your partners best partner. we built it for our members, but it's open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. striking back at the nra. we have a lot of news to get to this easter morning including evidence of a new interview conducted by the christie administration's legal team after the mastro report was released. also word out of south korea at this hour that more bodies have been recovered from that passenger ferry which capsized with hundreds of people on board. confirmed death toll is now above 50 people. divers have finally been able to find a way inside the sunken

vessel. the death toll is expected to rise dramatically with 250 people still missing. we'll have more updates this morning as details become available there. but we begin with one of the most prominent and richest voices seeking to change the nation's gun laws almost all by himself. in his fourth month in office, the new mayor of new york was looking into these retrolooking buggies would replace horse drawn carriages in new york, but the real news was made by the former mayor of new york. michael bloomberg has lots of time on his hands and still plenty of money to contribute to causes that he care about. the former mayor told the "new york times" on tuesday that he is set to pour $50 million into efforts to promote stricter gun safety laws this year. in case you missed that, that's $50 million from one man on one issue, becoming a pattern in

politics. his goal is to outdo the national rifle association. bloomberg has already sunk a good deal of cash into his efforts. in 2012 his super pac spent more than $10 million on candidates who supported gun safety, gay rights, education reform and $3 million in one california house race, where he helped democratic challenger gloria negretti mcleod oust joe bacca, mainly because bacc had an "a" rating from the nra. bloomberg said he is just getting his feet wet. his new push unites his two advocacy groups into one large grassroot efforts. they are working together under the umbrella group every town for gun safety. the former mayor says the new effort will focus specifically on expanding background checks.

>> this is not a battle of dollars. this is a battle for the hearts and minds of america so that we can protect our children, protect innocent people. if you take a look at the number of people who use illegal guns to commit suicide, the number of people killed every year, we're the only civilized country in the world that has this problem. >> the public is with bloomberg to a point. polls show overwhelming across the board support for background checks. if you ask a more philosophical question, do you think we need more strict gun laws or less strict? opinion becomes a little more divided on that. a poll back in december found a slight majority of americans saying more strict. other polls have shown it's tighter than that. in politics it's the most passionate mobilized constituency that has the biggest impact. gun rights backers are more likely to give money to those working on gun policy. to turn this around, bloomberg is looking to win support from a

pivotal constituency, women. here's the founder of moms demand action, now board member of every town for gun safety, shannon watts. >> right now women vote on abortion, health care, jobs. we want that to be gun violence prevention, gun violence prevention, gun violence prevention. >> it's women who generally win or lose elections for democrats. the group's new video already seen by more than 1.5 million people was targeted scary at mothers. bloomberg made it clear that anyone, democrats or republicans who oppose stricter gun laws will be targeted by his new group. >> what we have to do is convince those in both the parties who are running that this is what the american public wants, when they get through their ply mares and come to a general election, they'll have to be right on guns. >> just last year bloomberg showed his willingness to go after democrats when his group ran a tv add targeting arkansas governor mark pryor for voting against expanded background

checks. mark pryor returned the favor with an ad of his own. >> running ads against me because i oppose president obama's gun control legislation. nothing in the obama plan would have prevented tragedies like newtown, aurora, tucson, or even jon jonesboro. i'm exited to finding real solutions to gun violence while protecting our second amendment rights. i'm mark pryor, i approved this message because no one from new york or washington tells me what to do. i listen to arkansas. >> many wonder how much influence the former mayor can have? his push to ban sodas and transfats has been mocked. and they had a field day with

this gem, pointing to his work on gun, safety, obesity and smoking cessation, bloomberg said with a grin, i'm telling you if there's a god, when i got to heaven i'm not stopping to be interviewed. i am heading straight in having earned my place. it's not even close. last year bloomberg spent $12 million on the gun checks bill but had little to show for it. it failed in the senate and it didn't come to a vote in the house. right now president obama can't get his pick for surgeon general confirmed because his nominee expressed support for gun safety measures. if you look ahead to the midterm elections, the "new york times" reported that gun daways are popular. lee brighten is challenging lindsey graham in the republican primary down there, he's given away two guns including an ar-15. georgia congressman paul brown, vying for the republican senate

nomination there offered a choice of a colt assault rifle or a handgun. raffles like these have drawn thousands of entries, scooping up voter information like e-mails and phone numbers along the way. the question is can bloomberg's millions help energize supporters on gun control in the same way? can an infusion of $50 million rival the nearly 150-year-old nra? here to discuss whether a billionaire can change the course of gun control politics in america, we have basos michael jr., msnbc contributor, patrick murphy. blake zeb from salon.com. so i guess i'll start with you, pia, you are sort of -- you're

right in the middle of the same fight this bloomberg mothers demand action group, this merged group. he says, you know, $50 million, we want to do grassroots go after democrats and republicans. background checks is the main issue here. what do you make of the announcement this week? you are optimistic about this? is this a good sign? >> absolutely. part of the problem here is that you mentioned the nra spends about $20 million a year on politics, but they have a $200 million annual budget. we're talking big corporate money from them. they're able to attract corporate donations from folks in the gun industry. so we're actually short on cash. this $50 million commitment is superb. we need a lot to start to make a difference on this. one of it is money. >> what do you want to see the money go to? i'm looking at -- we showed and talked earlier about the ads that he was running, that his group was running early last year when background checks were an issue in the senate, they went after mark pryor, went after some democrats, got some

push back from harry reid saying how do you do this. at the end of the day they didn't get the bill passed through. mark pryor looks like he's doing okay when it comes to re-election. i don't think he hurt the senators. where do you want to see that $50 million spent? >> part of the problem is that the nra has been very good at manipulating this conversation. as the president said a year ago, they've lied, literally lied to the american people about what was in the bill and what the consequences would be had it passed. your dealing with conflicted voices. we want the money to be spent on political ads, organizing, our group is doing the same. we already raised more than the nra spent last cycle in their politics. there's money in this for the first time on the side of common sense, responsible solutions to the obvious tragedy of gun violence in the country. >> basel you wrote about this on thursday on the "new york times"

site. you said high incumbency rates and aggressive gerrymander iing have insulated many house members from this issue. so you're saying bye pass this? >> it's difficult to unseat an incumbent. there are some notable except n exceptio exceptions, but someone like a carolyn mccarthy here in new york, you know, her brother and husband were impacted by the shooter on the long island railroad. she unseated an incumbent who voted against gun control laws. there are some exceptions. i also think if you're talking about transporting guns from virginia to new york, for example, you can impact some of the state legislative races that can tighten some in-state gun laws. so, it's not just focusing on congress. my advice is also focus on some

of those local legislative races. you mentioned the story of carolyn mccarthy, she's retiring this year. she got in there because of the long island railroad massacre in december of 1993. it was around that time that there was the last real gun control push in this country, the brady bill, five-day waiting period came through at that time. i think back around that time there were incidents like that that animated the discussion, but also a high crime rate in this country. when you took a poll back then, you asked the people the top question facing the country, crime is number one and number two. if you ask about violent crime right now, it is way down in polls. i can't help but think that's part of it. we'll have these horrible incidents like at newtown, people say let's do something about this. >> every day there's 33

americans killed by gun deaths. by next year, young people will be killed by gun deaths that will be the number one killer of young americans, even more than car crashes. when you look at the younger generation who are showing the political courage. you look at generation progress, they started the fight for the 4 33. and bloomberg is brilliant. he's like a bulldog on a bone, he mentioned assault weapon ban. i cosponsored the assault weapon ban. that kills 400 people a year. 31,000 are killed by handguns, whether it's suicide or violent crime. that's where bloomberg is focusing like a bulldog on a bone. >> what's the -- as we said, there was limited success last year when it came to bloomberg's group. also, we should mention a litmus test of gun control politics in a swing state out in colorado last year.

two recalls of democratic state senators in colorado got a lot of national attention. it was a surprise. bloomberg's group came out to help these people. one was defeated. they were both recalled because of gun control. you know, he'd seen to be going after mark pryor and other senate democrats, seems to have backed off. doesn't seem to have hurt them. what do you think strategically what can they do differently to have a different result? >> two things. i was talking with one of the top strategists from the brady campaign back in the '90s who helped to get the big gun safety package back then, he was saying you have almost half of households in america that have firearms in the home. you need to stop getting out of this framework, anti-gun and pro gun. we have to reach out to gun owners. the vast overwhelming majority of them do not mind getting a background check, do not want the military style rifles. these people can be allies in the cause. some people even say stop

calling about gun control, talk about gun safety reform. this anti-gun and pro gun appalachian benefits the nra. the other way to do it, this is something that michael bloomberg had this romantic fantasy that the great ill in society is partisanship. he loves to claim that every -- on every issue both parties are equally to blame. republicans are bad, democrats are bad, i will go after both. if we end up with a republican senate in the united states senate, that's not good for his cause. if he goes after a democratic incumbent mark pryor and doesn't have a better alternative, and you have a republican who's worse on the issue, that would be problematic. if he is going after people in democratic primaries, great, if you have an alternative. >> we have to squeeze a break in here. i want to pick up this conversation about what bloomberg is doing here. more of the things he said this week. this is an interesting interview

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so, blake was just making a couple points about the strategy he thinks mike bloomberg's new group should be taking. patrick you wanted to say something? >> we can criticize the senate for not having the political courage to do the right thing about a year ago. at least it came up for a vote in the senate. the republicans control the house. they didn't even bring this up for a vote. there's a major difference between the two parties when we talk about gun safety. i will say again, i'm excited that bloomberg and the groups are focusing on the background checks, that's the number one effort we can do to reduce gun deaths. >> it's the most attainable, i want to pick up on a point blake was making on trying to find common ground here with gun owners and not make this be seen

as a threat to them. i think we want to show one thing. another quote from this bloomberg "new york times" article, i don't know what your perception of our reputation on our mine. he continued explaining wherever he goes people tell him you're a rock star. people yelling out of cabs, hey, way to go. jamel buoy was writing at slate about why he thinks bloomberg is a terrible frontman for this company. bloomberg is sabotaging himself by stepping up as the public face of this effort, otherwise receptive americans may recoil at supporting a figure who represents the nanny state authoritarian of wealthy new york city elites. like holding up the big gulp in front of crowds saying mayor

bloomberg wants to take this away from you. >> the thing about bill gates, he put a tremendous amount of his own money into funding education programs in the united states and across the world. he's the public face, but we know he has a major operation behind that. as pia was saying, having a big operation and a significant organization on the ground sort of insulates both mayor bloomberg and the policy here from those kinds of attacks. you don't want to make it seem like it's elitist or an urban problem. you have to be mindful of the fact that a lot of people feel that gun ownership is cultural. it's part of what they consider to be american authenticity. if bloomberg and the safe that's working on this couldn't understand that, you would be more successful. >> it makes people in arkansas think, hey, this is why we're arkansas and they're new york city. mark pryor said i'm not listening to the guy from new york city, i'm listening to

arkansas. it seems an effective message. >> the poll you showed earlier in the last segment talking about the specific policy proposals having higher support than the generic notion of gun control, that's because we have a trust issue. we have a group of americans, gun owners, who look at leadership in this country, the president, speaker of the house, mayor bloomberg, all great people, former speaker of the house who are not gun owners and don't understand gun culture. when you see them trying to push policies that would, you know, regulate or restrict in any way, they get nervous. that's why former congresswoman giffords and captain kelly is in this fight. gabby was a blue dog her whole career, very moderate from arizona, they get it. >> do you agree that bloomberg is saying here, look, the goal here is background checks. do you share that as your main

goal? >> yeah. i mean, there's no one sort of perfect answer to solve the gun violence problem in this country. background checks is the simplest, easiest thing we can do today. it already happens. it occurs every day. >> the counter to that i hear is, like, it's a rationalization for people voting against it, they say it wouldn't have prevented newtown. how much would it accomplish? or would it say, hey, we got this pushed through. >> you bring up columbine. today is the 15-year anniversary of the columbine shooting. those two men couldn't pass a background check because they were under 18. they had a friend over 18 go and try and buy the gun and was successful. there is always more we can do to strengthen that system. yes, it's not going to solve every shooting, but is that a reason not to do it? roughly 60% of gun sales happen

through a background check. 40% don't. 40% happen anonymously or with no check at all. so folks intending to do harm have access. why can't we solve that? i understand the debate gets harder when you talk about which guns should be allowed, how many bullets. that's tough. we need an environment where we can all have that conversation in a more trusting way. right now one side is screaming at the other. what's lost is the middle of this country, that's where most people are on the issue. >> if i could jump in, that's why gabby giffords is such an important figure. we came into congress together. we're both gun owners, but the fact this effort, this $50 million push is targeting mothers. if i have someone like gabby giffords and her husband who is a veteran, saying we're gun owners, we are not trying to take away your guns, we need to stand up as a country. it's a disgrace that 33 americans are killed every

single day. >> so, blake, where -- look at the 2014 landscape. is there anywhere we can look and say this will be a test of this? >> it's a little soon for that. the organization is just starting. i would defer to pia for specific targets. one thing that's key in deciding how successful it will be is how well the groups work together. it's great that we have, you know, the former member of congress as a potential face of this. we have the resources of michael bloomberg and many other gun safety reform groups. if we can get them all on the same page, that's critical. one example, not the same issue, but in new york state they were trying to get marriage equality for several years. so many different groups working across purposes. what they finally did was they all came together under one umbrella group and said this is our strategy, this is how we'll do it we'll all speak with one voice and get it done. you have well-meaning people in the gun safety reform movement who all want to get the same thing done.

it's a matter of speaking with one voice and consolidating the voices. a >> and sticking around. enduring. >> and accountability. joe bacca is not a member of congress because of mike bloomberg, he made him accountable. i voted -- i'm a second amendment guy, i vote sometimes what i thought was right for gun rights. i still got an "f" from the nra, even though i'm a vet, gun owner w them on some issues. when it came to background checks and the assault weapon ban, i wasn't that made me an enemy of the state basically. >> that gets to what bas eshil writing about with the gerrymandering of districts. there are a few districts where you're exposed if you're pro nra and you are not paying the price in the general election, but in arkansas, it's a tough question. you from a gun control supporter, you will face a

hostile election. that's a long-term problem. i want to thank blake zeff, pia carusone, basil smikle and patrick murphy. up next, the showdown over the next hypothetical nominee to the supreme court. later, out of all of the 75 interview memos released this week by the law firm that conducted the internal investigation into chris christie, exactly one of them involves a change made after the report's release. we believe that change has something to do with something that was said on this show. the details are still ahead.

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siemens. answers. president obama's nominees for federal judgeships. this might be the first time you're hearing about it because

confirmations like these have become kind of routine. that's also a new phenomenon. the smooth routine judicial confirmations. it's the result of something that senate democrats did last year while republicans howled. last year harry reid partially detonated the so-called nuclear option. he and democrats changed the senate rules to effectively ban the minority party from blocking votes on federal judges for appointees to the executive branch jobs. with the republicans in the minority in the senate and blockading a whole series of critical nominees, the move back then made tactical sense. you can see the results that it's producing now. but what happens if republicans win back the senate this november and become the majority part? what happens if they have the power to keep every presidential nominee, judicial or otherwise from getting a vote? if, say, stephen breyer or ruth bader ginsburg retire, do you

think mitch mcconnell will allow a vote on any nominee that president obama picks? elena kagan had strong bipartisan support and still only five republican senators voted for her. three of those senators are no longer in office. so, when you thought about the high stakes of the 2014 midterm elections, have you been factoring in the supreme court? i'm joined with a legal correspondent from slate who joins us from richmond, virginia. dahlia, thanks for taking the time and getting up with us. i have been thinking about this question a lot. we think which party wins the white house, that's the party that gets to pick the nominees. i wonder when you look at how the republicans were handling judicial nominees up to this filibuster rules change last fall and the prospect of republicans winning back the senate last year, you could see a scenario if sometime in 2015 or 2016 there's a supreme court opening, republicans are controlling the senate, what's that going to mean for a barack

obama supreme court nominee then? >> i think it's so interesting that the segment you just did was about this intensity gap about guns, because it maps perfectly on to this conversation as well, which is that there is such a profound intensity gap about the supreme court, you know, don't forget republicans have been at war with the supreme court since the nixon era. this was the meese project, to change the courts. you know, i think that that progressives on the other hand tend to hit the snooze button on the courts between one confirmation hearing and the next. we don't think about it. so there is this enormous disparity in how much we care. and we really saw that play out, as you said, with the destruction of obama judges until the filibuster reform. but we have seen it play out in the explicit language, with which gop members talked about, oh, we won't put someone on the d.c. circuit court of appeals,

considered the next highest court under the supreme court. we won't put someone on there, then the court would be liberal. they're quite open about the project. i think progressives have been very, very slow to understand the intensity with which the gop has not just focused on the court, but i think george w. bush changed the court and i think progressives have not really looked at what that means, as you say, going forward. >> and you mentioned the d.c. circuit, that was the fight last year, republicans basically inventing this argument that it was too big, didn't need more judges. and under the old senate rules, they were keeping anybody from getting confirmed to that. if you take that example and extrapolate it to 2015, 2016, maybe a supreme court fight t raises the question should there be talk now of one of them think about retiring now w republicans in a decent position to take back the senate this fall?

>> well, there's always that talk. there's certainly -- it's interesting, it tends to target ruth bader ginsburg, who is 81, not so much stephen breyer. every couple months someone writes a piece saying justice ginsburg, you're old, please step down so obama can fill your seat now before this gets ugly. there is that talk. it's generally met, including by myself, with a, hey, she knows what she's doing. don't force her to sit down. it smacks of ageism and sexism. but i think it is certainly the case that obama will find it -- if you consider how it has been impossible, with control of the senate, and even, you know, after filibuster reform, and with obama as the president, it's been so hard for him to fill these judicial vacancies. we still have 14 judicial emergencies where we have a

nominee waiting for nomination. this has been a crisis at points, still there is no public will behind the idea that we have to get these judges on the bench because if we don't, if obama loses or if, as you say, the senate changes hands, we will not get, you know, progressive judges on the courts. you hear crickets when we have that conversation on the left. because i think there's just a sense that, you know, there are too many other issues that rank above judicial vacancy. >> i think that's -- this is an issue that needs more attention. we think about the clock ticking down to january 20, 2017, but really it could be january 2015, if republicans are the majority party and behave like they were when they were minority party, you better get those nominees you want through, get them through now because there's no guarantee in january 2015 that will be the case. my thanks to dahlia lithwick for

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♪ the hillary clinton story that sucked up the oxygen this week was her daughter, chelsea's announcement that she was expecting her first child this is enormous news in any impending grandparent's life. the far more critical headline for hillary clinton's political future is how a pro hillary super pac is taking steps to court a key voting bloc that helped president obama win the white house in 2008. they are trying to woo young voters. they made no attempt that they're sticking to the obama 2008 campaign handbook. they hired away rachel snyder to help target voters age 16 to 30. mother jones reported this week that ready for hillary, the grassroots super pac, is already storming college campuses in an

effort to recruit an army of millennial volunteers who could be called up for duty come next fall if and when the former secretary of state decides to run for president. this isn't the first time hillary clinton has exhibited a shrewd ability to communicate with young people. she not only met with the two guys who created the tumblr texts from hillary, she adopted the iconic imagery for her own twitter account. at this stage of the 2008 presidential cycle, president obama had not yet entered the field, so organizing early seems to be a smart, strategic move. recent polling suggests this crucial voting bloc is up for grabs in 2016. a "washington post" abc news pole from january had a huge number of 18 to 39-year-olds, 62% of them weighing in favorably for hillary clinton. more eventually young voters showed a drop in youth support for hillary from 60% approval in

2009 to 42% in march. go figure that one out. we're still a year away from the official start of the next presidential campaign season, hillary clinton already enjoys a seemingly unprecedented lead over democratic competitors. this outreach campaign can get young voters on her side, will there be any stopping her once the voting begins? back at the table we have strategist basil smickle jr., haley adams, the founder of yale university student force hillary. her group is associated with the ready for hillary super pac. we have raul reyes, columnist for "usa today." and adam greene is in washington, co-founder of the progressive change campaign committee. haley, i will start with you. you are part of what we just talked about. you are part of this effort to mobilize a youth army for a potential hillary clinton campaign in 2016 what is it that you're doing now and hoping to achieve. >> i've been working with students since the beginning of

this year to garner the enthusiasm that exists for hillary clinton and channel that into a progressive movement. there is so much enthusiasm on campuseses throughout the united states. now there's over 33 groups throughout the country that are geared solely towards encouraging hillary clinton to ruchb run. ready for hillary provides the training and support necessary to make sure the campus groups are successful. but the campus groups can take on whatever shape they want. >> you are training essentially a campaign army. where is this enthusiasm coming from? we can look back -- she ran for president before. she ran for president in 2008. i can look back at the stats from the iowa kcaucuses that year. they lost the caucuses because she lost the young vote. 57% of them went for obama. now you're talking about this big youth enthusiasm for hillary. where is it coming from? >> i think hillary has become -- people my age recognize hillary is an impressive individual.

a force to be reckoned with. as of late people realize she's someone they want to know. she's someone they relate to. she tweets funny things, she takes selfies with meryl streep, she writes letters to comedians. these are all things people my age is relate to. she also stands for the things people my age care for. she stands for immigration reform, access to affordable college, she stands for the things people my age will go out and vote for. >> raul, i look back to 2008, i could look at a lot of those issues in 2008 and say she checked off the boxes back then. >> right. >> was the war, the vote for the war the reason in 2008 she couldn't tap into this. >> i don't think it was so much that. when i look back to 2008, i don't think that so much hillary lost the youth vote as much as she did not fight for it. that was something that barack obama -- he had a fantastic ground organization with college

campuses at that grassroots level and you need people with passion, people with enthusiasm and time to go around knocking on door and canvassing. that's college students, young people. he had that. hillary did not -- she did not that time fight for that vote. i think, you know, when we look at millenniums -- i'm so grad haley is here. often we talk about them and they're not in the discussion. it's that the pew center did a big study of the millennials, they are a group of people, they are not checked into traditional institutions, such as the democratic party. they're heavily networked with friends. the strategy she's using this time with facebook, twitter, engaging young people that will be effective. and millennials are the most diverse generation in history. 43% nonwhite. when you go to any appearance by hillary and you see latinos, african-americans, you see women

who bring their mothers and their daughter. this type of multigenerational appeal. >> i'm almost a millennial. i think the cutoff was 19806789 i will give myself honorary millennial status. adam greene, the progressive change campaign committee. you're hearing the ground swell of youth support for hillary. she's running -- you take a poll of democratic parties, she's running at 60%, 70%. across the board she's doing well. particularly among young voters, that's a marked departure of what happened in the democratic primaries in 2008. do you see the same thing and do you think she deserves that support from millennials? >> we can all stipulate to two things from the start. one is that hillary clinton enters this race as the big front-runner. the second is that there's a series of things she could do or not do that would make her life easier or harder as she tries to capture the nomination. one of those might be actively fighting for the youth vote. i would put my finger on another

which relates to the youth vote, taking actual issue positions that are progressive. i was struck by the fact that haley said they want to foster a movement on college campuses. we actually poll tested elizabeth warren's populous message in red states, blue states and purple states to see how popular it is. whether it's making college massively more affordable for people like haley and her peers, starting with the down payment of getting students the same low interest rates as the big banks get to wall street reform and accountability to our grandparents and veterans need better social security benefits not worse, all of these things are 2-1, 3-1 popular in texas, kentucky, red states, purple states like colorado and iowa. my hope for hillary clinton is she makes life easy for people like haley by embracing a lot of these economic populist ideas, not being well known for giving

$200,000 speeches to goldman sachs. >> i want to talk about some of those issues he just put out there, and how hillary is sort of positioned on them. and if there is room there for somebody else when it comes to millennials millennials. we have to fit a break in. we asked people a question,

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from contractors and doctors to dog sitters and landscapers, you can find it all on angie's list. we found riley at the shelter, and found everything he needed at angie's list. join today at angieslist.com so basil, adam green was raising a point that i wonder about sometimes as well. when you look at the energy in the progressive movement, talking about questions like income inequality. some of it gets back to, you know, an indictment of some of the things that happened in the bill clinton years as president. i wonder -- i look at the polls that show hillary way out there. i look at that energy and say does that leave some wiggle room for somebody to say, you know, you haven't gotten the full hillary clinton story here. >> i don't think we should be

dismissive of hillary's liberal credenti credentials. she was talking about -- >> word. >> did you say word? she was talking about health care at a time when it wasn't necessarily popular until barack obama came and created obamacare. if you talk about issues affecting haley and her generation, student loans, credit card debt, she will be talking about those things. when we go back to whether or not she fought for the youth vote, she lost the caucuses. i think strategy was different at that time. the parties were different at that time. when she lost to iowa, the whole narrative was different. >> social media was different. >> the diminished role of party politics. it is an individualized campaign strategy directly targeting voters through social media. i think she'll have the ability to talk directly to voters of haley's generation or my generation and older in a way that she wasn't able to do

before. >> haley, is part of this, in 2008, there was the potential to make history one way or the other. first woman president, first african-american president. in 2016 there's still the potential to make the first woman president, to make history there. is that part of the excitement for the hillary movement. >> undoubtedly so. the idea of electing the first female president is exciting for everyone. there's a lot of enthusiasm around hillary but not solely for that. hillary being a female who suppor supports women's rights, not only my generation cares about women's rights, but also men care about women's rights. it's very important. >> to adam's point that hillary has not been as progressive as some people may have wanted her to be. when she's speaking at college campuses, she's talking about student debt, the very difficult job market this generation faces. i think she is making much more of an effort to relate on that

level. i don't -- because elizabeth warren so far has said she's not running, i think we're getting to speculation comparing her to elizabeth warren, but compared to any of the possible republican challengers, many of whom are younger than hillary, and they're floating those comparisons they're younger and fresher who has the young ideas? who has the modern ideas? who relates to women in a contemporary way, that's hillary. >> adam greene, last word on this. respond to what you have heard. we have seen that hillary has evolved. it's a red flag for some people that she gives $200,000 speeches to goldman sachs. will she be able to deal with corporate power? if she stands up to them, she probably has the nomination. i hope she understands that and makes people like haley's life easy. >> my thanks to adam green, raul

reyes from "usa today," basil smickle, and haley adams. still ahead, the mysterious footnote to one of the memos of the mastro report. we will tell you why it had us checking our calendars and our archives. that's ahead. we have a personalized legal solution that's right for you. with easy step-by-step guidance, we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. start your business today with legalzoom. we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. why relocating manufacturingpany to upstate new york? i tell people it's for the climate. the conditions in new york state are great for business. new york is ranked #2 in the nation for new private sector job creation. and now it's even better because they've introduced startup new york - dozens of tax-free zones where businesses pay no taxes for ten years. you'll get a warm welcome in the new new york. see if your business qualifies at startupny.com

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step y . it's been three weeks since governor chris christie hoped to turn the page on the bridge gate scandal by releasing his administration's only internal report. why did the team feel the need to go back and reinterview one of the key witnesses almost two weeks later? and why did that interview happen after that witness appeared as a guest on this show? we'll break it down for you after this. [ male announcer ] this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol.

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christie investigation. we include in that the news of our own discovery from the mastro report memos that a key witness was reinterviewed nearly two weeks after the report was released, days after appearing on this show. the full details of that in a moment. first, transcripts released today show the confusion on bore that confusion on board that south korean ferry in the moments before it sank. one witness said the passengers could not board the life boats because the ship listed too much. the official death toll is over 50. that number is expected to rise dramatically with 250 people still missing. we'll have more updates as news becomes available here on msnbc. now, about that new jersey news -- you're saying you heard the entire conversation between dawn zimmer and richard constable. >> i heard the part about them talking regarding the hazard mitigation. >> were there words exchanged

between them that you couldn't hear. >> i don't think so. >> you heard the entire conversation. >> i heard the conversation. >> the entire conversation. >> the conversation about hazard mitigation. from what they were talking, no. >> you remember that guy? his name is matt doherty, a democratic mayor for belmar, new jersey. we invited him on the show a few weeks ago because he plays a key role in the mastro report, the report prepared by a law firm hired by chris christie's office and purports to exonerate the governor in the bridge gagate scandal. this week, we have new information that raises more questions. we'll get to that in a minute. to give you a refresher, matt doherty emerged in the mastro report as a key player in the other scandal plaguing the christie administration, not the

closure of the george washington bridge access lanes but the allegations from hoboken mayor dawn zimmer that christie linked sandy aid to the development of a commercial project. mastro report touts dougherty as an independent dependent eyewit undermines one of mayor zimmer's key claims. now at issue here is one of christie's cabinet secretaries, richard constable, that he suggested to her that there was a linkage between her city sandy aid and that proposed development project. it was known as the rockefeller group project. zimmer and constable sat next to each other at a televised town hall event at mammoth university in may of last year. on that stage, just before the broadcast started, zimmer claim she's had this exchange with

constable. we are miked up with other panelists all around us. probably the sound team is listening. and he says i hear you are against the rockefeller project. i reply, i'm not against the rockefeller project. in fact i want more commercial development in hoboken. really? everyone in the state house believes you are against it. the buzz is that you are against it. if you move that forward, the money would start flowing to you, he tells me. that's from a contemporaneous diary entry that zimmer shared with us when she made her allegations on this program on january 18th. she then shared with the united states attorney for new jersey. commissioner constable firmly denies zimmer's characterization of that conversation. the mastro report claims that zimmer's version of events is blown out of the water by matt doherty because doher it was also on stage with zimmer and constable that night and he heard that conversation and nothing like zimmer was alleging is spoken. the report continues, mayor doherty said he never heard

commissioner constable say anything to mayor zimmer in words or substance along the lines of mayor zimmer's allegation. and this, mayor doherty said he did not hear commission constable say anything about quid pro quos or make threats to anyone. mayor doherty observed that zimmer may have been associating the subjects in her own mind, but that's not what constable said so the mastro report concludes that he appears to be telling the truth. we saw a problem with this. back in january, when zimmer first made her allegations, a reporter who knew that doherty had been on stage that night asked him that night. doherty told the recorder he didn't remember the conversation and remembered sitting in between zimmer and constable. and you can plainly see from the picture that doherty's memory was wrong there. given the fact that doherty had

not remembered the conversation and was wrong about where he was sitting, how key be as confident as the mastro report sittinged said he was. so we asked him over and over, did you hear the entire conversation? his replies were, a little hard to follow. >> did you hear the whole conversation or not? >> i heard their conversation. >> the entire conversation. >> the conversation about the hazard mitigation. >> was there more to the conversation that you didn't hear? >> all i can talk about is what i did hear. >> are parts of the conversation you did not hear. >> there may have been parts of the conversation that you did hear. >> could he have whispered it? i guess. >> by the end of that interview, do doherty seemed to -- i said on the air that he said he was

hearing the entire conversation. the very next doherty interviewing us saying to be very clear, regarding the conversation that i heard, i did not hear comissioner constable threaten or use a quid pro quo. the conversation focused on hazard mitigation in hoboken. mayor zimmer did most of the talking. commissioner constable did most of the listening. in addition, any threat or quid pro quo would be strikingly opposite to commissioner constable's character as i know it. it is also my own opinion that mayor zimmer is an excellent mayor for hoboken and someone who is honest and truthful. if there is any part of that conversation that i did not hear, i have no knowledge of it. now it seems like mayor doherty

was reopening the possibility that he did not hear the conversation. when we reached out to constable's office to get constable on, they replied he wasn't available but helped us arrange an interview with doherty instead. that's where we left things the end of last month. this key witness in the mastro report. a democratic mayor friendly with the christie administration telling us he doesn't think dawn zimmer is lying about her conversation with richard constable, but also that nothing like she says was said was actually said. now we have learned more information that only raises more doubt about mastro's report and how doherty was used in it. mastro released memos outlining the 75 interviews they used in their report. a few things jumped out at us. ralph larossa, who runs the largest new jersey gas and

electric utility company, he was also on stage at mammoth university that night. that's him sitting behind dawn zimmer. it turns out he was interviewed by christie's lawyers as well. quoting from the memo, larossa responded he did not hear the alleged conversation between mayor zimmer and constable. and then this interview from patrick murray, political scientist and polling expert. he was say thing on stage, too, sitting right there on the other side of constable. he was as close to the conversation as dohe trshrty. so that's two other people who were on the stage sitting basically as close to zimmer and constable and doherty was and neither one heard what was said between them. when doherty was on our show, he said he heard zimmer and constable talking about hazard

mitigation, plans about preventing future flooding disasters in hoboken. when i asked him in detail what he heard, this is what he told me. >> if you heard the whole conversation, how else did it go? >> i heard them talking about hazard mitigation, expressing her views on it. she does a great job advocating for her town. him listening to it, kind of districting where to go just like when i talked to him prior to going up on stage about hazard mitigation, and him explaining how the money is supposed to come in. hazard mitigation is not even through the department of xh community affairs. >> constable said his conversation with zimmer lasted a minute or so and consisted of making pleasantries with her and at some point constable recalled that mayor zimmer said something about moving forward with the rockefeller project. constable believed she used the word rockefeller but was not

sure in response constable recalled generally saying something to the effect that he did not think she was in favor of commercial development. constable recalled generally that mayor zimmer responded she was in favor of commercial development in hoboken. so, according to constable interview, the conversation wasn't just about hazard mitigation. and, in fact, there are broad similarities between constable's recollection and what zimmer recorded in her diary what she wrote in her diary. she told constable she was for more commercial development in hoboken and he replied that the buzz at the state house was against it. and remember also zimmer is not alleging that constable made a direct threat or that he tried to intimidate her with his tone. she is alleging they had a conversation in which he replayed what he was hearing at the state house and suggested if she moved forward with the rockefeller project she begin getting the sandy money she wanted. that doesn't have to be a threat. that could have been constable trying to offer friendly advice

based on what he was hearing at the state house. we know constable told mastro's team that development was a part of the conversation with zimmer. what he called a one-minute conversation with zimmer. we know two people sitting close to zimmer and constable at that event didn't hear that conversation. we know a third person who was sitting close by, matt doherty first said that he didn't hear the conversation, and also incorrectly remembered where he was sitting on the stage, but then later said he did hear the conversation and suggested on our show that the discussion had been about flood mitigation. that is the key independent witness who the mastro report relies on to discredit what dawn zimmer has said. by the way, in the mastro team memo it notes that dshoherty wa

interviewed on january 28th, february 13th, march 24th and april 8th. that last date, april 8th, was a week after doherty was on this show. out of all 75 of the interviews released this week, exactly one of them involved a change that was made after the mastro report was released late last month. and that change has to do with someone who was on this show a few weeks ago. we'll have all the details a little later. and unlimited international messaging. all so your family can do more-- for less. our best plans. on the best network. for best results, use verizon. worst morning ever. [ angelic music plays ] ♪ toaster strudel! best morning ever! [ hans ] warm, flaky, gooey. toaster strudel!

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so we had the report in the "wall street journal" yesterday saying six new subpoenas from your committee last week. is that accurate? >> we've been talking about bringing individuals in for testimony before the committee. we have gotten to that point

where we assessed enough material that we can start asking questions to witnesses. we've lined up potentially four individuals that we think we're going to bring in so i can foresee there being four subpoenas going out to individuals. >> that was john wisniewski, cochair of the new jersey state legislative committee investigating the george washington bridge lane closures which have snared governor chris christie's administration. breaking news yesterday, four new subpoenas are going out this week to four individuals. on wednesday, "the star-ledger" reported that the republicans on the committee are becoming restless. if you want a bipartisan investigation, then you need to communicate with members of the committee republican assembly minority loader john bramnick said. all the republican members have indicated to me that wisniewski

does not do that. my concern is that we don't want the public thinking this is a bipartisan committee when reality, it's john wisniewski's committee. here to discuss the possibility of more subpoenas, we have john bramnick, new jersey assemblyman and a new jersey reporter. wnbc's brian thompson, and liz smith, a democratic consultant who worked on new jersey governor jon corzine's campaign. so, assemblyman, i will start with you, since you kicked up this storm. basically we read your quote, and you're talking about potentially having a walkout here. having the republicans leave this committee. is that a real possibility and why? >> absolutely. john wisniewski comes on your show and says we have lined up witnesses. there's been absolutely no discussion with any republican

members about lining up witnesses. that proves my point. now he's becoming a prosecutor. he's issuing subpoenas on his own. that's dangerous for, i think, the future of new jersey politics. the former state chairman. now he lines up mike duhame, probably the class of new jersey in terms of a political strategist. he now has to live with this fact that one person, the former state chairman is mentioning him as a potential witness. you know what public hears when they hear subpoena? they immediately think the person did something bad. if you're not going to include republicans, don't call it bipartisan. come on shows and now it's things on shows. it's someone in the committee -- >> let's -- let's -- he's not here with us. this is what he said yesterday. he's saying he did consult with you guys. play what he said. you can respond. >> he said he's now going to consult. >> i can foresee there being four subpoenas going out to individuals.

we wanted to consult with members of the committee first to understand who we're bringing in. we had that generic conversation last time we met in executive session. this is not a surprise or news to anybody on the committee. but we do want to firm up what the plans are for who is coming before us. >> he's saying -- >> we want to consult. >> he says it is not a surprise because you got the broad outlines -- >> it's a surprise coming from him because he's done everything unilaterally. what's the standard now in new jersey to subpoena someone? when you have a prosecutor doing this, they understand the seriousness of serving a subpoena. are you telling me politicians in new jersey will control -- >> the push back i would give you is simply this, you're crediting wisniewski for subpoenas wildstein and the others, the only reason this is

a story is wisniewski is putting it out there. >> i give credit where credit is do. >> sometimes the subpoenas work. >> there was one e-mail from bridget kelly. no evidence that the governor knew anything. now john wisniewski has taken that and gone to the point where i'm seriously concerned he's become a prosecutor. yes, there was some good work. now you have to be measured and reasonable. you have to be fair. that's what we're really concerned about. >> i want to get liz in here. >> let me jump in as the democrat here. i think if the republicans try to pull out here, it will look like a continuation of the whitewash that we saw with the joke that was randy mastro's report. and i think the release of all the raw materials from the mastro report confirmed that christie's governor's office was functionally operating as a political office. it was the worst of a mixture of keystone cops and tammany hall.

my question to you is don't you think that the people of new jersey deserve to know really what was behind this list of 117 mayors? if the governor knew about it? two, especially, don't you think the citizens of new jersey and people that you represent, people in westfield. don't they deserve to know if the services they receive were affected or diminished somehow because of this hit list of 117 mayors? these are new questions. this goes beyond bridgegate. that was just the tip of the iceberg. >> we want john wisniewski and others to sign a confidentiality agreement, before you go on msnbc and go public with anything, have a vote, maybe 8-4 vote, we're happy to lose the vote but let's have the discussion before it becomes prosecutor on television. >> brian, you're reporting on this from trenton. what is your sense of what is going on with the committee. >> there's no question that

there is divisiveness twisting between the republicans and democrats. the republicans have no choice but to join the committee when it was started. the memos, the e-mail from bridget kelly, time for some traffic problems in ft. lee was a smoking gun. >> it was a yew munanimous vote. >> it was. there was push back through that process, nonetheless. when they got to the vote, republicans were trying to qualify it a bit. trying to suggest, well, we don't know where it's going to go, how it will be done. that was heard. and then they still had to vote in favor. but unanimously, both in the senate and assembly. i think what you're hearing from the minority leader here, mr. bramnick is a frustration with a process but i think from what i -- what frfrom what i know of process, there's no question this has to go to the next stage. the next stage is to interview some of these people who were

involved in parts of this we know, for example, from my sourcing, that among the people that the democrats would like to interview are some of the people at the port authority who had relations or dealings of some sort with david sampson. that's just one aspect of it. they want to find out more also from the governor's office. how did it work? how did this office of intergovernmental relations become such a political operation that now it's been abolished by the governor himself based on the mastro report. >> nick, what brian is outlining there, what the subpoenas have produced, how do you achieve that without subpoenas? >> i have no problem with the committee proceeding with its work. i don't think the republicans should walk out. i don't make the decision. i would caution the single worst thing that could happen is if we

do what some republicans are doing is moving on to reform the port authority. god help us when reformers take over. the port authority is bad enough. leave it alone. as for politics in the front office, i'm shocked. i would point out that the three governors i can think of who served only one term did not do politics out of the front office and probably should have. >> taking the politics out of politics sometimes. >> taking the chocolate out of hot chocolate. >> i want to talk more about what will happen next week. the subpoenas will come out. who will be subpoenaed? where is this going? it's more than just a meal, it's meow mix mealtime. with wholesome ingredients and irresistible taste, no wonder it's the only one cats ask for by name. add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get $100 off for every year of safe driving.

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this is mike. his long race day starts with back pain... ...and a choice. take 4 advil in a day which is 2 aleve... ...for all day relief. "start your engines" so, we have assemblyman john bramnick here, i want to ask you, what will happen? we had john wisniewski on the show yesterday, he said four subpoenas this week, you're all back in trenton this week. are you as republicans walking off -- >> that's my point. we don't know. he announces it here. what should happen is what governor kane did when he ran the 9/11 commission. wisniewski should be on television with somebody.

>> the republican members. >> we should show the public we're working together. we may disagree, he may outvote us, but we should do it in such a way that shows class. my biggest concern -- >> i need to stop just to clarify something. another assembly woman said she doesn't think the committee should be issuing more subpoenas, but talking about reforming the port authority, that's it. >> we should start working on reform on the port authority. everybody agrees that. >> he doesn't agree with that. >> ylet's go back to holly. i have spoken to her and other members, they all agree we would like to continue to work on this. but we don't want to learn everything through your show. >> but i guess i don't see -- >> maybe i disagree with that. >> i don't see how you can reform the port authority, i don't see how you can reform new jersey state government without

doing more of a investigation here. some of it falls outside the purview of the state attorney general. >> what are we looking to find out? there's no question -- not one person made an allegation it this governor knew about the lane closures before they closed. not one. >> no, no. >> but this goes beyond lane closures, this is about the hit list of 117 mayors how it affected services delivered to those people. >> you call it a hit list, but my years in politics -- >> a loyalty list. a black list. >> there are people you like, people you don't like. you want to call it a hit list, go ahead. that's the nature of politics in new jersey and nationally. >> that's the problem for new jersey. that's why new jersey has been the laughing stock for decades. when i worked for jon corzine, chris christie said i will run so that new jersey is no longer

the laughing stock of our nation when it comes to our political system and government. he made it more of laughing stock. >> very quickly, though, the point that jon makes is that you can't end -- nick did, too, you can't take politics out of the system. it's not possible. okay, so he's disbanded the office that was responsible for the hit list, whatever you want to call it. >> you think it's going stop? >> right. >> all you're doing is moving those responsibilities to another office. >> every governor, every politician knows who is on the team and who's not. >> the reason we're here, though, is chris christie came to trenton, he was tough no one disagrees with that. he made incredible reforms. the reason i'm making this point is this is clearly a backlash. i don't think john wisniewski or anyone else would be that interested if he wasn't such a -- i think a strong leader, others think too tough leader. >> but, there's -- i could say, look, he -- this was also a

governor who at one point ridiculed the press for asking questions about this. at a second point absolutely assured the press and the public that no one in the senior staff knew about this. he mentioned mike duhame at the start of the show. it turns out mike duhame hours before chris christie made that assurance to everyone, he was on the phone with david wildstein. he says there is e-mail evidence that bridget kelly knew about this beforehand. if chris christie is not going to hear about that, is not going to pause before going out and making that emphatic statement that he made, that raises questions. to me, it's not about did he know about this? did he hatch the plan? was he willfully ignorant in trying to run out the clock? >> or maybe he took the word that he worked with closely and trusted. i'm just guessing. my problem with all of this, we guess. about everything.

that committee can keep doing what it wants. we don't know anything. >> while you're guessing you're hurting reputations. >> but the subpoenas have taught us, we learned quite a bit. >> right. >> but as you speculate, you damage peoples personalities. reputations. that is distressing, disconcerting, problematic for the future. we have to be careful. you throw names out there, people think they're guilty of something. i still don't understand the allegations against mike duhane. >> the master report documents that he was talking to david wildstein, bill stepien regularly, and that he was, by the report's own definition, constantly talking to chris christie and received a warning, an hour before christie gave the press conference, that david wildstein knew with 100% certainty that bridget kelly had this memo. the question is raises is not what did mike duhame did wrong, but it's what did he do next? did he call christie or somebody in christie's office? that's what i want to know.

the report doesn't answer it. >> let's not speculate, let's investigate. you know, no one knows better about throwing out names to tarnish peoples reputations than u.s. attorney chris christie. look what he did to joe dorya, bob menendez. >> he was not u.s. attorney when joe doria -- he was not the u.s. attorney. >> we all know he had a heavy hand in that u.s. attorney's office. >> now you're accusing him of something. >> christie left the -- when the menendez thing happened, christie was there. the doria thing, people are debating. there's a lot of agreement on what went wrong. >> between fishman's investigation, we will get a lot of answers. i have no doubt about that. let's keep politicians away from destroying reputations during that period of time. >> one problem i have with that is u.s. attorney, state attorney investigations always leave a lot of stuff unseen. >> yeah. sunlight can be a good thing. we will talk about the -- the

criminal aspect of this the criminal investigation aspect of this, fishman, the d.a. is involved. i wanted to thank john bramnick, elizabeth for a lively discussion here. another resignation, newly revealed subpoenas, these are investigations at the port authority. that's straight ahead. on-line c, on-line c, that helps our members connect and share ideas to make smart business decisions. if you mess up, fess up. be your partners best partner. we built it for our members, but it's open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. buttons. what phones are supposed to have? one for each number. so-called smartphones have two, maybe three buttons max. that's neat, but what do you do when you want to dial a four? it's not so smart then, is it? (laughter) nice phone, dude.

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♪ we are entrepreneurs who started it all... with a signature. legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. and we're here to help start yours. . fewer than 24 hours from now the port authority's new oversight committee will convene with testimony from outside experts on what it needs to do to reform in the face of the scandal. the committee was formed specifically because of bridgegate. and it's in addition to ongoing state and federal investigations. not all of the outside experts testifying tomorrow have been kind to the port authority. certain port authority officials have expressed the certain feelings back. at most recent meeting of the port authority, chairman david sampson's governor chris christie's top appointee at the agency says critics of the

agency should be summoned to discuss how to improve operations. this came after sampson praised the oversight committee at its creation of the authority in the february meeting. >> while i would like to comment more specifically about some of the outstanding issues, i recognize that there are established efforts to examine the events that occurred. i defer to these procedures. and i trust that when the facts unfold, and they will unfold, the public will have a complete picture. >> samson declined to participate in one of those established efforts, the christie administration's internal review which came to a close last month. the other members of his law firm were also not made available for that investigation, nor were members

of the port authority interviewed as part of it. they weren't even asked. the day after the release of that report which recommended reforms be instituted at the port authority, samson resigned as chairman with christie announcing the news. >> he believes the best way to start a new era at port authority is with new leadership. in line with that belief, david tendered his resignation to me this afternoon, effective immediately. >> that was march 28th, three weeks ago. there have been more resignations at the port authority since then. this week asbury park press confirmed that another resigned from the port authority after 15 years on the commission. his impending resignation was reported by the "wall street journal" late last week which was included in an article about the latest investigation into the port authority, this time from the manhattan district attorney's office, looking at conflicts of interest on the new jersey side of the port's operations. a recent investigation noted sartor recused himself or did

not vote 36 times out of 85 motions during the past year because of potential conflicts of interest, the most of any commissioner. as of right now we only know of one person in particular who the manhattan district attorney wants to know about, the legal news website main justice reported this week that records of david samson's chief assistant at the port authority, patrick o'riley have been subpoenaed. he was brought in in 2011, a form port authority official not familiar with the subpoena said he met daily in an off limits war room in the port authority's park avenue south headquarters in manhattan with two other christie allies, bill barone and david wildstein. we reached out and they declined to comment to us. were the manhattan d.a. looking into his top assistant's activities at the port, governor christie's down playing of david

samson's significance the past few months may be severely challenged. >> the role of the chairman of the port authority is not an operational role, it's a policy role. i wouldn't expect david to be involved in day-to-day operational issue like a traffic study. >> i want to bring in lisa brenn brennan, who broke the story about patrick o'reilly. and brian thompson with wnbc is still with us, so is nick. lisa, the name patrick o'reilly, tell us who he is, what his role is, and your understanding is of why he would have attracted attention from the manhattan district attorney? >> first of all, the manhattan district attorney probably has a source for this specific information about patrick

o'reilly and the way he communicated with david samson, so they have a good source. and he is a young guy. he's probably now in his mid 30s. he got his start in new jersey politics back under jim mcgreevey. and he was brought in to, i think, serve as an assistant to mcgreevey's chief of staff, jamie fox. jamie moved to new jersey transit and commissioner of transportation, and patrick o'reilly went with him. and he got a very high-powered job at new jersey transit. he stayed in that role while at seton law school. he became a lawyer. after that he went to work at wolf and samson. you mentioned new jersey transit. new jersey transit plays a role in -- there's a new jersey

trans trans transit -- a deal new jersey transit struck without the mayor of hoboken knowing that new jersey transit would have a new station at this proposed rockefeller development site in hoboken. you reported here that the subpoenas asked specifics and n informed questions about samson to o'reilly, and that may be what they're looking at here? >> yes. and i think also that lalso tha had knowledge of pulaski and other highways. the way it sounds, o'reilly was given specific directives to call certain people, not certain

other people at firms and companies. then he would go out and do that. and hoboken, because of his ties with new jersey transit, it -- there's nothing that points to a direct thing that he did, a specific thing. but he was connected to all different sides of the operation. he was -- he worked at a firm with lori griffa, who is pushing hard to get -- >> she's at wolf and samson. >> right. >> brian, when the governor did his most recent press conference and announced the resignation of david samson, he downlaid the role that david played at the port, almost making him sound like a figurehead. to read lisa's report makes it sound like there's more involvement than that. >> we know samson's role was

more operational than just policy, there other sourcing. which raises the questions about the governor's ability to judge his own people. certainly he wasn't able to judge bill baroni and the dozens of appointee that put into the public authority. he wasn't able to judge what bill stepien, his former deputy chief of staff, campaign manager and his successor, bridget kelly, he wasn't able to judge what they were doing. for him to defend david samson, who he has always said david samson was his mentor and considers him close like that, for him to defend that when all the evidence points to david samson absolutely being an operational type of person. all of the evidence points that way. you know, the governor was fooled again. >> that's -- yeah. that's the question, too.

we learned from these memos there was one occasion, on january 8th when the bridget kelly e-mail came out that the governor convened an emergency meeting, and david samson was there. at that time, he pulled them aside and said did you have anything to do with this. other than that, he didn't sit down, samson did not sit down for this mastro investigation. he has not spoken publicly except for that one time. we have to squeeze a break in here. i want to talk more about david samson and the other part of this this resignation of sartore, another interesting development this week. we'll finish up with that after this. them in charge of making an unbeatable truck... ... good things happen. this is the ram 1500. the 2014 motor trend truck of the year and first ever back-to-back champion. guts. glory. ram.

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christie has continued to defend his honor. he didn't participate in the internal investigation. now we have the news reporting about his eyes and ears and operation from day-to-day and attracting attention. it seems to me the risk here for governor christie is given how close sampson is to him, a couple of things. isn't that what you do with an executive assistant? isn't that exactly what an executive assistant's job is, to be your eyes and years in everything going on? but put that aside. the governor's problem, it seems to me, and it's a political problem because he doesn't have any other kind of problem on this, is that he's damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't. he's a fool if he didn't know if it was going on. you can't win the battle. you've lost the battle. >> the thing i've been wondering all the time, is there a thing in between where he sort of willfully, so if you say, okay, he didn't know from the very

beginning, but he's a former u.s. attorney. he's a former federal prosecutor. he can pick up the trail on something oo easily. and we've got in in these master reports, you've got him being told a few different times, you know, as we just say, telling him, hey, bridget kelly, bridget kelly, bridget kelly. >> but steve, the narrative is now being made if you read enough articles. the narrative is being made that governor christie has had a long standing political ambition. nothing wrong with that. f if you don't have ambition you don't get to be a successful politician. but that he's had a long standing political ambition and that this u.s. attorney's post was a steppingstone. >> true. >> this is for a guy who was never really a prosecutor in his legal training or his legal experience. as a matter of fact, he was running in morris county. he ran for assemblyman and didn't win.

lost election as a freeholder. the stars aligned and he became the u.s. attorney. but not because he had a reputation as a great defense lawyer or former federal prosecutor or anything like that. when we talk about what he should have known as a former u.s. attorney or maybe should have expected as a former u.s. attorney, you have to keep in mind that this is a guy who has had ha political road map in front of him for years here. >> it's true. i guess the thing, when i say that, and maybe i should say not as a former u.s. attorney but maybe as somebody with common sense, the thing i h keep thinking back to is as all of this is playing out in december, and he is hering from duhane, okay, maybe they're thinking about january 15th. on january 15th the new legislature was set to convene, and everybody's expectation that that handle issuing the subpoenas and asking the questions was going to go away and the whole thing was going to go away. if you can be willfully ignorant for a month, no problem.

>> i don't think it was ever going to go away. once the story broke, i don't think it was ever going to away. it may have been done flitically. but there were a number of other ways this could have happened. and it just -- i think if that's true, then it was terribly naive. >> that will be the last word here. we'll be right back after this. the conditions in new york state are great for business. new york is ranked #2 in the nation for new private sector job creation. and now it's even better because they've introduced startup new york - dozens of tax-free zones where businesses pay no taxes for ten years. you'll get a warm welcome in the new new york. see if your business qualifies at startupny.com

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we are out of time for today, but i want to thank my guests. lisa nelson. brian thompson. great discussion this morning. thank you for joining us at home. melissa harris-perry is next. soe soe american express open forum is an on-line community, that helps our members connect and share ideas to make smart business decisions. if you mess up, fess up. be your partners best partner. we built it for our members, but it's open for everyone. there's not one way to do something. no details too small. american express open forum. this is what membership is.

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