this morning my question, is race the real story of the obama presidency.growing heroin epidemic in american. plus, hip-hop and mental health. but first, this week in voter suppression takes us to the ultimate battleground. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry.

over the past few days we've been paying close attention to a single county in the stay of ohio. cuyahoga county, the largest in the state of ohio, has been this week at the center of a fight over voting rights, and that fight has been over this single sheet of paper. now, i'm going to go back to this in a few minutes. in order to understand why we are taking notice of what happens with, well, this piece of paper in that county in one particular state, you need to know about ohio and the history with elections the. let's go all the way back to this moment in 2004. >> it is now clear that even when all the provisional ballots are counted, which they will be, there won't be enough outstanding votes for us to win, and therefore we cannot win this election. >> that was john kerry. the democratic candidate for 2004 conceding the election to george w. bush. the concession speech northerlily given the same night

after the election was the lead to the afternoon after election day. on the night before, kerry's team was preoccupied with ohio. here's how "the new york times" reported what happened. this speech given at 2:00 p.m. at the same site where mr. kerry kicked off his campaign last december came after a long night in which hundreds of lawyers and strategists here, in washington, and across the swing state of ohio crunched numbers in search of one last hope. john kerry's hope and ultimately his disappointment all depended on ohio. the election all came down to that one state and its 20 electoral votes. ultimately the senator went ahead with his concession because after that night of crunching the numbers that it was clear once ohio's outstanding provisional ballots were counted, he wouldn't be able to overcome the deficit to claim the 20 electoral votes and the presidency. that wasn't all that became clear about ohio on the morning after the election. # the delay in counting provisional votes was a bigger

story about election day 2004 in ohio. put simply, it was a hot mess. in 2004 ohioans waited in line to vote longer than anywhere else in the country. some stood in line for up to ten hours. a wait that led many would-be voters to walking away without casting a ballot a survey estimated 174,000 ohioans, nearly 3% of the state's voters were disenfranchised because of those long lines. the response to the ohio 2004 voting debacle, the state's republican controlled government in 2005, the republican controlled government, in 2005, adopted a reform called no fault absentee voting. to make election day less chaotic and voting more convenient. previously ohio voters could request an absentee ballot if they were able to meet a restricted list of exclusions. voters would be allowed to cast a ballot by mail or in person up

to 35 days before election day. including nights and weekends without having to provide any reason at all. by the next time ohioans went to the polls to choose a president, a lot changed. not only had the nightmare lines of 2004 failed to materialize, but fewer people turned out to vote in ohio on election day in 2008 than in the previous presidential election. but before election day, well, during that newly open 35-day window before election day, ohioans turned out in force. take a look at this comparison of absentee voting from 2002 to 2008. once ohioans were free to vote well in advance of election day, the percentage of total votes cast early jumped up almost 20% between the 2004 and '08 presidential elections. over 77% of those ohio early voters in 2008 were african-american. and in cuyahoga county where african-americans are just 28% of the population, they made up

at least 59% of early voters. those who showed up to cast that ballot in person. as it turned out, early voters were president obama's secret weapon in ohio in 2008, while he received fewer votes on election day than john mccain. the early voters, particularly in urban areas like cleveland and columbus gave president obama the huge lead that helped him lock down that state. so the president road a wave of early voting to victory in ohio. and there was much rejoicing throughout the land. this is where my tale of ohio elections takes a bit of a turn. a funny thing happened on the way to presidential election 2012. mainly mid-term election 2010 and another wave that brought another sweeping turn to the national political tide. that year republicans took control of 23 state legislatures and 29 governor seats, putting the gop in troll of state level policy in ohio.

and republican john kasich concerting a majority in the state house and governor's mansion. also riding the wave was republican john houston who replaced the outgoing democrat as secretary of state. and following that 2010 that introduced 180 laws to restrict rather than to expand voting and nerd land viewers who have been with me since the beginning know where the story goes from here. ohio's attempts to restrict voting rights and in pushing those restrictions have made are curing appearances in -- can somebody cue up my animation three -- this weekend voter suppression. 35 to 11 days and eliminate voting on the weekend before election day when african-americans launch the souls to the polls campaigns to rally the members to vote, ohio

gave my voter suppression. and john houston fought it all the way to the supreme court. i just that had to send him a letter. reminding him of the big "l" he took when justice sotomayor smacked down his request. african-american turnout in ohio increased from 11% to 15% in 2012 and that brings us where we are today. it looks like 2012. just months ago john houston announced he was cutting early voting sounds. and that was just before ohio governor sign twods bills that trimmed the early voting period by six additional days and made it harder to cast absentee

ballot which brings me to this single sheet of paper. he made it illegal for any other official other than the ohio secretary of state to send one of these to voters who hadn't already requested one. that's what john houston did in 2012 and 1.2 million ohioans used this application to request and vote with an absentee ballot. the decision is up to houston's discretion. he has said the houston doesn't exercise the discretion in future elections, he plans to have the county mail them in direct violation of ohio state law. that man, ed fitzgerald happens to be the executive of, you guessed it, cuyahoga county and the democratic jump for the governor seat in november. on tuesday he went so far to send a letter to eric holder requesting a jus ttice departme investigation into ohio's new

changes. ed fitzgerald joins me now from cleveland. so nice to have you. >> good to be here. good morning. >> all right. so help us out. ch what's the reasoning that houston has given for this policy change. >> well, basically what he said is they want uniform resumes across the state of ohio and unfortunately instead of taking everybody up to a higher standard, he's taking everybody to a lower standard. we said you go back to 2004 and not everybody did have equal access to the ballot because we saw the results. you had in excess of hundreds of thousands of voters really unable to vote in ohio. so this is an instance where there was a problem, there was a solution, and it worked. unfortunately i less get worked too well. >> you're not just staying that it worked. mr. houston himself very much takes credit for this. if you go to his website, it says in the first paragraph as ohio's 53rd secretary of state,

john houston is responsible for joefr sight of elections in the hotly contested swing states and will hire, deliver a smooth and fair presidential election with record absentee voter turnout. this was thanks in part to diz decision to send the first statewide absentee applications and reducing the chance of long lines at the poll ms on election days. why are we fighting this now? it's the top of his website as a success. >> he leaves something out. what happened in 2011 is my county said if the state did not mail those ballots out in 2012 we were going to. and we were threatened back in 2011, just like we have been this year. they threatened to cut our funding, remove me from office back in 2011. it wasn't until we said we're going to the justice department back in 2011 and they said, okay, fine, we'll do it. he's leaving out part of the history. now they've passed a state law to say it's illegal for us to do that.

>> 16% of all votes from the state of ohio came from the this county. do you think this is a partisan law rather than one about the quality of voting? >> there's one thing politicians know for sure. no matter what people's opinions are of politicians. they know who votes. they know when they vote. they know where they vote. they know when they implement the new rules, they know who it is affecting. it's not via coincidence these things are happening in state after state after state and the same groups are always targeted. if they didn't know, they've been to federal court before. every time we take the issues to court the could you repeat is telling them it's discriminatory. it cannot be ignorance. i don't think it was ever ignorance. certainly at this point they

know. >> do you think there's a se symmetry of information on this. always know who they vote, where they vote and how this law will impact the voters. do ohio voters know that information? >> not everybody dutz. not everybody realizes. some people have short memories and have forgotten how chaotic it was. that was not a proud moment for ohioans. we don't want to be known as a state that has a cay kwotic election. that's why the fight we've been engaging in has been helpful. # people are remember the history and what's at stake. >> is there any way to make this not a partisan battle. in 2005 it was republican controlled legislatures that initiated this no fault absentee ballot. are there politicians, are there civic groups, are there folks

that can make this about the quality of voting instead of rather dems or republicans will win the next election? >> look, i hope so. i think it's sad that we're still fighting about these issues in any kind of partisan way. we should have gotten past that as a partisan issue. i will say that for instance, we passed a voting rights ordnance and received support from organizations like the league of women voters. unbiased observers of this say, look, these reforms that were implemented make sense and they worked. so why would we change them? we have to hope that people are listening and following this and the folks pushing this agenda eventually get hurt politically by it, and maybe they'll -- they can approach this in ha nonpartisan way in the future. >> mr. ed fitzgerald until cleveland, ohio, thank you so much. >> my pleasure. thank you. >> up next, another warrior in the fight against voter

suppression. our friends at the ed show have the scoop on what nina turner is up to these days. >> it was very important we highlight in a real sense what it takes for somebody to come and vote. voting shouldn't take all day. you shouldn't have to jump over hoops and hurdles to exercise your right to vote. getting in a. getting in a. growth is gratifying. goal is to grow. gotta get greater growth. growth? growth. i just talked to ups. they've got a lot of great ideas. like smart pick ups. they'll only show up when you print a label and it's automatic. we save time and money. time? money? time and money. awesome. awesome! awesome! awesome! awesome! awesome! awesome! awesome! (all) awesome! i love logistics. two pretzels. put in on my capital one venture card. i earn unlimited double miles. not bad. can i get your autograph mr. barkley? sure kid. man my fans they love me. that's the price you pay for being world famous.

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this week my msnbc colleague ed schultz got in on the this week in voter suppression action when he brought his viewers stories about changes in ohio policies making it more difficult for people to vote. in february after a tie breaking vote from ohio secretary of state john houston, the board of elections in ohio's hamilton county voted to move its location from downtown cincinnati to the suburb of

montana erie. in 2012 more than 24,000 people voted and the latest move is making concerns that it would block access to the polls for downtown cincinnati voters who don't or can't drive. that includes 40% of households in the area who don't have access to a vehicle. to highlight the challenges of using the single bus route available to reach the location on public transportation, state senator nina turner, also the democratic candidate for ohio secretary of state took the ed show along with her on a ride. we are taking an hour and ten minutes. we got on the bus at 9:09. that didn't leave until 9:19. here we are an hour and 15 minutes later getting off the bus and now walking -- >> half a mile. >> walking to the polling place. this ises the entrance to where

the place will be but we still got to walk all the way back there. where are the sidewalks though for us to walk on? >> there are no sidewalks. >> joining now is an associate professor, nina perez, who is deputy director at the brennan center. president and ceo of the leadership conference. and a new article on efforts to stop voter suppression. so nice to have you on here. >> thank you. >> i want to start with you. as a reporter you get stories in local places. this is an ohio story. as i don't lif in ohio, as most americans don't, why should i care? >> first because ohio remains the single most pivotal swing state in presidential elections. anything that happens in ohio is going to affect that. it's not limited to ohio. what we're seeing is happening in other states where they're cutting early voting in

wisconsin, for instance. where they're adding restrictions on voter i.d. especially for african-americans, for students, for major parts of the democratic base. >> when we start with this week in voter suppression in ohio and you mention wisconsin, as mr. fitzgerald said, this is 50 years since the l civil rights act. also since the freedom summer. now i'm showing a bus ride in ohio. ohio was where enslaved people went -- i mean, that was free land. that's where you went to be liberated. when you think about the history of this, how does the movement of the voter suppression into places like ohio and wisconsin kind of change the game for what we think voter suppression is? >> see, there's a really good book i'm reading now about the end of the mo rat republican and how this e demise comes about. we're looking at the dna of a

southern strategy. we are all southerners now. and so, this is where you have to agree with chief justice john roberts when he says the mechanism and formula for determining where protection needed to be applied in the voting rights act was outvoted. it's true. he said it's discriminatory toward southern states. i agree. we should look at these nationally. the dynamics almost exclusively southern are now playing themselveses out. we've seen north carolina looking at the electoral demographics changing and them being as much of a bellwether as ohio is. >> when you think about strategy, think there's something brilliant about state senator turner's decision to get on the bus and take that route. it makes it clear to people who have -- also like we're all americans now and sort of have a sense of basic fairness.

once you see that, that just isn't fair. >> exactly. we love nooe noo turner. she's done a great service for ohio and the tennessee country by showing the practical effect of some of these policies that deny people the opportunity to vote or at least prolong it. no one should have to ride a bus for an hour and a half or more before they can cast a vote, particularly in the last election cycle they had a polling place in their neighborhood. the change was intended to have a political effect. the changes have to be analyzed on their own terms, in terms of what they are intended the to accomplish but to take a broader look on whether or not this is consistent with what our view of bhox dmox should be. democrats and republicans when they are exposed to those tactics generally reject them. they believe policies should encourage people to vote. not deny them. >> this is always the optimism

and pessimism side. you have the fire hoses and you have an american outrage about the dogs and if fire houses that helps to shift it. i'm wondering because we have to sort of generate a nonpartisan outrage about the restriction of voting. and part of what i'm also wondering is how do you challenge this? what parts allow for a challenge of these kinds of voting changes? >> well, the voting rights act, the part now functioning that a lot of people are talking about is section two of the voting rights act. i'm referring to an important in our national history, which is the supreme court struck down a very important part of the voting rights act, and the shelby county decision where it made inoperable section five of the voting rights act. that did not apply to ohio, but there is an important legal issue now that section two has

to do more work. because now when we don't have section five to prevent the discriminatory polling place and changes that were covered. we have to make sure that it can do the work that previously got more diffused. >> stick with me. we have much, much more on this issue and it's much broader than just this one state. none other than president obama is calling out republicans in a way that we've never heard before, and that's next. >> america did not stand up and did not march and did not sacrifice to gain the right to vote for themselves and for others only to see it denied to their kids and their grandchildren. we got to pay attention to this. ♪ [ woman ] i will embrace change... everything life throws my way. except for frown lines. those i'm throwing back. [ female announcer ] olay total effects. nourishing vitamins, and seven beautiful benefits in one. for younger-looking skin.

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people in other parts go to work. that's not a coincidence. it's one more part of our commitment to america. on friday president obama addressed a 16th annual gathering and devoted at least ten minutes to republican efforts to restrict the vote.

in fact, the president went so hard on voting rights that before i let him break it down for you, i'm going to give him his very own animation for this week in voter suppression. president obama, you have the floor. >> across the country, republicans led efforts to pass laws making it harder, not easier for people to vote. in some places, women could be turned away from polls just because they're registered under their maiden name but their driver's license has their married name. senior citizens who have been voting for decades may be told they can no longer vote until they come up with the right idea. >> well now we've been saying that. and there's plenty more where that came from. i have to let my table get in on this. were you surprised to see this level of clarity from the president about this issue. >> yeah, i was. i was in the room. it wasn't me. there was a real sense, not just

of excitement among the crowd, but almost a relief that this was what voting rights advocates and people who care about the ballot were urging the president to do for a couple years now. he was moderated up to this point. talking about it as a technical issue where we need to come together and figure out how to make the process smoother. now he was talking about an urgent civil rights issue. >> he hinted at it election night 2012. you guys stood in line. we have to do something about that. oh, yeah, he's saying it. but this time he just said it. i want to listen to him say this is not just a bad thing, right, as i pointed out. this is a partisan bad thing. this is really about republicans. >> and i just say there have been some of these officials who have been passing the laws have been more blunt.

they say it's going to be good for the republican party. some are not shy they're referring to those reasons. >> but also in north carolina, there was a pretty naked statement of legislator who said now we don't have to go through the preclearance process. we were going to do a photo i.d. bill. now we're going to do the full bill. now they have the package of the early voting cuts and other things like that. one thing i thought was really important about the president's speech. he was speaking to the administration side. he was speaking to the idea of the fact we need to make sure that our elections are run well. if the process is running well, he appointed a bipartisan commission, and now he's speaking to the civil rights issue. and our elections need to work well. they need to work well for everybody. >> absolutely. >> so when the president speaks, this president in particular, maybe all presidents, when he speaks on one hand, you get that

moment in the room. that excitement. let's do it. but you also know in part just because this president said it, there's a way in which the backlash, the return back to it mines it doesn't end up being a question of our are elections run well, but instead a deeply partisan discourse about the president was trying to push things. >> well, that's absolutely right. there's a dichotomy between whether or not he's speaking factually, accurately about the election issues and at the same time, talking about the civil rights dimensions that are part of the debate. his comments were factually accurate. the changes around the country are promoted by the republicans at the state level. but it's important to remember if we are going to repair the damage of the the shelby county decision, it can only be done in congress. if it is going to be done between now and the midterm elections, that will require votes of democrats and

republicans. it's going to have to be a bipartisan mix in order to gain that support. and so does his advocacy of changes at the state diminish our chance of getting the bill at the federal level because he's speaking in a way that turns republicans off. the truth is republicans at the federal level, republican from wisconsin rngs even eric cantor, the house majority leader are sending signals they would like to see a repair of the voting rights act and the bill under consideration now supported by both republicans and democrats would make a significant difference and we want it enacted wean now and the midterms. it creates a tension between how you frame the issues. how you discuss them. he was factually accurate. he did speak to a concern that st deep within the african-american community and community ls of color. the election administration bill

he promoted or the commission they established that made recommendations has done so. but their recommendations have not yet been dratranslated to a bill with a chance of moving. there is a sense of how do you motivate your own base to turn out for the poll? >> when we come back, we'll stay on the the question of the strategic when we come back. at this particular time to listen to one more thing the president said about whether or not he's accurate where w when he's citing a study about how infrequent voter fraud turnout is. >> one recent study found only ten cases of alleged in-person voter impersonation in 12 years. the people who try to deny our rights.

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argue about, but the right to vote. what kind of political platform is that? why would you make that a part of your agenda? if your strategy depends on having fewer people to show up to vote. that's not a sign of strength. that's a sign of weakness. >> that was president obama speaking at the national action network conference on friday. so that point that if your strategy depends on fewer people voting, but that is in fact some sort of the empirical reality for republicans for a long time. >> i first start by saying that i like the mixed tape obama. >> i know. with the red, black and green behind him. they wrote a really ground breaking book, balance of power saying the way forward is

republicans and democrats will have to compete for black votes. that holds true until the 1960s and then collapses under the weight of the southern strategy. but the question that you have to confront is how long can this work? this is not a sustainable long-term strategy. you don't build a majority on this. >> this idea that the parties have to compete. african-americans shouldn't all be in the democratic party. they should split up the vote so they have to be challenged. okay, i get that. but it shouldn't have to be the voters have to go against their interest. . it should be the parties trying to get the groups. >> policies matter. if you want to appeal to progressive interest, then appeal to progressive interest and make it clear you want their votes. african-americans are no different than any other constituency. they want to know you want their votes and you are enacting policies to address the issues. at the same time, it's very clearly packing african-americans exclusively into the democratic party, it limits their political options in terms of what we can do.

now, that's the theoretical sense of it. >> yep. >> the truth is we have to create a dynamic that makes our vote more actively sought after. which means that regardless of who is in power, regardless of who is at the top of the ticket, we have to turn out. and as a constituency, while we have done extremely well, as was demonstrated in the 2012 election where we turned out in record numbers, midterm elections like the upcoming midterm this year is predicted to have a falloff in the number of people who turn out to vote. and that can't be the case. >> if your election year ends in december, please god vote. you said something earlier that i want to bring to you that the idea of part of what justice roberts argued is this simply

needs to be not just about the south. so in 1965 the states could be divided into two groups. those with low voting tests and turnout. today the nation is no longer divided along the lines. and that impeerically accurate assessment of the ways in which ohio, pennsylvania was constant. if we go to the point by wade before the break, we're going to have to have congress to make a new formula. what does the new formula look like? it gets us a preclearance that makes sense. >> so the new formula looks at modern day violations. it goes back 15 years. you have to get a certain number of violations and then you get covered. it also allows more flexibility for courts. right now courts can only oppose the preclearance regime if

there's been an intentional discrimination. which is hard to prove in these days and age. now it expands the violations that allows the court to say this needs to be subject to preclearance. it's flexible, moderate and adaptive. one thing super important to keep in mind is the states covered by preclearance are the states that still have a continuing of problems. zble texas, north carolina. >> right. i think i would disagree with the professor that it was an outdated formula. and i think thisry will view that decision and will look at what we are seeing now in those states and see the local -- i have so much more for you. i'm going to see you guys in the

next hour. before we go to break, zach really has this incredibly excellent piece on democrats making voting rights a top priority. you can read the article at msnbc.com and you should read the article. it's central to the conversation we've been having. nbc news' kate snow is here with more on her report on the heroin epidemic in network. you're not going to want to miss this. [ female announcer ] late night? crazy morning?

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this week nbc news national correspondent kate snow brought us "hooked" k which looked at the increase of heroin addiction in our nation. the heartbreaking effects it can have on not just those who are addicted but their families who are desperately trying to save them. outside st. louis this mom is so desperate to protect her family, she's willing to break the law. technically this is illegal for you to have in the state of missouri. >> yes, it is. >> denise, who asked us not to use her last name, keeps those

viles on a dresser. injected into a muscle and it can instantly reverse an overdose. >> if they're laying on the floor dead, i'm going to save their life before the ambulance can. >> they are her son ls. ben and ryan. both of them living with her. both of them heroin addicts, sleeping in the rooms they grew up. denise sent them to rehab, but they relapsed. ben is in treatment because he's young never to be covered by his dad's insurance. he's been clean for two months. >> some of us have no idea what the attraction is? what does it feel like? >> like a warmth. like everything is all right. you don't think about anything. it's just calming. >> it's so easy to get addicted and so easy to overdose. that's what scares denise. >> ryan said he's lost five friends. >> yep. good friends. >> and you probably knew their moms. >> i can't drive by their houses.

because i know mine could be next. >> they've had close calls before. a couple years ago denise had to take ryan to the hospital after he overdosed. >> they gave him a shot of narcan and i've never seen anything like it in his life. she was pushing it in and he was coming out of it. >> the narcan? >> before she finished putting it in. >> i'm pleased to be joined by the reporter who brought us the series, nbc news national correspondent kate snow. i've been watching this very closely over the course of the week. >> well, the doctors and x-rays will tell you, it's prescription painkillers. so many people are getting hooked on opiates and any of those what are prescribed legitimately by a doctor or maybe they pick them up from friends at a party. it's become the cool thing, young people tell me.

those get expensive really fast. on the street you're buying one bill $50. here in new york you can get it for $6 for a little bag. so the economics of it drives people from when they run out of the prescription painkillers, they go to heroin. >> i listen to that young man saying his sense of warmth and everything being okay, i also wonder when we look at the exposure that's happening at the same time as the economic downturn. at the seem time there's a malaise in the country. i wonder -- these are personal decisions, but i wonder if it's connected to something going on. >> everyone has said they felt like they wanted to escape from their life. for so many people that's because they don't have a job or great economic situation. i think you touched on something absolutely linked. >> i wonder if there's something we should be concerned habit in terms of public health.

if i'm taking a prescription pill, even if it's illegal that i'm taking it, i'm not necessarily being exposed to other diseases, for example, hepatitis or hiv. once i'm injecting other than, the other concerns come about. in places like vermont, do you see them being concerned? >> absolutely. i was in portland, maine, at a needle exchange clinic, where if you saw the image we put on tv, there's a bin of needles that they collected just that morning, hundreds of needles. they're making an active effort in that community. and there's absolutely a concern about passing disease. >> i want to play another piece. and this is about vermont, where we've seen the enormous increase. let's take a look at this. >> the number of people dying from a heroin overdose in

vermont more than doubled in just one year. all over the state there are waiting lists to get into treatment clinics like green mountain family medicine. >> it's hard. the downhill spiral. it was so fast. i didn't know what i was doing. >> how many do i have on my list? >> dr. dean mckensie says heroin has a grip on the town. >> f a a while, you're not going it to get high. you're doing it to survive. you're doing it so you don't get sick. >> so my sort of human side reacts oh my god. this is a terrible thing. f but then there's a little critic in my head that says, the last time we did reporting around like an explosion of a drug epidemic, particularly around crack babies, ten years later it turned out not quite ads bad as we thought. the effects were not the same. # what all the users have said to us p when you try it you make a choice to try it.

you're now hooked on the drugs. it's a lifelong battle to get off of this. the consequences of everyone around you, for the economy t there are big consequences for vote. if we have a lot of heroin users. # to talk about drug addiction. i prefer that. we talk about alternatives to sentencing. having this human reaction, the sense of addiction, but also again kind of shocked there was so little criminalization because in other drugs we've talked about and covered -- >> oh, there is. it depends where you live. if you go to state of maine, they've got a republican governor who is very much cracking down. he's got proposed legislation right now to increase the number of drug agents in the state of maine. prosecutions are up. in vermont, that governor held the state of the it state and talked all about hoirn.

his approach is more -- he's a democrat. his approach is more on the treatment side of things and less punishment. there are people trafficking the drug. there are people being arrested with hundreds of bag in their cars. >> i so appreciated the series and your reporting. thanks so much to kate snow. you can see more reporting on america's heroin epidemic on nbcnews.com. coming up next, the discussion about race, politics and the presidential policy. jonathan chait joins me live to discuss his cover.

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magazine's jonathan chait. this week it continued on a new track with a cover story on how race has been the real story of the obama presidency all along. in the piece chait argues race always the deepest and most volatile fault line in american history has become the primal grievance in our politics. the sources of narrative of persecution each side uses to make sense of the world. liberals dwell in a world of paranoia, who has seeked out american history in the years. they dwell in the paranoia of their own in which it's used to delegitimize their core beliefs. and both of these are right. indulge me for a moment. inform the month following president obama's 2009 inauguration, i addressed a group of white southerners who supported obama's 2008 candidacy. one man said, ma'am, i've seen

the change. i've li lived in south carolina my whole life and always see black men walking with their heads down. since obama became president, they're walking straighter. they're looking me in the eye and smiling. obama made black people proud. now they know they can do anything. to which i responded, sir i think it's not the president made black people feel better about ourselves. i think you guys helping us elect him made us feel better about y'all. this man was no racist. he was part of a coalition that just elected the first black president. he was an optimist for his nation. he was attempting a sincere observation. but the problem is his view was obscure. he was described in the soul of black folks, the veil behind which black life takes place is a description of the barriers that make it difficult for black people to be seen and a nation that sees the aberration.

he could see past the interpretation of what was happening to african-americans in the south. what he saw as evidence that black people recently became proud of blackness i saw assen indication that black people were more optimistic about white america. for me reading jonathan chait's new york cover story reminded me of that moment. chait attempted an earnest assessment of contemporary racial politics. he is a smart writer. but he suffers for the same narrow vantage point as the well meaning man from south carolina. chait describes what he believes is the real story of the obama presidency. quote, even when the red and blue tribes are not waging the endless war of mutual victimization, the subject of race courses through everything else. debt, health care, unemployment, whereas the great themes of the bush years resolved around

cultural policy. the obama years have been defined by a bitter disagreement over the size of government, which quickly reduces to an argument on the recipients deserve it. there is no separating this discussion frl one's sympathies or prejudices towards an identification with black america. to suggest the bush years were free of racial discourse is to ignore communities of colors experienced foreign policy as race talk. interpreted the cultural divide as race talk and the demise as race talk. to describe it s a an endless wr suggests the there are no actual victims. only points to be scored by equally matched sides. this is best described by jamell who wrote in a piece that chit's argument is a story mutual

grievances between americans on the left and the right with little interest in the lived experienced from black americans and other people of color. it's a story that treats race an intellectual exercise. here's another party between white liberals and conservatives. chait may have been lured into the trap because he cites the findings of several well regarded social sciences who have for decades believe questions of race only matter to the political conversation to the extent that white people disagree among themselves about how to treat racial minorities. they cite findings as though it is settled truth. seemingly unaware of a debate of whites only approach to the study of race. trying to understand american racial politics while failing to account from african-american perspectives and history causes smart people to ask the wrong questions, to fail to interrogate their own assumptions and often to come to

the wrong conclusions. conclusions like this. that never before could only be true if you don't account for black folks story as part of the story about race, and i think that makes your story wrong, but as i was remined by a recent offering, the point of public debate is not to declare victory, but instead, it is always to expand one's limited understanding of our complicated world. and it is in that spirit that i welcome now from washington, d.c. the author of the new york magazine cover article jonathan chait. jonathan, thank you for being here this morning. >> thanks, and thanks for introducing your audience with such an open mind. i've never seen a television show where the host berates and rebuts the person they're having on the the show for several minutes before they're invited on. >> that's interesting. i did not mean it in any way as

a personal berating. i was attempting to address what i see as your ideas. we invited you on last week. this is part of an ongoing conversation that we jumped into it. i don't mean it to berate you personally. i do think your article fails in a really critical way, and it is for me the thing that i want to talk to you about. you said that you set out to write a social history of the obama years, and i'm wondering if in fact you feel you have succeeded in that. >> i'm not writing a social history of the obama years. i'm writing about how politics has changed in the obama years. and what i'm writing about and what the social scientists have described is that race has become more salient. i did not say that race did not matter prior to the obama years. i don't believe that. i didn't argue that. what the findings show is race has become more important to how everyone thinks about american politics during the obama years for the obvious reason that now we have a black president.

race is probably become more salient to black americans all along. but it's become more important -- it's become more forefront in the consciousness of white americans during the obama years. this is an important change that i'm trying to describe. >> jonathan, the modifier you just used isn't used in the article itself. the article talks about race becoming more important and salient to americans overall or to the american political discourse. just now you modified saying it became important to white americans in a new way. that seems to be a very different claim. . then you are acknowledging that this is really a piece primarily about white racial attitudes, which i think is a reasonable thing to write an article about. but if you're writing an article about america and ignoring the ways in which there's a clear count

counterveiling argument then it seems to me an inaccurate statement. >> i'm not writing a piece oobt the race in america. i'm writing about american politics. i write the important divide on this question is not between black and white, as a lot of people feared it would be. it's between left and right or democrat and republican. so these two sides, the liberal side is a multiracial coalition. so it includes black americans and white americans. but what's interesting about the way this divide affects them is it affects them as -- and so that's the focus. there's plenty of perspectives of black and white people alike in this piece. the way i examine them is how they vote and think as democrats and republicans versus how they think as white and black people. >> let's dig into that. so part of i think what happened for me is that as a political scientist, i have a lot at stake

in the academic part of it. and i'm trying to avoid doing that on tv. i can imagine that's got to be boring. but part of it is the research that you cite have also been critiqued often for exactly the focus that you talked about, which is to say the primary concern of the politics of race is really just the politics around sort of how whites disagree about race, and for not accounting for the ways that african-americans are not just part of the blue tribe. . but within, for example, the democratic coalition, are still consistently arguing with and having big perception divides between black and white democrats, for example. >> well, that's an important question. it's just not the subject of the story. i don't understand you saying i wish you had written a story about a different subject. that's fine. go write the story. it's a great subject. it's not what i'm writing about. >> i think that's where we disagree. for me, if you are -- that the model is misspecified.

there are hypotheses that don't get sort of laid out if, in fact, you don't think about that aspect of the story while you're telling the big one. let me ask you, i do try not to be unfair in the way your initial statement suggested. i always feel like some of the greatest lessons i've learned are from those the most critical of me. you are offering most recently shifted it. there was the pathology debate two weeks ago and then this. what has shifted for you at all? on this thing, there's a point i may have shifted or done this differently. >> this story has been conceived for months. i've been working on it for weeks. o but that debate came out

online and primed the way a lot of people came to think of me is. here's chait, the conservative enemy of us. and let's tear his piece apart. if that debate never came out, people would read the piece in a completely different way than they are. >> i will say this one thing. i don't think of you as conservative enemy. but also this debate is mostly interesting to me because i think of us as similarly positioned in the coalition. i'm always more interested in sort of those who are on the same side, and not that there's one or two sides, but who have similar end goals and deeply different divides. ch those are the ones i find most interesting. rather than this person is always against me. >> that's the unfortunate thing i regret. i got into what i thought it was an interesting debate about race and race in america and people

read this and said it's about race in america. and it's just not. it contributed to a widespread misreading of the article, which i hope people will read in a more open frame of mind. >> jonathan chait, thank you for joining us from washington, d.c. >> okay. >> stay right there. i'm going to take a closer look on how the president stalks abo -- talks about race. >> the white community, the path to a more mfrt union acknowledging what ails the african-american community does not just exist in the minds of black people. the current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than the past, these are real. they must be addressed. i'm j-a-n-e and i have copd. i'm d-a-v-e and i have copd. i'm k-a-t-e and i have copd, but i don't want my breathing problems to get in the way my volunteering. that's why i asked my doctor about b-r-e-o. once-daily breo ellipta helps increase airflow from the lungs

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we've been talking about jonathan chait's new york magazine. our first black president brought race to the surface of political discussion like never before. one of the first moments is when then senator obama gave a speech in 2008 in philadelphia. he tried to explain the divide in how black americans and white americans see each other and themselves. >> the anger is real. to simply wish it away to condemn it without understanding the roots only serves to widen the chasm of the misunderstanding that exists. to label white americanses a misguided or racist without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns, this too widens the racial divide and blocks the path to understanding. >> so there he is. . the soon to be president obama speaking of black anger and white resentment.

he doesn't use the language for either side of paranoia. and wade henderson, president and ceo of the leadership on human rights and associate professor of english at the university of pennsylvania. i found it interesting the language of paranoia and insanity that mr. chait uses to talk about race and mostly the difference between white liberals and white conservatives talking about race. the idea that if you see race differently, it institutes insanity or or madness. >> i have two points that i think will be a fruitful conversation about this. i almost fell off my chair when i read that. when i researched my book, the idea of paranoia itself is incredibly racialized. it's not just a standard symptom. and through the 1960s and 1970s.

the paranoia was used to pa thol jazz black protesters who were protesting against the u.s. government. so there's a history of paranoia that is in the political sphere. the second point is it's not really true. it's not just that. we have expanded conversation about race in the country. there are a million ways in which it has been silenced. fewer minority students on college campus and social science research about race. having a black president has ironically made it more difficult to talk about race. >> so this first point you made about the notion that paranoia itself is not a race neutral term. and part of the reason i want to get back to obama, which is an incredible moment of the man running for president and addressing race,.

and the i equivalency. and as much as i was irritated by his article, that i think also creates the false equivalency, i can see if you were just reading race initiated in the obama moment in 2008, you could see it all as an equivalen equivalency. rather than the very terms of the debate are themselves part of the racial structure. >> i wonder if he wrote half with his left hand and the other with his right hand to prove how even handed he could be on the subject. i think the idea of false equivalence. and there was an arrogance implied within this. and that's an idle topic for intellectual exercise and so on.

the deformative power of a social dynamic that shorten's peoples lives, that decreases their social economic standing. no, we're talking about our lives. that is what you're talking about. we're not talking about the exit strategy that he refers to. so making this between white people offended by being called racist or black people who experienced racism, it denotes a certain inability to understand what racism is and how it functions in society and what the affect continues to be. and so beyond that, the idea of obama and obama not addressing race and so on, it's completely metaph metaphorical that how many things black people experience that are racial thaw they don't say. so this is where people come from on the equation. a lot of things that that are

racist at any given point in my life. none of us can devote enough time to respond to it. that's all we would do. >> so this point is really tough one. there's a lot of academics at the table here. this question of how do we value, as a matter of any other lived experience. how much of it, as i'm trying to understand it, should be devoted to a clear eyed, oh, i'm outside of this. this doesn't impact me. therefore i can talk versus trying to understand it from the lived experience. i see this as an actual problem. being black is not sufficient for racial analysis. right? and being white does not mean one is outside to do capable of racial analysis. >> there's a couple of problems i had with the article.

the first offensive is using the language of stop and frisk to talk about the ways we deal with racial injustice. i recently saw a documentary and reminded of when clarence thomas uses the term high-tech lynches to use the term he's experience. . to use stop and frisk is problematic. it also alies the realities of individuals experiencing state sanction violence and harassment. the second thing about the article is the fact to be called racist as as problematic or devaluing themselves. so paula deen becomes a victim of racial injury that's as powerful and dehumanizing in the ways she was practicing racism every day as part of her power. both the elite and every day

black people. for me the ways there's a stalemate about race is because there's so much towards barack obama as the first black president, it's literally stalemated conversations about racial injustice and the ways in which black people are trying to organize the platform into the presidency, and the ways we cannot. >> that's where i want to start when we come back. that idea -- and this goes back to your point about stymying the conversation. in part because the person of president obama ends up affecting what we think of as protecting him. and therefore maybe not talk about the other issues. so much more to say when we come back. it's all about race. now what happens if hillary clinton runs? are the gender wars next? >> there is a double standard, obviously. we have all either experienced

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2014 motor trend car of the year. ain't garages great? jonathan chait landed his new york magazine on race during the obama presidency on what happens in 2017. quote, obama is attempting to navigate the fraught everywhere that surrounds him. it's a weird moment, but also a temporary one. the passing from the scene of the the nation's first black president in three years, and the near certain election of the nonblack one will likely ease the mutual suspicion. the new republic picked that up and ran with it, publishing a piece entitled the obama-era race wars are ending. get ready for the clinton era gender wars. >> perhaps. while jonathan chait's article has been a source of great controversy and we obviously talked about it here, it's really obscured a larger debate about the facts that exist today on the ground, and i hope we can

talk about it for a minute. when the president was elected and when mitch mcconnell, a minority leader in the house said his first goal was to make obama a one-term president. in the context of which he stated it, it was not a racial comment. and yet there was clearly a sub text involved that people of -- regardless of race -- read into the argument, suggesting that this person, and not simply drawn from the statement. it was the surrounding discussion. it was an ill legitimate individual to lead the country given his political philosophical views. later when a member of congress stood up and said you lie, previously that would have been never tolerated. it represents a disrespect to the presidency. regardless of affiliation, suld not have expected. and it was deemed appropriate.

let me give you two facts. first last week the foundation issued a report called race for results. it examined the status of children in our country across a number of factors, 12 variables that really affect opportunity in the real world. african-americans, 60 years after brown were at the bottom of the pyramid scale, and because of structural inequality involving issues of poverty, the lack of jobs, and schooling resulted in many problems that we've talked about. the kind of empirical day that that we have seen, for example, with a civil rights data collection set issued by the department of education last week, and here's one factor that really stood out at me. kids in preschool, african-americans account for 16% of the preschool population. m and yet 43% of children in preschool suspended out of school and one has to wonder, what does that suggest? >> right. right. children of color. >> right. these are black kids. you wonder what could they have

done to justify this. >> so i want to come back to that day today and the limited experience. on one piece here. f the example here for me is president george w. bush in decision points saying the worst moment of his presidency was being called racist by kanye west. and there's a part of me that thinks, great, i am happy my president does not want to be thought of that way. there's value in my president not wanting to be thought of as racist. but the idea being called racist was equivalent to the experience of living katrina and its aftermath, which is i think what happens in this particular discourse -- and so we just look at that great divide on the comment. 56% of white americans thought the comments were unjustified.

>> isn't it always olympic experience, though? the other thing that's frustrating is as a black person you are wondering when someone will take you seriously. this is what my experience has been. and then someone turns around and says you're like mccarthy because you see it everywhere. >> we're in danger of con flating privileges and and they differentiate between negative attitudes about, you know, when you see a black doll or a white d doll. and we're talking about the impact of implicit bias in schools and preschools. i think the danger of an article like this is it conflates prejudice. >> it speaks to the points that you're raising. because of the white supremeaga

them racially motivated, it's prevented. there's a cult of pride and protectionism that african-americans have enclosed around barack obama that has made it very difficult for us to address the issues that you're saying, right, because on one hand you have to hold the federal government accountable and therefore hold barack obama accountable. that's my biggest issue. when you don't deal with structures and practices of racial ine equality. we're not putting forth any agenda to deal with them. that's the ending that he said. when barack obama leaves. that's disappointing. we're talking about the every day experiences with racism that hasn't changed significantly. >> it seems like a lot of folks, including attorney generals who seem to have all the feelings. [ female announcer ] every box of general mills big g cereals

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this week it felt like everybody was talking about race. in austin, texas, four u.s. presidents all addressed america's racial history at the civil rights summit, marking 50 years since the passage of the civil rights act. one official spoke about american the racial history. he addressed a recent track record of actions that he characterized as unprecedented resistance and applied the actions, i don't know, might stem from a racialized disrespect. keeping it very real before a speech in the national action network. >> i am pleased to note the lasting reforms even in the face of unprecedented, unwarranted, ugly and divisive adversity.

forget about me. forget about me. you look at the way the attorney general of the united states was treated yesterday by a house committee. what president has ever had to deal with that kind of treatment? >> reaction from a prominent republican and my panel coming up after the break. makes it like two deals in one. salesperson #2: actually, getting a great car with 42 highway miles per gallon makes it like two deals in one. salesperson #1: point is there's never been a better time to buy a jetta tdi clean diesel. avo: during the first ever volkswagen tdi clean diesel event, get a great deal on a jetta tdi. it gets 42 highway miles per gallon. and get a $1,000 fuel reward card. it's like two deals in one. volkswagen has the most tdi clean diesel models of any brand. hurry in and get a $1,000 fuel reward card and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models.

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because when you buy the new samsung galaxy s5 on verizon, you get a second samsung galaxy s5 for free. so, who ya gonna give it to? maybe your brother could use it to finally meet a girl. your mom, but isn't your love reward enough? it's not. maybe your roommate, i mean you pretty much share everything else. hey. your girlfriend. just don't tell her it was free. whoever you choose, you'll both get the best devices on the best network. for best results, use verizon . attorney general eric holder shared his thoughts on wednesday about how he and the president have been treated, accusing congressional critics of carrying out quote, unprecedented, unwarranted ugly and divisive attacks. the next day house speaker boehner was asked about this and offered this response. >> there's no issue of race here. the frustration is is that the american people have not been

told the truth about what happened at the irs. the american people have not been told the truth about what happened in fast and furious. the administration has not told the administration the truth about benghazi. >> okay. so those moments seemed to confirm and undermine his key point. right? so it is both that tern general holder never said race. but it's responded to as race. but also i don't want to miss that when we say the pushback against the president's administration is about race, we do set up the argument is that is therefore if we just get a white president it will be okay. there is something important about saying no, the last white democratic president they impeached. the policies are more important than the bodies. >> i feel like among other things we've lost an opportunity.

the last six years and maybe the next two years, we have an opportunity in this country to have a complicated conversation about race. and we take other people's concerns about lived experience, about structural issues. this could have been a shining moment for us in which we had a nuanced conversation about the experience of race, and not just race as minority but also what demographic change means for white america and other issues. and we're missing that. >> i think you're right. the level of honesty that would have required. >> absolutely. i'm a psychiatrist. >> we need to pun pack. much of the societal buildup that led to this moment in time would have been virtually impossible to accomplish. i think we have the first african-american president. that is historic. he looks az his accomplishments

in a way that in my judgment reduces some of the achievements to a two dimensional racial analysis which i don't think is helpful. eric holder deserves credit, not because he's the first general, although it's a statement of fact. he deserves credit because he's embarked on a review of the criminal justice policies, which rp grounded in a racial dimension that has worked to the disadvantage. yes, of racial minorities, but also to the country as a whole. >> i am with you there. i think eric holder may be the barack obama we are waiting for in terms of that's the part of the administration able to work with the congress. but i like this idea that there was a possibility of emphatic conversation that takes into account one another. but what i saw on tp ground in 2008 when you went to the campaigns were a bunch of young people and old people of many

races who ended up in a room working together on a project. and i don't mean to suggest that individual actions and i don'tly don't mean to suggest it is insufficient. it did feel like there was a possibility. and that the closing of the possibility has less to do with some backlash for conservatives and more to do with within that coalition having a hard time getting white members of the coalition to listen to black experience as you can take it seriously. >> i don't have that same optimism, the missed opportunity. i do think the administration and barack obama is part of the disappointment. like the way he has dealt with race is part of the disappointment that people have. it's warranted certain conversations i think as a

person with a radical agenda, it's difficult to have progressive conversations about racial injustice with this administration. >> but this conversation is apparently now going to the green room. we have devoted an enormous amount of time, but we have to go. thank you. we'll continue the conversation and keep happening. let me also say, to the nerd land viewer who is live in new york, who may be riding on the new york subway or the path or metro north, keep an eye out on these posters encouraging you to unleash your passion at the university of connecticut. i know he's also been trying to convince the producers to let him stick around for the next segment but he can't because i have a one-on-one coming up.

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fans have been waiting since 2011 for this tuesday, the release date of hip-hoppharrell. here's a clip from the trailer. ♪ there are questions of gun violence, addiction and depression, and the pressures that prevent people from seeking

out help for mental health issues. the ol bum follows a message of self-preservation. so nice to have you here. >> so nice to be here. >> why this album now? >> just following the "war" album, i thought it would be fitting to come behind that with post-traumatic stress disorder, just for the theme alone. not just for the cool title, but to really delve into some of the issues that i was going through, to be a little more transparent with this record than i've been in the past. instead of just having metaphors and double ontondres. >> there is a really sad story of karen washington committing suicide, and i knew that we had you booked, and i wanted to ask

you about the so frequently unacknowledged psychic pain that so many people have experienced. >> you know, growing up in the community, you look at mental issues as, you know, we're strong, and my parents were hard working, and it's something that's looked at as a weakness, so you kind of push through it sometimes, not even realizing what the issue might be. and not until in my story with the album that i'd had a stint with the dentist and he looked at the cocktails of medications i was taking and he took me into his office and he was like, do you realize that this specific cocktail causes depression? and i didn't even realize what i was going through until that moment. and it dawned on me. and i take from that experience and i write about it on the album. in the black community, it's definitely looked at as a weakness, you know. >> your song "damage" is part of

a trilogy written from the perspective of a bullet. >> right. >> what does that teach us? what do we learn when we take that perspective? >> just from a writing perspective, you don't have to be the first person all the time. but this is my third time writing from that perspective. and this time, it's more outrage bullet, bullet has no caring, doesn't care what name's written on it. it's more maniacal and crazy this time, the bullet. so it also extends itself to mental issues with people with guns, and, you know, guns getting in the wrong hands of people with issues. so it all goes back to the topic on the album. >> we've been spending most of the hour talking about race, and our difficulty in having this conversation about race. i kept thinking to myself as i was listening to the new album, and also going back and reviewing your body of work, how might the obama years have been

different if all of us were listening very careful l i to, and taking seriously your work and the work of other independent artists, what would we know about race in america that is now out of the public conversation, or that we're getting wrong? >> i think, for the most part, with hip-hop, what's beautiful about it is for me, it's always embraced all of the races very easily, since its inception. i think that's what's beautiful about music in general. especially hip-hop. so it's a foregone conclusion that, you know, hip-hop embraces everything, embraces people in a very beautiful way. >> we had har i bely bell efon earlier this year, and he was talking about the hip-hop

generation to be socially involved. you had an early release right after the zimmerman verdict because of your sense of wanting to engage. what should hip-hop, or what do you see hip-hop doing that is engaged in social policy? >> you should be honest as an artist. i mean, for me, it affected me deeply, so you want to do music, and speak out and do what you can. and even be physically there, and active if you can. but for me as an artist, you know, i try to get these emotions out through my music, to heal, or somebody's feeling the same way, they can connect, or even spur a conversation about the situation. so that's just my truth. and if you're feeling it, and you're honest about it, then you should write about it and do music about it. >> i am definitely feeling the new music. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. >> and also for putting so much of yourself, the vulnerability of yourself at the core of this. >> thank you. >> thank you. before we go, a note about

next week. we're asking you to send us pictures of your little ones in all their best spring fashions. we're calling it babies in nerdland. you can e-mail it or #nerdland, or vi oh our facebook page. for everyone who took the nerdland scholar challenge, congratulations, you are now an official nerdland skoler. from countries around the world, people who completed the intersection of motherhood and politics. that is our show for today. i'll see you next saturday at 10:00 a.m. >> what are you going to be wearing for east esunday? >> i know. >> i'll have the baby dressed up like a bunny. >> of course, as always. thank you so much. good sunday, everyone. exit interview, outgoing secretary health and human

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