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also being joined by members of the iraqi army who are re-enlisting at this point. the government is even offering free flights to the capital who soldiers who deserted and found themselves stranded. security officials say that sunni militants have seized an iraqi crossing on the border with syria. about 30 iraqi troops were killed. the officials say that people are now crossing back and forth freely. the iraqi government is also facing its own tensions from within. the spiritual leader of iraq's shiite majority is now saying it's time for new leadership. that's a not so subtle way of saying without saying that it's time for prime minister nouri al maliki to go. u.s. secretary of state john kerry is expected to travel to the region soon to discuss the stability of iraq. part of that is likely to be made dealing with the request of iran who has asked the u.s. for air support to counter the rebels there in iraq. the posters in this picture from

tehran yesterday are leading iraqi shiite cleric. nbc news foreign correspondent ayman mohyeldin is live in iraq this morning. ayman, given the sectarian tensions and how they seem to be escalating, is a political solution even a real possibility? >> reporter: well, certainly if you ask some of the officials in power, particularly here in the kurdish regional government, everybody insists. you know, i sat down with the kurdish prime minister today and he told me there is no military solution to this, there is only a political solution. that political solution has to begin with the leadership of this country to try to come up with a new framework. a military solution may buy time and set the isis fighters back on their heels, but it doesn't solve the underlying grievances that exist among the sunni arab community or the sunni arab population here that are really fueling some of the resentment against the iraqi government and leading to some of these

fractures along sectarian lines. this is fundamentally a political problem that manifests itself along sectarian lines. right now the only solution, according to some of the officials i've been speaking, to is a political one. i'm not sure that prime minister nouri al maliki is convinced by that. i think some of the people around him want to address this militarily and that's the message coming out of baghdad. they're trying to address this situation as a threat by terrorists, and they want to deal with it militarily. >> ayman, i guess one of the big questions is here, obviously you have isis, something like 10,000 isis fighters but they have been supported by more moderate sunnis who have joined them or let them come in and take over places like mosul. if there was a more inclusive government, with or without al maliki, do you think more moderate sunnis would be open to that political solution? >> reporter: absolutely. you know, we've seen this work in the past. keep in mind when the u.s. was here, they were actually able to

use the local sunni tribes and local sunni population in what was then called the awakening councils to fight al qaeda back in iraq, but that was back in the day posed a threat to the american soldiers. so a lot of the isis support that is now coming from the local communities includes members that were former regime officials under saddam hussein, former military officers and local senior tribal leaders. those groups can be co-opted into the political process if they're given a seat at the political table, but right now they have been marginalized over the past six to seven months and that's why there is this ground swell of support isis is able to tap into and advance rather easily through those areas. >> thanks to ayman mohyeldin. please say safe. we want to look at iraq in the wake of the vacuum created when coalition forces drove saddam hussein and his government from power, a moment that many people believe has a

whole lot to do with the situation iraq finds itself in now. >> reporter: this is the olympia hospital in downtown baghdad, stripped completely bare by looters. they were still there when we arrived, shamelessly grabbing a few final items. two young boys even removing the light bulbs. many ordinary iraqis are getting extremely angry about sights like this and the red cross demanding the u.s. react. >> it is a duty of the occupying power to do so. >> widespread looting not just in hospitals but in schools and power plants and, most famously, the ransacking of the national museum. the only building that u.s. forces protected was the oil ministry. defense secretary donald rumsfeld's reaction at the time to the looting was, quote, stuff happens. but the u.s. military had been warned about the high potential for looting once the iraqi government was removed from

power. the sunni regime of saddam hussein that had ruled with an iron fist and suppressed the shia majority and kurdish minority, sometimes by gassing them to death that, regime was gone. in its place, chaos ruled. order was eventually restored at great cost both in terms of the billions of dollars that were spent or lost and the more than 4,000 u.s. servicemen and women who gave their lives. a new government backed by the coalition was voted in by the shia majority and that's the government now led by prime minister al maliki. but as president obama told "morning joe's mika brzezinski in an interview that will air on monday, iraq has changed. >> you said that the war was ended in iraq. you said al qaeda was decimated. you said it was stable. >> it was. but just because something is stable two years ago or four years ago doesn't mean that it's stable right now. what we have is a situation in which in part because of growing

mistrust between sunni and shia, some of the forces that have always possibly pulled iraq apart are stronger now. those forces that could keep the country united are weaker. it is ultimately going to be up to the iraqi leadership to try to pull the politics of the country back together. >> if you spend any time reading about iraq, you will quickly find out that the tribal divisions in the region do go back to the seventh century. but the problems that iraq is facing right now are not about fighting a dispute that's thousands of lines old. a direct line can be drawn from that 2003 invasion to what is happening right now today. sunnis used to control the government absolutely until the u.s. and coalition forces changed all that. so now shiites run the show just as absolutely. sunnis don't trust that the current government will ever represent their interests. the same can be said for the

kurds. so as long as that's the case, the radical sunni terrorist group known as isis has all the support that it needs for its campaign to take back at least part of iraq, city by city and day by day. joining us now, nancy youssef, msnbc contributor patrick murphy, former democratic house member from pennsylvania who was the very first veteran of the iraq war to serve in congress. also michael kay, a retired british lieutenant colonel and reporter with six operational tours in iraq and afghanistan. thank you all so much for joining me. nancy, i want to start with you about this question of a political solution and what's likely to happen with prime minister nouri al maliki. he's under a lot of pressure from within his own party, obviously from the u.s., from shiite clerics. do you think it's possible for him himself to change and forge a more open, inclusive government, or does he really have to go to begin the march

towards what we hope is a potential political solution? >> well, there are two issues at hand. one is nouri al maliki himself who at his very core really believes in defending the shia and the shia cause. he has been like that from the very beginning. i've interviewed him in the past and he always spoke in a quite sectarian nature. so asking him to come forward and being a national consensus leader is a challenge. another factor is that he has a long history of not beingin kla -- being inclusive so how one overcomes that history is quite difficult. and thirdly, he feels that he has reached out in the past and has been misled and given bad advice by sunni and kurdish leaders, and so from his perspective, he doesn't know who to reach out to and who to trust those factions that he's supposed to be reaching out to

so all of those factors come together to make it a challenge for him to undo the history, both his own personal one and the one as his tenure at prime minister and create a sense of national consensus. frankly the fact that there hasn't been a real change in tone and approach since this crisis began certainly portends to someone not committed to national reconciliation the way the united states and some iraqis are asking him to be. >> certainly. it seems to me like it's hard to see how to get a political situation with prime minister al maliki still there. patrick, it seems to me like iraq is essentially coming apart at the seams, something that folks have been predicting could happen since we invaded iraq. saddam hussein was able to sort of keep it together through brutally repressive tactics. we were able to keep it together through tens of thousands of our men and women sort of keeping the peace. and folks have been saying from the beginning that maybe what has to happen is for iraq to

divide. joe biden back in 2007 was much mocked for saying maybe what we need to do is to partition iraq. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> the only way there's any possibility of dealing with sectarian violence is you've got to separate the parties, give them some breathing room, give them local control. if you don't do that, tim, you think we're going to get there in any way with this present government? can anybody envision a central government made up of sunni, shia and kurds that's going to gain the trust and respect of 27 million iraqis? it's not going to happen. >> he was mocked at the time. you were there. you saw these people and the conflicts firsthand. is there anyone who can actually bring together sunnis, shias, kurds in a democratic system? >> first off, there's three candidates right now and they're all shia. does shia have the majority of population within iraq and within the government so it has

to be a shia leader but someone that's moderate. i will say quickly, though, paul wolfowitz and rumsfeld said there's going to be no sectarian vie sgle violence. most folks said there would be some except those folks. let's make sure history is accurate. it's going to have to be a shia leader but one that's moderate and will reach out. for someone like me who lost 19 men in my unit in iraq and i was there and got back ten years ago, to see all the blood that we invested in that country and we gave it to them and they did have a central government, but maliki is part of the problem. he's not part of the solution. and he has to go. i understand a big announcement this week of 300 troops going in there, but we have to precondition that military support, because it's not a military solution, it's a political one. we have to get there by getting rid of maliki. and it's not we, it's the iraqi people and the iraqi government that has to get him to go. >> what i'm so excited about is having both of you here because both of you were there, so you

have firsthand knowledge of what it's like on the ground. mikey, what do you say to that? is there anyone who can bring these groups together in a democratic government or is some sort of divided iraq inevitable? >> i was there in 2003 across the border with the u.s. marines and the brits coming in from the south from q-8. the important thing about iraq in terms of the way we've taken conflict into the future is it was the comprehensive approach. it was sinner ja ener jiegz wha wanted to achieve. so the military would never take an action unless it was for a desired effect that the state department wanted to achieve or usaid wanted to achooe. we're still trying to work that out. i agree with patrick actually in terms of the reconciliation piece. people are talking about maliki and reconciliation with the kurds and the sunnis. i think we're beyond that now. i think we need someone else, as patrick was saying, to actually

rebirth that good will and that glue. but look, the important thing i think here is we're talking about this locally. we're talking about this within the constraints of iraq. what i think is really important is let's look at what's going on with syria. if you want to strike at the heartbeat of isis, you have to go to aleppo. the leader of al qaeda in iraq has moved to syria because it is a governless state. the paradox of this, krystal, is that we've got political gridlock. it is a political solution but we've got political gridlock in syria at the united nations security council and we got that because of the undesired consequences and the mistakes that we've made in iraq. so we're actually bearing the brunt of our own consequences. what we need to do is focus on iraq. like afghanistan, you won't solve afghanistan unless you solve pakistan and taliban on both sides of the border. >> we can't look at these as discrete problems. we'll be right back.

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we are back with more on the path forward in iraq, and there is a quote in "the new yorker" that grabbed me that i thought was -- kind of summed up where we are. they said what the americans left behind was an iraqi state that was not able to stand on its own. what we built is now coming apart. this is the real legacy of america's war in iraq. and, nancy, one of the bizarre absu absurdities of the situation we find ourselves in now is that we are essentially on the same side as iran here in this conflict, given that they are also shia dominated, they have a lot of power with prime minister al maliki, they also obviously have an interest in regional stability and not having terrorists next door. is this an opportunity in a way

to potentially build a little bit more trust with iran? they do have a new president who we've had some hopes will be more moderate that ahmadinejad. >> that's one of the debates happening here in washington about what kind of relationship can be formed with iran in light of this. because of the fact that like the united states they would like stability in iraq and a shia-led iraq, which is a shared interest. the conflict becomes what is iran's interest vis-a-vis the arab world. are they a force that's causing stability or instability in the broader arab world. there's an argument to be made that they are continuing to the broader instability in the arab world that led to the birth of groups like isis. and so the question becomes how do you build a relationship with iran vis-a-vis iraq without at the same time encouraging a group that has led to greater instability in the region. the other thing to remember is that there's a lot of very high anti-american sentiment in iran,

and so the idea of building a relationship with them would be in that context. how you do that arguably is one of the biggest challenges. >> mikey, we've been talking a lot about the 300 special forces folks who will be going there. they have been called military advisers, i think, for a lot of civilians that's sort of an abstract term. what will they actually be doing on the ground? >> well, from a special forces perspective, the nature of special forces, it's covert as it is. so if they were going in, we're probably not going to know about it. but if they're there, they're going to be conducting what's called s and r and s and i. so they're not going to kick down doors and do pseudoosama bin laden missions, they'll be there to suck up the intelligence and understanding what isis are all about. i went back to baghdad in 2006 and 2008 to conduct two operational tours and we were hunting al qaeda and high value assets across the city. we were operating off

intelligence and networks that took years to compile. really understand who are the key value people that we need to target here. that's going to take time to build up with isis. >> so that's not going to happen overnight. >> no. we try to get an understanding of who this organization is and what the connections are, what the flows are, what the logistics flows are between there and back into syria. i think that's what they'll be building is this intelligence picture. >> patrick, is there a neat dividing line between combat troops, the president saying we're not sending any more combat forces back in, these are just advisers. is there a real neat line there? >> michael is right that they're there to support and gather intelligence against isis. but they're going to be at operating bases, supplementing brigade headquarters so about 3,000 iraqi soldiers. we have our s.e.a.l.s, our rangers on the ground there. the problem is that isis and other insurgents will know that they're there. every night they'll be getting

mortared. they're going to be getting mortared from the middle of towns in a civilian area. they're going to pop off a couple rockets and then they're going to move because they know how american forces work. we don't want to see civilian casualties. we're going to be there with the iraqis. we don't want to be held responsible for civilian casualties, even though they're going to be getting attacked. that's the problem here. you're sending 300 american forces in to bolster up the iraqi army and in reality, if maliki is still in charge, it's not going to be part of the solution. as ayman said in the beginning of your segment of the show, maybe it buys us time to get maliki out of there. but we need to get him out of there in days, not weeks or months. the biggest news this week was the vote of no confidence. he is the number one shia cleric. people listen to him in the shia community so hopefully that will put enough pressure -- >> hopefully that will start to move things. what i so appreciate about both

of your take is you say, oh, it's just 300 people. no, those are 300 american lives that we are now putting on the line in iraq again. nancy, i want to give the last word to you. let's say that a political solution doesn't work out. let's say that we do end up with a divided iraq, with isis in control of some region in iraq and in syria. what does that look like? what are the consequences for the u.s.? >> well, in the short term it's a quasi state with its own military, a successful military campaign, it's own flag, it's own law. they would have to govern that state which is a challenge they haven't been presented in the past. if they are successful in that, then presumably they're not going to use that power just within their own states but actually seek to destabilize and expand these to u.s. allies in jordan and possibly expand that threat to the western world itself. and so we talk about separating iraq as a solution, but arguably

it creates new kinds of problems because it becomes a very dangerous, very brutal sunni dominated state that will have aspirations that extend beyond its borders. >> no easy answers for sure. my thanks to nancy youssef and michael kay. up next, some good news for the obama administration from the foreign policy front. that's next. ♪

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sir? >> well, i also said that we'd get bin laden and i didn't get him in 11 months. so we have informed, i think, the public that there's a sealed indictment. it's sealed for a reason. but we are intent on capturing those who carried out this attack, and we're going to stay on it until we get them. >> that was the backdrop for the breaking news on tuesday that u.s. special forces had in fact captured abu khattala. >> i said at the time that my absolute commitment was to make sure that we brought to justice those who had been responsible. when americans are attacked, no matter how long it takes, we will find those responsible and we will bring them to justice. >> abu khattala has given several media interviews in the year and a half since the

attack, including one with "the new york times" on a hotel patio not long after ambassador chris stevens and three others were killed, so catching abu khattala has not stopped charges that the obama administration has mishandled the attack and its aftermath, it's only raised new ones. >> if you've known where this guy was and bowe bergdahl was, why is it being used to change the narrative of certain stories. >> you have the former secretary of state who's in the middle of really high profile book tour and i think this is convenient for her to shift the talking points. >> the timing sure is interesting, isn't it? >> let's wait and capture him when it's -- when the going gets tough. >> what a great thing to announce on an interview tonight on fox news, that the perpetrators have been brought to justice. it's all too neat and it's too cute. >> too cute. white house officials say they were waiting on a combination of factors that could minimize the chances of casualties before going after abu khattala, and in

fact no lives were lost in tuesday's capture. now that the u.s. has the lead suspect in the benghazi attack in custody, where are they going to put him? john mccain and marco rubio have urged the administration to send abu khattala to guantanamo. there's also the question of how they plan to prosecute him. the obama administration says abu khattala will be tried in civilian court. on tuesday senator minority leader mitch mcconnell urged the administration to take a hard line when it comes to getting information from abu khattala. >> there has been a tendency in this administration, as you know, to treat this like a law enforcement matter. read them their rights and get them a lawyer. i hope they're not doing that. the most valuable thing we can get from this terrorist is information. >> so what happens next with abu khattala and have the politics of benghazi changed at all? here to help answer those questions are msnbc contributor patrick murphy. he's back with us, along with

'em aem emily sussman and msnbc political analyst david corn. thank you all for helping us understand the situation. patrick, address this first talking point from the right. was it legitimate for it to have taken so much time to eventually get abu khattala? were there real reasons why it took so long? >> of course there was reasons. you don't just say, hey, we're going to handcuff you. you have to have a team and our boots on the ground did a phenomenal job doing that, our special forces. it just drives me crazy as an american, it took us two years to get him. it took barack obama two years to get him. it took two and a half years for him to get bin laden. of course they want to forget the fact that george bush for seven and a half years didn't get bin laden. they just want to forget about that. but it sends a message, whether it takes two years or ten years,

you do harm to an american, we're coming after you and we're going to get you and now we're going to try you. >> and in october we got a guy who was involved in the embassy bombings 15 years after the fact. i mean underlying this argument that they're making, the political argument the republicans are making is the assumption it's really crass and foul assumption that the president doesn't care. that he really doesn't want to protect america. he really doesn't want to get these guys. if you put the whole fox thing into a neat its box, it's he only did this as part of a conspiracy to help protect hillary clinton, and they did it so they could -- >> which is insane. >> it is completely nuts. and the fact that it -- >> it's unamerican. >> it's like why do they hate america so much. but it really goes back to the bottom line effort to delegitimatize barack obama and to make him seem like the other not really american and they do it again and again and again. you asked earlier will this change the politics in benghazi? no. because the politics is part of

this larger process which they can't let go of. >> emily, it is very strange because the folks who have been talking a lot about benghazi and who are concerned about benghazi and have been talking a lot about abu khattala and when are they going to get him, they don't seem that happy now that we have him. and there's another fly in the ointment here. abu khattala said that the attack was in retaliation, "the new york times" reported this, on the day of the attack islamists in cairo had staged a demonstration to protest an american made online video mocking islam. mr. khattala himself said that the assault was retaliation for the same insulting video, according to people who heard him. so another sort of republican talking point about how absurd it was to think that this was about a video is kind of being undermined here as well. >> absolutely. look, there's a couple of things going on here.

all throughout president obama's presidency, there's been this incredible discomfort from the right in the fact that he has actually led intelligence forces, led military forces in a stronger way even than a lot of democrats would be comfortable with. and it's really put the republicans in a position where national security is something they own. this is something they have. so i love the fact that even when this is done in a -- when the capture is done in a smart way, a way that is according to the law, a way that we can actually try him, that we didn't lose any forces, it can't be something we can celebrate as americans, there must be something wrong with it. there must be a scandal around it, it must be trying to protect secretary clinton, that must be it. >> if it's something good it must be a conspiracy theory, it's all political. >> right. >> and for me it's a flashback to the questions about guantanamo and how we should try terrorists. just to put the fact out there, we have an 87% conviction rate of terrorists tried in civilian

court. you're a jag officer, patrick, a lawyer. we should be trying these folks in civilian court. our system is up to the task. >> absolutely. we'll put them in jail for a very long time, probably the rest of their lives, especially this knucklehead who was the mastermind of four americans being killed in benghazi. we have tried over 500 terrorists in federal court and put them away in jail. guantanamo, we have released over 500 in george bush's regime. we had detainees and let them go. all i would say is that criminal court is no joke, federal criminal court. you go to a federal penitentiary and you are brought to justice. i will say they make it sound like we're prosecuting them under this crimes code like it's a civilian private court. it's not. it's legit. this is -- these are courts that, by the way, are very effective. guantanamo bay, it's $1 million per detainee to hold them. it's about $32,000 a year to keep them in federal court so i

know all these fiscal conservatives in the republican party -- >> there's another side of this too. you played the clip of mitch mcconnell saying i want to make sure they get all the intelligence as if they're not doing that. i mean they put these guys on ships. they keep the prosecutors away from them. barack obama has demonstrated, if not he, the whole administration, that they really want to go after these people. they want to stop terrorists. >> absolutely, of course they do. >> when they have someone in their custody, they're going to exploit them as much as they can and get that information. so it's really like mitch mcconnell coming out and saying, boy, i hope that barack obama does something good for his kids. i hope he loves his family. who knows if he does or he doesn't, but i have questions about it. >> you've got a dog to kick. >> i'm so glad you brought that up because that's something i've been thinking about as well and we'll pick up on that point right after this break.

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there has been a tendency in this administration, as you know, to treat this as a law enforcement matter. read them their rights and get them a lawyer. i hope they're not doing that. the most valuable thing we can get from this terrorist is information. >> that was senate minority leader mitch mcconnell on tuesday talking there about the capture of abu khattala and how the administration is going to deal with him. what is he implying there about i hope that we get all the intelligence out of him that we need? >> i mean it's basically sort of a shocking statement. the fact that the minority leader of the senate is going out there and saying that it is unamerican to be giving him his rights. the fact that we don't trust the courts. like is that now partisan? is it now up to democrats, the president, department of justice to be defending trust in the courts? like there's a reason that we have these protection, and we believe that -- and they do actually work. like we try terrorists through the courts. this is something that we do. but to make it partisan, to not

trust the courts to be able to handle this, it really gets to that like the general cutting down and degradation of american -- >> of all of our institutions. >> of all of the institutions, of everything that we have. >> there's something else at play here that we've seen from dick cheney and others which is the theme that the president doesn't care about these people as terrorists, that, you know, he'd rather read them their rights and deal with terrorism. >> or he wants to have a chat with them. >> we've heard cheney say this quite explicitly whenever he rises up from his undisclosed locations and says this president cares more about reading them their rights than stopping them. that's almost a direct quote. >> or even worse, that he sympathizes with them. >> they say this over and over again, as if the president doesn't really care and people like mccain who says we should send them to guantanamo, as if that's sort of a magic place for terrorists. the guantanamo system, as you've noted, doesn't really work. we've released them, we haven't tried them.

mccain wants to send them to guantanamo but he doesn't want to water board them because he's against torture, so he won't do the full chaeney. there's these people who use that as a battering ram against the president and from a policy perspective, it does not make sense. >> guantanamo has not kept us safer. in fact it's used as a recruiting tool for jihadists. >> it's not like he's on that ship with defense sglounl we're not talking about club med there or even club fed. >> i will say if we just take a step back, they want to make such a hard time -- they have three committee hearings talking about the talking points from one sunday show. there has been a stark contrast between how we dealt with the 9/11 terrorist attack and benghazi terrorist attack. so three congressional committees and obviously susan rice's comments have been dissected, et cetera. how about the two years of

sunday talking -- the talking points on sunday shows from dick cheney, condoleezza rice, paul wolfowitz, to bring us to the war in iraq. oh, there's a connection to 9/11 with iraq, oh, there's weapons of mass destruction in iraq, none of which were true. the stark contrast on how we dealt between these two terrorist attacks is striking and appalling, because face it, you know, what they all said after 9/11, let's not point fingers, let's not dissect the fact that president bush in august in 2001 -- >> the post-information of the 9/11 committee for two years. >> i'm so glad you brought that up because we hear all the time it's not just republicans who are partisan, democrats attacked president bush. but actually in the run-up to the iraq war a lot of democrats backed president bush in the 9/11 commission. there was a very genuine attempt to get at the truth of what happened, which is something that is utterly lacking in all

of these various benghazi committee investigations, and that's not to say that we don't want to learn the lesson that say we need to learn from that attack. but there is no -- no legitimate attempt to get to the truth. >> foreign policy and national security has often been a partisan issue that people fight about, often for good reasons, for the policy reasons, but i think there has been a change in the last few years when it's just purely partisan and when you look at what's going on with iraq and the president's attack, he gets attacked from republicans for what he does and what he doesn't do. they attack him without any cause for giving a suggestion of what else to do. dick cheney's op-ed this week in "the wall street journal" was nothing attack, attack, the president is weak, the president is reckless. it didn't contain one suggestion on what to do. henry kissinger would say this is what i think we should be doing. cheney doesn't do that anymore, it's just attack. >> and when we had the 9/11

commission, the congress implemented the 9/11 commission recommendations. here we have recommendations from what happened in benghazi, from admiral mullen and others, that have not been implemented into law because they want to play politics. >> there's not even a hearing. >> good news, bad news, it doesn't matter, it's all a chance to attack the president. i want to thank msnbc's patrick murphy whose show airs sunday at 1:00 p.m. eastern. patrick talks to actor and activist martin sheen about his work in trying to help heal returning vets. thank you also to emily sussman from the center of american progress. we'll see you both a bit later on in the show. up next, why black southern democrats may be the most important voters to the republican party establishment right now. we will explain, next. ♪

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senior citizens. but the details of the get out the vote campaign now taking place in mississippi ahead of tuesday's runoff in the republican senate primary is so unusual it is actually drawing national attention, as we've mentioned on the show before. senator thad cochran, a six-term incumbent, is in the fight of his career against a tea party challenger, chris mcdaniel. the mississippi state senator finished ahead in the primary but only by half a pointing and under the 50% threshold that would have made this tuesday's runoff unnecessary. all this despite the scandal of those pictures taken of senator cochran's wife from her nursing home bed. so clearly every vote counts in this race. the stakes on tuesday are really high, and that is the backdrop for new reports this week, which say senator cochran's turnout operation is looking to african-american democrats to swing the vote in his favor in tuesday's election. three weeks ago this ad showed up in a local jackson newspaper

with the predominantly african-american readership and it encourages readers to get out and vote from cochran. the senator gets praise from democrats for supporting all kinds of initiatives that republicans typically don't want to highlight. but mississippi is over 37% blar black and that's the most of any state in the nation. the ad was paid for by a pac called all citizens for mississippi and nobody knew anything about this new group until this week when it was reported in "the new york times" that it shares the same address as an african-american mega church. this is not how pacs normally operate. in the wake of the reports, the chair of the mississippi democratic party sent a message on facebook to a reporter alleging that senator cochran's allies were funneling thousands of dollars to black preachers to provide, quote, walking around money to get african-american democrats to the polls in the republican runoff to maybe tip

the balance in senator cochran's favor in a republican primary. the cochran campaign has said it is embracing support from any place they can get it. the senator's words became the headline in the clarion ledger thursday. the more the merrier. so there's a lot to discuss. with fewer than 72 hours to go before polls open in mississippi on tuesday, we have alexander burns, senior political reporter for politico. he's just back from a trip to mississippi. alex, our producers did reach out to the church where that pac is incorporated and to the democratic operative that's coordinating senator cochran's efforts there and they did not rely to our invitations to come on the show. so let me ask you, what have you heard there on the ground there in mississippi about cochran's efforts to bring african-american voters into this race? >> i'm not surprised they were not responsive to come to the show because there's a lot of that going around in this mississippi runoff. there is this sort of strenuous effort on the part of thad cochran's campaign and the super

pac supporting him to reach out to black democrats, particularly black mayors and black pastors, people with close relationships with specific communities to bring them out to the polls. of course really nobody wants to come out and talk about that openly, because it could have unintended consequences, bringing out the other side just as aggressively as it brings out -- >> there could be a backlash here. i mean it doesn't seem like it's working because it's a pretty novel approach. normally when we see republicans challenged to the right they run to the right as fast and far as they can. in this case cochran is going to the center to try to pick up democratic voters. >> that's right. his strategy is to both bring in those democrats and independents and also to wake up some of those sort of mainstream, casually engaged republican -- registered republicans who may not have cared enough about this race to vote in the first round but who might be more natural cochran voters than mcdaniel voters.

i was at a mcdaniel event with rick santorum. both the senate candidate and presidential candidate saying the other side is trying to bring out democrats. michael bloomberg is trying to buy this election because he did cut a quarter million dollar check to that cochran super pac. >> you have been reporting on rick santorum and other national tea partyish figures coming down to mississippi. how important has this race become to the tea party and the momentum of the tea party? >> oh, i think this is arguably the most important race of the year for them. if not for that eric cantor primary, which nobody saw coming and these national groups were not involved in, mississippi would be the only place on the map where you had a really significant chance of booting out a republican incumbent. so for the whole sort of national road show of conservative groups that have been involved in all these primaries, going back to 2010, now folks like rick santorum and sarah palin, this is the whole ball game for them. so tuesday is incredibly important not just for mississippi but for the national

conservative movement. >> yeah, it's a fascinating story, it's a fascinating race. i'm really interested to see what happens on tuesday night. thank you so much to alexander burns of politico. >> thank you. still ahead, are indictments imminent in the bridgegate scandal as a new report says?

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another very important story we want to bring to you this morning, homeland security officials now say that 52,000 children have arrived at the u.s. border since october. 52,000 and counting, and these are just some of the new pictures this week of the holding cells where minors are being kept as they wait to be processed. vice president joe biden is in guatemala to address this crisis, while the first lady of honduras is traveling to the u.s. this weekend to track down and return honduran children whose families felt the desperate need to send their kids away from the country with the highest homicide rate in the world. we'll be right back. ♪

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it is no secret that scott walker is a divisive figure. since taking office in 2011, he's faced huge protests over his efforts to eliminate bargaining rights for most public employees, all of them really except for the firefighters who supported his campaign. but when he faced a recall election in the wake of that dispute, he won. that's just some of what happened in wisconsin since scott walker became governor. there's also the question of what happened before he went to the capital. for his entire governorship scott walker has lived under the cloud of investigation. two investigations to be exact, looking into what scott walker does when he runs for office. the first investigation was into illegal activity in his 2010 campaign while he was still milwaukee county executive and it resulted in guilty pleas from six of his former aides and allies. the second investigation comes out of his recall fight and it concerns alleged coordination between walker's campaign and outside spending committees. over two dozen of them,

including some that take in that limitless, anonymous cash. since that money is not subject to wisconsin's campaign finance laws, walker's campaign could not touch it or have any influence over it. coordination is a no-no. except on thursday, a federal judge unsealed documents that revealed prosecutors believe walker was part of a, quote, criminal scheme to coordinate fund-raising with outside groups, a link that could mean big trouble down the road for the potential 2016 republican presidential nominee. the prosecutors refer to an e-mail that walker allegedly wrote on may 4th, 2011, during that recall fight to republican strategist karl rove. you remember him. who was running the super pac american crossroads. it was about a consultant named r.j. johnson who was simultaneously working for the walker campaign as well as for the wisconsin pac club for growth. according to the document, walker wrote bottom line, r.j. helps keep in place a team that is wildly successful in wisconsin. we are running nine recall

elections and it will be like running nine congressional markets in every market in the state. the e-mail allegedly written by a sitting governor seems to suggest coordination with outside groups. we invited governor walker on the show and called and e-mailed his campaign for comment. they did not respond. walker did take questions briefly at the state capitol on thursday. >> people can say or do whatever they want. i think to me an objective, third party of the judiciary at both the state and federal level made it clear they felt there wasn't a case. >> joining us now from madison is scott bauer, he covers wisconsin politics for the associated press. scott, thank you so much for joining us. i want to start with that e-mail that's gotten a lot of attention, allegedly between scott walker and karl rove. it seems to indicate that there may have been some coordination with outside groups. some folks would say, though, hey, i've had a lot of political campaigns engage in this sort of

thing. does this seem substantively different, problematically different? >> well, the prosecutors are saying that the governor's -- one of the governor's key strategists, r.j. johnson, was working both for walker's campaign and running wisconsin club for growth, and in that role he and others were essentially running a hub where they would take money in from all these different groups and then feret it out into other organizations that would then run advertising favorable to the governor and other candidates for office. and the prosecutor's argument is that that amounted to illegal coordination, illegal campaign fund-raising. and the position of wisconsin club for growth and others is that what they were doing is not barred under the law and in fact they feel like it's their first amendment right. and that is what a federal judge in may agreed with them on and issued a ruling that has halted the investigation for now. and so that decision is under

appeal to the seventh circuit court of appeals right now, but as we stand today, the investigation is on hold. >> the legal circumstances are a bit confusing here, but basically the question is it's pretty clear there was some coordination. the question is whether or not that coordination was illegal, because the groups in question did not specifically say vote for scott walker, so that is somewhat of the legal issue at play here. what walker says is, and these are not exactly his words but this is like a partisan witch hunt that prosecutors are just trying to go after him and that it's baseless. tell us about these prosecutors. are they partisan folks? >> the special prosecutor who was hired to lead this investigation, it's important to remember there were five county d.a.s who agreed this ought to be investigated. wisconsin has a law referred to as a john doe law that acts much like a federal grand jury. these investigations happen in secret. prosecutors can compel

testimony. they can issue subpoenas. for the better part of a year this was ongoing in secret and no one knew about it. the special prosecutor who was hired to lead the investigation is actually someone who has said he's a republican. he said he voted for governor walker. but the county attorney -- or the county d.a. in milwaukee is a democrat and so the governor is, you know, focusing on the democrats who were involved in this investigation while other folks who were -- are involved are actually republicans. >> so in fact there are both sides of the aisle participating in this investigation, which actually at this point we should be clear has been halted. scott bauer from the associated press, thank you so much for helping us with the details of this story. and that is how the story is playing out in wisconsin. here to bring some national context to this, we have ken vogel, a reporter at politico who's written a great new book about big money, that is in fact what it is called, about how politics and cash intersect and msnbc political analyst david corn is back with us, washington

bureau chief at mother jones. david, let me start with you on this question of how this will impact scott walker. he was talked about as a top tier 2016 presidential contender. now i'm wondering if he'll be able to get through his 2014 re-election. the latest poll has him tied with mary burke, his democratic opponent. >> whether he likes it or not, he has fallen into the same support group with chris christie and bob mcdonnell. republican governors who once were talked about as possible presidential contenders. you know, scott walker of course has been out there, much on fox news, trying to poo-poo this investigation. he said it's been resolved. well, that's false as we've just explained, it's on hold but it could proceed, could not proceed. the problem that he has, that chris christie has, is that with this cloud of scandal hovering over them, you'd have to be kind of foolish as a republican donor

or even as a republican operative, if you're looking at who to work for to sign up for any of these guys because rather than wind up in the white house, they could end up in the slammer, so this really puts his presidential ambitions on hold while he fights for his life in a competitive race to retain his governor seat in wisconsin. >> ken, david has such a great way of putting his finger on the problem there. obviously you have been researching, talking to these big republican donors. are they going to be very nervous about getting behind scott walker when this sort of cloud is hanging over him? >> short answer, no, krystal. actually i think this could potentially help him -- >> what? >> -- because it's so -- you know, the substance -- it's both rhetorically and optically different than chris christie -- the trouble facing chris christie, which is really sort of emanates from what can be seen and what i think some donors see as a fundamental personality flaw within chris

christie. in this case you have the folks around scott walker who may or may not have run afoul of a super nuance law that is very rarely enforced at the federal level. >> and it is a super nuanced law but when you have prosecutors saying things like a criminal scheme. i mean that seems pretty clear for voters to understand. >> right. and the interesting thing here, though, is that conservatives as well as some like libertarians actually disagree with the law, disagree with campaign finance restrictions more generally, but even more specifically these coordination prohibitions, and they see them as unconstitutional infringements upon free speech. these big donors who are taking advantage of this pose as a big money sort of wild west atmosphere, they do in fact see some of the laws the same way, as unconstitutional infringements on free speech. in fact the way some of these documents came to light is scott walker's allies are actually

suing to overturn the law saying that they are being -- their free speech rights are being infringed upon by these coordination prohibitions. and so it's sort of become in the circles of which i'm talking to some of these donors, a little bit of cause. >> that's interesting because then the question becomes do they want to support a martyr? usually donors and others don't rush to a martyred cause, even if it's to their heart because they worry about electability. here they're such ideologues if they believe walker is being crucified on the cross of bad campaign finance law, do you still run to that presidential campaign. >> of course he's not even charged in this matter. i think the odds suggest that he's probably going to make it through this without ever being charged and it is sort of more of a symbolic case. >> let me throw something else at you since you think that walker may actually even be helped by this circumstance, which i haven't heard anyone

else with that take so it's very interesting. >> helped among big donors. >> okay. so you think he may still be in trouble for 2014? as i just mentioned, the latest poll has him tied with mary burke. she's read a very careful, nondivisive kind of a campaign. he also had the very bad news come out this week that wisconsin was 37th in job creation. frankly, walker ran as a reformer, right? so i think this whole narrative about corruption is very detrimental to who he has framed himself as, as a politician. >> yeah, i think that's right. i think that in wisconsin there are a number of circumstances and this is just one of them. whether it sort of plays into them and undercuts really this reputation at the state level as a reformer, you know, i think that's a real possibility. and even were it not for this case, he would still be facing a

very difficult, more difficult than a lot of folks thought and predicted re-election fight. that more than this case is what potentially undercuts his prospects as a 2016 presidential candidate. and they're very different. but if he loses, the conversation is over. >> very interesting. well, david already put him in the camp with chris christie. and in fact, guess what, we're going to talk about chris christie next. from one governor to another. are federal prosecutors closing in on mr. christie? we will look at that with my panel. that's next. are the largest targets in the world,

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from scott walker we turn to another potential presidential contender for 2016. yesterday new jersey governor chris christie went to new hampshire, the state that holds the very first presidential primary in the country. he was there to raise cash for the republican governors association and maybe to raise his own profile at the same

time. he's on what many are describing as a comeback tour after months of scandal. he's trying to burnish his tough image as he did before. the conservative faith and freedom coalition gathering in washington just yesterday. >> you do not enter a principled compromise with someone you don't believe has principles. you don't compromise with someone that you don't fear. because if you have nothing to fear, you think you're going to get exactly what you want. >> christie is talking like the george washington bridge scandal is far in the rear-view mirror, but on thursday, "esquire" magazine reported based on unnamed sources that four members of the christie administration are facing near certain indictments for their roles not only in bridgegate but also for the diversion of port authority funds to highway and development projects in new jersey. as for whom might be targeted for indictment, the potential targets include christie's appointees at the port authority, david samson, bill

brokeny and david wildstein and bill stepian and bridget kelly. kelly the author of the infamous e-mail, time for some traffic problems in ft. lee. "esquire" speculates that the biggest variable is who might make a deal and give evidence against the others and maybe even against chris christie himself. sources say the most direct way to get to governor christie is to turn david samson. they also say not to underestimate what david wildstein has on governor christie. a request for comment from the governor's office was not returned. there's an open invitation for wildstein and baroni to appear on the show. so chris christie can try to dance his trouble as way with jimmy fallon and tell "the tonight show" host that he can hypothetically beat hillary clinton. he can also make a trip to the first in the nation primary state. but will that be enough if the investigation against his administration unfolds in a way

that now looks much more likely. for a look at what all this means, i am joined by brian murphy who's been following this story over the past several months. he's also a professor with brook college. msnbc political analyst david corn is still with us as is ken vogel of politico. brian, this has been your beat. does this reporting in "esquire" seem credible to you? >> we get nervous about unnamed sources. i think the two writers have enough writing on this that if they're wrong, they know that there's a consequence to that and they're highly motivated to have gotten it right. the rest of it, i think the idea that they're going after david samson is not surprising at all. the idea that paul fishman the u.s. attorney, is going to try to use that specifically to go after christie is what's news and what should be alarming to the governor's office right now. >> and we're talking about a few things here, not just the bridgegate scandal. we're also talking about shady dealings potentially.

what is it likely or possible, i should say, that christie may have actually broken the law on? >> the thing that seems -- i mean, right. in a sense bridgegate, sort of the hash tag #bridgegate has been a broader scriptor of what's going on here, it's never been just about lane closures. it's -- one of steve's producers described it as the tape on the door on the parking garage at watergate. the lane closures is one thing. what seems more dangerous is stuff like the hoboken story, which even if you strip away what the mayor of the city has said, if you look at what happened there and what the documents showed, david samson was pivoting off a port authority grant to -- pivoting off public money in a port authority grant in a way that was going to promote a development project that was going to specifically benefit a client of his law firm. that's dangerous and that could very well be a violation of a hobbs act, which is section 1951

of the criminal code. and that specifically relates to participating in a stream of benefits in a way that's inappropriate and suggestive of conspiracy. >> i've said it from the beginning, that the lane closures are not -- they're not the things that chris christie should worry about ultimately from a legal perspective. >> from a political perspective maybe. >> but even so, i think that would fade if that was all there was here. but when you start -- you know, authorities, like the port authority and others, the bridge authority, are basically slush piles of money that aren't well controlled. we hear from the governor's office and governors tend to put in their best pals, their cronies. and david samson is connected to a law firm that does all these development deals that are associated with what the port authority does. so almost any time you put a federal prosecutor into the midst of an authority, there's a good chance they can find something.

>> something. >> so it's whether you draw that prosecutor in. and the use of sandy relief funny. >> yes. >> trading port authority money for development deals, these are the things that get to be kind of institutional, maybe more so in new jersey than other places. but if you start looking at it from a legal perspective, it can become very problematic very fast. david samson is 74 years old, he has parkinson's. if he's on the hook for anything criminal here, he doesn't want to die in jail. >> as i just said, the reporting is there's a lot of pressure being put on samson to flip and give up whatever he potentially has on christie. i mean, ken, david is talking about slush piles of money. that sounds pretty good. i want to figure out how i can get one of those. >> you've got to be careful. >> but ken, i was struck watching that clip of chris christie at the faith and freedom coalition, he is a very talented politician. he's been counted out before and made comebacks. it's very unclear what the legal future is here.

is it at all possible that he survives this story? >> you know, i just have a tough time seeing him getting over this and becoming a viable 2016 presidential candidate, because not only does the narrative really cut at his main selling point, this idea that he's a no-nonsense, take charge, problem solver who doesn't play politics, but it undercuts that with the audience that he most needs, which are these big donors who were, if you remember, trying to coax him into the race back in 2012 and who are seen as a major strength of his heading into 2016. so many of them are sort of sitting back and evaluating the field in a way that makes it challenging for him to argue and his supporters to argue that he's coalesced this potential strength, what was once seen as a strength of his, a big donor base around his candidacy. he was out in park city, utah, for the mitt romney seminar and he told these donors, these donors are worried.

the first question that he got according to my sources was about bridgegate and whether it's over and he said i don't decide that, but you need to stop worrying, suggesting to them that it was over, there was nothing more to come. but it seems to me he can't have it both ways. his main defense in all of this is he didn't know his staff was doing this and now he's telling his donors or potential donors, wannabe donors that it's over? no. you either have to say i'm aware of everything and, therefore, was aware of what the staff did and know that there's no more coming, or you can say that i know nothing about this and don't know what's coming. that's what the donors are worried about, that more is coming. this "esquire" report certainly suggests there is more coming, this is not over for him. >> the interesting thing, though, is while he's having trouble with the big donors who saw him as the answer to their tea party woes, he's now becoming more popular with the tea party, with the faith and freedom coalition. >> it's all a media liberal attack. >> he's now become a martyr. he's being attacked by the

liberal media. that's all this is are democratic prosecutors. so he has gotten more street cred with the crowd that he was supposed to be the antidote. >> we're looking at 2014 now and these midterms playing out and that crowd doesn't have as much power as they had in 2010 and i kind of doubt -- i think they'll have even less power over the 2016 nominating process. and the donors are going to be really making an effort to take back the party. they don't like chris christie, that's a big problem for them. >> last word for you on this. >> i would just reiterate that the danger is that our understanding is that samson, baroni and wildstein used to meet for hours every week in the board room at the port authority and they were a pipeline into the governor's office. so if there's anybody who was positioned -- >> if these guys get indicted, and we've got to say if, but if that happens, i think christie can't absolve himself. these are his buddies.

he can't say i didn't know at that point. >> and i think politically enough damage has already been done here. my thanks to ken vogel of politico, david corn from mother jones and brian murphy, a professor with brook college. are the most important lessons of the world cup in brazil actually happening away from the soccer field? stay tuned for that, next.

we want to show you what it looked like in rio just yesterday. protesters who were demonstrating against the world cup and for improved health and education services. an even bigger protest filling the streets of sao paulo the day before marking the first anniversary of mass dm demonstrations across brazil a year ago. we'll have more on what that might mean for growing inequality here in the u.s. that's next. if you're living with moderate to severe crohn's disease, and it feels like your life revolves around your symptoms, ask your gastroenterologist about humira adalimumab.

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sports fans around the world are enjoying the second week of

the world cup. not everyone is sharing in the excitement. on sunday the associated press captured video of a police officer firing what appears to be a live bullet at protesters near rio degentleman narjaneiro. anger is brewing after the government spent an estimated $11 billion to host the tournament. there were massive protests last year over plans to raise transit fares in order to help pay for that cost. entire communities were destroyed when thousands of residents in the slums were pushed out of their homes to make way for the cup. brazil is one of the most unequal countries in the entire world. the top 10% of the population earn half of the nation's income. but at the same time millions of brazilians are joining the ranks of the middle class. the center for brazil's war on poverty is a cash giveaway. the brazilian government hands out money to mothers living in poverty as long as they send their children to school and use health care services.

according to a recent study, the program is responsible for more than a quarter of brazil's reduction in poverty over the past decade. but while brazil has taken steps to reduce inequality, the u.s. has been moving in a different direction. this chart from a new book "capital in the 21st century" shows income inequality in the u.s. spiking to levels not seen since the great depression. american ceos are now paid 257 times the salary of an average worker in the u.s. fast food workers and other low wage workers have launched protests for better pay and working conditions, but it's not just low income individuals who are saying that the hollowing out of the middle class is a real problem. >> income inequality is a very destabilizing thing in the country. too much of the gdp has gone to too few of the people. >> when even lloyd blankfein is worried about inequality, you know you've got a problem. how can we reverse this trend that threatens the middle class?

are there lessons we can learn from other countries like brazil to help close the inequality gap. joining me are heather mcghee and jared bernstein and former economic adviser to vice president joe biden. he's now a senior fellow at the center on budget and policy priorities. jared, i want to start with you. we talk about the potential negative consequences of inequality in the u.s., some of which i think are already manifest manifested. in brazil it's much clearer, though. how has really dramatic inequality undermined their social fabric and political institutions. >> well, the first word that comes to mind is social and economic mobility. one of the problems we have when we're talking about inequality, i've been dealing with this issue for decades. what i used to do is put up a slide and say, look, there's a lot of inequality and people might say, oh, that's discomforting. what we're trying to do now, what research is moving towards,

is trying to look at precisely what your question is getting at. what are some of the implications? what are some of the societal problems? one of the most important is that when levels of inequality become too high, become so excessive, and brazil is an excellent example, the ability of people to move out of the bottom and into the middle is severely compromised. education a clear path out of poverty. for example, those barriers become much higher in the context of inequality levels like we've seen in emerging economies like brazil. now, i will say to their credit, as you have mentioned, that they have been taking steps to try to lower those barriers, whereas in this country i'm afraid those barriers are getting higher. >> heather, that's one of the things that intrigued me so much about brazil. on the one hand inequality, some of the worst in the world. and yet they're doing things

about it and inequality is actually on the decline. extreme poverty down 89%. we've been told by some that inequality is inevitable and there's nothing we can do about it. i think brazil blows up that myth in a way. >> absolutely, krystal. i think that's so important. we have been doing a whole body of research on this all to drive home a similar pointing, which is that the economy is not the weather. and in fact we can do a lot to reduce inequality. shareholders can vote against excessive ceo pay like they did at chipotle. we did a report on fast food showing it's over 1,000 times to 1, the ceo to average worker pay gap. employers can actually afford to pay more. so many of these low wage employers like walmart spend more money using just surplus cash to buy back their own stock in the stock market and that could actually give their lowest paid employees really middle class jobs. and of course what the president can do. the president can still with

executive orders, the way that he did with the executive order in the state of the union raise the minimum wage for federal contractors. we actually just issued the report this week that showed that there's actually a huge federal purchasing footprint that can be used to say, you know what, we're not going to actually give our federal contract dollars and health care service payments to low road employers. we're going to do it to high road employers and lift up 20 million americans. >> so even in the face of congressional opposition, there are things that can be done. jared, i think another one of the right wing myths that brazil undercuts is this idea that the social safety net is a hammock, it's lulling able-bodied folks to sleep. actually paul ryan puts it better than i do. >> we don't want to turn this safety net into a hammock that lulls able bodied people into lives of complacency and dependency. that drains them of their will to make the most of their lives. >> first of all, brazil is having a lot of success with expanding their social safety

net through their program in particular and there's also been this mythology that if you just gave poor people cash that they wouldn't spend it in the right way, they'd blow it on frivolous things, maybe alcohol, maybe cigarettes. in fact in brazil, they are just handing out cash and it is working really, really well. >> right. i mean i think with bos familia, the program in brazil, one of the interesting things about it is that the cash grant comes with a requirement that families make sure their kids are in school and getting appropriate health care. and i think that that's a very useful -- that's proven to be a very useful policy for them. remember, we're talking about a country in brazil, and we have similar problems here, though not quite as deep, where oligarchy, where so much of the wealth is held by so far. if you look at the landownership

in brazil, it's really skewed. so what we're talking about there is some real redistribution of opportunity. and what has consistently been found to be very deeply false is this argument by paul ryan that if you help poor people, they're just going to, as you said, frivolously waste the assistance. >> big screen tvs, right? >> somehow, by the way, if you help rich people, if you cut their taxes, all kinds of great things happen. >> that's totally different. >> but if you help poor people, they just -- you know, that just doesn't work. in fact one of the things that we've documented really i think pretty carefully for folks who have looked at our anti-poverty programs is that many of them, in fact some of the largest ones, are very much pro work. the earned income tax credit is a great example of that. >> heather, another thing that i've been thinking about is democrats have withbeen pushing

an increase in minimum wage. very important. even more important than that i think would be for workers to have more power in their workplace so that they could push themselves for a higher wage. >> that's right, that's right. people who are -- right wing folks who are anti-government should really be saying let's leave this to the marketplace, and the marketplace includes workers and employers. >> that's right. >> there are a lot of different things the president can do and congress can do to make it easier for workers to take power into their own hands and bargain with their employers. this is a degree of freedom and self determination that is a hallmark principle of this country. >> absolutely. >> that has been undermined by the aggregation of corporate power up against workers and unions. >> and again, i think critical right now that we raise the minimum wage, but i compare it to the giving of the fish versus teaching the fish, which is another thing republicans frequently talk about. if workers had more power, then you could rely on the markets to do the right thing more often. my thanks to msnbc contributors jared bernstein and heather mcghee. up next, the washington redskins lose their trademark.

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the new york yankees, the l.a. lakers and washington, d.c.'s football team are some of the most popular and the most valuable sports franch i saises the country. only one of those teams appears to be one step closer to a possible name change this week. on wednesday, the u.s. patent office cancelled washington football team's trademarks, calling the logo and the name "redskins," quote, disparaging of native americans. from a legal standpoint the team can continue to use those trademarks but it could have a hard time protecting its rights to their team. the ruling does not mean you can begin selling your own redskins shirts and hats on the internet but that may not be true for long. this case is certainly far from closed. the d.c. football team says it will appeal the ruling. if history is any indication, it could win that appeal. they rescinded the trademark

protection 15 years ago. federal court overturned that ruling four years later in part because the plaintiffs, which included a group of native americans, had waited too long to file their suit. on wednesday, the redskins' attorney released a statement that reads in part, as the district court's ruling made clear in 2003, the evidence is insufficient to conclude that during the relevant time periods the trademark at issue disparaged native americans. even if d.c.'s team wins that appeal, that won't stop all of the intense political and cultural pressure the front office has been under. last month 50 u.s. senators signed a letter urging the nfl to push the washington franchise to change its name. senate majority leader harry reid has vowed not to attend another game until the team is called something else and even president obama has weighed in on the issue. >> if i were the owner of the team, and i knew that there was a name of my team, even if it had a storied history that was

offending a sizeable group of people, i'd think about changing it. >> despite all this pressure, owner daniel snyder has refused to bunl. he told "usa today" last year, quote, we will never change the name, it's that simple, never. you can use caps. of course it's easier to put promises in caps before you find out you could be in jeopardy of losing millions of dollars of merchandising fees down the line. so will this latest ruling have any impact on the future of washington's football franchise, or maybe the nfl in general? joining us now to discuss is the director of the smithsonian's national museum of the american indian, kevin gover and anita marks, a member of the new york giants broadcast team and a radio host with nbc sports. and, i should mention, a former pro football player herself, which is super cool. >> thank you. >> my daughter, ella, who is 6, is convinced that she will be the first female nfl player. >> sounds like me when i was 6. >> which is pretty cool. so tell us -- help us understand

what this ruling actually means in practical terms, and does it really put any pressure on washington's team? >> i don't think it really puts any pressure -- it doesn't put pressure on washington's team right now. i think this is going to be a long drawn-out process. i think this is going to go to the supreme court. i think dan snyder is going to spend a ton of money, maybe 7, $8 million with trademark attorney fees where eventually, maybe, if this does pass, the problem is going to be financial. the washington redskins make anywhere between -- forbes estimates that the washington redskins make between $70 million to $80 million a year in merchandising. so that's where this is -- removing the trademark, that's where it's going to hurt them. but i think it's going to be a lengthy process. >> so this is another piece of pressure. i mentioned, kevin, that we had the members of the u.s. congress sending a letter saying it needs to be changed. i think public opinion, which has frankly always been on the side of keeping the redskins

name, i think that that is changing as people think about the fact that in polite conversation, you would never call someone a redskin. to me that tells you everything you need to know about this name. >> yeah, i agree with that. the decision of the trademark office is just another step in the process. what was most important about it to my eye was the detail that the board went into in rebutting all of the arguments that the team has been making about why this is not a racist term, why this is not a disparaging term. and just rejecting them in no uncertain terms. so once again, this confirms what we've been saying all along. this is a racial slur. it shouldn't be used in common conversation. >> i think that it's a matter of time, eventually they're going to have to make a change. >> hopefully. >> but have they sort of missed the boat in being the good guys in this story and doing the right thing? >> i teach a sports business

class at nyu on thursday and this was a big topic in my class. one of the students brought it up and said don't you feel that dan snyder is missing the boat here, because we are a positive brand kind of connotation when it comes to sports in our society. >> and i think becoming more so. >> and i'll use examples. you've got jason collins who came out as the first homosexual gay nba player. his jersey that week was the number one selling nba jersey. michael sam, first gay nfl player. his jersey, number two highest selling rookie jersey in the nfl. we as a sports society, as a society in general, we love those positive brand connotations. i do believe that dan snyder is missing the boat here. if he was to change the name, kind of aim that moral compass in the right direction, maybe they would make more than $70 million, $80 million in merchandise. >> kevin, i tell you i grew up in virginia, i'm a long time, long-suffering, i should say, redskins fan. for me as a fan it's embarrassing. i don't want to tweet about the team, i don't want to use the

name. i wish they would change it. i think more and more fans are feeling that way. native american activist suzanne harjo who has been pushing the using offensive native american imagery across the country had this to say. we've made tremendous progress. there are a little over 3,000 of these types of names in 1970, and now there are just a little over 900. we've eliminated over two-thirds of these racist stereotypes in american sports the. do you think it's only a matter of time for washington's team to join the modern century? >> absolutely. i would never disagree with suzanne harjo. she is the leading activist on this subject. it is in no small part because of all the work she's done over the years. part of what's going on and, again, the trademark board's ruling contributes to this.

as people come to know better, they do better. and here i take it for granted that most people who support this team, especially in the past, and as you grew up supporting the team, it never occurred to them that this might be offensive. >> yeah. >> as people learn that it is, as our society progresses, as certain words fall into disuse, things change. and i think that's what's happening here. and if i could, let me just say, i don't think it's too late for mr. snyder to be on the right side of this. the it would be a shame for him to end up going down in history as the guy who was the last man standing for this sort of thing. >> we still believe in you, dan the the you can still do the right thing. go ahead, anita. >> just real quick, what we saw happening with the los angeles clippers and how that team, the players stepped up and were against the owner. how about if rg3 or some of the washington redskins players were to step up and say, dan, this isn't right. >> public pressure and player pressure.

>> player pressure, i think that needs to happen, too. >> all right. we'll have to leave it there. thank you to kevin gover and nbc sports radio's anita marks. so what do we know now that we did not the know last week? our answers after this. spokesperson: the volkswagen passat is heads above the competition, but we're not in the business of naming names. the fact is, it comes standard with an engine that's been called the benchmark of its class. really, guys, i thought... it also has more rear legroom than other midsize sedans. and the volkswagen passat has a lower starting price than...

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i want to find out what my guests know now that they did not know when the week began. david? >> what i know now is amc network has a new show called "the walking dead" the neoconversion. the neocon zombies are back with the iraq are war. we can't kill them no matter what they did wrong. they have airtime and a whole new series. >> i do not want to watch that series. patrick? >> i think that was fox, actually, not amc. tomorrow is the 70th anniversary of the original g. iflt bill that helped build our middle class after world war ii and the post-9/11 has helped 1.1 million americans. we'll talk it tomorrow on "watching the hill." >> tomorrow, on monday, the

president, first lady, and buy ten tens will be there to support working families. policies that really help working families in this country. so follow along. >> you are such a good spokesperson. i want to thank all of you so much, david corn with mother jones and former congressman patrick murphy and of course emily with the center for american progress. thank you all for getting up. and earlier this week i suggested maybe hillary clinton could be the democrats' mitt romney. tomorrow we will have someone on who is going to try to challenge me on that. coming up next is "melissa harris-perry." one year since the supreme court up-ended the voting rights act. and still the struggle for ensuring the right to vote in america continues. that and, of course, much, much more with melissa next. we will see you right here tomorrow at 8:00. thank you for get iting up.

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this morning my question, what are the coke brothers hoping to buy for $25 million? plus, 50 years after freedom summer, the fight for the vote continues. and legendary organizer bob moses is coming to nerd land. but first, all bets are off when it comes to what happens next in iraq. good morning. i'm melissa harris-perry, and this morning we have these dramatic new images out of baghdad. a military parade of thousands of shia mill ib yeah marched through the streets of the city raising second ttarian tensions fighting between extremist sunni militants and the iraq government threatens to push the country into civil war. on thursday we learned h