under siege. isis militants have moved in on a major oil refinery, and president obama is now said to be considering a controversial tactic to potentially stop these terrorists in their tracks. >> even before iraq began unraveling, president obama was taking hits on foreign policy. what will this latest crisis do to his approval numbers? one of our guys put it this way. that new nbc news poll, it's not a good one for any politician, and it's a bad one for the president. we're going to dig into that. >> sometimes i wonder why anyone would want the president's job. are you listening, hillary? okay, so let's say she does want it, she wants it. does america want her? >> good afternoon. i'm luke russert. in the center of the political world this wednesday, just a stone's throw away from the white house, where president obama is now sitting down with

congressional republicans and democrats. he's briefing them on what he's thinking about the crisis in iraq. and perhaps getting congress, both democrats and republicans, on board with his policies. even though it would be easy for him to say why even try? and then there's the latest numbers in our nbc news/"wall street journal" poll. not good news for the president. the big dagger, more than half of americans believe the obama presidency is over, done, finance yooeto. sxlan simple, they don't believe he can lead and get the job done. as iraq continues to unravel even before this latest crisis, a whopping 57% disapproved of our our commander in chief conducts his foreign policy. who knows what that number would be today. even his overall job approval is way underwater. 53% disapprove while just 41% like what he's doing. that ties an all-time low and is down a full three points from earlier this spring. in fact, maybe the only consolation is he looks like a

rock star compared to everyone in congress, that building behind me, especially the gop. we're all about silver linings on "the cycle." speaking of silver linings, our senior editor of on the miz sxm politics, nbc's mark murray and brian boitler, senior editor with the new republic. mark, i've got to go to you first. we're fortunate to get these memos about chuck todd about the nbc news/"wall street journal" poll. i got one last night. i was scrolling through it. on the issue of competency, president obama is now polling lower than president bush after katrina. that's incredible. >> it is. you have that number. the 54% who sate president can no longer lead. and those numbers really jump out at you and show that this is just a brutal survey for the president and his administration. and you know, luke, going into this year our pollsters have always said kind of how health care goes so goes the obama presidency. in a lot of ways health care is so much better for this administration. but there have been so many

other issues they've had to deal with that have turned out to be controversial. look at the crisis that happened in ukraine, the va hospital situation there. now you end up having the instability in iraq. sxeen on an issue that should have been a winner and everyone should have been really happy about, the freedom of bowe bergdahl, that u.s. soldier in afghanistan, turned out to be anything but. so there's just been one controversy after another. and the administration has taken on that water. >> brian, i'm interested what you make of those poll numbers showing obama with a lower approval rating than bush post-katrina. and mark hit on an interesting thing. even the latest capture of an alleged mastermind of the benghazi attack and even the bringing home of bowe bergdahl, there's no joint celebration. it's instant partisan attacks. and i'm wondering how much of th that tactic from the republicans is playing into the really low approval numbers here. >> i think the answer to the

second question is sort of built in to the answer to the first question. i mean, obviously the white house would like it if president obama's approval ratings were higher but i think they've basically come to accept that the country's polarized and that under the best circumstances half the country's going to disapprove of him or maybe if the economy was doing really well maybe a little less than half. but when you factor in a slow-growing economy, you factor in some scandals, some controversies, the situation in iraq, you have a hard bloc of half the country opposed to him and then you end up, his nominatal supporters or even his hardcore supporters starting to get depressed, deflated. so the other 50% starts to peel off. and we're in the midst of a bunch of bad news for the white house. so i think it's sort of natural you that see the number take a little bit of a dive. >> brian, i think -- krystal mentioned the arrest of abu khatallah. and i think that actually changes the benghazi story, or at least reveals some things about it because ever since benghazi happened of course the right has said every other topic of conversation is a distraction from talking about benghazi.

now, this is greeted as either a distraction from maybe hillary's book tour or why didn't it happen sooner? and it sort of reveals the folks who have been banging the drum about benghazi as just trying to score political points, not results. because here's results and they're still criticizing that. even more than that, brian, this shocker printed in the "new york times," abu khatallah said he was moved to attack the diplomatic mission to take revenge for an insult to islam in an american-made online video. >> how about that, right? yeah, i think that basically everything about how republicans, at least for the last several months, have treated the benghazi scandal kind of gives the lie to the idea that they really believe that this is a genuine political scandal or really discrediting to the administration. you know, it doesn't really fit with what you would expect from a party that really believed that to sort of create these glossy brand ed campaigns and

fund-raising appeals. if this was really a substantive matter. and the fact that one of the masterminds gets captured and they start saying on the hill that -- on the hill and on fox news and elsewhere that what's going on is that this guy was walking around in plain sight and they waited to capture him to boost hillary's book sales or her reputation -- >> so crazy. >> -- at this time -- right. that that's not really a serious answer or serious response to this development. >> mark, with the recent events in iraq we're starting to see the return of the hawks on the republican side, people like lindsey graham, john mccain, marco rubio saying things like we shouldn't have withdrawn frommy, that we shouldn't be setting a date certain for withdrawal from afghanistan. is that lining up with public opinion on the republican public side among voters and is that the sort of thing it looks like it's going to play well in the 2016 primary? >> you know, overall when it comes to the americans' attitudes about foreign policy, they want less intervention right now. and that's the american populace as a whole. josh, as you mentioned, the

republican party is split almost right down the middle. half do represent those hawks, and you're trying to see folks like marco rubio carry that hawk banner, perhaps into 2016. the other part of the republican party are the rand pauls. and even someone like glenn beck was on his radio program recently and saying that democratic liberals had it right when it came to iraq, that the united states shouldn't have gotten involved in the very first place. so there is a very big divide. i do think the republican party, there are a few more hawks than there are the rand pauls and the pure libertarians when it comes to american foreign policy. but that is going to be the most fascinating debate come 2015 when republicans are duking it out over what kind of foreign policy do they want. a more hawkish one or a more dovish one? >> and mark, we'll get you out of here with this one. we were alarmed when the polling unit, during the government shutdown, historic lows came back for the republican party we'd never seen before. now we're starting to see historic lows for president obama. how does this play into the 2014

midterm? this is afternoon anti-incumbent fervor or just harder for the president and those associated with him with the democratic party? >> you know, luke, you look at this poll and everyone is wort off than they were in 2010. so president obama numbers are worse than they were in 2010. if you're a republican strategist you say a-ha, this is great news for my party, we had great gains in 2010, president obama's even worse than he was that election cycle. but then you also look at our poll, republicans in the tea party are in a much worse position too. and if it weren't the very heavy republican leaning map you had where most of the big battlegrounds are in states like alaska, arkansas, louisiana and north carolina, i would say this is a potential coin flip for anyone, any kind of outcome. i think the red state playing field gives republicans a little bit of advantage but their unpopularity, their own brand issues could potentially limit some of their gains come november. >> a lot of times move. mark murray, bryan boitler, thank you soech for joining us. as the president meets with

congressional leaders the situation on the ground in iraq spirals fully into chaos. we'll go live there and explore america's options. not many. should we get iran's help? you'll never guess who's suggesting that. "the cycle" rolls on. wednesday june 18th. do not go anywhere. ah. getting your vegetables every day? when i can. [ bop ] [ male announcer ] could've had a v8. two full servings of vegetables for only 50 delicious calories.

back now with iraq under sxeej r siege and rapidly reaching the breaking point. isis carried out an attack on iraq's largest oil refinery last night located about 155 miles north of baghdad. the refinery processes a quarter of iraq's oil and serves the country domestic energy needs. there are concerns now that the country's oil fields in the south are next and that could lead to global chaos. according to this morning's "new

york times," president obama is considering targeted likely unmanned air strikes. but achieving success that way could prove very tricky. let's get the latest on the ground from nbc's ayman moylhedin in erbil. how important is that oil field attack? >> it's important strategically and symbolically. it refines a quarter of iraq's oil. it would certainly have a tremendous amount of disruption on the electrical supply across this country. it would also create a sense of anxiety. we've already seen that on the ground in just days' worth of fighting. people are lining up for hours to get gas at the gas stations. so it's definitely creating real problems on the ground. but symbolically to see that the largest oil refinery falling into the hands of the isis fighters would give them tremendous amount of leverage in their ability to ultimately have more territory and more land and to really kind of perhaps down the road squeeze some concessions out of the iraqi government which would lose

that. it has important symbolic and strategic significance. meanwhile, the country's prime minister, though, is trying to paint this as the fight against terrorism. and he today addressed the nation trying to bring all iraqis united together, not making this about sectarian tensions. but it doesn't seem to be resonating with the local population in the sunni arab areas. >> nbc's ayman mohyeldin, thanks again. with the white house considering its options in iraq it's hard to find good ones top. to help us walk through what can be done if anything. let's bring in kenneth pollack. director for persian gulf affairs at the national security council under president clinton. now he's a senior fellow at the brookings institution. so ken, given we're not occupying the country anymore, what can and should we be doing about this situation? >> well, first you guys are absolutely right, that we need to recognize that our options in iraq are limited. and we should think about it this way. iraq went into civil war in 2006. what we're seeing today is simply a revival of exactly that civil war. in 2007-2008 the u.s. polled iraq through a massive military

effort combined with a huge diplomatic effort. that's effectively what it would take to do the same thing this time around, and we just don't have those resources there that we did have at that point in time. anything we do is going to have to be a lot more limited and it's going to have to rely on other actors to help us out in a way we didn't have to rely on them back in 2007. >> and ken, another thing is -- that's different from when we first invaded iraq is we are now much less dependent on foreign oil. does our increasing trend toward energy independence change some of the strategic calculus in terms of how anxious we are to intervene in the region? >> that's an important point, crystal. the problem here is it actually works exactly the opposite. it's certainly true that we are importing less oil from overseas. but our actual vulnerability has not changed one bit. the simple fact is the american economy relies on oil. it is a global oil market. a change in the price of oil will affect us back here. what's more, our economy is

completely intertwined with the rest of the world's economy. so if china's economy tanks because of problems in the middle east, our economy tanks because china's economy tanked. >> kenneth, one of the things that allowed us to save face in 2007 is when the sunni tribal leaders essentially turned on al qaeda in iraq because al darkari was too militant and killing too many civilians. the new leader of isis which is a spinoff of al qaeda in iraq, al baghdadi said he will not go and kill as many innocents as darkari did. one would presume he knows the culture better than a jordanian would. what about sunni leaders if baghdadi plays this game and does not kill that many innocent civilians? >> yeah. and i think this is the right entry point, luke, because that's what we've got to be looking to. we need to recognize that what happened here was that prime minister ma qulooik consolidated power in a brutal fashion, used that power to alienate the niz, drive many of their political

leaders out of office and it's really isolated the sunni committee, driven them away. the problem we've got is they've been driven into the arms of isis, of al qaeda, of all of these other tsunami militant groups. but the truth is they don't want to be there. they are very wary of those guys. you can say that on the one hand baghdadi and isis, they seem to have learned that lesson. to your point they seem to be behaving themselves up in mosul and the other cities that they've captured. but at the end of the day the sunni iraqi tribes really have no love for isis and really don't want to be in bed with them. so the question really becomes can the united states find a way to reach out to the sunni tribes moderate sunnis, empower them and create a solution to this problem that involves isolating isis and the other miltants? but the problem is that's going to require a government innd baghdad that's actually willing to brick the sunnis back in, limit the powers of the prime minister so the sunnis don't fear him and give the sunnis

back the political and economic stakes they have in the government which prime minister maliky doesn't seem to want to do. >> ken, there's an interesting piece in slate from fred kaplan talking about our potential future relationship with iran in this situation. and kaplan says sometimes nations form alliances with unpleasant nations to prevent something worse from happening. america and iran have a common interest here in keeping the sunni radicals from overtaking iraq. is it possible that we -- can we afford to not work with iran here? >> i think you put it the right way. we can't afford to not try to at least reach out to the iranians. now, look, we don't know what's going to be possible at the end of the day but there's some pretty good historical precedent. we should all remember that in 2001 after 9/11 the iranians reached out to us and the iranians were actually very helpful to us in our invasion of afghanistan. they helped us with logistics. they helped us with intelligence. they did a lot of different

things covertly, quietly that were very helpful to us because we both hated the taliban and al qaeda. now, in the case of iraq you're absolutely right, we and iran share some very important interests. neither of us wants to see iraq continue in the state of civil war. both of us would like to pull it out. that creates at least the basis for moving forward. the one thing that we have to remember, though, is once we get beyond those minimal interests that we share we have very different interests. iran would like to see iraq iranian aligned, shia dominated, may not care whether it's a democracy or not. we very much want to see iraq western aligned and democratic. so we've got some basic areas of agreement that we could forge some tacit cooperation. that may make things possible. but we need to recognize that once we get beyond those middle interests we do have some sharp difference tos too. >> kenneth pollack, thank you. >> thank you for having me.

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your news cycle. the nfl's team from washington, d.c. is vowing to appeal a ruling today by a federal trademark board canceling its trademark protections. the board called washington's nickname disparaging of native americans. many believe this is meant to put further political pressure on the team because if the ruling is upheld anyone would be able to sell team merchandise without paying royalties. trademark protections will remain in place through the appeals process, which could drag on for years. here's how fans reacted to the news down in alexandria, virginia this morning. >> if the name is that offensive to someone, i mean, i would hate for the team to beed with that negativity. i think the patent office is correct. another appearance on the hill by gm chief executive mary barra. she faced more questions about why the automaker took more than a decade to address a deadly ignition defect blamed for 13

deaths. we also heard from the victims of gm's failure to act sooner. >> my name is candice anderson, and i'm a survivor of the gm admission defect. so many families have been affected by gm's negligence. november 15th of 2004 i was at the wheel of a 2004 saturn ion that veered off the road and struck a tree, killing my best friend, jean michael ericsson. for the better part of ten years i've carried this unnecessary guilt that i was the cause of michael's death, that i was the cause of a mother to lose her only son so tragically, that i was the cause of two innocent girls to cry for their dad who will never come home. who will never see them marry and who will never see his grandkids. i was convicted of a felony when gm was the true criminal. >> meantime "the new york times" reports today that some of the millions of people affected by recent recalls are still waiting for repairs. barra assured lawmakers today that gm is a good company but

also that they "can and must be much better." also in washington today president obama celebrated the national day of making with the first ever maker fair on the white house south lawn. it celebrates students and entrepreneurs involved in american manufacturing. >> today is diy. today's diy is tomorrow's made in america. a revolution that can help us create new jobs and industries for daecades to come. >> we make it here on the cycle, a brief break from the tense environment here in washington, and down the street at the white house it might make you wonder why anyone would actually want to be president. >> to run for president requires a lot of stamina. >> i recommended that we do more in the very beginning to support moderate opposition. >> we have to keep trying to figure out how we can be in dangerous places. >> i was disappointed that the congress did not pass universal background checks. >> the buck stops with the president. >> mr. or madam president.

>> that was hillary clinton last night as she continues on the campaign trail. i mean her book tour. we'll get that right eventually, i swear. even if hillary clinton eventually decides she wants to move back into 1600 pennsylvania avenue, will voters roll out the welcome mat? our new poll shows about as many americans want another president clinton as those who don't. let's take this one to the four box and have a little wednesday spin cycle. and guys, i watched her interview yesterday on the other network and i've got to tell you one line struck out at me which is that she said that someone can come into office and promise all these wonderful things but can they actually get them done. i read that as a slight dig at president obama. others said that's what she's possibly saying to republican opponents in 2016. the point being, though, that hillary clinton is positioning herself as this internal tactician that knows how washington operation after her 20-plus years at a high-level game of politics in this city.

so my question would be to you guys. with this anti-incumbent fervor that is sweeping the nation right now, it shows no sign of slowing down, is that the best play for hillary clinton? >> i mean, i think that there are a lot of things that potentially could be at odds for hillary clinton with the mood of the country. and i've talked about this before. i mean, democrats always argue that she is the most electoral candidate and in a way she's a shoo-in. and sure, when you look at the republican side, there's not a whole lot there that seems very threatening. but the question is so divided that any democratic nominee, any republican nominee is going to have a tough time getting to the white house. it's not going to be an easy road for anyone. now, with hillary i think it's been very telling, some of the sort of clumsy maneuvers that she's made during the book tour, the dead broke comment being sort of the most obvious one to me. she's out of practice. and also, she wasn't a great

candidate in 2008. she had trouble relating to voters. she had trouble when she had to be on her toes answering difficult questions. to me looking at the book tour so far i don't see a different hillary than we saw in 2008. >> i think it's funny how people are so tempted to underestimate hillary all the time. the reaction to this looks very much like the reaction to the listening tour back in 1999 when hillary was thinking about running for senate from new york and people made fun of it and then it was actually really well received and she won that race very solidly. she's a very talented politician. i think it's actually remacabree that she almost won the 2008 primary despite being on the wrong side of the issues democrats cared most about in that priernl which had been the iraq war. if you look at the polls they say she was ahead in 2008 and she lost. she was head in 2008 typically with about 30%, 40% of the vote two years ahead of the election. now she's ahead with 60% of the vote in the last poll that was done. so she's going to walk to a win in this primary. the republicans are going to have a nasty infighting primary. it's going to allow herself to

build up her stature and be the strongest candidate democrats can have 234 this race. >> absolutely. and i think the historic nature of her campaign has put her under an unprecedented microscope. the microscope isn't usually this intense during the early part of a campaign. she hasn't even announced yet. we have to keep that in mind. i think a lot of folks in the media have to take a deep breath in terms of the depth of the deconstruction of her campaign, which has not yet begun. folks are saying we don't know what her campaign's all about, we don't know why she wants to be president. well, she doesn't yet know what the political campaign or terrain will be for 2016. we have to get a little bit -- >> that's exactly the problem right there, is that she has to figure out what the political terrain -- >> everybody does. >> she's been in public life for 30 years. shouldn't we have a sense of where she's going to come down on big issues? >> we don't know what -- >> but we don't yet know what 2016 is going to be about, and it's kind of like we've watched

two seconds of the movie and we're saying this movie's not going to win the oscar. >> that's the whole -- hold on, luke. that's the whole problem, though. that's the whole issue is that people have the sense, some people, and i think this was again the problem in 2008 and even beyond the issue with her vote on iraq was her inability to say that she was wrong and the sense that she was trying to find the right political answer rather than what she actually believed. and i think we're seeing very much a repeat of the same thing -- >> on that point -- >> -- trying to find the right political place to be -- >> as you try -- >> -- rather than coming from a place of core belief and i think that's important to voters. >> as you try to launch the elizabeth warren campaign, krystal, i will tell you this. i think the biggest difference, though, is there is not an issue within the democratic party that's as divisive as iraq was back in 2008. on top of that let's talk about the other thing that no one seems to mention here. going forward, she'll have the entire obama campaign wing behind her. so that's a very important fact. she'll have the data money.

she'll have this team of democratic experts that absolutely won in '08 and 2012 in ways that no one saw coming with the margins they put forward. and that's a very difficult thing to overcome on josh's point -- >> it is but you've got to have passion too. >> okay. but i concur with that -- >> mitt romney had plenty of money as well. >> thing mitt romney didn't have is the data mining and campaign apparatus president obama had and hillary clinton will have when the republicans have a wounded and divisive primary. >> thing mott romney didn't v., the thing almost no one has that she has is an extraordinary amount of political excellence on all subjects in terms of domestic and international. >> and look at how much star power she has. we're talking about her now in june of 2014. it's amazing. >> what goes up must come down. we'll see. >> more in 2016. krystal ball campaign manager. up next, his "rolling stone" hour on stanley mcchrystal rocked the military and afghan war effort. now, one year after his untimely passing, a novel discovered on michael hastings' laptop is

raising eerily prescient questions about iraq and how we cover it. his wife joins us right here on "the cycle." that's next. you don't want to miss it. sfx: car unlock beep.

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one year ago today investigative journalist and author michael hastings died suddenly in a fiery car crash in california. he was just 33. you might remember it was hastings' 2010 "rolling stone" article about america's top commander in afghanistan that essentially ended general stanley mcchrystal's career and raised serious questions about the operation there on the ground. now michael hastings is influencing the conversation about our current role in iraq even after his death. michael's wife elyse discovered an unpublished manuscript in his files and in the last magazine hastings drew on his journalistic experiences in nkz nxz intern to war correspondent to serve up a cutting satire of the media.

i've been reading it. it's really funny and also quite an indictment of mainstream media's role in the mar to war on iraq. michael hastings' wife elyse hastings joins us. we know this must a tough day for you. so we appreciate it even more. >> thank you. i consider it such a blessing that michael left this amazing novel that i get to promote and his legacy is living on in so many ways. exactly what you were talking about. the indictment of the establishment media in the run-up to the iraq war. we're seeing the same voices today calling the drumbeat for war. trying to get us involved in what will be another sunni-shia choosing sides sectarian war in iraq. it's kind avenue amazing the lessons we don't learn. that's why i'm glad that michael hastings has tried to remind us hey, let's do better next time. >> absolutely. >> elyse, your husbands with very kind to me during my career. a few years ago i asked nancy pelosi a question as to why she should stay in power. i got a lot of pushback from it. he wrote me a very kind e-mail that said don't listen to the haters, way to stick to the

follow-up. where did that come from? michael hastings just seemed to be better than any of his journalistic contemporaries wanting to speak truth to power and not fearful of it in any capacity. where did that stem from? >> well, he was beholden to his readers. that was at the end of the day what he cared about. he didn't care about being part of the club. he didn't think that the journalist's job was to become an elite yourself and to be hanging out at parties and to not question those and become too cozy with your sources. he was really brave in that sense, and i certainly admired it a lot and i'm glad that so many people appreciate his work. >> so this book is a send-up of the media. what do you hope reporters take away from it today as we have all these new troubling developments in foreign policy? >> that war shouldn't be used for career advancement. the iraq war really was a career boost for a lot of people in a lot of foreign policy circles and in the world of foreign journalism. and in this book the two editors are really pro-war liberal else and as soon as the war starts to

go south they abandon their previous position. so it's just gambling for them, but war to michael and as i've seen myself has real consequences. it's not nfl football. >> elyse, as krystal noted, it's one year to the day since michael's passing. we're all so sorry for your loss. he was an important person doing important work trying to change the world. some people have questions about the car crash. what do you believe happened? >> i think it was an accident, unfortunately. i hired a private investigator just because it was, the set of circumstances were really bizarre. and you always are hoping that maybe he's still out there, maybe he's still alive, and just for my own sense of closure and just to know that there was no foul play, i did that. and i'm very certain it was an accident. >> i'm sure that was important for closure. >> yeah. >> elyse, this was obviously unpublished when michael passed and you found it and decided to put it out into the world. do you think he would have been comfortable with that? why hadn't it been published before? >> oh, absolutely.

he i think would be so happy right now that he's being compared to hunter s. thompson, his hero, in the "washington post" book review. he wrote the book. he finished it right before he went on the embed with general stanley mcchrystal. and as you said earlier, that story became a big firestorm. he received a contract to write a book based on that embed and his experiences in afghanistan. and this was kind of put aside. he always thought he would publish it. he always thought it was a very important message. but he was a very busy, prolific guy. >> absolutely. we really appreciate you being here and sharing his work with us and with the world. ely elise jordan, thank you so much. elise is going to stick around and answer questions after the show. you can watch that on the krystal continued on thecycle.msnbc.com. a sneak peek on a gripping new doc on notorious crime boss whitey bulger. >> whitey's just staring at me and just grinding his teeth. he said, "i'll kill you. i'll stab you and then i'm kill

you." i'm like, holy jesus this is interesting.

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i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. whether you're just starting your 401(k) or you are ready for retirement, we'll help you get there. the most frightening and compelling american criminal of the past few decades is probably whitey bulger. he terrorized boston killing many, many people, ruling the underworld, and protecting himself via his tight relationship with the fbi and other law enforcement outfits. marty scorsese based jack nicholson's character in "the departed" on bulger and next year johnny depp will play

bulger in a film called "black mask." but whitey's real story is as compelling as hollywood could conceive. >> and he buried people there, buried people there and he went to sleep there. >> there were over 25 years where bulger ruled the organized crime world. he was never charged with even a misdemeanor. >> is the government excited about having bulger come back? some people certainly are. but there are others who have many sleepless nights about what james bulger's going to testify to. >> i asked the questions. i got the answers. >> i had contacts on the state police, the boston police, also on the fbi. >> when he was captured he came out of the elevator and faced law enforcement with their guns drawn and they were screaming at him get down on your knees, get down on your knees. whitey bulger's not going to get down on his knees for anybody. >> from a gripping new doc called "whitey: the united states v. james j. bulger" made by joe berlanger which includes some interesting phone italian views with bulger who's in

federal prison where he will be for the rest of his life. welcome joe and bulger's defense attorney hank brennan. joe, you talked to him through his attorney. who is he and how was he able to control the underworld and law enforcement? >> that's the essential question of the movie. whitey bulger was a brutal vicious killer but he's also a guy who had law enforcement in his back pocket. he paid off people for information. the conventional story that has -- the boston media has invested itself in is he was a paid informant of the fbi. but there's evidence to suggest that he was not an informant at all. that the corruption and relationship was much more corrupt and that he was not an informant but he was actually using the fbi as a source of information and he was being protected by the department of justice because there was a credible threat that the head prosecutor at the time, jeremiah o'sullivan, might be bumped off

by the mob in retaliation for the mid '80s department of justice takedown of the italian mafia. the film doesn't necessarily say that's the truth. but it explores these very troubling questions that still linger about this case. >> that's wild. >> hank, you were his defense attorney. what is he like? i mean, what is he like to deal with? what is it like to be talking to someone who's a murderer as he is? >> well, when you put past the historical perspective, he's like any other client. and the thing about jim bulger is he had an extraordinary memory. so he was a great guide. he could provide myself and co-counsel with information so that when we looked at things that were given to us by the department of justice we could look at it with a very skeptical eye. he gave us a road map on where he felt the pitfalls and the lies were, and it was an enormous advantage to know really the inside story as opposed to having to rely on the propaganda that's been disseminated for decades through the department of justice. >> joe, one of the most remarkable things to me about

the story is while whitey bulger was leading his life of crime and then on the run his little brother bill was sevening as president of the state senate in massachusetts and then president of the university of massachusetts. >> yeah. >> how did that political connection play into this investigation? >> you know, there are a lot of rumors out there that the two sides fed each other, but none of these allegations have ever been asserted. but do you have to wonder. it's an extraordinary story. you have one brother who rose to the top of the criminal empire, ruling the streets of boston, while the other brother rose to the top of the political machine. and billy bulger was brought before ten grand juries and there was no credible connection ever established that he had actually helped in his brother's career. but you do have to wonder about that. >> hank, luke russert here in d.c. i've got to give you credit because you managed to plant this fantastic theory that whitey bulger perhaps was not an fbi informant or a government informant. i want to read a quote from

kevin cole, a "boston globe" reporter who gave his entire life essentially to this case, almost was killed over it. "the reason why serious journalists who have spent years investigating whitey and his protectors in the fbi have concluded he was an informant is because there is an amount of evidence showing that, while there is only his word, the word of a serial murdering sociopath, that he was not." where are you getting this from that he wasn't a government informant that flies in the face of every single piece of evidence that has come out in the last 30 years? >> well, by evidence you're talking about a lot of paid testimony by government witnesses, murderers who have turned government witnesses, and also, by the way, the film is not necessarily saying he was not an informant. it's looking into troubling pieces of evidence that the defense has presented. >> but sir, this is a sensational claim to make that strikes me as something to try to push a movie. where are you getting -- >> have you -- >> -- the idea he was not a government informant? >> have you seen the movie? the movie presents both sides of the argument.

and mr. cullen has made a lot of money by publishing the standard story. you know, so he has a conflict of interest. his book is about "the boston globe's" reporting that he was an informant. so of course he has a vested interest in maintaining that story. >> to hank. why would the fbi overlook the fact that, what, debbie davis, debbie hussey, two women suddenly disappear, the innocent murders of roger wheeler and michael donahue. why does this just fly away? where is the evidence that he was not an informant? >> when you make the sensational claim that he he was an informant, you make it based on secondhand information. what you ignore is there was a long-standing relationship between the department of justice and known organized crime figures, not just jim bulger. and the agenda of the department of justice is to use these figures in organized crime to fight their wars and political goals. so for you to regurgitate something that is said by an author that has been fed propaganda for 20 years by the federal government shows no substance. so at this trial we deliberately

went into the facts of whether he was an informant, and i asked every single witness if they had ever heard him give them information. and every witness for the government that they called that was a former law enforcement officer said jim called said ji bulger never gave them information. whether there was one piece of information that ever led to a prosecution, the answer was no. those are really the facts. that's not my opinion. >> sir you got -- >> when you have a local journalist who has a stake in the claim of the bulger franchise and put his legacy as part of the fiction -- >> but you guys -- you guys are sensationalizing this in the robin hood folk lor and he was a murderer. was that money well spent for whiter bulger's defense? >> you never heard me call robin hood of anything. i called facts and because it upset certain people and attacks the institution in somehow people are offended. what you should look to the

greater harm. the victim's families who never got the justice and redress because there's a regurgitation of a fabricated story. if there's accountability on the department of justice they should be equally accountability rather than victimize the victims. good journalism will vind date -- >> with you worth $2.6 million from taxpayers of massachusetts. >> that's an interesting question but i want -- >> he did not earn $2.6 million. hank earned far less than that. that's just a sensational -- >> he talked about the victim's families and the people of boston. i lived in boston when whitey bulger was doing this. he cast a very large shadow over boston. people were afraid not just victim's families but lots of people were afraid and affected by this idea that maybe we couldn't trust local law enforcement because they were helping whitey and stories about billy. talk about how this affected the people of boston?

>> well, one of the interesting phenomenons at the trial is that i've never seen at a trial where the defendant's -- the victim's families were cheering the defense on because the defense in cross-examination was trying to ferret out the truth about these very issues we're talking about. you had a trial where loved ones of victims were actually supportive of the defendant's counsel because it was they trying to get this information out about the nature of the corrupt relationship of the fbi and the department of justice. you know, clearly bulger's reign of terror had a tremendous impact on all of these victims. that's precisely the tragedy here because he could have been and should have been brought in, you know as early as 1979, should have been indicted. shouldn't have been allowed to

roem the streets as he killed and maimed people. >> fantastic film. good luck with that. up next, luke let's loose on the world cup. usa! usa! are constantly monitored for threats. outside and in. that's why hp reports and helps neutralize more intrusions than anyone... in the world. if hp security solutions can help keep the world's largest organizations safe, they can keep yours safe, too. make it matter. look at what i put together. cheddar and honey nut chex mix. get outta here! i made this belt with traditional, bold, and peanut butter chocolate chex mix. you guys are cute! i've got trail mix, peanut lovers, chipotle cheddar, dark chocolate, hot n' spicy... turtle, cookies 'n cream, italian herb & parmesan, sour cream 'n onion, and brownie supreme chex mix. and it rotates.

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[ applause ] >> how great it was. that was the scene in kansas city after the united states beat ghana on monday. i like many americans went crazy and fooled myself into believing that i love soccer and truly understand the beautiful game. i'll ride this high until the u.s. loses. a few weeks back the coach said

if the usa cannot win this world cup. he was assailed by critics for questioning the resolve of the great united states. folks brought up the 1980 men's hockey team that upset russia proof when the usa digs down deep they can beat anybody. he doubled down and said, you cannot tell the general public you're going to win the world cup. it's unrealistic. sorry to throw a wet blan ket, he's right. the usa won't win this year or probably the next few world cups, it's because soccer in the usa gets the sub par when it comes to coaching and top tier usa athletes. that's why the u.s. roster is populated with dual nationals including five german americans. any alone make up 22% of the roster. in america, the money and prestige for beth athletes in coaching is in basketball and football where the heroes go, mike kel jordans, et cetera.

a rich history of being a melting pot treated soccer as the pin that cal of american success we would be in the top three every time. look at the u.s. women's team. since the world cup started for ladies in 1991, the u.s. women's team won it twice and came in second twice and never finished lower than third. because soccer and basketball are the two team sports for female athletes with actual leagues in the u.s. they have the coaching and program in place. they also carry the most prestige. that to me is enough proof that our men could compete and perhaps win every four years if they had a t pool of talent our women have. i'll go a step further. in 2010, the netherlands made it to the world cup final. here's what a u.s. soccer team from ohio, state of 11.5 million, 5 million less people than the netherlands would look like if you take some of the best athletes who grew up there over the last 30 years. lebron james, mario manningham,

will allen, and kevin martin and a.j. hawk. good luck, brazil getting a shot in. i have no scientific proof but i suspect if those guys played soccer, their whole life and had quality coaching, they would be pretty darn good. you see, folks, it's not that we can't win the world cup. we can. we're not putting our best foot fear forward. cheer on the u.s. until your voice goes hoarse, we dominate like we do in olympic basketball, maybe that happens when kids don't play football because of concussions, don't hate the coach for saying we can't win. he speaks the truth in 2014. that being said, usa all the way. "now" with alex wagner starts right now. look who's talking about military intervention in iraq. it's wednesday, june 18th and

this is "now." >> a political solution is the only viable solution. >> major developments in iraq. >> militants are continuing their campaign to try to topple the iraqi government. president obama meeting with congress at leaders zpl he needs to outline and overall strategy. >> give me a scenario as a snow ball's chance of hell of succeedi succeeding. >> to see if there's a political solution -- >> where the battlefield turns our way without u.s. air power. >> one option off the table, air strikes. >> empty threats, meaningless red lines, leading from behind. >> being on the right side of history. >> we hope you will join us in a hard but necessary task of restoring american strength and power. >>