weigh in on this topic and more. we want to hear what you think. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. don't you love politics? let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start tonight with last night's tar and feathering of eric cantor. here's a guy who was playing the game brilliantly, heading to the top, cruising to success, riding the right wing wave, a surfer in a three-piece suit. he should have remembered what jack kennedy said about those who ride the tiger, they end up in his mouth. and that's exactly where eric cantor, the lame duck leader, now resides, in the belly of the beast. the well-basted main course at the tea party. what's it all about? what's this mean to politicians

generally, is it good news for anyone left, right, or center, cantor's defeat? except those like nancy pelosi who don't mind seeing their partisan rival take a loss, does anyone think this isn't going to show itself this november when this rolling thunder clap of anger against big shot republicans will hit democrats broadside? well, tonight we look at what it means to progressives, to hard-right conservatives, and, of course, to the 2016 presidential election. how's jeb taking the news from virginia? how's chris christie? how's rubio? does anyone think this vote against government debt and failed immigration policy is good news for this crowd? do they? let's find out what happened and what more importantly, how the politicians feel about it, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and how they are going to take it. chuck todd's an expert, msnbc political director and white house correspondent, as well as the host of "the daily rundown" here on msnbc, of course. and howard fineman, director of all politics and all coverage

thereof at "the huffington post." former congressman vin weber called this an earthquake. cantor's stunning defeat seems to catch the entire political world by shock last night when he lost that primary, including cantor himself. his own internal polling had him winning by 34 points in that primary. instead he lost to economics professor david brat by 11 points. according to "the washington post," cantor felt so confident of victory in that primary he spent the morning at starbuck's holding a fundraising meeting with lobbyists, but results came in quickly last night and today in a press conference, cantor said he will step down as majority leader the end of july, this next month, and including a note of compromise in washington. >> i think that this town should be about trying to strike common ground. i've always said, it's better if we can agree to disagree, but find an areas which we can produce results. and i've said this before, and i've talked about my wife and i

almost by now married 25 years, and believe me, we don't agree on everything, and we have managed to raise our family, have a wonderful marriage. she's stood by me throughout this public office stuff, and been a strong advocate for me, and not always believing in everything that i believe in, but we've managed to raise our family and do well. i don't think that's too unlike life, i don't think it's too unlike the legislative arena, and i think more of that could probably be helpful. >> you know, chuck todd and howard fineman being political experts, isn't it wonderful why the country has to watch a guy convert himself from congressman to lobbyist in the matter of five minutes? this is what they hate about washington, what they see here happening, built a lot of relationships with lobbyists, when you leave office, voters kick you out, move right into powerful positions. anyways, let's get to the noise level. >> no one is going to be shocked. >> anyway, here's my question, the noise you hear today from the political world, i hear a lot of noise.

>> look, it's nervousness, it's the immigration panic with republicans, basically realizing they can't deal with it now, it's going to be sitting there in 2016, and this demographic time bomb that, frankly, went off in 2012, right, it went off and that's among the reasons why romney had no shot at obama. >> but they do not like illegal immigration. they don't like it, period. they don't want to help the people that are here and don't want more of them. >> it's clear to me that the republican party hasn't figured out how to deal with this populous base inside their party, the populous wing, yes, it's immigration, but also antiwall street. he kept saying things, he's the chambers candidate, he'd throw that out. it's the same anger. very much so. >> accused cantor, the guy he beat, first leadership of any party, any house, i've heard of losing a primary. anyway, here's the guy who beat

him said he supported amnesty. you interviewed brat today. you asked if he thought his election was about immigration. he skirted it a little bit. here he is. >> immigration is a part of that aspect, but it's -- i ran on the fiscal issues and the republican creed, which starts off with the main thing i'm interested in, and that's a commitment to free markets. amnesty, at the end with a clear differentiator between myself and eric cantor, and so it fits into the whole narrative and it also fits into the narrative that eric just has not been present in the district, and he was out of touch in supporting, you know, the chamber agenda on that one instead of -- i was door knocking, i know what's on the mind of the folks. >> howard, first of all, i believe in the voter and believe the voters vote voluntarily, only ones that voted were the ones that wanted to vote. you have to count it seriously, these votes count. they represent personal passion on the part of people.

not group passion, personal passion. people out there who voted last night in virginia are really ticked off, it seems to me, government spent, government spending, government overregulation, and especially they think they are selling out the country with this illegal immigration thing, they think people like cantor are too damn soft. my question to you, howard, why did he skirt the immigration thing, is he embarrassed, did he play politics, didn't play fiscal politics, why did he sort of skirt chuck's question, and he clearly did. >> well, because i actually think, chris, that even though immigration is important, and i think in this particular election it was important, the larger sense i get of this, and the big takeaway from this, is the absolutely vicious antagonism that voters in the country, all across the country, in both parties have towards washington, and it's the kind of -- it's become the kind of

city where when television, when netflix puts on a -- an utter attack on washington in the form of the show "house of cards," people in washington are so out of touch that they think it's cool. they think it's funny. >> that's a great point, i completely agree. >> they think it's funny. >> it's a shot at us. >> the city is completely out to lunch, and almost literally out to lunch, or the steakhouse, in the case of eric cantor. >> tell me why you said steakhouse, that's a great number. >> it's because according to spending reports, i think he spent at least $120,000, $130,000 at events at steakhouse, which is more than dave brat spent on his media budget. >> the point is at the steakhouse, give me the picture for the voters, lobby is crowding around you, guys eating big steaks with bibs on, unless it's lobster night.

>> they are sawing the big steak and deciding to block the bill that a lot of its proponents think will help real people in the real america who can't afford a 25-ounce, you know, slab of meat at bruce's steakhouse. they can't. >> they are working at a higher priced place like charlie palmer's or something. i remember years ago one of these things, i remember a congressman sitting there, 15 lobbyists around him serenading him with how great he is. that's called a dinner. >> goes back to marty caplan, the guy wrote the best betrayal, distinguished gentleman with eddie murphy and the more i watch that movie, the more and more correct it is. but this does go, this anger that's out there, this anti-washington thing. look, i took a bunch of people in capitol hill today, tea party conservatives, liberal democrats, and all of them are actually reacting the way they

should be reacting in this election, is there an anti-incumbent wave coming? that's what they are nervous about. >> hillary clinton is out in the news right now, i don't particularly go with her view in this, but i think she was smart to address it directly, pretty much. hillary clinton, on her book tour, sounded a candidate's response to the virginia upset. here, fair enough, here's her response to what happened last night in virginia, where for the first time any of us can remember a leader of congress was defeated in a primary. >> as i read the political coverage, and we just saw this race in virginia, where eric cantor, the second-ranking republican in the house, was defeated by a candidate, who basically ran against immigrants, and his argument is this, there are americans out of work, so why should we allow immigrants into our country to take those jobs? and i think that's a fair question, but the answer is not to throw out of work and deport

the 11 million immigrants who are contributing already to our economy. the answer is to grow our economy to create more jobs. >> that was a very astute answer, didn't answer the whole question of illegal immigration, guys, but did deal with the hatred of people who have been here for 20 years, which is stupid, the idea to deport people who have become americans, maybe this is my particular ax to grind, didn't fix the immigration problem. go ahead, howard. >> i was going to say, that this is going to be an election where people are going to lose, who you never expected to lose, and it's going to happen in both parties. it's shaping up to me as that kind of election because of the sort of free floating anger that's out there and it's going to affect both parties. it may help somebody like alison lundergan grimes pull off a huge upset in kentucky for the democrats. on the other hand, these democratic incumbents running in states for re-election to

senate, they think they are in firm ground, i don't know if they are going to survive. i just think it's going to be that kind and we're going to be surprised. you think we were surprised last night, wait till you see what happens in november when chuck todd's up there with a telestraiter. it's going to be amazing. >> does feel more like '92, remember, perot anger hit everybody, guy like vander jack, but then you also had fowler lose, who seemed to be safe. '78, those midterms, which didn't change the status quo of who's in power, but it shook things up and changed the republican party race in 1980. it could be something like that. >> here's what i'm asking about, because i love to get to the roots of things and i trust the voters, we have to, we believe in democracy. >> voters figured out what's wrong, washington's messed up. they may not have the solution. >> those struggling along in the middle class salary, making $40,000, two kids, you're struggling, you still read the newspaper, you see government

deficits, government debt, congress can't control spending, read about illegal immigration, it bothers you, you say, can these guys get anything right? i can't control things because i don't have any power, but i do have the power to vote and i'm going to vote against that, because that's reverberating with me, what's going on with this country is the politicians' fault. >> i do think there is also a strand of folks who may not vote, who may -- because, we have voted change six straight elections, right, '06, '08, '10, we've been voting a lot of change, three of the last four cycles, there's been a change and nothing happened. so you could have a slice of voters who say we've tried this, i'm done. >> i think we've heard an offshore warning and i think a tsunami could be coming. anyway, thank you chuck todd, i don't know, but i think it could be coming. howard fineman, excellent reporting and analysis. coming up, the tea party defeat of eric cantor last night is his biggest win yet, didn't just give him a scare, they blew

him out by more than ten points. today, that's energizing the red hots on the right in races all across the country, people are hoping to do the same thing. plus, what should establishment republicans take away from cantor's defeat last night? what's jeb thinking? how about this, when it comes to the republican nomination for president in 2016, moderates and soft liners on illegal immigration need not apply. are you paying attention, jeb bush? and later, hillary clinton's book rollout, the start of something big, but how's the tryout going? our nbc colleague cynthia mcfadden interviewed the former secretary of state and joins us right here tonight. finally, let me finish with what this new tea party hero said about the minimum wage this morning. he's all wrong. he didn't tell it right to chuck todd, and this is "hardball," the place for politics. you probably know xerox as the company that's all about printing. but did you know we also support hospitals using electronic health records

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. another reason eric cantor's defeat last night was such a stunner is the amount of money he spent compared to that of his opponent. look at these number differences, cantor's campaign outspent david brat's by more than 40, that's 40-1. $5 million for cantor versus $123,000 of brat. cantor, cantor media, cantor campaign ran more than 1,000 tv ads, almost all of them anti-brat attack ads. while brat ran just 65, so he put out the bad word on his opponent and still didn't work. strategist told "the washington post" the cantor campaign hoped to bury brat with the attack ads, but they backfired and made brat seem sympathetic. and we'll be right back. there's a saying around here, you stand behind what you say. around here you don't make excuses. you make commitments. and when you can't live up to them, you own up, and make it right.

some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where it's needed most. but i know you'll still find it when you know where to look.

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have put in a lot of sweat and a lot of shoe leather to make this happen. it's not about dave brat winning tonight, it's about returning the country to constitutional principles. [ cheers and applause ] if i go to d.c., every vote i take will move the pendulum in the direction of the people, away from washington, d.c., back to the states, back to the localities, and back to you. >> we're back. that was david brat after his unexpected ten-point victory over house majority leader eric cantor in virginia's district last night. the stunning upset comes a year after many thought the tea party was losing strength in the country. and while national tea party groups largely stayed out of the race, it's now clear that the power of their ideas at the grassroots level have not diminished at all. well, the race in virginia's 7th district was fought over issues like immigration and spending at the government level and it turned on the kind of

anti-incumbent sentiment we saw in 2010, allowing a relatively unknown college professor to take down the second most powerful republican in the country. not only does brat's victory confirm that the tea party's more relevant, it's also a wake-up call for republicans and government right now, who appear to be increasingly at odds with their own conservative base. joining me right now, republican strike that strategist john brabender and president of freedom works. i'm going to start with you because you've become our poster boy for the tea party. what i thought was interesting, it was radio, laura ingraham, i'll call her my friend to get her in trouble, and people like mark levin, for some reason they circled around this guy and said we can beat cantor with this guy. what made them get so involved because right wing radio, conservative radio, is really powerful in this country. >> they've also been involved in a lot of races and i think that's the national trend. >> laura actually campaigned, i hear, for brat. >> yeah, she was very active, but i think the other parking

lot of that stopart of that sto enabling the candidates to do what they did last night and this is a paradigm shift that shifts power away from people -- >> what's changed to give power to the people at the grassroots level? >> social media, sources of information -- >> you mean bloggers? >> yeah, i know moms with facebook pages bigger than house gops right now. >> same on the left. >> interesting hillary clinton is out there as a candidate right now saying people have the right to be angry. >> i think she's going to join the tea party. that's where she's going with this. >> she doesn't want to fight the anger, she wants to deal with it. >> look, there are a lot of angry people. what's puzzling today, though, is, why did the anger erupt here when nobody saw it and it didn't erupt in kentucky and south carolina and all these other states and i think you're 100% right about the social network. i'm a media consultant, i do a

lot of tv. >> is it the perfect storm? >> i don't know. nobody predicted -- >> could it be that eric cantor created a district, had a big role in fixing the district the way he wanted it, he fixed a real right wing district and he's not a right winger. >> i think that's part of it. people went to the polls and said, look, i do not like the status quo, it's not even that personal, it's anti-washington and i'm going to do something about it, but people are going to spend too much time on trying to understand why it happened and not that it did happen. there are house members everywhere now that are going to double check every vote because they are worried about a primary as much as they are a general. >> a while ago, the former democratic leader, sort of like a cantor on the other side told me his polling showed him if you ask the people, do members of congress go home at night and steal the equipment from their offices, government equipment, to take home with them as theft, they said, yes, we believe they steal the equipment out of the offices and take it home with them. you laugh, but you think people think that, he thought they did.

the posters say that. >> no -- >> is that the mood of the country, these guys are a bunch of thieves, i don't care what you say, they are like guys in "house of cards"? >> if you're a busy person with jobs and families and look at the direction of the country, i think it's quite rational to look at the existing leadership and say, you know what, we need to shake things up, we need to try something different. i think that was the mood. >> what's wrong where eric cantor? >> what's wrong with eric cantor? i don't think he stole typewriters, i think the lack of leadership coming from the house republican side is he says he wants to get things done, but where were his ideas? our idea of fixing washington is not splitting the difference on harry reid's bad idea. if you want to do immigration, pass your own immigration plan. if you want to do balance the budget, you want to fix obamacare, where are your ideas? you go to the table to negotiate based on a different set of principles. >> you remember, these are republican primary voters, it's a different group. they are not people who are looking for compromise, they are

looking for people who have core convictions, they are going to stick to those core convictions, and they are going to fight for them every day. and i don't think eric cantor probably -- >> let's talk about this. you said primary voters, but your party, i guess you're republican, right? you're republican? you're going to pick a presidential nominee to take on hillary clinton, in all likelihood, all likelihood. same voters, oh, primary voters, are the one that's going to decide in iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, they are going to have the power, those three states. i see evidence here, there's a lot of anger and if i were rand paul or ted cruz, you know what, i have a better chance today than i thought i had yesterday. >> i'm going to quote your favorite guy, you remember ronald reagan in 1975 talked about the values of libertarianism as a basis of what the republican party should be, and '76 he's challenged a silting republican president and everybody said this was the end of the party. i don't think there's anything inconsistent with standing on principle and winning the electorate the way reagan did. you're seeing a lot of these guys, maybe scott walker, maybe it's rand paul, they are

reaching out to new constituencies and our ideas, i think, are compelling. >> do you think the economy and everything is in as bad of shape as it was in '80? i mean, let's face it, ronald reagan had a great opportunity, we had the hostage crisis, we had inflation, we had double-digit inflation, double-digit interest rates. those were really horrendous numbers and he was able to exploit them. >> yeah -- >> you don't have that today. you have a stock market through the roof, hardly any inflation, unemployment is down, not great, but not like '80. >> people don't feel the opportunity. >> sometimes it takes -- wasn't it rahm emanuel, don't waste, always exploit another crisis. i'm not sure we're in a crisis. >> there's five buckets in a republican primary presidential race, establishment, social conservative, tea party reformer, libertarian, and who could beat the other person, who can beat the democrat. the two smallest buckets are establishment and two can beat the other person. people aren't going to say, i really want this person --

>> you're telling me jeb shouldn't run, christie better not try, you're telling me that rubio, because of his position on immigration, better not try. >> let's go back in history -- >> is that what you're telling me? >> my client was rick santorum last night. mitt romney had the establishment, we all know that, but he had very little from all the other buckets and frankly, i would argue if newt gingrich would have got out of the race, romney would have had trouble getting the nomination because tea party, reformers -- >> tell me moving forward. >> what i think it is is republicans are looking as their presidential nominee, somebody who doesn't just check the box, but has strong core principles. >> it's not going to be a moderate centrist? >> no. >> it's not going to be jeb -- mitt romney is not running again, is he? i don't think he wants to, he's not going to do it. >> i would say it's harder for jeb. chris christie goes across, chris christie does see as a reformer so he does have some things he could say he did in new jersey. >> cleaned up new jersey? >> as much as anybody can. but i think it's harder for jeb bush, to be perfectly honest.

>> that's a hell of a slogan, chris christie, he cleaned up new jersey. i'm sorry, sometimes i have to laugh at you guys, but that's all right. that's an opinion you have. john brabender, who's pushing christie as the reform candidate and matt kibbe, who's always clean. much more on cantor's defeat. we're going to have them on, people on like joe scarborough, lucky to get him today and michael steele. up next, remember the republican in arizona who changed his name to cesar chavez to win hispanic votes? now the family of the real cesar chavez is striking back. this is "hardball," the place for politics. she keeps you on your toes.

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good to know. welcome back to "hardball." time now for the side show. well, during testimony this week, philip nataski said the department scheduling system has not been updated since april of 1985. he says this outdated computer system is playing a factor in the long delays for medical treatment of veterans that they are experiencing. 1985. well, jon stewart of "the daily show" wanted to show how outdated the va's technology really is. watch this. >> your system can't process claims, but it can print an all-text picture of snoopy. 1985? are you kidding me? have you ever caught the movie "the net" on late-night cable and laughed out loud alone about

how outdated the technology seems? ♪ >> this was a false alarm. >> yes. thank you. >> that's ten years more advanced than what the va is currently using. i mean, that's -- pow! >> and finally, you've heard the story of scott fist her in our side show, he's the former republican, former scott fister in arizona who switched parties and legally changed his name to cesar chavez to win hispanic votes in his second congressional bid, but now a relative of the real-life labor icon cesar chavez wants the candidate thrown off the democratic ballot. he filed a lawsuit saying fister is attempting to confuse the voters and corrupt the elect ral progress, but he, himself, embraces his strategy, saying, "it's almost as simple as saying

elvis presley is running for president. you wouldn't forget it, would you? if you went out there running for office and your name was bernie madoff, you'd probably be screwed." this guy sound like a balloon head. up next, what does eric cantor mean for the the establishment types in 2016 like jeb bush, chris christie, beware? we'll see. you're watching "hardball," place for politics. are you ready grandma? just a second, sweetie.

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hi, francis rivera, here's what's happening. nbc news's chief foreign affairs correspondent has confirmed reports iraq has asked for air assistance in the country. the obama administration has also confirmed it is considering several options when it comes to assistance, including drone strikes and manned aircrafts. president obama spoke to graduating seniors in massachusetts. he told students the skills they acquired at school will help

make america stronger. the truck driver charged with vehicular homicide and assault in connection with a crash that injured tracy morgan and killed another comedian pleaded not guilty. now we take you back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." the political earthquake caused by eric cantor's stunning loss has rocked the republican world. look at the headline that ran across the top of "the wall street journal" today, "tea party upsets gop number two cant cantor." cantor has left an already divided republican party shell shocked. senator ted cruz of texas cheered david brat's victory, saying, "this election should be a reminder to all in congress, republicans and democrats alike, that the conservative base is alive and well and the american people will hold us all accountable." joining me now, joe scarborough the host of msnbc's "morning joe," michael steele, former chair of the republican national committee. joe, i want you to start. big picture, what's the noise

level about, as you see it, i think you're a mainstream conservative, what's the message to everybody in this big upset? >> well, the message to everybody is a message to democrats and republicans alike that the electorate is angry, but you got to stay connected with your electorate, and that just didn't happen with eric cantor. pat buchanan talks about political athletes, and in this case, i think you had buster douglas actually beating mike tyson. it wasn't buster douglas was so great, but tyson just lost his touch in the ring. i mean, think about this. i'm a conservative guy, yeah, i'm a mainstream conservative guy, but i wouldn't want to vote for a guy that voted for a $7 trillion medicare drug benefit plan without, you know, paying it off. that's what cantor did. he voted for the bank bailout. he said one thing in washington, d.c. about immigration, he said another thing about immigration when he got home. i don't think it was so much his position on immigration as he just never took it to the people. he became very disconnected, and

he ran against a guy who was very connected, and i think that makes all the difference in the world. >> not defending cantor personally, because i don't know him, but intellectually, they are trying to be this big republican party on immigration, making sure they have a shot at the hispanic vote, at the same time locally they don't care about that agenda. why should they care whether the national republican party wants to include more hispanics? they want the laws enforced. >> look, what's where the rubber meets the road for a lot of folks in the party, a lot of conservatives going back to 2004, 2005, began to be more and more disenchanted with washington, saying one thing in d.c. and coming home and saying something else. >> why are they doing that? >> up to this point, chris, they could get away with it. the base of the party didn't have -- they relied a lot on the members coming back and informing them and connecting them. well, guess what, social media has now done more to connect the base one to another, not just to

washington, than anything else, so they are getting this information firsthand, they are doing the authentic checkup on the members themselves, which you saw with the tea party revolution, if you want to call it that in 2009, was really the party activists saying, we got this now, we're going to help set the agenda, which is part of the long ball strategy that i think the tea party is -- >> let's talk about personalities, i always like talking personality, let's talk rubio, let's talk ted cruz, let's talk jeb bush, chris christie. clearly talking about the presidency, who's happy tonight? >> you know, i don't see any reason why jeb bush shouldn't be happy tonight. the message is to all politicians, again, you've got to go out, you've got to aggressively tell people what you believe in, and you got to fight. i was in a district that hadn't elected a republican since 1873. i did a lot of things that my district disagreed with, but you

know what, i also held about 100 town hall meetings a year, i said, listen, you're not going to agree with me on every single position, this is where i stand, it's why i stand there. if you don't like it, don't vote for me, but i'm going to keep coming back to you and telling you exactly what i believe. people will vote for you, they will give you a chance, they will give you a little bit of slack if you stay connected. at the end of the day, cantor didn't stay connected and he ended up paying for it. again, chris, there's an underlying anger still in the republican party among people out there that aren't even tea party members, they are main street republicans, who saw the republican party explode the deficit and explode the national debt over the first seven, eight years. they don't want republicans to get in power again and do the same thing they did between 2001 and 2009, bank bailouts, $7 trillion bank bailouts without paying for a dime of it, a medicare drug benefit plan

without paying for a dime of it. big government republicanism isn't better than big government liberalism. >> why don't the republicans and democrats do what the people want, especially the conservative side? the democrats can't in some cases agree with the conservative side, but the anger seems it could be met with reasonable action, cut the deficit, keep voting against it, keep voting against the debt, have an honest immigration bill that's really going to work, deal with the problem, make it work. why don't they do that, take that as their position? >> once you start to buy into the red versus blue paradigm, wasn't you start to buy into the us versus them paradigm, it's hard all of a sudden now to say, you know what, we can all do like reagan and tip o'neill, we can all do, even like clinton and newt gingrich, for that matter. so -- >> or bernie sanders and john mccain tonight. cut a deal on the va. >> on the va -- as we talked about on this show and "morning joe," we couldn't even get these guys and gals to come together

on a 90% issue in the country, gun control. >> here's the deal, matt said it perfectly on your show earlier today, cantor was not only saying one thing in washington and another back home, he didn't have an agenda, the house republicans didn't have an agenda they aggressively ran on. it was always a reaction to what the democrats were doing, we ran in '94, of course, we had the contract with america, agree with it or disagree with it, we were always going 90 miles an hour forward. democrats were always responding to us. what was eric cantor's view of where the country needed to go five years from now? what was the big plan? there's not a big idea right now, legislatively, for house republicans, and kibbe was exactly right, tell us what you believe in, don't tell us what you disagree with what barack obama and harry reid -- and if he had that agenda when he went home, and if he went home, he wouldn't have lost last night. it's that simple. >> joe, he says he goes home every week, but he obviously spends more times at bobby van's

and blt steak. you eat a lot of restaurant food in washington, hang out with a lot of pac directors, that's what you do, a lot of fundraising people, whose job it is to say i had dinner last night with this guy, and your whole company, social world is lobbyists. maybe what's that cantor said tonight when he announced his good-bye. >> that remains to be seen and almost the fitting ending to the story. >> the voters will feel very right about their vote. >> you're right, and for someone like cantor, the idea of going home meant wherever he lived in d.c. and the voters had a very different view of that. >> joe, big message, do you think the candidates -- you don't think it's going to bother jeb bush? >> i don't think so. listen, eric cantor's district is no more conservative than south carolina. and in south carolina, you had a guy that was pro immigration reform, lindsey graham, republican party nomination

going away. in 2012, you had newt gingrich, who is probably the most pro-immigration reform candidate out there, you know, he won south carolina. again, a very conservative state. but if you're going to sell it, you got to go all-in selling it. you can't bounce back and forth, you can't say you're trying to push for an immigration deal in washington, d.c. and then go home and run cheesy ads saying that your opponent is for amnesty. i mean, it's an absolute joke. you got to stay connected with the people, stay connected with the people, they will cut you slack. you will win elections. it's that simple. >> joe scarborough, watch you every morning. thank you. michael steele. up next, hillary clinton's book rollout this week is the start of big things for the clintons, so how's that tryout going? my colleague cynthia mcfadden interviewed hillary and that's coming up next. this is "hardball," the place for politics.

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♪ my dad works at ge. ♪ reading a lot about the kickoff for the book tour. hillary, dead broke, really? >> that may not have been the most artful way of saying that, you know, bill and i have gone through a lot of different phases in our lives. that was then, this is now, and, obviously, we are very fortunate. we've been given great opportunities. >> welcome back to "hardball." hillary clinton there appears to be tuning up her performance two days after saying she and her husband were dead broke when they left the white house in 2000. well, it's been the comment that led to this "washington post" headline, "clinton's book tour off to a bumpy start."

cynthia mcfadden interviewed mrs. clinton many times at various places throughout the many phases of secretary clinton's public life, cynthia spent more than an hour interviewing clinton on monday and joins me. thank you. i thought that was the small kind of gaffe, even a half gaffe about the dead broke. everybody, once she said we were $12 million in the hole, i think people should have understood what she meant, but i thought it's interesting how now she's moving along and refining, almost like an out of town play getting ready in new haven, you know in the old days? in other words, she's tuning it up. she says, okay, didn't say it right yesterday, i'm going to say it right tonight. as she said, take criticism seriously, not personally. >> well, exactly. listen, she certainly, as for a bumpy start, that was certainly a pothole, she hit it, it was a fair question, it was a bad answer. she's course correcting, try anlating, fixing it now, i don't think it's going to have real lasting effects. i have to tell you, chris, i have interviewed her all over

the world, all over the country, and when she sat down to talk to me on monday, i said you look rested. she said, i am rested, despite having written a nearly 700-pag hillary clinton rested. she seems to be in fine health. she says her health is just great. i don't think there's going to be any health question that stands between her and running for president, if she decides to do that. and i think a lot of us think maybe she already is doing that. >> what was her body language or chemistry you got from her. did you get a sense backstage, you spent all that time with her, not just on camera, do you get a sense that he's revved up, that this is a triumph. that she's heading somewhere besides a book tour? >> yeah, and listen, when you read the book, i think she is. i think she's making her case for running. i think she has to talk herself into it a little bit. i don't think she's kidding when she says she actually wants to hold that grandbaby in her arms before she makes the decision. she doesn't know how she's going to feel as a grandmother. i think that's genuine enough, but i suspect that she's going

to come around in eight or nine months and make the decision. >> what do you make of the fact that all the interviews that she's -- and she decides who to give an interview to. these gets are valuable to all of us in this business. she's given it to diane and robin and to you and later to greta and to, what is it, bret baier, but mostly women. it's pretty overt she wants to talk to women about her period as secretary of state, more than guys. why do you think? >> i don't know. she certainly put women at the top of her agenda as secretary of state. she's the first person to appoint someone for women's issues at the state department. she's very proud of her record on that, and i think, hey, listen, she's given a few hard-working journalists a break here. >> that! let's take a look. everybody's for themselves in this business. anyway, hillary clinton said people are preying on americans' feelings of fear and uncertainty right now. let's listen to this analysis of the public mood. >> what is going on in america? >> well, i think there is a

sense of fear and insecurity about the future, that is being taken advantage of by certain people in public life. and president obama has worked his heart out. i have seen it. i have watched him, trying to figure out how to save the economy, how to get health care for everybody, and at every turn, people are preying on fear and insecurity. that is so un-american. i mean, part of our dna is optimism, pragmatism, get together, solve problems, compromise. >> i guess the question is, what's to be optimistic about cynthia, because i don't see either party dealing with the problem of debt, deficits, illegal immigration. they just kick the can down the road on every issue. and that fear and uncertainty to me is well placed. the question is, what are we going to do about it? i think there are things we can do about it, besides getting angry. >> listen, my follow-up question was, who do you mean? are you talking about the koch brothers, the tea party? and she says, she didn't want to name names, yet. so i suspect we're going to hear some names attached to those

views as well. and certainly, you're right. i mean, hillary clinton says, it isn't about whether or not i'm going to run, it's how i see my vision of america and whether or not i believe i can implement it. that's what's going to determine whether or not i'm going to run and whether or not i should run. >> well, the democrats have had their serve a few time in recent years and haven't fixed the problem, as we know. hillary clinton's answer to your question about advice she would give her younger self was an interesting part of the interview. it turns out there was more to clinton's interview. let's listen to the additional advice she would give her 1990s self. >> i would say, probably, being the head of the health care task force is not a good idea. you can be a spokesperson for it, but, you know, it was so funny, because in arkansas, i had done all this work for bill, i'd headed the educations standards committee, i never knew that washington was so much more worried about a, quote, first lady taking on a policy position for her husband.

>> you know, that's fascinating. i wonder, you put it altogether, because she was the intellectual person behind the health care bill, she wasn't just the front for it, and she wasn't just the front first lady, she was the health care policy person. and yet she's saying she shouldn't have been that person. i think that's fascinating. she certainly had a first try at this, but who's to know it wasn't a good effort in the first place. >> yeah, you know, the beginning of the answer, we'd broadcast previously is that she said she had a better point of view, that she would take criticism seriously, but that she wouldn't take it personally. and she went on to say -- >> i love that. >> and i actually think, i've never heard her say this before, perhaps she has, i hadn't heard her say, that she wishes in retrospect she wouldn't head up the effort. she said, i sure as heck, shouldn't have taken on the role myself. interesting. >> well, cynthia, she certainly went about it with people like pat moynihan and john dingell. those were hot fights those days about how to go about this thing. but you've got some news there.

ic you're being humble. i think that is the first time she has said. >> i trust you, chris. >> i just want the outtakes, i want them all. anyway, thank you, cynthia mcfadden, and welcome to this great, grand nbc world. >> thank you so much. >> we'll be right back after this. i'm m-a-r-y and i have copd. i'm j-e-f-f and i have copd.

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let me finish tonight with this challenge to the tea party hero of the day, dave brat. first of all, congratulations on your upset victory of eric

cantor in virginia. let me challenge on something you said to chuck today this morning. chuck asked whether you believed in a federally mandated minimum wage. you answered by saying that wages can only keep up with productivity gains. you said only increases in productivity could be a marked justification for a higher income. i had someone check the numbers. you having a ph.d in economics will recognize what i'm doing here. you talked about the need for a longtime graph to show the increase in worker productivity, presumably what a worker is worth paying, to the increases in actual wages over time. well, i did just that. and this graph was produced by the economic policy institute. it shows the rising growth in productivity, it's the bold line there, going up almost 250% insistence 1950. and actual wages. that's the lighter line growing just a bit over 100%, over that period since 1950. well, you see the problem, dr. brat. the problem is, you're wrong. the correct answer is that productivity has grown 2 1/2 times as fast as wages, or if you want to put it this way, wages have only grown about half

the rate or less than that, actually, than worker productivity. so i need to take you to a retest now on what you told chuck todd this morning. don't you agree? again, i congratulate you on your victory. now, about that retest. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. another big show for you tonight, and this time, we promise, senator elizabeth warren will be here live. unless, of course, more shocking once in a lifetime political news breaks, and we don't expect that to happen. so to the ongoing fallout from last night's shocking once in a lifetime upset, when republican house majority leader eric cantor, the number two republican in the house, lost the republican primary in virginia's seventh congressional district, 56% to 44%. he lost to