we are volvo of sweden. next on "meet the press," republican attempts to take down hillary clinton are in full swing. after a headline-grabbing attack by karl rove. will republicans stop at nothing to keep her from running in 2016? i'll be joined by reince priebus, the chair of the republican national committee, and claire mccaskill, democratic senator from missouri who has already endorsed clinton for president. plus, the high profile firing that has rekindled a national conversation about women, power, and leadership. as the debate rages over the dismissal of "new york times" editor jill abramson we'll ask are women in power positions held to a different standard than men. nbc's maria shriver, car a lyn

ryan, and carly fiorina, former ceo of hewlett-packard are here to share their views. and the growing scandal of the va. is the government failing to give american veterans the care they were promised? va secretary eric shinseki says he's mad as hell about what's been uncovered, but that isn't stopping calls for him to resign. what reforms are needed to ensure this never happens again? from nbc news in washington, the world's longest running television program, this is "meet the press" with david gregory. >> and good sunday morning. we'll begin with the story that's been dominating much of the political conversation all week long and that's karl rove's attack on hillary clinton. is this just the start of a republican strategy to persuade her not to run? our own andrea mitchell is here with more on this. good morning. >> good morning to you, david. this week there is no longer any doubt that some powerful republicans are playing hardball against hillary clinton raising questions about her age and her health, even before she decides whether she's a candidate. >> reporter: it all started when karl rove once called bush's

brain, said hillary clinton suffered traumatic brain injury after a 2012 fall and concussion. in baseball terms, it looked like a brush back pitch, perhaps to scare clinton from even running. >> we don't know what the doctor said about, you know, what does she have to be concerned about, we don't know about -- she's hidden a lot. >> reporter: team clinton took it seriously enough to bring out their heavy hitter. >> first they said she faked her concussion, and now they say she's auditioning for a part on "the walking dead." >> reporter: the republican playbook, first a not so innocent item in rupert murdoch's "new york post." the page 6 gossip column. as expected it went viral, "the washington post," "new york times," and beyond. >> hillary clinton versus karl rove. >> last week karl came out swinging. >> it's sometimes a little bit difficult for the mainstream media to on its own say, gee, is her age a legitimate topic of

public debate. >> reporter: republicans were already attacking clinton or her handling of benghazi and even boko haram. one republican operative said karl is either an evil genius or just evil. >> carl doesn't make mistakes. he takes whispers and rumors and things with no substance and turning them into news stories. >> this is a legitimate issue. the health issues of a presidential candidate nearing 70 have always been part of the debate, and it's not going to be disallowed no matter how hard the clinton campaign tries. >> caller: clinton will turn 69 two weeks before the 2016 election. ronald reagan was eight months older when he ran in 1980. >> i would expect to see a lot of attacks like this, age or health, without any foundation whatsoever, and also ones that

go more subtly to the issue of gender and whether a woman can really do this job. >> reporter: but this woman who describes herself as cracking the glass ceiling -- >> i think we should crack it also. i am 100% in favor of that. >> reporter: -- is already getting more than her share of curveballs, and it's only the preseason for 2016. and we should note that some republicans, including newt gingrich think that rove's attacks are out of line and could even backfire, especially as the gop is trying to compete for women voters. david? >> andrea, thank you so much. i'm now joined by reince priebus, the chair of the republican national committee. welcome back to "meet the press." >> good morning, david. >> what about those republicans saying this is over the line. should karl rove apologize? >> it's up to karl rove. he's a political operative. >> but do you think it was over the line? >> look, i think health and age is fair game. it was fair game for ronald reagan. it's fair game with john mccain. when people came at john mccain and said maybe he's psychologically not fit because he was a prisoner of war. >> there was innuendo, there was a suggestion about he's just not -- his brain doesn't work

right or in this case it's her brain may not work right and she's hiding something about it. was that over the line? >> i don't think there's a graceful way to bring up age, health, and fitness for a candidate that wants to be president of the united states. i think the more important issue for me as leader of this party is what's the record of hillary clinton? what was her record as a secretary of state, benghazi, boko haram, syria. those are the issues -- >> but we can get to that. but karl rove doesn't do things by accident. what he injected was an attack into the firmament of the republican grassroots. you're head of the party. would you like to side step away

from this or would you like to double down? >> no, it's not a matter of side step for double down. it's going to be an issue. it's going to come up. we're going to be at this point at some time if hillary clinton runs for president. the issue of her health and her age is going to come up -- >> do you think she's suffering some sort of brain injury that raises legitimate questions about whether she's healthy to serve as commander in chief? >> i'm not a doctor. what i do know is the issue will come up as it does for any person running for president. what i think is going to make her rethink whether she should actually run for president -- by the way, i don't actually think she will if she had another month like she just had but the issues i just talked about -- those are the issues that make her unacceptable as a -- >> that's what i want to follow up on. the month she just said. gail collins writing in "the new york times," i'm going to put a portion up and get your response. for the right, clinton is responsible for nearly everything bad that occurs in the world including the terrible kidnapping of the nigerian school girls which happened because benghazi made us look weak or because the state department never formally designated boko haram as a foreign terrorist organization. somewhere right now someone is working on a story that will reveal that hillary clinton started the elevator fight between jay z and his sister-in-law. is the mission to persuade her

not to run? >> it's not the mission. but she's coming out with a book called "hard choices" or something like that. she's made a series of bad choices. this writer you quoted is talking about sweeping things under the rug. benghazi shouldn't be swept under the rug. four diplomats died. boko haram. these people have over 200 girls in nigeria. the syria issue. the russian -- >> just to be clear because there will be a lot of follow-up, are you suggesting that somehow hillary clinton as secretary of state who started an independent review of what happened at benghazi was trying to sweep it under the rug? >> she is trying to sweep benghazi under the rug. she absolutely is. if you want any evidence ask the families of people who lost their sons in benghazi. they've talked plenty about what happened in benghazi. the fact -- >> it doesn't mean she swept it under the rug. they may be dissatisfied -- >> when senator johnson tried to ask her questions about benghazi and her response was what difference does it make, i assure you it will be an issue

if she decides to run. my view though, david, is that given the month she just had, i doubt she actually will run for president in 2016. i know a lot of people around her want her to run, and i think that they're purposely creating this environment around here which is causing us to talk about her today. >> is she the candidate that you as the head of the republican party most fear? >> no. actually i don't fear -- i think hillary is a known product. actually i think it's sometimes worse running against a blank slate. hillary has decades of history for us to explore. you know, her role in hillary care when she was first lady. her senate experience where there's nothing significant to point to. and her secretary of state experience which is not just not significant, but there's all kinds of problems for her. >> all right, chairman priebus, always good to have you. thank you for being here. >> thank you, sir. >> we'll continue this turning to senator claire mccaskill, democrat from missouri. good to see you this morning. welcome back. >> thank you.

>> i will ask you the same question. do you think karl rove should apologize? was this over the line? >> i think karl rove is struggling to be relevant. this is a guy who took hundreds of millions of other people's money in the last cycle and had abject failure. so i think he's trying to be part of the conversation. i think we all know what this is. it's a cheap political shot. it's the kind of politics that kind of make people not want to participate, and it's too bad. >> we see a lot of this around, and i have to ask you what happens on the democratic side of the ledger as well. harry reid, the majority leader in your body, in the senate, has said this about the koch brothers and their efforts to raise money and influence the political debate. let me show that. >> are the koch brothers right to degrade our democratic process? it's too bad that they're trying to buy america, and it's time that the american people spoke out against this terrible dishonesty of these two brothers who are about as un-american as anyone that i can imagine. >> calling political opponents un-american.

is that along the same lines as what karl rove did? >> well, you know, i don't think that is something i am totally comfortable with. i get why harry reid is very frustrated with the koch brothers. i think the problem here, david, is not that the koch brothers want to spend their fortune on trying to buy elections. the problem is that so much of it is secret and dirty, dark, secret money. the american people have a right to know who is funding campaigns, and that's the problem that we have tried to fix, and the republicans continually block. that is, making all of this money come out into the light of day. >> as you look at secretary of state clinton, how she handled some of the questions that have emerged about benghazi or even about her health. as you know, a question for any candidate. do you think she could have done better? should she do more to be completely transparent? >> listen, this is a strong, smart leader who is going to be

a terrific president, and i don't care what reince priebus says. they do not want hillary clinton because they know she is going to ignite a spark of enthusiasm across this country, and she has got the strongest resume for president of anyone who has run in a very long time. so i really think she's answered all of the questions about benghazi. she's the one who called for an independent investigation, and, of course, her frustration when she said it doesn't matter was because she wants to make sure this doesn't happen again, and it was the republicans that were blocking funding for embassy security. that's why she was frustrated. >> senator, you're an interesting figure politically with regard to the clintons. back in 2006 you told my colleague jeffrey goldberg then in "the new yorker" this, hillary clinton is a sensitive subject for mccaskill. she has told people in missouri and washington that a ticket led by clinton would be fatal for democrats on the ballot because you didn't think she could win

missouri. you came out with two other prominent women to endorse barack obama at the same time hillary clinton could have made history in 2008 and yet now you're one of the first people to endorse her. what has changed over this arc of time that makes her so formidable in your mind now when she wasn't before? >> well, i think she was formidable then. it was just a very tough choice. we had two amazing candidates, and it was a difficult primary for our party because they were both so extraordinary. now she has the experience of secretary of state. i think she has enhanced her resume. she's learned so much about how you win these campaigns. she knows how to ignore all the cheap shots and stay focused on the american people and the opportunity that everybody deserves. so i just think it's her time, and i'm excited to try to be a part of it. >> reince priebus said after this past month she may think twice. do you think hillary clinton will think twice and not run given what's headed her way? >> listen, we do not know for certain that hillary clinton is going to run, but there's one thing i know for certain, karl rove engaging in cheap shots is

not going to back off hillary clinton. >> all right. senator mccaskill, we'll leave it there. thanks so much for your time. >> thank you. now, we'll turn to another big story of the week. in a surprise move, "the new york times" fired one of the most senior women in american journalism, executive editor jill abram zons. it's raising questions about equal pay for men and women and the treatment of female leaders in positions of leadership. abramson is due to give the commencement address at wake forest university tomorrow. there's where rehema ellis is for us this morning. >> reporter: the stage is set at wake forest university for a commencement speech to remember. >> everyone is talking about it. it should be really exciting. >> it's going to be bigger than all of us. it will be a pivotal moment. >> reporter: jill abramson may be in a fighting mood. her daughter posted this picture of her 60-year-old mother on instagram #pushy. as executive editor of "the new york times" abramson was one of the most powerful women in

journalism until last week when she was abruptly fired after less than three years on the job. while there are reports that abramson was terminated after she questioned whether she was paid as much as her male predecessors, in a strongly worded statement issued saturday, the newspaper's publisher denied that allegation saying, i decided that jill could no longer remain as executive editor for reasons having nothing to do with pay or gender. i concluded that her management of the newsroom was simply not working out. that ignited a furious debate on social media about whether a sexist double standard was in play. while others were asking, maybe the grievances against her are justified? why treat women as victims? a recent study on gender differences and leadership styles found that women are perceived as being less confident, more apologetic. which raises the question when women break from perceptions, are they penalized? >> there's a double standard. >> reporter: kathy phillips is the incoming senior vice dean of

the columbia business school. >> there's a lot of backlash when a woman speaks up, when she's assertive and confident. that doesn't happen if a man does the same thing. >> reporter: abramson's commencement address will be her first public appearance since she was abruptly dismissed. the university president says he can't think of a better and more timely message for the graduates of 2014. that class here is made up of 4,800 students, 50% of them men, 50% of them women. who will probably be listening closely to her every word. >> david. >> rels at . >> thanks so much. i'm joined by nbc news' maria shriver, carolyn ryan, washington bureau chief of the "new york times," and carly fiorina, former ceo of hewlett-packard. former california senate candidate. she's now global chair of opportunity international. welcome to all of you. maria, we have been talking about this. the facts of jill abramson may be murkier now, right, not completely resolved?

the larger question about equal pay, about equal treatment for women in leadership is a conversation that will go on independent of jill abramson's circumstances. what do you think? >> absolutely. i think this is a teachable moment. we don't know the facts of jill abramson's situation, but pay discrimination, pay inequity does exist. it's like global warming. only a fringe few deny its existence. it particularly affects women in low income jobs, women of color, 57 cents on the dollar. it's one of the reasons 1 in 3 women in this country, working women, are on the brink of poverty. things can change that, passage of the fair paycheck fairness act can change that. i think this is also a teachable moment for women in leadership. how do women lead? what is their style? are they judged differently? i think they are, and women have to decide for themselves what kind of leaders do they want to

be? can they withstand what being called certain names? how can they survive in the workplace? >> and that's one of the issues here. carolyn ryan, you're washington bureau chief for "the new york times." i'm put you on the spot by even asking the question, you look at her management style, tough editor obviously. so many women are telling each other time to lean in, time to get over self-confidence. is the culture ready for that? >> in terms of the culture, the one thing i worry a little bit about is it feels like there's all this legitimate pent up frustration among women about broader sexism issues, and i worry a little bit with this story that it's essentially become a caricature. so you have jill abramson, who is an extraordinary journalistic thinker and one of the best brains of her generation, formidable intellect, and now she's being caricatured as a victim, in "the new york times," which is essentially its major news department is being run by women day to day is being caricatured as a bastion of sexism which isn't true and

hasn't been my experience there. so i just worry that there's a way that much of the frustration gets transferred onto the story that isn't accurate. >> is this a case -- i mean, now you're seeing publicly in "the new york times" essentially being very clear about why they fired her, about management problems, how she was treating people, her manner with colleagues, publicly embarrassing them. it's gotten pretty acrimonious. does anything strike you about this as being a double standard? would a man be treated the same way upon an exhibit? >> absolutely not. the most obvious example is the announcement about her departure. here is a woman who having been told she has an abrasive style, how many times have women heard that? she's been a distinguished reporter for "the new york times" and editor for three years. there is not a single word in her departure announcement about her contribution, about her record, about her time at the "new york times." she is excised from history. no more lectures, please, from "the new york times" about the

treatment of women. arther salzberger, the more he talks, the more clear it becomes to me that, of course, she was treated differently. whatever the issues in the newsroom were, the dynamics about her departure would not have been the same for a man. >> i mean, not here to speak for the newspaper. i think jill is known as a truth teller, and i think she wanted -- people talk about her departure. i think she wanted it to be clear she was being fired. she didn't want the ceremonial -- >> there wasn't a single positive comment about her in her statement of departure, not thank you for your time, not thank you for a wonderful record of service to "the new york times," not a word. that is disrespect -- >> can i -- >> -- in the most public forum. >> i want to ask maria because when you and i were talking about this this weekend, i raised this as well. i have an 8-year-old daughter. fast forward to the point she's in her early 20s, the advice i might give her about getting into this business i know

something about that can be pretty rough and tumble. what qualities would i want her to have? i want her to be true to herself but i also would want her to have the toughness to deal with what she'd have to face in an industry still dominated by men, which would create a certain toughness -- >> i think any advice you give your daughter today about the workplace she's going to walk into will be outdated. the fact is the united states of america needs to modernize its laws to help women stay in the workforce. we don't have paid leave. that's one of the reasons that women drop out and then come back to lower paying jobs. in the shriver report, we reported that if we close the pay gap, we would cut poverty in half in this country at half a trillion dollars to the economy. so i think we need to have these discussions about leadership, about how women are treated, about the pay gap.

we need to talk about modernizing our law so that young women can grow up and work and still take care of their families, still be treated with respect, be judged for who they are as leaders and human beings as opposed to women or men. >> but very quickly, carly, in terms of what women case in leadership in situations, do you think it's going to change? do you think it's going to be outdated? >> it is changing. we see more women in positions of leadership. when i became the ceo of hewlett-packard, i was one out of the fortune 50. we now have 12. clearly things are getting better and yet women remain the most subjugated people on the face of the earth. women remain an underutilized resource and may i say politics is part of the problem here. when liberals use women as a political cudgel, when they basically say if you don't support our liberal orthodoxy on all these issues, you're waging a war on women, that's disrespectful to women, we are half of this great nation. every issue is a woman's issue. the dynamics around women are different than the dynamics around men. "new york times," exhibit a. >> we're going to leave it

there. maria, carly, thank you so much. coming up, we'll look ahead at some crucial primaries coming up. big political week across the country as well as a discussion of a political debate we saw this week like i don't think you're ever going to see for some time. >> i'm about as politically correct as your proverbial turd in a punch bowl. >> i think half of the republican party is democrats and half the democratic party is communists. [ male announcer ] imagine this cute blob is metamucil.

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six states coast to coast will vote in primaries and it showcases all the big national story lines of this election season. >> reporter: story line number one, the battle for the soul of the gop. three states tuesday will feature the latest round in the tea party versus establishment primaries. a battle the establishment has been winning. in kentucky, republican matt bevin has struggled in his quest to oust senate republican leader mitch mcconnell. but keep an eye on the size of the anti-mcconnell gop vote. it won't be easy for him to get these folks back. they could prove crucial in the fall. in georgia's senate, two tea party congressmen have faded. it's three establishment backed candidates that are fighting for the top two slots in the july runoff. and in idaho's second house district, mike simpson appears poised to survive his tea party challenge. the tea party could go 0 for 3 tuesday. story line number two, democrats and women. both as candidates and voters. the party is counting on them to save their senate majority. michelle nun in georgia and allison grimes in kentucky are

among a strong group of female candidates for the democrats this year. but republicans have a good story to tell here, too. there are some potentially strong female senate candidates in places like west virginia, iowa, michigan, and after tuesday oregon may be added to that list. both nun, daughter of sam, and grimes, daughter of a powerful long-time kentucky power broker, are part of another key 2014 theme. democrats banking on famous or powerful political families to win in red states. other key dynasty candidates or tuesday's ballot, mark pryor in arkansas, son of david. and jason carter in georgia, grandson of jimmy. these four join a half dozen others around the country. finally, the good, the bad, and the ugly when it comes to the health care law. kentucky's state exchange has been a success story, but out west in oregon, not so much. the gop hopes that state's troubled health insurance exchange helps elect republicans to statewide office. something they haven't done since 2002.

in fact, the republican candidate that oregon could end up nominating is a medical doctor. so, david, they see a real opportunity there to suddenly bring health care back onto the national stage in oregon. >> chuck, thanks very much. to get a sense of how some of these themes are playing around the country, our kevin tibbles went to lexington, kentucky, where one of the big primaries chuck just talked about will take place tuesday. it is today's installment of "meeting america." >> reporter: they still call lexington with its bluegrass and ponies the horse capital of the world. the historic downtown now bustles with rejuvenation and people. and with the hotly contested republican primary between long serving senate republican leader mitch mcconnell and matt bevin just a few days away we came to listen to the thoughts and concerns over issues facing the country. oh, the american stories this

old building could tell. they've been distilling spirits on this site since 1780 when the nation was in its infancy. but modern day government red tape rankles jeff weissman, owner of barrel house distilling. >> there's no better place than america. unfortunately, we have so many government regulations on us that it's cumbersome. >> reporter: so this is aged in -- >> used bourbon barrels. >> reporter: that's very nice. weissman wants his small distillery to thrive and grow and hire more people. a message he says can't be heard over all the bipartisan bickering in washington. >> i think the heated rhetoric is okay if at the end of the day you can sit down and have a bourbon together and work something out. >> reporter: putting people to work seems a common theme. >> i think the american dream got put on hold. >> reporter: outside lexington, crystal conway manages one of the commonwealth's many

prosperous horse farms. this time of year doting moms keep a close eye on their foals. crystal's not a fan of the affordable care act. she says with obamacare, government has become too invasive. >> in a lot of ways i think we are losing our freedom. they're getting involved in too many of my decisions. they shouldn't be able to tell me how i'm going to allot my paycheck each week. >> reporter: a recent nbc news/maris poll found most in kentucky, like crystal, do not like obamacare even though many who voiced an opinion do support their state-run health exchange. just as many didn't know it existed. north carolinians robert and mary ruth smith are retired. they've stopped by the barrel house distillery for a tour and a taste and now a talk.

>> the system is cracked, maybe broken. i think we have two houses that don't work as much together in trying to do what is right for the country. that's my opinion. >> reporter: like grandparents everywhere, they look to the future and have concerns. >> my kids and grand kids. >> it will be hard to get out there and find a good job i think even with good education. >> reporter: in kentucky, as in the rest of america, elections approach. they have weathered recession and have not been broken. >> americans can overcome. >> reporter: but they want their representatives to acknowledge how hard they've worked. for "meet the press," kevin tibbles. >> kevin, thanks so much. the round table is here. chuck todd who you just saw, carolyn ryan is back as well from "the new york times." also with us dr. ben carson, a neurosurgeon now retired from medicine who is making waves in republican politics to say the least. his new book is "one nation: what we can all do to save america's future." also here former democratic senator blanche lincoln. we've been talking about the midterm.

what is going to define what this race comes down to? are we going to battle about health care, immigration, or is it really just about president obama? >> well, interestingly enough, it's about more than all of those things. as i have been traveling around the country, what i have discovered is that people recognize that this is a pivotal election. this one and the one in 2016 in terms of what kind of nation -- >> do we ever cover nations that aren't pivotal moments for our country? >> i think this is more pivotal. >> what is at stake? >> what is at stake is what kind of place is america going to be? are we truly an exceptional nation with a different core of values than the rest of the world? is that what led us to the pinnacle position in the world? are we a nation that's for and by the people or for and by the government. that's what this election is about. >> what's interesting about that, chuck, is it gets to this larger thing about has obama weakened america? here at home or abroad?

>> the stakes are high, okay? the obama presidency arguably is on the line. he gets a democratic senate and domestically has a chance of doing something potentially. if the republicans get control of the senate, domestically you could argue his presidency is over and at this point it's like the last two years of bush presidency where he is going to be forced to just focus on foreign policy. but the difference i think i see out there from '06 and '10, the last two midterms we saw big change is i think the public has given up on washington, and i think you are seeing -- we're seeing enthusiasm down particularly with the middle of the electorate and we're seeing a lack of passion out there. and i think that this election is going to be defined by an electorate that has given up, that washington and politicians -- >> what do you think, senator, having left politics? >> well, i think that what's going to be critical for people is results and that's what they're really looking for, and yet i think chuck is really right, that they're kind of seeing just the bottom of the barrel, it's the scum,

washington can't produce that. you've got a lot of primaries out there right now that are going to be tough. i went through one. you're going to see the republicans in a couple of those primaries beating each other up, and it's going to make it tough in the general election. so i think people are looking for results, and i think they're really, really concerned about whether or not washington can bring them. >> yet there's so much focus even about hillary clinton. we're fast forwarding to what her leadership would be about or even what her campaign would be about. >> this is a fascinating dynamic because she's going to go on this book tour, which is really kind of a trial campaign starting next month, and one thing that's fascinating to me if you listen to her speeches just in the past few weeks, how does she handle barack obama because she doesn't seem to be running as the third term barack obama. she seems to be running as the third term for bill clinton, and what does that mean for a white house that is already weakened, that is at risk of losing the senate. if you sort of have this democratic figure, this

democratic icon out there who starts to pull all the energy of the party toward her in 2016 -- >> she had an odd statement on friday where she was asked about the midterms and she just said something very distant. it was something about, you know, well, people are going to be making some choices on this. it was not a passionate defense of the democratic party. i assume that changes and somebody will say, whoa, you can't say it like that. it didn't sound like somebody who was ready to go save barack obama's senate. >> ben carson, how do you define yourself in politics? a lot of people talking about you as a rising star in the republican party. you're not a party guy regardless, but you have certainly put government on trial in a way. here is one of the things you said about the affordable care act that raised a lot of eyebrows. i will play it. >> you know, obamacare is really, i think, the worst things that has happened in this nation since slavery, and it is in -- it is slavery in a way because it is making all of us subservient to the government,

and it was never about health care. it was about control. >> people who have health care who didn't have it before i suspect would disagree strongly with you, but i wonder in addition is that really how you wanted to be defined? how you want to put government on trial in a political way? >> well, first of all, recognize what i said, worse thing since slavery, didn't say that it was slavery. people who are well-read and particularly -- >> you said it is slavery in a way because it is making us all subservient to the government. >> right. >> that's what you said. >> and i said in a way. in a way anything is slavery that robs you of your ability to control your own life. and when you take the most important thing that you have, which is your health care, and you put that in the hands of government bureaucrats, i think you have done the wrong thing, and as i was about to say, you go back and you look at the

neomarxist literature and look at what they say. you don't have to listen to what i say, about taking control of health care of the populace and making the people dependent. this is not what america is about. do i believe in health care for everybody? absolutely. but i think there are much better ways to get there which leave the care in the hands of patients and of doctors. >> senator lincoln, winning the fight over health care is important in the midterms. it's also important if democrats want to get anything else, right? because part of the view is that health care has taken all the oxygen out of the room for president obama to get some of the other things he'd like to get done. >> uh-huh. well, the affordable care act is by far not perfect, and no piece of legislation that comes through is, but i certainly don't regret my vote on that. we had to move forward. we had to make sure that more people in this country got insured, and that's what we're doing. we're seeing it happen through

the affordable care act. it's going to take time. this kind of unbelievable legislation doesn't happen overnight. it's a surgical situation where we really have to spend the time developing how it fits, but look in arkansas. we've got over 200,000 people, working poor, who did not have health care who now have health care delivered through an exchange by private insurers. you know, that's not government. that's private industry providing them health insurance that's going to give them some coverage that they have never had. >> let me button up some of the hillary conversation we've had this morning. dr. carson, do you think she's the most formidable candidate republicans will face? do you think she's beatable? >> yes, i do think she's beatable. everybody is beatable. anybody who is human is beatable. >> right, but i'm not asking about world patterns here. i'm asking about a specific person. what do you think about her? >> you know, i have met her, talked to her on a number of occasions. she seems like an intelligent individual. i suspect the democrats can come up with a lot of people.

we're 2 1/2 years away. there are lots of possibilities. >> would you consider running? >> it wasn't on my bucket list at the time i retired. i didn't and i still don't want to. there's a lot of pressure. i'll see how things go. i'm never going to say absolutely or absolutely not until it is an absolute. >> we can come back here and talk about it some more. thank you all very much. we're going to take a break here. coming up, this growing anger that you have heard of all week over the va scandal as the head of the department of veteran affairs says he's mad as hell. will all of the anger trigger the needed reforms? i'll speak with two key military voices on that coming up here next. really... so our business can be on at&t's network for $175 dollars a month? yup. all five of you for $175. our clients need a lot of attention. there's unlimited talk and text. we're working deals all day. you get 10 gigabytes of data to share. what about expansion potential? add a line anytime for 15 bucks a month. low dues... great terms... let's close.

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my husband died at 45 years old. every time, every time my husband reached out to the va, they just kept telling him, be patient, sir. i'm here to tell you that my dead veteran husband cannot be much more patient than he is today, but me, i'm pissed. >> an emotional outpouring as frustration grows over the scandal of the veterans administration. a top va official stepped down and calls for the resignation of

eric shinseki were heard lou and clear. our pentagon correspondent jim miklaszewski. >> reporter: only a week before he went to battle on capitol hill over the growing va scandal, secretary eric shinseki in an nbc interview sounded oblivious to the growing storm. >> reporter: do you completely understand why there's that level of outrage? >> i think i do. i'm a veteran myself. >> reporter: whistle-blowers claim up to 40 veterans died while awaiting treatment in phoenix. and that administrators there and at seven other va hospitals tried to cover up the long wait times. this past week the scandal reached a boiling point. wednesday under growing calls for shinseki to resign president obama says he stands by shinseki

but then orders job nabors to oversee the va response to the controversy. thursday shinseki and his deputy faced withering questions. >> are they cooking the books? >> i'm not aware. >> reporter: who do you say to people who say you of all people have abandoned them. >> i came not to fail veterans. i came to make things better for them. >> reporter: they say talk is cheap. >> well, talk isn't cheap where i'm concerned. >> reporter: friday under secretary resigns. the va critics call petzel a scapegoat since he was due to retire soon. overall, not a good week for a decorated four-star general amid serious questions about whether he will survive. >> thanks for that. jim is here with us this morning. also here i'm joined by wes moore, former army captain who served in afghanistan. wrote the best selling book and the pbs series about veterans

coming back which is airing now, and adam kinzinger republican congressman from illinois is an iraq veteran. still serves in the air national guard. welcome to all of you. questions about whether shinseki should resign is kind of the political context. congressman, let me ask you, how did we get to this moment? so many veterans in the system not being served well enough. >> well, i think that's the big question. i mean, when i got elected, i got elected in 2010, the issue of va backlog was on the front burner, people were talking about it. there was talk a year ago of should we ask for shinseki's resignation. i don't jump on the resignation bandwagon but this was gone from incompetence to something criminal. >> people who have been told to

wait, we'll get to you, we'll get to you and they're hiding that. >> yeah, and this is absolutely the wrong thing. i think it's time for shinseki to resign. he's a great american but somebody there who knows how to fix the problem. >> jim, you have been could covering government for a long time, from the white house to the pentagon, all over town. i spoke to somebody very high up in the administration that said, this is a tech problem. this is a technology problem. shinseki is a good guy. just like kathleen sebelius, very competent, but their departments are too technologically challenged to keep up with the demand. >> first of all, i agree with the congressman. secretary shinseki was a great general. he served the military well, but, quite frankly, instead of shinseki what the va and the veterans need right now is a general george patton. somebody who is going to be aggressive and fight politically

and shinseki -- >> what came through from your reporting, this is not somebody who necessarily commands the stage to say we're going to change things. >> and that's been his m.o. throughout his entire career. but very quickly, back to the problem itself, first of all, you have the most entrenched bureaucracy in washington. you have a va that is overwhelmed and underresourced, and i don't care what people say, shinseki or not, there's just not enough money right now in the federal government to fix it. other changes have to be made. >> you're doing something remarkable on pbs which is this series about talking to veterans coming home from iraq and afghanistan and asking them what that is like to come home. tremendous demand from our returning soldiers, for men and women who have mental health challenges, who have physical challenges. they're going to need the va for a long time. it's not just the aging baby boomers from the vietnam war. do you despair over how that's possibly going to be addressed? >> it's a despair and a heart break. this is something that was promised to our men and women.

as tammy duckworth said before, when we asked our men and women to go overseas and serve, they didn't tell us to wait. we didn't tell our country, hold off six months, hold off on a year on these operations and then we'll go serve. why now when our men and women are coming back home are we asking them to wait? one thing i see as this whole thing continues to evolve, these are not new phenomenons in our community. these things have been going on for a decade plus thinking about iraq and afghanistan veterans, and even as we -- what we're not looking for, we're not looking for battlefield promotions, moving seats on a deck. we want genuine accountability, but also genuine action. not something that's going to take months but weeks to get to the bottom of this. >> one provocative thought from colonel jack jacobs. he wrote on op-ed, he said it makes no sense to have a parallel universe to take care of our veterans. there's no reason veterans can't be seen by private doctors, the same doctors who treat everybody else. should we get rid of this arm of the va and put them into the regular health care system? >> i'm not going so far as to say get rid of the arm of the va but i have a bill that says if live "x" amount of miles away, you can go to your local doctor. that's a good way to get rid of the backlog. if somebody is waiting, let them

go to the doctor and bill the va. this is a situation where there's i think things that can be done and i think what surprised me is the president has made every decision he can to avoid make it looking like he's making some kind of leadership decision. i think make a leadership decision. put somebody in there. when secretary gates heard about the problem at walter reed, he fired a whole bunch of people and the walter reed problem was fixed in a big way. >> we're going to leave it there. thank you. we'll take a break and coming up, our pete williams gets answers to the questions that you wanted to ask glenn greenwald has been out a lot. the man who brought edward snowden's story to the world. "meet the press" is brought to you by -- all stations come over to mission a for a final go.

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we turn now we turn now to the global debate over privacy and security ignited by whistle-blower edward

snowden's revelations about the u.s. secret mass surveillance programs. nbc's justice correspondent pete williams interviewed journalist glenn greenwald who won the pulitzer prize for reporting on snowden's revelations. >> reporter: he's the man who first revealed edward snowden's leaks about u.s. surveillance to the world. glenn greenwald tells the story of how it happened in a new book "no place to hide." he's been talking about it all week. now it's time for your questions submitted through social media. helen asks, how much are activists, humanitarians or those outspoken about government policies targeted and how? >> we publish a document in the book about six different individuals that the government considers to be, quote, radicalizers who are not members of terrorist organizations or plotting terrorist attacks works just express radical ideas. the government has collected their intimate online sexual chats, visits to pornographic sites and plots in this document how to release this information to undermine their credibility.

there are people who visit the wikileaks site. or if they support the group anonymous. >> mary barber asks, in a recent interview you referred to daniel ellsberg. he revealed the pentagon papers. ellsberg stayed to face whatever the consequences would be. how are we supposed to see snowden in the same light? he ran like a coward and ellsberg shows courage and stayed in the country where he lives as a free man today. how do you reconcile the difference? >> the best answer is from daniel ellsberg himself who in july of 2013 in "the washington post" wrote an op-ed entitled edward snowden was right to flee in which he said that the world inside the american judicial system and american political culture is radically different now as compared to when he stepped forward to go on trial. if edward snowden were to go on trial, he would be rendered incommunicado, he would not be released on bail, he couldn't argue his case to the public. >> two related questions now. aliz asks what is his response to critics who call him a traitor, and mary jane jones

says how does he feel about making the u.s. a sitting duck to our enemies? >> it's always the case that people who bring unwanted disclosure that makes people in power uncomfortable are called traitors. i look at that as a badge of honor. i think it's a testament to the fact we're doing our jobs. >> reporter: as you know, the heads of several u.s. intelligence agencies and also in the uk have said that these disclosures have caused potential terrorists to change their method of communication which makes it harder to detect. what about that? does that concern you? >> this claim that these disclosures have helped the terrorists is the same script from which they always read whenever people shine a light on what they're doing and i hope nobody is willing to accept it on faith but instead demands evidence that that has happened because there actually is none. >> reporter: and ricardo fernandez says first thank mr. greenwald, then ask him what is the chance we can get legislation to stop decades of the abusive application of the states secret privilege and related doctrine policy act and

abuses. >> one of the most encouraging aspects of the story has been that there has been a complete breakdown in the traditional standard divisions between left and right or conservative and liberal, republican and democrat. there has been this extremely i think inspiring bipartisan coalition that has emerged that has demanded that there be constraints imposed on the nsa. >> reporter: greenwald says he has plans to reveal some of the most spectacular documents snowden leaked on the intercept, a digital magazine. its parent company has a collaboration agreement with nbc. pete williams, nbc news, new york. >> you can see a longer version of that interview on our website. that's at meetthepress nbc.com. our discussions are generating a lot of discussion on twitter this morning. our round table is coming back next. we'll be right back. nb

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berkshire hathaway home services. good to know. final moment with our round table. we've been talking about hillary clinton a lot this morning. provoked some lively reaction on twitter. politico's glenn this thrush. ha ha ha, pause, sip of coffee. the idea that after this past month she might say, no, probably not. >> this really is -- there are republicans who believe their best shot at beating her is to do whatever it takes to make her not want to run because the demographic problem of particularly among older white women flocking to her candidacy the first time, i have looked at evidence of this with women candidates first time run for the u.s. senate and governor. it's real and it makes her almost unbeatable and that's what makes a lot of republicans nervous. >> all right. thank you all very much for being here. appreciate the discussion very

much. that's all for today. we are not going to be here next week because of nbc sports coverage of auto racing, formula one. but we will be back on june 1st. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." losing the house but at the same time you're thinking my family is with me. everybody's safe. all of my friends are out. that's what matters. >> some welcome news for scorched southern california today. firefighters are winning the battle rieg now, but the odds may be stacked against them in the war that is the summer fire season. president obama is sending a clear message to the latino community that he cares about them and wants to push immigration reform forward. >> that's one reason for the pick for hud but many think it has to do with 2016. >> no more lectures please from the new york times about the

treatment of oh women system pay in equity exists like global warming. only a few deny the existence. >> that may be. is the woman who used to the lead the new york times really the best person to make the argument for work place equality? we'll talk about that. plus, death by firing squad in 2014. some say it is cruel and unusual. one lawmaker wants it back. i will ask why. later, punishing bullying with fines. even jail time. a look at the town that wants to be the toughest in america on bullying. why some say it is a really bad idea. good sunday to you. i'm craig mel vain. we start with breaking news in turn california where all evacuation orders have been lifted in the areas affected by the massive wildfires. all of the road closures have been lifted as well. 11 fires, over 39 square miles have been scorching a path of deare instruction since tuesday while all of the fires are mostly contained now. there are new fearses this

sunday afternoon that what we have seen over the past few days could indicate a worse than usual fire season the to come. in that part of the country that's saying a lot. a new report shows federal government spending expectses to be somewhere around $137b9 8 billion fighting fires this season. $470 million more than what's available right now. let's get to thbs's jennifer bjorkland live in escondido. what's it looking like there now? what more do we know about the cause of the fires? >> reporter: what it's looking like here is very good, craig. we are at base camp where they are demobilizing. you see few fire trucks. not because they are on the fire lines. they are getting to go home as well as some residents. the evacuation orders have been lifted. the causes of the fire under investigation. all of them except for the one fire, the bernardo fire which we

know for good reasons were started by a backhoe operator who accidentally sparked the fire and it got away from him. that's the only one we have a cause for so far. looking ahead, the biggest problem firefighters are going to have is money. that's a big problem. you said the budget, again, is nearly half a billion dollars short for this year. the difference will have to be borrowed from money that's set up for other firefighting measures like brush fires and controlled burn. it's a conundrum since that keeps fires from run away many the first place. the forest service have had the to borrow against themselves for 7 of 12 years. especially last year the sequester slashed the budget for firefighting causes. 2012-13 they borrowed a combined $12 billion from other programs. the solution is in the works with new legislation. if the adjustment makes it

through, starting in october of oh 2015 there will be ale federal emergency fund they can draw from. that's the kind of emergency that would threaten urban areas. they will have some budget to look forward to. that's not going to help this year. it won't take effect until next year if it passes. >> jennifer, thank you. new details today in the controversy over the firing of new york times executive editor jill abramson. times publisher arthur salzburger speaking out saying gender wasn't an issue. rehema ellis is in north carolina where abramson is expected to deliver the commencement address tomorrow. this will be her first public appearance since the firing. what can we expect to hear from her? >> we have not gotten an advance ared copy of the speech but students want insight about what

happened at the times. they want to hear guidance about what they should do as they move forward. 4800 graduates she's drael. 50% men, 50% women. they want to know what the future holds for them. the firing of abram areson sent shock waves through the immediate kwa world. it also ignited an old debate across the country about how women lead and whether they are treated to a different standard than men. we have not yet heard from jill abramson herself. as you point out the publisher of the papers has tried to make his case clearer. in a statement late saturday it says in part, i heard repeatedly from her newsroom colleagues, women and men, about the decisions including arbitrary decision-making, inadequate communication and the public mistreatment of colleagues. he dismissed a notion that it had to do with pay saying abram areson's a latest pay package

was actually 10% more than that of her predecessor and, according to salzburger she was warned before to change her approach. we have had knot heard anything from abramson but we heard from her daughter in the form of a picture on instagram. it's a picture of her mother in boxing gloves hash tagged # pushy. people are very interested and even the president of the university said he thinks her speech will be very timely for the graduates to hear. >> lots of folks are will be listening tomorrow. rehema, thank you. i want to bring in terry o'neal from the national organization for women. terry, good to see you. ken oleta woet in the new yorker saying there were a gnu of reas -- number of reasons for the firing but the last straw was a ek fu

weeks ago when abramson decided to hire a lawyer to complain that her salary was not equal to that of her predecessor, bill keller. in a statement, there have been consistent bin correct reports that jill's compensation package wasn't comparable with her predecessor's. that's not true. jill's compensation package was comparable. in fact, by her last full year it was more than 10% higher than his. it seems this is about more than money. how much does it have to do with how female managers are perceived? >> i think perception is a huge part of it and stereotypes are playing into the firing of jill abramson from everything i have heard. it is clear arthur salzburger's statement was with the advice of a lawyer. i wonder if we can call him

pushy. that's what got jill called pushy. >> there are some who were calling her pushy before that. >> not the women in the newsroom. it turns out she was very much admired by the women in the newsroom. she would check in with them. she was open with them. she encouraged them. many report they found her to be a mentor. when mr. salzburger says, oh, they didn't like it, i would take it with an enormous grain of salt. >> the firing continues to lead to a broader discussion of gender issues. this is what maria shriver said this morning on "meet the press." does exist. it's like global warming. only a fringe few deny its existence.

it particularly affects women in low income jobs, women of color, 57 cents on the dollar. it's one of the reasons 1 in 3 women in this country, working women, are on the brink of poverty. . >> we saw fast food workers protesting wages far lower than abramson's. how can attention being paid to this matter impact other working women? >> i think it does help. my organization is working with restaurant opportunities center to get attention to the tipped minimum wage. fast food workers aren't tipped. but tipped workers are at $2.15 nationwide. that's a women's issue. maria shriver's latest report is devastating. millions of women supporting their families and living on the edge because of stereotyped thinking such as women don't need or deserve equal pay. i think that the jill abramson

situation is going to elevate a national conversation about pay scales for women up and down the line. tack only be good. >> what do you want to hear from her tomorrow at wake forest? >> tomorrow is about the kids graduating. the young men and women. right now i really admire jill abramson. whatever she has to say, i eep in her corner. >> terry o'neal from the national organization for women. thank you. >> thank you. he is not a conservative. that type of cowardice and inability to represent constituents is why he's vulnerable. >> the tea party challenger to the senate minority leader. how vulnerable the mitch mcdonnell? really? plus, benghazi, boko haram and a bang on the head. are gop leaders revealing how they would go after hillary clinton should she run. the brain trust after this.

then we gave each person a ribbon to show how many years that amount might last. i was trying to, like, pull it a little further. [ woman ] got me to 70 years old. i'm going to have to rethink this thing. it's hard to imagine how much we'll need for a retirement that could last 30 years or more. so maybe we need to approach things differently, if we want to be ready for a longer retirement. ♪ i love my son, but he never cleans up.

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i think the more important issue for me as leader of the party is what's the record of hillary clinton? what was her record as secretary of state? benghazi, boko haram, you know, syria, russia. those are going to be the issues that i believe will cause her to rethink -- >> but we can get to that. >> that was republican national committee chairman reince priebus. the brain trust is here. bob herbert, lynn sweet, washington bureau chiefr from the chicago sun times and hector bareto, former small business administrator under george w. bush. thank you for being with me. bob, lots of folks are concerned

about hillary clinton's health. this is a sampling from the sunday morning shows. >> what i'm questioning is whether or not it's a done deal that she's running. she would not be human if she did not take this into consideration. she'll be 69 at the time of the 2016 election. >> any presidential candidate or vice presidential candidate will have to answer questions about their health. >> she's in the prime of her political life. she's got the energy. she's articulate. >> bob wither age and her healt. are they fair game? >> anything is fair game in politics. you can talk about her health. but there is no evidence that there is anything wrong with hillary's health. i don't think the republicans can make headway there. what i think could be a problem is her age. >> really? >> sexism rears its ugly head here. we have a double standard.

i hope i'm wrong but i think it is more difficult for a woman closing in on age 70 to run for president than for a man at age 70 or older. >> do you buy that, lynn? >> i buy that there is plenty of ageism around, yes. i don't know if that will be the defining issue for hillary clinton's decision to run. there is a lot more factors in that. i understand what bob said. but i think the issues of health are on the table. they are for everyone. not in the context karl rove put on the table recently. >> he can the tor, republicans don't have a clear front runner at this point. do you think the democrats would be raising questions about the health of the gop -- >> sure? >> really? you think so? >> absolutely. they have for decades. i remember when they were talking about reagan. he was too old, senile. you heard it about john mccain.

i don't see much difference this time around. it is a legitimate issue that will be discussed. they need the medical records. hopefully they won't come out are drip, drip, drip the way they usually do. this will be an issue in the campaign. >> someone told me once you will always be too something. brain problems or not, how much of a problem are benghazi and boko haram? how much of a problem are those things for mrs. clinton? >> well, the republicans are already tying to make it a problem. so in that case, it won't go away. her whole tenure as secretary of state. that is fair game. it will be slice and diced by republicans who have the republicans in the house sta starting their benghazi hearings. it means the conclusions and the fac facts, well, there is nifr

enough to satisfy the hillary clinton critics. the issue is already not waiting for her to decide if she'll run or not in 2016. >> san antonio mayor julian castro is headed to the cabinet to run hud. this is what former housing secretary hillary cisneros said yesterday. he advised castro to take the job. quote, i advised that he accept the position for president obama. i thought if he was going to be yal material in 201 he needed to be more than mayor. how clear a signal is this, bob herbert, that castro will be on the 2016 ticket? >> i don't know if it's a signal he'll be on the ticket? he was going to be considered as a running mate on the democratic ticket. it is a smart move for someone with national ambitions.

you have to talk about urban policy which we don't have. you have child poverty and how he handled himself as hud secretary will be more of a determining factor as to how attractive he remains as a possible vice presidential candida candidate. >> mayor castro would not be the only latino in the cabinet. could it be another obstacle for republicans to overcome as they quote voters in 2016 and this years as well? >> we'll have to see what he does. supposedly they offered him a positi position before and he said no. i would like to see more in the urban development part p of the agency. there are a lot of people in urban cores like african-americans, hispanics, college graduates without a lot of economic opportunity. >> you sound skeptical, hector,

with regard to whether this appointment was done purely on the merits. >> well, i just think it's interesting. the timing is interesting. henry said it himself. if you want to be considered for a vice president or raise your stature, you can't do it as a mayor. you need to be in the cabcabine according to henry. they think it is a political situation. >> lynn, what do we know about whether he was offered a job in the cabinet last year and said no? >> i don't know about that for sure. here's what's interesting, to follow up what you are talking about. this appointment didn't come in a vacuum. it came in then context that sean donovan who is the hud h c secretary. sean donovan is moving to the office of management and budget. why is are there a vacancy there? the woman who headed it, sylvia matthews burrell was moved to hhs to replace hhs secretary

kathleen sebelius. it is interesting to look at the broader reshuffle of the obama cabinet at this time. >> good to see you all. thank you. >> thanks. >> thank you. >> taking to the air, powered by the sun. today's big idea -- a solar-powered airplane. also, how one town is trying to protect its kids from bullies. some are asking has the town gone too far? &t's network for $175 dollars a month? yup. all five of you for $175. our clients need a lot of attention. there's unlimited talk and text. we're working deals all day. you get 10 gigabytes of data to share. what about expansion potential? add a line anytime for 15 bucks a month. low dues... great terms... let's close. new at&t mobile share value plans. our best value plans ever for business.

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more now from abujja, nigeria. bill? >> reporter: good afternoon. good luck johnen than is on his way back here to nigeria's caple tall from the summit at which there was a great deal of tough talk and big promises. now they have to do something. there was more criticism of nigeria today from the u.s., from senator dianne feinstein who basically said nigeria is doing nothing and when you do nothing terror increases. there is pressure on this country and on all five african leaders who agreed on things like sealing the borders more effectively, more joint pale trolls and more intelligence sharing in order to combat boko haram. really that's going to be tough. they've got no history of joint action. in fact, just of mutual suspicion. as they talked, boko haram acted. in cameroon, kidnapping 11 chinese construction workers. just across the border in

nigeria, killing roughly around 40 villagers. there are reports in the british newspaper, the daily telegraph that maybe boko haram are prepared to release some of the girls, maybe to drop its demand that its prisoners be released and the newspaper is citing sources close to the group. there is no proof it's happening. that's not the way normally boko haram acts. it is a ruthless terrorist group. of the girls themselves, no word whatsoever. back to you, craig. >> bill neely, thank you. if a lawmaker has his way the firing squad would be the preferred method of kpe kpugs in the united states. i will talk to the lawmakerment also, tuesday's tea party test to the bluegrass state. we'll go to kentucky to get perry bacon to handicap bevin versus mcconnell.

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california chrome has won the preakness! california chrome did it! >> california chrome takes the second jewel in the triple crown saturday with the kentucky derby and preakness behind him, the next challenge is the belmont stakes in three weeks. a win are there puts him in rare air. the last time there was a triple crown winner -- 1978. back to the news now. firing squads. sounds like something out of the wild west, a thing of the past perhaps. not if some in utah have their way. lawmakers will soon reconsider -- i should say soon consider a measure that would bring back the firing squad. this comes less than three weeks after an inmate in oklahoma died of a heart attack because prison officials botched his execution. clayton lockett was the first prisoner to receive a three-drug cocktail -- drug drugs the state is keeping secret.

the drug penalty has been put on hold but in utah executions are still on. joining me now state representative paul ray. good to see you. thanks for being with me. you contend a firing squad would be a more humane way to kill prisoners. how is getting shot more haw mane than being put to sleep and having your heart stopped? >> it's a back-up. if the cocktails aren't available we would have the firing squad as a backup which is what we used in the last execution in 2010. once the bullet pierces the heart, the individual is dead. there is to question about do we get the right mix of drugs, anything like that. it is efficient. it happens. it's taken care of. >> we are showing viewers at home the contraption you guys used in utah when firing squadses were allowed. i understand one of the reasons the state did away with the

squads is because it helped give inmates excessive media attention. that was before the popularity of social media. are you no longer concerned about that? >> we have to look at the whole picture. yes, there is media attention. also, they will have media attention in the trials, lawsuits and so forth that come are from the lethal injection drug if they challenge that. this is a back-up. >> i understand the prisoner is strapped to a chair. shooters aim for the heart. walk us through how the process would work in terms of the firing squad. >> how the firing squad works is you have five officers with weapons. four have are live rounds, one has a blank round. they have no clue if they fired the fatal shot or a blank round. the inmate is strapped into the chair. there is a hood over their head. they are executed on command.

>> wyoming and missouri tried and failed to do this. what's different in utah? >> what's different in utah is we have used it in the past. it's the last execution in 2010. we used the the firing squad. it's not anything out of the norm for us. we are set up to do that. we have done it. it has worked for us. >> why did you stop after 2010. >> at this point we have inmates on death row but they haven't yet exhausted their appeals. in 2004 legislation was passed to put lethal injection as the source of that. but that was before there was the problems we are having with the lethal injection which is why we are looking for backup with the firing squad. >> what you are doing in utah is a direct result of problems we have seen in places like oklahoma with regards to the lethal injection, the three-drug cocktail. >> right. it's the inavailability of the cocktail from europe that we have and the refusal to sell to

the u.s. and ongoing lawsuits on it. that comes together and we have a second option if it's needed. >> how real is the concern that a modern court would consider death by firing squad cruel and unusual and kons consequeconseq unconstitutional. >> it's been challenged already and we'll go there again if we have to lt it is allowed by the supreme court, so we have the right to use it. >> state representative paul ray in utah. thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> here is a quick look at stories making news on a sunday afternoon. in bosnia, thousands are trying to get away from rising flood waters therement three months worth of rain fell in the past three days. it is the worth flooding there in more than a century. more than two dozen are dead. thousands of homes are without power and clean drinking water.

back here, the vast victim in april's school stabbing spree has left the hospital. greg keener was one of those hurt at franklin regional high school in pennsylvania. one of his classmates was arrested. it was finally graduation day for the former rutgers player paralyzed on the fieldment eric la grande received a degree in labor relations and spoke at commencement telling graduates he's an example that anything is possible. the former defensive tackle was a junior in 2010 when he suffered a spinal cord injury. bullying in schools, online, at home. it has seen a rise in recent years. some say because social media gives bullies more ways to taunt. the city of carson if southern california is proposing one of the toughest anti-bullying ordinances. everyone from kindergarten to

age 25 is included and punishments start with fines up to criminal misdemeanor charges. critics say something needs to be done but this measure goes too far. city council man mike gibson who wrote the ordinance is with us live. here in new york, ross ellis, ceo of stomp out bullying. thangs for being with me. >> thank you. >> let's start in california. give me a sense of why carson felt this was needed? >> it was needed for the simple fact that we have read too many times in newspapers and on television that young people have committed suicide as a result of being bullied. on november 7 in a neighboring city a young man, 15 years of age, committed suicide. because he was bullied. not only in elementary school -- excuse me, middle school, but also high school. if you look at what transpired

in oxnard, california, a new years ago, a young man came out. he was shot and killed in his math class by a young man who misunderstood him and joined into the bullies. we believe in carson this would deter and get the help that young people need to address this particular issue. >> what kind of action would lead to a fine, a misdemeanor and how much jail time are we talking about? >> we are not talking about jail time. we are talking about a fine. the first infraction would be $100, administered civilly by a prosecutor within the city of carson who would issue a particular citation of $100. we hope that will -- the parents get involved and get help for the child. if it happens a second time, it is $200.

again, with the premise that the person who is causing the bullying would get help. if it happens a third time it's a fine of $500. the parents can face misdemeanor charges and also counseling as well. we want to put a stop to this. >> to the surprise of a lot of folks out there your organization is against the proposal in california. >> correct. >> why? >> you know what? bullying is horrible, extremely painful, but i would rather see bullies get help before this even happens. many parents will say, no, not my kid. they're not a bully. what's a cowle hundred dollars to them if they don't believe their child is a bully. >> you don't think it would work? >> i don't. in my opinion i don't think it will work. i would rather see the child get help. >> councilman, the book is "bully nation." she writes in part, labeling kids as bullies or victims

create as divide in situations where one person's story is right and the others's is wrong or irrelevant. state mandates have forced schools to develop zero are tolerance for what are often normal childhood conflicts, conflicts we need to teach children to work through rather than shielding them. was there any effort to address bullying there without criminalzation? >>absolutely. this ordinance does not crimi l criminalize a child. it was an ordinance offered, passed unanimously in carson at city council. it has a second reading on tuesday. >> if it criminalizes parents what message does that send to someone who is a potential pulley? >> the premise is hope that the family and the child causing this behavior to other innocent children will get the necessary help and counseling he or she needs in order to go along and be a good citizen.

we have to do something. time and again, we have seen that bullies continue to prey, stalk, harass and intimidate. we had a young lady who testified she tried to do bodily harm to herself as a result of words that was expressed to her. she was fat. she was ugly. i grew up at a time when people said sticks and stones may break my bones but words may never hurt. that's not the true. words are hurting people, piercing people, causing depression and causing them to commit suicide. we need to stop this and make sure we hold parents accountable. >> right, right. last word here, ross. we can agree something needs to be done. >> of course. >> you don't -- what more should we do? >> when a child is called a name, it is terrible. you want to empower the child so they are able to handle it and walk away not feeling terrorized by the bully.

when a child comes in and threaten s another child that's when you call in legal. that's when you want to do the fines but i don't believe the fines will work. >> we didn't get into the definition of bullying. >> which is totally overused. >> it's something quite subjective. mike gib son, thank you so must have. ross ellis in new york. thank you as well. this is a toic that we are going to continue to follow as well. there is a story on the website right now about carson, california's anti-bullying plan. check out the web page for updates after the council's final decision this week on msnbc.com/craig- melvin. flying by the light of the sun. it is not a science fiction dream anymore. it is today's big idea next. shos a tall order. up your game. up the ante. and if you stumble, you get back up. up isn't easy, and we ought to know. we're in the business of up. everyday delta flies a quarter of million people

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the solar impulse ii is completely covered by solar panels. solar energy generates power for the four motors and allows the plane to fly at night. it is an update to the first solar-powered airplane, the solar impulse that flew across the united states last year. bertrand pickard is the pilot and founder. good to see you. thanks for carving out time for us. first of all, what makes you confident that the plane can fly around the world successfully using just solar power? >> hi, craig. nice to be with you. honestly, to answer your question, we are not sure that it will work. you know it's a first. nobody has ever been able to fly around the world on a solar airplane. like every pioneer, every explorer, we have to try. if we don't try, we'll never make it. >> why are we trying this? what's your motivation here? >> i come from a family of

explorers. my grandfather was the first man in the stratosphere. my father made the deepest dive with the u.s. navy to the bottom of the marinas trench, seven miles down. i would say it's in my education to try to achieve dreams, try to fulfill the impossible. until now it was considered to be impossible to fly day and night on a solar airplane because people thought the technology would not work and it work. not only for the airplane which flies across america but all the technologies can be use ared also on the ground. you know, to be more clean, protect the natural resourceses of the planet. >> what does the plane look like inside and out? >> you have to imagine an airplane that is 72 meter wingspan. this is about 260 feet. it's bigger than a jumbo jet. it is lighter than the a small van because it is made of carbon fiber.

it's very strange to look. it flies slowly. it is sensitive to turbulence, but it flies forever. >> if this goes well, how likely is it that this is something that could be used to transport everyday passengers? >> i would be crazy to say it's possible and stupid to say it's impossible. it is true that today the technology exists just to carry one pilot in the solar airplane. but when the wright brothers, 100 years ago, made their first flight, the technology only allowed them to be alone on board. you have seen the extraordinary developments in aviation. there will be new technologies. two, four, eight people and one day maybe electric airplanes will transport electric passengers. i hope. i have to say. >> when do you plan to make this an around the world voyage? >> in march next year, 2015. we plan to start from the united

arab emirates, fly to china, cross the pacific to the united states, cross the u.s., cross the atlantic, get to europe, and back to the emirates. this is about 25 days of flight that will be spread over a period of three months. we can also make events each time we stop at schools, universities, for the governments and so on. >> bertrand pickard, we will be watching, sir. thank you for your time. do you have a big idea? let us know about it on twitter with the hashtag # whats the big idea. or shoot us an e-mail at msnbc@msnbc.com uni.com. thousands of gallons of oil spilled after a pipe burst. it's happening more these days, oil spills. our friends at now this news looked at the surprising numbers. >> in 2013, there were 7,662 oil

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an update now on a story that we brought you last month here. 53-year-old steve u it will tash is out of the hospital. a group of young people attacked him back on april 2nd after he accidentally had hit a little boy with his pick-up truck and got out of the trouk check on had him. four men have been charged with assault with intent to murder. a fifth person, a 16-year-old,

is being charged as a juvenile with assault and ethnic intimidation. we talk to steve's kids after that attack. they were able to raise nearly $200,000 to help pay for his medical bills. all of this happening in detroit. now to a political story we've been following on this show for months. a political contest now in its final hours. we'll soon get our first look at whether republican senate leader mitch mcconnell can hang on to his seat. challenged by matt bevin. tea party support remembers predicting a late surge. here's matt bevin this morning on "up." >> the man is not a conservative and he's not doing anything to fight the obama agenda and he's using his minority status as an excuse for doing nothing and that type of dourd cowardice and

that type of inability to represent his constituents is why he is vulnerable and going to lose this seat. >> covering every bit of the contest from kentucky, so busy couldn't even get to a camera, on the phone for us, our political editor for the grio.com, perry, you heard bevin. virtually every poll has him down by at least 30 points. this month's nbc news/maris poll has him down by a whopping 32. >> reporter: craig, all you need to know, matt bevin has two events today. mitch mcconnell, not campaigning today. that's what i really -- i'm in ohio right now about ten minutes from the kentucky border. bevin's all over the place in terms of campaigning but the sense is he's going to come up short. mcconnell was vulnerable but bevin has struggled to really db

bevin's really struggled to show my mitch mcconnell should be thrown out. he's arguing mitch mcconnell is insufficiently conservative and that's kind after hard argument to make. >> by all accounts this race should have been a little easier for matt bevin. mitch mcconnell not wild lly popular in the blue grass state. his approval at about 45%. why was bevin never able to capitalize? >> two things. mcconnell is in a great job of defining bevin. there's been a whole controversy of bevin had a website that he went to m.i.t. and he didn't. bevin attended a cockfighting rally. mcconnell has attacked bevin very well. mcconnell has not may that mistake. remember when charlie crist ran in florida, he famously

supported the stimulus talking about how great obama is. mcconnell's not made that kind of mistake. they basically have the same views on every issue. it is hard to say we have to throw out mcconnell to be a mr conservative person. mcconnell's done a good job of proving he's pretty conservative. that's really helped him in this campaign. third thing is mcconnell's made this argument over and over again, i need experienced guy. you don't want to throw me out and replace me with a freshman because i am a powerful person in washington. people in kentucky like that. this state doesn't have a lot of influence otherwise. they have a little bit of pride in having the number two man in the senate there. >> little pride and a little pork. always a tough day on the campaign trail when you have to explain why were you at a cockfight, too. perry bacon on the ground for us in kentucky, thanks. i'll see you next saturday, 2:00 eastern. right now though -- "disrupt"

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thanks for disrupting your afternoon. i'm karen finney. political opportunity may be opening. karl rove just can't help himself. still talking about brain injuries. >> being a front-runner is being on a perch that everyone else is going to try to knock you off of. >> people say she's it, it's a done deal. i'm not so certain. >> i actually doubt very much whether she actually will run. >> concussion is by definition a traumatic brain injury. >> i think karl rove's effort is pathetic. >> about as inappropriate a thing you can say. >> i'm not the person who said brain damage. >> k