"now with alex wagner" starts now. when it comes to the aca, republicans have reached their latest stage of grief, denial ain't just a river in egypt. it's friday april 18th, and this is "now." their party has gone through the stages of grief, anger and denial and all that stuff. >> two numbers, 8 million in 2014. >> the president has his swagger back. >> the president obama tells republicans it's time to move on from the health care fight. republicans respond -- >> hell no, you can't. >> at least eight million have enrolled. >> are you kidding me? >> how many times have republicans in the house tried to repeal this law? >> a few. >> they're not stopping this this debate. this is something that unites their base. >> the law remains unpopular nationally. they're going to keep talking about it. >> even if republicans want to fix the law, they don't have the

playbook on that. >> the president says democrats should go out and fight on this. >> will senate democrats take his advice? >> we're not at acceptance yet. at some point there will be an interest to figure out how we make this work. >> we shall never surrender. >> we shall never surrender. >> let it go the oscar-winning cover-friendly song from the movie "frozen" is now president obama's message to republicans in their relentless fight against the nation's health care law. >> they said nobody would sign up. they were wrong about that. they said it woub unaffordable for the country. they were wrong about that. they were wrong to keep trying to repeal a law that is working. i know every american isn't going to agree with this law. but i think we can agree that it's well past time to move on. >> move on, you say. how about a big, fat n-o

preceded by an h-e double hockey sticks. #full repeal. and when republicans weren't fomenting the zeal for repeal, they were launching the latest round of trutherism. house majority whip kevin mccarthy demanded to know how many of those quote-unquote enrollees are actually enrolled? having paid their first month's premium? how many paid their first month's premium, but not their second or third? how many were previously uninsured? how many were forced off their previous coverage they had and liked? how many republicans are being forced off their talking points, that they had and liked? but, hey, if you don't like the facts, just find new ones, a spokesman for house speaker john boehner accused the president of hiding the whole truth quote, the white house continues to obscure the full impact of obama care. beyond refusing to disclose the number of people who have

actually enrolled by paying premiums, the president ignores the havoc that this law has wreaked on private plans that people already had and liked. translation -- anything that the government seems to be doing well is actually a cover-up for something the government is doing terribly. who better to lead the charge on cooked-up conspiracy than congressman darrell issa. in a letter to the white house counsel and obtained by fox news, the house oversight committee chair declared yesterday that he has evidence quote senior white house officials, as well as the president, appear to have been far more personally involved in decision making related to health care.gov than the white house previously represented. documents obtained by the committee showed the significant involvement of senior white house officials in the roll-out of healthcare.gov. surprise, darrell issa is demanding that the white house turn over more information by the end of this month. let the glitches go, hell no.

joining me now is political editor and white house correspondent at the "huffington post," sam stein, and "washington post" columnist, jonathan capehart. sam, we are apparently eight million people, let's go back to the glitches, because that seems to be what, all the republicans have left at this point. >> well you know, it's funny. obviously if you had said two months ago, would you get to eight million, none of them would have believed it. and they do seem to be moving the ball in terms of what standards are for success. i will say this, the debate is obviously not over. they're not going to let it go. but also because the implementation is not over. we still have to do the employer mandate which was pushed along. we have another set of premiums coming in the fall so there are aspects of the law that we still do have to debate. but the idea that we're going to repeal it at this juncture is silly. >> well the idea that we're going back to glitches, that darrell issa, jonathan, is

relitigating the case that the -- it is relitigating october. because that was obviously the low point for this law. and obviously the low point for this administration and darrell issa is going to go back and find as much paper as darrell issa possibly can and use it as sort of a witch hunt as darrell issa does. >> and other thing that darrell issa does is that he selectively puts out the information that he thinks will bolster his case. meanwhile when you take a look at all the other information that's out there. his case falls apart. the fact that we were going back to healthcare.gov shows how desperate they are to keep the conversation going. yes, the roll had been out of healthcare.gov was a disaster. the president knows it, kathleen sebelius knows it everyone knows it but the only problem is that affordable care act is much much bigger than a website and many of the provisions have been up and running for a long time now. and if republicans, darrell issa want to you know go through the

motions of repealing a law that has made it possible for parents to keep their kids on their insurance until they're 26. no caps on care, no denial of insurance based on your preexisting conditions, then let them have the sr. at it. then they can deal with the hell they'll have to pay from people who have been benefitting from this law for a while now. >> well i actually do see a legitimate point of oversight in this respect. we want to know how much we spend on that. we want to know why our preku t procurement process was so faulty and make sure we don't do something that badly ever again. but you were looking at this correctly in the context of they want to go back to the bad and not focus on the good. i think that jonathan makes a good point, we don't need to go back there any more. we should look forward there are definitely parts of the law that can be improved. why we shouldn't have to relitigate the bad parts, we should investigate them. but i don't think we are going to have to relitigate.

>> darrell issa, this man has a history at this point. of partisan attacks, and not actually conducting any true meaningful reforms. i want to get to the trutherism and the things that the republicans are focusing on at the white house has not yet divulged. there are two pieces, one is the number of people above eight million who bought insurance for the first time. that's not a number collected by the u.s. government. also want to know, the number of people who paid their initial premiums, that is a statistics that is between an individual and an insurance company. the whole time, republicans have been very angry, about the involvement of the federal government in the relationship a person has between their insurance company and their drxt and now they're indignant that the white house has not brokered that. >> on the number of people who have paid their first month's premium. if you look at the most skeptical way possible and said that 20% haven't done it, at

that point you have 6.4 million people who have enrolled, that's not an insignificant number, that's a big number. with respect to the people buying health care for the first time, yes the part of the law was to get people to sign up for the first time. the uninsured could sign up by buying health care plans outside of the exchange. one point that bothers me is that people have who insurance prior to obamacare and sign up through exchange could sign up for obamacare successors. of could have left your job when you were 60 and said i don't want to be on employer health care any more. i want to retire early, i don't have health care, oh, i do. it doesn't mean they're not a success story. >> the other weird part of this incredibly circuitous logic, is the aca is demanding coverage for people, and good coverage.

they keep talking about plans people had and liked. at the same time that the republican legislatures and republican governors are denying medicaid coverage to five million people it seems hard to make an argument about the need for good health care and argue that only in certain cases. >> right. that's a very good point. and this is where i think, it's going to happen in the mid-term, in the mid-term elections, democrats will be hit hard by republicans for the support of the affordable care act. they'll try to hang it around their necks and that particular point, along with the point that sam just made about the people who have gotten cheaper insurance because of the affordable care act, those are the sorts of arguments that the democrats are going to have to make to push back against the republican attacks. what i find so bothersome about what's happening within the republican party on this issue, is that a long time ago, when the nation, when congress passed something this big, they did it in a bipartisan fashion. and if there were problems about it, people complained about it.

but they worked, republicans in the old days from what i remember as a kid, would have worked really, really hard to improve the law so that they could take credit for improving the law that they viewed as flawed. and damaged. that was put in by the democrats in this democratic president, and instead what they're doing is trying to repeal it, junk it. and in the meantime throw off health insurance, millions of, millions of people who have been able to get health insurance for the first time, get better health insurance and keep their kids on their insurance coverage. it's baffling to me that the republican party would allow themselves to be viewed as, as this kind of party. this heartless party. >> i wonder, sam, what you think happens with democrats in terms of messages on the aca. the president said yesterday, we shouldn't be defensive about it. there's a strong, good, right story to tell. mark begich in alaska, i don't think we have time to play the full ad. he has an ad right now talking about someone who was able to be

to beat cancer and able to get insurance coverage because he was not denied coverage because of a preexisting condition. that seems like a grassshoot if you will, perhaps. >> there are places where it works. for instance, in west virginia. a house, this house superpac for democrats has been running a pro oba obamacare ad. my best guess from talking with strategists is they're going to let it recede as an issue. health care, if you look at any poll, is now moving down in terms of the importance for people. in terms of what issues they care about the most. it's the economy, it's jobs, sometimes deficit. but health care is moving down. i think in some respects, that's a win for democrats, it could have been a lot worse. >> i'll say in closing as many as 17,000 americans will die as a result of states not deciding to expand medicaid. i intend on saying that every day that we talk about the aca. these are, this is human life we're talking about. sam stein and jonathan capehart. thank you for your time, my

friends. after the break, supposedly, there's a deal to help defuse the crisis in the ukraine. if you listen to vladimir putin and his talk about the new russia, you wouldn't necessarily know it the "new republic"'s julia jaffe joins me next. ♪ she can print amazing things, right from her computer. [ whirring ] [ train whistle blows ] she makes trains that are friends with trees. ♪ my mom works at ge. ♪

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24 hours after an agreement was reached in geneva to deescalate the crisis in ukraine, there appears to be no end in sight or at least not yet. yesterday's deal brokered by the u.s., russia urks crane and the eu called for pro russian protesters to surrender their weapons an vacate the buildings they've been occupying for as many as two weeks in eastern ukraine. in exchange, the ukrainian government would theoretically provide the separatists with

amnesty. but while diplomats sketched out that agreement, russian president vladimir putin not surprisingly was striking a different chord. speaking to reporters on national tv, putin wouldn't rule out sending russian troops into ukraine, and referred to eastern ukraine as, novo rosia, or new russia. it refers to parts of eastern ukraine that were won from the ottoman empire in the 18th century. given putin's ahem, territorial stance on things after the diplomatic deal was announced, president obama was understandably skeptical. >> my hope is that we actually do see follow-through over the next several days. but i don't think given past performance, that we can count on that. and we have to be prepared to potentially respond to what continue to be efforts of interference by the russians in eastern and southern ukraine. >> so far in ukraine, there is

no evidence that the pro russian militants are ready to disarm. today the leader of a group of pro russian separatists said he would ignore the agreement, telling the leaders that russia did not sign anything for us. and yesterday the region saw one of the deadliest fights since the crisis began when a firefight between separatists and the ukrainian army left three dead. joining me now is a senior editor at the "new republic" julia jaffe. julia, the president sounded skeptical yesterday about the deal that secretary kerry hashed out and today we're hearing word from the administration that they may impose sanctions as early as next week. this would seem to take the wind out of the sails considerably for diplomacy. >> yeah, although the americans aren't the only ones taking the wind out of the sails. so you had earlier today, you had like you mentioned, the pro russian lead anywhere donetsk, who just rules one group of

rebel who is says he's not party to the agreement, he's not going to abide by it the russian foreign ministry came out and said, when we said illegal groups need to disarm, we meant the people in kiev, the pro western demonstrators in kiev. we don't even agree here on what, the definitions of things we're talking about. so i mean it's amazing, less than 24 hours later, it's just a piece of paper. >> julia, how do you read putin's mention of novo rosia. which is a reference to the 18th century. what does that signal in your mind? >> it signals that he still you know, despite the agreement, he still sees russia as having historical claims to this land. and you know, saying that, that russia can invade whenever it wants because he has, he has requested and gotten this permission from the upper chamber of russian parliament. which kind of set off the crisis to begin with. he's basically leaving all

options on the table. this is very, very classically putin. he needs, he likes having not closing any doors and leaving himself plenty of room to maneuver. it doesn't mean he'll annex this region. but it doesn't mean he won't annex this region. only time will tell. >> and that underscores how difficult this diplomacy has been. i want to read an excerpt from david ignatius in the "washington post" who talks a little bit about putin's character and says it is not clear whether putin sees himself as a czar or the game keeper when he's photographed hunting tigers or shooting whale was crossbow or going bare-chested when fishing or riding horses, but he's evidently a man with something to prove. confident and insecure at the same time. that was sort of an excuse for to us show you a photo of vladimir putin, there it is. but it does underscore the difference between these two leaders, which is something david also points out in the story. the president is not someone who would ever be shirtless on horseback in front of cameras or no. >> he was shirtless once on a

beach, shortly after the election. >> the beach being different than horseback riding. but in terms of character and in terms of demeanor and posture, i mean this president and the russian president are pretty diametrically opposed. would you agree with that contention? >> absolutely. they're very different, very different leadership styles. obama thinks so much he tends to overthink things and he's very slow and deliberative and likes to work on things in the margins. whereas and is pretty strategic. whereas putin is not so much strategic as he is tactical. he tends to decide things at the spur of the moment. he tends to be a reactive man. so i don't know for example that he had these plans to annex parts of ukraine before. but he clearly spotted some opportunity you know, after the, after viktor yanukovych, the ukrainian president, was forced from power and went in and took it. and what you see for example is with crimea, he took crimea.

he annexed crimea. and it turns out he has no way to supply it with water, with electricity, with food. and it turns out he has to spend billions and billions of dollars building a bridge to the peninsula. because the only piece of land connecting it to the mainland is ukraine. so he doesn't think these things through. whereas, that's very unlike obama. >> yeah, it's worth mentioning, ukraine was not in a good place before this started. i believe they owed russia more than $2 billion in gas debt. the economy is expected to shrink by at least 3% this year. even if we, a diplomatic solution is arrived at, there is still a huge question mark that hangs over ukraine's future. >> i was going to say that this is kind of, it's a self-perpetuating or self-fulfilling prophesy. right. the longer putin keeps meddling in the region and sending in these kind of undercover agents

to sew chaos in the ukraine, the longer kiev postpones really crucial political and economic reforms that could improve the situation. >> julia ioffe, thank you for your time and thoughts. >> sure. coming up today, edward snowden is explaining his controversial call into a live television show. where he asked vladimir putin a question about russia's surveillance tactics. and now the u.s. supreme court indicates that it would like to join that conversation. details, next.

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it has been a big week for the nsa. on monument the pulitzer prize was awarded to journalists at the "washington post" and the "guardian" for their coverage of the edward snowden leaks. and yesterday, supreme court justices antonin scalia and ruth bader ginsberg made it clear that the supreme court would eventually take up nsa surveillance programs. the justices' comments came

hours after edward snowden made a surprise appearance during vladimir putin's annual call-in show on russian state tv. >> i would like to ask a question about online communication. i've seen little public discussion of russia's own involvement in surveillance. i would like to ask you, does russia intercept, store or analyze in any way the communications of millions of individuals. >> to which putin responded, you're a former agent, i used to be part of the secret services, let's talk as peers, you know, spy to spy, heart to heart. as for putin's answer to snowden's question, russia, putin said, does not conduct widespread mass surveillance on its population because the country quote does not have as much money and devices as the u.s. he further told his audience, not to fear, because russia's secret services are under the strict control of the government and regulated by law. after facing criticism for his appearance on russian state tv,

today mr. snowden defended that decision in an op-ed in the "guardian" snowden wrote, yesterday was tend sbended to mirror an infamous exchange and to invite an important concession or a clear evasion. snowden made no mention of putin's human rights abuses, systemic targeting and intimidation of journalists and recent invasion of a sovereign country, but perhaps that's all for next year's call-in show. ahead, clive bundy has become a folk hero for conservative activists who don't like big government or apparently the rule of law. is he the beginning of a movement? ng the future is a pretty difficult thing to do. but, manufacturing in the united states means advanced technology. we learned that technology allows us to be craft oriented.

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television set is familiar with the story of cliven bundy. the nevada cattle rancher who stopped paying grazing fees on federal land in 1993 rand now owes the government more than $1 million. bundy's cause, he refuses to acknowledge the existence of the federal government. has attracted militia members and anti-government fringes and it is won him the adoration of the conservative media for the zealot who is have been ready to take up arms against the people who collect land fees, even the slightest provocation has been cause for concern. but that did not stop senate majority leader, harry reid, from calling it like he sees it. >> these people who hold themselves out to be patriots are not. they're nothing more than domestic terrorists. >> naturally bundy's media defenders were shocked and outraged. >> this is a fox news alert. the most powerful democrat in congress has officially stepped

way over the line. >> so harry reid has stepped way over the line. not the man who has cheated the system for 20 years and has surrounded his ranch with an army of militia members. the indignation here is reserved for harry reid. and his imagined private army. >> harry get your army out of nevada. get your army away from my ranch clark county public land and keep it out. and if they come, we'll deal with them tonight if that's what we got to do, we'll just deal with you. wh when you got guts enough to do it come on. >> how has this happened? it's happened because this is about america. that's why. and america where citizens don't pay taxes and militia members threaten federal officers with guns. >> this is as american pie as you can get. and i think that will relate to the average american person. maybe we can wake people up. this is a righteous cause as far as i'm concerned. i'm willing to lay my life down.

>> what was your breaking point? >> when i saw the video on youtube of the blm tazing people and getting way over-aggressive. doing things that were way out of line? >> we're a different breed out here. we're not going to let that happen. >> no, we won't. this is the wild west. >> this is the wild west. well, the blm has backed off and is searching for administrative and judicial options. "reuters" reports that after the standoff, emboldened militias are asking, where next. bundy's supporters are talking about where else they can exercise armed defiance and right-wing websites have been begun searching for other bundys. other bundys. because this chapter in american life where people break the law and threaten bloodshed is to be celebrated? >> when you first saw the cattle coming out, what was going through your mind? what were you feeling? >> just very, just pride. pride, american pride. you know, felt like i was part of something extremely special. >> american pride for an american hero, who happens to be

a gun-toting tax cheat. joining me now is nevada journalist and host of "ralston reports" john ralston. thanks for joining me. this case has fast ited the country, and it seems to be, it involves two things or at least this is what we have assessed it. one is a certain level of identity politics. but the other thing that it touches on is, what one journalist has called wai eed w mania, you should be able to opt out of parts of the law we don't like. we see it with the hobby lobby case with the supreme court and certain parts of the legislation that's made it way to the arizona state house. this has happened across the country. would you agree with that? >> i think to some extent that's correct. the thing that bothers me the most about this is that he is is being put up as a symbol of something that he's not. as you laid out earlier.

this guy is a law-breaker, an outlaw, a welfare cowboy. he's gotten away with murder for 20 years, he's done things that no law-abiding, to use the rhetoric of the, of those who would often be on the right and use this guy as a champion, what other law-abiding ranchers would not do. he's refused to pay a government which he now says does not exist. and what's worse alex, beyond the fact that you have the right wing talk radio blogosphere going nuts making this guy into something he's not. it's the politicians here who are really enabling this guy. i just came from watching senator dean heller, the republican senator, call those folks who are up there fomenting an armed insurrection, patriots. they're not patriots, they're deluded by something that doesn't exist up there. which is a guy breaking the law. so this is the case of creating a narrative, but it's a false narrative. >> john, just an hour ago, harry

reid doubled down on his assessment that these are domestic terrorists. what in your mind does this do to the stakes in nevada? i would think that would cause those who are supporters of bundy to dig their heels in even further. how do you read that? >> i think you're absolutely right. but there's two things going on. first of all, harry reid is a very polarizing figure. conservatives hate him. especially here in nevada. there's been all kinds of crazy conspiracy theories about harry reid being involved. you mentioned the sound bite of someone saying harry's army. there's also the fact that reid is very frustrated. because i think he believes he's tried to work with the ranchers, tried to balance interests here. there's frustration in nevada in the rural counties that the federal government owns 85% of the land. but for reid, i think to ratchet it up by saying domestic terrorism, believe me, when he said that yesterday, i was at that event, that was clearly premeditated, is a measure of his frustration. but it is not helpful. just as it's not helpful for

dean heller to call those folks patriots who are as i said before, delusional about what's really going on. and i think it is just going to intensify the standoff that's going on up there. some folks are still up there. there's a meeting of the oath-keepers of southern nevada today there's a barbeque at the bundy ranch. tonight alex, this is a very tense situation. that's not being helped by the ratcheting up of this rhetoric. >> i also wonder what you, how you would grade the blm's strategy, if you will. i know you've been critical of them in the past. given how difficult it is t has been to negotiate with people, especially people who are armed with semiautomatic weapons and talking about patriotism and are ready to in their words, lay down their life for this, how difficult a position is the bureau of land management truly in? >> you're absolutely right about that, alex. i agree with you. i think you have to separate out the bundys from all these folks who came from out of state. these militia groups, the

oath-keepers, the sovereign citizen folks. the bundys have shown no propensity to be violent at all. but i believe clive bundy and his clan have been emboldened by this and ratcheted up the rhetoric by themselves. the blm is in a difficult position, but they should have never let this go on for 20 years. they handled it poorly and set up the first amendment zones which set off the protesters, but set off folks in our business, too. what's a first amendment zone? now look whey this had to do. they had to back off at the end, alex. there was real tension there. there are children running around out there i think they did the right thing. the question is how do they resolve this. harry reid is right, they, this is not over. they can't let this unprecedented flouting of the law go on. how do you do it? how do you do it in a peaceful way when there's so much tension? and frankly, so many guns out there. >> yeah, and i'm surprised that dean heller has taken such an opposing position. i mean dean heller is trying to

you know, get unemployment assistance extended and going against many of the members of his own party in washington. for him to come out so fairly on the side of bundy here is not something that every single conservative has done. i mean in fact, a lot of national conservatives have stayed away from this. except rand paul. >> yeah indeed you're right. in fact some of the conservatives here in our own congressional delegation and state politic here's have wisely kept their mouth shut. heller has first attacked the blm. he didn't defend bundy. in this joint appearance he just made on local television, he was firmly in these people are patriots, there was a 200-member blm army. he was, he was just obviously just pandering to the base. facts you know, didn't have to get in the way with that. and so yeah, he has gone against the base on unemployment, extension on immigration. but on this, he's decided to go all in, with the so-called patriots. his words, who are up there with their guns. >> it is a fascinating story.

and one, if you listen to the folks that are supporting bundy, that is not ending any time soon. "ralston reports" host, john ralston. thank you for your time. coming up, pope francis leads a special good friday mass at the vatican to mark one of the most religious days in the christian calendar. francis, faith and the church when joshua do yubois join me j ahead. [ hypnotist ] you are feeling satisfied

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affect the pipeline's route. legal experts have said that the battle could easily delay any decision until after november's mid-term elections or even into 2015. trans-canada is aiming to use the pipeline to send oil from canadian tar sands to u.s. refineries on the gulf coast. it is a remarkably dirty way to produce energy and since the beginning, keystone has been controversial. environmentalists warn the pipeline could lead to oil spills, it could further the country's dependence on fossil fuels and exacerbate climate change. surprising exactly no one, republicans are already criticizing today's announcement, including speaker john boehner who called the delay shameful. earlier this month, 11 senate democrats sent a letter to president obama urging him to make a final decision by the end of may. today's move all but guarantees that that will not happen. just ahead, despite her reputation as a scorpion eater and a presidential

finger-wagger, arizona governor jan brewer has so far done mostly and surprisingly the right thing when it comes to the affordable care act. now there's a new bill headed to her desk that aims to kick medicaid recipients off that their coverage if they stay on it for too long. can jan brewer resist her inner jan brewer? that's next. all stations come over to mission a for a final go. this is for real this time. step seven point two one two. verify and lock. command is locked. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it. siemens. answers.

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i think it's fair to say that as those of us of the christian faith, regardless of our denomination, have been touched and moved by pope francis. now some of it is his words, his message of justice and inclusion, especially for the poor. and the outcast. he implores us to see the inherent dignity in each human

being. but it's also his deeds. >> that was president obama singing the praises of pope francis at this week's easter prayer breakfast. pontiff continued to raek with tradition as part of holy week. yesterday he visited a home for the elderly and disabled to wash their feet. but the pope is not the only one returning to the humble roots of the catholic church. in 2012, the roman catholic group network, launched the nuns on the bus to your. they stopped at homeless shelters and health care facilities to call attention to extreme cuts to programs for the poor. as outlined in the budget drafted by house budget committee chair, paul ryan. ryan of course, also happens to be a catholic. last year the nuns hit the road again this time calling for comprehensive immigration reform. and now the leader of the nuns on the bus, sister simone campbell is out with a book about what motivated her to get involved in social justice issues in the very first place. she writes, living my faith teaches me to know that we in

creation are one body, no one is a mistake. no one is left out. this is why i am convinced by faith that we must strive for policies that include the 100%. and involve the 100% in their formulation. joining me now is the executive director of network catholic social justice lobby and author of "a nun on the bus: how all of us can create hope, change and community" sister simone campbell and former executive director of the white house office of faith-based and neighborhood partnerships, joshua dubois. it's so great to have you guys both on good friday, passover week as we head into easter sunday and talk about things that i think we don't talk often enough. and i would like to start with you, sister simone, issues of faith and how they inform policy and politics. i guess let's start from the beginning. to your mind, how did the religious right, i will say, sort of co-opt the notion of faith in service of their sort of morals and agenda. at one point the catholic church

was seen as progressive and almost guerilla in certain parts of the world. what happened in the last few decades? >> well i think one of the things that happened was economic security for some and fear for others. drove a very narrow faction of the church to look to rules and to a frightened approach to our faith in action. the fact is, as we celebrate today, that jesus was the ultimate risk-take anywhere caring for those who were left out. and sometimes our fear drives us away from that very generous-hearted gift of love that jesus is all about witnessing to. i think that's what got, awent awry for us, but we're coming back with the loimp eadership o pope. it's great. >> the president has been talking about pope francis a lot. we talked before in advance of the meeting a few weeks ago, the fact that he's bringing him up

and brings him up quite frequently i think is a testament not only to the effect that meeting had on the president, but in some ways it seems like it's a return to the catholic social justice tradition. which the president was very, was at the beginning of the president's community work it sounds like. >> that's right. you know a lot of folks know the president started off as a community organizer. what a lot of people don't know is he was organizing among churches funded by the catholic campaign for human development. inspired by cardinal joseph b n bernadine who believed in a seamless garment, that we have to protect people at their life and death and all points in between. he's had a deep respect for the catholic church and i think he sees pope francis bringing the catholic church back to the basics, loving god and loving your neighbor. and i think the president is impressed by that. >> sister simone, as joshua outlines, the president has a lot of support for the catholic church and love for the catholic church in terms of some of its

progressive adeals and his background. but it's interesting to see how catholics love or do not love the president. and you point out, catholics are not a monmonolith, they do not e in a monolithic block. for politician who is want to reach the sort of new catholic progressive, how do you suggest they talk to and communicate with this group of people? >> well i think it's true for politicians as it's true for any of us. the thing that i think people resonate with is integrity. are they speaking from their heart from what they actually believe. and too often politicians get railroaded kind of into a politically acceptable sound bite. which they think will be politically advantageous. if we touch the pain of our world, touch the place where jesus went, which is to lift up those who struggle. if they come from that place of struggle and they're wrestling

with it then there's authenticity and they'll get a good response. people care about authentic faith. >> you know what is interesting, joshua, is another remarkable thing happened this weekend at the white house regarding the president and his own evolution on the issue of on lgbt issues, he invited at the easter prayer breakfast, there weren't cameras around, i don't think it got picked up as much as it probably could or should have. he invited the episcopal church's first openly gay bishop. bishop eugene robinson to give the closing prayer at that meeting. which is for a president who came into office not exactly offering a full-throated support of gay marriage, i think a fairly remarkable evolution for him. and it's a sign of how much the times have changed, that he was able to do so and there wasn't actually that much discussion about it. >> it was a beautiful moment and both myself and sister simone were there for it it was an impromptu moment where the president looked out and saw bishop gene robinson and welcomed him up to give the

closing prayer. what i thought it signaled was this notion that we can all approach the throne of god. it doesn't mat fehr you're gay, straight, black, white, latino, republican or democrat, god is saying come unto me and bishop robinson responded to both god's call and the president's request. and went up there and gave a beautiful prayer. it was a remarkable moment that day. >> sister simone, let me in closing ask you, your thoughts, i mean it feels like real, we're at an inflection point as we always say in politics. but for faith-based politically engaged people, and that pope francis is in a lot of ways leading this charge. i know on certain social issues, he has not been as progressive perhaps as some folks would like. specifically on the issue of gay marriage and abortion. are you confident that he will lead the church in a new chapter of catholicism? >> well i think for us, this new chapter of catholicism is all about having conversation and

that it is not about enforcing rules to keep people quiet. what the pope is encourage something that we talk about the broad perspective, a vision and views. i don't expect a lot of doctrineary changes because as as he sees the way to build peace is through conversation and hearing each other's stories. in my book that's what i try to do, is tell stories that matter to people. i think that's how he's leading, i hope i'm following in his footsteps. >> joshua dubois and sister simone campbell, author of "a nun on the bus" a very positive easter week read, may i add, thank you both for your time. we will have more after the break. [ male announcer ] this is kevin.

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that's all for now, i will see you back here monday at 4:00 p.m. eastern, "the ed show" is up next. good evening americans and welcome to the "ed show" live from detroit lakes, minnesota, let's get to work! ♪ ♪ out west update what's happening out on the bundy ranch. >> the most powerful democrat in congress has now officially stepped way over the line. >> he doesn't like cliven bundy. >> blasted cliven bundy's supporters as domestic terrorists. >> domestic terrorists. >> these people who hold themselves out to be patriots, are not. >> you know members of the militia. >> they're nothing more than domestic terrorists. >> what do you have to say to the senator? >> well i guess he's right i don't know what else we'd be. we're