>> i think that particularly is true around issues like telecommunications or banking regulation, which aren't big kind of big issues a lot of people pay attention to. it's much easier to get bad legislation that lobbyists are functionally right. sam seder, david frum from "the atlantic." thank you both. that is it for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. good evening, rachel. >> good evening, chris. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. big show tonight. there's lots to report including the unanimous decision by a subset of nba owners tonight to move forward with forcing the owner of the l.a. clippers to sell his basketball team after he got a lifetime ban from the sport earlier this week when racist remarks of his turned up on the internet machine. also on the show tonight, it turns out there has been a very unexpected ending to the old cliven bundy militia standoff thing in nevada. if you thought that story was over, congratulations, you're right. it is. but what got left behind there physically after the story turns

out is truly weird. and we've got the details on that coming up. we've also got news tonight out of oregon that i have to tell you, we'll peek behind the scenes. we spent three days fact-checking this story out of oregon because i personally did not believe it. i thought we were being punked. but after three days of checking i am now satisfied that this is a true story. and if it is in fact a true story i think it is the best story of the year so far in terms of this year's elections and running for congress. so we've got lots going on tonight. we've got a big show. but we start tonight in tulsa. tulsa, oklahoma. the cbs affiliate in tulsa, oklahoma is called kotv. and they did something in their local newscast tonight in tulsa that's very unusual for local news. they re-aired a segment from their own station that they had first shown nine years ago in 2005. now, if you are a fan of this show, particularly this segment on this show, you'll know that

we are constantly showing historical old news footage on the show. that's because of a personal weakness of my own. but for a local news station in their drive-time, 5:00 news broadcast to show an old segment like that, that's a strange decision. but considering the context of what's going on right now in the tulsa media market, what they did today at kotv, it makes a lot of sense. watch this. this is what they showed. >> we sent people to this place from the four corners of oklahoma to cut deals and make laws. their pictures line the back hallways, faces lost to history. we don't remember them. but every day we live by their decisions. one of them, sent to the house by the voters of south tulsa in 1974, wishes desperately that he could step back in time and recast one of his votes. instead bill weissman, soon to be a priest in the episcopal church, grapples with the conscience of an up-and-coming lawmaker who failed in the clutch and the muffled anguish

of condemned men. >> it's a terrible thing to have one's most notorious reputation be based on coming up with a new way to kill people. >> this is an interview that kotv in tulsa taped in 2005, with the man who wrote the world's first lethal injection law. the protocol was dreamed up by the state medical examiner in oklahoma. he's the first person who came up with the idea for and a recipe for lethal injection. but when it came to propose it as law, the first state law in the country to prescribe injecting people with deliberately misused pharmaceuticals as a way of killing them, when it kim time to do that, bill wiseman in oklahoma was the first man who did it anywhere in the country. and nearly 30 years after he did that, in this interview from 2005, he could still remember the language of that bill from the '70s and he could still treb by heart. >> it said an intravenous saline

drip shall be established into which will be introduced a ultra short acting barbiturate in combination with a chemical paralittic. >> in 1977 oklahoma became the first government in the world to adopt death by lethal injection. and bill wiseman, who so hates of idea of taking human life, gained his footnote in history. >> i don't hear the word "lethal injection" or "execution" or anything else without feeling a tug because it's tied to me. i'll always be tied to it. >> reporter: and now with his recipe pour death having spread to 37 states, wiseman fears thain stead of make capital punishment more humane he's made it instead even easier for squeamish judges and juries to order the ultimate penalty. a man of deep faith who lost his moral bearings at a critical moment, who still mourns the character and courage that slipped away that day so long ago. and if there's to be a final

judgment, who waits to hear his life's verdict? >> but how does the man who came up with the recipe for lethal injection, what does he do on judgment day? >> the same thing everyone else does. throw ourselves on the mercy of god. say that we have done wrong and we're sorry. >> it's easier i think to shape your newscasts in such an overtly religious way when you're broadcasting in a place like tulsa, like kotv does. so it's interesting to see if its own right. but it is also fascinating that they remembered and then they found from their archives from 2005 and then they re-aired tonight that interview, nine years after it ran the first time. because now it is not just the man who invented lethal injection who fell into moral and political turmoil because of it, left politics and joined the priesthood. now it is not just his personal story in oklahoma. now it is the state of oklahoma and to a certain extent the rest of the states in our country

that are still executing people, who have fallen into turmoil as well because of the events of this week. in oklahoma specifically, part of the political turmoil is over the overt and aggressive political interference that effectively forced the carrying out of the execution in oklahoma this week that went so terribly wrong and made national headlines. when the two prisoners who were set to be executed on tuesday night raised questions about the untested experimental drug combination that was going to be used for the first time to kill them, the state supreme court in oklahoma agreed that their execution should be delayed until some of those questions could be resolved. it was only after the state's governor, republican mary fallin, responded to that ruling by calling it an outrage and saying the state was going to go ahead with the executions anyway, never mind the supreme court, and only after republican state lawmakers responded to her by saying they agreed and they threatened to impeach justices who voted for that delay, it was only then that the supreme court reversed itself, they caved and ruled okay, that executions can

go forward under that intense political pressure. >> as it turns out, substantively, it seems like prisoners questioning the state's secrecy around the drugs and where they got them and whether or not they would work, those questions really did need but under mary fallin's political pressure the state rushed ahead with those killings and they rushed ahead with disastrous effect. so there's good reason for the turmoil over this issue in oklahoma specifically. but there's also good reason for national concern about this issue as well and that's because of the supreme court. when the supreme court took a case that would let them rule on whether or not killing prisoners with injected pharmaceuticals was the kind of thing that violated our constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment, the supreme court chose a case to rule on that issue that was specifically from the state of kentucky. kentucky's a state where the three-drug protocol for killing people this way very specifically followed that recipe that was first written into law by oklahoma legislator turned priest bill wiseman.

but states all across the country copied that protocol. first a sedative called sodium thiapent ol. then something to paralyze you. then something to stop your heart. that three-drug combination specifically is what the supreme court ruled on in 2008. that specific combination is what they ruled to be constitutional. the court essentially said it's unconstitutional to inflict too much pain while killing a prisoner. that's cruel and unusual punishment. and the eighth amendment says you can't do that. but they said if a state follows this standard combination that kentucky is using, that oklahoma invented, the standard combination of drugs that basically everybody across the state is using, if you follow that combination then the supreme court said there isn't a constitutionally significant risk of significant pain. and so the execution can go ahead. and the court ruled very specifically on exactly the combination that bill wiseman first spelled out in law and that dozens of other states soon followed. the ruling from the supreme

court in 2008 mentions the phrase sodium thiopentol 47 different times. because it was specific. that's what they were evaluating. they specifically ruled that drug combinations starting with sodium thiopentol were constitutional because if they started with sodium thiopental it wouldn't cause too much pain. there's no more sodium thio pental. it's no longer made in this country or imported into this country and no states still use that drug in their lethal injection protocols. and that lethal injection protocol involving that drug, that's the one the supreme court said was legal. what about the rest of them? since the states started tinkering around looking for other drugs to use instead of sodium thiopental there's been case after case after case of executions going on for extended periods of time, people appearing not to be unconscious when they are killed, people saying things like "you're butchering me" or "i can feel my whole body burning" before they

die. and then of course two nights ago in oklahoma another untested drug combination went so wrong that authorities tried to stop the execution after it was already under way. and in that crisis context with the state trying to stop an execution they already started and then calling off another execution that they were going to do in the same room on the same gurney with the same drugs and the same personnel less than an hour after the first execution went wrong, with the state now calling off all executions and the governor who was in such a rush to get those prisoners killed announcing a review of a policy she was so confident in last week she defied the state's constitution to try to force the courts to go ahead. at a moment when states around the country are on shaky constitutional ground with these new experimental combinations they're trying on these guinea pig prisoners, where the question of whether the supreme court ruling blessing the legality of lethal injection executions even applies to these new experimental drug combos

they're now trying in the states, with all of that in motion now today the state of oklahoma released new granular details about what they say happened. they released their own new account of what happened and a lot of it is very different from what we understood from eyewitnesses on tuesday night. or in fact from what the state had previously explained. before they released this new timeline today, this was what was on the record from the state explaining what happened. >> ladies and he-j i'm going to make this a short statement. i will not be taking any questions. so please don't scream and holler at me. but i'm going to let you know what i know at this point in time. as those that were inside witnessed, it was determined that he was sedated at approximately seven minutes into the execution. at that time we began pushing the second and third drugs in the protocol.

there was some concern at that time that the drugs were not having the effect. so the doctor 06sobserved the l and determined that the line had blown. after conferring with the warden, aunknown how much drugs had went into him, it was my decision at that time to stop the execution. at approximately 7:06 hours the inmate suffered what appears to be a massive heart attack and passed away. that is it. that is all my statement. that is all the information i have at this time. >> sir, can i just ask you one quick question? at what point what drugs were being administered that this started happening -- >> as i said, we pushed all three drugs and we determined that it was not having the side effect. so we checked and the line had blown. >> why did you decide to lower the curtain? >> so the physician could check the vein. and that's for the privacy of

the -- >> when did he pass away? >> 7:06 hours. >> what does the line is blown mean? >> the vein blew. >> the vein blew? >> yes. >> crockett's vein? >> yes. >> what does that mean? >> his vein exploded. >> his vein -- what does it mean? what does it mean the vein blew? it means the vein exploded. his vein exploded? yes. where was he when he died? he was inside the execution chamber. that's interesting, right? what does it mean to say a vein exploded? what happened in there? reporters clearly trying to get at the overall question of whether the thing that happened tuesday night in oklahoma is something that could happen again if they tried to do this again. was this a one-off freak occurrence or did something go wrong in the procedure here? well, today the state tried to

clear up some of the details by releasing a new timeline of what happened. and it really does tell a pretty different story than what we were told before. this is what they released today. 5:27 p.m. so a half hour before the execution was supposed to start. "phlebotomist enters execution chamber to determine appropriate placement for iv. the flebt mift examined the man's left and right sxarmz left and right legs and both feet to locate a viable insertion point. no viable point of entry was locate theed. the doctor then examined the offender's neck and then went to the groin area." at 6:18 p.m., so 51 minutes into trying to find a vein, they say, "the iv insertion process is complete. insertion point was covered way sheet to prevent witness viewing of the groin area." in fact eyewitnesses later said the entire bod yift prisoner was covered with that sheet up to his neck. at 6:20 p.m. phlebotomist exits execution chamber app at 6:18

they got it into him somehow. we don't know quho did it. but two minutes after that the phlebotomist left. the state protocol in oklahoma says if you're being legalitily injected by the state you're supposed to get the drugs pumped into your arms, into both arms at once. that's the written protocol that the state has put out. that's why it didn't make sense on tuesday night when they were saying it was a blown vein, that it was a vein failure that caused the botched execution. if the protocol calls for you to be injected in both arms at once, blowing one vein shouldn't stop the process. now today they say actually he was being injected not according to protocol in his arms but rather in his groin. presumably that means in his femoral artery. frankly, that's the kind of thing that your run-of-the-mill phlebotomist usually wouldn't do. they don't say whether the doctor did the iv insertion into his femoral artery or the flebotom sichlt t. that's a more vabsed medical procedure than your typical blood draw or setting up your

typical iv line. then according to the state seven minutes after they started administering the first drug, the sedative, through that iv line that they inserted into his groin, the doctor in the execution chamber said that the prisoner was still conscious. three minutes after that the doctor said okay, now he's unconscious. and that was their cue to start adding the other two drugs, the one that paralyzes you, including your lungs, so you asphyxiate to death, and the one that is supposed to stop your heart. but then the official oklahoma timeline that they released today sits silent for nine minutes and doesn't mention anything about what happened next. we know from eyewitnesses who were there to see it that three minutes after they shot the paralyzing drug and the drug that's supposed to stop your heart into him, three minutes after they started those drugs it became clear to witnesses that he actually was not unconscious. if you're unconscious, you don't move and you don't speak. he moved. he writhed in apparent pain. he spoke and strained against the straps holding him down. he was not unconscious.

and the witnesses saw him writhe and twitch and kick and speak for six minutes. then it's only after they saw that for six minutes where the state of oklahoma decided to pull down the blinds. sought witne so the witnesses couldn't see what was going to happen next. they say at that point the phlebotomist and the doctor checked the iv line and for the next 14 minutes behind the closed shades with no witnesses seeing what was going on "the doctor reported that the blood vein had chanced and that the drugs had either absorbed into tissue, leaked out or both." "the warden immediately contacted the director of corrections by phone and reported the information to the director. the director asked the following question. have enough drugs been administered to cause death? the doctor responded, no." this seems like a really important point. not enough drugs had been given to him to kill him. that was the point of view of the doctor who was monitoring the execution. have enough drugs been administered to cause death?

the doctor responded no. then the warden asked the doctor another question. the director asked, is another vein available? and if so, are there enough drugs remaining? the doctor responded no to both questions. so then the corrections director asks the crucial question again. "the director requested clarification as to whether enough drugs had been administered to cause death. the doctor responded no." and all of that discussion took until 6:56 p.m. the blinds had been shut to the witnesses for 14 minutes at that point. no one could see what happened. but at 6:56 p.m. the director of corrections k5u8d off the equities koougs. that's the phrase they use. "director calls off execution." the execution process was ended. because after all, the doctor on the scene said they had not gotten enough drugs into the man to kill him. who knows what they're talking about when they say the vein they were using exploded. but they say they did not have the option to continue to try to get more drugs into him through that vein or artery since it

didn't even work the first time and then they said the vein exploded. they said the drugs had either absorbed into tissue or had leaked out, didn't work the first time. so the doctor said they had not gotten enough drugs into him to kill him. they had no physical means by which they could get any more drugs into him at that point. and besides, they didn't have any more drugs anyway. they were out. so with him still alive under those circumstances and no way to keep killing him, they called it off. and they kept the blinds down. and then ten minutes after that they said he was dead. how did they kill him? the state of oklahoma says it failed in its efforts to kill him with drugs when they first started injecting him. they did not have any more drugs or any other means of injecting him after that first try. but then while the blinds were drawn, when witnesses said it was not at all clear to them if the man was alive or dead when his lawyer said he assumed at that point they were going to try to resuscitate him, try to revive him. when they stopped trying to kill

him by a lethal injection process that did not kill him, he somehow died anyway, behind the closed blinds. so how did they kill him? they've now shipped his body out of state. they've shipped his body to texas. the dallas medical examiner would not confirm it to us when we contacted them today, but the associated press reports that dallas is where they are doing the autopsy on this man's body. there is no written protocol in oklahoma for what to do if you want to stop an execution once you've started it or what to do if one goes wrong. oklahoma refuses to say if they spent that unaccounted for time behind those closed blinds after they called off the execution. they refuse to say whether or not they tried to resuscitate the man, whether they tried to keep him alive. what they did to revive him if anything. they won't say what they did at all for that time. but somehow after concluding that trying to legalitiy letha him wasn't going to kill him he died. how does this make sense? what happened in that room, and how do we know if it was legal?

joining us now is dr. david weisel. he's an anesthesiologist, an associate professor of anesthesia at harvard medical school. he's testified in several death penalty cases. dr. wechlt isel, thank you for being with us. >> thank you, rachel. >> first let me ask you if i'm -- i'm a layman, i have no medical background at all. did i say anything wrong there in terms of the different drugs involved there and what they are supposed to do? >> actually, there is one thing i'd like to correct because many of your viewers are probably patients at some point. a blown vein is a colloquial term we use to mean that the iv catheter is no longer successfully infusing into the vein. and it can be just because the catheter fell out of the vein or could be because the vein ruptured, which is not uncommon. it happens when you fall and have a bruise. so your viewers shouldn't be concerned if they hear a physician use that term with them. >> so when the director of corrections was asked to clarify that point exactly by those reporters in the room, they said what do you mean the line was blown, he said the vein exploded

and he sort of made a gesture like this with his hands. does that -- are you saying that that also comports with that sort of colloquial description of what might happen with an iv? >> we would use the term "ruptured." exploded seems a rather dramatic term. >> okay. the three drugs that were used in this combination, the sedative first, followed by these other two drugs, how are they supposed to work to kill a person? >> well, they're intended very similar to what was described back in the late '70s, the first drug, the medas lam is to put the inmate to sleep. the second drug, the pairlittic, is to prevent the inmate from moving. and that's mostly for cosmesis. that does no advantage toward causing the inmate's death. it's merely to make it look pretty. the third drug, the potassium chloride-s designed to stop the heart, and that is what kills the inmate. >> so in terms of that second drug you're saying it's essentially there for the witnesses' benefit so that you

don't see the prisoner writhe or move or physically react in any way. i guess the other side of that coin, does that also mean that if you are seeing the prisoner move or speak or writhe in some way it means that that second drug, that paralyzing agent hasn't taken for some reason? >> that's correct on both points. >> okay. based on the eyewitness descriptions and the information released by the state in terms of the way he reacted, does it seem like -- can you tell from those observations if any of the drugs had their intended effect? >> based on what i have heard, it strikes me that some amount of the midazolam got into the inmate because he did appear to fall asleep at some point. and then it does seem that the iv became blown or that was no longer in place, so that when the injection of the second and third drug, the paralittic and the potassium chloride, caused a significant amount of pain

because it was being injected into the soft tissue and so he responded to it. >> so meaning the blown vein in this case losing the iv connection as intended might have meant that the needle went through the side of his artery, through the side of his vein into his soft tissue, that's where the rest of that medication -- medication, i can't call it that. the rest of those pharmaceuticals went. they went basically into his leg, into his groin, instead of into his bloodstream? >> correct. >> and that would be a very painful thing? >> yes. >> in terms of how he died, a heart attack -- when they say that potassium chloride is designed to stop your heart and they also say that the cause of death here at least as far as they can tell is a massive heart attack, is -- do those two things make sense? does it seem like the potassium chloride designed to stop his heart, whether or not it was injected properly, may have been what killed him? could it cause a heart attack? >> yes. first of all, a heart attack, or a myocardial infarction, is a very specific diagnosis.

and i don't really know how they came up with that. i'm presuming they saw his heart stop. and i would ko see two mechanisms for it. one is the gentleman had a bad heart, he was under a lot of stress, and he just had a heart attack just like people do and there was no way of treating it. the other, though, is that the potassium chloride or the paralytic agent was slowly reabsorbed to cause either difficulty moving or to cause an inkreis crea increase of potassium in his body which eventually reached a point to cause his death. >> and in that latter circumstance that would be a very painful -- that would presumably be a very painful process? >> i would imagine, especially given what the eyewitness saw. >> yeah. the reason i'm asking about pain other than just human empathy is because the amount of pain that a person experienced during the execution is important to whether or not an execution is constitutional in this country, at least the way the supreme court has most recently defined it. but i just want to ask you one

last medical point on this. in terms of the prospect of the execution having been stopped or them attempting to stop it, might it be possible to resuscitate or revive or provide some sort of antidote to somebody who had been partially legalitily injected with these chemicals in a way that wasn't working as intended? there's this large period of time that's unaccounted for where we don't know what they did. we know the man's lawyer says he assumed they were trying to resuscitate him. once they said the execution was no longer going forward. could someone be potentially revived or resuscitated when halfway through this process? >> oh, of course. but you need the proper physicians with the proper skills, with the proper equipment, with the proper colleagues to do this. i doubt they have that setting in an execution chambechamber. >> dr. david waisel, associate professor of anesthesia at harvard medical center. it's gory and hard to understand but it's really important in terms of the policy here. thank you. >> thank you. >> i appreciate it. lots ahead tonight.

including a really excellent story out of oregon tonight that will make you feel a lot better about congress than you already do. i promise you, you have to stay for that story tonight. it's amazing. stay with us. this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

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donald sterling from the nba for life after racist comments from mr. sterling turned up online over the weekend and an nba investigation determined that the words were in fact his. tonight we have learned that the process of actually separating donald sterling from his team has also now begun. today a committee of ten nba owners convened a special conference call in order to discuss "the process for termination of donald t. sterling's ownership of the los angeles clippers." during that call the ten owners in a unanimous vote decided they would "move forward as expeditiously as possible with that process." the nba constitution lays out a specific process by which an nba owner can be forced out. it will ultimately take a vote from 3/4 of the league's owners. but that process has now officially begun. and with this unanimous committee vote today it has not begun auspiciously for donald sterling if he was hoping to hold on to his team. the same committee of ten nba owners is going to reconvene

next week to discuss their next steps but it will take 3/4 of the owners in the league to strip him of his team. this may yet be a long and drawn out legal battle. mr. sterling is known to like to fight his battles in court. it's still unclear whether and to what degree he's going to fight this. but the nba does not appear to be wasting any time on this issue. watch this space. my vacation ph, i'm saving a ton of time by posting them to my wall. oh, i like that one. it's so quick! it's just like my car insurance. i saved 15% in just 15 minutes. i saved more than that in half the time. i unfriend you. that's not how it works. that's not how any of this works. [ male announcer ] 15 minutes for a quote isn't how it works anymore. with esurance, 7 1/2 minutes could save you on car insurance. welcome to the modern world. esurance. backed by allstate. click or call. welcome to the modern world. she loves a lot of it's what you love about her. but your erectile dysfunction - that could be a question of blood flow. cialis tadalafil for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment's right.

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trwith secure wifie for your business. it also comes with public wifi for your customers. not so with internet from the phone company. i would email the phone company to inquire as to why they have shortchanged these customers. but that would require wifi. switch to comcast business internet and get two wifi networks included. comcast business built for business. interstate 15 runs through southeastern nevada, from prim

along the california border, i-15 continues up through vegas, up through mesquite, up through bunkerville to the arizona border. recently reports started circulating that armed militia members near bunkerville had taken up posts along the interstate, along i-15 and nearby state route 170, wearing bulletproof vests and army fatigues and carrying loaded military-style weapons. people driving through the area have reportedly said they are scared by the armed influx of these paramilitary-looking guys. local residents have been calling the police chief and asking if it is safe to drive through their own neighborhoods. the self-style militia men live along the highway. they live along the interstate. they sleep in tents at night. reports have also started to circulate that these armed militia men have even started to set up armed checkpoints on local roads, requiring people who live in the area to prove it before they allow them to pass through. here's a photo that reportedly shows a member of an armed militia at a checkpoint in

nevada. no, this isn't eastern ukraine on a dry day. this is nevada, and that's an armed volunteer militia man manning a checkpoint. it turns out all of these militia men and their armed checkpoints for local residents, they're all of course linked to this guy. the whole cliven bundy let me tell you what i know about the negro cattle-grazing armed standoff. from a national media perspective it is over. even our friends at the fox news channel are finally over it. but for the people who live where that standoff happened, for the people who are residents of bunkerville and surrounding communities, it isn't over. even two weeks after the showdown with the bureau of land management it isn't over. the armed militia guys didn't leave. they're still there. and in some cases they are essentially trying to control who comes in and goes out of that area. still, now. democratic congressman steven horsford, the congressman who represents that part of nevada, he recently went to bunkerville

to meet with local leaders and residents. he ended up sending this letter afterwards to the clark county sheriff saying his constituents "fear for their safety because of these armed men in their communities." and he's asking the sheriff to investigate the presence of these armed bands of vigilantes in bunkerville. now, there's no doubt that the armed militias are still there. this is a recent video of a group of militia men including a man who identifies himself as a spokesman for the militia talking about how it's their duty to defend what they call their battlefield. but of course because this is the fantasy world of pretend military, it's also worth noting that there are different armed militia groups in this area. it isn't just one big group of militia men with their, you know, ak-47s and they all get along and sing kumbaya every night before they bed down around the campfire and intimidate people on the interstate. no, it turns out they're fighting with each other. recent reports indicate that there is now actually quite severe infighting between the different armed groups of pretend soldiers. which includes putting up super melodramatic youtube videos and

according to them pulling guns on each other. >> he was assaulted. so tell us what happened. >> the gentleman came and he all of a sudden started running at me and hit me right in the chest with his forearm and put me down. >> so he came and forearmed you in the chest? >> yeah. he was running when he did it. >> and this is the tip of the iceberg of the cluster out there. one of our guys from montana, rick delap, who was there from the beginning, he's been out for two weeks in the dirt, two of the mountain men guys came up to him, were aggressing on him, then one of them ran back to his vehicle and grabbed an a.r. and came back with an a.r. in his hand and rick had to draw on him and the two ran off. that was this close to him having to shoot that ding-a-ling. >> they pushed me. and they had guns. it was terrible. i felt very threatened. these are the armed guys. what have you guys exactly been doing in bunkerville? aren't you the militia guys who descended on nevada and

basically declared war on the federal government because you had your guns that you got at the gun store? now you're all scared because other guys there also have guns and they're intimidating you with them? things are getting out of control, apparently, in bunkerville. long after the rest of the national media has left behind. the congressman who represents bunkerville now has this mess to clean up for his constituents, joins us next. there's a saying around here, you stand behind what you say. around here you don't make excuses. you make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up, and make it right. some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most.

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the guys came up to him, were aggressing on him, then one of them ran back to his vehicle and grabbed an a.r. and came back with an a.r. in his hand and rick had to draw on him. and the two ran off. that was this close to him having to shoot that ding-a-ling. >> it was that close to having to shoot that ding-a-ling. and that is what cliven bundy's neighbors are so worried about now. a stranger deciding they have to shoot somebody, maybe another armed stranger who came to nevada in the hopes of taking part in the great fantasy uprising against the tyrannical government, or maybe just a local resident who didn't know what to make of these armed outsiders reportedly setting up checkpoints and stopping some

local residents on their way home from work, asking for proof of residency. this is happening in nevada. not some other country that's at war. that's happening here. squlo joining us now is congressman steven horsford. he represents nevada's 4th district including the bundy ranch. congressman horsford, thanks very much for being here. it's nice to have you here. >> thank you, rachel. >> so what are your constituents telling you about their interactions with these separatist guys? from a national perspective i have to admit i assumed they would leave once their fantasy standoff was over. >> well, we thought they would leave as well, rachel. and that's what the residents who live in bunkerville and the surrounding communities want. they want these separatists, these armed separatists from outside of the state, to leave. and we're calling on the governor, senator heller, and others who made cliven bundy out to be a patriot to stand with the residents who feel very intimidated by the situation.

local businesses are being impacted by the loss of revenue. people don't feel safe. and it's totally unacceptable. and it's time for these armed separatists to leave our state. >> in terms of what they are describing in their infighting, which -- i mean, on the one hand it is hard not to laugh at them because they take themselves so seriously and they're so clearly living in a fantasy world. on the other hand, what they are describing in some cases are crimes, at least on the videotape that was posted that we showed a clip of before. they're describing an assault. people pointing weapons at one another in a threatening way. in itself is a crime in most circumstances. when you sent a letter to the clark county sheriff expressing those concerns including about this potential criminal behavior, has he responded yet? do you expect him to? >> he has responded, indicating that there is an investigation. based on the concerns of residents who've contacted my office about this. and it's not just the

checkpoints. it's also the fact that separatist groups themselves said "we're not to pull people over unless we have probable cause." you don't have the authority to pull anybody over. you are not law enforcement. and it's why we need you to leave our community. you're not providing public safety. in fact, you're posing a threat to safety. >> in terms of wanting them to leave, it sounds like that's what your constituents are suggesting most pressingly. how do you think that happens? obviously, it is a free country. and they can be where they want to be as long as they're within the law. what do you anticipate might be the best strategy of just getting them to go home? >> i think the best strategy at this point is for every elected official in our state, from the governor, senator heller on down, to join, to be united, to stand with the residents of bunkerville, the overwhelming majority who do not want these

armed separatists in their community. this is a community of about 1,200 people. they're law-abiding. they're concerned about their community, their children. they do not want these outside people who have ulterior motives in their community any longer. they want to return to normal. and we need elected officials to be united and send a united message that it's time for them to leave. >> congressman steven horsford of nevada, who represents the area that includes the bundy ranch and the surrounding towns that incredibly are still dealing with an armed militia men hangover from this story. good luck to you, sir. thanks for being with us to help us understand. >> thank you, rachel. >> i appreciate it. i should mention cliven bundy himself is now asking supporters to file criminal complaints against people they believe have acted illegally during the standoff. see if that happens. all right. still coming up, a story out of oregon that i told you you have to stay for. you really have to stay for it. you haven't heard this story

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this is an example of what head desk looks like and sounds like on tv. >> the interruption was not caused by the delay. it's just the speed of light. it's much faster than that. >> gentleman in that clip is named art robinson. he is from oregon in 2010. and that exchange about speed of light and satellite delay, that was not the weirdest exchange. amazing news, the only guy that has made me hurt myself on purpose on television, he's chairman of the republican party of the state of oregon. and he has done something that i wouldn't believe if it wasn't him. but you probably won't believe it anyway, even though it is him. and that story is next. hey kevin...still eating chalk for hearburn? yea. try alka seltzer fruit chews.

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peter defazio is not a permanent congressman but is running for his 15th term for oregon and running for the third time in a row this year against this guy who currently leads for the weirdest interview on this show ever. you have advocated that radioactive waste should be dissolved in water and, quote, widely dispersed in the ocean. >> the statements that you have just made is untrue. you have taken tiny excerpts from a vast amount of writing that i have done on this subject. >> can i ask you about something else that you've written? >> you can ask me anything you want. you're running the camera. >> you deposited in print, there was no editor, that aids was a government conspiracy, that the government was misclassifying -- >> i deny that. i never, ever in my life made a statement like that. you are lying.

i never made a statement like that and i know it. you are lying. the statement you just made is an outright lie. >> quoting from mr. robinson's newsletter, quote -- >> no way. you are lying. i've never in my life written that statement. >> only government classification of more and more diseased types as aids cases has kept the number of victims at politically necessary levels. you wrote it. i'm quoting it. >> that was art robinson, wacky candidate of 2010. art robinson runs something called the oregon institute of science and medicine. he's got lots of ideas. radiation is good for you. we should sprinkle it around the country for our health, aids is not true , schools should be abolished. in to 10, he had the benefit of a super pac that ran ads

attacking peter defazio and selling art robinson as a scientist, a new voice, a smarter choice. that outside group turned out to be funded largely by one guy, a hedge fund billionaire in new york. but his new york money made art robinson a contender in oregon. he got within ten points of peter defazio. seriously, the sprinkle radiation all over the country guy got within ten points. money is a very powerful thing. in their second contest, without that helpful outside money and with a bigger turnout for the presidential election, their second matchup, as you can tell, was not nearly so close. but art robinson wasn't done. last year, he got himself named the chairman of the oregon republican party. i am not kidding. and this year he announced that he would take on peter defazio and run for congress again. we actually asked the long island hedge fund owner today whether he would be backing art robinson again like he did in 2010.

if we ever hear back from the guy, we'll let you know. never going to happen. the money that he funneled through is gone. peter defazio has the "who is art robinson" site up and a flyer for art robinson is all over oregon. they are asking for donations but this time he's not asking for monetary donations. no, this time he's asking for oregon residents to please send them their bodily fluids in a jar. look at this. we first got this tweeted to us by kip anderson. we need your urine. could this be true? yes, it could. art robinson sent us a copy of the brochure today and it's real. he's researching ways to spot disease by looking at your pee. he just needs to be able to calibrate it and for that he needs 15,000 people to mail him a urine sample every six months

for the next five years. so this is not a one-time deal. this is a relationship. art robinson, chair of the oregon republican party and republican congressional candidate again is asking you to please promise to send him a jar of your pee twice a year for the next five years starting now. the need for pee is urgent. not the need to pee, the need for pee. mail in the form. they will handle the rest. even though he says that most people know him because of him running and running and running for congress, art robinson says it's not a political deal. he says it has nothing to do with politics. he told us tonight, quote, it's just my job. so the pee and the congress, they are unrelated. if you live in his district, art robinson would please like your vote. if you live anywhere else on planet earth and you've got to go, art robinson would like you to send him your pee