it can help improve connectivity. that's going to do it for "way too early." "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ good morning. it is thursday, may 15th. and it's just so pretty out. >> i went last night to kate's softball game. >> how'd she do? >> well, i couldn't tell because i went out in a t-shirt and it was 15 degrees. >> i know. what happened? >> this is just inclement weather. those climate change deniers, they make me mad. she did well. she's got a great -- >> she's got a swing, what fr what you've sent me. >> she had a big strike zone. >> big strike zone. boom just like that. >> did you call marco rubio about the weather? >> why would i call him about the weather? >> because he's a climate denier.

>> is there some left wing conspiracy already 30 seconds in? seriously. i come here, i love jesus, i love america, and all you marxists are on me. i'm 30 seconds in. can't i love the lord and talk about my little girl without you guys -- >> i thought we were talking about -- >> we were. >> his little 5-year-old jack says can't we all just get along. but he won't let me. >> we have mike barnicle, john heilemann, and in washington columnist for bloomberg view al hunt. hi, al. >> hey. >> willie are you okay? >> i'm good. >> take care of things while i was gone? >> kind of. >> sorry about the bruins. >> had to get out the golf clubs. >> say sorry about the nets. >> sorry about the nets. sorry about "the new york times." you know, i'm such a champion of

women's rights. >> i'm actually sorry about this. >> i am too. i think we have something to talk about knowing your value conference. >> yes. we already did, but this definitely -- >> time to pay -- it's a war on women. #war on women. >> no. it's actually just a dirty little secret. >> didn't that happen with "time" magazine too? >> yeah. until a woman took over and rectified the situation. >> she saw the salaries and said, wait a second. >> fixing this. >> why don't we explain this story? we talk in shorthand. >> i think you have to try a different approach. i think you have to try, joe, shush, in his ear. then i'll get to the stories. >> you told me to shut up. >> there's a major shakeup at "the new york times" as executive editor jill abramson has been dismissed from her responsibilities at the paper. at least that's the way "the new york times" puts it on today's front page.

publisher arthur sultz burger says the decision was made because there was an issue with management in the newsroom. however, there appears to be another issue at play. equal pay. ken of the new yorker breaks down a different side of the story. he writes, quote, several weeks ago i'm told abramson discovered that her pay and her pension benefits as both executive editor and before that as managing editor were considerably less than the pay and pension benefits of bill keller, the male editor whom she replaced in both jobs. she confronted the top brass. one close associate said. and this may have fed into the narrative that she was pushy. a characterization that for many has an inescapably gendered aspect. a spokesperson for "the times" disagrees. jill's total compensation was directly comparable to bill

keller's during his time as executive editor. the pension benefit was frozen in 2009. so, yes, there would be a difference in pension benefit. bill was a 30-year employee. most of that time spent prior to 2009. a lot of notes, according to sources, the pay gap was closed only after abramson raised concerns about it. he also reports abramson clashed with the company's ceo over a, quote, intrusion of the business side into the newsroom. as well as the hiring of a new managing editor for the paper's website. abramson was "the times" first female editor having assumed that role in september of 2011. she will be replaced by dean baquet. >> a lot going on there. first of all, the gender issue. looked at the salaries at "time"

magazine. found out women weren't being paid for comparable jobs and sall ris. now this. >> my instinct is to believe it just given my experience in the news industry over the course of 30 years. not talking about necessarily here, but we have our own story here that we've written about. so we can put that aside. that's out there. but, no, i read that. i was not surprised at all. >> a lot of deeply disturbing questions here. there's also the church/state issue where separation from editorial from business. jill had expressed concern for some time that business was creeping over too much into the editorial side of the newspaper. and she got big pushback from that, too, and was seen as a troublemaker. >> "the times" along with other newspapers have had serious financial problems over the past decade. "the times" also has a new ceo. formerly head of the bbc. he's been here about two years.

i assume his way of doing business is a little different than american publishers. but a couple of things about this story. >> and they clashed as well. >> yes. >> big fight. >> ken is clearly a terrific reporter, so i trust him and his sources. >> he's going to be on this morning. >> two, the aspect of equal pay that you've raised that is clearly part of the body of this story as with so many other things, the hypocrisy in the news business maybe artur ought to read his own editorials. >> war on women. equal pay for equal jobs. >> when you come into a job like this as a woman, you do notice these things. if you come in as a man, you don't. you're just used to it. >> let's get comments from another man, al hunt. >> am i right, al? >> she's right. let's agree with her. all right. so -- no, you're exactly right. and al, it's been a very --

again, some extraordinarily important issues that mika brings up accurately all the time about equal pay for equal work. again this church/state issue that goes to the heart of journalistic integrity. jill abramson weighed in, she leaned in and got even tougher on china. and so there's no doubt she also would be very tough on a business regime she thought was interfering with the editorial side. >> joe, i've known jill abramson for over a quarter century. i've worked with her. she's smart. she's tough.

she's fearless. she's loyal. i think she took the time -- she took a great newspaper and made it even greater. i think "the times" is a terrific newspaper today. i don't know what happened the last couple weeks. i haven't spoken to her about that. imagine if this had happened to the christie administration or the obama white house, do you think "the times" would have accepted that statement from him yesterday? i don't think so. >> that's a great point. what if this story came out from chris christie's administration? >> there's be a takedown. >> it would be like augusta national was back in 2002. >> that's right. the other thing, i'm interested to hear what you think mika. the other thing that troubles me in these stories i've seen in the last 12 hours is she was pushy, she was aggressive. she was run bning the paper.

that is her job to be push y i and aggressive. if it was a man, you'd never hear those terms. she was there half the time bill keller was there. on the pension side, so maybe there's discrepancy there to be explained. but the description of her, that's what you want the person at the top to be. aggressive and pushing things. maybe you don't always like it, that's the way it works. >> actually, it should be -- you know, when you remember someone in retrospect who was very good at their job, often you use those words. you know, aggressive, relentless, tough. and when you hire pop whether it's a man or woman, you don't want them to walk in the door to be like little mouses afraid of the shadow. you want them to be aggressive and tough for your business. so all of a sudden this is a negative point. >> it is -- and i've seen you

running our office. i mean, we have the dynamic here on the air where some people might talk more than you do on the air. but in the office, you run the office and you have to be extremely tough in the office. i mean, that's -- it is unfortunatelily, i mean, everybody respects you. but unfortunately it's very, very difficult as a woman. >> i think for a woman it's a learned behavior. i was on a conference call for the conference i'm having tomorrow in hartford and i was giving my script to a team of women. and i'm like, don't apologize. try and get in there and learn how to engage. look at them directly in the eye, own the table, body language, the whole thing. and i said you really can't shrivel up and self-deprecate and assume it's going to come in backwards. and they looked at me and said we can't imagine you ever being shy and self-deprecating.

i thought to myself, that's how i was for 20 years. and now i'm very fierce. >> is she self-deprecating? >> no. >> sometimes charmingly self-deprecating but also very tough. i would say perfect. >> say perfect. a perfect balance. but the pushy thing is true. >> obviously all true, but there's a lot more of work to be done on this. to be fair to "the times," they need to -- they're going to need to report this story out in a way they haven't yet done. >> can i just say one thing? >> yeah. >> this is the second high-level woman in the last two years that "the times" has dismissed, as they put it. janet robinson was the ceo. so, you know, this is a record that certainly is worthy of

examination. >> they did an internal investigation on that. so we'll wait and see. this game is a surprise to a lot of people. so the fact they have not yet done a big hard hitting long piece is acceptable in the short-term. we'll have to see how they cover it over the coming days. but it is true over the course of jill's tenure, there has been reporting by other outlets about the fact there was a fair amount of newsroom discontent and conflict that's been going on pretty much not necessarily from the beginning, but pretty much throughout her tenure. so it's surprising because it came out of nowhere, but not totally surprising if you go back and look at the tenor of the coverage and a lot of gripes from every side that have been coming out really for the last two years. >> yeah. the people describing her sound like a bunch of what you would think in a cartoon of conservative men. but they're all a bunch of liberals. which a interesting. >> it is interesting. >> do you find that often? because you are very -- it is like a men's club.

>> you know, there are great in news organizations i've been shocked by the hypocrisy. especially on women's issues through the years. especially on women's issues. i have. all these people that are supposedly so progressive and open minded on women's issues, i've been pretty shocked by what i've seen since i've been in the media for years. not much is talking about the hallowed halls of nbc news where we're perfect. >> no. we're making huge changes in the right direction though. i'm so excited about what's happening here. >> we are. but i have been stunned it is still a boys' club in national media outlets. my god, in 2014, the fact this discussion is even being had at the most important newspaper in the world just proves that point. >> i'm not surprised. senator harry reid is sounding off on everything and of course the koch brothers are among his

top targets. he tells buzzfeed, quote, if they think romney was watched closely by me, that's nothing compared to what it's going to be like with the koch brothers. this guy is -- the nevada senator promises multiple votes if necessary. corrupting influence of the citizens united ruling. which in his words puts the political process in the sewer. reid also suggested his recent comments to nbc news about billionaire sheldon adelson have been misinterpreted. here's part of what he told chuck todd last week. >> the two richest people in the world. and they are in it to make money. that's their whole goal here. is to add zeros to their billions. and i don't think that's the case with any -- >> you don't think that's the case with adelson? >> i know sheldon adelson.

he's not in this for money. he's not in this to make money. he's in it because he has certain ideological views. now, sheldon adelson social views are in keeping with the democrats on choice, on all kinds of things. so don't pick on him. he's not out to make money. >> he tells buzzfeed, i didn't praise adelson i just said on social issues he's good. but the point is there's too much money in politics. that's true. >> willie geist, he's the gift that keeps on giving. >> put him in context. >> you have to ask why the democratic party has him as their face running the senate. >> it's amazing. listen, he's got a point about money in politics, right? >> yes. >> i think we would all agree with that. something has to be done about it. but when he goes out every day and beats the same drum. again, it's obviously a political strategy. must be working in some races where he's using it, but as a national strategy, i'm not so sure. but if you're going to attack

the guys, get your facts guys. they're not the two richest guys in the world. they're not the world's number one polluters. all these things he rolls out about them to make the cartoon character. you don't have to like the koch brothers, but get your facts right. >> don't lie about them. i mean, don't lie about them. >> at least he pointed out the truth about sheldon. he's in it for public service. >> you think back in the 2012 campaign when harry reid was over and over again making the accusations mitt romney had not paid income taxes for a decade and he would say it every day. over at the white house which was delighted to see reid do that, they'd say harry's like a dog on a bone. and he's like that again. >> you wonder why the democrats let this guy run the senate when he says things like that. >> bill clinton is defending his wife against suggestions by karl rove that her health situation may impact her plans for 2016.

speaking at a fiscal summit in washington, the former president knocked down suggestions that hillary hadn't leveled with the american people about her concussion back in 2012. according to monday's new york post, rove told a los angeles audience last week that the former secretary of state may have brain damage. while rove refutes the exact wording -- >> i don't understand. help me understand. why would he say that? i don't understand. >> he's not smart. anyhow, here's what you get for that. take a look. >> first of all, i got to give him credit, you know, that embodies that old saying that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. first they said she faked her concussion. and now they say she's auditions for a part on "the walking dead." she works out every week. she is strong. she's doing great. as far as i can tell, she's in

better shape than i am. she certainly seems to have more stamina now. and there's nothing to it. >> do you think this is their way of inserting her age or her physical capabilities into the 2016 debate? >> i don't know, but if it is, you can't be too upset about it. it's just the beginning. they'll get better and better at it. i mean, you know, i'm still waiting for to admit to white water. >> don't do that. >> willie geist. >> i can't stand it. >> i told you once. oh, my gosh. unbelievable. >> don't do it, joe. >> there's a fake scratch. >> i can't stand it. >> willie, come on, man. he's the elvis of this stuff. >> that means he's thinking and not telling the truth.

somebody needs to do a body language expert about that. just saying. >> what are you talking about? >> when you do that. oh, stop, joe. you know exactly what it's about. do you want me to share with everybody? >> he's so funny. >> it's gotten very far though. it's worked for him. >> party's over. all right? still ahead on "morning joe," glen greenewald joins us. former governor of new york, george pataki on today's 9/11 museum dedication. and carly fiorina on women knowing their value in the workplace. that's all coming up in a packed 7:00 hour. then at 8:00, congressman and veteran of the air force adam kinzinger on why he thinks secretary shinseki won't survive the va health care crisis. and a special report from nbc's ann curry on the so-called

twitter diplomacy. up next, politico has a story that could concern most parents out there. we'll explain that next. but first, speaking of concerned parents, let's go to bill kairns with a check on the forecast. >> actually it's parents are concerned when he moves in the neighborhood. >> they do the checks and i'm not on that list. >> what lawyer did you get to get off of them? >> we'll discuss that later. >> that's terrible. >> not on that list. good morning, everyone. ohio and southern california, you are the areas of concern yesterday. look at this picture. this is an airplane landing into san diego. you could see three fires in the background all burning in different locations. how rare is that. then let me take you to ohio. you had severe storms. this wasn't your ordinary severe storms. look at this tornado rolling through the field. some damage was done. thankfully it was mostly out there in the farmer's fields. look at this.

that's up close and personal. let's take you into southern california. this is where the danger is today. yesterday we were about 99 to 100. almost everywhere in southern california. the winds are going to howl again today. and these fire pictures were incredible. these fires formed so quickly and spread so rapidly yesterday, the firefighters had no chance. there were about 30 homes that did burn. a lot of people were evacuated and a lot of fires will flare back up today with the gusty winds and hot temperatures. easily 100 once again in l.a. now to the east, we have flood watches from buffalo, pittsburgh, through virginia. even areas under a flood watch. a slow. moving storm is going to soak the east. we're going to have travel impacts. the airports will be a problem, then we deal with the rainfall. as much as 3 to 5 inches possible. west virginia to virginia. that's my greatest area of concerns. a lot of active weather out there. of course the biggest trouble, the fires today in southern california. washington, d.c. starting out with a nice morning.

heavier rains expected later on tonight. more on "morning joe" coming right up. ♪

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and with that in mind... what's in your wallet? ♪ it's time to take a look at the morning papers. >> that's a live look at the 9/11 memorial. >> memorial and museum. and i've got to say looking at "the daily news" and some of the other papers, i mean, the reviews on this museum from tough tabloid editors and journalists, just so strong and so positive. apparently they really got it right in there. >> it's been a long time coming. the national september 11th memorial and museum will hold its dedication today.

it is seven stories below where the towers once to do. it includes personal items, artifacts, and 2,000 oral histories. including final voice mail from victims to their loved ones. president obama and the first lady will be on hand for the ceremony. the museum opens to the public on may 21st. >> and from "the boston herald." 200 people con officialed dead in turkey's worst mining accident ever. 150 others still trapped inside after the underground explosion. more than 300 people have been rescued. rescue crews are pumping in fresh air. but a fire inside the mine is hindering the search efforts. >> "usa today" radio personality casey kasem was found in washington state just days after a judge ordered an investigation into his whereabouts. the ruling came after his wife admitted to being unaware of his

location. >> that's unbelievable. >> a spokesperson says kasem's kids are concerned about his health and will work to bring him home to california. the top 40 deejay suffers from advanced parkinson's and can no longer speak. >> and the kids have been trying to get control of him or at least get to see him for some time. the wife has kept him away. now he's wandered off to washington state. i think they'll have more luck actually being able to stay in touch with their dad. i grew up on casey kasem. every weekend i would sit in front of the radio. extraordinary talent. "the washington times," the crew of the south korean ferry disaster now indicted in the accident. the crew was negligent and failed to protect more than 300 people on board. the captain, the first and second mate, along with the chief engineer could all face the death penalty if convicted. 11 others are charged with abandoning passengers in need. >> let's go to willie now for a look at politico. >> yes. it's in live and in person today. >> what? >> mike allen.

he's here with us in new york city. >> good to see you. >> good morning and congratulations on the book. >> thank you very much. coming out on tuesday. it's been exciting. bill geist will be on this show next week. >> what's the book called? >> it's called "good talk, dad." we wrote it together. >> that's massive. like beatle mania. >> that's good. >> with a few more laughs hopefully. all right. so we digress a bit. let's talk about this big piece that you have posted in politico magazine today about data mining. we've talked now for a long time about the nsa. this is private data mining and we're talking about children. explain a bit. >> that's right. if you're involved with any school district, if you're involved with any schools either as a parent or working there, you should know about this. privacy policies at school districts and in states are very weak. and politico discovered that publishers of software, all kinds of electronic things for

kids track when they watch a video, when they take a quiz, when they play a game, when they turn a page in a textbook. collecting more individual pieces of data on students than google collects about its users. and school districts when they buy this gear and software could put more stringent privacy policies in, control who's done with this data. but often they don't. politico launched a cyber security site this week and this is one of the reasons this is going to keep being such a big issue in washington and for businesses. there's all these ramifications we weren't paying attention to. >> the idea here is to help children. if a child is struggling in one subject, the software can figure it out and try to help out. >> and do an individual lesson plan. >> what the the major concerns? does the school know how much data is being collected on their

own students? >> the schools paid no attention to this. there hasn't been a big data disaster. there have been data breaches with colleges including the university of maryland. but there hasn't been a big problem with elementary schools yet. but what we're finding on your first question, what we're finding is that school districts, even states, in an effort to help kids to move ahead, to be advanced are contracting with companies that offer great services and make big promises. but it turns out that they're also warehousing an incredible amount of data. not only do they own, but the states and schools don't even have access to. they don't even know what all is being collected. >> i think people are worried about commercial exploitation, right? the question of how do those lists and do marketers get ahold of them. >> as pa parent you'd like to be aware this is going on and try to stop it. read it on politico magazine.

great to see you. >> thanks for having me in. one video challenges the notion that dogs are man's best friend. the cat stepping in to save the day. in the middle of a dog attack on a little kid. but first ray allen proving he's still got it. coming up big for the heat in game five. highlights ahead on "morning joe." ♪ and much to phil jackson's disappointment, that guy, steve kerr, not coming to new york. thought that was a done deal. >> smart man. >> no, sir. shocker it says in "the new york post." we'll explain next. ♪ (mother vo) pregnant...

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all right. let's do some sports. pair of decisive game fives in the nba playoffs last night. we'll start with the late one. blazers and spurs. san antonio had to do it without tony parker. he left in the first half with hamstring tightness. it did not matter for the spurs. green and leonard each had 22. the spurs win. that closes out the series. san antonio heads to the western conference finals. in miami, nets ahead host of this game. up nine midway through the

fourth. looking good on the road. but lebron james, a big three here cuts the lead to five. >> wow. >> and this went down to the final minute. >> here's chalmers. gives it up. ray allen will take the three for the lead. >> that was with 32 seconds left. the go-ahead three from ray allen. how many times has he done that? it's incredible. >> i remember when he got traded to the celtics, simmons was asking whether he was too old to play. i love bill, but a lot of people were asking that question. this guy keeps producing in big games. >> brooklyn did have one last chance, but they lose. >> the nets couldn't get a shot off in the last 12 seconds. on two inbounds. horrible. >> so the heat take that one in five. they move to the eastern conference finals. tonight the wizards host the pacers trying to stay alive there. and the thunder visit the

clippers. the thunder can win this on the road, pair of game six matchups. a surprising move from steve kerr, the former gm and five-time champion accepted a five-year $20 million deal to coach not the new york knicks but the golden state warriors. this deal reportedly was for more money. the warriors have a better roster and will keep him close tore his family and farther away from -- >> jimmy nolan. >> there was the relationship with phil jackson. let's go to the ice. blackhawks in minnesota, ducks in l.a. >> justin williams out to center ice. for trevor lewis. lewis with a shot. they score! >> hail mary now. back in of the goal. out in front.

shut down. still loose. there it is. fowler off. two seconds left. that'll do it! l.a. kings have forced game seven! >> 27 to go power play. ricochetted in! and this will do it. you can hear the canadiens across the way in a relatively silent td garden celebrating they have won by a score of 3-1. >> montreal wins game seven in boston eliminating the bruins. in the west, chicago will face the winner of tonight's game seven matchups with the kings at anaheim. the canadiens move on to play the rangers in the eastern conference finals. the spotlight on the michael sam quest got brighter. the oprah winfrey network bought the rights to film his life. cameras for the draft were with sam when he was drafted and will

follow him as he tries to make the team. >> do you want that? if i'm a player going to the nfl, i would want to keep my head down. >> not as a rookie trying to make the team. >> do not bring television cameras into rookie camp following me around. i mean, if you want to be judged being a player as a player on the field, i would just guess you would not want cameras following you around where all rookies are treated like crap. >> yeah. also doesn't engender a lot of great feelings among your teammates who are not that hyped to seeing you get all this attention not having done anything. >> if you want to be judged as a player with judged as a man, i would think that's -- >> he's carried himself so well too. it's extraordinary he's been so good. i'm just theer play football. >> he needs to just play

football and not have oprah following him around. still ahead on "morning joe," rick riley is here. but first ken auletta. >> and we're going to talk about how "the times" handled it in a front page story. >> we'll be right back. ♪ [male announcer] ortho crime files. gross misconduct...

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♪ with us now, we got the contributor for the new yorker ken auletta. you causing trouble again? stop that. >> just having fun. >> you're just having fun. well, you know, mike barnicle was reading "the new york times" -- mike, as jill was walking out the door, they kind of elbowed her. >> yeah. slash and burn outside the door.

this is the front page story in "the times." elevating second in command. this is the third paragraph in. t"the times" front, miss abramsn had been since the job since 2011. but people in the situation described serious tension in her relationship with mr. salzburger who had been hearing complaints from employees. they had disagreements before she was even appointed executive editor. no quotes. really no names. i mean, come on. >> happens to be true though. she was asked to put out a statement that i'm going on to the great white way or new career opportunities. and she refused. she said you fired me, and that's what it should say. i'm not showing up in the newsroom today when you make the announcement. >> and of course -- >> good for her. >> -- you talked about her concerns about a pay disparity

dispute. >> tell us about that. >> and she went to confront "the times" about it. >> she found out she was making less than her predecessor bill keller as executive editor when she became executive editor. she also found out when she was managing editor as her predecessor had been before he was promoted, she made less money than he did. she also found out when she was managing editor, one of her deputies made more money than she did. >> oh, my gosh. >> so she was upset about it. >> one of her deputies made more money than she made? >> correct. >> so what happened? >> she went to raise what she thought was a polite protest, and it fit into a narrative of salzburger's mind that she was a difficult person to deal with pit and the truth is there are a lot of people in the newsroom who found her very brusque. that was one of the reasons why

arthur hesitated to appoint her. because she was worried she was rough with people. she was also immensely talented. >> if she only had the soft touch like most "new york times" executive editors have. because we all know you can have a soft touch like abe rosenthal. >> or you think of any editor. >> holy cow. can you believe this? >> he would be described as tough, fierce, polarizing, hard to figure out, maybe even scary. but if it was a woman i wonder if the same thing would be -- i mean, this is a really big problem. >> it is. al hunt, let's go to you. it's extraordinary that her deputy was getting paid more than she was when she was in an earlier position. >> well, i pay a lot more attention to what ken auletta is

writing than what i read in "the new york times" about this story, joe. that -- look, jill abramson is very tough. i've known her well for a long time. she also had people there who put their hand in the fire for her because she supported people. they did some great journalism. and i think you're absolutely right. i think if men had displayed the same traits, the adverbs anded a convectives i do think the prob have overall is this narrative of women being troublemakers because they do in to deal with pay situations. how about fix the pay situations so we are not put in this position? because it does, by the way, if you're paid far less by your counterparts or people below you because you're a woman, that will make you angry and that's

okay. >> and then you're labeled difficult. >> pushy. >> exactly. >> so was there a final straw, if this had been building up over a couple years. was there an incident that happened? >> multiple things happened. one is that this pay thing a couple weeks ago came up and she actually had a lawyer. >> that's so interesting. >> which ballooned in their mind she was being difficult. at the same time she was recruited a deputy to work on the online paper. he felt undermined by that because she had not according to his side of the story, she had not kept him informed. so he went to see arthur salzburger last week and then complained about her saying she was difficult in the office. and those things all came together and formed a view that then arthur confronted jill supposedly last friday and said it's time for a change. >> it sounds like a woman went in to ask for equal pay and was

fired for it. is that fair? >> i think it's broader than that. but i think it's one issue that helped tricker the larger issue. >> name any institution following up on what al hunt said earlier. in america, any politician that if they behaved in such a way wouldn't face a withering critique from "the new york times" for months. for months. any corporation, any politician. >> as i said in my blog post yesterday, "the times" always said we have a great relationship with jill, the ceo said. that's not true. if, in fact, a politician misled the public that way, it'd be page one in "the new york times." it's not page one in "the new york times." >> was there any issue with -- mr. thompson came from the bbc. is there any cultural issue coming from the bbc to "the new

york times"? >> i think there's an issue. they claim there wasn't. that thompson wanted to have more say about the digital newspaper. and about doing things native advertising that is more friendly to advertising. and jill was very wary of that. so that created a point of tension between them as well. all creating that same narrative. >> all right. ken auletta, thanks for coming in. still ahead, fundamentally change the way we think of government and made edward snowden a household name. glenn glenn greenwald joins us. but first a video of a dog attacking a 4-year-old and a little boy's cat who came to the rescue. that's next on "morning joe." ♪ when la quinta.com sends sales rep steve hatfield the ready for you alert, the second his room is ready. you know what he brings? any questions? can i get an a, steve?

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what do we have here? >> people say dogs are man's best friend. >> i coined that term. i was wrong. >> this is such frightening video at first. this child was nearly mauled. >> it starts as a horrific piece of tape. then this cat comes to the rescue. 4-year-old kid playing in his driveway. a stray dog in the neighborhood attacks the kid grabbing his leg

and dragging him. here comes the family cat. mom is right there to scoop up the little boy. the cat saving the little boy as he was being dragged. he gets up and runs inside. he had some stitches in his leg. he's okay, the kid is. >> explain why the mother ran away? >> she was looking for the dog. >> explain why the person filming this didn't help -- >> it's security cameras. >> it's different angles. >> those s.o.b.s. why did they just let him burn up? >> they have video all over their house. >> i saw this in nam once where the camera man just stood by. >> it's incredible. there's a lot of camera angles. >> well directed. >> it's home security. >> that's a lot of cameras. that's an amazing cat. >> i know emma would do it. >> colonel wouldn't do it for me. >> the colonel would have sat there smoking a cigarette watching the whole thing.

>> exactly. gets what he deserves. >> there's emma. that's emma in one of her shameless moments. >> the colonel is getting fierce in his age. >> emma goes after both my dogs and any dog that comes in our neighborhood. >> there's the colonel. >> we got two dogs. and one dog is very big and the colonel's already scared him off. >> well, good. >> by the way, i coined another phrase. >> i love the title of your book. it's fun. >> cats do the darnedest things. >> i'm going to write that down. >> all right. you're just complete idiots. >> your book. i can't wait to see you and your dad. >> it's fun. >> adorable. >> it's a just comedy. 268 pages of comedy. >> presumably your dad sort of carries you through the book. >> that goes without saying. >> i'm sorry, but you can tell

just by the title of the book, this is going to be a cbs sitcom. >> good talk, dad. >> it's good talk, dad in a sense griswold used to sate it to russ. and then just walk away. >> i like that. >> all right. what's next, willie? >> karl rove tries to derail hillary clinton's trail for president before it begins. bill clinton steps in. his defense of hillary and a look at how rove's attack is a throwback to what ronald reagan dealt with. we're back in a moment. sorry. (whispering) hi, uh we need a new family plan. (whispering) how about 10 gigs of data to share and unlimited talk and text. (whispering) oh ten gigs sounds pretty good. (whispering) yeah really good (whispering) yeah and for a family of 4 it's a $160 a month. what! get outta here! (whispering) i'm sorry are we still doing the whisper thing? or? (whispering) o! sorry! yes yes! (whispering) we'll take it.

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♪ as far as the impact on my political future, i think it will have none, because i didn't do anything. so i understand the circus that this becomes. you know, you get 61% of the vote in a blue state in november and then all of a sudden, you know, a couple of staff people do something they shouldn't have done. i fire them. and all of a sudden this becomes the biggest story in the country for a couple of months. >> are you still thinking of running for president and when will you make a decision on that? >> yes and later. >> well, there you go. >> he's running. >> that's pretty definitive. check that off. >> chris christie in. okay. >> hillary is undecided. but semi-in. >> we're not sure about jeb. >> welcome back to "morning joe." john heilemann and mike barnicle still at the table. sam stein joins us and in

chicago political analyst and former chairman of the republican national committee michael steele. and chuck todd will be here in just a few moments. >> john heilemann, obviously the reason why we talk about chris christie, why he's important, the only reason jeb bush is considering running is when christie started to falter a bit. i think christie, boy, he's locked and loaded ready to go. >> he looks like he has wanted to run before and still wants to run. there are obviously a loot of circumstances still playing out in the course of these months that might make it impossible for him to run. >> like what? >> he's under investigation on multiple fronts. we don't actually know the final answers. >> open up the newspaper, you'll see an update on it on "the daily news." >> he's not going to let democratic investigations. >> but the facts could come out. i'm not saying they will, but we don't know the answers. but there's no doubt that if he gets to the place where he is

exonerated from the most serious charges that have been leveled against him, i think there's no question he's going to try to run. but he's going to run from a much weakened position than where he would have been had none of this happened. >> sounds like torpedos full steam ahead. >> i'm impressed john had that analysis after the brooklyn loss last night. i thought he'd be crying on the set today. but it was -- i'm sorry, was that too much? >> hurt too much. >> sorry. it was the 7:00 a.m. hour. i thought the 6:00 a.m. hour was too early. >> i know where you live, sam. you realize that, right? >> i moved. i moved. anyways, i think john hit it on the head. i mean, he clearly seems like he wants to run. but there are so many lingering questions with these investigations. and democrats feel pretty emboldened on a new front too which is that the credit rating of new jersey has been reduced in several occasions the last months. there are some chinks to the armor, let's say.

and there would be a weakened position. but it seems like he's full steam ahead. >> michael, a lot of chris christie's detractors said this is a mortal wound. we still haven't seen that one connection to his office that said shut down the traffic. maybe we will in these new investigation, we don't know yet. if he's cleared in that way, he has a year or two to put it behind him. do you think a voter in iowa if you take a step back or a voter in south carolina or new hampshire is as concerned about this issue with chris christie as the media and national political analysts are? >> no, i don't think they are. i think that's an obsession of the new york media market and the washington market that seems to fixate on chris christie. one is obviously the situation in new jersey with the bridgegate and the federal

investigation into the storm funding. but the other problem is within the party itself, the base. how those iowans and new hampshire identities and others view his candidacy potentially as president of the united states is really the real test for chris christie. always has been. everything else notwithstanding all the glamour and love that comes from around the country is not necessarily the vibe that is felt at the base. >> i agree. mike barnicle at the end of the day he's going to be judged by how he works, works it in new hampshire, works it in iowa, works it in south carolina. and they don't give a damn what "the new york times" editorial page writes about chris christie. the more negative it is, the more he can hold it up in a combative way. actually won over some people that wouldn't have been with him

before. >> john heilemann, handicap this for us. you have marco rubio supposedly, rand paul, couple of others. chris christie skips iowa, goes into new hampshire. what happens? >> well, boy, you need to know what the rest of the field looks like. it's never worked out well for people who have tried to skip the first state. i mean, rudy giuliani tried that strategy back in 2008. the party likes to see compete everywhere. not just iowans but the rest of the party. especially if you're the front runner. this was the challenge that hillary clinton faced in 2008. i'm the front runner but i'm going to skip iowa. that projects all kinds of weakness. i think christie has to go and try to play everywhere. the old chris christie at his highest moment when he was at his strongest, i don't think he was a bad iowa candidate. i mean, he obviously is not an evangelical or cultural conservative the way some are,

but he had a lot of tea party support and a lot of populist appeal. >> look at the iowa governor. the iowa governor's not off the rails -- >> christie on his game can play anywhere. >> all right. senator harry reid is sounding off on everything from campaign finance to presidential politics and of course the koch brothers are among his top targets. in fact, the majority leader tells buzzfeed, quote, if they think romney was watched closely by me, that's nothing compared to what it's going to be like with the koch brothers. the nevada democrat ask now pushing -- he's cited corrupting influence of the citizens united ruling in his words put the political process in the sewer. reid also suggested his recent comments to nbc news about billionaire sheldon adelson have been misinterpreted. here's what he told chuck todd in part last week.

>> the two richest people in the world. and they are in it to make money. that's their whole goal here. is to add zeros to their billions. and i don't think that's the case -- >> you don't think that's the case with adelson? >> i know sheldon adelson. he's not in this for money. he did not do this for money. he's in this because he has certain ideological views. his views are in keeping with the democrats on choice, on all kinds of things. so sheldon adelson, don't pick on him. he's not in it for money. >> reid tells buzzfeed, quote, i can't praise adelson. i just said on social issues, he's good. we can speculate who is my favorite billionaire. but the point is there's too much money in politics. >> let's bring in chuck todd right now. it's fascinating to me that the democrats have harry reid running the united states senate. you go back to the campaign, he

talked about romney. yes, he did discuss romney. last hour when john heilemann brought it up that he told a lie or suggested incorrectly that mitt romney hadn't paid taxes in ten years. it was a lie. he kept repeating it. and now he calls the koch brothers the richest people in the world. biggest polluters. he's back tracking now on sheldon adelson. when we've got the tape. it just seems -- i don't see why the democrats have this guy running the senate. >> in some ways you can see why democrats i think some secretly like harry reid is willing to do those things. look at yesterday's story. there are a lot of democrats who think what karl rove did on hillary was a purposeful decision because look at what's

happened. there's been multiple days of questions about her age and introduced that idea. and harry reid in some ways has gleefully played that role for democrats. you know, i don't know if mitt romney paid any taxes. you just throw it out there enough, you're the senate majority leader so you're going to get quoted. you know, you're not just a crazy blogger that's throwing out these things. >> but you just said senate majority leader next to something that some -- >> i agree. it sounds low rent. >> would george mitchell ever do something like that? would bob dole ever do something like that? name any majority leader before -- tom daschle, trent lott. this is just a new low that a party is excited that a guy is going out telling falsehoods. >> i'm not defending it. don't put me in the position -- >> i'm not. i'm not nicole wallace.

i'm not putting you in a corner here. >> look. i have been lamenting. this is the worst, i would say, collective bipartisan leadership of the united states senate in my lifetime and for anybody older, i would challenge you to find it. it is amazing to me collectively mcconnell how it's a combative senate. it's a leadership-heavy senate. it's a senate that doesn't respect ranking members to let them do things as much as they used to. and it's overally political. not necessarily partisan. overly political. it seemed to be a regular occurrence that the senate majority leader and republican leader used to appear together on "meet the press." used to happen all the time. they don't even think about doing things like that now. >> i was just going to bring up trent lott and tom daschle would tear each other on "meet the press" but be friendly

afterwards. >> but on "meet the press" together. >> that's what i said. one time trent lott and bill clinton tell the story of saying something too tough about bill clinton. picked up the phone and apologized to clinton that morning. clinton said don't worry about it. again, we have to go back to the 1800s to find times when washington actually worked. but this is just a new low. >> sure. mcconnell and reid did one joint interview, i believe, on "60 minutes," and it was so cold you felt chills watching it. they don't like each other. they don't want to be collaborative with one another. i think that's a problem with the senate at large. with respect to what reid said on the koch brothers, there is problems with billionaires in the senate. and he clearly wants that money.

on the bigger point, though, about money in ploiks in this whole idea of a constitutional amendment to ban it, one, that's the only way they're going to do it. and two, it's never going to happen. and that's a bigger problem that harry reid faces more than this quipping back and forth. is there's so much money pocketed, so many billionaires dropping tens of millions of dollars which is a drop in the bucket for them, and you can't get rid of that money. >> you mentioned bill clinton. bill clinton is defending his wife against suggestions namely by karl rove that her health situation may impact her plans for 2016. speaking at a fiscal summit in washington, the former president knocked down suggestions that hillary hadn't leveled with the american people about her concussion back in 2012. according to monday's new york post, he suggested the former secretary of state may have brain damage. i want to let it breathe. >> that never gets easier to

read. >> it doesn't. it really doesn't. while rove refutes the exact wording, president clinton weighed in. >> thank goodness. >> first of all, i've got to give him credit, you know, that embodies that old saying that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. first they said she faked the concussion. now they say she's auditioning for a part on "the walking dead." she works out every week. she is strong. he's doing great. as far as i can tell, she's in better shape than i am. she certainly seems to have more stamina now. and there's nothing to it. >> do you think this is their way of inserting her age or her physical capabilities into the 2016 debate? >> i don't know, but if it is you can't be too upset about it. it's just the beginning. they'll get better and better at it. you know, it's -- i'm still waiting for them to admit there was nothing to white water.

>> there you go, president clinton doing what president clinton does. >> let's bring in presidential historian ray shirley. great to see you. i wanted to talk to you about this latest line of attack. her age will come up if she runs. it has been an issue in the past. why is it different this time if you think it is? >> i'm not sure it is different. first of all, i want to correct what he said. samuel johnson said foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of the little mind. he needs to work on his research. i'm not sure it's different. as a matter of fact, this is pretty much not wanting to defend karl rove. but in 1980, gop operatives were saying ronald reagan was prone to strokes and was palsy.

gerald ford said he had premature orange hair. john connolly was saying reagan better be careful. if he slips on ice in the new hampshire primary, his campaign will be all over. the attacks on reagan and his age were terrible. it gets even worse. it was terrible. and so actually, this stuff -- the problem with this is it's twofold. one is that the clintons overreacted. and that is just catnip to the vile republican consulting classes. because now they're all laying in wait and said, look, if we drew blood on this. we're going to come at them with everything. so they made the mistake. what reagan did, he would handle it with humor. and by the way, let me talk to you why we need to cut taxes for the american people. he didn't get upset, he didn't overreact. he used to joke about like during the campaign in the primaries 1980, he was talking

about why wage and prices didn't work. he made reference to the roman emperor who would enter the death penalty for anybody who violated the wage and price controls. there was no truth to the rumor when he made that ruling. so he handled it with humor. then he would take the issue attacks and pivot it and focus on the issues he wanted to talk about. >> obviously you're bringing this up, another famous moment. the 1984 debate. let's watch. >> you already are the oldest. t in history. some of your staff said you were tired after your recent account with mr. mondale. president kennedy had to go days on end with no sleep during the cuba missile crisis. is there any doubt you would be able to function in such circumstances? >> not at all. and i want you to know that also i will not make age an issue of this campaign. i am not going to exploit for

political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. >> funny part about that clip is you realize how hard mondale laughed at the joke. >> that was it. he hit it out of the park. that was it. the campaign was over. but he did that many, many times during the run-up to the 1980 campaign and during his presidency. >> so can we -- before we wrap it up here, these stories exist because there's a tinge of something to them. isn't that fair enough? ronald reagan certainly suffered from the effects of age in office. and you can hear that from insiders who worked with him. >> no, no, absolutely not. >> excuse me? >> no, he did not suffer from the effects of age. if you're talking about alzheimer's or mental deterioration, no. >> no, i did not say that. i can tell you exactly, but i don't think you want me to. i know people that were in the

room with him, and he definitely had effects of age in office in his second term. >> every staffer will tell you is that when he went back to california in january of '89 that he was tired. but he went to mayo every year and went through rigorous mental and physical testing and passed with flying colors all eight years of his testing. everybody who was up close and personal with him said there was no evidence of any mental deterioration during his presidency. he was as sharp as the day he left as the day he went in office. >> okay. well, we can debate that. my point is both these stories, in my opinion, have a tinge of truth. you go to hillary clinton and she was not present at a time when people had a lot of questions about something that was going on that was important in foreign policy. a huge disastrous event. and her health was a question. >> and chuck todd, let me go to you. there certainly were a lot of

questions about hillary clinton's health. this is not to justify anything that's happened, just following up on what mika said. there was a tinge of truth to this. it is something that was asked before. and it will probably be asked again as we move forward. >> and remember, they were very secretive about everything particularly in the first couple of weeks. it felt like we didn't get the details. it took a long time to get it out which is par for the course when it comes to the clintons on these things. in a weird way, karl rove did the clintons a favor. in this respect. now which i think is a legitimate thing to ask of every single presidential candidate. show us your health records. give the public, show the public your health records. it is, i think it'll be an important question to chris christie. it'll be an important question to jeb bush and hillary clinton, joe biden, whoever. and now the clintons can say you're doing the bidding of karl

rove. you know, that is in an odd way how karl rove may have done a favor for the clintons. >> craig shirley, thank you so much. sam stein, thanks as well. chuck todd, thank you. we'll be watching "the daily rundown" at 9:00 a.m. michael steele, stay with us. coming up a round table, and the story of one man who exposed the most secretive agency. how glenn greenwald and edward snowden broke the surveillance state. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ don't worry! the united states postal service will get it there on time with priority mail flat rate shipping. our priority has always been saving the day. because our priority... amazing! ...is you!

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♪ pulitzer prize winner journalist glenn greenwald author of the book "no place to hide." glenn, good morning. good to see you. >> good morning. great to be here. >> so, glenn, there's so much color in this book. obviously this has been a wild year, 18 months for you. but there's color about how this all came together in your

relationship with edward snowden. i guess he reached out to you and for awhile, you didn't do what he asked you to do. and he was surprised in terms of using this encryption technology that would have allowed the two of you two to communicate. you sat on it for a little while and he was frustrated by that. >> yes. in retrospect it's easy to say glenn greenwald is an idiot. being contacted by one of the most important sources in a long time and sort of blew him off. it sort of underscored this lesson is he knew in retrospect, had good reason it was unsafe for him to communicate with me because of how pervasive this surveillance can be. and for me without him telling me anything about who he was or what he had, i wasn't sufficiently enticed to drop what i was doing and install these sophisticated encryption programs. but it is hard to do journalism in a world in which metadata is collecting the list of everyone

who is talking to everyone else. >> two questions. when did you decide to report on this? and secondly, when did he decide to become a leaker? >> you know, it was over a long process. when i was finally induced to install encryption and we were talking for several weeks online and i was getting a much better sense of who he was and what he thought. and by then he was in hong kong and wanted me to come to hong kong. before i would i asked him to provide me some documents that indicated the seriousness of this disclosures he was willing to make. he sent me two dozen top documents. and they were extraordinary in scope. that made me realize this was a remarkable story. i'd been working on surveillance for many years. he decided to leak -- really it was an evolution where he considered it back in 2008 when he was at the cia. had been deterred from doing it because he thought the election

of president obama would rein in some of these abuses, once he saw that wasn't going to happen, made the decision in 2011 to cross this line and taking preparations to doing it. >> clearly these stories have exposed a an over-zealous situation. but given that, do you think or believe that our government has an obligation, perhaps even a right to maintain some secrets? >> oh, definitely. and not only do i believe that, but edward snowden believes that as well. i think this is one of the cruci critical points i tried to explain. he did not leak or disclose to the public a single document. he could have uploaded all these

documents to the internet. he could have given them to people and say disseminate them far and wide or sold them. he came to journalists working with two of the most regarded news organizations in the world and said i should not be the person making the choices about what should and shouldn't be published. i'm giving this to you. i want you working within these decisions. we have many thousands of documents. only a small percentage have been disclosed that's with his insistence to make sure what should be public is disclosed but what shouldn't be public isn't. >> hey, it's john heilemann here. first of all, congratulations on the book, on the pulitzer, and on your new venture. one of the things that's been most admirable in the way you practiced your craft over the course of the last couple years is your insistence on adversarial people in power. you are now more or less in a

kind of partnership with this source with edward snoiden. how do you think about the balance you have to draw -- how do you go about being a partnership with a source and how do you bring some measure of skepticism and that same adversarial attitude as dwrou do towards the government. >> that's an interesting and fair question. i don't know i would accept partnership, but i understand what you mean. i acknowledge that edward snowden and i and other journalists i've worked share a common belief. that we work toward a common goal which is making people around the world see this. we got to work together very closely. one of the things tough keep in mind is that ultimately the only

thing that determines whether or not you'll make an impact is whether it's accurate or not. if you start doing things to sandpaper some of the facts or cover over the facts or distort them for some kind of an agenda, instantaneously the biggest challenge will be done to your own credibility and efficacy. the first goal even with an adversarial journalist is to make sure that what you're reporting is true and accurate. no matter who that impacts. and i feel like we've done a good job of that. that's certainly been at the top of my agenda. >> quickly before we let you go, do you think edward snowden will ever be able to come back to the united states? >> it's really hard to see how that could happen. i think it's important to the united states to punish people who did what he did to deter future whistle blowers. i think russia will likely extend his asylum. other countries are debating whether he should get it. but i don't see him coming back without being put in prison for 30 or 40 years. >> the book is "no place to hide" by glenn greenwald.

thanks for coming on. . up next, the 9/11 museum will be officially dedicated today. we'll speak to george pataki about the tribute next on "morning joe." ♪ i make a lot of purchases for my business. and i get a lot in return with ink plus from chase like 60,000 bonus points when i spent $5,000 in the first 3 months after i opened my account. and i earn 5 times the rewards on internet, phone services and at office supply stores. with ink plus i can choose how to redeem my points. travel, gift cards even cash back. and my rewards points won't expire. so you can make owning business even more rewarding. ink from chase. so you can.

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all right. today president obama and first lady michelle obama are scheduled to attend the dedication ceremony for the september 11th memorial museum. the museum officially opens up to the public on wednesday. here with us now former republican governor of new york george pataki. good to have you on the show this morning. >> so far some great reviews. >> been down there? >> i have been down there many times. >> it's got to be moving for you. tell us about it. >> it's incredibly moving. first of all, you're in memorial plaza. you see the voids and the names around where the towers stood. then you slowly descend all the way do bedrock at ground zero. and you're seeing different relics. and there are just two things that struck me, although so much does, is one you see a crushed fire engine. i think it's ladder 3, where i believe 11 of that ladder company died. when you see that, you just get a sense of the magnitude of the loss of that day and the courage

of how people responded. and then you go around another corner and there's the memorial hall. and that is three stories high. and it has the picture and story of every single person who died. and what we wanted to do was let people who not only were not there on september 11th but who weren't even born on september 11th understand the magnitude of the loss and then tell the individuals' stories. because we don't want those who died to be a number. we want them to be humanized and the memorial does that. >> speaking of humanizing this, i want to ask you this and then the governor. you were down there. you were at ground zero. before the buildings fell, after they fell, and you were down there for a couple weeks afterwards. talk about all these years later looking at this as a museum. what are you feelings when you see that? >> well, i'm going to have to take a day to go down there. because i don't think it's something you do in passing. especially having been there. the two things that come to mind

is when we were hiding in that school and you came out and it looked like the movie "the day after," it was such an unbelievably out of body experience that you couldn't really understand the magnitude of it. and the two images that come to mind are when you went to the area of the city where everybody was looking for someone and you saw all the faces. and that was the first moment a few days after the event that really hit me of the loss, of the parents that would never come home, of the sisters and brothers that would never be found, and of the hope that these people still held. and those little trinkets and jackets and voice mails and all the things that they've so carefully preserved really bring you back to a moment that is still hard to put into perspective. >> mike, the voice mails, we hear they have voice mails, the last minutes of so many of these peoples' lives. >> the museum is a critical component of american life, not new york life. it's important that we not

forget. and this museum, every element of it, the governor's mentioned a few. every step of it within the museum brings you back to that moment in time. a moment in time -- we have a tendency to have instant amnesia. to move on from things. we should not move on from this. we should remember. mika, i can vividly recall a few days after september 11th, 9:30, 10:30 at night on 9th or 10th avenue, people standing there with pictures of loved ones holding them up as people would walk by. governor, other aspects of the museum, you mentioned a few. talk about other aspects of the museum that will have an imprint on anyone who goes to visit. >> well, i think there's the personal side of the individual stories. but there are also incredibly dramatic and i hate to use that word because it's tragic, but relics of like the impact site. where you'll see the twisted steel. you'll see the tridents that

stood at the base of the tower. there are so many things that tell that story in a way that has to be told. >> all right. governor pataki, thank you so much for coming in and helping us tell this story. come back soon. i know you have lots of things to talk about. we'll talk politics next time. up next, why exactly was jill abramson fired from "the new york times"? >> because she's a woman. and governor pataki and i are insulted about what happened at "the times." we want a long-term investigation. don't we? >> it appears the issue of equal pay may have reared its ugly head again. we'll discuss that with a powerhouse round table. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪

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here with us now ceo and founder of carly fiorina who was recently oi pointed at chairman of board of directors. we also have the ceo of operation international. and former ceo of merrill lynch. and managing director of marketing at senture. i'm a tad bit intimidated. perfect timing. power group. we've been talking this morning about the firing of jill abramson. you all know jill? >> yes. >> what do you make -- it's an equal pay issue. at some point we'll hear more abt it. ken auletta has a piece out saying she complained recently about equal pay. whether or not that had anything to do with her firing, we won't

debate here. having said that, have any of you been in a situation where you felt like you were approaching a subject that could perhaps get you in trouble like equal pay? sally just started laughing. when have you not? >> i guess exactly right. all of us have. absolutely. it's an issue that's been an issue. we can debate whether it's 77 cents on a man's dollar or 82 cents or 90 cents. but we all know and recognize this gap continues to exist. as do gender bias. not necessarily overt gender biases. but we all have men and women. >> carly, you're tough. right? >> you have to be. i hope i'm also compassionate. sometimes to get the job done, you need to be tough. >> i think i would go to your company and use your company's resources. because you're tough. that's the kind of double edged sword here. >> there's no question that

women are treated differently, caricatured differently, scrutinized difficultly. if you are in a position of leadership and responsibility, there are times when you must be tough to execute responsibly your position. and when women do it, it's just viewed differently. men are called assertive and leaders. women are called pushy or something with a "b." >> like that was something wrong. i'm trying to think when everyone talked about steve jobs's leadership. he was a little strange, wasn't he? >> he was a genius. >> he was a little mean, wasn't he? oh, wait. but he was a genius. i'm sorry. i'm confused. >> the thing i found really sad, honestly, about the announcement yesterday with jill is that "the new york times" and arthur salzburger said nothing about her. nothing about her contribution. nothing about her three years as

managing editor. nothing. that's pretty cold. and i don't think that others would necessarily have been treated that way. >> i think you might be right. we look at where we all stand right now, because the more of us there are, the less this becomes a problem. >> that's right. >> companies need to actually -- i think the bigger problem if she was fired because of raising the issue about equal pay or that was one of the issues, it's still their fault because the issue shouldn't be there. companies need to do things proactively to prevent this problem, no? >> i think you're raising a great issue. underlying all this, knowing your value, is building career capital. no one would argue having those skills as a woman is tantamount to taking the next step. we just spent international women's day celebrating this topic, doing research in 30 countries. the number one finding that came

back, 90% said career capital is what i need to succeed. our clients came. we can't get enough of this topic. really stepping back as women saying i need to focus on this. i manage my money, i manage my investments. i need to own this. >> and vicki, perfect segue. >> yes. it is tough in this country, but when you look at the rest of the world where poverty around really unmistakably focuses on 70% of the population are women. so finding a way to take our power and really help those women. but i want to go back and make a comment about the situation that occurred at "the new york times." any of these jobs are really lonely jobs. i mean, they're tough, but it's lonely when you're in a leadership position. and so surrounding yourselves with a good network of people both men and women and clearly

stating what your objectives are as you go through your career is a really important thing to do as a leader. >> so i would -- i would say that some of the things that describe the way i work is very tough, very demanding. i guess some people use the word bitchy, fierce, fiercely defending of those who are around me. carly, sallie, is this going to be my downfall? >> i'd say you're doing pretty well, but i do want to go back to something vicki just said because i think we are appropriately focused on the fact that women still are the most underutilized resource in this country and in the world. >> right. in the world. >> and if people want to be successful, solve problems, women need to be more engaged. the data is completely clear.

>> you say it'll pay you back. >> it's not just women engaging but the men at the company engaging. >> go ahead quick. >> investing in women is just smart to do. women are a larger emerging market than china. they can grow the economy by 9% by being fully engaged. this is just good business. >> it is the bottom line. and this will conversation will continue. wow. thanks for coming in. and i mentioned tomorrow my know your value women's conference in hartford, connecticut. for tickets and more information, visit know your value ct.com. you won't want to miss my show your value bonus competition where women will can compete for a bonus. they'll put it on the table and show what their value is. we're going to teach women to do this. all women. joe and donny will be celebrity judges and eye candy as well. why not, right? >> love it.

still ahead, he's got a knack for getting under people's skin. but that's never stopped him from speaking his mind. the always opinionated rick reilly joins us next. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ opinionated rick reilly joins us next. you're watching "morning joe." y he was a matted mess in a small cage. so that was our first task, was getting him to wellness. without angie's list, i don't know if we could have found all the services we needed for our riley. from contractors and doctors to dog sitters and landscapers, you can find it all on angie's list. we found riley at the shelter, and found everything he needed at angie's list. join today at angieslist.com

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entitled "tiger, meet my sister" and will be inducted into the sportswriter hall of fame. >> did you even know there was a sportswriter hall of fame? >> i did. everybody's talking about it. i love the first part of your book, flaws, big people acting small. one part that caught my attention of be like mike. no thanks. michael jordan. >> this is a collection of my favorite columns since i've been at espn six years. i remember michael jordan's retirement speech. instead of being joyous, he just started killing people. he picked out people in high school and said you started ahead of me and then he started on dean smith, you wouldn't let me be on the cover of "sports illustrated." i was thinking, michael, you won. you won everything.

why are you so mad? >> everything. >> one of the reasons the columns that were originally published and in the book, you have a tendency to go to the edge of the story, not the center part of the story, the edge. story. talk about how finding the edge of the story is really the most important part. >> especially as everybody became a sportswriter, if you got a wifi and a laptop, you're a sportswriter now. so everybody is writing. to find something new is really hard. i remember when sammy sosa was talking about, hey, my numbers are real. i can't wait for drug testing. so i went to him and i said there's a lab ten minutes from here and he grabbed the bat, he started screaming about me and if you've seen him lately, you see what he's so upset about.

he sh rrunshrunk. his head alone went down two sizes. >> i want to one through some people, nicest professional athlete. it says you have steph curry. >> yeah, he just came to africa with us and hung nets over kids. we have this foundation called nothing but nets and we cut malaria deaths to 2,000 there. here's a superstar athlete, came with us, risked disease to do that, didn't have to. just couldn't be nicer. >> biggest jerk and not controversial, you picked barry bonds. >> his head still hasn't shrunk. >> barry bonds would be three of my top-five jerks. >> most fun, charles barclay. >> oh, yeah. >> wouldn't you also say maybe

smartest? >> one time i was with him and a teenage girl comes up and she goes you're not going to remember me. and he goes, yes, i do. you were with your cousin, her name is lindsay, salt lake city and i signed her advivisor. >> and biggest idiot. lance armstrong. >> i said why did you lie to me and make me look for an idiot. >> he said i'm sorry, if i told the truth everything would have unravelled. >> are you going to be like mike on your induction speech? >> yeah, i'm going to rip everybody. >> the cover. buy it for the cover. >> he's sick of the sewer.

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♪ ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." john heilemann and michael steele are with us and editor in chief of buzz feed, ben smith. >> how you doing, ben? >> i'm just curious.

at your place do women get paid more -- >> oh, stop. >> -- than those employees that they supervise or do you have the "new york times" model where actually the supervisor gets paid less than the person that works for the supervisor? >> this feels like a trick question. >> no, it's pretty straight forward. because at the "new york times" jill abramson got paid less than the person who worked under her. >> i wouldn't want to compare that guy to a janitor but -- >> and they gave some pretty -- >> they gave a very sort of miele mouthed response. >> if any kind of politician gave the sort of response that the "new york times" gave, what would have happened to that

politician? >> i suspect the times would have asked for a little more detail. >> it depends on what you think is comparable. >> they are not comparable. >> would you like to give details? >> we are not going to give details but they are not close to being comparable, especially if you look at the pay scale at the "new york times." >> all right. >> let's go through this story, guy, from the top, and let's talk about -- actually, a "new york times" reporter, i have tons of different contacts there did send me something for balance he wanted me to point out. major shake-up at the "new york times." executive editor jill abramson has been dismissed from her responsibilities at the paper. at least that's the way the "new york times" puts it on today's front page. it's interesting, it's in the "washington post" style section by the way. the publisher told the shocked staffers the decision was made because there was, quote, an issue with management in the

newsroom. however, there appears to another issue at pay. he breaks down a different side of the story writing several weeks ago abramson discovered her pay and pension benefits at executive and before that as managing editor were significantly lower than bill keller, who she replaced in both jobs. this may have led to the character that she was pushy. a spokesperson for the times refutes those parts saying jill's total compensation was directly comparable to bill keller's during her dime as executive editor. the pension benefit was frozen in 2009. so, yes, there would be a difference in pension benefit.

bill is a 30-year employee, most of that time spent prior to twooint. he notes the pay gap was closed only after abramson raised concerns about it. he also reports jill abramson clashed with the company's ceo's intrusion of the business side into the newsroom, as well as the hiring of a new managing editor for the paper's web site. abramson was the times first female executive editor, having assumed that role in september of 2011. she will be replaced by dean baquet, the first fm african-american editor of the newspaper. >> and at a previous job she had, her assistant got paid more than she did. same thing happened at "time" magazine, until they got a

female editor to open up the books. >> candaletta's reporting is not going to satisfy a lot of people and i think its own newspaper will be digging and probably is digging at this moment. we talked about the tone and the tenor of jill abramson being abrasive and pushy and aggressive and a lot of things you see in male bosses and you see in newsrooms and in our newsrooms -- >> i don't want to talk about my behavior at this table. >> not your behavior. >> well, actually -- >> those are usually positive descriptions when you talk about a man, someone who is not afraid to ruffle feathers and get in and get their hands dirty. there's a larger picture here. the "new york times" had some reason that they'll have to explain. but you look at these things individually and they just don't look good for the "new york

times." >> it's hard to get inside an organization and understand what's going on and it's easy to jump to conclusions. but it's been a good paper for the last few years. people can't say she didn't have good news business. they cemented their position as the number one news organization as others are running away. that's kind of hard to argue with. >> jill abramson is an awesome journalist and has a history of being a great journalist, was a great reporter. when she was at the wall street journal. there's much to be said for her. it's also the case that simultaneously, which is what you said, the paper has had a good run journalistically. but there's also been a fair amount of internal turmoil. >> but there's been turmoil at

the "times" for the past number of years. >> no one expected this to happen yet. if you look at the cumulative culture over the last few years, it hasn't been -- >> just for balance, i'd like to just point out the "new york times" also said in a message that went out to the staff "we owe jill an enormous debt of gratitude for positioning jill for preserving and embasxtendin journalistic legacy on which to build. >> in two hours v.a. secretary eric shinseki will testify on capitol hill over allegations that veterans were delayed

treatment at veterans hospital. up to 40 veterans may have died while waiting for treatment. the doctor claims they ordered the doctors to keep a list of secret patients to hide delay in care. at least one leading vets group is calling for shinseki's resignation. the president and defense secretary say the retired four-star general has their support. now president obama is assigning one of his top advisers, white house deputy chief of staff john nabors to investigate. >> there's a lot to talk about from a remarkable stand point. the injuries the vets are coming back with are pretty intense, especially the ones we can't

see. is it perfect? absolutely not. does it mean improved? absolutely. we need to work on it, especially when it comes to mental health issues. >> the veterans affairs would agree. the va department is still facing a massive back log of service members waiting for benefits. as pbs reported last year, files were stacked so high at one office in north carolina, they actually posed a safety risk to staff. joining us now from the pentagon, nbc news chief pentagon correspondent jim miklaszews miklaszewski. and yesterday we had john tessler here, who seemed to be

saying nothing, move along, move along. and as he was saying that, the mouths of us here who like senator tester very much were just wide open. we didn't quite get that. what's your reporting show? >> one of the anomalies is once veterans get into the system, it's one of the best medical systems in the united states. the problem, as we see here, is actually getting into the system. and what we're not likely to hear today in the testimony from secretary shinseki is any new details about this latest scandal that 40 may have died while waiting for care. and you can understand that. he'll hide behind the fact that an i.g.'s investigation is still under way. let me give you one quote from shinseki's opening statement that i think is very telling. "i am angered and deeply saddened by any adverse consequences that a veteran might experience while in or as a result of our care."

not consequences a veteran has experienced or even might have experienced. this could be the lawyers at work here to make sure he doesn't overstep any bounds, but you almost get the sense that shinseki believes that maybe there isn't that kind of suffering out there. and in the interview that i did with him, i asked him specifically, do you understand the level of outrage out there? and his answer was, "i think i do." >> mik, you've covered this general, you have great respect for this general. but what a lot of other people on capitol hill are saying is he just doesn't seem to get it on an emotional, gut level. >> you have to wonder if his experiences in vietnam, and i'm not going to try to psycho analyze him, but throughout his career he's been very stoic, by the book, show no, sir emotion. some of these battle hardened generals do sort of take the attitude that you have to put the individual sort of behind you at some point and

concentrate on the larger mission. now, i will say, however, that this problem does appear to be intractable. it is one of the most deeply rooted bureaucracy -- even secretary of defense bob gates says the v.a. is more bureaucratic than the pentagon. now that's saying something. >> wow. >> and let's be clear here because there were a lot of e-mails yesterday and a lot responses that i got from people thinking that i was making this about barack obama, which of course is assanine. i said if the consistent had a problem with the i.r.s. or v.a. and you could call somebody at the i.r.s. and talk to somebody. the v.a. just didn't give a damn. it was the only agency i ever saw, and i had more veterans in

my district than any other district that just didn't give a damn about the people that they serve. and this is going back 20, 25 years. vets in my district always talked about the slow roll. they would just push you off and push you off and push you off. it was the worst bureaucracy then, it is the worst bureaucracy now. there's not a close second. >> let me give you a very quick anecdote. this happened several years ago before general shinseki took over the v.a. i called the press secretary for some reason, it was about 3:00 in the afternoon and i got a receptionist. i said i wanted to talk to the press secretary, i'm with -- not that i'm a big deal but i'm with nbc news, i want to talk to the press secretary. she said, well, there's nobody else here, i'm sorry, you can't. i said excuse me? she said you'd have to talk to so and so first and i said excuse me? and finally the woman defeatedly

said, "we have ladders. we've always this ladders." that is bureaucracy at its worst. >> i want to put that picture back up of north carolina. that is not the picture of a 21st century operation. >> no. >> the v.a. only went to computers in 2013. the i.r.s. did it in 1990. how difficult will it be, no matter who's in charge of the v.a. to unwind this and get it processed in a quicker way. >> it's going to be a process. why are we're still talking about that this is the next step we have to do? we been talking about the lack of care and progress there for a very long time. every time we talk about this issue, it's, well, we need to have a study or do the next

thing. it's high time the v.a. take this seriously. if we're going to ask people to give their lives for this country, we have to be willing to take care of them in the part of life where they need it the most. this essential. i was shocked by senator tester's comments to be honest with you. there's nothing to excuse here. there's no reason to defend the v.a. except to say they have to get their stuff in gear and get it in gear now. >> couldn't agree more. what do you propose? what can we do today to make the system more efficient? >> i think the first thing is let's cut through the excuses and bureaucracy and say we have a one-year back log, how are we going to fix that? if it's somebody that's waiting for treatment that doesn't necessarily be the v.a. how about we give them a voucher to go to their local clinic to take care of them while they're waiting. you have a lot of folks with mental health systems. i've introduced a bill to make that vouchering system a little

easier. something like that to get people taken care of in the immediate term. in the long term, we have to look at this giant bureaucracy we have and why is it so inefficient? it's like the dmv. >> i was talking about the problem of the 1990s. we've been fighting wars over the past decade. americans are still dying and suffering in afghanistan this morning as we're on this show. that makes a bad situation and makes it so much worse. i'm a republican, you're a republican, small government republican here. you look at paul ryan's budget, though, i mean, the way he was narrowing the deficit was actually going after military health care benefits. if we want to fix this, it's going to take a big investment, especially after a decade of war. >> joe, you're so right about that. and it really hits the nail on the head with respect to

priorities. what are the priorities of not just this administration but any administration when it comes to our vets. and you look at a $67 billion budget, which is the budget for the v.a., this is not about money. this is about a process, this is about priorities, this is about focusing on, as willie said and the congressman said, are veterans are served. and given that due to technology more and more vets survive wounds and they're coming back home. you're saying we don't have a system at home to deal with what's happening on the battlefield. that is not acceptable. i think this is about priorities. our budget should reflect that priority. you can have your cake and eat it, too, on other things. but this should be a national priority. you're looking at stacks of files that can't get computerized in 2014. it's crazy. so i really think that, you know, shinseki and others really

have to begin to drill down and be less emotional about this and focus on the process and fixing it for the vets. >> jim miklaszewski, it's john heilemann here. how much jeopardy is shinseki's job actually in right now? >> it depends on who you talk to. i can tell you sort of the underground buzz of those who work with the v.a., around the v.a. is that the president doesn't want shinseki to leave. shinseki with his military record and the like is sort of at this point taking the heat off the administration. and the last thing they want him to do is leave at this point in his administration when the v.a. is under such heavy fire. >> congressman, really quickly, do most of the members that you work with want shinseki gone? >> i think we're at that point. i'm not one of these members

that calls for resignations at knee-jerk level, but i say he has a very, very, very limited window now. i don't think he survives this to be honest with you. i think at the end of the day he resigns. somebody else has to come in. at the end of the day the buck stops with him and the president and the president has to have a man there -- a man or woman there that he can trust to solve this problem. >> congressman adam kinslinger, thank you so much. >> still ahead, wall street is disappointed with walmart's latest earning reports. we'll tell you what the company is blaming its lack luster quarter on. up next, a look at the game changing moment that opened the door to diplomacy with iran. ann curry joins us next. ♪ ♪

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his campaign promise to sto start internet censorship. you may remember the obama music video "question, we can." ♪ it was a creed written into the founding documents that declared the destiny ♪ of a nation, yes, we can. >> it used the words of a

campaign speech. and his youtube videos mirrored obama's, even a bit more highly produced. ♪ ♪ >> that was a clip from nbcnews.com's new digital documentary twitter diplomacy, the making of a nuclear deal. here with us now national and international correspondent ann curry, along with iranian-american journalist iman -- >> there are more -- >> at this moment as they try to create a deal was educated at san francisco state and the

university of denver. he has spent so much time in the united states that wendy sherman, the principal negotiator, says sometimes she forgets he's an iranian because he so connected and understands the american culture. >> so talk about how social media helped bring us closer to this deal. >> what happened is right off the bat, and you really brought this to our attention, the foreign minister tweeted "happy rosh hashana to the jewish people." the former president, ahmadinejad, had caused a great deal of concern about his issues of the holocaust, whether it was really, the state israel. you have the irani foreign minister tweeting "happy rosh hashana." and that set a new stage. >> and when -- it was effective,

but not very effective in terms of people coming out to vote ing. as soon as he took office, he and his foreign minister started tweeting like crazy and started this trend of speaking to the world. so it was a signal that iran is a changed -- or if not changed, it's a different place. >> how much of this is style, how much of this is substance? it seems sense the takeover in 1979, especially go back to 1986, we have been looking for those iranian moderates taking over bibles and birthday cakes shaped as keys and embarrassing ourselves time and time -- >> moderates have always existed. >> who's in control right now? that's a question we asked dr. brzezinski.

>> people can argue about the dysfunction in the u.s. system of government but the system of government in iran is such that you have the supreme leader, who is really in charge of the nuclear program and then the president and then you have -- >> parliament. >> parliament. but you have the very, very powerful and sometimes scary revolutionary guard. as a result of this, there is such a dysfunction. i would call it a straight out dysfunction in the government. who's in charge? it's actually a hydra, which makes it difficult to understand and covering this. >> it's hard to get good reporting on anything that goes on in iran and secondly, diplomacy in deals like this are hard to penetrate. up guys got a lot of cooperation. how did you get so much inside material in this documentary? >> iman has been covering this story for many, many years.

he has terrific contacts inside. but first the rouhani government granted us this interview with him way back in september and he said he was not opposed to sitting down with president obama, for the first time in 30 years after the seizing of the embassy. >> you wrote a book saying the ministry invited you not to stay. but now they're pulling you back in, they keep pulling you back in. >> every time you think you're out, right? >> exactly. >> i think it really was -- i'm not going to take too much credit for this because i think it really was this new administration after eight years of ahmadinejad saying you guys got the wrong impression about iran. yes, we have hardliners and extremists and we have people opposed to this, that and the other. if you look at the clip up just ran of all those young people singing the words to the campaign, let's remember in the

isl islamic republic, women are not supposed to be singing. so there's a lot of signals they wanted to send. >> a lot has changed and a lot has not changed. >> talk about how it's a country divided. we saw in 2009 when you saw the protests, it's red state iran, blue stay iran. mika and i sat through several -- i think you were at a couple of them through the years, sat through several off-the-record q & as and we actually had a wonderful time and met so many wonderful people in the iranian government. and then -- they would say we want to do this and we want to do that and obviously one of the greatest civilizations on earth and then mika and i would walk away and saying, well, who knows, maybe. i say this as a pro-israel guy, maybe there will be some sanity

and then the next day ahmadinejad would say something and you'd be like, seriously, i'm not going to waste my time next year. it's a schizophrenic country. >> you're absolutely right and many inside the government were really embarrassed by what ahmadinejad said. >> has he ever answered a question? >> i think when i asked him about nada and how he felt as a father to have watched that videotape that much young woman being killed. and right on videotape out of one of though protests and there was a moment of honesty there. but it was very difficult for him to answer a direct question. and what's different is rouhani speaks english very well. >> i think that's a very important point. it not just that they speak english but it's also they understand the culture. they do understand american

concerns i think better than someone like ahmadinejad or his administration. >> who was actually a lot of people believe there in 1979 during the student takeover. so i have to ask if you have the supreme ruler, supreme leader. you have rouhani, you have the revolutionary guard, where do they all meet? where do they come together? you say the supreme leader has control of nuclear weapons. how do we know that? well, not control weapons, nuclear programs. and does the revolutionary guard -- >> have a say in it? they absolutely have a say in it. it's equivalent to our national security council. so, yeah, they all talk and there's a little bit of give and

take. when there's a more reform-minded president, they give a little leeway to test the waters but the leader is still very suspicious of america. right now rouhani is in his honeymoon period so he has the ability to make the deal. but right now they're focusing on the nuclear issue, they're talking in vienna and i think there's a real deal. >> if they don't get it done, there's a real sense it won't get done. >> and this looks amazing. >> it really does.

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♪ ♪ okay. ben, tell us about the exclusive interview that buzz feed had with senator harry reid. >> i think to me the most interesting this evening harry reid said is that he's open to revisiting the authorization for the use of military force in

afghanistan. >> what's that mean? >> it's 60 word written into law, drafted after 9/11 that has been stretched and stretched since then. it's the law although it doesn't mention libya and somalia, it the law in which navy seals turn up in one country or another. >> is he suggesting he wants to stay in afghanistan longer? >> this is about potentially limiting the president's authorization to send navy seals wherever in the world he feels like, which is what the authorization of military force, drone strikes in yemen. >> any reason he revealed this to buzz feed? >> this is been bubbling up, people saying we didn't authorize drone strikes in yemen. the white house lawyers have over the years interpreted these 60 words to say they can strike any one anywherer sen essential. there's a secret list of groups

they have interpreted. congress is considering taking quite a bit of power away from the white house. >> and you also broke that he's looking at a possible constitution amendment. >> you'll be shocked to know harry reid, not a fan of the koch brothers, is pushing a constitutional amendment to limit that they and the people on the left as well, the sort of unregulated, unlimited outside spending they do. a constitutional amendment is as much an excuse to yell about people as it is to get anything done. >> we want to turn to "business before the bell" now. sarah eisen, how do the numbers look? >> they look pretty solid. the fewest amount of americans filed unemployment claims last week all the way back to 2007, the number dropping below 300,000. that is certainly progress, i would say, on the job front. it follows a trend of fewer

firings and fewer americans having to file for benefits and consumer inflation rising and it's a positive sign because as the economy heals and it improves, you do want to see these prices move up a little. it is a sign -- >> of confidence. >> yeah, that we're getting past the frigid weather slump. and speaking of the cold weather, that's hit walmart. that's the big earnings mover of the day today, fifth consecutive quarter of decline for u.s. sales. they did blame it a lot on the harsh winter weather but their forecast for the current quarter was also pretty disappointing. traffic is down at these major retailers so walmart is trying to beef up its e-commerce business. >> sara eisen, thank you so

much. that's some good news, some confidence there. >> yeah. >> coming up, anyone who has a kid in college won't want to miss this new cover story. is it bad? >> it's bad. keep right here on "morning joe." ♪ ♪fame, makes a man take things over♪ ♪fame, lets him loose, hard to swallow♪ ♪fame, puts you there where things are hollow♪

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>> the new issue of "time" magazine. >> it is ringing the bell of the issue of rape on campus. just reading it right now, you really get a sense of how, first of all, how big this issue is. >> it's a big issue. and it's one where i think we're at an inflexion point. washington is basically saying to american universities either you take this more seriously and you quit treating this as an internal matter or you're not only putting your students at risk, you're putting your

institutions at risk. until now the trend has been to treat this as an internal matter. washington is trying to reverse the incentives, saying if you don't take real steps to address this on your campus, you're going to risk losiing funding under title ix. >> we were on the look for girls and they were easy prey. they wouldn't know anything about our techniques. the man goes on to explain those techniques. we'd invite them to the party, get them drinking right away. we'd have kegs of beer but we also had some kind of punch, our own home brew. we'd make it with a real sweet juice and just pour in all kinds of alcohol. the man goes on to describe

removing the woman's clothing. she tries pushing him off and he pushes her back and down and pushes her arms across her chest child having intercourse. >> even though we heard the statistics of one in five college girls being the victim of some sort of sexual assault, of that found is a small group of men committing serial rapes. they are repeat offenders who are in some cases guilty of raping four, five, six girls. so, again, we know what works, that much more transparent reporting, much more bystander intervention of teaching all kid, men and women, that when you see something that could turn into a dangerous situation, you intervene in teaching kids from the first week of freshman

year about how to not be passive witnesses to what one college describes as the rape culture on campus. that's how serious it is. >> and there's a legitimate question raised in the controversy is the universities in how they deal with this are not particularly well equipped to deal with it. there's the prevention thing and then there's what you do when these occur. you're essentially having a trial and yet not in the court of law. so you have a rather difficult issues around justice. >> and what should the standard of evidence be. it should be exactly the same as it would be to put someone in jim or should the standard for throwing someone off campus be a different one? if i were the father or mother of a boy in college, i would be worried about their rights. and obviously as a mother of a girl in college, i'm worried about her safety. but it's a conversation that has to be entered into way more

transpare transpare transparently. >> but it also has to do around binge drinking. you can get a girl completely drunk and bring her into a room and -- >> and the phrase was changed to include the phrase "without the consent of the victim." if a woman is incapacitated, that also counts as rape. >> i'm not even in college yet with my kids, in my town it's out of control. i can't even imagine on a college campus. >> on a vast majority of places, alcohol -- >> you have to go to bigger institutions. you talk about the serial offenders, you also can have fraternities where the serial

offenders pour the alcohol into the punch and, you know, administrations need to come in and shut fraternities down, kick them off campuses, shut sororities down, kick them off campus and have a zero tolerance policy. >> in one survey 77% of u.s. colleges and universities reported no rapes that year on their campuses. >> that's ridiculous. >> one way they were able to say that is if it didn't occur on campus, then it didn't count. if it occurred off campus, it didn't count in the statistics. >> one of the things that's been noticeable in my adult lifetime as many campuses have gotten much stricter on the question of drinking and drug use and almost as the policy has gotten stricter, the problem has gotten more severe in an inverse relationship than what you would have thought. >> i think that's right.

>> the new issue of "time" is out now. nancy gibbs, it's an important one. thank you so much. ♪ [ male announcer ] momentum has a way of quietly exploding onto the scene. ♪ the new ram 1500 ecodiesel. with 28 highway miles per gallon, 420 pound-feet of torque. ♪ guts. glory. ram.

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the colonel is so cute. that thing looks like a fox. it's long and stringy. has big eyes. >> i like the way he smokes the menthols. >> loves menthols. his cat is a riot. >> this cat's awesome.

>> this 4-year-old child in california was playing in his driveway when the neighbor's dog attacks viciously. he appears to get a good grip on the boy and he's really hurting him and the family cat comes to the rescue. seriously. not only does the cat chase the dog off, it actually chases it down the street. the mom says the dog bit her, too. the son needed stitches but is reportedly okay. this is why cats are so awesome. >> look at that, chased it down the street. that's amazing. >> you know, cats don't usually have that instinct usually to protect as much as dogs. >> my cat goes after dogs all the time. >> i'm saying to protect someone in the family. >> that's amazing. apparently the cat had been in the family long before the boy was gone. so it took care. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? ♪ ♪

we asked people a question, how much money do you think you'll need when you retire? then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more. so maybe we need to approach things differently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪ it's about getting to the finish line.

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i think the numbers speak for themselves. i'm sold! a "selling machine!" ready for you alert, only at lq.com. welcome back to "morning joe." you're looking at the 9/11

memorial and museum. of course, 10:00 dedication. it's been a long, long wait. but it looks like they've done a remarkable job. >> take a day and go down there. it does help you to remember and put it into perspective, if that's possible. >> john, what did you learn today? >> i learned the new york city story with jill abramson is fascinating and it has a lot more to get unravelled before we know actually what is has happened. >> and the "new york times," it's going to present interesting challenges to the "new york times" as a news organization. this is one of the top stories in america. they're going to have to cover it and figure out what the salaries were. >> absolutely. hard to do but the times has the resources if they're honest and candid. >> i suspect there are a lot of women who work at the "new york times" who are going to want to get to the bottom of this. >> we're going to talk about this and other issues at the

forum tomorrow in downtown hartford. >> lovely downtown hartford. >> chuck todd is straight ahead with "the daily rundown." as always, we'd like to thank you for your patience. >> ah, the washington hot seat. just an hour from now, secretary eric shinseki sits down for tough senate questions as the veterans affairs scandal grows and the white house gets hands on. and also the official dedication of the september 11th memorial in museum in lower manhattan. we'll have full coverage of the president's arrival there and the full program throughout the morning. >> plus, has the presidential primary debate process