"now with alex wagner" starts now. cliven bundy may have been sidelined, but the fight against the federal government, it is spreading, and it's come to texas. it is friday, april 25th. and this is "now" live from texas southern university in houston. >> texas land grab. >> land grab. >> land grab. ♪ ♪ >> cliven bundy. >> hailed by conservatives as a hero for standing up to the federal government over land usage laws. >> this is a sovereign state. >> refusing to pay fees. >> they want total jurisdiction and authority. >> this guy didn't pay his taxes. so i was confused to why republicans were rallying around that in the first place. >> they're the enemy of he's big government. >> texas rangers are gearing up for a potential battle with the federal government. >> cliven bundy is a side story.

>> this has always been about more than clooiiven bundy. this has been about the bureau of land managements per kating individuals. >> we're all thinking b.s. >> these would be the first people squawking if the medicare benefits were cut by $3. >> and our government is simply out of control. >> but they're these great anti-government activists. it's just pure b.s. >> we are live in houston, texas. the first stop on the msnbc growing hope college tour, and texas may be the new race in the conservative fight against the federal government. cliven bundy was a huge hero for the right until he turned out to be a huge racist. but while supporters may have abandoned bundy as their figure

head, they're not abandoning his cause. the new frontier is right here in texas. governor rick perry and the man hoping to replace him, attorney general greg abbott both allege the bureau of land management is attempting to seize 90,000 acres of private land along 160-mile stretch south of the red river, which forms the natural border between texas and oklahoma. >> this is alarming and disturbing because private property owners in texas have owned this land that butts up against the red river for generations. this is the latest system of what seems to be a government run amuck. >> the only problem with governor perry's paranoia, it's not private land. or at least it's not according to a 1924 supreme court ruling and court rulings on two land owner disputes during the 1980s.

and for those on the right, this is not about particular facts. it's really about something broade broader. >> they say look, this is the public domain. >> the key on this from my standpoint is the federal government already owns too much land. we ought to be having a conversation about how can the federal government divest itself of a huge amount of land holdings it has across the country. >> suddenly the blm has become the new poster child for government overreach. the new irs. formed in 1946, the agency administers 247 million acres, or about a third of federal land. there's no imminent federal land grab here. ch what is actually happening is this. the agency is conducting a periodic review about what to do with the land. land that it owns.

and the draft plan won't be completed for another 18 to 24 months. the final plan won't be released until 2018 at the earliest. whoo i is governor rick perry and the man who wants to replace him, greg abbott, why are both so upset about all of this? because slamming the feds is always good politics in the lone star state. the houston chronicle concludes, the blm proves useful for texas politicos and it notes greg abbott's gubernatorial campaign is already fund raising on the issue, sending an e-mail to supporters on thursday saying the candidate has fought back and telling the feds to come and take it. joining me now is salon's editor at large joan walsh and jim, you are a son of texas or at least a reporter here in the state. as it turns out, the federgover

only owns 1.8% of the land in the state. who why do greg abbott and rick perry have the bees in their bonnet? >> well, thanks for having me. it's a good question. this dispute has been simmering in north texas, every since december when the blm held public meetings on this issue. and all the sudden in the shadow of the cliven bundy issue, this has become, you know, a popular thing to rail on and speak out about the federal land grant. but let me be clear, this is a totally different situation than the clive bundy issue, and it's rooted in two centuries of legal disputes, and it's really hard to untangle. some of the folks in north texas and talking to land owners are sorting that out.

>> joan, it doesn't seem like the right wing is going to take that excuse. it's going to use that excuse to bundle every conspiracy theory the right things into this very case. greg abbott tweeted this, and i kid you not, he actually tweeted this. this is about benghazi. we should have used the same effort to get americans out of benghazi as we do getting ranchers ou of nevada. why not talk about lois lerner and the irs and throw that in there as well? this is about conservative fear mongering. >> it's ludicrous. it's about fear mongering. you're exactly right, alex. it's all fun and games until somebody is talking about slavery was better for negroes. then they all scurry and run away and look for the next opportunity to scare the right wing extremist base. and they are playing with fire.

this is nothing to whip people up about. rick perry has nice new glasses. so he has to prove that he's macho. when did we talk about states rights? these people whip up fear of the federal government. it goes back to before the civil war. it goes back to reconstruction. some of us require the federal government to secure our rights. this is an old battle. they know what they're doing, and it's very dangerous, and it's kind of dirty. >> you know what, jim, let me follow on that. it's not just about rick perry and his glasses and proving something. it's about the fact that the state has become laboratory for very extreme policy. and you can point to a number of friends. i believe texas waited less than two hours after the supreme court handed down the decision to advance a voter i.d. law. when you talk about reproductive

rights and access to women's health care, it's been gutted by the governor. when you talk about medicaid, this is a governor who has one of the highest, if not the highest uninsurance rates in the country and is denying 1.5 million poor people in the state access to doctors. so when we talk broadly about the politics in the state, is there a chance that texas ever turns blue? that we move further? clearly some people have ideas about that. but in terms of politics, you know, given how much has gone wrong in the state. is there hope that the needle may move back to the middle at some point? >> well, plenty of folks are asking that question and alpining on the question. i'm not sure i'm quite equipped to answer that question. but i think there's certainly a bigger effort now than there has been in the fast to turn the state blue. we have to kind of wait and see.

>> joan, let me talk to you. you mentioned cliven bundy's comments on race. and as much as he was dise vowed by people who had not 24 hours earlier hailed him as a patriot, that remains the question of the anti-government, anti-federalist agenda. and adam on msnbc had a really thoughtful piece and revealed an important fact that after slavery, during reconstruction, there were a lot of white farmers and white politicians who argue that former slaves shouldn't be given land because it would amount to mistaken kindness. and it would prevent slaves from learning to have its free working men. some of that language has been sanitized and sort of toned down. we're no longer referring to slaves. but the hammock of government dependency is the same argument being used in the conservative movement today. >> right, inner city culture.

paul ryan's ideas about that. these are old ideas, alex. and particularly, when cliven bundy says i don't recognize that the united states government exists, he said that. you know, that's time for people like sean hannity and senator dean heller of nevada to say maybe i should back away from this guy. because he's probably a little bit unhinged and dangerous. but he's are old ideas. and even the notion that black people had it better under slavery because they have their chickens enwhatever insanity he said. they didn't have their children because they were sold out from under them. let's forget about that. these ideas are handed down time and time again. and then conservatives see them expressed a little bit crudely in language that they don't necessarily approve of. and they scatter. but as ruk perry is showing us, and as greg abbott is showing us

they're almost addicted to the poison of anti-rhetoric government and to the poison of fear mongering and scaring people about the big, bad federal government. they can't forgo this. so they move away from cliven bundy and come to texas and hope it will work out differently there. but you're always going to push it to this level where there is either an outburst of racism or violence. no one wants that. >> joan, what has happened it seems to me in the last two days is conservatives have tried to say, okay, cliven bundy is a racist. i aaplore what he's talking about. my question is how long can they continue to support parts of cliven bundy's platforms when this man is out today on cnn saying if i say negro or black boy or slave, if those people cannot take those kind of words, and not find them offensive,

then martin luther king hasn't got his job done yet. i mean, i just wonder at what point does this man become such a toxic vortex that no part of anything he's saying can be endorsed? >> i'm going to give people credit here who i don't always give credit. charles who, never agree with, he's come out and said i believe in the u.s. constitution. i believe in the government. this kind of extremism has no place in the conservative movement. we're going to need to see a lot more of that and we'll need to see about the rhetoric as well. it is on a continuum with this spectrum that demonizes all government. that demonizes law and really gotten out of control since we elected our first black president. it's kind of impossible not to see that that led to a particular kind of backlash that

republicans are often trying to step themselves out of time and time again. it's really going to require some tough talk on the part of conservatives and some of them are starting to talk it. and i really appreciate hearing that actually. >> well, we can't wait to hear more from conservatives dise vowing everything that cliven bundy stands for. thank you both for your time. >> thank you, alex. just ahead, president obama stopped in south korea as part of his latest swing in asia . i will talk with chuck todd about ukraine, russia, middle east and more when now returns live from the campus of southern texas university here in texas. nobody ever stomped their foot and asked for less. because what we all really want... ...is more.

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an urgent video conference with european leaders was focused on finding consensus on a tougher line with russia. at a news conference in seoul, the president said the u.s. is going ahead and teeing up broader sanctions against moscow. >> what's also important is laying the ground work so that if and when we see even greater escalation, perhaps even military incursion by russia into ukraine, that we're prepared for the sort of sanctions that would have even larger consequences. >> the warning comes as u.s. officials say russian forces are pulsing the boarder with ukraine. they are charging the border but

pulling up short. the latest maneuvers began yesterday, in response to the ukrainian government mobilizing its forces. they told the nation russia wants to start world war iii. joining me now from seoul, north korea is chuck todd. thank you very much for joining me. we are in very different time zones. is there a sense of frustration among white house officials given what is going on with middle east peace talks, which seem to be unraveling. the ukrainian prime minister talking about world war iii and the president trying to pivot to asia? >> well, i think that frustration has been there for months. the white house was very realistic about where things were going and for the longest period of time that in many ways thought john kerry, i don't want

to say they thought it was a fool's errand, but they thought it would be tex dreamily difficult. everything they have dealt with in putin has not gone well. frustration, sure. on the asia front, ironically i think the trip is going well. japan got what they wanted. got what they wanted to hear from the president. when you look at a couple of deliverables, yes, the trade deal, they seem to be still having hurdles in japan. remember the politics of this this united states isn't very good for the president himself. there isn't a sense of urgency from the white house to get this done before the elections. they're going to announce the big military agreement in the philippines. so of all the different things going on, at least the asia ya trip is going okay. >> in ternls of things not really going okay, ukraine seems to be occupying a lot of

bandwidth internationally speaking. one of the things most impressive is the way the president has been able to keep an international coalition together. with this latest round of sanctions, is there the expectation that is going to change things measurably? >> well, we'll see. i have to say, read between the lines of these readouts, and you know, when they do the official readouts for the white house about calls of foreign leaders, you do need to parse every word. they're very careful with their words because they know in translations they get lost. that everything is very careful. and the fact that at the end of the readout the bhous says the president noted the they are prepared to respond to russia's latest actions and the leaders agreed to work closely together to coordinate additional steps to impose costs. what does that mean? it means they have not yet agreed on a new set of sanctions. we know the white house wants to do more.

not just more targeted sanctions. the europeans collectively are not there yet. and even after their call, that did not happen. they know they have to do something. if europe can agree to do -- to be a little more aggressive, and it's my understanding they want to be able to this time say this is what we're doing right now, and if russia does "x", invades eastern europe, then we're doing this, period, because i think the president doesn't want to have to go back, keep having to renegotiate and recoordinate with a bunch of european allies that are not looking forward to the hit on their own economy that will come from doing actual sanctions that would isolate russia. >> to the relationship between this president and the russian president, chuck. josh rogan saying putin shut down communication with the white house. it's not a position i think this president thought he would be in this with russian president years ago.

the recent relationship has been reset on a totally different button. how bad is it from what you understand. >> the idea that he is now saying he is closing off channels, communication channels with the white house, it's not as if they were communicating well anyway. the only decent relationship is the personal relationship between john kerry and the foreign minister in russia. that would be the real problem. . if somehow he has to cut everything and he isn't somebody that the u.s. can deal with and at least be some sort of intermediary in this. then i think we would be hitting a level of communication breakdown that would be extremely troublesome. there's no illusions anymore. . the president knows he follows two other presidents who had one

expectation of a relation she ship with putin, and i'm referring to clinton and "b" and end up as they leave office with this guy is unworkable. >> chuck todd, thank you for my friends. you can catch chuck every weekday on the daily rundown. coming up today, the nra is hosting its annual confab in indianapolis, and executive vice president wayne lapierre. the guy who brought us the the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. his latest comments on benghazi and knockout gamers are next. so there i was again, explaining my moderate to severe chronic plaque psoriasis to another new stylist. it was a total embarrassment. and not the kind of attention i wanted.

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cut! [bell rings] this...is jane. her long day on set starts with shoulder pain... ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. [bell ring] "roll sound!" "action!"

remember the frenzy last year about the so-called knockout game. those who were randomly punching pedestrians and posting videos of it on youtube. the idea of the knockout game was a myth. a complete elaboration. apparently wayne lapierre is still a believer. he cited the knockout game as justification for, wait for it, more guns. >> we know in the world that surrounds us, there are terrorists, drug cartels, car jackers, knockout gamers, rapers, haters, campus killers, airport killers, shopping mall killers. when you are out there on your own, the surest way to stop a

bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. >> lapierre also railed against the media for quote intentional corruption of the truth. intentional corruption of the truth, of course, being something wayne lapierre is very, very familiar with. just ahead has john boehner relocated his moral compass? that's not a rhetorical question? the house speaker jabs fellow party members over their unwillingness to take up immigration reform. not surprisingly conservatives are already punching back. texas congresswoman sheila jackson lee and buzzfeed's john stanton join me when we return live. salesperson #1: the real deal is the passat tdi clean diesel gets up to 795 highway miles per tank. salesperson #2: actually, we're throwing in a $1,000 fuel reward card. we've never done that. that's why there's never been a better time to buy a passat tdi clean diesel.

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we are back on the campus of texas southern university. but first off on msnbc's college tour. speaker john boehner's tough talking alter ego also known as the congressman who would like to do something and leave some sort of legacy. that guy has once again popped out of his jack in the box. speaking to a rotary club yesterday the house speaker openly mocked them to immigration reform. >> but here's the attitude. oh, don't make me do this. oh, this is too hard. >> and he didn't stop there. he went on. i've gone to hundreds of tea party evens over the last four years, boehner said. the makeup is pretty much the same. you have disaffected republicans. disaffected democrats.

you always have a handful of an archists who are against everything. as if on cue a whole bunch of people who have been against everything made known they are still against everything. in a letter to president obama, nearly half the republicans in the u.s. senate urged the president to abandon his plans to find more humane ways to deport the immigrants. that would represent a near complete abandonment and the notion that the united states has enforceable boarders. well, if it's that bad in the u.s. senate, you know it's not pretty in the u.s. house. just this afternoon house majority leader eric cantor spends a memo to everyone involving their spring break. joining me now is the democratic

represent from texas' 18th district. congresswoman sheila jackson. >> wow, we are so happy to be here. >> i am so excited. so just let me just say this, go, tsu. dr. rudley and the basketball championship and the girls did great. we didn't want you to leave without your own tsu scarf. may give that to you? >> i need this congresswoman, let me ask you, we're in texas where immigration is a subject of much debate. we played the video of speaker boehner making fun of people in his own caucus and kind of being mean to them. my question is, where is that guy in the halls of congress? why doesn't he ever make an appearance? >> why don't we have a handful of leaders? that's what a speaker is.

a leader. you are right now at a university that has educated more hispanic lawyers than probably any other law school in the nation. it's a university. it was born out of segregation but opens the doors to all people. speaker boehner doesn't get it. he has to leave. right now in the city of houston we have done a poll that shows 75% of the individuals here believe that immigration is not a problem. in fact, it's a good thing because it builds the economy and gives opportunity. the senate bill has been passed. there's a lot of disagreement over the border security part of the detail. in the house we passed a bipartisan border security bill ready and passed with republicans out of the homeland security committee. and let me give you one last point, we had a discharge position where at least 20 republicans signed on, and you know what we're asking speaker

boehner to do, get in, be the leader, get going and put a vote on the floor, on the immigration bill and watch that vote pass on behalf of the american people. >> you know, on that note there has been a lot of outcry that the president might do something to try to keep families together. that he might have a more humane immigration policy, and that is met with stiff resistance and outcry from from the republican party. i want to point out a chart that shows deportations. along the border, they have risen. in the center and interior of the country, they have dropped. republicans want those numbers of deportations in the interior of the country, which is people who tend to be more integrated into society, who maybe have family members, the republicans are content in getting those people out of the country. those are some of the people that would have to be natch lized if we're going to do anything about the 11 million undocumented immigrants in the

country. they seem to be painting themselves further and further into the corner. no measurable is acceptable to them at this point. >> that's not only a corner, but hit has a lock and key on it. they don't understand what the 11 million people represent. they represent children in schools. they represent college students, high school students, families that get up every day and work. i just came back from mexico, meeting with the heads of government in mexico, in a t meeting that they were republicans and they just told it like it was. your deportations are not working for our country as well. we understand that every country has laws. but what is missing is the president's absolutely right. he is only being given to the laws. that's why the numbers have gone up 300,000. i happen to be in support of and one of the advocates of the inhumaneness of it. i believe it meets the standard of the eighth amendment. inhumane and cruel treatment. and so right now we are following the law. how are we doing it?

the secretary of homeland security is reviewing to look at more humane ways of doing it. we did it before. secretary director morton under the ice director, decreased the numbers of deportation of college students, for example. that was the deferred adjudication, if you will, for young people who came here through no fault of their own. has it broken the country? has it done anything to break the system? so we're looking to keep families together. you have to live in texas to see mothers pulled away from children, hispanics, haitians, polish, irish, irish are some of the largest undocumented persons. so to those senators who took the time to write a letter, i want them to go and tread the bill of rights and wonder if they would like to be treated that way. >> congresswoman, sheila jackson lee, thank you so much for your time and thoughts and my scarf. zblaung so much. and affirmative action should be

saved. >> yes, it should be. i want to bring in washington bureau chief john stanton. john, my question to you is how much does boehner's sort of what i call jack in the box maneuver yesterday, how much does that hurt him within his own caucus? do you think that sort of gets brushed aside, or will there be a chill in the air? >> i think by and large most of them have seen this from him before. this is not a new thing for them. he sort of mocks them to their faces about this issue. so i don't think for a lot of his members this is going to have much of an impact on them. >> let me ask you about the the the future of john boehner's spe speakership. we know they are talking about

the exper ration of his time holding the gavel. >> i think there's a chance. either there's the possibility h will get reelected and then get immigration through. but i think the fact he's not willing to sort of pull the trigger on the senate bill and bring it to the floor, or something to the floor on immigration is an indication he doesn't know yet whether or not he wants to stay in as speaker. so long as he doesn't push this through and really anger conservatives, you know, i think he's pretty safe if he wants to be speaker. i think it all depends on him. >> john, am i being naive in thinking if john boehner brought that senate bill to a vote on the house floor, he would not be run out of town. some people would say you did the right thing, finally. is there any chance that would happen among members of his own party. >> there are a lot of members who will t support him on that.

a handful will come out publicly and do it. a large number would privately say that. there are 40 to 60 members that would be an open vote. they would no longer vote with him on anything. he would be able to fill out h iz term and that would be the end of it and really have a chaotic leadership at that point. >> and would eric cantor try to rush in? >> i certainly think that would be his hope. if his leadership team were to go along with him, it could have blowback for eric cantor, mccarthy and others. so those guys will have to make decisions of their own if this comes to a head, which is still unlikely given what speaker boehner has been saying. >> buzzfeed's john stanton. thank you for the weather

update. coming up, state senator wendy davis is the gubernatorial hopeful who democrats hope will lead the charge in turning texas blue. she's also a trail blazer for women and politics. but for some conservatives, wendy davis is also their strange, paranoid obsession. [ male announcer ] it's one of the most amazing things we build and it doesn't even fly. we build it in classrooms and exhibit halls, mentoring tomorrow's innovators. we build it raising roofs, preserving habitats and serving america's veterans. every day, thousands of boeing volunteers help make their communities the best they can be. building something better for all of us. ♪

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we are back on the campus of texas southern university. and do not mess with texas women. don't mess with texas women. that's a big part of the message galvanizing support for texas gubernatorial candidate wendy davis. a poll this month shows davis within striking distance, just seven points away from her republican rival, greg abbott. davis told supporter this is week that despite the nay sayers, quote, there's something magical happening in this state. >> absolutely! >> and there are magical parts of the state that are also distinctly nightmare parts of the state as well.

it may be possibly that texas women are fed up with the conservative male dominated establishment in their state. one that recently vetoed equal pay legislation, gutted education spending and decimated access the to reproductive health care. joining me now from san antonio is the democratic candidate for lieutenant governor of texas, laticia vandepute. let me start with you. candidate davis -- i almost called her governor. perhaps not for a few months. said to a magazine earlier this week, there's a feeling from women across this state that enough is enough. do you think finally texas women have had enough. >> i think as i have visited all over the state from the rio grande valley to the panhandle and east/west texas and el paso, women are coming forth, and what they're saying is that, you know, i may not have always

voted for democrats, but this year i'm voting for wendy, and i'm voting for you. so definitely we are seeing so many women who are not just as concerned about women's issues or reproductive rights, equal pay, but very concerned about infrastructure and education. so for whatever reason, i think women will be doing a lot of voting, and maybe they'll just vote for their sisters. >> jess, let me talk to you. i think it's fairly striking. we talk about all the things that have happened to texas women. the way the governor has slashed funding for their basic health services. a number of restrictive policies put in place. at the same time, there's an all female ticket on one side of the aisle in the state. and that, if there is reason for hope, that progress is -- can be afoot, is, i think, just the existence of these two candidates on a ticket running in a state where we feel like so much other regressive stuff is

happening. >> it is really exciting. i got to be down in houston. i'm jealous of you guys there now. i got to be down in houston a couple of months ago as part of an emily's list event with leticia and the energy was absolutely electric. democrats were fired up. women were fired up. these two women are rattling the state. the thing about women voters is they want candidates who understand their daily lives. he held an education event in a school district that his attorney general's office is currently in court battles against over cutting funding. leticia, either of the men she could face wants to cut schools by billions of dollars. these are not texas values. they're not women values. it's very exciting.

>> greg abbott who is the current governor has said so strange things. he had to apologize for his association to a super pac calls boats and hoes. this is someone who seems to be operating on the fringes of sort soft texas politics. where do you think he thinks he's going with all of this? >> well, i don't know why republicans continue use people that are not just repulsive to most women in what their views are, but to men and to families. you know, right now we see that republican consultants are holding seminars and classes on how to message and how talk to women. you know, they wouldn't have to spend so much money in the first place on this if they just bothered to listen to women in the first place.

so what we see is a lack of respect and a lack of understanding that, you know, we bring value. we work. we have our fames. we have our careers. and for some reason, they don't understand what women do and the fabric of all of our families and in the workplace. >> jess, let me ask you before we wrap it up here, the other thing is that no -- everyone says all politics are local. in this day and age, these statements tend to go national. and greg abbott's association with ted nugent and what he said about this president and rick perry's support for various parts of cliven bundy's actions, it's the same thing they need to react to. the same thing as calling wendy davis an abortion barbie. whether or not the republicans

agree with the labeling, they then have to account for one way or the other. and it doesn't seem like, i think, some of these local and state politicians have really firmly understood the broader implications of this rhetoric. >> i think you're absolutely right. and the rhetoric wouldn't matter if it weren't attached to pa policy agenda. . skpr legislation from which hurts women and families across the country. ted nugent would be a blip. this would all be a little thing we had to deal with in the silly season of politics. kbhept that the republican party nationwide in washington and houses across the country are pursuing an agenda that makes life harder for women and families. they're against equal pay. they're against education funding. they're against access to health care. that's why this rhetoric is really quite -- instead of being infuriating, it's actually quite terrifying. >> leticia, one more question to you. . you're in the race. wendy davis is down by seven

points. some people will say it's nothing. some people will say it's a lot. how optimistic are you that you will see some ladies in the governor's house and in the state house at the top come november? >> well, if the responses that we are getting are any indication of the l level of support, we see this enthusiasm throughout. whether it's through e-mails or personal experiences. whaps is when the other party keeps saying things that are ludicrous and offend women, what they don't understand is when they put the policies in place, it hurts the economy. women play a great role in our texas economy. they better learn that women will vote. >> do not mess with texas women. thank you boelt both for your time. coming up, we'll have more live

from the campus of southern texas university in houston. this is mike. his long race day starts with back pain... ...and a choice. take 4 advil in a day which is 2 aleve... ...for all day relief. "start your engines"

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that is all for now! i love you, houston! thank you, texas southern. i'll see you back in new york city at 4:00 p.m. eastern on monday. "the ed show" is coming at you next. good evening, americans. welcome to "the ed show" live from new york. i'm ready to go! let's get to work. >> let me tell you something about what i've seen with the negro community. i feel like what i said i said from my heart. and i often wonder, are they better off as slaves?