the same kind of lies they told about limiting smog, soot... and acid rain. they're fighting against energy efficiency measures that... would lower your bills. just to protect their profits. washington: tell polluters to stop the lies and clean up... their act. good morning. do you really need to buy your baby so much stuff? plus, the director, but, first, the politics of parenting. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. tomorrow american families and the workplace will be the talk of the town in the nation's

capital as the white house summit on working families gets under way in washington. the summit will bring together people from across the country, business owners, economists, labor leaders, activists and ordinary citizens all of whom have a stake in how work places better support working families. mothers who work will be the special focus of the summit reflecting the expanding role in the economic security of families. president obama convened the summit with the goal of identifying policy solutions to help americans find balance between work and family. as he told a group of small business owners this week, it's a struggle with which even the obama household has been very familiar. >> michelle talks about how when she worked that university of chicago hospital, her first interview she brought sasha into the meeting with the ceo. she just wanted to see her and see how he would respond. sasha was still in the bassinet, the car seat thing.

and because her point to her employer was, this is who i am. >> back in 2007, when the obamas sat down for an interview with "60 minutes" it was clear that the job was no picnic. >> obama had to persuade his wife to let him run. political campaigns make her feel like a single mother. >> has it put strains on the marriage from time to time? >> oh, no. >> absolutely it has. >> as the first family, the obamas continue to be an example of how working families make it work. most conpickiospicuously making f. her mother moved in to help maintain a sense of normalcy while the girls transitioned into their new lives. supporting working parents was

at the forefront of mrs. obama's mind when she made advocating for paid sick leave and maternity leave. expanded protections to be inclusive of all families by extending the family medical leave act or fmla benefits to married same-sex couples. the new rules would allow eligible workers in same-sex marriages to take time off of work to care for a spouse, even if they don't lib in a state that recognizes their marriages. joining me today is ellen bravo, executive director of family values at work and assistantdry professor at polytech school of engineering and director of the program in medicine, health and society and professor of psychiatry at vanderbilt university joy reid. thank you, all, for being here.

so, ellen, let me start with you. i know you will actually be speaking at the summit tomorrow, between the president and maria sclooir shriver, which is extraordinary. what would you say in that moment about the state of working families today? >> we know that many more women are working and many more men want to be involved fathers, but the truth is the very thing that makes you a good parent could cost you your paycheck or your job. 40% of the workforce doesn't have a single paid work day and only 12% get paid leave. if you want an economy who works for everyone, then we have to guarantee at least minimum standards for everyone and that means policies like paid sick leave and family leave insurance. >> i want to underline that so people don't think you're overselling that point the thinks that could make you a good parent could cost you your job. you worked with talking about her experience of losing her job as a result of her child being out of school in chicago because

of the cold. let's take a listen. >> i had a shift that was on one of those days where it was really cold and the chicago public schools decided to close the schools. and so i had to exhaust all my resources that i had for child care that day. the night before i called and let them know. i literally had no one to watch my son. or pay to watch my son. and i couldn't make my shift and the next day they called me and told me that i abused the attendance policy and so they let me go. >> carman, how do we make a difference. we talk work/family balance. either i stay at home with my child or i go to work. >> in other countries they know the value of the economic value of taking care of children and

providing child care when you have women, majority of women now in this country who work and you can support them and they don't maybe have a partner at home who can help. if you put some money into taking care of children, i know we're going to hear all of this, how can we put up another entitlement program and we're not a pack of wolves that leave the runts out to die. how can we sustain our economy? if women are such a big part of the economy and growing and education, in terms of education, we have to support the ability to have families and provide for those families. if costs you a lot more to find another employee than it will cost you to take care of that child if there's a sick day or a snow day. >> look, having worked in circumstances of great privilege. so, for example, when i was at princeton university, we had a coverage system so if you woke up and your child was sick and you had a class that day, you could call and they would send someone over as short-term care. even if you were elder and your

parent was sick in another state, we know it works but only a safety net to those of most privileged. >> there's this thing in the subbsu suburbs and a teaching planning day where for lower income parents are the most stressful thing ever. if you leave your child home alone, like when i was a kid, we were home on our own. you can get in huge trouble and arrested and major trouble, but if you try to take a day off and your job doesn't allow it, you could lose your job. so, i think that we're structuring a system where only privileged parents have the latitude to ever take a day off, even when a child is sick. i remember growing up with a single mother, we would try to go to school anyway because we didn't want my mom to get in trouble at work. we would go to school, but at that time, you had a nurse in school. >> and then there's consequences to that. i wonder, you know, as i was

kind of thinking, jonathan, what would a policy agenda for working families and women look like and i was write down minimum wage, gun control because of the issue of domestic violence, immigration reform because of the need to keep working families together, labor union organizing capacity and none of those are like traditional women's issues. how do we get that discourse into our policy discussions? >> well, it seems like a tremendous need and a tremendous desire for it. i just want to mirror what everybody else is saying that a lot of laws governing laws and employment come out of a don draper economy where men were the primary bread winners and women stayed at home. the nature of work has changed dramatically in the last 50 years or 60 years but our labor laws have not changed at all. in a way, it turns out that societies that make that shift better that allow for flexibility and co-parenting and

gender equity do oa lot better than we're doing right now by a whole host of indicators. everything from children who are in poverty, much better in scandinavia, issues like that. in a way, this is not just about nostal jaw for the man but our society and our children will do a lot better if we can change these laws. >> stick with me, when we come back we'll talk about the fact that politicians target groups like moms and dads and how can we get those targets to end up getting the policies they need, when we're back. we're moving our company to new york state. the numbers are impressive. over 400,000 new private sector jobs... making new york state number two in the nation in new private sector job creation...

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so we know the political world loves to target parents as parents as we start thinking about politics. remember, 1996, soccer moms.

soccer moms are going to tell the story of why clinton is going to get backing. remember 2003 was security moms. this story from "time" magazine saying good-bye soccer mom, hello security mom. nascar dads, espn telling us that nascar dads could provide the swing vote and as recently as 2012 waitress moms. the idea that waitress moms, moms working for minimum wage would be ethe key to that year's elections. we know they target moms and dads as moms and dads and can we get the policies we actually need. >> we're winning in the cities and states and we're bringing a bunch of leaders tomorrow and they're turning their pain and hardship of their own experiences into the power of wins and some politicians are smart enough to realize these are not good policies, they're good politics. even republicans and certainly independents and way high

numbers of unmarried women and moms and you want to get elected. you want to keep your job and the good news is that we have some stories to tell, like in new york city, where a person who was a shoo-in for mayor but blocked paid sick days for three years got 15% of the vote and the guy that said not only do i support this, i am going to make it better, he's the one who won. >> the language of universal pre-k was relevant to new york parents and i wonder because universal pre-k sounds like a parent issue. when will parents in republican-led states that denied the aca medicaid expansion recognize, we are talking about sick days as if we're squus talking about the normal illnesses of childhood, which is part of it. medicaid expansion is the more critical aspect. >> the real irony eis the states denying the medicaid expansion is the poorest states where rural hospitals are going to

close. this is that point where you have to choose between your ideology and survival. you're start tog see in states like georgia where you had the republican plmayor or north carolina where they stood up and say, we do need to expand where you have now actually in louisiana david vitter saying, i might consider expanding medicaid because this is now literally an issue of dollars and cents where working families paying their fico taxes not able to get health care and domino effect that will shut down hospitals. >> i live in tennessee and i get a lot of people are anti-government. this is a place i totally agree with joy's point. the notion that you're just kind of left to fend for yourself. this is a place where government is actually helpful. setting kind of policies that protect families. standing up and enabling business but setting limits and worker voice and a place where unions are very helpful. the institutions that are traditionally helpful for family

are the ones being undercut particularly in states in a way need the most and i think it's creating a lot of anxiety about people who are left to fend for themselves and their families. >> joy's point of ideology. we're at a time where we are so, so set apart by these beliefs in government or nongovernment, right? that it cuts across the fact of being a parent. being a parent, being a mom. if you want to address a group of waitresses, a lot will depend on where they live, where they wait tables. there's all this carving out. if somebody can come in and make it about that issue and not about government or no government, really, this is the reality of being a parent and cut across all the ideology. that will be like the pre-k and be the cuck ses. >> it is going to feel like that all day. a lot to say. seriously, coming up, i want to talk about how babies are making it rain for corporate america to the tune of $23 billion. [ female announcer ] hands were made for playing.

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if you followed along with us when we launched the nerd land scholar challenge investigated the historical and contemporary ways that mothers merged motherhead with political and social action. the woman's whose tragic loss to a drunk driver to found mothers against drunk driving. shannon watts the mother of five who the day after the school shootings in newtown, connecticut, started a facebook page known as moms demand action for gun sense in america which has grown to a national nonprofit with tens of thousands of members and more than 80 chapters across the country. here i have spoken with the spokesperson since the shooting death of her son, jordan davis. she has taken her mission to end gun violence all the way to capitol hill. she has been joined in that mission by another one of my previous guests, sabrina

faulten. the mother of trayvon martin to push for the repeal of stand your ground laws. all of these are examples as through the role of mothers and sometimes the loss of that role discover their political identities and the power to push their government for change. joining us now from boston is assistant professor of politics jill greenly. she literally wrote the book on this topic, the political consequences of motherhood. nice to have you, jill. >> thanks for having me. >> tell me, in your research what changes politically for women when they become mothers? >> i identify two different dynamics that take place. first, when women become mothers there is kind of a liberal tug on some issues and these issues are specifically things connected to social welfare. so, for example, when women become mothers, they often become more of the funding for food stamp programs or funding for job programs. on the other hand, however, i also find that there's a conservative tug, as well. so, on issues that are connected

to kind of moral issues and things are often linked to children in politics we see more conservative. so, for example, women become more supportive of school prayer when they become mothers and mothers less supportive of legalizing marijuana when they become mothers. >> are women aware of this change or are you just sort of tracking it in their public opinion responses? >> that's a great question. the results that i just shared with you come from public opinion responses. so, people are just telling us how they feel about these issues. when i actually went out and spoke to mothers about how motherhood may have changed their political views, they, they actually told me a very different thing, which is, many of them said that even though they felt their attitudes didn't necessarily change their perspective on politics changed. so, for example, they thought more about political out comes in the long terms. so, thinking about generations from now, what will the environment be like or what will

the national debt be like? women also said things, for example, that they thought more about local issues. and this is something that in the political science research we see great evidence of that when women become mothers, they become more connected to local politics and more concerned about schools and tend to engage more politically at that level, as well. >> jill, hold for me for just one second. ellen, so much of your work seeing parents in their role and what are the key policy changes you see parents and particularly moms asking for? >> in our case paid sick days and living wage and predictable schedules. the chicago woman whose tape you showed she said at the end of the tape i'm doing this so my son will be proud of me and i'm doing this so other single moms feel like, yes, we can stand up and do something. i want to say, though, before,

if this isn't about workers versus business, they do this because it's the right, as well as the smart thing to do. but, also, they know that it's not about what size government, but whose side government is on and these mothers want government to be on their side. >> on this idea of government being on your side, i want to play for you, jill, because i don't want to leave dads out here that for me one of the most powerful moments recently came from a father who just lost his son in that recent california massacre. let's take a listen to him for a moment. >> why did chris die? chris died because of craven, irresponsible politicians and the nra. they talk about gun rights. what about chris' right to live. when will this insanity stop? when will enough people say stop this madness? >> now, jill, the level of

emotion occurring there. it's hard to imagine both in that context and in post-newtown that we have parents activated as parents on this issue and yet so little has happened in terms of actual legislation action. does that sort of role work as a political strategy? >> well, i mean, that's a great question. i think when it comes to looking at successful activist efforts, there's no imperical evidence that shows framing an issue in terms of parenthood versus not is more persuasive or powerful or brings about better outcomes. we can look at a long history of political activism and see again and again parenthood is a way of framing public policy concerns and activists efforts and the longevity of that frame, particularly women invoking motherhood and political claims, i think that has got to say something about how effective it is. and, of course, my work is

looking at every day citizens and their political attitudes and the other issue is how parenthood affects people as activists and how it engages people to engage in politics that are extraordinary. so, not just voting, but marching. and that's sort of a separate issue. >> jill, i thank you for joining us and also thank you for writing the book because i'm going to teach a parenting and politics class in the spring and now i have a book for it. thank you to ellen bravo and thank you for going tomorrow to the white house and being a voice there. everyone else is sticking around. when we come back, what carrie washingtca kerri washington can teach us about the pressures of being a new mom. at humana, we believe if healthcare changes, if it becomes simpler... if frustration and paperwork decrease... if grandparents get to live at home instead of in a home... the gap begins to close. so let's simplify things.

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new mom offered some reprieve from the pressure to slip easily to a single-digit size. with how quickly women can eliminate any trace of pregnancy from fair figures. very excited when kerry washington made her first public appearance since giving birth to her daughter, predictability the first comments were about how stunning she looked. i think we desire to live really full lives. i think we have to honor that as best we can. whatever shape that takes. this past sunday was the first birthday of baby north and one baby couldn't help but point out that her 56-pound weight loss was as much a reason to celebrate as her daughter's birthday. the perfect mom not only meant to instantaneously fit into a small dress, also effortlessly meant to balance work, partnership and community service. thank goodness some are speaking

up on how unrealistic that expectation is. this is shaunda rhimes discussing work and motherhood during her recent commencement address at her alma mater, dartmouth. >> shonda, how do you do it all? answer is, i don't. whenever you see me succeeding in one area of my life, that almost certainly means i am failing in another area of my life. if i am killing it on a "scanda "scandals" script for work i am missing bath time at home. joining the panel, an actor and a humorous who is also the author of "i see you made an effort and survival stories from the edge of 50." how is this meant to be what we have to do? >> come on, stop. you know this because of the whole television thing, right? so, when i had my daughter a

year and a half after i got my show on cnbc and all i heard was the buzz from the background, she's 7 1/2, the ten pounds are still here and they're not going anywhere and i work out with a trainer three times a week. so, i am strong and healthy. however, i got priorities. i'm a single parent raising a daughter with a business. this is the way it is. for me, i have to say, this is a very much a cultural issue and it makes me kind of nuts. there's a real assumption you can go like this, all the time. however, in the culture that i was raised, lutina culture, this is what happens when you have a baby because we're not all of that stuff and means that we take care of our family and it doesn't mean that you're a bad women if you shrink back into whatever you're wearing. >> and it's a real thing. even when you talk about the working out. i'm writing a column for "essence" and my july column on newsstands the expectations to

shed the pounds. i didn't actually have my kid and the notion that we're meant to go back into the prepregnancy clothes claimed that breast feeding made the pound fall off and going up a dress size is a crude reminder that balancing work, parenting and travel is hard and it feels embarrassing. the fact that it is hard is embarrass to me. >> i love what shonda rhimes said. if i can't have it all, i can have it some. i know every part of my life is interconnected. something is going to be sacrificed. i never had a waist to begin with, so, i never got my waist back. my son is 16 and i still have that extra weight. i have a different idea of whether it's media driven or something else. so, i know, after i had my son i went on the zone diet. right? i was hosting dinner and a movie at that time and what happened is the very first week, the

first day i called them after i ate my meals and i said, i think you haven't delivered the rest of the day's meals. no, i ate everything for breakfast. the snack they gave me was a peanut and a half. i was like, what? this is it? it wasn't, i don't think, the media driving me, my own idea. what you said, the internalization, i think, that has to do with, this is what i think my theory is. second way feminism that told us that we could do it all. >> jonathan, i want you to jump in on that one because you have some research around that one. >> my first book looked at how it's not just internal but business practices that play to the anxieties that we're talking about. psychology attacking parents and playing to the politics of motherhood in a particular way. for example, in the 1960s and 1970s when first way feminism

was coming out and a host of advertisements and psychiatric journals that said if you're a protesting feminist or being a bad mother, here's some valium that your doctor can prescribe to you. >> you sent us this one that being 35 and single was representative that you clearly need balance. it was literally an ad two positions saying if you got one of these clients, 35 and single woman, make sure you get her some valium. >> that comes from the leading psychiatric journal in the world and it comes right out after a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. the same things we're talking about on the show today. >> you internalize, this message. in my book i see you made an effort, which is about aging. i talk about how i grew up from a message from clariol. it turns out, i might not be getting older, i'm getting better. >> because we should always listen to beyonce for a moment. one moment immediately after a

mekongsert. let's listen for a second. oh, i'm sorry, we don't have beyon beyonce. but what she said, she said, you all have no idea how hard i worked. i had to lose 60 pounds and they had me on the treadmill and now tonight i'm going to get chocolate wasted. if you're on a treadmill and eats lettuce do you know how hard, you are hungry and tired and it does feel like it's connected to the idea of, let's keep women worried about their dress size and not about their politics. >> my oldest child is 19 and i have been blaming my weight on my xidz for 19 years. it's your fault and you know why i can't lose it? because i have three kids and a job and i have a trainer and i haven't seen him in months. >> this is very much to the point of pharmaceuticals, a multi-billion dollar industry that is selling you on the same page that kim kardashian losing all that weight and, moms,

here's the new weight loss tea you can have and that this is a way of keeping us under control. >> unrealistic. if you measure your way to lose a baby who has a chef and a trainer and who has the time, you're literally making your life -- exactly. >> and, also, sometimes it's not even that. but sometimes some women have, some folks may just, in fact, display something different. but the extent to that then which becomes the norm of a valuable parent. up next a billion dollar business in bringing up baby. just how much is that stroller in the window? yep, that one. we'll talk about it when we get back.

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something magical happens when you become a new mom, you become a target, a target for a $23 billion baby product industry. some items you'll actually need, diapers and a car seat. depending on your income a car seat that can range from $50 to $350 and diapers that could cost upwards of $100 a month can be pretty pricy but you'll just have to have them. all those items that eric, my executive producer and dad to. 3-year-old lucy, you don't need that. you probably have bags that carried things other than diapers. i know, i know, it has compartments. but whether it's the $29.99 version from the big box store or the $500 version from a fancy designer, your baby don't need that. fancy brain building toys. u.s. baby toy sales exceeded $487 billion sales last year. but they love the boxes in which the toys arrive and the best brain builder is you.

facetime with engaging parents and keytakers is the key. so leave most of that stuff in the store. your baby don't need that. baby shoes. now, if you have plenty of extra income. feel free to purchase baby shoes for decorations for your nursy. your babies don't walk, they don't need shoes, at least not right away. finally $800 phone charging self-folding strollers. i didn't know such things existed. spending my weekend in manhattan i take my daughter out in her car seat snapped to a plastic frame with wheels and some give me the eye that i'm abusing the child. jaw-dropping accessories and your baby don't need that. if you have big dollars, you'll get no judgment from nerdland. i don't want you to think you must have them to be a good

parent. at this moment i am going to demonstrate the $850 origami by four moms. if you look this is d.j. our intern and if you look with one touch. >> it's like a bentley. >> it's not that it's not amazing. it's amazing. it's beautiful. i want one and i don't even have a baby. >> now i want a baby. >> it's amazing. >> but can i tell you, i did the shoes. i bought my daughter, who is now 19, i bought her shoes that she wore literally after i could only squeeze the foot in there. by the time the third one came along, they were lucky to be in a onesie. because you learn over the course of the three kids. >> your baby don't need that, right? but i wonder because i certainly spent a lot of time in anticipation of a.j.'s birth on what to expect when you're expecting boards and you feel very vulnerable as a parent because they're telling you, your baby needs this or you're not a good parent.

>> the real cost of parenting. we're talking about in general, you know, $200,000, the cost of raising a child, the first couple years in the tens of thousands and let's be realistic, this is not about the baby, this is about us. we are buying status and we are being good consumers and we're getting pushed on and we really have pushers here and these are folks that really want to make a dime off of us. do we need that stroller? no. same thing we gave advice to everybody spending money. do you need it or want it. >> it's legitimately hard to hold the baby in one arm and fold the stroller and this is designed by four women who are themselves engineers who know if you can push the button and it goes down. >> that is fabulous. however, however, yes, no, it is uncomfortable and you know what innovation and ingenuity and we could have more and more and buy more. it's great. if you do not shop around and use coupon codes and find

something that's lesser, even like i used to do, you end up donating, you sell, you swap in your neighborhood, you're on neighborhood message boards. there is a million different ways. i love my shoes, too. i want my kid to look good. so, i do my research and find out what to get and i also can get things second hand. you have to do that. >> go. >> i just say, absolutely, i think we can all emps tathize w the desire to do the best thing. your child will be more healthy and i think there are two problems with this that i think this discussion is illustrating and one is really that, you know, i think that there is this idea that if you don't buy this thing, it is going to be bad for your child and bad health effect or something like that. in a way, we're making this very individual. at the same time we talked about earlier in the show, we're undercutting the social structure to help parenting on a communial level. you spend more of your

individual money and we're going to cut away from childcare and universal health and those are where we should be investing. >> at the same time, we're judging low-income mothers because of the judgment on them if their children don't have these things. >> low-income mothers one of the most pernicious things out there are these apps for babies. we know that -- >> you mean the screen times for the babies themselves. >> even big companies like fisher price now has 0 to 2 apps for them, right? and they're being sold at this keeps their baby engaged and we really know what that means is that when you're in a restaurant or any time your baby is crying, put them in front of the screen. now, the truth is, right, who is going to do that? i'm like that is so horrible and we know it's horrible and you know if you're less advantaged, you don't have anyone, you're a single mom and you're there with your kid and you can't control your kid. you don't have the time to soothe your kid, you put him in

front. >> i'm not convinced it is horrible. i think that notion of what constitutes horrible or not is part of the problem, right? because the idea is -- >> we don't need that for their brain health. >> they need that to sell these things to us. >> being good parent. >> everything needs to be black and white. kids see black and white better. always going to be some research or something that is going to say, this is why your kid needs to be put this way or shown these things. you have to be an informed parent and think about one thing. this is your money, your hard-earned money that you'll put into someone else's pocket. >> but i have to disagree with you. >> last word on this one. >> the other part for me is that, quite obviously, it also targets mothers very disproportionately. but my pharmaceutical book and i kept seeing ads about taking prozac because you can balance. i kept thinking, let's have a drug for fathers that is not viagra, let's have a drug for fathers that helps them balance

gender equity or something like that. >> take this pharmaceutical and be a good, feminine dad. >> exactly. >> jonathan and to joy, please be sure to watch "reid report" weekdays at 2:00 p.m. right here on msnbc. coming up, some called her movie and abortion comedy but the director of "obvious child" rejects that title the creative force behind one of the most talked about movies of the summer is at the table, next. into the air... and polluting the airwaves with lies. they're trying to overturn the epa's carbon pollution... standards by lying about electric bills. the same kind of lies they told about limiting smog, soot... and acid rain. they're fighting against energy efficiency measures that... would lower your bills.

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comcast business. built for business. my next guest says don't call it an abortion comedy. the new film "obvious child" is more than that and certainly does not make fun of termination. the official sundance film festival follows the

unapologetic donna stern as she navigates the ups and downs of life in a very real and raw fashion, especially when it comes to dealing with a breakup. take a look. >> hi, ryan. i don't know if you're getting my messages, but, i really would need to talk. sorry, i didn't hear the, i don't care about the beep. i am also sorry that you cannot get to the phone. >> joining me now on the table is gillian robespierre playing in select theaters nationwide. in this whole 2 1/2 hour of parenting the choice of being a parent has got to remain a choice. how is telling the abortion story this way a compelling way to do it?

>> well, we just wanted to tell it this way because we wanted to humanize choice and we wanted to do it through humor and jenny slate is a very funny person in real life and the character donna stern that we created for her is someone who is naturally funny and. whatever she goes through, big or small, whether it's being broken up with and humiliated in a public restroom or facing unplanned pregnancy, she's always going to inject herself and see her life with a little bit through a comedic lens. >> to talk about something as serious as life altering as abortion, something we tend to take so very seriously, is there kind of a critique of the notion of using comedy? the film itself is it funny and uncomfortable in a lot of ways. >> my co-creators and elizabeth holm and i were very thoughtful on how we wanted donna's voice to look and sound and she's not

sarcastic on or offstage. she plays a comedian in the movie. we were very, not careful, but we wanted the voice of donna to be somebody who was thoughtful and when she had moments of, she wasn't just telling jokes over, you know, like through the whole movie. i think there was some really nice, quiet moments where she's thinking about her life. >> it feels to me like on one of the issues that you all really drive home in this film is the idea that women's bodies and sexuality and pregnancy are all connected and it seems crazy to have to say that, but somehow just being able to talk in a fourth right way of one's bodily functions and how one's body operates and you realize how much the issue of abortion is in part because we do not feel comfortable talking about women's bodies in those ways. >> no, we don't. the first time i saw jenny perform standup she was talking about her formative years and

what our bodies are like when we're little girls and my co-creators and i were just so excited about what she was saying on that stage. we really related to it and i don't think it needs to be tabu. i think we can talk about our bodies in a very funny and realistic way and i think i really, you know, it's not scary to connect to an audience through humor. i think it's very natural. >> i was thinking about it a lot in part of the mom to daughters because part of the role of parenting is you have to bring your girls along and understanding what their bodies are so they are more familiar with their bodies than any partner later in life might be. you have to know yourself first. but i wonder if, in fact, parents often don't want to have conversations about this because of their fear what adult women's sexuality looks like and the idea of otheir daughters being there. does a narrative, humorous kind

of complicate film like that potentially even operate as a tool for moms and daughters to have conversations they might not otherwise have? >> my mom was great about it. she drew me ea diagram of my fallopian tubes to ovaries and laminated it because everything was laminated to my bus pass and we were really open about it and that's the starting point, at least for my mom and me and our story which was to not shy away from those moments where, you know, the moment where you have to tell your daughter that she has to wear deodorant for the first time. that is embarrassing to me. so was the idea of having to wear a bra. we made jokes and talked about it and there was no shame. >> i'm one of the shame-free moms. so, you grow up with that kind of mom, you have a laminated.

thank you for the film "obvious child" thank you for coming to chat with me about it. coming up next, the changing role of fathers. and the 21st century of where babies come from, including mine. no laminated uteruses, i promise. more at the top of the hour. ugh. heartburn. did someone say burn? try alka seltzer reliefchews. they work just as fast and taste better than tums smoothies assorted fruit. mmm. amazing. yeah, i get that a lot. alka seltzer heartburn reliefchews. enjoy the relief. (vo)cars for crash survival,ning subaru has developed our most revolutionary feature yet. a car that can see trouble... ...and stop itself to avoid it. when the insurance institute for highway safety

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whatever happened to good? good is choosing not to overshoot the moon, but to land right on it. good is maxwell house. ♪ good to the last drop i'm j-e-f-f and i have copd. i'm l-i-s-a and i have copd, but i don't want my breathing problems to get in the way of hosting my book club. that's why i asked my doctor about b-r-e-o. once-daily breo ellipta helps increase airflow from the lungs for a full 24 hours. and breo helps reduce symptom flare-ups that last several days and require oral steroids, antibiotics, or hospital stay. breo is not for asthma. breo contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma.

it is not known if this risk is increased in copd. breo won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden copd symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. breo may increase your risk of pneumonia, thrush, osteoporosis, and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking breo. ask your doctor about b-r-e-o for copd. first prescription free at mybreo.com welcome back, i'm melissa harris-perry. we have been talking about the white house summit. starting tomorrow on the challenges facing working families. if there's one thing the president has made clear throughout his time in office, fatherhood has been extremely important to him. >> i made a decision in young adulthood that it was going to be important for me to make sure that i was there for my kids. i've really tried to make sure

that i didn't miss parent/teacher conferences and i didn't miss the ballet recitals or the soccer games. i tried to be disciplined about if i'm in town being home for dinner every single night and i think it's made a difference. >> the definition of a good father is changing. gone are the days when fathers were assumed to be the soul financial providers and little else. but in this period of broad social change the role can be fuzzy. msnbc contributor t.j. holmes wrote for "the root." in the form of a letter to his daughter. i could barely provide food, much less provide the kind of home or nurturing you needed at the time. i tried to be a good daddy, i promise. i know i didn't try hard enough. my imaturity, selfishness and stew pidty. his second daughter was born a year and a half ago and how

fatherhood is valued when a mother and father don't live together. more than 80% of the time it's the mothers who have primarily, physical custody of their children. joining us now in new york is msnbc contributor t.j. holmes and carmen professor at polly tech school of engineering and annabel and actor and humorist who is also the author of "i see you made an effort survival stories from the edge of 50." and joining us today from at lanta is mark hudson, a father of one inspired by his own experience of trying to be a good noncustodial dad after divorce and working on a documentary film telling the stories of other noncustodial fathers and the challenges they face. nice to have you, mark. >> thanks, melissa, for having me on the show. a privilege and honor to be here. >> thank you. talk to me briefly about why you wanted to give noncustodial fathers an opportunity to talk

about what it meant for them to be good dads? >> well, i just wanted to give them a voice. like i said, i was married. we ehhad a child. during the marriage one of the primary care givers waking them up for school, giving them a bath, taking them to the park and things like that. after the divorce, all of a sudden, i couldn't do that any more. basically a judge told me that i could see him two weekends out of the month and i felt something was wrong with that. again, you can imagine the feelings that come with not being able to see your child when you want to. so, i started thinking of other people, other fathers who felt this way and that kind of spawned this whole interview thing with them talking to different fathers and we're feeling the same way. >> mark, stick with us, i thought that was so val yrbuabl t.j. i read your piece in advance of father's day and i chatted with

you about it last week. feels so important to me to sort of make public the ways in which father's emotional connections to their children are at least as and potentially much more important than their financial contribution. >> just as the problem in my case i didn't realize how bad of a dad i was until i realized how great of a dad i could be. at that age, 18, and so much of the issues we talk about with dads and fathers not being there. they are 18, 19, 20, 25, they're too young and imature to really understand what they're supposed to be doing. we talk about fatherhood. that's an extension of manhood. we have an extorted view of what manhood is in the first place. as he's talking about there. i put my daughter to sleep last night or i say i gave her a bath or woke her up and you change those diapers. you're the dad, i'm not supposed to do that. that is what mom does and dad does these other things.

>> one of my best friends in the world, her husband has been the dad who does the bathtime every night. i mean, forever. every time we tell that story, he's the best father. and i'm thinking when i bathe my child no one thinks that makes me a good mother. they think that's ordinary. almost a way when fathers participate almost a one plus that they give for that. >> chris rock has that joke where if a man and he can stay out of jail, he wants a medal. you're a good parent whether you're a father or a mother. we have this huge changing demographic. we have to shift our mentality around the fact that a parent is a parent and a person that it's not necessarily tied to gender. if you are a good father, you're a good parent and then you should be there you should be supportive and all those sort of things. but to really make it this kind of father, mother gender issue. to your point, i sat there and i gave the baths. that's being a dad. that's being a parent.

>> i want to say something kind of transgressive, though. we see so many changing roles in society right now. so, for instance, in my family and melissa, i think you relate to this, too. my husband and i, two working family. which means we're both exhausted at same time. there are times when i'm the primary earner and my husband is doing all the dad stuff. he's a fantastic dad. so, this is a little embarrassing, but the more dadding he does, the less sexy i find him. he got a job recently and in one second i, the minute he told me, i was like, oh, i want -- >> for me, quite the opposite. if i see james loading the dishwasher. so excited. take them dishes out. mark, let me come to you for a second. part of what your work is is also around the policy here and your sense, mark, that the courts are part of this. i don't want you, obviously, each case is its own think. but what would you from your own experience or from the experience of the men you talk

to, what would you have courts and public policy do differently as we think about the role of dads? >> just what you just said. just think differently about the role of fathers. i think that traditional definition of fatherhood is what we see is the father who's there, who takes their kids to school and who feeds them and puts them to bed at night. the fathers who i talk to, they don't have the opportunities to do that. and say, you know, during visitation when the other parent doesn't show up and you don't get your child for that weekend. the only recourse you have is to call the police to have that visitation validated. but then when you call the police, they say, we can't handle that because of civil case. your only recourse is to go file a motion in court, but that doesn't resolve the issue of you don't have your child for that weekend. so, i think the court system needs to make a concerted effort to realize and recognize that

the fathers do go through this on almost a daily basis. >> let me back out a little bit, too. even when you're not in a consenshs situation and i get it. i have both been a divorced single mom and i'm in the circumstance with a great dad, my husband who is now really the primary child care provider. even when you're not in a contentious situation, tj, you can't be there to do that if you don't have parental leave. so, we remember when dan murphy took parental leave. i want to see dan murty talking to willie geist on "today" show on how important that was for him. >> one of the first solo diapers i had was day off in new york. i text tory and i said it's boy's day, no girls allowed and that was just me and him. wandering the streets of new york. >> how did you do? >> he's still breathing. >> did you have any second thoughts of leaving and go and be at the side of your son and your wife? >> no, that never crossed my mind or her mind. >> so, you know t was a

reminder, though, when all of that blew up. dads don't get parental leave to change that first diaper and have a boys day in new york. >> it defers to the mother as being, you know, it should be in a lot of ways, but a dad doesn't get paternal leave. a dad doesn't get these things that a mother does get. so, we have a system set up that a guy who maybe wants to be the good dad that he wants to be isn't allowed to do so. in every situation, of course, is different but you, the part that i wrote about in that piece is so difficult. you want to be this good dad but in certain situations like that, you can't be a good dad no matter what you do. my mother always told me you do all that you do and no one helps you and consoles you. all you can do. you're doing everything, but that's not enough. my daughter and i haven't lived in the same city since i was in college. constant contact, but that's still not matter what.

and that's very, very difficult for a lot of men. >> when you're holding babies is when you feel that. stick with us, everybody. as we go out, i am going to play one of my favorite good dad moments. it is the moment of president obama doing his baby whisperring. marc hudson in atlanta, thank you for your work. i hope you get it started so you can finish up your documentary and i appreciate you bringing a different perspective for us. and let's take a look at president obama being his baby wisperrer self- >> you okay, baby? oh, no. oh! >> can i get a quick picture? >> come on, baby. >> oh, there's the girl.

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our next guest is a father of two and a sociologist who decided it put his training to work in raising his two kids. by, for example, giving them unique names, partly because according to studies, it would make them more likely eto have impulse control and impulse control is a great predictor of socioeconomic success. his daughter's name is e, just the letter e and his son his book parentology. everything you wanted to know about the science of raising children but were too exhausted to ask. like bribing his children to pass their math test or exposing them to raw sewage and a monkey to build up their immune systems.

joining us live from los angeles is author and professor, dalton connelly. so nice to have you. >> thanks for having me, melissa. >> i know your work really in terms of the kind of soclogical and reading this book has been so much fun because i have seen you using those same skills on your kids. how bad have you messed your kids up? >> you have to have them on to answer that. i'm sure they would say a lot since they are teenagers now. but i totally agree with all the comments of your panelists earlier the message of the book is keep trying try out different things and, most important, really kids in today's technical inequality and they really need every advantage they can get. they need both parent co-r co-resident involving.

bribing them to do math or whatever it takes because we live in a different economy than you and i grew up in where we can turn out okay, i think. >> that feels like such an important point to me because that happens all the time in this kind of inner generational moment. we didn't have car seats, everything was fine. stop helicopter parenting and it seems like beyond any sort of specific parenting recommendation, what your book is saying is the ineequality is so troubling that the only thing our kids have is us pushing like crazy and that really worries me because that feels like the gap will be even more so for kids who don't have parents with the resources to push, push, push. >> i'm living that story right now. what is the answer, dalton. what do you say? >> well, we know some of the answers, for example, you already mentioned a couple of them that we're the only rich industrialized nation that does not have mandated, paid parental leave for either parent for that matter. you know, we don't have a lot of

policies that other countries have that do support this kind of involved parenting. that's the big picture. you know, we also are the most unequal country in the entire world. those are not easy things to fix. also small fixes, so, for example, out here in l.a. there was an experiment where they just something that was totally free. they just had a text message come to parents, this was in a very low-income disadvantaged community, mostly of immigrants where they inform parents when their kid was missing. immediately, if they didn't hand it in that day they would get a text message, your kid didn't do their homework. that increased the kid's performance and attendance and the kid's everything with no cost. and, you know, a lot of liltal f fixes but we need big fixes. >> i would love to know, dalton, have your kids petitioned to change their names yet? has it happened? >> i actually -- >> your son made that name up.

>> my son added the more crazy names himself, he was 4. my daughter, i thought she could choose what it stood for. by now, she's 16, she'd be so embarrassed by us that she would have picked ellen or elizabeth or elaine or something very traditional and instead she embraced it. she wants to drop her last name. >> so tj, your name is not tj, it also is not like thomas james -- >> not at all. >> people don't know this. the t and j stand for nothing. i don't think i have ever said this on the air anywhere throughout my career. my full name is lutillious holmes jr. >> you know, what it did, i didn't get a chance to use it until i was 18 because they call me t. or little t. t. jr. is my family name. my first three times on tv i

signed off the first story as lutillias holmes and third was tj holmes. n >> i'm curious about this impulse control issue. i thought i read recently that a child that had an easy to pronounce name had a better chance of success. so, i'm a little confused what the impulse control link is and what about this issue of having an easy to pronounce name. clearly, tj has been easier. >> no one can pronounce my name. >> ethnicity here. one thing to have a difficult name and another name that signals latino identity. >> or chinese and germen and what are you and all of that. >> what is the impulse control, dalton? what is that about? >> the idea, this is a theory, but they do have data that shows

that a kid, i think you're right that we have to distinguish between names that mark you as a racial or ethnic other versus names that are just weird. and in terms of the weird names, kids get teased. probably less than when we were kids, but they still get teased and they have to learn how to deal with that. that's an important skill in life and that's the theory, at least, because they do show that kids with unusual names, these days, at least. very small eeffect, but they tend to have a small advantage over kids who have typical or normal names. what i notice with my own kids give them a sense of notoriety in their own schools. everyone knows who they are. >> dalton conely, i hope when you're back in new york you join our panel. >> thank you. >> lutilius holmes. thank you. >> for everyone at home who wants to get a little more tj in

their life and who doesn't, he'll be back later to anchor the 3:00 hour right here on msnbc. also this programming note, be sure to tune in to msnbc tomorrow morning for "morning joe" where you will see mika brzezinski's interview with president obama on the white house summit on working families. up next for us, more than 1,000 women want to ask the white house one thing about my brother's keeper initiative. i spent my entire childhood

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hager that's part of why he launched, my brother's keeper. >> the truth is that a lot of young men of color aren't doing well partly because they don't have dads in their lives. partly because they don't have networks of support. >> as laudable as the intentions of the program are, my brother's keeper has come under severe criticism, including right here on this program. two weeks ago we told you about a letter from 200 african-american men to president obama describing the need for us to be our sister's keeper, too. now, women and more specifically women of color are asking what about our daughters? their call is for the administration's program to be more inclusive. more than 1,000 women have written their own letter. among the more recognizable signatures, alice walker, rosario dawson and anita hill. their need to acknowledge the crisis facing boys should not come at the expense of addressing the stunted opportunities for girls who live

in the same households and suffer in the same schools and struggle to overcome a common history of limited opportunities caused by various forms of discrimination. the white house and specifically the head of the white house council on women and girls valerie jarrett sites the fair pay act and the creation of the white house council on women and girls as proof of the administration paying attention to women of color. but for those whose scholarship and organizing has long emphasized the unique intersections of race, gender and class, it may not be enough to point to a gender specific race program for boys and a race neutral gender program for girls. women and girls of color face unique circumstances and challenges and while we are keeping our brothers, it is worth asking what about our daughters? up next, more talk about our daughters, in particular, my daughters and how they entered this world and the complicated billion dollar business of baby making. when you run a business, you can't settle for slow.

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these are my daughters. parker and a.j. born 12 years apart, both girls are biologically mine but their birth stories are very different. i had parker at 28 and was pregnant within a month of deciding to try and natural labor. a.j.'s story is very different. shortly after a.j. was born we tweeted this picture of our first moments together and minutes after her birth and i'm standing in the hospital hallway with blue jeans and t-shirt. there were tons of well wishing headlines about my adoption and even a hilarious twitter exchange in which show watchers swore i had been pregnant and carried it well. no, i'm not sure, thanks for that, but i'm not sure that i ever plan to share our whole story, but when we saw the misinformation online, i knew i wanted to explain that a.j. had come to us through surrogacy. like all women, i have a right to privacy and to ignore that

surrogacy was the pathway to this new life would mean writing a.j.'s gestational carrier out of the story and that's not acceptable for us. as i wrote about it for msnbc.com. in 2008 after suffering from uterine fibroidz i decided to have them removed and we knew i couldn't carry a child and we turned to surrogacy. we refer to her as our miracle and she is, but plenty of science involved in this pregnancy. months of medications to suppress ovulation and sync cycles and rounds of powerful medications and weeks of belly and hip injections and daily doctor visits to track progress and the less than fun experience of harvesting my eggs. thenfort luization in a lab and how many were suitable for transfer and then the transfer and then the dreaded two-week wake who every women who has endured an ibf cycle the longest 14 days of your life as you wait

to see if the second line appears. the medical process is accompanied by an extensive legal process full of papers and court appearances and lawyers. the bottom line, when successful, assisted reproductive technology feels miraculous. but whether it ends in happiness or frustration, reproductive technology is always expensive. according to the american society for reproductive medicine, the average price of an ivf cycle is $12,400 and that does not even include the pricy medication. a reputable agency, but not the one that handled my own experience the anticipated cost can range from 100 to $150,000. and only a tiny fraction compensates the woman who carries the pregnancy, most is spent on lawyers, doctors and insurance. since few insurance plans actually cover the cost of procedures paying for them is a real challenge. take shellie and brandon who in 2006 babyorbust.com to raise money for their ivf procedures.

in '09 they had a beautiful baby girl, you can still follow their parenting adventures online. here we are in a brave new world where science seems to make impossible dreams come true, but always at a cost. both emotional and financial. joining me now is tonya, author of "the big lie motherhood feminism and the reality of the biological clock." still with us carmen author of "the real cost of living." what is the big lie? >> many big lies. one is that we can do things on our own time table. another big lie, we can manipulate evolution and another big lie, we don't have to choose between work and family. and a big lie that i talk a lot about in the book that we don't need feminism any more. >> tell me, start with the time table one. when you say that's a lie, this notion that we can just sort of have kids whenever we want, what is it we're being misinformed about? >> not that the information

isn't out there, so many confusing and conflicting messages out there. we have a crisis of sex education in this country. you know, only 22 states in the country that mandate sex education and of those only 12 require that the information is accurate. we have kids being taught abstinence only and we have a lot of people, even though they might know after 35 their fertility decreases they don't know how steeply and i'm guilty of that. i didn't know. you know, i didn't educate myself and nobody told me. >> so, on the one hand, i, you know, sharing the story for me was important. i want people to know how our daughter was born because we're not ashamed of how it happened. on the other hand, carmen, i recognize that our ability to engage in this was, first of all, that it worked is still, this is why we call it a miracle even though a ton of science involved, but also the financial costs are enormous and that not every family has the same set of

options, the same menu available to them and it does seem, almost like, oh, you can do it whenever. but, in fact, it's brutally expensive. >> women in their early 30s are freezing their eggs. >> which is expensive by itself. >> it is expensive, too. but in our cohort their parents were able to help them pay for their procedures. insurance, you mentioned, is not going to cover this. what about the complications of this. a dear friend who has a baby now but her ovary exploded because of the injections and she ended up in the emergency room. so many costs involved in what if, as mothers we know not a lot of rationalization when it comes to wanting a baby. you can jeopardize your finances. you brought up a good point in the break here of chances. what are the chances this is going to happen? there is still, not to be completely crass here, this is another consumer issue because

insurance does not cover, this is almost like, i'm not belittling it at all, plastic surgery in terms of a business with doctors. because they are compensated directly. so, you are mentioning over the age of 40, what are the odds of an ivf pregnancy? >> let me show you, under 35 an ivf success rate result in 40% under 35. but at over 44 an ivf success rate is about 1.1%. when you are writing a check -- 20 grand. $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 if you know it is 1%, you may make different choices. >> if you hear those are your odds of surviving cancer, you would be very depressed. made that statement about ivf. >> so, we talk about, i want to talk about same-sex couples in a moment. feminism. why is it we still need feminism.

oh, this is one of those scare tactics to get women to go have their babies in their 20s right because all of a sudden you're not going to be able to. >> people mistakenly blame feminism for the phenomenon of delaying motherhood. but really it is that nobody is to blame. advances in feminism dovetail with reproductive medicine. the first ivf baby was born in 1978. that's when feminism was coming into its own. i feel like women were encouraged to delay motherhood and pursue their careers and ambitions and it's not feminism's fault. but i feel like we're at this critical juncture where women were the guinea pigs for testing the limits, we're hitting our 40s and realizing that maybe some of us, well, some of us are successful and some of us may be delayed too long and not going to work out for us. >> can we not blame our ambition either because the social support is not there for us as mothers. for example, mothers putting off. i don't have enough money. i will continue working because i know that if i get sick what

is going to happen. if the social support was there, i don't think as many women would delay pregnancy. >> we're talking about it almost exclusively as a matter of choice. delaying and making choices and it struck me in the process of surrogacy and ivf that we were in a relationship with lots and lots of same-sex couples because for those couples, there isn't a choice, you're going to need assisted reproductive technology of some kind. it does feel to me like if we can move towards a policy that makes it, for example, covered under insurance for both same-sex and heterosexual couples, then we might be able to ease some of this. >> viagra is covered by insurance. so, that's all i need to say. >> well, covered under insurance and also that we ehave better education. i feel like there is a lot to gain by keeping women and men in the dark about what their chances actually are with these reproductive technologies. we need more awareness.

>> also important to know, one not be a parent to fully have a wonderful, inclusive, fabulous life, but we do want to be making it as a choice as much as we possibly can as opposed to accidentally. >> right now we have in america a situation where where you live and how much you make determines whether you can think it's feasible to pursue having a child. and i feel that that's an injustice because only 15 states in the country mandate some form of fertility coverage. >> we talk about reproductive rights. not only the right to terminate, which is an important right, but the notion to a right to reproduce. still to come this morning, jesse norman. but, next, we're going to nerd out in a whole new way over patents. change the r in parents to t. down a deep rabbit hole on this one. spokesperson: the volkswagen passat is heads above the competition,

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i kind of love to watch tv with my daughter, one of the ways that we spend some quality mother/daughter time and one of our favorite shows is not so much a traditional family sitcom that you might think of parents and kids bonding over. in our house friday night is all about "shark tank" not your typical family show but a show where hopeful entrepreneurs pinch ideas to self-made tycoons, aka, the sharks. who use their collective business to decide which ideas and innovations have what it take to make it big. one of the most important questions that they almost always ask to a new inventor is this. >> i'll ask you the natural question. is it patented? >> the patent's cleared. >> no patent, of course, yes? do you have a patent on the

design? >> why is that question so important? because in today's economy there is a lot of money in something called intellectual property. that is the patents and trademarks granted by the u.s. government that give companies exclusive rights to the use of their ideas and brands. in america, you can patent or trademark just about anything. whether it's something simple like a crustless pbj sandwich or a shirt that doubles as a habitat for live gerbils. you can trademark popular phrases that's hot or three-peat which is owned by pat riley. all these things can be protected because they're someone's intellectual property. but one thing that can't be patented or trademarked, racism. this week they announced their decision to cancel the washington, d.c., trademark on the grounds that the name is disparaging to native americans. a charge the team's owner has

consistently denied. this is the second time in the past 15 years that the same entity has attempted to strip the washington football team of its federal trademark protections and there will likely be a long appeals process before the team's owner starts to feel any financial impact. but this decision comes at a time when a growing course of individuals and institutions are stepping up and calling for the washington team owner dan snyder to change the name of his team. for years groups like the national congress of american indians a group that represents more than 250 tribes nationwide have other sports franchises to abandon the use of offensive names and icons. and in recent months, those groups have made tremendous headway in drawing attention to their cause. 50 members of the u.s. senate, including majority leader harry reid and even the president of the united states are now saying publicly that the team should change its name. yet dan snyder has stubbornly

refused to rename the team famously telling one newspaper "we'll never change the name. it's that simple. never." you can use caps. it seems little hopes left in appealing to mr. snyder's sense of reason or concern for those harmed, but maybe he should consider this. when the part of our government that approves things like three legged panty hose things you've gone too far, maybe it's time to have a seat. [ ship horn blows ] no, no, no! stop! humans. one day we're coming up with the theory of relativity, the next... not so much. but that's okay -- you're covered with great ideas like optional better car replacement from liberty mutual insurance. total your car and we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. learn about it at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? the numbers are impressive.y to new york state. over 400,000 new private sector jobs...

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jesse norman the grammy award winning grace the rarefied art of opera just released a memoir. in "stand up straight and sing" norman tells the tale of how she grew up into the iconic performer and person she is today. she takes reader in a journey from the prelude of her life as a child growing up in augusta, georgia, to the storeied concert

halls in germany and austria just to name a few of the many places that her legendary career has taken her. she brings us with her to the metropolitan opera. and then to her then to her role as judith in a rendition of on you bluebeard's castle and her performance in the opera's production of vaunger's paris fall. and even to our nation's capitol where she performed a stunning patriotic medley at the 1997 inauguration of president clinton. ♪ ♪ land of the pilgrim's pride ♪ from every mountainside ♪ let freedom ring >> and norman's legacy extends

beyond music. last year she joined a host of civil rights icons, and she was presented with the naacp's highest honor. joining me now to share her story with all of us is legendary jessie norman. so lovely to have you here. >> i'm delighted to be here. thank you. >> just before we went on air, you were talking about the difference of being on a book tour and having people relate to you from what they now know about you from what you've written. >> yes. it's been interesting and i find very different from being on a performance tour the questions that i am asked have so much do-to-do with my growing up years in augusta or my favorite role or something. and i found that to be really interesting. people need to understand that in spite of my growing up in the jim crow laws of the segregated south, that we had communities and families and extended families that made sure that we understood that we were people, that we were worth something,

and that we were love d. more than anything, that we were loved. >> this is so important to why we wanted you at the close of our show about parenting. we talk about parenting as two individuals in a household, but it is a whole process of community. >> it really is a whole process of community. and i know as we come cliched that it takes a village to raise a child, but i know from my own experience and those of my siblings and those of my friends growing up in augusta, georgia, that it truly does take a village to raise children. >> there's the obvious aspect of music in your childhood. >> yes. >> and not necessarily the music that you end up being the date performer of. tell me how music operated in your childhood. >> well, i had been singing since i've been speaking. i always say that because that's what my parents had told me. so i don't have any memory of not singing. and not being interested in music. and as young children, we were all sent off to piano lessons

with the local bpiano teacher i the neighborhood. and so that was something that we all did and took for granted, really. and of course, we were lucky in that period that we had arts education in the schools. and that is something for which i really am fighting because to allow another generation of children to come through public school education without the benefits of arts education is something of which we really should be uncomfortable. >> it feels to me that that language of stand up and sing -- >> yes, absolutely. >> -- is in part about racial pride, family pride, of community pride. >> of course. >> in addition to what happens to your voice, your political voice, your singing voice. >> of course, your social voice, your speaking voice, your everything voice, your ability to express yourself, whether that's in singing or playing the piano or writing poetry or being a graphic artist but being able to understand that you can speak from the inside out. that is what art does. >> there's a moment in the text

where you devote some conversation about marian anderson. >> yes. >> you write miss anderson had never considered herself to be an activist but in fact on that sunday morning she was. when i think about despite the pervasive prejudice she experienced, she did not allow hatred to dampen the song from within. i can only be grateful just by lifting her voice, she opened the doors and turned on the lights so the rest of us would be able to see our way more clearly. >> absolutely. and that's what she did. she wasn't thinking of herself that easter sunday morning, i'm sure, as being perhaps the first music protest ever, but it really was. because she had been denied, as we all know, singing in constitution hall by the daughters of the american revolution. and eleanor roosevelt and her husband decided that perhaps that wouldn't be something they would allow, that instead of singing for perhaps nearly 4,000 people in constitution hall, she would sing for 75,000 people on the steps of the memorial. and of course, being marian

anderson and this majestic, graceful woman, the first words out of her mouth, "my country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee we sing." >> when african-americans sing the song of america -- >> yes. >> -- sing the patriotic song, is it different? does it sound different? is it resonating with something that is specific to the black experience? >> i think it has to because we know that the black experience is different from the other experiences that other immigrants in this country might have had and might experienced on a daily basis. and i think that we need to sing these songs because we are a part of this country, and we need to say that loudly to ourselves and to anybody that's listening, that we, too, are americans. and we are as american as anybody that came over on the mayflower because actually we came first. >> if marian anderson turned on

the lights for so many, you continue to turn on those lights even nor thofor those of us who carry a tune. your presence, your internalism, your language, you talked about the arts but also language, i just love the book. >> thank you. >> and i love what it tells us about what a life can be. >> oh, you're so very kind. thank you very much. >> and you're not even close to done. there's so much more. >> oh, yeah. >> jessie norman, again, the book is called "stand up straight and sing." when you read it, it will make you want to stand a little taller. that's our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. i'm going to see you next saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern. right now it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex witt." hi, alex. >> why do i feel like we should have all stood up and started applauding? amazing. that was wonderful. thank you so much. well, six hours to go, everyone, before the u.s. takes on portugal in the world cup. now, there are two new problems that will make the competition that much harder. more adult children are moving in with mom after college. i'll speak with a member of the

boomerang generation about why this is happening to so many young people. plus in 1990, saddam hussein warned my next guest if the iraqi leader was ever taken out, iraq would plunge into war and chaos. i'll speak to ambassador joe wilson. don't go anywhere. i'll be right back. they lived. ♪ they lived. ♪ they lived. ♪ (dad) we lived... thanks to our subaru. ♪ (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

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make every day, her day with a full menu of appetizers and entrées crafted with care and designed to delight. fancy feast. love served daily. gaining ground. the militants in iraq keep winning battles. and while they threaten baghdad, there is a fear their terror may spill well beyond those borders. >> we need to build our intelligence to see that we can disrupt the plot in this country before it happens because there will be plots to kill americans. >> new alarm raised today by the head of the senate's intel committee with concern about containing threats to this country. why is u.s. soccer star hope solo behind bars at this hour? new details emerging today on her arrest. it promises to be a scorcher. the u.s.'s toughest opponent in today's big world cup match may not even be the other team.