or everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. debunking the notion obama is the deporter in chief. this has been a busy weekend for imfwrags reform advocates across the country. this was the scene in new orleans, louisiana, yesterday, and in des moines, iowa, on friday. here is new york city yesterday. also san jose, california, yesterday. protesters in washington, d.c., yesterday headed toward the white house marching because president obama had just reached an estimated 2 million deportations in his presidency. 2 million deportations.

the president might have thought that would be a useful figure, a talking point, like speaker of the house john boehner who has charged he can't work with obama on immigration reform because the president isn't doing enough to enforce immigration laws. on the other hand, though, 2 million deportations have earned the president the unfortunate nickname among immigration advocates like the president of the national council who scoffed at speaker john boehner's remarks at awards dinners just last month. >> serious ly? failure to enforce our laws? for us this president has been the deporter in chief. >> now on the surface her charge is not without merit. the obama administration has 400,000 deportations a year during his first term, more than the eight-year average under george w. bush and four times the average under president clinton the. but it doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. an article in the "los angeles

times" the other day, based on statistics that have gone almost completely unnoticed in this debate, put that criticism of obama in a brand-new light. arguing that the deportation surge actually has nothing to do with undocumented immigrants who are settled and working in the you states. quoting from the article, until recent years, most people caught illegally crossing the southern border were bussed back into mexico in voluntary returns. those remofls which during the 1990s reached more than a million a year, were not counted in immigration, custom enforcement statistics. now the vast majority of border crossers get fingerprinted and formally deported. the change began during the george w. bush administration and accelerated under obama which means that expulsions of people settled and working in the united states have fallen steadily since president obama's first year in office. they're down more be than 40% since 2009. the other side of the ledger,

t the number of people deported at the or near the border has gone up primarily as a result of changing who gets counted in deportation statistics the. so that's the full context. but, still, the president was labelled deporter in chief by one of the country's largest hispanic organizations and it got a white house response. the administration moved quick ly to get homeland security secretary johnson to formulate a more humane deportation policy. another interesting briwrinkle the national council of la raza was not first in calling the president the deporter in chief. the term started long before with young immigration activists, student protesters, capital "d" dreamers. their engagement or lack of engagement is now raising concern with democrats who need their support if they have any hope of obtaining control of the senate this year. across the country "the new york times" report this had week organizers who sign up latinas to vote say there is huge disillusionment among potential voters especially young adults. the organizer pictured in the photo said shea approached 50

people in kcolorado trying to gt them to register. not a single person was interested in her pitch including those already 0 old enough to vote. they were like, why? why would i bother to vote, she explained. it is important for democrats even in an election year when participation among latino voters drops. so here it is. democrats are sounding the alarm early and looking for ways to recharge young hispanic voters to to get them fired up and ready to go from the last election of the obama presidency, the last mid-term election. what can they do? what should they do in the seven months until election day? short of actually passing immigration reform in congress, well, here with us to discuss that msnbc contributor perry bacon jr. the political editor of the grio.com. the former director of hispanic press are for the obama 2012 campaign as well as msnbc contributor victoria did i francesca from the university of texas and joining us from los angeles we have fabian nunez, the former democratic speaker of the california state assembly

getting up very early out there the. we appreciate that extra knowing the west coast time on a sunday morning can be rough. i guess i'll start with the statistics we laid out there because this is something i didn't even realize until reading it this week. how well known is this idea -- the basic idea of deportations being up under obama, everyone espouses the talking point. how well known is it even among activists that there's a difference between people who are quickly crossing the border and being returned versus people settled, have families, have jobs? there's a huge difference. >> i wouldn't necessarily focus on how well known the actual numbers of who is being deported is, rather how the community and especially dreamers are feeling it. so in 2011 you're talking about the fact latino voters if you ask them, do you know somebody who is in the process of deportation, 25% would say yes. last year -- no, 39% say yes.

we're talking 4 out of 10 latino voters have a personal relationship with somebody who is being deported or is in the process of deportation and that changes you. >> so how does that mesh with the sta ttistics from the "l.a. times" story? the "l.a. times" story, there's a quote in there that says, look, if you're settled in the united states, if you're working, you have essentially zero chance of being deported. it's basically people who might quickly cross the border for an hour or something and are apprehended. >> quickly cross the border or come back because they have established lives n. a state like maryland. 40% of the people deported had never been convicted of a criminal offense, rather, had lives and families and had been there over ten years. statistics are misleading. and i don't know if you guys agree, i have very deep roots in the community and for me the same. when i started in this, it was this move to process -- like 13 years ago it was a devastating situation but it didn't happen to me. i get calls every single week

with somebody that i know either directly or by one degree of separation who is in the process of their family being torn apart, and this is motivating dreamers, especially when you combine the fact that you're 16 years old, all of a sudden you can't drive. your friends are going to vote. you were brought up american and you have every intention to participate in the political process and you can't. that angst leads to mobilization. >> and, victoria, it seems like what i'm picking up on, the administration, we outline the political reasons. obama received 71% of latino vote. democrats look not just at 2014 but well beyond that and say we need to make this sort of a permanent part of our coalition. so i sort of understand the idea of the administration now maybe trying to get the message out there that, hey, all this stuff about deportations is not as bad as it looks. but politically speaking he's been playing the opposite game where it's been about let's make sure the right doesn't worry that i'm going too far.

let's buy cover with immigration reform. maybe they're taking a different tack now. >> steve, we can argue about immigration and detention rates and deportation rates but what the obama administration needs to do in the short term in order to win elections, they need to get away from immigration, get beyond immigration. latinos care about more than immigration. for the 2012 election, there's a poll, they ask you what are the most important issues to you and your family? over 50% of la tinos say the economy and jobs. don't forget that latinos were the hardest hit by the recession. we care about immigration but along with health care and we need to get away and focus. it's important but there is more to our community and we also need to be more creative. latinos will be mobilized different than the american community, than the anglo community. we need to level our cultural resources and our family resources more than just that "new york times" art lcal, the girl walks up to the kids

skateboarding. all right, you need to go through the family, through the church, and that's how you mobilize. >> i want to bring in fabien out in california, now that it's 5:00 a.m. make sure you don't fall asleep on us. there's a gubernatorial race in california this year. jerry brown is running for re-election, cash kashkari, the republic kwan, will be his opponent. voters have shifted so strongly to the democratic column in california the last 20 years, have really helped make that state one of the bluest in the country. the discussion we're having here, though, potentially the reputation of the deporter in chief reputation manage latinos, are you finding that is a problem for the president, a problem for your party in california in terms of engaging

with latino voters in particular? >> well, in california, a little bit different than the rest of the country. we in new york have a lot in common in that respect. we don't have strong republican challengers, not for governor, not for u.s. senate. in fact, most of the house, the state legislature is in democratic hands. but i think the president does have a very, very serious problem with respect to how they manage the immigration issue. although i do agree with victoria on the question latinos are not just about immigration, we care about education, health reform and many, many other things. the immigration issue has dogged this president, and here is why. i think fundamentally what has happened the president made a political miscalculation under janet napolitano when she was leading home lapped security ho homeland security and decided they were doing deportations and it's not just deportations at the border with the voluntary

departures that people make where they agree to be deported in lieu of being arrested. so those didn't get accounted for once upon a time. now they did. the administration has never said anything about this until this "l.a. times" article showed up. initially this president decided to do immigration reform by playing to the republicans on being strong on border controls and at the same time when they advertise this, i think that they caused a lot of problems within the latino immigrant community, and people don't expect democratic presidents to be doing mass deportations and we haven't seen mass deportations but we have seen enough deportations where 2 million people are 2 million people and folks are being affected by this. the president is going to have to find a way to address this issue beyond the we of the dreamers because i think what he did with the dreamers was phenomenal in the last presid t

presidential election, but there's a lot of work to be covered, particularly given the fact that we have these mid-term elections coming up, and we need a higher latino turnout for these elections. you know, you look at states like new mexico. you look at states like nevada. these are states, colorado, where the latino vote -- florida -- the latino vote is going to be imperative in order that democrats take back the house of representatives. >> you talk about the obviously political calculation early on for the obama administration was, look, we need to get cover here to pursue comprehensive immigration reform, make it safe for enough republicans to come onboard to get it through and the way to make it safe is say we're really cracking down on border security, deportations are up. we have to squeeze a break in here. on the other side, is the administration now sort of admitting that didn't work, that's not going to work anytime soon, and now we need to focus more on repairing damage, political damage, done with our base, with the latino community.

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so, perry, we were talking about how the first term calculation, even through 2013 for the obama administration was just do everything we can politically to give cover to republ republicans, it to give cover to people, the voters, claiming amnesty, touting high depo deportation statistics. now the 2014 midterms, a state like colorado where control of the senate could hinge on can democrats protect. you said in 2008, 2012 obama carried colorado. latino vote was 50%. democrats didn't win, it was a very tough -- much tougher environment. are you noticing -- has there been a change in thinking had in the administration about the

approach to immigration that, hey, we've to stop touting deportation figures, actually we're not that bad. >> the next few months they want to rebuild the latino community, emphasize he's not the deportation president. there's a proposal by durbin and schumer in the senate talking the people who qualify for the senate bill, the legalization, marco rubio and other senators, basically anyone who quaul fade for that bill would have been legalized and that pattern would not be deported. there would be formal deportation proposal, cannot be deported either, would be a change, would move beyond the dreamers to older people as well. so that's one thing they're doing. they don't want to gloe this up. if they think in 2015 there may be a small window still after the 2014 election some kind of immigration proposal passed, republicans do care about this issue in terms of 2016 politics, more than 2014 politics so they don't want to take away too much from the consensus they have now and turn away any chance of

getting a reform bill. >> gabriela, that's the message president obama is delivering to immigration reform supporters basically saying hold your fire against me. we need to stick together because it if we stick together, there's still a chance we can ramp the pressure to get this through. this year unlikely -- >> there's only so much the democrats can do, right? we have a bipartisan bill from the senate. extreme kfbs in the house are holding it back. i do think they have time and that's where this tension comes from, right? so all of a sudden i don't like the fact this is a broken system i have to enforce and that it's been how many years and these are the results but i'm not the obje obstruction here, the problem. i think the other thing that we're not fact touring in is right now obviously the groups are pivoting to deporter in chief and to making the deportation policies. come november it becomes a

contrast election. they have from now until november to do something, to save their face, we're latino voters. there are some leaders in the republican party that are really working hard to do it, to do something that's not just offensive, which is what they've done. >> the other question, too, i think this is from "the new york times" article, fabian, i'll bring you in on this. there's frustration, the acknowledgement among a lot of latino voters, yeah, the republicans have done nothing but a lot of disappointment as well with president obama and the question is asked, is there a sense, and what is your sense and what do you think the sense is among latino voters in california and generally if obama has done the best he can on this issue given the republican opposition that he's faced? is just the fact of this republican opposition 0 enough to get him sort of a pass, enough to get the benefit of the doubt that, hey, he's been trying to work around it, or is there a sense he could have and should have done more? >> there's disappointment in president obama on the part of

many latino activists throughout the country on the deportation issue, but let's make no mistake about it. the fact of the matter is the real contrast twren democrats and republicans on how they vote on many issues is important for the president, in this case, to pivot the issue, if you could, to health care reform where latinos have benefited extensively from health care reform. in fact, in particular young latinos who now qualify under parents' health care insurance. this is going to be, i think, an election that will be very, very critical. i think in the midterms you're going to see that pivot happen regardless whether or not the administration is successful in articulating this pivot. you're going to see it on the part of the latino community because people realize that in order to get an immigration bill passed, you need the votes and in order to get the votes, you need people who are going to vote in favor of immigration reform that's comprehensive and i think that, you know, you will

see that at the end of the summer there will be a change in the way people respond to this issue of immigration. yeah, latinos are upset with the president but we also are encouraged by a lot of the things that have happened in the economy. the president is calling for a minimum wage increase, for example. this is an issue that resonates very, very broadly with latinos and other issues, the question of housing, education. i think that there's a lot here for the president to talk about that ultimately could be very helpful in turning around those 14, 15 republican seats and m k making those seats -- tilt the scales on the power in washington. >> victoria, you were talking about the other issues, too, so when you look at 2014. obviously the story of the last ten years in american politics is two different he coalitions. the coalition that shows up in presidential years and then the older, less diverse election in the mid-term years. we're in one of those mid-term

years now. it bumped up in 2012. do you think the issues that you've talked about, do you think where immigration will be this fall that is going to translate into a noticeable jump in participation this fall? >> i am worried about the turnout in the midterm election because i think immigration is a losing issue for the democrats in the midterm election because there is that disenchantment with the president because let's go back to 2008. he made a promise and he broke it. so i think as fabian said, you need to focus on other issues, on health care, on the growing economy, to bump up the turnout there. latinos, there's no danger of latinos going republican in this election. republicans are not on the offense like they were in in 2010, but they're not courting latinos like in 2016. the danger here is latinos staying home. that is my fear. and here we need to get issues that motivate latinos.

>> i think that's why what i was talking about that they know somebody who is in the process of deportation, let that sink in for a second. i know that tomorrow somebody that i know and love could leave and i have no idea how to find them. that i don't think we can underestimate the power of that. look at 2010, latino voter participation in nevada surged. >> i think that's the problem, also. there are some primaries yet to be determined. i want to thank fabian knnunez forgfor getting up, gabriela, a member of the obama 2012 team. coming you up, republicans who believe it is time to start running on something other than being against obamacare. first, we have the very latest

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>> send senator landrieu a message, it is hurt iing famili. >> political attack ads have been relentless and in the wake of the mccutcheon ruling from the supreme court this week we should expect to see a the lot more of them between now and november. there have been notable signs in recent days that some republicans are starting to wonder if an overwhelmingly anti-health care message is still the way to go. 55 votes and counting to 0 kill the affordable care act but very little to replace it with anything. takes away a lot more than it gives in return. it's something. turned down medical expansion. many believe that's why his poll numbers are suffering. senator mary landrieu against

bill cassidy had been trailing. now the two candidates are roughly even in polls. the senator has not been shying away saying this week 7.1 million figure, today's enrollment announcement confirmed what i have said since day one. it's time for the gop to start talking about something else, he told the hill, quote, it's my opinion the affordable care act but i don't think it's the main issue. the main issue will be the economy and jobs. i think we'll win or lose the majority based -- i don't think we'll win or lose on one piece of legislation. health reform isn't going to magically transform vote nears democratic ones. kentucky's implementation of the affordable care act through

state exchange program called connect has been a huge success so far. the website has worked since day one and hundreds of thousands of kentucky residents have signed up. kentucky's rate has dropped by at least 40%. still, though, 49% of kentucky voters said they want to repeal the law. there seems to be a big disconnect there. mitch mcconnell and allison grimes, probable democratic challenge he, what is the takeway? joining us now from louisville is al cross, a columnist for "the courier journal" and director for rural journalism at the university of kentucky. here in the studio perry bacon jr. and kentucky native still with us you, msnbc contributor v victoria difrancesco. i was looking forward to the segment, talking about the battle for control of the senate this year and you have two of

the key races louisiana and kentucky and i think the democratic candidate is playing the issue differently. i wanted to get at what's behind the contrast. al in louisville, i'll start with you, talk about allison grimes running against mitch mcconnell. this is -- i have an element here that sums it up. we know mitch mcconnell is running strongly against the affordable care act and it shows a plurality of kentucky voters despite the success the governor has had in implementing it they still want to repeal it. here is -- this is an article, an npr story at louisville looking at allison grimes' position. does she plan to embrace the affordable care act over the next eight months? the not likely. it's a compliment to governor bashir in the state when asked, the law isn't perfect and does need to be fixed. something democrats and republicans should put together and the affordable care act. there seems to be such a disconnect here. arguably it is working better in

kentucky than any other state. this is a democratic president and democratic congress and the candidate for the senate by all indications doesn't want to talk about it. >> well, first, steve, the poll you cite was taken before the -- most of the publicity about the success of connect or kentucky obamacare. we haven't measured since the last surge in enrollments which is now approaching 400,000. so it's a little early to say there's a disconnect. and, of course, alison grimes didn't have to vote on obamacarobam obamacare. mary landrieu did. they have different approaches. the success of the law here will boost democratic chances, some s say. but that remains to be seen. i'm kind of doubtful about that. first, the people who got

insurance under obamacare are a lower demographic, they're less likely to vote. second, people who lost insurance or had to pay more, have a stronger motivation to vote than people who gained insurance. third, even the people who gained insurance may not be happy with the high deductibles and the narrow networks that we have under the new system. they have not stepped up and said what it's doing for people of kentucky. obama is too bad a brand for defensem democrats to get close to at this point. once they see some polling, we'll see something of a shift. grimes has to say more than she has said about this to look credible. >> perry, kentucky native perry, a really interesting story for yahoo news about this. look at how the politics are playing out in kentucky and you went to one district, correct me

if i'm wrong, the stop state senate republican who represents a rural district where a lot of people have been helped by this and this state senator, trying to get back control of the legislature, his main issue is we want to get control, do away with with the the medicaid expansion in kentucky. he represents constituents being directly helped by this. >> very strong. the republicans in kentucky, the state senate republicans as well as mitch mcconnell, go out and talk about this law every day. they are very confident thinking this law is bad. the key thing here is their view is in in kentucky anything that's called obama is going to be viewed negatively. obama's ratings are very low there. grimes, to me, is making a logical political decision. she is talk iing -- she is like the minimum wage which is popular. obamacare is so confusing. people there say the connect program is popular. connect and obamacare are not popular. they are the same thing.

a great job of framing it as kentucky-based program that sets up health care while obamacare is the bad thing over there and he doesn't want to talk about. that's smart. one of the democrats mentioned we have beshear here to, again, make the point this is not obamacare. we have beshear care and that's different somehow. a good approach. >> it just tests the sort of visceral reaction people in the red state like kentucky versus can they separate the policy from that. i want to look at the opposite of this now. in louisiana where you have a democratic senate candidate, incumbent candidate, mary landrieu, running for re-election. this is a red state. this is a state that voted for mitt romney. it's not a state democrats are expecting to be winning anytime soon. mary be landrieu in running for r reehad lex, jarvis, is touting support for the affordable care act. she launched a web petition, also apparently this week telling bobby jindal, the

governor of the state to accept the medicaid expansion that's part of obamacare. says she wants to close the jindal gap. it's sort of interesting to me here is a southern democratic u.s. senator, that in and of itself is rare these days, and she is fully embracing the re-election campaign. what is the political calculation behind that? >> i don't think she has a choice whether to embrace it or not. she did vote for it and that's clear and on top of that, mary landrieu doesn't get elected without the city of new orleans. the city of new orleans voted for barack obama at 80% in 2012. so to distance herself from the affordable care act would be distancing himself from president barack obama which would be distancing herself from her most reliable base, so she needs new orleans to win any election and to come out against obama care, the affordable care act would be worse than supporting -- worse than distancing herself from it. she needs the city of new

orleans to be elected. >> the electorate in louisiana is a very racially polarized electorate when you get into the deep south. it gets into when you get to the question of opinion on obamacare it's polarized along racial lines, too. i want to bring victoria in and have a few more interesting things on this contrast of two very different states, the same issue playing out. because when you buy the new samsung galaxy s5 on verizon, you get a second samsung galaxy s5 for free. so, who ya gonna give it to? maybe your brother could use it to finally meet a girl. your mom, but isn't your love reward enough? its not. maybe your roommate, i mean you pretty much share everything else. hey. your girlfriend. just do not tell her it was free. whoever you choose, you'll both get the best devices on the number 1 ranked network. for best results, use verizon. thit's not the "limit yoursh hard earned cash back" card . it's not the "confused by rotating categories" card.

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we mentioned this in the introe with the news of the 7.1 million enrollees, maybe we can't just do a deal with obama care. here is a quote from one republican on the hill. republicans need to be careful to sketch out a positive vision. if their view is too focused on obamacare, saying bad things, it's a dour message and not like

willy to bring over voters. in a national election, in a presidential election where the whole country is engaged in voting, i get what he's saying. a battle for senate control, this is a battle about north carolina, this is kentucky, will you will you, alaska, these are states that are a lot more conservative and a lot more anti-obama than america -- >> it's a different world, steve. as a token southerner at the table, when we lack at these aggregate numbers we get hopeful, i'm going to turn out and vote, or maybe i'll switch my vote from "r" to "d" but it's not going to happen. southerners have no problem separating out the two. i'm getting my health care or other government benefits, but i still hate obama. i still hate the government. i am going to keep on voting republican whether for cultural reasons, moral reasons, religious reasons. we need to be clear about that and not be optimistic that health care will switch people

around. >> mary landrieu gung ho for this but among other southern democrats, even those who voted for it not. >> her approach is unusual and surprising. she is very for it talking about the medicaid issue. you look at kay hagen, you look at west virginia as well. most people are taking the alison grimes approach. i voted for obamacare and now let's talk about something else. this notion they will campaign on this issue i think president obama might but, again, president obama is not someone you want to invite to campaign with the media. you'll hear bill clinton talk about this maybe. bill clinton went into great detail about how great the health care law in kentucky was. alison grams grimes did it not mention health care at all. it does not appear on her website at all. mitch mcconnell talks about repeal every single day. >> jarvis, i want to get you back in here. the other question about louisiana i'm interested in is

bobby jindal. in the news this week coming up with his sort of alternative plan to obamacare but also bobby jindal refuse to go do the medicaid expansion in louisiana. i wonder that aspect of it, has he paid a political price for that or is this the fact he's standing up to the obama administration, does that give him the political cover he needs? how is that playing down there? >> it's probably a little bit of both. we have seen the governor have declining poll numbers. at the same time it doesn't mean there has been an upswing for president barack obama. you're right that he has refused the medicaid expansion which would bring in about 242,000 louisianans and get them health care. his argument to not expand medicaid has not been persuasive at all in large part because it's so shockingly similar to proposals he has made himself.

so it seems to be a political calculation that everything that president barack obama does is bad and i'm going to stand opposite to that. but, again, it hasn't necessarily made people embrace governor jindal as of late but at the same time, you know, nobody is actually rushing to the president's defense either. >> and, al, i want to come back to you for a second. we were saying mary landrieu stands out as the only gung ho in the south. you have to amend that in the senate. beshear gung ho pro-obamacare, just implemented this thing making kentucky very aggre aggressively. i wonder if you could explain the story. is the story that i see nationally that this guy is nearly 70 years old, is basically going to be done in politics after his term is up, is kind of liberated from a lot of the political considerations that would keep other southern democrats from not being as aggressive saying, hey, i think this is a good law and i don't

have to worry about the politics so i'm going to implement it fully. is that the calculation? where did this come from? >> well, i think you basically got it right. steve beshear has been slightly left of center but still well within the kentucky political mainstream. and in the current political environment he's really had to walk a fine line. once he got re-elected in 2011 and is term limited, he was free to do what he wanted to do and here is an important point that didn't apply in many other states, kentucky had statutes that allowed the governor to create an independent exchange without legislative approval and to expand medicaid without legislative approval. >> that's interesting. i'm so used to calling new jersey the most powerful governorship in the country. maybe i'm going to have to amend that. a good case for kentucky interest there. >> here we only have -- you have to have only a simple majority

to override a veto. so the governor is not all powerful. if the republicans take over the house in this fall's elections, that means they'll control the house and the senate and put through some legislation that might very well pass. and that's why these fall elections are very important. >> new jersey still has the most powerful governorship, i take it back. al cross, jarvis, thank you. coming up the other headlines next. here at lifelock doing our thing: offering protection that simple credit score monitoring can't. get lifelock protection and live life free. but with so much health care noise, i didn't always watch out for myself. with unitedhealthcare, i get personalized information and rewards for addressing my health risks. but she's still gonna give me a heart attack. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. hi dad. she's a dietitian.

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...there's a lot of buyers for a house like yours. (dad) that's good to know. (mom) i'm so excited. still at the table victoria and perry and the writer from the new yorker joins us now. there's a lot going on. a change of pace here. first, if you're waking up in connecticut, you are seeing this on the cover of the "hartford courant." "husky domination. winning against florida.

uconn fell behind by 12 points early and then the rest of the way just dominated. shabazz nappier wasn't even the high scorer. at one point after playing kentucky monday night anybody got any national championship predictions here? >> i'm just happy wisconsin lost. i was telling you during the break. i'm an arizona fan and it was a bad call that led which is with which is to win, so that's my bitterness right there. >> it's always a bad call. >> it's a bad call and that's karma. >> so you were cheering for kentucky? >> i was. >> kentucky is political. >> i'm from louisville, a louisville fan. kentucky winning would be fine with me. their five freshmen are playing well together. >>s this the first time since the fab five that an

all-freshmen starting lineup. do you have a pick you want to release? >> when harvard got beat i lost interest. >> it's a huge statement for harvard they're even in the talk these days a. whole new ball game. the dallas morning news johnson library getting a new view about the civil rights taking place celebrating the 15th anniversary of lyndon johnson signing the civil rights act. jimmy carter, bill clinton, george w. bush will be there. >> and the president. >> president obama might also be there, too, as perry says. victoria, this is your neck of the woods. >> yes. >> it's an lbj re-assessment going on right now. interesting when you look deep in this article. medicare, the civil rights act,

but he's not regarded generally because of vietnam, as one of our more accomplished presidents. is there a re-assessment going on? >> there is and we're taking the opportunity of looking at the 50th anniversary of the civil rights act. civil rights act, voting rights act, medicare, medicaid all came about under president johnson. it is a time to commemorate president johnson and a time to look at how far we have come as a nation and also the challenges that are still ahead of us. we'll have president obama for the president speak but we'll have a whole host of panels, shameless plug for the lbj library, we're going to be live streaming all of the conference online. and i think it is a fabulous opportunity to take a look back historically of with where we have been. >> and lbj, it's been more than 40 years since he left office, now the library and events there. there's a story from the chicago try baun today about the future obama library and there is a

competition going on for where will the obama library be, chicago, the hometown paper there, to be considered the favorite, honolulu and new york also in the running making bids for presidential library. what is the key to selecting a site for a presidential library, rick? >> it's where the president wants it to be. it's where the president's library will be, wants it to be, that's where it'll be. i don't think he wants to be stuck, beautiful as hawaii is, way out in the middle of the ocean. >> i think hawaii is a state that could benefit from a tourist attraction. >> it could. >> not many people think of it. >> go that presidential library in new york. >> there's no reason to go to hawaii for anything else. put a library there. >> not just in chicago but contemplating having it on the south side of chicago, which is very under developed, lower scs status and maybe it could be a magnet boosting the community. >> that's a powerful statement. perry bacon jr., rick, we will

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one of the hardest things in ta talking about or reporting about or even knowing about matters of national security it is classified. what it comes to finding out what was done in the 9/11 attacks we don't know all that much. we took a big step forward in finding out. democratic democrat dianne feinstein voted to declassify the summary of its findings in the wake of the most comprehensive report to date and

a program run by the bush administration. >> the report exposes brutality that stands in stark contrast to our values as a nation. it chronicles a stain on our history that must never be allowed to happen again. this is not what americans do. the release of this summary and conclusions shows this nation admits its errors and seeks to learn from them. >> the move to declassify moves to the obama administration. in 2008 senator barack obama campaigned on this issue against the bush administration's enhanced interrogation procedures, waterboarding and sleep deprivation and called them torture. he ended the cia program and promised to move quickly. >> i am committed to declassifying that report as

soon as the report is completed. we will declassify those findings so that the american people can understand what happened in the past and that can help guide us as we move forward. >> now it could be a few weeks or even a few months until we get the summary of the report, but this week "the washington post" reported some of the senate panel's bombshell revelations. according to government officials familiar with the report, the senate investigation concludes the cia misled congress and the public about its harsh interrogation program for years. the cia concealed the severity of what it was doing. the agency also overstated the effectiveness of the methods and terms of intelligence they produced. told "the post" the cia described its program repeatedly both the department of justice and eventually the congress to get a unique, otherwise unobtainable terrorist plot and save thousands of lives. was that actually true? the answer is no.

according to government sources the report revaeld a new case of abuse never before disclosed. in 2003 a detainee was taken to a secret prison near kabul with where he was dumped in a tub of ice water, held forcibly under water and repeatedly beaten. this method was not on any list of justice department approved interrogation techniques. there is likely more, much more, to learn from the 6,300-page senate report. not everyone will agree on the panel's findings. last week before any details from the senate investigation went public, former vice president staunchly defended the interrogation program on a college television station. >> a strong advocate in helping to put together the enhance the interrogation program, some people call it torture. it wasn't torture. we were careful in all respects to abide by the law. we got legal opinions out of the justice department with respect to what we could do and couldn't do. >> cheney went on to tell the

school newspaper, quote, if i had to do it all over again i would. the results speak for themselves. a former cia official who ran the cia interrogation program wrote this in an op-ed. quote, i know it produced critical intelligence that helped decimate al qaeda and save american lives. staff members started with the c conclusion in 2009 of evidence ever since. they never spoke to me or other top cia leaders involved in the program or let us see the report. the cia will now finally get a chance to review the report and raise its objections. there have been sparks flying between the senate and cia. senator feinstein accused them of spying on senate staffers carrying out the investigation. we should get a much clearer picture of the length the agency went to in order to get information from detainees as well as the lengths they went to to sell the american public on them. here to discuss all of this, we have elise jordan, rick

hertzberg, adam, and joining us remote we have senator angus king, an independent from maine. they want to declassify the vote, to share some of this with the public. if you get your way, if that happens, if the public gets to see the summary, does get to see the conclusions, what do you think the biggest take system away will be for the public when they get to see this? >> well, steve, i want to answer your question but three quick points first. one is the context. people were afraid and the atmosphere was very tense back in 2001. we had 3,000 people murdered. that doesn't excuse what happened in any way but it does help to explain it. the second thing is there are lots of really good people in the cia. it makes me nervous when we talk about the cia did this or that. certain people did some pretty bad things, which we'll discuss.

we need intelligence in this world. having said all that, i sat and reread the entire report last week, the entire executive summary, the world's longest executive summary, 481 pages. it's shocking and, frankly, i was stunned to hear that quote from vice president cheney just now. if he doesn't think that was torture, i would invite had him anywhere in the united states to sit in a water board and go through what they went through, one of them 100-plus-odd times. that's ridiculous to make that claim. this was torture by anybody's testify nigs. john mccain said it's torture and i think he's in a better position to know that than vice president cheney. i was shocked at that statement he just made, and to say it was carefully managed and carefully -- everybody knew what was going on, that's absolute nonsense. if you go through the report, it's clear that the people doing this weren't being honest, even with their superiors at the white house, at the upper

branches of the cia, the office of legal counsel, the attorney general of the united states, the national security adviser. that's one of the really bad things about this. what they did was bad but then to misrepresenting it the way they did throughout a number of years, that's what's really the worst thing. and then you move on from there to say how can the congress trust this agency that they're supposed to be overseeing if you have this history of repeated misrepresentation? sorry to be wound up up on this but i couldn't believe that quote from vice president cheney. >> i want to play another quote from you, and this is from one of your colleagues in the committee, saxby chambliss. as i understand he did vote along with you to release this, but there's the panel's report which comes to a very different conclusion. i want to play the it and get your response to it. >> as we point out specifically in the minority report that

there was information gleaned from this program which led not only to the takedown of bin laden but to the interruption and disruption of other terrorist plots over a period of years. >> and it just seems to me all indications are the report that will be released will say, you know, there's no link between torture and getting bin laden. there's no link between torture and significant disruption of al qaeda. how can a senator sitting on the same committee as you looking at the same information reach such a radically different conclusion? >> well, the good news answer to that question, if there's any good news at all here, the american people will be able to make up their own minds. the report -- the essence of the 481-page report is a meticulous deconstruction of each claim, all of the major claims that the cia made that this was effective. and it basically goes through -- they reviewed 6 million pages of

documents and it goes through and documents in many cases was the information available from that witness before the torture took place? and the answer in virtually every case is yes. this isn't he said/she said. the american people will be able to look at it and i hope that we can also declassify the cia's response which is also covered in the more than 2,000 footnotes in the exec it tiff sexecutive summary. when did they get the information and did it come from the torture? i don't think you can say categorically zero material came out of those sessions. but the vast majority, as i read the report i got more and more angry because it was clear that the vast majority of the information from another sos or from the same source when he was interviewed by the fbi or the cia before the torture

commenced. >> so, elise, i want to pick up on that point then. it is basically coming to the done collusion the information gleaned from torture, could have been obtained without the torture. if people in the cia were aware of this, what was the reason for the persistence of this program if base knew it wasn't that effective? >> well, what i think is going to be interesting is actually when the report comes out what the truth behind it because as the senator just said, he thinks there are misrepresentations about what the white house actually knew. and president bush's book it stated that three terrorists were water boarded, that 100 detainees were part of the sigh cease program and one-third subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques. i will be interested in this report says otherwise. i think, though, what is most interesting about this entire

debate is that it's not okay to slap or to rough up or water board, but it's okay to outright kill, which is what the obama administration policy has been. there's been only one high-value target captured the entire presidency and drone strikes have taken out about over 2,000 militants and unknown civilians. so what is -- we are having this big politicize d debate with yo i think we're missing the point. >> and what do you make that have comparison she just made? >> i think it's really important to make a distinction. this is no defense of the drone program. but i think it's more to make a distinction between custodial treatment of a neutralized detainee, someone in our custody and doesn't pose a danger to anyone because they're restrained and lethal force on the battlefield. i'm not going to say that i agree with everything the a administration program is doing. how you treat someone who is in your custody is very different from how you treat someone who could potentially still pose a

threat and is still independent and acting on their own. >> rick, the justice department looked into this a couple years ago and decided no prosecution. what you are hearing about what might be -- what seems to be in this report, do you look back at the last two years of where we've taken stock of what happened in the wake of 9/11 and the revelations about the torture? do you think prosecutions should have come out of this? >> it's easy to understand why president obama did not want to go there, as it were, when he took office and open up an enormous political battle over the past. but that's had a high cost. i completely agree with what adam said about this moral difference between lethal force on the battlefield and torture. we have to stick to that word, enhanced ter gags techniques is

oorwellian phrase that is off. these methods we use are things we have prosecuted for as war criminals in a war where there were millions being killed. and so the debate, if it's framed around was it effective? if it was effective, it's okay. of course that's the hardest question. it's ineffective and it's torture, then it's easy to be against it. >> it sounds out whether we won't even know from this report if it was effective. we shouldn't have been doing it. >> senator king is saying point by point that it becomes clear in the report that the information that was obtained could have been obtained without torture. am i correctly stating what you said, senator? >> yes. it's not could have been, it's was.

and that's the essence of the report. the american people will be able to go through it and say here is case number 17 or case number 12. the they went through excruciating detail. it is an amazing job of research. 6 million documents, cables, e-mails, communications between the headquarters and the field and that was the central question in the bulk of the report was did that information come from the torture or was that information available to them and, in fact, was made available by the very witnesses in many cases before they went into the torture session. so that's really what the report is all about. and i think that's what, as i read through it page by page by page, the overall impression that built up to me was that the people who had done this were desperate to justify it and were misleading everybody. now i was about to say on this

program they were misleading the president and the vice president. from what the vice president had himself just said a few minutes ago, maybe he was more deeply involved than the documents indicate. this was not a political document. they clearly misled the president. i no longer can say that about the vice president based on his comments you aired a few minutes ago. i find that statement he made pretty amazing. >> all right. that's an interesting note to end it on. i want to thank senator angus king from maine for joining us. we will pick it up right after this. have a business idea, we have a personalized legal solution that's right for you. with easy step-by-step guidance, we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. start your business today with legalzoom.

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i just wanted to put a poll out there. it's a little old now, december 201. i don't know if public opinion on torture is polled that frequently. the use of torture against

suspect suspected terrorists who may know details about future terrorist attacks against the u.s., always justified, sometimes justified, i guess one of the questions i have senator kick was talking with about the atmosphere in the wake of 9/11 and that led to some of these excesses but now we're more than a decade removed from that. we have reports like this coming out. adam, i wonder if that will move these numbers or if this is the fixed attitude of the public. >> i wouldn't be surprised if the numbers didn't move at all. in just about 11 years, there's never been a claim with about the effectiveness of this program that has really stood up to scrutiny. despite the reputation of pop can culture for being liberal, that's almost a pro torture bias. you have guys like jack bauer. just an assumption that torture

works and also that it's sort of an exciting thing and that heroes have to do to get the bad guys to cooperate. i really wouldn't be surprised if those numbers didn't move much. but the important thing is that lawmakers are supposed to be informed and above those sorts of issues. >> that is a hard thing, i think. it's so counter intuitive for peel, the idea torture doesn't work. everybody has the basic assumption if you push somebody far enough they're going to cough it up, they're going to give you the details. i wonderer if there could be consensus in the country, the moral question aside, is it effective? in the wake of an attack like 9/11, the only thing people care about is is it effective. >> poison gas is effective. poi poison gas kills people. but there's still a strong sense when two countries go to war to

not use poison gas. this is an asim mymmetrical conflict, the terror war and the use of torture is partly a result of that asymmetry. there aren't a whole lot of americans in captivity being tortured by al qaeda. so i think that changes -- that's one of the reasons you get the plurality, not exactly pro-torture plurality but torture as seen as essentially just another weapon of war. >> so, elise, this report comes out some time -- well, part of the report comes out in the next few weeks, the next few months. what do you think happens then? where should this debate go then? >> i think it's a debate the country needs to have. i also think that we need to look at this report and i do think that it was somewhat politicized for all the information they analyzed i don't understand why the key participants weren't interviewed. >> the cia? >> yes, yes. and who have stated their willing ne

willingness to participate and be part of the process. so i don't understand why that critical gap was left. and i think that we have to just as a country weigh how this process has become politicized and try to look at this as a moral issue, as a national security issue and just rise above our petty partisanship. >> senator king who we had on a minute ago, that was one thing he was krcritical of this week, the report did not seek out the input from the cia and that's part of one of the back stories to all of this, too, adam, the tension between dianne feinstein and the cia, the tension between this committee and the cia is a big part of the story. >> i think in defense of not interviewing any of the people who have been involved in the program, the cia now stands accused by dianne feinstein who is not hostile to the intelligence community, of violating the separation of power. so i don't think a little fibbing is beneath them. i'll also say that people can

lie in a way that documents can't. i'm not quite as skeptical of the report's conclusions based on the lack of interviews for that reason. >> 6 million documents does seem like a lot. >> there's a lot of human nuance you miss when you aren't interviewing. and this is at the end of the day a debate about interrogation practices and why it's important to interrogate. and so if we don't -- it just seems like such a glaring oversight. >> as long as they don't use enhanced techniques. >> exactly. >> my thanks to adam serwer, rick hertzberg. joy behar is about to join us for the biggest story everyone was talking about this week next. then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more.

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of the hottest political issues of the time. >> we have tried to be as fair as possible tonight because everybody is up tight on the subject. the same sized chair, equal lighting and wattage. >> what followed was a 90-minute debate between the two men and it needed just that kind of setting, a tough but friendly atmosphere it to cut through the noise. coming up, we will talk to the late night legend about the relationship between late night and politics. mr. dick cavett himself is here. but when we put something in the ground, feed it, and care for it, don't we grow something more? we grow big celebrations, and personal victories. we grow new beginnings, and better endings. grand gestures, and perfect quiet. we grow escape, bragging rights, happier happy hours. so let's gro something greater with miracle-gro. what will you grow?

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bob will retire when he's 153, which would be fine if bob were a vampire. but he's not. ♪ he's an architect with two kids and a mortgage. luckily, he found someone who gave him a fresh perspective on his portfolio. and with some planning and effort, hopefully bob can retire at a more appropriate age. it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. news this week of david letterman's retirement department arrive first to the cbs press release t. came from former r.e.m. bass guitar mike mills sitting in on the night's musical performance and tweeted it, how we seem to get a lot of news these days. when david letterman started late-night television there

wasn't even an internet, of course. he talked about the phone call he had with les moonves. >> i said leslie, it's been great. you've been great. of the network has been great but i'm retiring. >> really? >> yep. >> you actually did this? >> yes, i did. >> wow. do i have a minute to call my accountant? >> it's hard to believe david letterman is about to turn 67 years old. they crowded around dorm room television sets, doesn't seem to have lost much relevance. he's been joined by many younger rivals, lots of them nailed jimmy these days. the late night market that has its sights set on young viewers. found the late night office politics interesting to watch. battling with jay leno for "the tonight show" job.

the next person in line has years of speculation. the person who might replace david letterman includes stephen colbert and neil patrick harris and craig ferguson. and then there are the politics on late night television. for years politicians and late night tv a strange but necessary symbiotic relationships. they depend on washington's antics to fill their monologues. no matter how they may object, political candidates all want a chance to sit on that couch to show voters a more human side. and when it works the intersection between washington and late night can produce hilarious, even culturally significant moments and of course when politicians are taken out of their comfort zone can make for a colossal train wreck like george w. bush made this appearance on letterman's show not long after dave had quintuple bypass surgery.

>> you keep saying you're a uniter not a divider. you say that, isn't that correct? >> that's true. now what exactly does that mean? >> it means when had it comes time to sew up your chest cavity, we use stitches as oppose ed opposed to opening it up is what that means. >> and there have been moments in which political debate is so prevalent it feels more like a cable news show like this exchange between letterman and bill o'reilly over the iraq war. >> i respect your opinion, you should respect mine. >> our analysis -- >> the best evidence we can get. >> this fair and balanced, i'm not sure -- i don't think you represent an objective viewpoint. >> you have to give me an example if you're going to make those statements.

>> i don't with watch your show so that wouldn't be possible. >> then why would you come to that conclusion if you don't watch the program? >> so let's dig deep into the evolving relationship between late night television and politics and i am thrilled to welcome dick cavett, a former talk show host himself of "the dick cavett show," an author and columnist. i'm joined by comedienne joy behar. she co-hosted "the view" for over a decade. the panel i've been look iing forward to the most all weekend, but when we got the news about letterman retiring, it sort of made us think about the role the show has played in political culture. we have the example of george w. bush on the show in 2000 and just in general these late-night shows whether it's letterman's or anyone else's have become almost necessary campaign stops for candidates aspiring to office, for politicians who hold office. it seems to be this is the

preferred way to sort of communicate outside of the washington media. >> and it's risky for them because some of them are dreadfully bad at it? >> the missions or the comedians? >> one of the first rules you can always see happen is that's an excellent question. they always say that at least once or twice. by the way, yours was. >> thank you. >> you know, a long time ago before vice president biden was vice president biden, i ran into him in florida. first of all, he's a close talker, which i enjoy about him. his breath was delightful. he said to me, you're a comedian and blah, blah, blah. i am more nervous about going on john stewart than about going on "meet the press." i thought that was telling. they're scared of comedians because comedians, first of all, we don't have any filter. 0 our edit buttons are on hold and we go there. we have nothing to lose so they're scared of us and should be. >> you're absolutely right about

that. i have this high tone theory that humor is complete intelligence. and how many politicians have complete intelligence. >> well, you just saw george bush. >> what you saw with him, he's on the comedy show and he's trying to be funny. and it just doesn't work. >> just show his new paintings. >> and he was funny in other ways like his humorous wars. >> there's that. can politicians be funny when they go on these shows or is the best advice to them just to sort of let the comedian be funny, play the straight man? >> they aren't supposed to be dead pan. richard nixon going on laughing and saying, sock it to me. you know, you have to just -- >> stressing the wrong word. >> make fun of yourself like romney it. maybe you'll show that clip of the top ten letters -- or letterman. he made fun of himself and that

endeared him to maybe 1% of the population. >> haven't you heard in the trade nicxon's appearance on laugh in was a huge help to him. what am i done? the upgrade on the diet coke conspirator like the president. >> there are still warmongers and everybody knows it. >> just being on a popular culture show, people saw a different side of him and -- >> yeah. his jolliness was not his middle name. always hoping i could get him on where he would say you're entitled to your opinion. >> gee, i am in when did that start? thanks for the news. >> when i was on "the view" a the lot of these people would not come on the show. they were scared of us, mostly me. still. >> you had some -- every few days somebody would send a clip, you have to see what happened. >> "the view" was a dangerous

place for politicians. i think they felt that anyway. we were fair and balanced, you know, i just ask the question everybody wants to ask. why are you running ads that are lies? things like that. they don't like that. >> you wouldn't necessarily agree to a preset list of questions or a specific topic which often for a news show candidate will come on just wanting to focus on one issue. a comedian has free rein and it's that lack of format that's dangerous. >> if you're sarah palin, and she didn't want to come on "the view." she said i was too hard to come on with her. how are you going to handle putin? that is my question for all these politicians. >> "the view" handled the politician guests differently than, like, letterman and leno. we have the awkward moment with george w. bush and i think there's another appearance that

was a little tense between them. generally on the late night shows on leno, on letterman when the politicians go on those shows it seems more like there's a little coordination ahead of time where, hey, i'll make this joke, i'll do a top ten list for you. your show was more they're walking into a bee's nest potentially. >> a couple times it was clear the politician had tried to find a comedy writer but their delivery was deadly. it was really sad. >> obama is good. obama is funny. president obama is good. >> he's show worthy. >> a comedy legend. >> working out her abortion circuit act. a list, 15 conditions for her appearance, and the final one was, you're going to laugh, i hope, there will be no disagreeing with her. >> what happens to the

individual idea? >> i took that sheet and wrote on the bottom, not only that there will be no miss rand. and that was that and the old bag never came -- the dear lady never came up. >> your show was -- you started out working with johnny carson and you got your own late night show. of course the carson show evolved through the years, but your model for late-night television was different than what we see now with letterman and leno. >> that's an excellent remark. >> it's totally different. a young woman last night, i'm doing a play off broadway, and she came up and said what would your advice be to someone like me who wants to do it? i don't have any because it's a totally new world now. it's nothing like what it was in my young day. you wanted to watch a talk show it was jack parr, jack parr, or jack parr and there was nobody else.

and today, there was a study that said everyone in america would have his own talk show. he was a little early -- >> he was right. and with the internet, everybody has something. this defensemmographics looking younger viewers as you were saying before. my understanding is that younger viewers are watching their television on their computers. and older people are watching television. so why aren't they raising the demographic up to, like, 50 and above or 40 and up? >> that's a good question. >> where does the assumption come from that young people have all the money? >> they aren't tied down to any particular product. >> that's what they always say. >> change their mind. >> we will spend our money basically on anything. >> i've been using a product for about ten years. >> where late night television is going. letterman is stepping down.

so where late night television is going and also -- >> letterman is stepping down? >> sorry we had to break the news for you. >> i've been out of the country for 30 years. >> joy had an encounter with chris christie recently. we will show you a clip from that. >> your favorite. >> this show is his favorite. [ male announcer ] legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses. if you have a business idea, we have a personalized legal solution that's right for you. with easy step-by-step guidance, we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. start your business today with legalzoom.

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[ apple crunches ] fixodent. and forget it. [ apple crunches ] and we'll be here at lifelock doing our thing: you do your shop from anywhere thing, offering protection that simple credit score monitoring can't. get lifelock protection and live life free. let me thank governor chris christie for hosting this event. he's had a few tough, tough, right, sir, some tough weeks -- don't look at me like that. you're scaring me. >> go through the cards. >> don't bully me. don't bully me. you know, i don't care how -- you are with these jokes. you can do the worst you want on me. i'm taking mass transit home. >> that was our guest joy behar.

a roast in new jersey for former governors -- not christie, but a former governor's 90th birthday. chris christie was there. just tell us a little bit more. he didn't seem too happy. >> somebody put it into her head to have a roast. these people had no idea what they were getting into. they don't understand it's brutal stuff. those were mild. >> they thought they were coming for a meal, a roast. >> i don't think he understood, also, when you're on the dais it's open season on you. they did jokes about me. so you take it. you sit there and you smile. >> joy, have you had any second thoughts about asking him when you step on a scale does a card come out, please, one at a time? >> oh, no. on that note, i want to get dean in on where late night television is going now in the wake of david letterman's stepping down. there was a lot of talk -- i

know when leno stepped down, i can't remember the article but a republican quoted sort of lemting that he was stepping down because they said the republicans felt that leno's venue was the safe venue for republican canned tats to go on, that he gave them sort of a soft venue. something like "the view" was a totally different ball game. with letterman stepping down, leno stepping down, for politics and late night. >> as were you saying it's certainly leno created a safe space for candidates of all stripes. and you see that being continued even on shows like jimmy fallon where you could have mitt romney slow jam the news and obama can do the same. it's almost incumbent upon the current hosts. they haven't cultivated the same kind of snarky personality that letterman had. they know that they have to run a more even kiel to get the really high-powered political

guests. if you have a perception of having any kind of political strife one way or the other that will alienate one side or the other. >> you need somebody like that. you can't have everybody be amiable. i will miss that, frankly. i need somebody who will take the politicians on, like jon stewart does and colbert. they are still doing it. not on network. >> your basic cable guys. >> cable and network are becoming increasingly indistinguishable. from a broadcast network standpoint you have to think about republicans in the audience, democrats in the audience, we don't want to do anything that makes us the democratic show or the republican show. >> do jokes on both of them because they both deserve it really. democrats have sex scandals up the wazoo. delighted when that happens because it's more material for us. so go there. and the republicans take their shots, too. that's the way it is. 6.

>> when the guests come on, this idea -- i think we saw it with romney when he was on. i forgot when it was, he was on one recently. they coordinate something ahead of time and romney comes off looking good. it was a funny thing. you're saying you want the edge, the host to make it uncomfortable for the guest. >> they should learn to deal with comedians. if you want to deal with foreign leaders, deal with comedians. >> they just had sarah palin on j jimmy fallon this week in a comedy skit. that's a really challenging book i ing. the only way you can do something like that, i think, you have to create a safe space where that person feels like, you know, they're going to get to be in on the joke as opposed to made fun of. and that's the tradeoff. >> try that on "saturday night live" and it backfired really i thought. remember when she went on "snl." she was terrible. she looked worse than ever. >> she is good at backfiring. >> when you say things like i can see russia from my house, it's open season, i'm sorry, darling. >> i still get flak from where i

said she has no first language. >> like george bush. >> what about this idea the difference between letterman and leno that the two sort sort of, big names in late-night for the last generation, really, that leno was the nice one who created that safe space and the appeal, and obviously won the ratings battle. he was basically always beating letterman in that. but letterman was sort of the sharper, edgier one, you weren't quite sure what you were going to get. >> definitely! >> which show was better? >> yeah. well, i don't know. i prefer the lettermaneese sort of attitude. i've known jay for years and like him very much. but of the two, i would prefer the variety of opinion, and letterman is so damn smart and witty, genuinely witty. not just comedy, but wit, which is rare. wonderful that way. stephen colbert has done one of the most astounding feats in the

history of television, what everybody said was a career mistake, don't try to maintain a character over more than three weeks, you'll be out of a job. and under that character, getting to know him, he is so damn intelligent. and so smart. >> that's interesting. he's being mentioned as a possible successor for letterman. would he do it in character or, if he wasn't in character, could it work? >> i don't think anybody really knows yet. >> who would that be if he's not in character? >> there are so many names that are really being tossed around right now. he's one of them, neil patrick harris is another. you know, you would like to maybe hear, you know, some really maybe out of left field candidates too. wouldn't it be nice to finally have a woman in an 11:35 slot. >> that's not going to happen. >> why won't that happen? >> because look at the track record. it just doesn't happen. and everybody's a male. they're all male except for chelsea and chelsea's leaving now too. >> amy poehler? >> amy poehler's not a stand-up,

but she could do it. she's funny. they're all funny. these women should have these jobs, but i think that there's some kind of conventional wisdom at the network levels that only the young boys are watching late-night television or something. you know, i'm not sure. but you've never seen a woman in that spot. joan rivers did it -- >> she tried it. >> it worked for a while and something happened, it didn't work for a minute, and that was the end of it. like, okay, a woman can't do it. another woman failed, so -- >> and she was going up against johnny carson too. >> she was on, what was it -- >> fox. >> what was she on the other day? >> she finally got to go on fallon, and that was the first time -- >> because carson like blacklisted her. >> we've got to squeeze one more break in. some final thoughts after this. k you'll need when you retire? then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need

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we have just a couple seconds remaining. just enough time to go around. i was going to ask, you know, who your dream replacement would be for letterman. i don't know if you all have opinions on that, or just in

general, cbs has now got this late show that's sort of an institution there, for 20 years, should they keep the letterman format and just find somebody new for it or just find a new show? >> what they'll probably do is they'll find somebody new and they'll have them sit on mailboxes or something and that will be the new shot. let's change the format, you know, let them sit on, you know, a tuft. >> you took it out of my mouth. i threatened to have a guest sit on blocks of ice -- >> that's good, too. >> how is it going to be new and different? there's nothing new and different. people sit, talk, act, perform, music, band, that's it. >> dave, who's the next host going to be? >> i want to believe that right now that louis c.k. is privately training with david lynch for his audition, as he sort of forehofor foretold on his show. that letterman was going to retire and he would be given an audition he didn't want. maybe that's being recreated in real life. >> he didn't really want but he kind of does want. we'll see if that happens. i want to thank joy behar, dick cavett, thanks for getting up. thank you for joining us. we will be back next weekend,

saturday and sunday at 8:00 a.m. eastern time. but right now, melissa harris is coming up next. on "mhp," the acclaimed coach has been taking part in a debate about race and politics. he'll be talking more about that with melissa today and you will not want to miss it. that's next. thanks for getting up. have a great weekend. ase, everything looking good. ♪ velocity 1,200 feet per second. [ man #2 ] you're looking great to us, eagle. ♪ 2,000 feet. ♪ still looking very good. 1,400 feet. [ male announcer ] a funny thing happens when you shoot for the moon. ahh, that's affirmative. [ male announcer ] you get there. you're a go for landing, over. [ male announcer ] the all new cadillac cts, the 2014 motor trend car of the year.

this morning, my question, why did an nfl team drop its best wide receiver? plus, 50 years since the civil rights act. and twitter activism, from cuba to colbert. but first, there is a great debate taking place, and we're bringing it to nerdland. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry. over the past few weeks, an important public debate has been taking place online about race, culture, and poverty. now,