of families, we rarely talk about this, but a lot of these people who are being deported, their children

stay behind. in fact, sometimes children are at school and no one comes to pick them up because they've been detained and deported. it's something that has damaged obama's legacy. >> i so appreciate you saying that. it helps give lie to that will lie of anchor baby. it doesn't anchor the parents. we've seen the parents broken up over and over again. this is a way of talking about immigration reform within an ethical and moral context that isn't about terrorism or labor anxiety but it is about the maintenance and preservation of families which the right is meant to be in support of. >> that's right. i'll even go one step further. it's a liberty issue which is the rights. bishop daniel flores has the largest latino diocese. he was on this ad hoc commission and he convinced them -- well, he very forcefully articulated how what they call harboring

immigrants is what the bible commands them to do. it is religious freedom. it can't be outlawed. it's in my mandate. >> i love this. if i have to not pay for your birth control, i must harbor the migrant. >> i have to say that draws a perfect link to how this brings it all down to the pope and the president which is for the pope, he comes from a jesuit tradition. this is about social justice. he has a compassionate view on policy frankly and if you put that together in the american context, that means caring about people on your shores wherever they come from and certainly stop them from being torn apart from their loved ones. >> your point, this is important, this notion of the jesuit way of being catholic. we have seen it so much in the practices of this pope. a 10-year-old girl had- >> do you want to tell the story? >> just before the meeting of the potus and the pontiff. you have a young girl from

panorama city coming, praying, begging for the pope to intervene to keep her father from being deported. for a bit of time, the moment of time we're in, he has been released and he is pending a judicial hearing, however, what barack obama does not want to be remembered as is deporter in chief. there's a lot of arguments around the numbers and whether he has deported 2 million or some number fewer than that. mostly individuals with criminal backgrounds or not? but the bottom line is they have to get it sorted out. standing between the president and the solution frankly is john boehner and a very obstructionist house of representatives. i don't see whether he meets with the pope for anything other than prayer and he asks for it is going to change that. >> i think it's important to make clear that most of the people who have been deported don't have criminal backgrounds. >> that's right. these are status offenses for the most part. in fact, some of the victims of

human trafficking which the pope and the president spoke about, some of the people who are victimized by human trafficking are, therefore, status offenders relative to immigration, end up in detention centers in horrifying conditions. i want to underline one more time the point you just made that it is easy for us to see the state as resting solely in the person that is president obama and this idea of the responsibility for immigration reform. yes, he does not want to be seen as deporter in chief. there are clearly some actions he can take as the executive, but -- >> but the question is whether or not we can get legislative action. >> right. >> one point about the optics of this on the united states. you may not know that pope francis' closest american advisor, shawn o'malley in boston, is going to be organizing something they call lumpadusa in the united states. it will have the optics of this event that the pope did for refugees to the european continent in the united states.

the pope is very much in support of the idea that all religious orders, jesuits, francis cans are to use their resources. when he had them gathered at the vatican to talk about how to use some of their empty buildings that they had, he had this line that sticks with me. he said your empty con vents, empty buildings are not to make money, they're not for ours. these are for the flesh of cries who a christ who are refugees. i have chills. >> it is a very different way of imagining and orlging what constitutes the central values of the church and the way that's been laid on the political realm. thank you for joining me. i want to thank my guests, michael pepper, julie johnson staples and reverend cruz and lara setrakian. >> news from washington state. good news from maryland and the fight for equality.

on thursday night the maryland house approved the fairness for all mary landers. it prohibits discrimination for the members of the transgender community in employment, housing, credit and public accommodation. the bill goes to governor martin o'malley who says he is going to sign it. once it is signed into law maryland will join 17 other states and the district of columbia that have passed laws to pass transgender rights. we're going to be right back. [ sniffles, coughs ] shhhh! i have a cold with this annoying runny nose. [ sniffles ] i better take something. [ male announcer ] dayquil cold and flu doesn't treat all that. it doesn't? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast-acting antihistamine. oh, what a relief it is! [ mom ] when we're having this much fun, why quit? and new bounty has no quit in it either. watch how one sheet of new bounty keeps working, while their two sheets just quit. new bounty. the no-quit picker-upper.

while their two sheets just quit. it's where you email, yshop, even bank.e here, but are you too comfortable? these days crime can happen in a few keystrokes. american express can help protect you with intelligent security that learns your spending patterns, and can alert you to an unusual charge instantly. so you can be a member of a more secure world. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. you've reached the age where you know how things work. this is the age of knowing what needs to be done. so why let erectile dysfunction get in your way?

talk to your doctor about viagra. 20 million men already have. ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long- term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to you doctor. ordinarily on a saturday on mhp we reserve a few minutes to send a letter with a little admonishment or enlightenment. this week i want to use my time to send my support by acknowledging and recognizing the victims of last week's catastrophic mudslide in oso, washington.

today marks day eight of a mud slight that obliterated a community. as of yesterday, despite the tireless effort of a team by more than 200 local, state, federal search and rescue workers, 90 members of that community remain missing. nearly 100 families are still wondering and waiting for news about their loved ones and others have already received the worst news possible. friday the official death toll rose to 17 with expectation that that number is going to grow. among those identified so far was 4-month-old sonoah eustice. she was discovered not far from her grandmother's body. the discovery of the child prompted a moment of silence that has prompted the removal of each victim who has been unearthed from the wreckage. in the rescue workers' quiet tribute we can see what is called for in this instance, a

recognition of a frailty of existence. there will be time for discussion of other weather related catastrophes. there will be space to plan for the long road ahead to recover and to rebuild, and there will surely come the necessary conversations about how to protect and prevent losses to future natural disasters that are inevitably going to come. we eventually got there after hurricane katrina inundated my hometown of new orleans and killed more than 1800 people in louisiana and mississippi. moore, oklahoma, took those first difficult steps after a massive tornado claimed lives and homes, schools and businesses when it tore through last year. and those efforts to rebound were well underway a year after hurricane sandy battered new jersey and new york. but now, now is a time to remember that what was lost in oso, washington, is the same as what is being rebuilt at the sites of all those other

disasters, not just houses but homes, communities of residences, cabins, and barns, and most importantly people, people who lived along a county lane on a hill. in a matter of moments, the lives that were built on that hill were reduced to a jumble of sheetrock and wood and wiring beneath a waist deep pile of brown and gray mud. the tragic loss that one small community is one that should resonate with all of us. whether that sudden catastrophe comes in the form of shifting earth or rising waters or squalling winds or at the hands of other people intending to induce terror, none of us is invulnerable. what matters most in the immediate aftermath of these moments of human vulnerability is the humanity of how we respond. once again, we can look to inspiration of the people of oso. the residents who have been asked to stop bringing food to the fire stations because they are already full to brimming

with donations from the community. t the heroic workers and only pushing on and keeping going. and so even as the meeting of the president and the pope overseas has put the world spotlight on human compassion and our moral obligations to one another, we only need to look as far as oso, washington, to find a shining example of that grace much closer to home. r fiber. try phillips fiber good gummies. r fiber. they're delicious, and a good source of fiber to help support regularity. wife: mmmm husband: these are good! marge: the tasty side of fiber. from phillips.

how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? then we gave each person a ribbon

to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more. so maybe we need to approach things differently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪ the ncaa men's basketball tournament is down to the final eight teams, the elite eight. next weekend the final four, the pinnacle of the most profitable time of the year for collegiate athletics. the yearly broadcast rights for the men's tournament are $771 million. 90% of the ncaa's entire revenue for the year. the ncaa can look forward to an estimated $7.2 billion for tv

rights for the new college football playoff system that starts this year. now thanks to an historic decision on tuesday it seems that the athletes at the center of all of this action may finally get a piece of it. and it may not just be a tipping point in collegiate athletics but in the american labor battle as well. the chicago branch of the national labor relations board ruled wednesday that northwestern football players led by their former quarterback kane colter have the right to hold a union election and to be eligible for workplace rights protections under the national labor relations act. colter the day after the decision visited msnbc's ""the ed show."" >> the number one concern for us is that we don't have a voice and we don't have a seat at the table right now. all these rules and regulations are formed by the ncaa, the conferences, and we have no input in that. nobody comes and asks the players how do you feel about this? how do you feel you should fit in the equation.

yesterday that was a huge step in the path for players to have a voice and seat at the table. >> the ncaa signaled its disappointment with a statement that read in part, quote, while improvements need to be made, we do not need to completely throw away a system that has helped literally millions of students over the past decade. northwestern university itself signified its intention to appeal and had until april 9th to do so. if the university follows through, what chance do the athletes have at reforming a union? about as good as regular unions, which is not all that good. as msnbc reporter ned resnikoff, even if they never win an nlrb administered vote, it could be a major precedent. joining me, sabina gupta. jeffrey kesler filed a lawsuit against the ncaa. dave zyron, sports editor from the nation magazine.

from baltimore, maryland, taylor branch who wrote the foundational piece in "the atlantic" in 2011, the shame of college sports. so nice to have you all here with us today. we're doing a little espn style five box here. professor branch, i want to start with you because it does feel to me that what i have read from you and heard from is that this issue is a fundamental labor rights issue, that the ncaa wants to make a claim about it being a difficult policy but that regardless of how it actually gets implemented, the right to organize is a fundamental right, like a civil right. >> it is a fundamental right. there are many fundamental rights at stake here. this ruling is already historic in the sense that it recognizes, gives a chance for college students, college athletes to

have their rights vindicated. they will be the first talent pool to win collective bargaining rights before they have individual bargaining rights. college players, as quarterback colter said, do not -- not only do they not have a seat at the table, they are demonized if they even ask for anything, if they even speak up. they are literally searched because of the fiction of the student athlete. this is a wake-up call for most people to recognize that college athletes are generating billions of dollars of money while being treated like serfs with not only no collective bargaining rights but no individual bargaining rights. >> dave, pick up where taylor branch has left off. for folks filling out their brackets and enjoying the ncaa march madness, to hear a distinguished scholar like taylor branch say the ncaa

athletes are serfs can ring strange if you haven't been following this. explain why the notion of student athletes is a fixi shfi and how this apologizes? >> first, my apologies to my 9-year-old daughter who thought i was going to be on with taylor swift. upton sinclair said in 1992, college athletics under the spur of commercialism has become a cancer. it's the emetastization. the whole idea of a student athlete was developed as a legal term to prevent the widow of a player, ray dennison, from collecting workers' compensation. the argument by the ncaa is wait a minute, they're not workers, they're student athletes. therefore, we owe them nothing. what's changed, the settled law

that they are student athletes, it's the way that cable television money has dramatically changed the economic relationships at play. woody hayes when he coached ohio state in the early 1980s made $42,000 a year. the coach now, urban meyer, makes 4 million as a base salary. it is as you said, melissa, a multi-billion dollar business and the position of the player is the same as it was decades ago. >> i love this. i want to come to you, mr. kesler, on exactly this. what i've heard dave saying around this and now this new ruling suggests the possibility that we're going to take apart the very idea of student athlete and instead recognize the athletes as employees of the university. deadspin said of your lawsuit, that it is potentially the ncaa killing lawsuit and that unlike previous suits, this one does not seek damages but simply wants to tear down the ncaa.

is that a fair analysis of your lawsuit? >> that is a very fair analysis. >> okay. >> what we're trying to do is strike down the ncaa rulings which say that colleges can't give one nickel to these athletes, one benefit to these athletes beyond the cartel price that the ncaa sets. for example, let's say northwestern wanted to give health coverage to these players after they stopped playing football. the ncaa rules prohibit that. all we're doing is striking down these rules and let the schools decide what's fair to the athletes. then what will happen is competition will force the more reluctant schools to follow the more enlightened schools or else

they won't get the players. >> i love this. i just -- it feels to me like this is one of the few times when the politics of the free market, the politics between the free schools and the top athletes could have potentially beneficial effects for labor so that you have the nlrb ruling saying, okay, you can have collective bargaining rights and you have mr. kesler's lawsuit potentially saying you can't set the cartel price which is just a scholarship. these students can't work as work study students. this is just beyond any -- no other student on campus has the kinds of restrirkt shuns that these young men and women have to live under be. is this a fulcrum point not just for sports but for the american labor movement? free market and labor together benefitting? >> absolutely, melissa. i think this is a huge and

significant ruling, enormous opportunity, as you said, to suggest that -- or to confirm what we all believe and agree, which is college athletes are in fact working. not playing, they're working. >> yes. >> these are not student athletes, these are employees of a large corporation that profit off of the work that they provide and so what's interesting in the context of the labor movement, it reflects what we see happening across the board. there are so many groups of workers who have been excluded or marginalized because of our broken labor laws but are now finding their voice because they need a voice. models are organizing today. there's across the board, across industries we will see new sets of workers because of the changing nature of work. new sets of workers who are stepping up and really trying to have a voice on the job. >> college campuses are a key

place. we're going to talk about athletes and graduate students working, faculty. particularly faculty contingent who are not protected. i do want to point out that northwestern put out a statement saying that northwestern believes the decision of the nlrb overlooked or completely ignored much of the critical testimony supporting the university's position that student athletes are not employees of northwestern. stay with us. when we come back, dave, i'm going to come to you and push a little bit about whether this will create this competition around labor and whether or not students will not go to places where they don't have their union organizing rights. first, the latest on the search for the malaysian airlines flight van nised with 239 people on board. they spotted three on jerkts in the new search area in the indian ocean off australia. chinese ships retrieved debris. they're reporting the material is garbage and not related to the missing flight. stay with msnbc for the latest

on this developing story. her long day on set starts with shoulder pain... ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!" humans. even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems. namely, other humans. which is why, at liberty mutual insurance,

auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. see what else comes standard at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? all sectors are looking great. excellent. hey, what are you guys doing? oh, well we're double checking the distributed antenna system. so when all you fans post to instagram, there will be more network to handle it. so, uh you guys hiring? do you know how to optimize a nine beam, multi-beam antenna system? nope, that a deal breaker? pretty much. alright. enjoy the show! at&t is building you a better network.

try new olay fresh effects dew over gel moisturizer to wake up skin with a burst of cool hydration, with a hint of powder to help absorb oil. for instant beauty sleep, no sleep required. new fresh effects from olay.

wednesday's ruling by the national labor relations board may start the beginning of something new. what does that mean for colleges in states that are hostile to unions? dave zyron wrote, what if the best players as was suggested to me on twitter now avoid the southeastern conference? they make it more difficult to build a strong union. will this leave a state like alabama where the crimson tide, auburn tiger where the crimson are king, keep the best players not available? part of this ruling, i just want to clarify this, this is for private schools. >> yes. >> does it necessarily impact players at state universities but also the at state universities where we see some of the greatest inequality where

we see some of the highest paid state worker being the football coach or basketball coach? >> actually, in 39 of 50 states, the highest paid employee is the football coach or basketball coach. it's about stanford, notre dame, northwestern. the ruling states that at public colleges the players have to go according to whatever those state's labor laws are, so that's another crack at the ncaa cartel. there's this great line from the movie "miller's crossing" you only run this town because the people think you run it. the minute people stop thinking that the ncaa has absolute control over the situation, that's the minute you start seeing people start to say, okay, i'm going to go to a pub anything school. maybe i'll go to california where there aren't right to work laws. >> so, mr. kesler, let me ask

about exactly that notion of breaking the idea that the ncaa is a rule maker. there's a sports scandal. the scandal is in fact something that isn't illegal, it's against ncaa rules which, as you're saying, are unnecessarily punitive often to the young people. will this change the whole idea of what constitutes a scandal in collegiate sports? >> well, i think it should. in any other industry, let's not kid ourselves, big-time basketball and big-time football are industries. >> yes. >> in any other one, if the companies got together and said, we can't pay workers more than this, we can't give them benefits more than this, they would go to jail. that's a criminal violation of the antitrust laws. the ncaa has created this myth that everybody is an amateur. the only thing that's amateur about this is that the people

providing the labor can't get anything. >> yeah. >> their employers can't provide them with a single benefit. now i have a little 2 1/2-year-old grandson named jordan, okay? he'll probably never play basketball or football, but i want him to be in a world where he feels good about how the schools he is attending are treating the people there. >> yes. >> right. so i appreciate that. having grown up at the university of virginia, gone to wake forest university, gone to duke university. i am an acc girl in my core. i think about these student athletes, mr. branch. they're the young men and women i went to school with. they're not out there in the world. as i think of you in part as a civil rights historian, someone who has written about the greatest movements for minority equality in this country, part of how you framed this almost sounds like share cropping, right? this idea of a paternal istic

system. we'll have you provide all the labor and we'll reap the profits. i don't want to overstate it, but is this basically a contemporary system of share cropping that the students find themselves in, mr. branch? >> yes. one day we'll wake up and kick ourselves and say how can we be so brainwashed and not recognize this. you can't manage conflict between academics and big-time sports unless you recognize the conflicts exist. right now we prethaend big-time athletics and education are the same thing and only the ncaa understands how to manage this hypothetical creature called the student athlete. we have to recognize they've been denied this all the time. fans cheer and boo. they want whatever they want.

some denigrate the athletes or yell at them. i do believe universities and faculties for not being able to recognize the basic distinction, where they deliver value and big-time sports where the athletes are creating millions of dollars for the university. those are fundamentally different things. all we have to do is to recognize that and say the students have the same rights and the athletes as everybody else. the whole system will adapt from there. >> i'm so happy you called out the faculty. i spent my entire career on faculties. universities are meant to be faculty governed. far too frequently we are silent on these questions rather than getting actively engaged. stay with us. i want to ask that five box espn style, is this in part about race? salesperson #1: so again, throwing in the $1,000 fuel reward card

is really what makes it like two deals in one. salesperson #2: actually, getting a great car with 42 highway miles per gallon makes it like two deals in one. salesperson #1: point is there's never been a better time to buy a jetta tdi clean diesel. avo: during the first ever volkswagen tdi clean diesel event get a great deal on a jetta tdi. it gets 42 highway miles per gallon. and get a $1,000 fuel reward card. it's like two deals in one. volkswagen has the most tdi clean diesel models of any brand. hurry in and get a $1,000 fuel reward card and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models. a 401(k) is the most sound way to go. let's talk asset allocation. sure. you seem knowledgeable, professional. i'm actually a dj. [ dance music plays ] woman: [laughs] no way! that really is you? if they're not a cfp pro, you just don't know. cfp -- work with the highest standard. predibut, manufacturings a prettin the united states do. means advanced technology. we learned that technology allows us to be craft oriented. no one's losing their job. there's no beer robot that has suddenly chased them out.

the technology is actually creating new jobs. siemens designed and built the right tools and resources to get the job done. hey kevin...still eating chalk for hearburn? yea. try alka seltzer fruit chews. they work fast on heart burn and taste awesome. these are good. told ya! i'm feeling better already. alka-seltzer fruit chews. enjoy the relief!

i wanted to take a look at this poll. look at these numbers. overall, there is a vast opposition in the public to paying college athletes. but when you break those numbers down by race, you see a real distinction. according to this abc "washington post" poll, 51% of people of color support paying college athletes. but opposition among white americans is at 73%. usa, we need to think clearly about what the actual job is that these student athletes are doing. >> that's right. so race absolutely has a role to play in this. we shouldn't pretend that it doesn't. we're talking about in this case in particular, predominantly black athletes who are really at risk of injury. like, their work puts them at risk of head trauma injury, right? and what that amounts to is some of the issues that mr. kessler race raised, right? this idea if a university wants to and can provide benefits,

like medical coverage, and access to care that they will need because of these injuries, that's huge. that's part of what's at stake here. but also, what's at stake is these are young men and women who are also on a path to an education to get a career. and often are denied being able to go to classes. >> right. exactly. >> they're being told you can't go to classes because it's going to interfere with your practice. >> yep. dave, you want in on this. >> yep, just once we dispense with the niceties, the ncaa operates a system that is a theft of organized black wealth. they overwhelmingly populate the sports. and that's not a coincidence i'm not saying the ncaa created disparity in race and poverty but they benefit from it. >> when he calls faculty to it, we can't do better. and no one institution can do better if, in fact, i can govern my university, i can change the

rules of my university, but i can't change the rules of the athletic team, because it's governed by the ncaa. is that right, mr. kessler? >> absolutely. and one very important point. only 1% of these athletes will ever have a pro career. so this is their shot. if they can't get a chance to benefit from this now, it's never going to happen for them. >> that's right. >> thank you so much to serena gupta and jeffrey kessler. taylor branch in baltimore, maryland. so fantastic to have you. >> welcome back, melissa. >> thank you. it's nice to be back. i wonder if my 6-week-old daughter is watching. we will see you again tomorrow morning. that is our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. i'm going to see you tomorrow morning, 10:00 a.m. eastern. and remember, if you're taking the nerd land scholar challenge, join me for our live chat,

mothers in the labors force and mothers in public office. like me, here i am at work, the baby, she's not at work with me. you can submit your questions now by commenting on today's article. find it by going to nerdland challenge.msnbc.com. and right now a preview for weekends with alex witt. >> i'm so glad you're back. and you know your 6-week-old daughter is up. anyway, glad you're back, melissa. we have a busy hour ahead, including breaking news in the search for that missing plane. objects pulled from the water. we're going to have the latest on that. high stakes. a political prize that has jeb bush, chris christie and others converging in las vegas today. kobe bryant. our panel weighs in on his comments about trayvon martin that sparked a social media firestorm. and the story behind the video that's gone viral. did a rude driver get what he deserved? don't go anywhere. i'll be right back. mayo? corn dogs? you are so outta here!

aah! [ female announcer ] the complete balanced nutrition of great-tasting ensure. 24 vitamins and minerals, antioxidants, and 9 grams of protein. [ bottle ] ensure®. nutrition in charge™. marge: you know, there's a more enjoyable [ bottle ] ensure®. way to get your fiber. try phillips fiber good gummies. they're delicious, and a good source of fiber to help support regularity. wife: mmmm husband: these are good! marge: the tasty side of fiber. from phillips. i'm a messy person. i don't like cleaning. i love my son, but he never cleans up. always leaves a trail of crumbs behind. you're going to have a problem with getting a wife. uh, yeah, i guess. [ laughs ] this is ridiculous. christopher glenn! [ doorbell rings ] what is that? swiffer sweep & trap. i think i can use this. it picks up everything. i like this. that's a lot of dirt. it's that easy! good job chris! i think a woman will probably come your way. [ both laugh ] ♪

♪ ♪ yeah. i heard about progressive's "name your price" tool? i guess you can tell them how much you want to pay and it gives you a range of options to choose from. huh? i'm looking at it right now. oh, yeah? yeah. what's the... guest room situation? the "name your price" tool, making the world a little more progressive. they're about 10 times softer and may have surface pores where bacteria can multiply. polident kills 99.99%

of odor causing bacteria and helps dissolve stains. that's why i recommend polident. [ male announcer ] cleaner, fresher, brighter every day. ♪ ♪ [ female announcer ] with five perfectly sweetened whole grains... you can't help but see the good. a possible breakthrough.

two ships find objects as they search for flight 370. the big question, is it connected to the plane's disappearance. one of the key figures in the so-called bridge-gate scandal strikes back. the strong words after this week's christie administration report. a series of aftershocks on the west coast after the second quake in the l.a. area in as many weeks. a live report, next. the u.s. standoff with russia. is there a silver lining for america's energy future? a new report examines that question. hello, everyone. hi noon here in the east. 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to "weekends with alex wi witt. "breaking news in the hunt for the missing malaysia airlines jet. for the first time, several objects have been recovered from the indian ocean. the australian maritime search authority says two ships pulled a number of objects from the sea inside that new search zone.

it's about