you get tonight's "last word." >> thank you. >> i'm ari melber. thank you for joining us. the democrats trump it. let's play "hardball." >> good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with the sound of trumpets, the sound i heard last night from kentucky. the voice of a gutsy young woman taking on the old political establishment, the voice of alison lundergan grimes telling senate republican leader mitch mcconnell that this november battle's going to be, as she put it so boldly, between you and me. with those bold words, the 35-year-old kentuckian threw down the gauntlet, challenging mcconnell person to person, saying she'll do to him what he threatened but couldn't do to president obama, deny him another term in office. well, tonight, i can hear other

candidates trumpeting the same spirit, showing they are ready to fight all-out campaigns this summer, not only cast aside a republican takeover of the senate through victories in arkansas, louisiana, and alaska, but win, as well, those big state governorships in california, new york, pennsylvania, and perhaps even florida. there's a fire in those ranks, a readiness to take their candidacies directly to the people and not let their general election rivals tie them either to the president himself or the political wins of a mid presidential term election. call them the fighters, i will. from alison lundergan grimes to michelle nunn, mary landrieu, they are out there now ferocious to be where they are going to be in november. well, david corn is washington bureau chief for mother jones and msnbc analyst and joy reid is host of "the reid report." alison lundergan grimes is out with an ad today, let's watch the new ad.

>> this is a frustrating time in our country. the economy is still struggling, people are working harder for less, and here in kentucky, we feel it more than most. and it seems no matter how many elections we have, nothing gets better in washington. it only gets worse. a lot of that is because of the people at the top in both political parties. if we keep sending them back, nothing will change. i'm running because i believe we need a senator who puts partisanship aside and works with both democrats and republicans to do what's right for kentucky and for our country. >> well, her message was very sharp last night as she attacked mcconnell as being out of touch and out of town. let's watch. >> i'm here to tell you tonight, my fellow kentuckians, i am not an empty dress, i am not a rubber stamp, and i am not a cheerleader. i am a strong kentucky woman, who is an independent thinker. we all know, washington is broken.

it's not working for kentucky, and after 30 years, it is mitch mcconnell at the center of the gridlock, obstruction, and extreme partisanship that we see. kentucky is tired of a senator who proudly calls himself the doctor of no, the guardian of gridlock. i'm running because kentucky deserves better. we deserve a senator for the people of this state. >> i love that stuff. here's how "the washington post" described that performance, "grimes delivered a barn burner of a speech tuesday night, revealing herself as a much more sure-footed candidate with a kind of southern swagger reminiscent of late texas governor ann richards." pretty well said there. joy, let me ask you about this. what i liked ability her is she stuck it to this guy. what's it like, don't go hiding behind the fact you're running against obama or something like that or the times. you're running against me and i'm going to meet you out there. i loved it.

>> chris, i got to tell you, it was so smart. i think alison lundergan grimes is emerging as one of the strongest candidates they could put up in kentucky. republicans want to nationalize the midterms, make them about obama, obamacare, she is making it not just local, but personal. it's one on one, mitch mcconnell versus me, and when you compare them, you've got mcconnell, terrible approval ratings and a sense he's disconnected from kentucky. she is making it about her state. she's tailored to her state, saying it's you and me and i'm the person who represents the ordinary people of kentucky and you're a washington guy and everybody hates washington. very smart. >> you know who she reminds me of? >> who's that? >> you. >> that's a good compliment, because she's really good. >> let me go to david. i've studied a little of military history and i love the way it conforms to political history and the strongest thing you can do in politics is a phrase, attack from a defensive position. after somebody else has hit you, hit back at that very moment. i will not use my opponent's

youth, great tactic, the enemy attacks you, kill them. the stupid mistake that mitch has made here, i call him mitch, senator mcconnell, i don't know him that well, he's attacked her personally. she is now in a position of responding to that personal attack for the next six months. once he called her an empty dress, he's screwed. it's a weird way of saying something you shouldn't even be talking about. >> referred to her as a toddler. basically taking a little girl approach, and, you know, the thing about mitch mcconnell is, he looks like a washington insider, but he is ruthless. and he -- >> hauling his wife out like this. he never campaigned with her. >> he and his dogs will throw everything they can at her, so she's going to have to come out strong as she has and keep up that strength, fend off those attacks, go on the attack, and show she can go up against his

machine and operation. it was a good showing last night, you know, democrats should be hopeful, but this is going to be nasty and she's going to have to be punching. >> i'm going to go back to joy on this, i need a woman's voice on this for a second. >> i can't do that. >> i know. let me go after this question, it's a hard one. barack obama had hard moments in his campaign, it's not all perfect, in fact, a couple moments that were embarrassing, when he said hillary was likable enough. nobody needs to see bad behavior between men and women. this guy's very nasty attack on her, this thing about her, ever since she could talk, referenced her as a little kid, this thing about her being hollywood's kid and a puppet, sort of a nina hill, what they did to her, she's got a bunch of guys telling her what to do, what's that expose him to? i think disliked by his own republican party. i think it puts him out there into the cad category. >> yeah, remember rick lazio? people barely do because he got beaten so badly by hillary

clinton because he tried to intimidate her physically in a debate. >> when he delivered the divorce papers across the street there? walk out with some kind of papers. >> right, demanding she sign some pledge or something and remember how careful joe biden was when he was even debating sarah palin, who wasn't taken that seriously as a great intellect by democrats, but there are ways that you run against a woman that are smart and then you do things like saying you're likable enough. she has actually turned that around on mitch mcconnell, shown she's tough and not going to take those kind of slights and suburban women, that's going to resinate to them. she doesn't seem young and inexperienced, she seems like the tough guy in the race and he seems petty and small. >> i think we're going to find here a brand of feminism, a brand of feminism which could be really cheered by men. we'll see. these are all new terms to most of us, new terrain to most of us. >> i like the way she said i'm a strong kentucky woman.

people are thinking about their moms, their grandmas, their sisters. women who they think of as strong. she's moving that out of the feminism that's attached to northern elitism and hollywood. >> can i say something? go back and see cat blue with jane fonda. evil, evil, everyone loved her. last night mitch mcconnell delivered an aggressive message. watch this direct personal attack on the democratic nominee for the united states senate in kentucky. >> my opponent is in this race because barack obama and harry reid want her to be in this race. there's a reason, my friends, a reason every hollywood liberal is sending her a check. a vote for my opponent is a vote for obamacare, and the president who sold it to us on a mountain of lies. barack obama's candidate's preach independence, but they practice loyalty above all else,

and tonight i'm confident of this, kentuckians are not going to be deceived. alison lundergan grimes is barack obama's candidate. >> and here comes the attack from a defensive position. a few moments later, grimes herself didn't duck that attack, went right after it head on, hitting back from her defensive position. brilliantly executed. here it comes. let's watch. >> mitch mcconnell would have you believe that president obama is on kentucky's 2014 election ballot. president obama is not on kentucky's 2014 election ballot. nothing about this election will change who is in the white house, but we can change who is in washington, d.c. and finally put someone for the commonwealth of kentucky. senator mcconnell, this race is between you and me, that's the name that appears on the ballot.

>> this is john wayne stuff. you and me, by the way, i thought -- joy, get in on this after david, that eye contact to the camera, it was like, boy, this was thought through. she's looking at the camera saying she's looking at him watching her, she figures he's probably watching her victory speech and she's talking to him through the camera. this is like a street fight. i'm going to meet you tomorrow at noon, you know? >> the interesting thing here is mitch mcconnell's remarks were as if he was running against ashley judd. >> hollywood. >> hollywood outsider, all this stuff. alison lundergan grimes comes from a storied political kentucky family. she's also secretary of state, so she's not an outsider, she's not a usurper para chuting into kentucky. >> who's he talking to? older republicans willing to believe, joy, that this woman can't possibly be on her own two feet, just like anita hill, got to have people behind her, men behind her, that have moved her

into this slot as a puppet. that's what they have to believe, like they talk about abortion rights, the same way, if she can't make a decision, she's not old enough, she's not smart enough. she's a woman. your thoughts. >> and she's a self made kentucky politician. this is somebody, as you said, who's gotten herself elected to statewide office. if she's tied to any president, it is bill clinton. that is the person who was really more for her, if you want to say, than he would have been for, you know, the celebrity for ashley judd. >> is he going to double down, is bill clinton going to double down on this race? >> of course. they can have him come in and campaign, but she doesn't need him. i think she's shown herself somebody on her own is a tougher politician than anyone gave her credit for. she's absolutely personalizing and making this. she's doing it smart. if she loses, it's going to be kentucky democrat, not because what she's doing wrong now. >> that's one of my phrases, tissue rejection. it's not going to happen here.

look, quickly, i think she could blow the trumpet, as i said tonight opening the show, i think there are senate candidates incumbents, like pryor, begich, landrieu, and, of course, andrew cuomo and perhaps charlie crist. there could be a sweeping democratic victory in these races i'm talking about, if you get out there and fight and let them attack you and fire back like she just did, that is the m.o. for victory. let them belittle you, then overpower them, stick them at their own game. thank you, david corn. i love the guests tonight, joy reid. good luck with your afternoon show. we're always there. coming up, chris christie's problem just keeps growing. new testimony provided what many have suspected, a direct link now, a missing link between his government and his campaign operations. the whole idea of checking out who's with him and putting in the punishment. plus, for the first time, president obama speaks out about

the va scandal and this is no phoney irs or benghazi nonsense, this is a big deal. the president is going to have to get on top of it. we'll see. so far, no one is fired, that could be the problem. also, the primary day story you might have missed, how did biker candidate and "hardball" guest do yesterday? you can probably guess, but i'll tell you. finally, a scheme by house republicans to give school lunches for this summer living in the country. get that, living in the country, rural areas, but dropping lunches for kids in the city, you know, urban kids, got it? really fair, huh? we're going to catch them on this one. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

congressman cummings is the committee's ranking democrat. cummings has championed that role with darrell issa on that oversight committee that isn't

worth much. also joining the select committee, washington congressman adam smith, adam schiff, linda sanchez of california and congresswoman tammy duckworth of illinois. we'll be back after this.

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welcome back to "hardball." more bomb shell testimony in trenton. yesterday, one of christie's top campaign staffers whose job it was to secure endorsements on christie's campaign for re-election provided us with another link between the chain of christie's campaign and the office of the governor. he said he received a call around 7:00 p.m., 7:00 p.m., on august 12th from christie's deputy chief of staff bridget kelly. she wanted information about fort lee mayor mark sokolich. here's mowers testimony. >> she called to check in, if i recall correctly, and some of this is going to be paraphrasing

from recollection, she said, is mayor sokolich endorsing? i said, no, you know, he's not. he's definitely not endorsing, right, not going to happen. i said, no, not going to happen. from everything i know, it's door shut, not going to happen. she said, okay, that's all i need to know. >> bridget kelly discovers from him, learns officially at 7:00 p.m. one night the door's shut on any endorsement for governor christie by the mayor of fort lee. well, the next morning she comes into the office at 7:35 a.m., beginning of business, kelly sends the infamous e-mail to david wildstein at the port authority telling him, "time for some traffic problems in fort lee." wildstein replies, "got it." testimony connecting christie's campaign in the form of mowers to the governor's office, that's, of course, bridget kelly. we have a clear conversation about an endorsement and what looks to be the order for

political payback. does it get any clearer? we'll see. we have experts here, steve kornacki host of "up" and one of the lead prosecutors, not the ongoing watergate prosecution force, but when it was happening. steve, you've been right on top of this story, the best in the business. to me watching this thing from a bit more business, a little pulled out on the zoom there, i say wait a minute, this is now under oath. we hear a guy as he goes to bed at night, bridget kelly says is this a dead relationship with the mayor of fort lee, sokolich, okay, and he says, in fact, it really is dead, door closed. next thing she comes into the work, first thing she does, apparently, says screw this guy, shut down the bridge. we're going to punish the guy. it looked to me, to a jury, i would think, like i get it. i get this thing. >> well, yeah, what mowers was saying, too, at any point in the testimony yesterday was, look, one of his jobs was to get an endorsement of sokolich and he was saying basically when he was

personally disappointed when he didn't get the endorsement, but is a mayor of the town of about 35,000 people, in the grand scheme of things, this didn't register with the top people around chris christie. the implication being that bridget kelly was essentially kind of freelancing. that's the implication of the master report, the so-called internal commission and what it leads to to me, if you want to give them the benefit of the doubt on that, this is something bridget kelly and david wildstein came up with, it does leave wide open the question to me, hey, if these closures took place september 13th, second week of september, 2013, and christie's contention it's not until january 8th when kelly's e-mail went out he had any clue about what was going on here, yet in the testimony we've had last week from michael drewniak, his spokesman, renna, you've had so many clues that were right in front of chris christie and the people closest to him in

october, in november, in december, and it really, you know, again, there's no smoking gun that i've seen, but it really raises the possibility to me that chris christie -- >> let me tell you what i see, i didn't come here for the north pole hanging out with santa claus and the elves. what i see is a governor who sends his lieutenant governor down to hoboken and threatens a very credible mayor there, zimmer. you don't go along with this water front development, no money. there's a pattern there of enforcement. is this guy ignorant of all that, knows he went into the one town and fired all the prosecutors because he didn't like them going after his buddies? there is a pattern of enforcement. mowers should be aware there's other cities and towns in new jersey that have had this behavior thrown at them. maybe the legislators in new jersey don't know how to followup on investigation, but they ought to look at the pattern here. christie cannot keep stepping back.

nixon couldn't walk away when this whole pattern was i wanted. my thought to you is, you're the context guy. can't you see the context of the way this guy behaves there? >> i think what i'm trying to say, in terms of finding the smoking gun where you say chris christie definitely knew this was going on on a certain date, definitely was involved in the planning, that hasn't come out right now, so it puts in this different realm, i think what you're saying -- >> that may be, unless they are going for a racketeering charge, that's what i'm looking at here. >> quickly, i would say the key thing to keep in mind here when i've talked about this from the beginning is the possibility of willful ignorance, and the key is, until january 8th, everybody in new jersey politics, everybody in trenton believed this was going away on january 15th, because the legislative committee that was looking into this was going to lose its subpoena power and chris christie had an ally coming in who was supposed to kill that committee and it wasn't until january 8th when that blockbuster bridget kelly e-mail

went out that everything changed. there was an incentive for chris christie and people around him to be willfully ignorant about this. >> you've seen what we've seen, it's in the press accounts and testimony yesterday. looks like this cause and effect occurred 7:00 one night, this mayor's not playing ball, 7:30 the next morning, screw the guy. >> to be frank, chris, i've never bought into the idea that the motive behind the bridge closure was punishing a democratic mayor in fort lee, new jersey, for not endorsing a republican candidate for governor. now, if you look at the e-mail traffic, it says time for some traffic problems in fort lee, so that indicates to me that there was a preplan. they had discussed this before, wildstein and kelly, and then, of course, wildstein responds, got it.

so quite clearly they know what each other are talking about in this shorthand exchange. would kelly have checked to see that sokolich had not endorsed christie just the night before launching this? it sounds more to me like the motive would be to demonstrate muscle, some kind of demonstration of what we can do to screw up somebody's plans if we want to in fort lee, and so if there was something going on like a development project or something else in which the folks on the ground were not playing ball with the administration, it would make a lot more sense if this e-mail was simply to check the box that mayor sokolich was not going to be embarrassed because he was on the verge of -- >> that's consistent, but what it does say she was checking --

if they are trying to screw him over a month they planned to shut this bridge down. we're going to shut that bridge down for a month and very well may be to shut down selling the local area development project, because if you're not going to have bridge access at the right speed in the morning, you're not going to make any money. the call from mowers was not going to say screw him for what he didn't say, we're going to screw him no matter what because he's not going to play ball with us. >> we don't want to embarrass ourselves if he's about to play ball with us that we're going to screw up the whole traffic pattern for getting over the bridge. >> hardly exculpatory information you're giving me. >> sorry. >> you're making a point it's a much more deliberate effort, which was to shut down that bridge for a month because this guy wasn't playing ball on a money project. >> if we're looking for a motive, you know, just doesn't

resinate to punish for not endorsing -- >> complicated situation. >> i just want to put this out there, because i feel a little responsibility on this one because i think our show was the first one that really explored this idea of the development project, basically the largest real estate project in new jersey taking place at the foot of this bridge, very significant project. we explored it on our show because this is something in the communications that were taking place at the time that mayor sokolich raised as a concern, what is going to happen to my billion dollar redevelopment plan, but we have looked and been looking and continue to look very closely to see if there's any kind of a link here, but my best reporting, i have not been able to establish any kind of a link or motive that would fit that would include this development project with some kind of an agenda that wildstein or kelly have. i want to make that clear. >> i want to find out from bridget, why did you get the last bit of business you went to bed with was this guy's not playing ball and the first item of business is screwing this guy.

>> folks may get immunized. >> thank you. such a lawyer. steve kornacki, thank you both. up next, how did harley brown, remember him, he named himself harley, self described biker, how'd he do last night in the republican governor's primary in idaho? side show is coming next and he belongs there, of course. this is "hardball," the place for politics. nineteen years ago, "wow, how is there no way to tell the good from the bad?"ny so we gave people the power of the review.

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given the months you just had, i can doubt very much whether she actually will run for president in 2016. >> folks, i believe priebus. why would hillary run? in the past few months, she's faced new benghazi allegations, the return of monica lewinsky, karl rove speculating on her brain damage, and rumors that

the only way she got to the white house in the first place was by sleeping with the president. >> time now for the side show. it's already begun. that was steve colbert last night on the prospect of hillary clinton's candidacy in 2016, but if hillary clinton is really, really reconsidering a presidential campaign, she can rest easy, because david letterman has already come up with a campaign strategy to counter these republican attacks. >> karl rove, big puffy karl rove, says that she has brain damage and so now here hillary has released this announcement dealing with the concern over the health of her brain. i think this is a good idea. >> hillary clinton assures americans that her brain is perfectly healthy. to alleviate any doubts, next week while cornell medical surgeons will temporarily remove her brain to allow registered voters to view, poke, and inspect the organ. hillary clinton, clin-sanity.

>> clinton, by the way, received an endorsement, by the way, from the '70s band heart who made headlines in 2008 when they asked sarah palin to stop using their song "barracuda" on the campaign trail. when asked if they'd lend the same song to hillary clinton, however, they changed their tune, saying they'd love to give her their song. up next, here it is, idaho's biker candidate for governor, harley brown, fell short in the republican primary yesterday. brown had famously described the race as a choice between a cowboy, biker, or normal guy. in this case, the cowboy was butch otter, who narrowly prevailed against his normal guy challenger, while harley brown came in a distant third with just 3% of the vote, but 3% of the vote must be crazy people. he's certainly got the most national media attention, which is not such a bad consolation prize. think about it, 3% of idaho republicans think he should be their governor.

finally, a governor in arkansas just got hoisted. asa hutchinson, supporter of the state voter i.d. law, but when it came time for him to vote on monday, he realized he'd forgotten his i.d. at home and had to send a staffer to go fetch it. well, a spokesperson played down the incident describing it as, "a little bit of an inconvenience." well, it's no problem at all if you've got yourself a gopher. up next, president obama speaks out finally about the scandal at the veterans administration. how big's this thing going to get? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics.

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protesters demanding higher pay for mcdonald's workers demonstrated in oakbrook, illinois. the chain holds its annual share holder meeting tomorrow. now we take you back to "hardball." so when i hear allegations of misconduct, any misconduct, whether it's allegations of va staff -- i will not stand for it. not as commander in chief, but also not as an american. none of us should. so, if these allegations prove to be true, it is dishonorable, it is disgraceful, and i will not tolerate it, period. >> welcome back to "hardball." president obama today, as you saw, addressed a growing scandal that unlike the phoney, if you will, scandals like fast and

furious and benghazi, has the potential, the real potential, to cause some real political damage. those problems at the veterans administration. it's a story that goes to the heart of competence of a huge government bureaucracy charged that veterans died while they waited to be treated. the press conference came today after the president met with va secretary eric shinseki. many assumed and hoped he'd accept shinseki's resignation today. the president says he is reserving judgment until the va inspector's general report is due, i think that's next week, and he expects preliminary results next week. shinseki, for his part, will make his third trip to capitol hill in less than a week when he meets with dick durbin to discuss the scandal, and that's tomorrow. joining me right now, former senator from nebraska and congressional medal of honor recipient and also eugene robinson, whose recent column is headlined this, "heads need to roll at the va." gene, you were great on this, this is a real one, not like the

other ones. >> this is not like the phoney ones. bad stuff happened, right? we talk about politics on this show. what's the political ramifications, well, this stuff happens in an administration. you find out something is wrong. what you have to do is fix it and you have to be seen fixing it, and i think the president needs to step up. i think heads do need to roll at the va. >> there's a wonderful british tradition, one thing i like about the brits, when you're a minister and your cabinet screws up, may not be technically your fault, but you're in charge, you walk. why not people in this administration, sebelius and people that have had problems that may not be technically their fault, but it's a massive screwup. isn't there any sense of honor anymore? we don't have that tradition anymore. >> we do not, and in this case, there's an urgency for general shinseki, who's an honorable man and served his country honorably, but he needs to step aside. the president's got a really first rate guy in rob neighbors,

who knows the va well, has confidence in the hill, and he's a good interim selection, because the brand of the va's been damaged and it didn't start in arizona. remember in washington, d.c., patients were being discharged -- >> your paper was breaking the story. >> the problem hasn't been fixed. the president campaigned against that. he campaigned against that. >> what is the problem of getting enough doctors to serve the needs of the va veterans? why is it so hard to deal with a case load, why is that so hard? are we putting the money into doctors? >> well, that's a very good question. first of all, i went to the va system and i got out of the service in 1969 and they saved my life. i've got a very high regard for the law and the american people's willingness -- >> did you send a shortage of doctors there? >> well, there was a lot of people. we were pushing a lot of people through. yeah, there were times we were waiting to get in the operating

room, but i didn't certainly see any shortage of committed physicians and surgeons who are willing to actually do the job, and the problem in the va, and again, this is not new. this isn't breaking news coming out of the arizona problem. the problem in the va is each of these hospitals tend to operate as separate systems. there's a terrible culture throughout the va, and this -- >> what's the incentive to lie, to say we're dealing with people a week after they call up for something, why would they put that kind of paper out there? >> the problem is, there's no disincentive when you do lie. that's a problem. >> bonuses, too. >> there's a bonus if you move patients in and out faster? >> i believe the higher-ups -- >> why don't they put in a request for more doctors and deal with what looks to be a real back load? >> we ought to by now know the answer to that question. >> we spent $110 billion on the d.o.d. my own view is how to combine the two and put one person in charge and real metrics of what they are trying to accomplish

and hit those objectives. what are the qualitative? the groups are doing it all the time, and these guys need to hold themselves accountable to those objectives and they can hit them. i don't think the problem is we're not spending enough money. i don't think the problem here is we genuinely short people willing to take care of veterans, especially the guys wounded in iraq and afghanistan. i don't think that's the problem. i think the problem is the place has just been poorly managed. >> what about the white house putting out word that one of these guys had been fired and he wasn't fired and putting out the word how everybody was happy and they weren't happy. why are they putting out this flakery? >> i don't understand it. look, five years into the administration, you can't say it's bush's fault, you can't say we didn't see coming the wave of veterans from iraq and afghanistan. you can't say we didn't see coming the aging of the vietnam

veteran population and their increasing needs. we knew all this was coming, and this is something that president obama -- >> let's give credit here a little bit here, mrs. obama and dr. jill biden have been out there, that's their big cause, they were always talking about the veterans' families and how they are looking out for them. i'm amazed this didn't seep out somehow, these stories. >> put one of them in charge of the va. there's been complaints coming out of the health care side for the last five years. again, this didn't start with arizona. there have been people bailing out of va health as a consequence of poor leadership. >> why does it seem so immune to this knowledge? >> i don't have the answer to that question. all i know is, in my view, he's failed to manage the agency to do what the president said he wanted to do when he campaigned in 2008. >> i think general shinseki and his supporters would argue he's done a lot, he's done x, y, z, waiting times were down,

although it turns out maybe that was falsified. maybe they weren't down, we now need to see, but let's give him credit for whatever he has accomplished, but let's recognize he doesn't seem to be able to go that last mile and to really get to the root of the problems in the va. >> you know what this is going to do politically, the people on the right, these political partisans on the republican side, are going to stack them up like tuna fish cans. they'll say, look what happened at the va, look what happened to fast and furious, look what happened in benghazi and look what happened at whatever else they are after. irs, and the top will be va. they'll say, look at this stack of problems and give credibility to the whole stack. that's the problem. >> first of all, american people care deeply about their veterans and want to make sure it's an error-free environment. i'm prepared to argue with republicans when they are wrong, when they are identifying a problem that doesn't exist for political reasons, but this happened to be a problem where i agree with them. this is a problem, and it's solvable.

>> thank you for your service. >> you're welcome. >> irishman, too. bob kerrey, eugene robinson. up next, how the national rifle association twisted the real meaning of the second amendment. wait until you hear this, it's pretty good book. this is "hardball," place for politics. the name your price to! you tell them how much you want to pay, and they help you find a policy that fits your budget. i told you to wear something comfortable! this is a polyester blend! whoa! uh...little help? i got you! unh! it's so beautiful! man: should we call security? no, this is just getting good. the name your price tool, still only from progressive.

well, here's something you don't see every day, president obama walked back to the white house from the department of the interior, and on the way he stopped to chat with some very

surprised tourists. there he is, take a listen. >> didn't expect this. >> no. >> it's for your birthday? happy birthday. >> thank you, sir. >> where are you from? >> israel. >> happy birthday. tell everybody back home i said hi. tel aviv, jerusalem? >> thank you, sir. >> the short walk for the president, the interior department is just around the corner from the white house. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." well, the second amendment has been the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, i repeat the word fraud, on the

american public. those are not my words. it's a direct quote from former chief justice of the united states supreme court in 1991, mr. warren burger. a conservative republican appointed to the court by none other than richard nixon. well, justice berger was venting his frustration about the widespread view of the public that the second amendment guaranteed an individual's right to bear arms. in fact, many are shocked to learn that the u.s. supreme court didn't rule until 2008, six years ago, that an individual has a right to own a gun. it was the powerful national rifle association whose political organizing changed the way americans think about the issue. but in his new book, "the second amendment: a biography," michael waldman writes, molding public opinion is the most important factor. if you want to win in the court of law, first win in the court of public opinion. inspired by how the nra's mission to affect public opinion achieved favorable outcomes from their point of view in the courts. now it's the progressis who have set their sights on big legal victories through similar

methods aimed to shape the public view on issues like gay marriage, campaign finance, voting rights. michael waldman is president of nyu's brennan center for justice and he was chief speechwriter for president bill clinton, who gave some pretty good speeches. let's talk about this. we talk about gun rights here a lot. and my experience and my family in dealing with it, people are asking for stuff now that i can't believe. there are now organizations that say that will not hold conventions in a hotel unless you're allowed to walk around with your gun exposed, open carry. it has reached the point where people want to go into big cities and drink in bars at midnight, carrying guns in the bars like the wild west. even in the wild west, they said, no guns. they said, leave your guns at the city limits. what happened? >> throughout the whole country's history, you're right, you've had gun rights, but it's always been along with gun laws. there's a picture of dodge city, the archetypal western town, looks like it's in a movie, a dusty main street with the saloon doors swinging from 1888

and there's a sign in the middle of the street that says, "welcome to dodge city, firearms prohibited. leave them at the city limits." where was judge scalia there? >> you know, you're right, chris. the supreme court never said that there was an individual right in the second amendment to a gun, until 2008. and just scalia wrote that opinion and he said this was triumph of his judicial philosophy of originalism. we're going to go back and see what the founding fathers really meant. but i went back and looked at the way the founding fathers wrote the second amendment. the reason they wrote it, and it was something very different from what we might imagine. they were trying to protect the well-regulated militia. now, what the militia was, was -- >> let's have a reminder, the second amendment is one sentence. here it is. this is what's in the constitution. "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a

free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." there you have it. >> it's a little confusing, there's a lot of commas, but what was the militia? they really revered their militia. the militia was the state military force of the 13 states. and every single man, eventually every white man, was required to be in the militia for their entire adult life. and they were required, by law, to own a gun and keep it at home. and they were really worried that this new, powerful central government would crush the militias. and that fear actually created the second amendment. and so, when we ask nowadays, well, what does it -- does it protect the militias or protect the individual right? it protected both and neither. i mean, the question we ask the founders wouldn't even understand it. >> so it was a state's right operation. the states needed militias to protect themselves from the federal government? >> that's right. they were really worried that if there was something like a u.s. army, it would be like king george, it would lead to tyranny. and they thought having these militias, citizen soldiers, with

their guns from home, would have -- >> what about wayne lapierre, who come on these kinds of shows, how can they ignore that whole language about the militia being necessary to the state? how can they ignore it? >> chris, if you go to the nra headquarters in virginia and walk into the lobby, they have on the wall, in big letters, what they say is the text of the second amendment. they just edited out the part with the militias. they have two little dots to replace it. and what happened was, over many years, the supreme court had ruled several times -- >> okay, you made a point public opinion is moot. you may not agree with them, but john roberts is a reasonable conservative. why would he go along with this? >> it's kind of a classic story. we've always had the case be in america that moving the public opinion, political fights, political -- >> are they responding to the hard right? people like chief justice roberts? are they buckling to right wing opinion?

>> well, it's not only right wing opinion, it's become mainstream opinion, and it's also become the opinion of the politicians who appointed these judges. the five judges who ruled in that case were all appointed by judges who were members of the nra. >> i would like to know when i walk through the streets of a big city, for example, i like to know no one's carrying a gun and i wish there was a law to prevent. that the name of the book is "a second amendment: a biography." thank you, michael waldman. when we come back, let me finish with the republican plan to feed rural children -- you won't believe this. this is such a cartoon, but not the kids who live in the cities. who would they be? rural kids get lunches, but not the kids in the city. this is pretty, what, separate but unequal? this is "hardball," the place for politics. heat ns r g wohaou

?? that corporate trial by fire when every slacker gets his due. and yet, there's someone around the office who hasn't had a performance review in a while. someone whose poor performance

is slowing down the entire organization. i'm looking at you phone company dsl. check your speed. see how fast your internet can be. switch now and add voice and tv for $34.90. comcast business built for business. let me finish tonight with this nasty little bit of news that some house republicans want to deny school lunches to kids living in the city. while making them available only to poor kids living in rural america. for years, the government has offered lunches to poor kids during the summer. the idea was to keep them nourished in the months they are not at school. for years, the summer lunch program was for kids in rural and in urban areas both. well, this year the republicans of the house appropriations committee have put forward a plan to provide those lunches only to rural areas, skipping the city kids altogether. what do you think? do you think this sounds like another case of separate and

unequal? not a smart move, i'd say. if there's a reason for giving to the country boys and girls but not to the city boys and girls, it would be useful for all of us to hear it. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight, we continue our special series, "all in america," on the road in the conservative heartland with a special look at just what happens when a state refuses to expand medicaid for political reasons. but first, today, amidst a growing chorus of outrage on capitol hill, president obama came forward to address the firestorm erupting around allegations of mismanagement, long wait times, and cooked books at v.a. hospitals. >> so when i hear allegations of misconduct, any misconduct, whether it's allegations of v.a. staff covering up long wait times oo